yeah I was thinking the same this morning when I read this and I was laughing at that Kuopio Director, who makes as much sense as those who still think that individual Tax information should be freely available though Veropörssi or the Pirate Bay.

Fuck, I swear that Savo is a freak factory… Maybe we need to move to Cuba where everyone earns the same money and gets the same shitty service.

Doctors putting themselves first… now THAT is a novel thought

Why to stay away from “politics” Phil? It was more fun when you’re in. Regarding YLE news I have long ago noticed that is a channel for propaganda or brain washing. This is a the place where “news” about effects of alcohol consumption in Finland appear every week (almost). It used to be more decent. I remember that news abotu how most of the wage earners in Finland would give up the 1% income tax in 2009 to reduce the troubled economy (http://www.yle.fi/uutiset/news/2008/12/many_finns_would_relinquish_tax_cuts_to_lift_slumping_economy_455926.html). lol!

These doctors are STILL helping people, just for a different company basically. It would be different if these doctor’s were giving up healthcare and instead, directing gay porn. Then we could say they’re putting themselves first more.

Oh and btw, the economy is going down the shitter cause all us good businesspeople are working for Nokia instead of the state.

Doctors, teachers, soliders, police and firemen are needed in a different fashion than Nokia employers. How does rental police, rental firemen and rental teachers sound to you? Would you feel more safe with having a rental police? A police that would serve the one who pays more? We could outsource our defence forces, let’s just buy the services from Blackwater. They will help us when the shit hits the fan.

Doctors are meant to be doctors, not businessmen. Their job is to cure people, not to market themselves in order to get paid. There is no law that requires you to be a doctor, or a police officer. If you want to put yourself first, you choose another profession.

Not long ago the nurses said they won’t work under these current conditions, the government suggested a law that would force the nurses to work under those conditions. Anyone recalls this? It was not long ago. Where’s the government now? Now when the doctors are doing the same?

Not only that, but these doctors are also suggesting that moving towards the American system would solve everything.

Unites States of America is the only wealthy industrialized country in the world not having universal health care. Now Obama and majority of the democrats support the idea of having a universal health care system. Why is this? There has to be a reason for it, right?

Could the reason be that world wide, universal health care systems have proven to be more effective than the private systems? Universal health care systems favour preventive health care.

Private practitioners will do the exact opposite. They will do anything that can be done to keep the cash flowing. Preventive health care is not part of private practitioner’s vocabulary.

Oh and socialist ideology is everything but failing. Democracy will lead into solidarity, which will lead into socialism. Many who oppose having more government control are dancing on tables when they hear news like this. They will say I told you so. They fail to see that the problem is not having more government control, the problems is having a bad government.
Having less government control is just what the Republicans are for. Where did that get the americans? Giving more power to private corporations and we will end up having less democracy. Less power for the people. You won’t vote who get’s to be your boss in a private corporation. Socialism has always risen out of the failure of capitalism. Too bad people have a short memory.

lol to the comment above

Well we could always adapt the Canadian model and ban private practices…

On the issue of health care in the US compared to other countries… There’s an easy to digest Frontline documentary on pbs.org on this:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/view/
Click on “Sick around the world”

Also read this related article from the same source:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/themes/doctors.html

Markus.

#6

There used to be no private practices. Back in the old days, the health care system was rock solid and working flawlessly. The problems begun after doctors were allowed to practice privately in public hospitals without paying to the hospital. They are not truly controlled by the market force, which makes them look more effective than they really are.

They should not be allowed to practice in tax funded hospitals free of charge, they should not be entitled to treat patients with national health insurance, they should not be entitled to ANY benefits from the government.

If you want to be a private practitioner, you build your own bloody hospital, and your patients pay for their treatment themselves instead of having KELA pay for it and THEN we’ll see just how cost effective it really is.

“Doctors are meant to be doctors, not businessmen.”

LOL, who are you ? Mother Theresa Go to Cuba where you can serve society and your entire family can live under a tin roof

Heck, dont stop there…. in the latest survey, the happiest people on Earth live in Gabon, and in Dominican Republic.

When people are ill, they want service and clearly the public service is inferior, so private market was created to serve that sector.

