Look, the new political will says squach any non arab agenda’s. Why here in the usa we no longer have a War On Terror. I don’t know what it is, what the goals are, so I guess the arabs won.

Oh and we have a new Vietnam war. More troups to a war zone as targets.

Wow who the frack voted this guy in. I can’t find anyone willing to admit to it here in Maryland.

The “War on Terror” was a grand farce any way you look at it, but it allowed the world’s central banking and war industry elites to get rich from American tax monies. As for the Arabs, they were of course needed as scapegoats to keep Americans from noticing the scam.

It’s kind of sad really, that no matter who you vote for in America – Democrats or Republicans – your choice is limited to pre-bought candidates. Bush, Clinton, Obama and Gore are all the same. Only superficial differences exist between them.

The central banking and war industry elites win in each case.

This is a farce. The good thing is that I don’t believe any self-respecting judge entertaining at least partial sanity would entertain the notion of actually convicting H-A for a second.

Because of the passages and text containing them chosen by the prosecutor there’s a direct parallel here with any and all blasphemy cases in recent history. This is now simply about how state of Finland wants to be seen in terms of free speech and thought policing.

Furthermore I think all of these special protection laws need to be called into question. They do and protect nothing that the normal laws of society would not protect already. The whole notion of such laws apparently comes from the moral panic caused by the nazis decades ago. Its time to let go, or then aim right.
The only really big mass graves in finland were produced because of political agitation on the left-right axis. So if something needs to be banned from the written word it is political opinions (which provenly lead to massive violence and misery).

There are so many strange individuals belonging to the the ‘True Finns’ political menagerie that these cases will come up again and again. Halla-aho isn’t the only ‘True Finn’ to be a little bit looney.
The silence of the mainstream parties on the issue of immigration is what is fuel to this particular fire and someone from the mainstream should come out and say the following:

1. Finland will never be multi-cultural. That is a fact. Look up what it means to be multi-cultural and then you can understand that Finland would never be multi-cultural. Stone cold fact it ain’t gonna happen.
2. Say that you want educated immigrants only. Say also that you have a humanitarian responsibility to accept refugees. Set limits and quotas – isn’t this done already? Publicize the fact.
3. Say that language training and integration will be stepped up and that limits will be placed on the number of immigrants based on job skills and language skills. Introduce a points system – like Canada and Australia.
So then that’s it. Debate about immigration over.
Now lets move on to Soini’s crackpot idea that Finland should not be part of the EU. Well this shows Perussuomalaiset’s real weakness. PS are stronger now because they are vocal on immigration. If the main parties come out with a strong stance then this weakens PS position and the loonies will disappear from the headlines.

“2. Say that you want educated immigrants only. Say also that you have a humanitarian responsibility to accept refugees. Set limits and quotas – isn’t this done already? Publicize the fact.”

The problem is that this isn’t done yet, actually it is opposite of this. New immigration law states that every asulym seeker that comes from a country that has war or weak human rights situation will be granted asulym. So there is no quotas or limits at all.

Incoherent Writing 101

#3 The thing is regarding Finnish Judges
a) The whole system is rotten with DEMLA lawyers and old comrades.
b) Finland has gotten recently a half dozen or so cases back from the European Court on freedom of speech issues.

#4 Yeah, Andy thats the thing up there in the lawbooks and the rules and regulations – the problem is the facts whats happening says something totally different. The rules are not followed. Meanwhile the people benefitting of all this are taking the money and running – they’re only after their own interest.

What I am worried about is that while the politicians are thumb-in-arse the situation will boil over and then we’ll be in interesting times.

What comes to PS – Soinis change of coat was in the best possible style of old Kepuesque politicians. He was just in January making huge statements of how his conscience won’t allow him to enter the EU race etc. Halla-aho BTW is not a card-holding PS member, but an idependent.

Here is a speech by Hank W.’s mentor and guide for politically correct
free speech:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxtN0xxzfsw

9# HAHAHAA, a good one.

#4 I do not find Halla-aho looney. Not even racist, more a “culturist”, if there were such a word. He is smart and he is eloquently showing inconsistencies in the Finnish power structure. That’s why he is such a threat and pain to the elite. They so wish he were an ill-behaving simpleton, but annoyingly he is well-behaving and articulate.

About the racism / culturism: I haven’t read all Halla-aho’s writings, but to me the thrust of his texts seems to be stressing the idea that we — the ethnic Finns — should stick consistently to our stated values and laws and apply those equally to everybody, and not have different rules for different ethnic or social groups. I personally do not find that such a bad idea.

Unfortunately we Finns tend to be loyal to the currently strongest party, not loyal to the values.

Answer to #4

Labeling Halla-aho a loon shows a gross ignorance of the point he was conveying to the Finnish government’s Ombudsman for Minorities.

I enjoyed your text. It would be great if a foreigner with some status were to criticize the finnish Penal Code for it’s bigotry. So much of what we Finns are spiritually still reminds me of the “good” old times when we were a Soviet semi-satellite. However, we are particularily sensitive to being criticized from the outside. If a foreigner (preferrably an american) were to criticize our Penal system in a newspaper and at the end wonder if it would be safe for him to ponder aloud whether or not finns are drunk wifebeaters who were still living in forests a few hundred years ago.

#12 Then again of the PS people – “Veltto” could be described somewhat of a loon. After all we remember his “Colorful party” and the issue of his beret. But even being a village eccentric – he is educated – and if you look at his speeches hes made some quite valid points over the years.

#13 Well there is Freddy van Woltergehem (hope I got it right, he is almost as bad as Zysse to spell in a hurry) running now to EU on the PS ticket. Don’t know if hes addressed this case, but hes got a blog in US and some stuff on his own pages. And he’s not one of your hush-hush type either.

Guys got a good election slogan “Send Freddy back home” (hes Belgian)

Suomi needs many more ***FINN-PATRIOTS*** like Jussi Halla-Aho..
Suomi needs to defend itself against those who would swamp Suomi culture and traditions…There are to many Finns blinded by political correctness and multiculturalism…they are the ***FIFTH COLUMN***
that will seek to destroy Finland from within,along with the remnant
fellow travelers of the ***EVIL PUTIN COMMIE KGB***.

You said penal – hihi

@ 11 and 12 – Hallo-aho has written many things in his blog that a reasonable, well-educated person might find a bit looney.

Here is what is reported on YLE :
”The True Finns councillor allegedly wrote that Islam and its religious institutions were linked to paedophilia. The blog also reportedly suggested that the tendency to mug passerby and to live off of state benefits were characteristics of particular nationalities or genetic groups. The charges are to be laid in Helsinki District Court.”

For an elected politician in a Western European society to come out with these views and to to publicize them – promote them even – is definitely strange indeed. In my book, after a careful consideration of the facts, I would say Hallo-aho is a bit of a loon.

@Mara #11 H-A is not smart and eloquent. I have taken the time to read one lengthy piece of him and after a promising start, he started writing stupid claims and accusations. Like you expect from a red neck hick. Not from a smart person.

So I am disappointed a bit.

I also feel that certain immigrant groups claim a certain treatment and rights based on their religion (and call it their culture). You see that happening in central Europe, but not so much in Finland… yet. It’s all in the numbers, so it might still happen. But Finland is also not prepared for this, so it would be good if we could have smart politicians that are able to say in normal wordings that not everything that immigrants call their culture is accepted, since it goes against our (Finnish, western) values, regardless if that culture is based on whatever religion.

I think it’s really sad that Illman had to swallow the obvious bait, when there is a great deal of far more serious shit on Hullu-uho’s blog.

#18 Andy,IMO his point in that text was that we cannot have our cake and eat it too, even by claiming to be living a religious life or a different culture. I.e. we cannot say things like “having sex with a child is universally immoral unless the man happens to be a devout muslim.” Referring to that principle he then cites the fact that Mohammed married a child and consummated the marriage when the wife was nine years old.

That text you quoted was a deliberately built part of a logical sequence, where H-A demonstrated that relativism in morals and legal code — which he addresses as “multiculturalism” — leads to logical impossibility and practical unequality in front of the law.

Whether it is politically advantageous to write such texts is another matter. His strategy to advance his arguments to their logical endpoints and to write them up on his blog seems a bit revolutionary and definitely contrarian. But I still would not call him a looney.

#19 Majava, I haven’t read all his texts, so I cannot comment on your red neck hick -impression. You seem to agree with his point but still not like him making it?

