Closed shops on Sundays
For a good portion of the year, most stores in Finland are completely closed on Sundays thanks to heavy government regulation. But they’re discussing about deregulation..
Many believe that the most workable of the recommendations is that the moderate deregulation of store opening hours will be continued. Sunday trading would be permitted for all retailers from May through to Christmas. Further liberation of opening hours could also be considered in some new areas, for instance the home furnishing, building supplies, and hardware trades.
The two extremes on the table were the restriction of opening hours from even the present situation and complete deregulation, with responsibility for when the stores’ doors are open passed completely to the retailers themselves.
I’ve never understood this – why the heck can’t all stores have the freedom to open their doors on Sundays? Are we still abiding by God’s rule to rest on the sabbath or something? Couldn’t the unemployed, part-timers, the poor or students get real boost by having the opportunity to work on Sundays?
This doesn’t affect us Helsinkians so much because in downtown Helsinki and in some other parts of the city there are quite a few stores with long opening hours on Sundays all year round.
Comment by Helsinkian — Thu, Jun 2nd, 2005 @ 5:01 pm
The current system is in place partly to give a chance to small shops. On a level playing fiel they have no way of competing with hyper markets. Now according to capitalism these stores should die, but practically speking it would suck. Then the closest shops would be these huge markets kilometers away from where people live.
Comment by Toveri — Thu, Jun 2nd, 2005 @ 5:04 pm
Which small shops are we talking about? Places like SIWA? What about all the other non-food small shops?
Comment by Phil — Thu, Jun 2nd, 2005 @ 5:10 pm
If memory serves, shops with floor area less than 400m^2 are considered small and are allowed to be open also on sundays. So most shops in the countryside fit in the category also.
BTW, Halpahalli here in Oulu advertises specially, that they are not open on sundays. It is probably a marketing argument amongst their regular customers, as I have noticed remarkable presence of christian literature along with the normal retail store stuff and the absence of keppana.
Comment by antti (the red neck one) — Thu, Jun 2nd, 2005 @ 6:46 pm
shops with floor area less than 400m^2 are considered small and are allowed to be open also on sundays.
It’s just so depressing to read another inane instance where the state feels it needs to intrude. Let shopowners decide what works best. Most shopowners like to take some days off, too, but they shouldn’t be penalized if they want to work.
remarkable presence of christian literature…
That struck me, too: that in some parts Finland, being closed for Sunday might be a selling point.
In the long run, – in the Nordic countries – there is a merging of socialist idealism and Christian sentimentality. The full effects and ramifications of this merging are not even fully understood in Scandinavia and Finland, where it is more often than not passed off as some sort of logic.
Comment by Finnpundit — Thu, Jun 2nd, 2005 @ 7:24 pm
At least it is bad as Germany (FRG) between 1956-1996 where shops could only open between 8-18 Mondays-Fridays and Saturdays 8-14 (except the first Saturday of the month 8-16 and the last 4 Saturdays until Chrismas) ! Even today shops can open until 0800-2000 Monday-Saturday.
Comment by Philip — Thu, Jun 2nd, 2005 @ 7:40 pm
It’s a good thing if “wal mart phenemenom” can be avoided; if small shops can survive, even if it means regulations. Not everyone has a car or is allowed to drive.
Comment by Tomi — Thu, Jun 2nd, 2005 @ 8:21 pm
shops with floor area less than 400m^2 are considered small and are allowed to be open also on sundays.
It’s just so depressing to read another inane instance where the state feels a need to intrude. Let shopowners and businesses decide what works best. Most shopowners like to take some days off, too, but they shouldn’t be penalized if they want to work and they have 500m2.
…remarkable presence of christian literature…
That struck me, too: that in some parts Finland, being closed for Sunday might be a selling point.
In the long run, – in the Nordic countries – there is a merging of socialist idealism and Christian sentimentality. The full effects and ramifications of this merging are not even fully understood in Scandinavia and Finland, where it is more often than not passed off as some sort of logic.
Comment by Finnpundit — Thu, Jun 2nd, 2005 @ 9:18 pm
It???s a good thing if ???wal mart phenemenom?? can be avoided
I already see that happening here in Finland. The Prismas, KKKKK-Citymarkets are taking over.