Clearly people are willing to pay a premium for that service and thus create incentives for doctors to serve there and earn more money.

Nothing wrong with that

#7

That didn’t even include France which is said to be the number 1 state in universal health care in the world.

“They should not be allowed to practice in tax funded hospitals free of charge, they should not be entitled to treat patients with national health insurance, they should not be entitled to ANY benefits from the government.”

Totally AGREE

This is the real problem… Why do they get government benefits when they are in private practice ?????????

As a matter of fact, they should be required to work for the government in exchange for the free education they get for a period of time equal to at least the sum of money spent in training them plus interest.

Then if they want to go into private practice, then let them start a business on their own, just like everyone does.

#9

Who are you then? Satan?

Why should I go to Cuba? Most European countries have a similar system to Cuba but also DEMOCRACY which makes it work. I’d never want to live or work in the U.S. as things are so much better here in Europe. We’re not slaves for the giant corporations here. I don’t have to work for Nokia to get some medical/dental care or pension.

In the latest survey, the happiest people on Earth live in Denmark. Check your facts.
http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=4086092&page=1

The U.S. health care system doesn’t work. Globally acknowledged fact among doctors.

You’re free to keep living in that system if you don’t feel there’s anything wrong with it. But you are going to have a hard time trying to convince me to live in that system.

Phil, the socialist ideology is everything but failing.

Democracy will lead into solidarity, which will lead into socialism.

Many who oppose having more government control are dancing on tables when they hear news like this. They will say I told you so. They fail to see that the problem is not having more government control, the problem is having a bad government.

Having less government control is just what the Republicans are for. Where did that get America? Giving more power to private corporations and we will end up having less democracy. Less power for the people. You won’t vote who get’s to be your boss in a private corporation.

Socialism has always risen out of the failure of capitalism. Too bad people have a short memory.

Phil, the socialist ideology is not failing.

Democracy will lead into solidarity and solidarity will lead into socialism.

People who oppose having more government control are dancing on tables when they hear news like this. They will say I told you so. They fail to see that the problem is not having more government control, the problem is having a bad government.

Having less government control is just what the Republicans are for. Where did that get America? Giving more power to private corporations and we will end up having less democracy. Less power for the people. You won’t vote who get’s to be your boss in a private corporation. You can’t veto against your work moving to China. You build a factory to secure work in the neighbourhood and all the sudden the owners take it away just because it’s cheaper to use child labour in China. And there’s nothing you can do about it. That is why we NEED government control, more importantly we need great governments.

Socialism has always risen out of the failure of capitalism. Too bad people have a short memory.

@12

No, I am the teacher you never

Sure pick the facts that suit you best

How about this:

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/1229-09.htm

So it is not Gabon but Nigeria who has the happiest people on Earth… Did you not imply that seeking wealth is somehow “evil”

So there bro… catch a 1 hr flight from Gabon and move to Nigeria… you’ll love it there.

I think I’ll stop by Denmark and check how a doctor makes about twice the money they make here in Finland.

Why dont check that fact out

Meanwhile, back in Paradise:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/17/health/views/17essa.html

@14

Nice article…

I love this quote “Doctors are working harder and faster to maintain income, even as staff salaries and costs of living continue to increase.”

These fucking guys are pulling 300K+…OK so they pay like 50K in insurance, but still 250K is not bad money at all, and they are complaining ?

If they don’t like it I am sure some underpaid Finnish physician from Kela would love the opportunity to change places for a while, but ahhh… The US gov and the AMA wont let them, so fuck them

#13

“From 2006 to 2008, surveys ranked Denmark as “the happiest place in the world,” based on standards of health, welfare, and education. The 2008 Global Peace Index survey ranks Denmark as the second most peaceful country in the world, after Iceland. Denmark was also ranked as the least corrupt country in the world in the 2008 Corruption Perceptions Index, sharing a top position with Sweden and New Zealand. In 2008, the capital and largest city, Copenhagen, was ranked the most livable city in the world by Monocle magazine.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denmark

@4,

Well put! Couldn’t have written it any better. Basic services should not be a commodity. They should be universal and available to everyone regardless of their socioeconomical status. Even the United States has finally started to realize this and slowly they’re trying to correct the huge mess they’ve made out of their healthcare system.