18. Andy,

The quoted parts have been taken out of the context. It’s the favorite hobby of the main stream finnish media at the moment. Defaming Halla-aho and the ‘True Finn’ party that is. Both of the quotes are from the blog article dedicated to Mika Illman, with purpose of proving the inequality between the finnish and the others, in favor of the latter.

Halla-aho wrote of what is written in Quran and as what Mohammed would be viewed by today’s western standards. In Quran it’s implicated that Mohammed had sex with a 9-year old. Wouldn’t that make him a pedophile today? It’s also one of the reasons why millions of conservative muslims living in the countryside are marrying underage girls and having sex with them even before the puberty.

Of course an average person wouldn’t know this, because it’s not politically correct and may even be a crime. In the coming months we’ll see if it’s a crime to compare the context of Quran to the present law in Finland. To date nobody has been accused of blasphemy or agitation for comparing the bible to the law. Especially the old bible is somewhat gross.

The part about genetic characteristics is an analogy of an article published in Kaleva newspaper. Actually I was pretty surprised to learn how aware Hank W is of the case regardless of the media doing their best to defame Halla-aho. In Kaleva it was written as the opinion of an author that finns might be genetically inclined to alcohol and violence. I’m not aware of a single news media source which has reported this crucial fact in conjuction of the charges.

Lets take one issue – male/female segregation. Our society tells you that men and women are equal. Undeniable. But then why are there ‘female only’ gyms? Segregation? Why is it that I can’t get to swim naked at the swimming pool and if I can (Helsinki uimahalli) then why is it that men are not allowed to swim naked at the same time as women. For that matter why are toilets segregated?
Seems a stupid example but it’s not. It’s about relativism. The fact is that there are few areas in life where ‘anything goes’ – especially public life. There are absolute restrictions placed on all members of society in terms of their behavior.
Now if a member of a muslim group claimed that in Finland we should have segregated swimming pools – or times when only females were allowed to swim there might be an uproar. People might start saying things like – ‘they have to abide by our rules and our culture’. Except the thing is that in ‘our’ culture there exist already strong forms of segregation between the sexes. In our culture there are strong divisions between men and women.
But it’s wrong to think that multicultralism will come to Finland. The number of immigrants here is low and they have no political power. There is a policy to ‘divide’ and rule in terms of where immigrants are housed and no strong power-bases are allowed to form.
So with that in mind – with the fact that there is not and will never be a ‘multi-cultural’ Finland – is it fair or accurate to describe ‘potential’ multiculturalism as bringing with it a ‘moral relativism’. Well obviously ‘no’ because ‘culture’ is an unfinished project and because society itself is never ‘relativistic’ – it is always absolute in terms of the rules that should be applied to behavior.
So H-A is chasing shadows and making them solid and frightening. But the multiculturalism that he speaks of is a fiction. A fantasy which hasn’t taken hold in any Western society or Eastern society either. In ‘multi-cultural’ Britain do you think that there is a ‘moral relativism’? Absolutely not and Britain, with it’s imperial sins, is a hundred years further down the ‘multi-cultural’ road than Finland is.
SO H-A is scare mongering. It’s divisive and unnecessary. What interests is seeing who it is that takes his bait. What fish can this fisherman hook?

” In Kaleva it was written as the opinion of an author that finns might be genetically inclined to alcohol and violence.”

This “opinion” has rather strong scientific backing.

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2008-12/ace-aaa120808.php

Until a gene linked to robberies and welfare leeching is discovered, there is no double standard here.

“Now if a member of a muslim group claimed that in Finland we should have segregated swimming pools – or times when only females were allowed to swim there might be an uproar.”

I believe that the Jakomäki swimming centre has shifts dedicated to Muslim women. Predictably, Hullu-uho is screaming bloody murder.

http://www.halla-aho.com/scripta/muutama_sana_uimahallivuoroista.html

In the Jakomäki case it is sufficient to have shifts dedicated to female swimmers and not ‘muslim female’ users. So there shouldn’t be an issue at all. Obviously it is discriminatory to restrict non-muslims from swimming at that time and current legislation would prohibit this form of discrimination.

Yeah, Halla-aho is bonkers but disguises it relatively well. I think he is mostly useful though in letting this quite unpleasant steam out. The mainstream parties have not made any favours to immigrants and asylum seekers by refusing to have a meaningful discussion about the issues. Halla-aho is fundamentally a harmless looney though who should have the right to free speech, and any prosecutions will just strengthen his absurd martyr complex and gain new disciples among the great unwashed (read tuulipukukansa)…

Mara, my problem with Halla-aho is that instead of taking everyday issues that happen in Finland with incompatible cultures, he tends to portrait muslims according to the literal koran. Like all they really want is kill non-muslims, surpress women, wed underaged children, create a muslim state. It’s a lot like Geert Wilders, a fellow Dutchman, does. With success, since in the polls his political movement is about to become the largest… But those claims he and Halla-aho utter have not much to do with what goes on reality.

Then I have to agree part with Andy, that there seems to be no problem at all in Finland at the moment, so why all the fuss? It would be good, however, to be aware that although creating segregated swimming shifts seems kind of a normal thing, outside of Finland muslims groups succeeded to achieve segregated health care, service points, you name it, almost anything. Everything segregated, I kid you not! I really oppose to that, and there is a way of dealing with that and to show how that is something from an outside culture that is not acceptable. It is really really stupid to come up with koran texts to show how dangerous the muslim culture is. It is enough to show real intentions by real muslims (or whatever immigrant group for that matter), since that is already controversial. Hallo-aho is not far from just screaming “they took our jerbs!”

It’s quite possible that the law doesn’t mean f*ck-all, and that in the end it’s all about peer pressure, in a land of n. five million peers.

#24:”genetic evidence”. There is no such thing as a gene for alcoholism, period. That alone torpedoes your claim that Halla-aho was wrong in his comparison. Eurekalert: “People react quite differently to acute alcohol exposure.” This admission by your source, does not allow for a generalization of Finnish society, which was exactly the bogus claim Halla-aho was referring to in his post.

#18, your comment was clearly answered in #22. Not further words needed.

#23, Finland has laws on equality, it would be one thing for a swimming session to be female only, but it’s entirely another matter when it’s labeled as an exclusive Muslim female only event. That is exclusionary.

Enforcing nudity between the sexes would be of a more invasion of one’s privacy than a regulation bannin nudity but allowing for co-ed swimming, same goes for other private actions like showering and WC functions.

What you’re saying is, either have 100% interaction between the sexes, or allow for minority (for the present) relgious groups to impose their apartheid like measures upon the majority in a free and liberal society.

What if it were the KKK demanding white only swimming, due to their religious attitudes towards everyone not white, becuase their belief system demands the speration of the races? Or are you only willing to allow Muslims that right?

#18 &22 That is what is a common problem, people read some shit off the media and believe it. Worse even an abridged translation.

Some advice for those wishing to avoid being called “stupid”:
a) read the original so you know what really was said/happened – from multiple sources
b) make your opinion based on facts, not third party heresay

#23 Maybe you should go back to the UK for a while to experience the “multiculturalism” there, it seems you are by far too comfortable in Finland if you want us to become a similar cesspit of political correctness and double standards.

#22 The editorial piece of Kaleva is seldom quoted whole:
http://www.kaleva.fi/plus/juttu729970_page0.htm

Kiistatonta on, että Suomi on Länsi-Euroopan väkivaltaisimpia maita ja että se kytkeytyy erottamattomasti viinankäyttöön. Päissään surmaaminen on kansallinen, ehkä suorastaan geneettinen erityispiirre. Vastaavaa ei löydy esimerkiksi Ruotsin tai Norjan tilastoista. Jo tuiki tavallinen viikonloppurähinöinti herättää kysymyksen, miksi ravintolat saavat olla auki pikkutunneille.

“It is without doubt, that Finland is one of the most violent countries in Western Europe, and that it (violence) is unseparably tied to alcohol use. Killing while drunk is a national, maybe a genetical characteristic. Similarities cannot be found for example in Swedish nor Norwegian statistics. Even quite normal weekend brawling makes one ask, why the restaurants may be open until the small hours.”

Well, I could disagree in part on the Norwegian and Swedish statistics, but if we look at the Estonian or Russian statistics, the “drunken brawl killings” do exist in *all* of those countries. I’d say Finland is rather a fortunate place we don’t have sober people goiing on a killing spree. But thats beyond the point.