And what’s so bad about them anyway? They put everything in one store, it’s so convenient. I’m so busy nowadays, I don’t have time to shop at lots oof little stores constantly. I think Prismas and KKKK-Shitymarkets are progress.
Comment by Phil — Thu, Jun 2nd, 2005 @ 9:28 pm
Does anyone here ever rember working in such places? I do, it wasnt that long ago and when the opening hours are long and everyday like the UK ??? where I am from ??? it means your basically forced into work all your spare time with stupid shifts like 2pm-10pm (which becomes midnight and beyond almost eveytime) which in turn means one sleeps, wakes, goes to work goes hom and literally sleeps again. And there is little to do about it if you want to keep that job.
Shops being forced to close are a good thing for the people who work there, because they know they get that time off no questions….
However now I am on the side of the consumer, I sigh and beat my fists on the table when I forget the shop is closed and I need milk, so its all relative really.
Comment by John Evans — Thu, Jun 2nd, 2005 @ 10:19 pm
And what???s so bad about them anyway? They put everything in one store, it???s so convenient. I???m so busy nowadays, I don???t have time to shop at lots oof little stores constantly. I think Prismas and KKKK-Shitymarkets are progress.
The do not encourage people to start companies (or stores) of their own, because individuals simply can’t compete against the giants. I consider that to be a problem. Prismas and Citymarkets have already driven many smaller markets out of business.
Soon you’ll be driving a Volvo Station Wagon and visiting Iso Omena or Sello on your way to your rivitalo flat in Espoo, if you think that supermarkets are a good thing… and you can’t even remember when was the last time you were in downtown Helsinki.
Comment by Pete — Thu, Jun 2nd, 2005 @ 10:31 pm
I do remember working in such places. They certainly gave you incentive to move on and improve your lot. And they taught you discipline, in terms of putting up with things you don’t like. And they fueled a constantly mobile workforce that makes for a dynamic economy that can better adapt to change and disruption than any welfare state.
As to being forced to work with no questions, at the rate of labor turnover (at least in America) after a while management learns the diminishing rate of return for running your workforce ragged, and realizes that it’s worth giving people a rest. Again, the markets are the best regulators. (Ironically, the worst abuse happens in all the jobs that are high-paying and popular: IT, media industries, etc.)
And as to beating your fists on the counter: in the end, the success of the western world has been due to the fact that the consumer receives priority over the worker. This lesson is totally lost in the welfare states of Europe.
Comment by Finnpundit — Thu, Jun 2nd, 2005 @ 10:46 pm
I could not care less when the shops are opened or not, but Phil’s opinion about ???wal mart phenemenom?? deserves a comment.
“And what???s so bad about them anyway? They put everything in one store, it???s so convenient.”
I live in a small town and the closest shop is 500 meters away. I can get almost everything what I need from there, good service, high quality products etc. OK, the prices are higher than in Shitymarket or Prisma, but they are 5 kilometers away.
I don’t need much for my one person household and I don’t care if I have to pay 50 cents more for one kilo of meat or packet of coffee. In my local grocery I don’t need to walk the long corridors to the very end of the market where all the food is and I don’t have to wait 15 minutes to pay my modest shopping. In my local shop, the shopkeeper also prepares my meat in any way I ask him. I prefer this compared to food wrapped in plastic in the big markets. (OK, they have somekind of service in markets also, but not in the evenings nor sundays).
Comment by Anonymous — Thu, Jun 2nd, 2005 @ 10:53 pm
Both the Lutheran and the Orthodox Church have always vehemently opposed open shops on Sundays.
Comment by Erik — Thu, Jun 2nd, 2005 @ 11:34 pm
I would just like to provide some insite into my experience with de-regulating Sunday operation of retail stores in the United States. It use to be similar to your situation many years ago, on Sunday most retail stores were closed. Then the arguments started that this was religious interference with freedoms. So eventually all Sunday restrictions have been removed in most places in the United States. So I look back and see we use to have at least one day off for everyone. Now you get to work all the time, no days off, but you get to buy more junk on Sundays! So be careful what you ask for, you might just get it! So you see, Gods just trying to help you out, but humans just can’t take a hint. Enjoy your Sundays while you have em.
Comment by Mike Trantham — Fri, Jun 3rd, 2005 @ 4:44 am
Soon you???ll be driving a Volvo Station Wagon and visiting Iso Omena or Sello on your way to your rivitalo flat in Espoo, if you think that supermarkets are a good thing??¦ and you can???t even remember when was the last time you were in downtown Helsinki
Heh, that’s exactly what’s happening right now!