In a privatized, market force based healthcare system the main goal is not to increase health and prevent illness. The main goal is to make as much money as possible. That’s a fundamental difference which totally dictates how the private sector funtions. They’re not there to help people. They’re there to make the stock owners happy. This is in direct contradiction with the Hippocratic oath, for example.

Almost none of these “private doctors” really work in the private sector. Instead they do public healthcare as part of national healthcare system. Their work has just been been outsourced to private companies. Lääkäriliitto is really the best freaking lobby group in the country. They got the idiots politicians giving public healtcare facilities free/nearly free from rent for private doctor use.

Dumb move that right-wing politics have brought us, and only benefits greedy doctors. Vote more Kokoomus and we’ll have more idiocy like this.

@17 Another Commie speaking …

Got news for you Eisntein, the reason of why you are employed right now is because whoever hired you did it in exchange for your economic value and potential to bring profits.

That is the only reason why business exist… to make money for stockholder, owners, or whoever sank money to start the business.

Dont think for a moment that your employer would fire you if the cost of keeping you was more than the value you brought to the business..

Like I said, want welfare and equality, move to Cuba. Too bad there is no more Soviet Union or that would be another option.

And oh… regarding those stupid happiness surveys, we have already discussed this on this forum ad-nauseaum. What makes for happiness is totally arbitrary.

Just ask how happy the people in Iceland are right now that they dont got any money

They ranked consistently on the top five along with your Danish friends just last year.

is Anonymous bipolar?

@19,

The reason I’m employed is not profit. The reason is that the community has seen it to be important to collect taxes for basic healthcare services and employ me as a healthcare professional to increase their health. Public healthcare’s purpose is not to make huge direct profits. Keeping the workforce fit and in good working condition does wonders for the GDP. Public healthcare produces health and that translates into increased production. The healthier people are the more productive they’ll also be.

Ha, ha, ha… you think business hire people to lose money … You said it yourself :”Public healthcare’s purpose is not to make huge direct profits…

Ever heard of non-profit organizations ? Even they need to cover the cost of employing people.

Maybe YOU dont think you are making a profit and that is fine, but not your employer.

Even the Finnish government runs a surplus. That is called making money. Where do you think salary raises come from ?

“Doctors are meant to be doctors, not businessmen. Their job is to cure people, not to market themselves in order to get paid. There is no law that requires you to be a doctor, or a police officer. If you want to put yourself first, you choose another profession.”
– Would you rather these doctors be worrying about your health or worrying about affording their car and house payments. Whether there is enough money to spend on themselves and go on vacation. Yes, vacation. Look at the job these people do. Look at your attitude. Doctors are rewarded with working with sick people, of which some are probably really miserable to deal with. Lots of people in Finland do their job half-assed. You want your doctor to treat your operation the same way?

“Not only that, but these doctors are also suggesting that moving towards the American system would solve everything.”
– How about asking that of people who have lived under both systems. Most everyone with health insurance in the US already has access to Finnish-quality health care or better. As for those without in the US, they are entitled to care as well. Just ask all those illegal aliens in the countries having babies and paying nothing for the hospital care!

While the US system is not good for everyone, neither is the Finnish system. What a joke, the Finnish medical system is failing because of the doctors. And maybe someone can explain how denying surgeons access to hospital space to conduct operations after they met their public service requirement is going to improve service. Do you really think this will get them to work more for no extra pay? the Government permits this because it means that they get more out of each doctor and don’t have to train as many in the end……. (Also keep sthem from going abroad as well)

#19

Oh, so now the happiness surveys are stupid because the it turns out the “communist” European Union and it’s member states tend to make people happy?

At least we won’t have to live in a fucking refrigerator under some goddamn bridge if we lose our job, like people in the States.

#23

Are you living in some sort of utopia? Police officers have a shitty job. Firemen have a shitty job. Soldiers have a shitty job. But someone has to do it, and it has to be done around the clock. If the doctors start with this kind of talk, it’s only a matter of time until policemen, firemen and soldiers want the same. More money, more vacation. You’re being murdered/your house is on fire? Well, we’re not sure if we feel like helping you.. we don’t feel we get paid enough.. and we need more vacation.