#18 Andy – look at this and then ask who is the loon?
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=bc9_1229526178

Ok Hank, watched the vid. Insane! But… the guy does not live in Finland. And, apart from some Finn techies without ethics that let their Finnish wives stay inside year round in dubai, so that they can cash big salaries at Nokia for instance, Finns have not much to do with types like him. So again I say it would be stupid to talk about Finnish policy and come up with examples like this.

There is one thing in this vid that one should be aware of and that is how this imam speaks that everything depends on the man that gives consent to the marriage, and the rest. He repeats that a lot. It’s always the man who decides about all and everything! Now that is interesting for us here in Finland, since that is something we can not touch with our laws. Or can we?

Kenny:
“There is no such thing as a gene for alcoholism, period. ”

Alcoholism is definitely not caused by a single gene – after all, it is ultimately caused by drinking alcohol. However, susceptibility to alcoholism as well as violent behaviour under the influence are definitely genetic, despite what some unqualified internut says.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18818659

http://www.med.helsinki.fi/english/news/20081216_MAOA.htm

@ Hank – It seems that you are saying that the U.K is a ‘cesspit of political correctness and double standards.” But then the U.K is a multicultural society – so multiculturalism in any country can’t work – right?
Finland will never be a multicultural society. So following this logic, Finland is and will remain for ever free of hypocrisy. Or perhaps you are equating increasing political correctness or awareness of others with multiculturalism. If so then you would be wrong to suggest that encroaching multiculturalism is somehow to increased sensitivity of the views of immigrants. The two are not necessarily connected.
The point is that the laws that guarantee equality are not under threat. If anything an increased multi-racial society improves laws on equality and makes such laws more acute and timely. Laws on equality are getting a re-fresh and that’s great.
Culture is not something you read in a book. You have to go and experience it. Hallo-Aho and indeed your good self Hank – tend to write in the abstract about culture.
But it’s hard to interact with muslims in Finland to learn more about their culture because there are so few of them. Walking in downtown Helsinki today i hardly saw an tanned face. The muslim population of Finland is tiny so you would be hard pressed to interact with a muslim and ask what they think about things. Maybe you’ll get your chance the next time you get a take away pizza perhaps.
Writing in the abstract and getting everyone worked up about a non-issue is looney. It’s the looney sort of activity that ‘blogists’ engage in. In fact if they were to step away from their computers and conduct some more rigorous practical research of the ethnographic kind we might be all better of and better informed.

#35 Yes he does not live in Finland, but so does not the Pope either and the Catholics still have their stands. The cleric in question is the highest official on marriage in Saudi Arabie, which I believe is where Mecca is. So maybe not the Pope but a high “authority”.

#37 But then the U.K is a multicultural society – so multiculturalism in any country can’t work – right?

1) “The Archbishop of York warned today that community cohesion can only be meaningfully achieved if there is an end to talk of multi-culturalism and cultural diversity. In his Christmas Day sermon, Dr John Sentamu, urged people to come together to “build our dwelling tent together”.”

2) Last week the government minister Ruth Kelly set up a commission to examine whether multiculturalism has gone too far. Her speech at the launch reflected the assumption that permitting, even encouraging, diverse cultural traditions to flourish, has resulted in modern Britons living in physical and mental ghettos; that multiculturalism has divided people, rather than brought them together.

3) One of Britain’s most prominent ethnic minority figures today attacks the excesses of multiculturalism. BBC newsreader George Alagiah says taking the policy too far has created segregated areas like apartheid’s social engineers dreamed of? in South Africa.

4) “Multiculturalism has failed because people refuse to move out of the ‘comfort zone’ of their own community, academics have warned. The study said the Left-wing doctrine had ignored the dangers of religious fundamentalism and should be scrapped. Communities should instead be actively encouraged to mix. The report, written by a team from University of Leicester, said this should be backed by a new concept of Britishness.

It would be based upon respect for the monarchy, loyalty to the elected Government, and respect and adherence to the law. The authors said multiculturalism is a dead concept but has left communities living separately from one another in virtual isolation, “co-existing with parallel lives”. Asaf Hussain, co-author of the work, said: ‘We believe multiculturalism has failed. It was a concept and a social reengineering policy with the best of intentions, but with little debate at the grass roots.

“It failed to recognise or ignored the dangers of religious fundamentalism with deadly consequences. It was yesterday’s message conveyed by yesterday’s men and women. Multicultural policies saved no lives in London. The ones who died and were injured through the terrorist actions of British-born terrorists in July 2005 came from all countries, cultures and religions. Britain’s population has to become integrated.”

O.k Hank, since we are in copy and paste mode:

”Multiculturalism is sometimes taken to mean that different cultural communities should live their own ways of life in a self-contained manner.

This is not its only meaning and in fact it has long been obsolete.

Multiculturalism basically means that no culture is perfect or represents the best life and that it can therefore benefit from a critical dialogue with other cultures.

In this sense multiculturalism requires that all cultures should be open, self-critical, and interactive in their relations with other each other.” Lord Parekh, professor of political philosophy.

Or this:

“To be British means that we respect the laws, the parliamentary and democratic political structures, traditional values of mutual tolerance, respect for equal rights…”

But Britishness does not mean a single culture. Integration is the co-existence of communities and unimpeded movement between them, it is not assimilation.

Britishness is a strong concept but not all embracing.” Professot Bernard Crick

Or this:

”Multiculturalism is not dead, in fact it has been reasserted by government policy in the form of ‘valuing diversity’.”

So in fact the debate in the U.K about multiculturalism has changed and evolved – certainly it has not been scrapped. In fact it seems that the previous concept of multiculturalism is drawing to the end of it’s life due to certain goals being realised rather than having been been rejected.
In the U.K now in terms of race relations – the feeling is that instead of a negative tolerance of others’ cultures there is a positive acceptance of ‘others” value. This positive acceptance comes from working with each other on a daily basis.
In Finland it’s not so common for your ‘average’ Finn to be in daily contact with immigrants. The issue of immigration is talked about in the abstract. People like ‘yer man’ Hallo- Aho is being crude and divisive. His aim is for Finnish people and the government to reject the rights of ‘the immigrant’ to have a place within Finnish society. This is a serious concern. Imagine if you will, being born into a muslim family in Finland and feeling from the outset that society is against you and will not accept you for who you are and what you believe in. Multiculturalism for me has always been about accepting the differences of others and being comfortable with diversity.
But anyway regardless of what has happened in the U.K (and a lot of progress has been made) Finland is in a very different situation. In Finland there remains very small numbers of immigrants and very small numbers of muslims. These minorities are often used as a whipping post for the abstractions of nationalistic sentiment of some Finns. It’s a shame.
Yes absolutely the centre of the political spectrum should come out with a coherent immigration policy as I’ve mentioned before in this thread. I also think is does no good to prosecute Hallo-Aho – he is determined to be made a martyr of.

#36, You miss the point completely.

Halla-aho is being charged for supposedly making sweeping generaliztions of the Somali refugees. even if your point has merit about alcohol influencing a certain gene that will trigger violence, the overwhelming percentage of Finns are not affected by it, rendering the phenomenon to a lower percentage of the population.

What’s important to note, is that the claim in the Kaleva article, that it’s a national characteristic,…is inherently false. It is that generalization that Halla-aho was alluding to and using it as a means to show the hypocricy of the state that allows an extreme generalization to go unchecked, simply because its about ethnic Finns, while making as sweeping of a generalization of Somalis….draws the government’s interest and subsequently, an attempt at prosecution.

#40 Yes, Andy – but the problem is, that the “multiculturalism” that is force-fed to the Finns is the ideological child of the 1970′s British model (remember us being about 20 years behind) – and its promoted by people who left the UK when things were good. Or then by people who know things aren’t good and come here to preach their failed agenda. And as Finns don’t have the “experience” they believe it.

“there is a positive acceptance of ‘others” value. This positive acceptance comes from working with each other on a daily basis.”

Yes well it is quite the opposite. The young people are getting more racist than their parents. The parents my be prejudiced, the kids live with it.

What the problems in Finland about the “multiculturalism” is
a) there is no debate except Finns and Finland is always wrong
b) victim-mentality always everything is the fault of “racism”
c) inferiority complex – Finland is uncivilized blaa blaa blaa
d) its the White Heterosexual Male who is always at fault, even hes the taxpayer

Its got nothing got to do with diversity or religion or anything like that. there are rules, you play with the rules. The same rules for everybody, and you agree to the rules together. Theres been muslims, jews, different christians in Finland for centuries and they’ve not had problems being what they are.