Comment by Phil — Fri, Jun 3rd, 2005 @ 7:16 am
Even with complete market deregulation of hours, most stores are not going to be open passed 8-9pm. Yeah, if you decide to work in the restaurant business, you’re gonna get some weird hours, but you knew that going into it.
Plus there’s plenty of people who like these evening shifts. When I was a student it was a neccesity because I had classes during the day. If it wasn’t for my Sunday work and late evening work…I’d have been broke!!
Comment by Phil — Fri, Jun 3rd, 2005 @ 7:20 am
I don???t need much for my one person household and I don???t care if I have to pay 50 cents more for one kilo of meat or packet of coffee. In my local grocery I don???t need to walk the long corridors to the very end of the market where all the food is and I don???t have to wait 15 minutes to pay my modest shopping. In my local shop, the shopkeeper also prepares my meat in any way I ask him. I prefer this compared to food wrapped in plastic in the big markets. (OK, they have somekind of service in markets also, but not in the evenings nor sundays).
Are you worried that your store would be replaced by a Wal-Mart style store like Prisma & Shitymarket?
Comment by Phil — Fri, Jun 3rd, 2005 @ 7:23 am
Now you get to work all the time, no days off, but you get to buy more junk on Sundays!
Yeah but we all work the same 37.5 hours a week. So, if you work Sundays, you’ll instead have another day off during the week.
And what about those who want to work on Sundays – or better yet, who NEED to work Sundays??
Comment by Phil — Fri, Jun 3rd, 2005 @ 7:26 am
You have 6 days a week to buy food. It’s just one day. It’s not that hard to remember to buy groceries before that. And if the shops could be open whenever they wanted to, every shop would have to be open almost 24/7. It would be suicide for a shop not to be open after that. Thus they would be deprived of the freedom of choise.
Btw. I don’t have a car. I can’t afford it. I don’t even have a license. It would really piss me off if I had to walk more than 2km with heavy groceries.
Comment by Heidi — Fri, Jun 3rd, 2005 @ 10:06 am
And if the shops could be open whenever they wanted to, every shop would have to be open almost 24/7
No way.
Comment by Phil — Fri, Jun 3rd, 2005 @ 10:22 am
Btw. I don???t have a car. I can???t afford it. I don???t even have a license. It would really piss me off if I had to walk more than 2km with heavy groceries.
To say that all little stores will die just because others are free to open on Sundays is just false.
Remember, there’s alot more types of little stores out there other than grocery stores.
Comment by Phil — Fri, Jun 3rd, 2005 @ 10:24 am
“And if the shops could be open whenever they wanted to, every shop would have to be open almost 24/7″
“No way.”
“It would be suicide for a shop not to be open after that. Thus they would be deprived of the freedom of choise.”
Now we are depriving the freedom of choise from those who want to keep their shops open on sundays. It just a matter of whose side you’re on. I’m on those side whose life doesn’t revolve around work.
Comment by Heidi — Fri, Jun 3rd, 2005 @ 10:50 am
Soon you???ll be driving a Volvo Station Wagon and visiting Iso Omena or Sello on your way to your rivitalo flat in Espoo, if you think that supermarkets are a good thing??¦ and you can???t even remember when was the last time you were in downtown Helsinki
Phil:
Heh, that???s exactly what???s happening right now!
Yeah, and that’s what the regulation is trying to prevent from happening.
I remember the times when there was a grocery shop every 500 meters or so, like in Greece or Italy nowadays, and even Britain. What’s the difference?
Econimically it may be wasteful to make the people to be forced to shop in those big markets – everybody allowed to drive a car must buy a car, and the rest has to fed somehow, anyway.
The American way is not our way in this case, hopefully.
(Let’s see if I remembered how the HTML-codes work …)
Comment by Tomi — Fri, Jun 3rd, 2005 @ 11:03 am
Yeah, and that???s what the regulation is trying to prevent from happening.
Why? Fuck going downtown. Parking is too expensive. I live and work in Epsoo, might as well shop in Espoo too!
Econimically it may be wasteful to make the people to be forced to shop in those big markets – everybody allowed to drive a car must buy a car, and the rest has to fed somehow, anyway.