I don’t see any problem except the current immigrants being rude and segregating themselves. The muslim kid has only his parents to blame if they have segregated their children from the community. You don’t come in and dictate your rules, because then you don’t get to play.

Oh and then there is the do-gooders that have some sort of perverse need for diversity. They want the foreigner to be the victim, to be colorful. For them the greatest enemy is not the redneck from the boonies, but an integrated immigrant who doesn’t need special services. As these do-gooders make a huge business with this victimization and create jobs for a variety of people. Of course these people don’t want the immigrants to integrate as they would loose their shelter jobs. Government pays – only I don’t think we have a bottomless purse. And yes its a business these days. You look for example into the finances of companies offering “consulting” or renting asylum shelters – then look at the names of lawyers – then look at the political connections. Big business.

Oh, Hank, have you been bitten by the Halla-aho bug? Say it ain’t so. I mean he is pretty crude and I don’t really think that we have much of the most extreme Anglo-Saxon political correctness in Finland. Andy, I don’t know where in Helsinki you go for your sociological promenades but there are places where immigrants are quite a significant proportion and there are all sorts of problems (as one would naturally expect). Helsinki is projected to have ca 25% share of pupils of immigrant background by 2025 and some school districts are projected to be majority immigrant. The pace of change has been quick and this has given opportunity to cheap demagogues like Halla-aho, but wouldn’t say that he gets his ideas out of thin air as if Finland wouldn’t have a quickly growing immigrant population.

@43 ”Go to Itakeskus and will be swamped with immigrants. Go to the center of Helsinki and you shall find none.” Obviously both are over generalizations. But lets consider that the muslim population (the target of Hallo-Aho’s ire) of Finland is around 20.000. This small part of Finnish society is getting a lot of headlines. But they are not really visible to the average Finn.
Also muslims make up about 15% of the immigrant population. So the crap that comes out is shocking. It’s almost as if immigrant= muslim. A recent facebook page put up by a Finnish guy who didn’t like Somalians attracted over 15.000 supporters. Pretty much more than there are Somalians living in Finland.
This is a big issue. It needs to be addressed. There is a lot of scaremongering going on.
What sickens me about Hallo-Aho and the blog he writes from his basement bunker is that is so unnecessarily divisive. Imagine Saint John Lennon looking down and shaking his head asking ”where is the love?’. Hallo-Aho paints all muslims as being fundamentalist, but then there is diversity within the muslim community in Finland. Then stories about ‘political correctness’ get played up by the media and all hell breaks loose. Rationally considering the facts and the day-to-day lives of people there isn’t any political correctness. Political correctness isn’t ‘in use’ in daily life. It’s just people dealing with each other face-to-face the best way they can. But then Hallo-Aho and his ilk stir things up and try to create fire where there is no fire. And why? Because they have an agenda – they want power. Power to effect day-to-day interactions.

Hank, #41 You wrote “What the problems in Finland about the “multiculturalism” is” and then you list a,b,c,d. What you write, with the exception of a, is not what I think is the problem at all. At least they are not problems that will be a burden on society. I think that unemployment, criminality and the high number of under-skilled asylum seekers are the real symptoms that we need to deal with, but the underlying problems you should seek in Finnish law and economy, and only part in attitude. And your problem b, c and d are (your conceived) attitudes of immigrants, right? Who cares what they think?!?! I don’t. So what about Finnish attitudes? If we’re talking multiculturalism, it also means Finnish culture.

Well majava, the b) might become the problem of the immigrants once they learn this victim mentality, but they actually b, c & d are the attitudes of the “Finns promoting multiculturalism”.

Now the problem as you say might be “unemployment, criminality and the high number of under-skilled asylum seekers”, but instead of making the cause of the problem being “under-skillednes causing unemployment and alienation resulting in criminality” instead of tackling the “problem” as in ” there is no place for underskilled labor in the society” and do something to change this, namely making the underskilled skilled which cannot be done at the snap of the finger – inestead of that the “problem” instead is said to be “discrimination” and “institutionalized racism” and “xenophobia” blaa blaa blaa…

You are right though, its the underlying problems in Finnish law and economy. As if the situation would be any different you packed the same amount of Finns into a highrise and put them live off welfare. Jakomäki had a reputation far before immigrants were heard of. And most of it is caused by too much “understanding” – its the societys fault being unemployed drunk, not the persons own ever.

#43 “I don’t really think that we have much of the most extreme Anglo-Saxon political correctness in Finland.”

Not *yet*
We don’t have no-go area ghettoes *yet*

Its coming.

Well, one thing to remember is that our age structure will collapse in the coming decades with the baby boomers retiring. What will be needed, also, are lots and lots of relatively unskilled workers in the age of establishing families and having children. I don’t think our economy will be able to handle a situation where we won’t have a very significant immigration into the country. The asylum seekers are, at the moment, a problem but their numbers are small and will remain small. The real problem is how we will get more foreigners here, not less. Of course here we have to be sensibly selfish and think carefully about potential cultural and political issues but even the asylum seekers will surely end up being a net benefit in the context of our catastrophically aging population.

#43 “But lets consider that the muslim population (the target of Hallo-Aho’s ire) of Finland is around 20.000. This small part of Finnish society is getting a lot of headlines. But they are not really visible to the average Finn.Also muslims make up about 15% of the immigrant population. So the crap that comes out is shocking.”

Yes exactly. The crap that comes out is schocking. Howcome such a small group is so vocal in making demands? First of all instead of saying thank you these vocal peole demand – and the stupid Finnish authorities give. Howcome these people have the nerve to make demands for us to change our ways and culture? So yes, they get the focus onto them as they demanded it. Maybe they should have stayed quiet and polite instead of making demands. It might work in their culture, but not in ours, hence the knee-jerk reactions.

#49 Yes, the thing is to keep the service level we have currently we need people working and paying taxes. To have that we need to have jobs. We don’t need 100 000 pizza guys selling each other kebab, we don’t need 100 000 unemployeds selling each other soap, we need 100 000 skilled workers in the export industry, and we need an export industry. We don’t have oil reserve money like Norway to keep the system running with the money from the magic wall, the money needs to come from somewhere. So pragmatically, its not the quantity of foreigners but the quality of foreigners. And if we get a quantity of foreigners now, if we let the kids alienate themselves to ghettoes like in the UK, France, Sweden, we don’t have the skilled workers of the next generation. Just the opposite, we have a ghetto society where the skilled workers don’t wish to move to.

Ok Hank, now you start to make more sense to me. I just want to say that you (or anyone else that agrees that there are some problems around immigration and we should be able to discuss that) would be more convincing if you do not skip some essential steps and (like Halla aho) jump from for instance Somali youngsters that cause trouble at the railway station to the koran as source of all evil.

And i do agree that stuff like this:
http://www.yle.fi/uutiset/news/2009/03/minister_concerned_over_immigrant_youths_650454.html
is perhaps even more damaging than what Halla-aho doing. I don’t know if in this case it’s YLE, or Holmlund…

Yeah, I think we pretty much have to kiss our export industry good bye regardless – unless we start paying engineers and technicians Indian and Chinese rates. We will need nurses, cleaners, busdrivers, relatively low paid service industry workers. Slums we also I suppose we will have in any case, regardless of immigration. The only chance to maintain the welfare state (whose essence is universally open and affordable high quality education system leading to high social mobility and relatively fair social competition) is to maintain the age structure as young as possible. Yes, if the asulym seekers will come in great numbers, we will contiune botching their integration, but they won’t come in great numbers. Unless you take seriously Halla-aho’s smoke and mirrors statistics. I mean compared to him Winter is a statistical genius…

Sorry about the atrocious English spelling and grammar in #52 – work is disturbing my surfing…

Atrocious English spelling and grammar in #52? I know my English skills suffer because I can’t practice it enough with native speakers, but you don’t need to apologise for that, mjr!

Kindly said! It just so easily happens that you start writing a foreign language using structures from your own. I have good vocabulary but sometimes my English is like Finnish with only English words. Anyway, maybe it was the shock of realizing that Hank has become a Halla-ahoist…

@48 “We don’t have no-go area ghettoes *yet*”

In Finland, ghetto people (drunks, violent asocials and assorted losers) are everywhere to find, but just not all in one place. It’s astounding how many young ones are among them. They could all be replaced by hard working immigrants.

It’s hard to read anything that is full of hate!

@51 Hank this is a gross and insulting generalization – ”And if we get a quantity of foreigners now, if we let the kids alienate themselves to ghettoes like in the UK, France, Sweden, we don’t have the skilled workers of the next generation. Just the opposite, we have a ghetto society where the skilled workers don’t wish to move to.”

It seems that you think that where there are immigrants there are also ghettos. Also how do kids alienate themselves? Put the blame on them and see what happens. Now look to your own prejudices and see what comes as a result. Love and be loved, respect and be respected, hate and be hated. It’s clear to see that you think yourself superior and look down on immigrants and their lifestyles.

Second generation immigrant kids in Finland should have the same chances as any other Finnish kid. What’s all this talk of social engineering? Do we force the kids from immigrant families to train as bus drivers or nurses? They have a right to choose which path in life they want to go down.

But as I’ve said many times before, introducing quotas and restrictions on immigration is nothing unusual. It happens in a lot of western countries. But then why would a skilled worker want to come here? They would have their own reasons but how many come and then leave? For skilled workers to settle and raise a family in Finland then they would have to find Finland a comfortable and happy place to live. Lets hope that future immigrants do find Finland to be a warm, open and accepting society that appreciates them.

#59

It seems that you think that where there are immigrants there are also ghettos

No, where there are low income hosing there are low-income people. Recent immigrants and others. And you can’t deny right now the prospects of getting a job for say a paperworker in the boonies ar unskilled immigrant (or skilled one) are quite bleak. The rich immigrants, with a job, can buy a house in Westend as can other well off people. Nobody is “putting” or “forcing” the immigrants anywhere.

Those who cannot buy have to take what they’re given as rental – fact of being pissbroke. if you cannot afford a Mercedes-Benz you drive a Lada, if you can’t afford a car you take the bus. Nobody is “putting” or “forcing” you on the bus. So yes indeed you often have a concentration of social cases in low-income housing areas. (Hence the Finnish ideology to not concentrate housing projects – thats why theres the drunks all around.) And if the problems start concentrating it comes a self-feeding fire that has an ability to turn the area into a ghetto.

The future ghettoes are slowly forming there in the housing projects – at the moment there is a problem with alienated youth already. http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Oulu+struggles+with+country%E2%80%99s+worst+youth+unemployment+problem/1135239192375
=> and this is dated well *before* the current unemployment figures. These kids are already slowly being “let go”.

How do kids alienate themselves? Have you been to the city at night and looked? Kids can innocently just hang around. However if they have unemployed parents at home on the binge, no youth facilities, they get stupid ideas, collective pressure. And you ask yourself how many teenager is really-really-really interested in school? 50% 10%

So say you’re 16, no more school, your home is dysfunctional, the society is dysfunctional and your surrounded with people as dysfunctional as you. Theres no jobs, you don’t have to go to the army, you don’t have to go to school, you have no future prospects with a straight 5 in your report card – and nobody cares. So what do you do? Drink beer and steal cars for a joyride?

Now this is a problem with the natives as well, come in immigrant kids, maybe in their teens and the problems triple. Their parents can’t help them if they are themselves lost in the society. So people naturally congregate together with people they feel more comfortable with. If the natives do this its called white flight and racism – if the immigrants do it its called multiculturalism. Look at chinatowns, little italys etc. – they’re similar concentrations due to the same reasons.

Problem is that these concentrations are not affluent, rather low- or no-income areas. Which means the schools and other services in the areas are poor and there is not enough resources. If the kids are teenagers you don’t have an effective special education to get them up to par, and on top you have the prejudice and harshness of the society. And instead of saying to these kids that yes, you actually need to work triple as hard – the do-gooders teach them to yell “racism” in every instance. Which then alienates the natives as they have nothing they can yell.

Worse is if the parents, lost in the new society they don’t understand try to keep the values as they were in the old country they understood and forbid the children to interact with the society they are living in. However the kids need to be functioning in the society they live in if they wish to succeed – especially in Finland. We can see these “alienated” young generations that have been “lost” to both their parents’ and to the society around them. And of course they get angry – and then we get another fine day in Rosengård.

“Second generation immigrant kids in Finland should have the same chances as any other Finnish kid.”

Yes they do have. But if their parents deny them these chances, then who is to blame? If they end up in a ghetto neighborhood and bad schooling – they have the same chances as any other kid in the ghetto hood. But what if theres only immigrants in that hood? Who is to blame?

“For skilled workers to settle and raise a family in Finland then they would have to find Finland a comfortable and happy place to live.”

Which is exactly why we should avoid the mistakes done elsewhere and act so that the society stays whole, instead of allowing segregation and alienation. Would you want to move into Rosengård? If theres only resources to fix up 100 lives then in whose interest is there to have 1000 or 10 000 lives – and the same resources? It is for those people who want the 2nd generation immigrants to stay in that downtrodden position. The big business who wants the cheap exploitable workforce, and the do-gooders and other old stalinists who benefit out of the victimization industry. The immigrants and Finland as a whole are not benefitting.

And of course I am superior

#53 Yes but *where* do we get the money to have these menial job workers while maintaining the welfare society, free education & so forth? After all we see here people bitch and moan about the high salaries, low taxes and cheap prices ad nauseam.

#56 The old proverb says “the manure doesn’t stink unless you go poke in it”. Halla-aho has started such a shitstorm people actually need to look themselves in the mirror and think. The money is a finite commodity. theres no resources to do everything as its supposed to do. So if Holmlund says that there is resources needed in X – howcome the funding is aimed at Y. All of you guys bitch&moan about the atrocious level of Finnish language education – and that is the key in succeeding. Small things like that – while we’re throwing money down a drain elsewhere.

In any case – the multiculturalists & others seem more interested in shutting people up than actually debating the issues and proving Halla-aho wrong. Their problem and fear is that he might be right – and that you actually would need to do something – maybe ideologically wrong – to rectify the situation.

About the political agenda otherwise – re. Islam and such, I’d be riding about as hard if Fred Phelps was around picketing. The problem is in the UK for example these “hatepreachers” are quite frenkly let speak far much vitriolic stuff than what Halla-aho writes, while at the same time people don’t dare to object due to sensitivity and whatnot. I don’t think we as such a small nation can afford this kind of double standards in the long run. Of course, we are well-versed with it, Finlandization and ass-kissing the USSR is exactly the same approach. In 1979 you were anti-soviet and 2009 you’re a racist if you start talking of ordinary things – after all we remember there weren’t any human rights abuses in USSR which was a paradise etc… there is no “debate” allowed which would be that necessary thing for “true multiculturalism”. Its “Finland and Finns are always wrong” it seems, and I can’t fathom exactly why… except that bad self-esteem. And if you have a good self-esteem theres someone immediately whining about that.

Finns are a schizoid bunch in this aspect…. the bipolar nature might explain the bipolar nature – or was that racism?

Hank:
“#56 The old proverb says “the manure doesn’t stink unless you go poke in it””

This applies very well to Hullu-uho’s writings. If you look at them superficially, perhaps skimming through one or two blog entries, you’re likely to wonder what the fuss is all about.

Now, when someone takes a little more in-depth look at it and finds something extremely disagreeable. the Master and his disciples start yelling about persecution and “quoting out of context”.

#24 “There is a policy to ‘divide’ and rule in terms of where immigrants are housed and no strong power-bases are allowed to form.”

Immigrants arent housed or restricted in any area, they can live where they want if they can afford it. If goverment pays it then they will be in cheapest area like finns in same situation.

#60.”Now this is a problem with the natives as well, come in immigrant kids, maybe in their teens and the problems triple.”

In here, you are wrong Hank! This problem among immigrants teens is less than in finnish youth. A jobless immigrant is living a better life than a jobless finn which turns immediately to an alcoholic from the first unemployment day , this was on HS pages some weeks ago. I mean you can’t assume the same consequence for two different groups, because the culture in this case has to manifest. Instead of attacking the multiculturalism, i think finns would benefice from it as well.
By the way, being night time in the downtown, i see only drunk finns, and few foreigners.

#65 Well lets say they face different sorts of problems. For example some of the Ingrian “returnees” had teenage kids that “fell through” . Their parents were working, maybe two jobs – but as the kids didn’t speak Finnish – there wasn’t Russian language education much past the age 16 – and they got here during the recession there wasn’t money to put into the education. There were some very sorry cases of drugs and petty crime. They didn’t even have a chance – the drunk Finns’ kids at least know the basics of how to function in the society – where to go to get help etc.

#63 Yes Franklin, after all Jesus said to cast stones at a prostitute.