People who don’t have cars tend to live in more crowded areas. Crowded have and will always have these smaller shops. Opening Prisma on a Sunday for a few extra months a year ain’t going to change that.
The American way is not our way in this case, hopefully.
America? Huh? Even in the states they have strict laws on Sunday openings.
Comment by Phil — Fri, Jun 3rd, 2005 @ 11:51 am
“Are you worried that your store would be replaced by a Wal-Mart style store like Prisma & Shitymarket?”
No, I am just worried how a small family shop can compete with Prisma’s and KKK’s if opening hours are completely free.
You could say that economy should be completely free. OK, just tell me one free market area in the world? If there is any regulations at all, the markets are not free.
Completely free markets doesn’t regulate the location of shops nor what they sell. So let’s build Wall Mart in the middle of Philadelphia and tear down the old town from its way. Let’s also allow any shop to sell anything they want to. Free markets do not make restrictions, the customers know best.
So what’s all the fuzz about opening hours?
Comment by Anonymous — Fri, Jun 3rd, 2005 @ 12:07 pm
You could say that economy should be completely free. OK, just tell me one free market area in the world? If there is any regulations at all, the markets are not free.
Dunno. How about the blogosphere?
So let???s build Wall Mart in the middle of Philadelphia and tear down the old town from its way.
But if that were to happen, wouldn’t that be the consumer’s choice? If consumers really wanted to goto smaller, older stores – they would. But they often choose bigger stores instead. It’s the people’s choice!
Comment by Phil — Fri, Jun 3rd, 2005 @ 12:15 pm
“Woudn’t that be a consumer’s choice”.
Now you have a point! Yeah, sure it would be. But the whole issue is that should society always work according to consumer’s (read majority’s choice) choice? And more important, should it work accoriding to choice of those who have all the money? That would leave the majority without a choice.
But as I wrote earlier, when it comes to opening hours I coudn’t care less.
Comment by P — Fri, Jun 3rd, 2005 @ 1:36 pm
But the whole issue is that should society always work according to consumer???s (read majority???s choice) choice?
Well it’s either them or the politicians – I trust the consumer’s judgement more.
Comment by Phil — Fri, Jun 3rd, 2005 @ 2:10 pm
So majority is always right?
Neither do I always trust the politicians, but being Finnish, I trust them more than the majority (and specially big money) on many issues.
But we can argue about this till the end of our life and we probably would not totally agree. I could give you examples of majority’s stupidity and you could give me examples of government pribery and stupidity, but that would lead nowhere. Both the government and media (=money) can manipulate majority to believe almost to anything. So who is right after all? The people who believe in crab or the manipulators.
So let’s continue working (9 to 5 for me) and enjoy the weekend.
Comment by P — Fri, Jun 3rd, 2005 @ 2:58 pm
Why? Fuck going downtown. Parking is too expensive. I live and work in Epsoo, might as well shop in Espoo too!
Excuses, excuses…
Drive to Ruoholahti mall, park your car there for free for three hours and then take a metro to downtown.
Comment by Pete — Fri, Jun 3rd, 2005 @ 2:59 pm
You are talking about Sundays,What about all other “religious holidays”in Finland,that the stores are forced to be closed.What about people who are not religious,maybe they want to work during those holidays or maybe even go shopping.Stores open 24/7 that is soo convenient,I love it.
Comment by Satu — Fri, Jun 3rd, 2005 @ 4:40 pm
The volume of the sales isn’t going to increase because there’s one more sales day per week. More workers aren’t needed. So, your weird “job creationism” arguments don’t work here. Instead, it’d only cause unusual work schedules for sales people. In effect, pain for no gain.
It’s annoying that the shop is closed when you’re out of milk, for example, but that’s not really the shop’s fault that you forgot.
Comment by sepisp — Fri, Jun 3rd, 2005 @ 5:13 pm
Three individuals – the employer, employee, and consumer all won’t to work together. A consumer wants to shop on Sundays, an employee wants to work on Sundays, and an employer wants to opens its doors on Sunday. Everybody should be happy, right? No…some left-winger wants to close the store doors, force the employee to go without work and money, and dictate what the consumer should do on their Sundays. That’s statism and it makes me ill.
Comment by Phil — Fri, Jun 3rd, 2005 @ 5:13 pm
The volume of the sales isn???t going to increase because there???s one more sales day per week.