#52 koran as the source of all evil.

I don’t know if it is really the Koran itself or any other holy book, as atrocities can be based on the yellow pages, its rather the interpretations and cultural baggage. But what do you think of this?

“In February 2009, Nicolai Sennels, a Danish psychologist published a book entitled Among criminal Muslims. A psychologist’s experience from Copenhagen. In his book, Nicolai Sennels shares a psychological perspective of this Muslim Culture, its relationship to anger, handling emotions and its religion. He based his research on hundreds of hours of therapy with 150 young Muslims in the Copenhagen youth jail. EuropeNews interviewed the author about his book and its consequences on integration of Muslims in Europe.”

Thats quite disturbing to read for some. And I don’t think it should be banned if it is disturbing to read, rather than question what is the reasons to come that kind of conclusions. If Halla-aho is a minor shitstirrer, Nikolai Sennels is a flying elephant with diarrea.

Hank:
“#63 Yes Franklin, after all Jesus said to cast stones at a prostitute.”

Even though the Master (and his disciples) seem to have some rather grandiose ideas about himself, perhaps it would be better to take baby steps and start with something a little lighter. Napoleon, perhaps?

#62: “In 1979 you were anti-soviet and 2009 you’re a racist if you start talking of ordinary things ”

So in 1989 the soviet fell and in 2019 the anti-racist will fall…;)

I can guarantee that I’ll be where pepper grows if in 2019 we’ll have the Finnish Multiculturalism-critical ™ Workers’ Party in power. Consider that falling if you must.

I don’t think that few thousands of muslims can be a real danger for Finland . In other european countries, muslims have been settling there since the second world war, when they need to build the infrastructures, since then nothing bad was observed about them, until the war against terrorism launched. I don’t know if it concerns Islam or the politics by the islamic countries or something else, because I still remember how the west supported the islamist warriors and talibans against Soviet union during the war in Afghanistan ,and telling nicer things about them and their religion,and using full coverage from the media (i can still Remember Rambo III) and when the war finished, the game changed . Nowadays you can find anything silly about islam next to you, video , payed pens… That’s why this things appear a little blurry to me, and as Hank said in #31:” That is what is a common problem, people read some shit off the media and believe it.” .Now I am wondering if Buddhism gonna be the next after Dalai Lama wins the case against china. Same shit.

Halla-Aho comments about muslims remains bizzare, cause they are just a few of them in Finland, half of them are no practicals. Hallo-Aho is an expert and phd holder in Russian language, I guess he knows the russian culture very well, so doesn’t he see that the russians are the big proportion of the immigrants in Finland, or haven’t he heard about the protest of the russian youth in Helsinki, or about lands that russians bought in Northern and Eastern Finland, which can turn to a real menace for the finnish territory , or is it the fear! In fact, he just want to imitate his other peer in Europe and gets the great renown! And yeah, if you wanna be famous, just say something bad about Jews and their lies about holocaust, or curse the islam.

@Hank – your replies are quite amusing. It seems that you’ve trawled all over the internet for worse-case scenarios and bad situations that are happening in other countries. And de facto you think that what happens in another country will also happen in Finland. It’s just a matter of time – right?
Real life experience counts for ten times more than an internet search. Take a break and get a cheap flight out to the U.K. Stay in London and visit some mixed-race communities there. Talk to local people. Do a bit of ethnography. If you can’t afford the flight then stay here in Finland and talk to muslim groups. Come to Koivukylä and see the the well disguised ‘muslim centre’ here (if you can find it). There’s a cafe attached to the centre – come and chat with some of the Somalians there.
But you won’t will you? You you think it’s enough to just do a ‘google’. I’ve met very well- read Finns who seem very knowledgeable on so many topics. Unfortunately their knowledge kind of blinds them. They become arrogant and blinkered – they know you before they’ve met you. Too much theory and not enough practice.
In your case it seems that you’ve become an expert in all things to do with ‘multiculturalism’. Congratulations and I hope you get far with it. As for me, well I’m no expert but I’ve lived in mixed-race poor communities in the U.K and can tell you that for the most part the problems their are to do more with income inequality than race. Sure race is a big issue but it’s not the biggest issue in these communities. Community leaders focus on good relations and how to get along with your neighbors. Incidentally many kids of immigrant families pull themselves out of their situation and receive a good education and get good jobs.
I sense a closed-mindedness about your posts and also Hallo-Aho. It’s like you’ve read the book and now you know.

Los Perkelos, you have a good point about the Afghanistan War of the 1980s. US political leaders thought that only rising islamic extremism would cure the world of the evil of communism. In 1989, it might have even seemed to some that it was thanks to the bin Ladens of the world that the Berlin Wall fell.

Rising islamic extremism was seen as a very useful tool by powerful elements in the Saudi and Pakistani governments over the past few decades. For some reason, Iran always gets the blame for everything (because they are not the US closest ally and the Saudis and the Pakistanis have been) but to me the (I’m not saying the Saudis and Pakistanis as such but people there with considerable political, military and economic power) two countries with close ties to the US have done more for a top-down islamization of the Middle East than most other actors.

The good news is that Obama seems actually to understand what is going on in Pakistan. But the situation is very precarious and the bad guys could end up with nuclear weapons at any time.

Winter’s view is that there is no War on Terror anymore. But the previous War on Terror totally missed its target because the Bush Administration was not capable to admit that the most dangerous proponents of extremism actually had been US allies, not just in the 1980s but in many cases after that too. The biggest fault with George W. and his crowd was that they were so unwilling to admit facts.

Now Obama is actually facing up to facts, at least in Afghanistan and Pakistan. There is a US Administration in power that is more serious about facing terrorism than the previous one. But there are many perils in that fight and disasters awaiting to happen. A lot more should be done to make sure that the most dangerous extremists do not carry the day.

As far as the anti-immigrant agitation here in Finland is concerned, I sincerely believe that it partly serves the cause of the Islamic extremists because what they want is that every single muslim or person of Middle Eastern origin is branded an extremist or a potential extremist (they want to make an extremist out of every muslim). What benefits Islamic extremism also benefits the extreme right because both want maximum confrontation and maximum slander, no dialogue.

It’s a little bit like Hamas in the Palestinian territories and politicians like Lieberman in Israel. When one of them wins, the other one wins too (look, I told you so, they’re all bastards, and stuff like that). Halla-aho is sort of like our Avigdor Lieberman (who happens to just have taken office as the Israeli Foreign Minister). Politicians like that have a certain demand when extremism on one side feeds extremism on the other side. Consider someone who can’t hold his tongue as the country’s chief diplomat (perhaps that’s why Lieberman was picked as FM so that he would get an opportunity to screw things up).

I think Timo Soini did the right thing when he chose to nominate himself instead of Halla-aho. He’ll probably even get more votes than Halla-aho would have (and certainly more than H-a will get if he runs as a completely independent candidate). Yes, nominating Halla-aho would have increased an extremist tendency in Finnish politics for sure (which some people think is the whole aim of the True Finns). But I think this solution sort of proves the point that Soini is not an extremist, which is quite reassuring, actually.

I moved to Sweden in February 1985 and lived there until January 1987.I then moved back to SWE in September 1990 and came back september 1991. I have lived in Fittja , Jordbro and Rinkeby , all Stockholm suburbs. So far as I can say , 85-86 was not yet that bad , but the culture of the muslim immigrants was visible already then. 90-91 things had gone worse , usually the Rinkeby suburb is a “good CV-item” in these matters.

So I have seen things go sour once , and it appears that I need to see that happening one more time. Especially the Swedish Peoples party keeps on nagging on “how we can learn from the mistakes of Sweden” , and doing things exactly as in SWE.

I just wonder if I need to move to Argentina one day in order to freely say that:

1. The muslim refugees are lying , they are not reefugees at all.
2. They don’t have any intention to obey non-muslim laws.
3. They are criminals not because of being the victims of the society. Their criminality has a cultural root in islamic superior attityde towards the non-muslim society’s law and order.
4. They are coming here just to milk the social benefits. They do not have an intention to get a job.
5. Neither do they have professional skills which could benefit the society.
6. The non-muslim society gives them plenty of chances to get an education. They do not give a rat for these chances.

#73 So you’re saying that Finland is Finland and nothing that happens elsewhere has any effect on Finland?

And yes last time I was in London in 2006 I was in Walthamstow and that part of multicultural London is something I really don’t want Helsinki to be like at all. And I was up in Brummy as well and it was quite interesting how the locals were afraid and prejudiced and on the other hand how segregated they were. I mean the social class distinctions there.

As for the Internet and googling, of course the funny stories like about the scotsman who got jailed for two days for “racsit revving of engine” in his Lotus hit the eye.

“for the most part the problems their are to do more with income inequality than race.”

Really people should look in the mirror and ask why is this rather than find excuses to things. Income doesn’t explain the “alienation” bit, as theres also well-off youths in your affluent neighbourhoods that get lost. Like the recent school shooters weren’t exactly ghetto kids. So theres a variety of reasons, and I think you hit that love&caring bit there above which I think is more closer to the truth.

As far as the Koivukylä goes – why exactly would I want to go there? The muslims can come to me as well. I can quite comfortably get mugged at my own ghetto station here in Myyrmäki already. It doesn’t require exotic travel to far away places.

So I don’t know if being close minded is worse than being mindless. Your approach to things – being “open-.minded” is like Divine going after brown turds on the street hoping to find a chocklate. I rather not bother. Maybe I’ve missed a lot of chocklates, but at the end of the day you’re the one needing breath mints.

#72 “since then nothing bad was observed about them. until the war against terrorism launched”

Are you totally dense or lived in the bottle? Or are you too young to remember the PLO in the 1970′s?

Regardless, the point is really that Halla-aho should not be quieted as “nothing will happen” but the opponents should be able to contradict and prove his points wrong. If they can’t than thats not winning the argument. he is pointing the flaws in the current system – which isn’t what the people in charge wish to be hearing. If truth hurts then it does.

Otherwise its like sweeping the problems under the carpet and then we might be in trouble. I rather look at Denmark and the other Nordic countries as we basically have a similar… way of life, more or less the same kind of societal structure. And things in Denmark don’t look good what makes the people say “things in Finland are different” if they don’t even dare to publish the research figures??? The problems need to be tackled while they’re still budding and not wait for knee-jerk reactions when its too late. Do you put out the fire with a cup of water or wait until the house is aflame and boil the cup for tea?

#73 Andy Campbell

***I’m no expert but I’ve lived in mixed-race poor communities in the U.K and can tell you that for the most part the problems their are to do more with income inequality than race. Sure race is a big issue but it’s not the biggest issue in these communities.***

Just for starters , for umphteenth time on different forums , islam is not a race and to go on and on ad nausium about race simply does not do the trick anymore. Period.

And for the second , I simply do not believe that you have lived in a suburb with high % of muslim immigrants. Or then you have , for some reason , a spasm-like need to try to portray things being better than they are in reality.

Dangerous talk boys. careful not to create a culture of hate. Do we have to keep bringing up what happened to the Jews in WWII?

#79 Andy Campbell

***Do we have to keep bringing up what happened to the Jews in WWII?***

Godwins Law. However , jews were not criminal but productive citizens in pre-nazi Germany. This is not the case with the muslims.

#77.Did you say PLO? What has PLO to do with this? Most of the PLO members are chritians , The palestinian society , same like lebanese, is combination of christians and muslims. In general, being from middle East is not necessarily being a muslim, you have a plenty of christian Iraquis and kurdish in Finland. Now you start to mix everything and you are the one who is still living in the bottle. Funny you see you..

#79 “Dangerous talk boys. careful not to create a culture of hate. Do we have to keep bringing up what happened to the Jews in WWII?”

Or do we want peaceful nation where all love eachother like CCCP and who says something else is shot or transferred to siberia?

@ 80 Hey Matti, your extremism does you no favors. To brand all muslims as criminals is really a stupid thing to do. So either you are pissed or just of low intelligence.
So here we are – and this one is for Hank too – a report commissioned by the European Community detailing how Muslims in Europe feel about possible integration and the discrimination and hostility they face in their day-to-day lives: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/18_12_06perceptioneu.pdf
It might be useful for you although I doubt that you’ll read it.
Just a few comments more.
When the crazies on the periphery are taken to be the mainstream then all sorts of problems arise. Just like looney islamic fundamentalist there is also the looney Finnish ‘blogist’. They are one and the same. One would hope that their extreme views are not taken to the centre. It’s a sensible society that excludes and prosecutes both sorts of extremism.

Funding of Islamists in Afghanistan continued after the Soviets left in 1989, well into the 1990s and early 2000s. The banking channels had already been fully established during the Reagan era and at least superficial justification existed for allowing them to remain open thereafter – the Soviets (Russians) could’ve always returned to stake a claim, right? Better to keep the region radicalized just in case. The only question is where the money came from. It is doubtful that post-1989 funding came directly from the US budget, but more likely that most came from private sources that would have benefited from a military occupation and subsequent “reconstruction.” They only needed to wait for acts of mayhem committed around the world to be traced back to the region, and thereby affect public sentiment in favor of intervention. Then, quite possibly, when the Neocons ascended to power they stepped up funding to make “terrorism” happen at a faster pace.

Industries connected to central banking usually benefit most from interventions, because they can loan money to governments and be guaranteed repayment by taxpayer money. Consider that America’s central bank is owned through stock shares by a number of private banking corporations – both domestic and foreign in terms of ownership. A few of the weightier ones influence monetary policy and decisions of the US government itself. They, along with other special interests such as the military industrial complex, predominant media corporations and AIPAC determine who is electable to high offices in the US. Notice how there are two things that never get seriously addressed in American politics: monetary policy and foreign policy. They always stay the same no matter which major candidate runs and/or gets elected. In effect, presidents in the US are puppets.

Any perception that the new administration is displaying “caution” can more realistically be interpreted as a smart utilization of time, which happens to be on its side for now. To think that “Obama seems actually to understand what is going on in Pakistan [or Afghanistan]” only serves to euphemise the fact that supranational corporate strategy in the region remains the same as before: to create/maintain yet another puppet regime in the Middle East, a continuation of policy that extends far prior to the Reagan era. Given this ongoing, gross, forceful manipulation of the Middle East region by western commercial interests, should there be any wonder why Islam allegedly continues to be a “threat” to the West?

I have no doubt that there are local problems, even some quite unpleasant ones, but we simply do not have and will not have significant enough numbers of immigrants or asylum seekers that would ever justify this enormous outpouring of propaganda, misleading statistics and even, yes, really, hate speech. Halla-aho titles his blog “messages from the sinking West” – apocalyptic (and quite Republican) visions of muslim hordes (almost vermin like, when you think about it) swamping our lily white, pure, virginal nations… The facts simply don’t justify these hysterics. Hank, I have always thought that you are the most level headed person – do you have any personal experiences of these fanatic muslims and flower hatted aunties cheering rapists and murderers? I must say that I’m simply flabbergasted at this enormous outcry about very, very small groups of people (most of which actually are perfectly law abiding, decent persons).

#76 “And yes last time I was in London in 2006 I was in Walthamstow and that part of multicultural London is something I really don’t want Helsinki to be like at all.”
Could you describe?

#79 “Dangerous talk boys. careful not to create a culture of hate. Do we have to keep bringing up what happened to the Jews in WWII?”

Let\’s remember that the conflict between Judaism and western civilization doesn\’t begin or end with the WWII period; instead it extends back to early Roman times. We only need to see what people have written on the matter throughout history and perhaps even see if it applies to modern times.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIQbe9ATUNU

In comparison, Islam vs. western civilization is a relatively new phenomenon, briefly played out on the Iberian peninsula and in the late, eastern Roman empire (modern Turkey). I don\’t think Islam is the big threat.

#83 Andy Campbell:

***Hey Matti, your extremism does you no favors. To brand all muslims as criminals is really a stupid thing to do. So either you are pissed or just of low intelligence.***

Yeah. Right. Just right. Do you how many times I’ve heard that ? In order to get a grasp on these issues , it is necessary to take a look at Stockholm geography and to what implications that geography has on politics.

0. Geography of decision-making

For starters , the decision-making regarding these matters in Stockholm happens “inside the tolls”. Inside the tolls is an idiom in Stockholm describing the innercity area “innerstaden” which is limited by Skanstull (south) and Norrtull (north). The saying is that “everything south of Skanstull is Scania and everthing north of Norrtull is Lappland”. This is the mindset of innerstaden , which consists of following districts :

Gamla Stan
Kungsholmen
Norrmalm
Vasastan
Södermalm
Östermalm

In order to live in innerstaden , you need to have MONEY. A flat there will cost you a zillion. And innerstaden is the place where multiculturalism is very physically located in , be so sure. You’ve got all the central actors with influence positioned here : the parliament , the universities and the journalists. They all believe in multicultural agenda.