Huh?? Come again?
Comment by Phil — Fri, Jun 3rd, 2005 @ 5:21 pm
Phil: You only work 37.5 hrs a week? WTF?
Comment by Matt — Fri, Jun 3rd, 2005 @ 6:51 pm
Phil: You only work 37.5 hrs a week? WTF?
Isn’t that the standard work week in this country?
Comment by Phil — Fri, Jun 3rd, 2005 @ 8:53 pm
People aren’t going to start shitting more, because you sell toilet papers on Sundays.
Comment by sepisp — Sat, Jun 4th, 2005 @ 12:32 am
“Well it???s either them or the politicians – I trust the consumer???s judgement more.”
So politicians aren’t cosumers?
Comment by Thomas — Sat, Jun 4th, 2005 @ 5:29 pm
“I???ve never understood this – why the heck can???t all stores have the freedom to open their doors on Sundays? Are we still abiding by God???s rule to rest on the sabbath or something? Couldn???t the unemployed, part-timers, the poor or students get real boost by having the opportunity to work on Sundays?”
Phil.
There seems to be a LOT you don’t understand.(Nevertheless you blog about Finnish matters, as IF YOU WOULD – that is UNDERSTAND things).
You write as if NOTHING would change IF shops were open om Sunday’s. But let’s assume, that they were given the freedom to be open on sundays. Let’s further assume that NO already employed workers would work on sundays. Let’s ALSO assume that they would not be kicked out (and their salaries would be the same as before), AND could work AS MUCH as before (this is in line with your ridiculous “claims”, that allowing shops to be freely open on sundays, would – seemingly – ONLY affect unemployed, students etc.). HOW many shops WOULD be open on sundays? Would people buy MORE (totally)?
Recently there was a couple of articles in Helsingin Sanomat, which gave the picture that restaurants (i.e. not pubs), are NOT open on sundays, even if they have the right.
Maybe (?) you UNDERSTAND a bit more if you think about it this way. But I don’t have high hopes. Sorry.
Comment by Thomas — Sat, Jun 4th, 2005 @ 6:49 pm
Why would you not work on Sundays,you’ll get all extras on your salary,like you do working evenings and nights.Why woudn’t you shop on Sundays,you have been working all week,maybe Sunday is the only day you can go and buy what you need ,not in a stress like after work day,hurrying to get home.Maybe the lines and rush in the stores after 4 or 5,during weekdays, will be less.You do not have to buy everything for the weekend then and there.Let us open the stores for Sundays,if you do not want to,you don’t have to.Let the owner of that corner store deside by them selves,with out restricting laws.
Comment by Satu — Sun, Jun 5th, 2005 @ 8:48 am
And Thomas,DO NOT assume too much.If the laws change,even you will be in the store/stores buying stuff Sundays,I’ll guarantee IT.
Comment by Satu — Sun, Jun 5th, 2005 @ 9:16 am
Maybe (?) you UNDERSTAND a bit more if you think about it this way. But I don???t have high hopes. Sorry.
Huh? No, that post didn’t help me understand anything, it only confused me a bit. What do you mean?
Comment by Phil — Sun, Jun 5th, 2005 @ 1:26 pm
Satu and Phil.
I think that stores selling food/groceries have a certain market, which cannot be extended very much. People will by the food they need, when shops are open. If shops are open 24 hrs, 7 days per week it adds conveniance for customers, BUT THE MARKET WILL NOT EXPAND. This means that costs (salaries) for shops will increase, but sales will not increase proportianally with costs.
Now if you think about it this way, maybe this explains something?
In practise, the effect will be something of the following:
* Higher prices (to cover for additional costs)
* Shops WILL NOT be open at such hours when it is not profitable, thus making sure that the idea about de-regulation will give consumers more freedom of choice, in fact turns out to be the opposite. This will also affect the working hours of people already employed.
* Salaries will go down (to cover for additional costs)
Get it?
Comment by Thomas — Sun, Jun 5th, 2005 @ 2:52 pm
“And Thomas,DO NOT assume too much.If the laws change,even you will be in the store/stores buying stuff Sundays,I???ll guarantee IT.”
What are you trying to prove? I’ll go to the shop today (like numerous other sundays before), but that does not mean that I wouldn’t have bought the stuff I buy today, already yesterday if the shop hadn’t been open today. Get it?