1. Phase one. Ca anno 1990-2000.

One has now imported a large number of muslim immigrants to the city. These will settle down NOT in innerstaden but in suburbs. Some friction rises in the very beginning : the local white trash (of which I was a part of) living in the suburbs leaves complaints of the incoming muslim immigrants. Right as well , complaints are made regarding muslim immigrants’ criminality. It is shown , in late 90′s , that they are grossly overrepresented in crime statistics.

Now … guess 2 times , which ones are the journos , academics and politicians (which all believe in multiculture) in innerstaden going to believe : the white retards or the muslims ? More like a rhetoric question , I’d say. Right as well , the crime stats are ignored , it is said that the overrepresentation is not statistically certain or some other pretexts.

Pay attention to the fact that the first areas to get in touch with these fenomens are the suburbs , such as Rinkeby , Fittja and likes. Too bad the messenger is the white underclass.

2. Phase two. Ca anno 2000-2009.

While the statistics stubbornly refuses to play ball with the multiculturalists , it is now admitted that yes , the muslims are grossly overrepresented in crime stats. But this where the department of sociology jumps in : that there are plenty of criminals in the muslim community is true , but this is due to powerty , joblessness and structural racism. Just make your pick – to suggest that the high crime rate is cultural is still an academic , journalistic and political suicide.

And still pay attention to the fact that innerstaden is NOT the area where the so to speak action is. It is not so that the high-income innerstaden is the first one to get the fruits of multiculture , and neither is it the second either – at phase 2 also middle class areas get to know the fruits.

3. Phase three. Ca anno 2010 ->

At this point , also the wealthy city centre with all the decisionmakers get a clue of what’s going on. Too bad to reverse whats been done is too late. It’s too late to call off all the appeasement to muslims. It’s too late to call off halal-meat and other appeasements. It’s to late to deport the criminal elements one has imported. You’ve bought it , moron.

_____________________________________________________________________

Having said that , I can however confirm that there IS a way to deal with the muslims , and that is firmness. After all , not all muslims are criminals as you say , so true. But the basic problem is that their culture simply does not understand the general pussyness. When you give in to their demands , they are not going to become nicer for that. No , in the contrary : that you give in is intrepreeted as weakness and as a green light to demand more.

Right as well lenient punishments for crime are also intrepreeted as weakness. They gave you 1 year in prison for a rape ? Oh , that law so means nothing. Did I get deported for that ? No ? That settles it , their laws are a joke. And they still pay me welfare … I’m the boss.

So Andy , they are a very stubborn population you are dealing with. You simply don’t assimilate folks from say , Morocco , by being nice , be so sure. They are not completely hopeless people , but you understand their culture exactly the wrong way around. All the appeasement , all the welfare and all the lenient punishments you give , they all make things worse. You mean to do good , but the culture you are dealing with works exactly the other way around.

#85 I have some expreiences of the “flower-hatted aunties”, bad, and I do not believe that suffocating the discussion is the answer. I have the book by Halla-Aho and even I read it like the devil does the bible, he usually has a reference point there. Opinion is offensive but why is that? Why is there not an offensive opinion say about the Russians in Finland? Now what the interpretation of the reference point is – thats what we disagree all of us. But I have stated many times that culture is culture. So if I champion allowing the Finns to be Finns – then I have to champion the X to be X. That is Finns have to be champions in Finland and X have to be champions in Xland. If Finns invade Xland and impose Finnish values on X thats imperialism. And if Xs come to Finland and demand Xland values that is… multiculturalism? I think it has to be 50/50 and quid pro quo.

#86 I do not know. The feeling was “you do not belong”.

@89 This is funny. You visited Walthamstow in London and had a feeling that you didn’t belong. Poor Hank.

Just spotted something skimming through the comments…

I guess he knows the russian culture very well, so doesn’t he see that the russians are the big proportion of the immigrants in Finland, or haven’t he heard about the protest of the russian youth in Helsinki

If you mean the demonstration last week, Halla-aho was there to watch it and argue with the protesters. I saw him there.

And yeah, if you wanna be famous, just say something bad about Jews and their lies about holocaust, or curse the islam.

Uh, right…

#91 For being all that kind of “multiculturalist paradise” it was pretty much not what everybody frothing over the benefits makes it sound like. More like segregated areas hostile at each other, sort of weird polarization in places. I didn’t analyze it too much though – I was more paying attention not being run over by a bus, honestly.

#89 Hank W :
***Why is there not an offensive opinion say about the Russians in Finland? ***

During the cold war there was a 400-pound gorilla in the living room : the 400 000 troops in the Leningrad military oblast.

That gorilla had a certain effect on finnish debate any way you slice it. I suppose the gorilla has lost some weight since then , but the debate still reminds the cold war style.

#88 It isn’t much different here in the sense of NIMBYism. Remember when the Espoo metro was discussed what one of the taglines was: “the metro will bring immigrants”. Seems our “suvaitsevaisto” has some peculiar double standards.

#94 What I think is that the political elite has been caught pants down with the internet. Its now starting to dawn upon them that people won’t forget. And that they can’t convince people of how things are by controlling the media. You look at the politicians who start writing blogs and then get all upset people say to them nasty things. Oh, anonymous writing should be banned they say. As if they’ve farted and now trying to catch it and put back. Some use the blogs quite well, some get upset, can’t debate, take things too personally and then start delving intodeleting all the opposing comments so all the comments are singing hosianna to their viewpoint. Same thing with newspapers, even they have had a bit longer time to adjust to the situation. But they know if they pass a turd article its going to be dissected. And they more and more have started to follow the blogosphere and bulletin boards to get their news. Only recently they’ve started to admit where they get their news from, the Muropaketti As I say: http://www.nullwave.net/belief.jpg

It is quite surprising how many people are still computer-illiterate, or rather internet-illiterate in Finland, especially people who make legislation about it. Though thats not surprising, we have politicians making decisions over traffic planning that don’t have a licence.

hmm.. http://www.aamulehti.fi/uutiset/kotimaa/138298.shtml

It’s all about the children…
http://tundratabloid.blogspot.com/2009/04/islamic-pedophilia-in-finland-imam-wed.html

Finnish green party member displays his idiocy….
http://tundratabloid.blogspot.com/2009/04/finnish-greens-mp-says-on-blog.html

How dare you…***INSULT*** the memory of V.I.LENIN ***KABOOOOOM***
http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Explosion+damages+Lenin+statue+at+Finland+Station+in+St++Petersburg/1135244890258

#99: any other links?

#99: He is merely saying that it would be acceptable de jure, much like genocide of Palestinians is acceptable de facto in Israel. Greetings to Kenny, the armchair geneticist extraordinaire.

jaakkeli:
“And yeah, if you wanna be famous, just say something bad about Jews and their lies about holocaust, or curse the islam.

Uh, right…”

Now come on, hasn’t a “multiculturalism-critical blog” been the claim to fame of every wannabe-Tuksu of the internets lately?

Indeed, the main stream media is trying to shut down every 10000 or so of them much in the same fashion as the demons that haunt Ms. Tukiainen.

The local imam got a bad case of foot-in-mouth diease. The opposing voice is one humane rights lawyer Mohamed Husein who causes writhing and angst to the flower-hatted aunties by stating such obscenities that “giving way to extremists is not beneficial”.

More propaganda.

http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/idblog/2009/01/21/israel-to-fund-army-of-bloggers/

#102:”#99: He is merely saying that it would be acceptable de jure, much like genocide of Palestinians is acceptable de facto in Israel. Greetings to Kenny, the armchair geneticist extraordinaire.”

Freeriden Franklin’s street cred is as sound as his claims of a “genocide” being committed against a Palestinian population that has been expanding at a regular rate since it’s been monitored by international bodies. KGS

Kenny:
“Freeriden Franklin’s street cred is as sound as his claims of a “genocide” being committed against a Palestinian population”

Well, you can only commit genocide when humans are involved, right? Otherwise it’s just plain ol’ extinction. Not that I’m an expert on matters biological like you.

You are not much of an expert on anything relatd to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict..you speak a big game, but offer very little of value to the debate. I’m sure most people have you figured out.

I wasn’t aware that there was a debate going on. Anyways, it has been established that the actions of the SS-Totenkopfverbände were legal and completely moral. Yay. Screw that “crimes against humanity” hippie BS.