Comment by Thomas — Sun, Jun 5th, 2005 @ 2:57 pm
“BUT THE MARKET WILL NOT EXPAND”
Well, I guess you’re only talking about grocery stores here – The market will most certainly expand. People do more grocery shopping than just their once a week visit. If the store is open, I often pick up crap I normally wouldn’t buy on my weekly visit.
* Higher prices (to cover for additional costs)
That’s assuming the market won’t expand at all. And even if that was true, I wouldn’t mind paying a little extra to shop on Sundays. I’m so damn busy during the week, and I never want to do shopping on Saturday, Sundays would be ideal! (in fact I’m heading to Prisma today, I think it will be a Sunday tradition until they close again)
* Shops WILL NOT be open at such hours when it is not profitable, thus making sure that the idea about de-regulation will give consumers more freedom of choice, in fact turns out to be the opposite. This will also affect the working hours of people already employed.
Well Tuesdays at 3pm aren’t all that profitable, but they’re still open. So your argument is valid. And if it affects the working hours of the people already employed, I’m sure they could say “I’m not working Sundays” – of course some people will welcome the extra hours, and the stores might have to hire more people and lowe the unemployment rate.
* Salaries will go down (to cover for additional costs)
Again, you’re assuming the market won’t expand.
Comment by Phil — Sun, Jun 5th, 2005 @ 3:31 pm
What are you trying to prove? I???ll go to the shop today (like numerous other sundays before), but that does not mean that I wouldn???t have bought the stuff I buy today, already yesterday if the shop hadn???t been open today. Get it?
Don’t you kinda consider yourself a hyrpocrite? You’re against shopping on Sundays, yet you go shopping on Sundays. Why not boycott Sunday shopping and if enough of you statists boycott together, the shops will be forced to keep the doors closed on Sundays (and lay off alot of people too).
Comment by Phil — Sun, Jun 5th, 2005 @ 3:33 pm
What are you trying to prove? I???ll go to the shop today (like numerous other sundays before), but that does not mean that I wouldn???t have bought the stuff I buy today, already yesterday if the shop hadn???t been open today. Get it?
Don’t you kinda consider yourself a hyrpocrite? You’re against shopping on Sundays, yet you go shopping on Sundays. Why not boycott Sunday shopping and if enough of you statists boycott together, the shops will be forced to keep the doors closed on Sundays (and lay off alot of people too).
Comment by Phil — Sun, Jun 5th, 2005 @ 3:33 pm
“Don???t you kinda consider yourself a hyrpocrite? You???re against shopping on Sundays, yet you go shopping on Sundays. Why not boycott Sunday shopping and if enough of you statists boycott together, the shops will be forced to keep the doors closed on Sundays (and lay off alot of people too).”
Don’t you consider yourself an idiot, since I never said I was against shopping on Sundays. If you claim this, show me the proof.
Comment by Thomas — Thu, Jun 9th, 2005 @ 11:05 pm
Well you’re against the shops being open on Sundays, right? Or were you just playing devil’s advocate in the comments above?
Comment by Phil — Thu, Jun 9th, 2005 @ 11:36 pm
“If the store is open, I often pick up crap I normally wouldn???t buy on my weekly visit.”
You’re NOT a rational consumer in that case. Rational consumers is what all mainstream economics is based upon.
“That???s assuming the market won???t expand at all. And even if that was true, I wouldn???t mind paying a little extra to shop on Sundays. I???m so damn busy during the week, and I never want to do shopping on Saturday, Sundays would be ideal! (in fact I???m heading to Prisma today, I think it will be a Sunday tradition until they close again)”
How much do you think markets would expand by having shops open on sundays? What would be the HIT on sundays, that wouldn’t have a market on mondays-saturdays? And how big an impact would it have? 15% or more likely 25% (which would be needed to cover up for extra pays for sunday working)? I don’t think you can prove this.
What is it you are shopping on sundays in Prisma? In any case, I think you should know that shops wouldn’t operate based on what Phil thinks is the right way (even though he happens to be from America), but rather what the majority thinks. If the majority would think differently than you, you would still be here complaining. And most things you possibly can’t buy on sundays, can be bought at ANY time on the internet, for a modest extra price (which you said you we’re willing to pay). So what are you complaining about really?
“And if it affects the working hours of the people already employed, I???m sure they could say ???I???m not working Sundays?? – of course some people will welcome the extra hours, and the stores might have to hire more people and lowe the unemployment rate.”
Yeah, it would surely affect the UNEMPLOYMENT RATE greatly if shopkeepers would hire people for just sundays. Wow, the unemployment problem has been solved by Phil. Try to get a clue, will you.
Comment by Thomas — Thu, Jun 9th, 2005 @ 11:37 pm
“Well you???re against the shops being open on Sundays, right? Or were you just playing devil???s advocate in the comments above?”
You claimed I WAS AGAINST “shops being open on Sundays”. Now you’re ASKING whether I am against it. That’s improvement, now you’re thinking even a LITTLE before writing.
My answer is, look at what I wrote, the answer “is out there”, all you need to know. I have not (in this discussion) taken ANY point for or against. This should be obvious to anyone with any clue of the english language.
I’m not, however going to take a stand in ANY way. But I do not have any problems PER SE with shopping on sundays.
Comment by Thomas — Thu, Jun 9th, 2005 @ 11:47 pm
I???m not, however going to take a stand in ANY way
Good idea, it’s always safer that way.
Comment by Phil — Thu, Jun 9th, 2005 @ 11:53 pm
You???re NOT a rational consumer in that case. Rational consumers is what all mainstream economics is based upon.
You think? So the majority of people only do their grocery shopping once a week?
How much do you think markets would expand by having shops open on sundays?
Good question. They’re open for a few months a year on Sundays now, I’m sure we could find that data.
In any case, I think you should know that shops wouldn???t operate based on what Phil thinks is the right way
Not at all!! I think the SHOPS THEMSELVES should decide how they operate.
but rather what the majority thinks.
51% of the population should not have the right to decide when some shop opens their door.
So what are you complaining about really?
Shops not being allowed to open on Sundays.
Wow, the unemployment problem has been solved by Phil.
I never claimed it would solve it, only help it.
You’re very dramatic with your posts today!
Comment by Phil — Thu, Jun 9th, 2005 @ 11:58 pm
“You think? So the majority of people only do their grocery shopping once a week?”
No. Like any other sane person I THINK they do it at any time they please. I’ve never claimed anything to the opposite. Where do you get this “once a week” idea from?
“Good question. They???re open for a few months a year on Sundays now, I???m sure we could find that data.”
Go get it? But keep in mind that it should cover the full year, and all kind of commodities.
“Not at all!! I think the SHOPS THEMSELVES should decide how they operate.”
If the “SHOPS THEMSELVES should decide” that would probably mean that if you wanted service on some other time than the majoritys preferred time, you would have to go to some special shop far away from where you live. Not much different from Phil’s original complaint, right?
Comment by Thomas — Fri, Jun 10th, 2005 @ 1:02 am
No. Like any other sane person I THINK they do it at any time they please. I???ve never claimed anything to the opposite. Where do you get this ???once a week?? idea from?
I shouldn’t say “once a week”, I mean “on a regular interval, without getting a few spur-of-the-moment things inbetween”
If the ???SHOPS THEMSELVES should decide?? that would probably mean that if you wanted service on some other time than the majoritys preferred time,
No way. The majority has no preferred time, the public spread themselves out over the 60+ hours a week the store is open. At it’s highest point, I’m sure only 1% of a store’s shoppers are actually in the store.
Comment by Phil — Fri, Jun 10th, 2005 @ 8:06 am
“No way. The majority has no preferred time, the public spread themselves out over the 60+ hours a week the store is open. At it???s highest point, I???m sure only 1% of a store???s shoppers are actually in the store.”
At the HIGHEST point only 1% is in the shop? What are you trying to say? Is this libertarian logic at its peak yet another time? What do these WISDOM WORDS of yours actually say about the fact that IF shops were open freely, THEN they would ALL be open at the same times (to maxize profit). These would not be the times a consumer with preferences differing from the norm would like. Is this too hard to understand for a libertarially oriented person, or?
Comment by Thomas — Sat, Jul 2nd, 2005 @ 8:53 pm
At the HIGHEST point only 1% is in the shop? What are you trying to say? Is this libertarian logic at its peak yet another time? What do these WISDOM WORDS of yours actually say about the fact that IF shops were open freely, THEN they would ALL be open at the same times (to maxize profit). These would not be the times a consumer with preferences differing from the norm would like. Is this too hard to understand for a libertarially oriented person, or?
Well there are much more liberal opening laws in the U.S. – and this hasn’t happened? I wonder why not? If you can’t figure it out, you might want to take Economics 101 over again.
Comment by Phil — Mon, Jul 4th, 2005 @ 12:14 am
“Well there are much more liberal opening laws in the U.S. – and this hasn???t happened? I wonder why not? If you can???t figure it out, you might want to take Economics 101 over again.”
Either shop owners in the U.S. do not follow the teachings of “Economics 101″ or “Economics 101″ is wrong. In the latter case, your ideas about libertarianism also fall down, since the whole idea of market (libertarian) economics being effective is based on the ideas taught in “Economics 101″.
Why would shop owners, rational as they are (that’s according to Economics 101) keep their shops open if it isn’t worthwhile? Can you, as you are so extremely knowledgeable tell me why it would be sensible to keep a shop open – if labor costs are larger than profits?
Lets make this simple. Let’s assume that shops have previously been allowed to be open from 8 to 16. Now we set it free. So everybody is open 24 hrs? If that would be the case, then what would be the win for the shopkeepers. If sales would rise 300% o.k., but what if not? I’m sure sales wouldn’t rise by 300%. If they rise at all, that’s interesting. Now think about this in terms of costs to the shopkeeper (remember according to Economics 101 – which you seem to be a master of – the shopkeepers own effort is a cost too). At least three times in salary (if you assume that shops are run by the same arsenal of personnel at all hours). If the shop doesnot selll more goods, bankrupcy is imminent. What are the choices? Stay open only at hours which are interesting to customers, cut wages, or raise prices. This is Economics 101, but you have still not got it.
Are you stupid? Or why is this simple thing a problem to you?
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Comment by stephen — Tue, Jul 19th, 2005 @ 7:49 am
Hi:
I live in Southern California where there are is regulation of store hours. While there are a few 24 hour super markets most big stores close at 9 PM Monday to Saturday and at 7PM on Sunday. There are still many small businesses that only open Monday to Friday from 8 AM to 5 PM. However, the freedom of hours has generated thousands of parttime jobs ideal for students and other people who need a second job to get by. And I do like to shop on Sunday afternoon as I am too busy on Saturday.
I lived in Canada when they deregulated store hours and the arguement was two fold. Separation of church and state.
Freedom to do what you want as long as it was not fraudulent or proven harmful to society.
Comment by Dan Fraser — Sun, Oct 23rd, 2005 @ 10:37 pm
Oops. There is NO regulation of store hours in California.
Comment by Dan Fraser — Sun, Oct 23rd, 2005 @ 10:38 pm
it is fucking to useless to argue whether the market will expand if the shops are open on sundays. Seriously I do not care about the market expanding or whether it is beneficial to employees or not. I do care about business owners being able to work when they want to. If you feel that you don’t need to shop on sundays, by all means do not shop on sundays but do not impose your preference of not shopping on sundays to other people who would rather do otherwise. Seriously if you believe that the market will not expand if shops opened on sundays, then it makes no difference if an individual store owner decides to open, does it? I think it is up to business owners to decide the cost effectiveness of opening on sundays and not the state. It is really amazing to read the self-righteousness comments, the comments range from it helps the little guy, or forces people to take take a day of rest, or how we care so much about the well being of employees, yep we need the state now to babysit us on what is good and bad for us. To which I say bullshit, it is fine you feel that way, people need to be able decide for themselves how they want to live, and not have the nanny state telling them, “see now, you need a day of rest, so you can’t work on sundays”
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Comment by Jeremy — Fri, Feb 9th, 2007 @ 8:40 am
I think finland government is more active in making decision on behalf of every body and like good puppy people accept them, market should be consumer driven and for consumer ONLY , take for instance there is no need for TV or dog tax , but all cold hearted finns accept what ever shit govt throw at them, look at the alko prices shooting up all , basically finland govt SUCKs, another example for height of cruelty haircut prices , finnish govt reduced VAT for them and they increased the prices, how can one justify paying 25 euros for a damm haircut, look at the petrol prices are sky rocketing, its govt says shit finns shit ,
Comment by ASD — Mon, Feb 25th, 2008 @ 3:46 pm