These are not jobs comparable to making cars. These jobs are needed to secure the basic needs of society. If you have a problem with it, CHOOSE ANOTHER PROFESSION.

If people without insurance in America are entitled to care, then why do people bother taking the insurance at all? Sounds a bit like you’re not telling everything.

Americans with insurance have access to Finnish-quality health care but it still costs money. The company does not pay everything. Around 20% of Americans don’t have a health insurance, either because they can’t afford it or they got the “denied” stamp.

And of course it looks like there are no waiting lines BECAUSE 20% OF THE POPULATION IS MISSING. People won’t go into a hospital for any minor reasons as they do here, because it costs money. Here about half of the people waiting for a doctor have a headache and want to see a doctor because of it.

Meanwhile in America, people with insurance may end up fighting with the insurance company in court because the company refuses to pay for a certain treatment. It’s basically a lot of fighting and arguing with and between companies and that as well costs money. Some people just don’t have money, or brains to do the fighting, I hope you understand that much.

The Finnish medical system is not going to fail just because a few selfish doctors refuse to work under reasonable conditions. This mess will most likely get solved simply by training more doctors. There clearly isn’t enough qualified docs out there if these mofos are whining for these reasons.

Sooo..US healthcare is a prime example of what happens when people think of their financial well-being instead of failing socialist ideologies, and we know thats shit. And now healthcare here is supposedly (finnish media likes fearmongering) in peril because of people who behave like their US counterparts, and this is somehow the fault of socialist healthcare?

Wow, the EXACT same article just appeared in Canada.

Yep another Nanny state that is folding to a market system.

Those selfish Doc’s, they work 40 hrs for the Slave state, then another 20 for themselves and get critized for any extra hard work.

Extra pay for big dollars is going to bring the nanny state down.

“Around 20% of Americans don’t have a health insurance,”

that is not correct, 13% refuse the buy and are thus covered under the free system

#26

We are not folding to a market system. This was just a statement of one, it was panned by ministers and other experts, as expected.

Here’s some bedtime reading to you, have fun
http://www.nchc.org/facts/coverage.shtml
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicaid
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_the_United_States

#26

This was just a statement of one, it was panned by ministers and other experts, as expected.

http://www.nchc.org/facts/coverage.shtml
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicaid
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_the_United_States

#26
Just an opinion of one, that was panned by ministers and other experts as expected.
http://www.nchc.org/facts/coverage.shtml
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicaid
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_the_United_States

HS is full of crap moralistic banter, which a journalistic monopoly allows and a wish for political influence dictates. As long as HS can find any “useful idiot” to voice the banter, they will quote their find.

But back to public health care:

Idea of public-private co-ownership of health care organizations doesn’t come from blue air, but is a continuation to ideas that have been floating around for years. This last one is just worse than the earlier ones, eg. the one suggested by SITRA.

The idea of reforming public health care according to “tilaaja-tuottaja” -organization (don’t know the correct English translation, maybe purchaser-provider separation) has been around for a while. SITRA claims that that organizational form could save Finnish taxpayers 1 billion (“1 miljardi”) euros per year without quality decreases in health care.

The idea is to apply ideas from public-private-partnership (PPP) literature, where the activities and risky decisions are separated by a firewall in such a manner that the whole system has correct incentives to efficient and high quality production. It doesn’t matter whether it is health care, school and transportation infrastructure,security or any traditionally publicly produced service.

The principle can be applied with either private or public health care provider organizations, but probably the private provider organizations would be more innovative in the longer run (and thus more efficient).

SITRA published their report under the name “MAISEMA-raportti”. It’s been applied to practice in Raisio, and is sometimes called Raisio-model. The ideas were definitely not invented in Raisio or even SITRA, but have been known for much longer.

“If the doctors start with this kind of talk, it’s only a matter of time until policemen, firemen and soldiers want the same.”
‘
There is one problem in your brilliant logic… you have to be intelligent and go to university for many years to become a physician.

Anyway, keep up defending your nanny state. The medical system is in deep shit already.

Holy shit… Did a Finn finally say this ???

“HS is full of crap moralistic banter, which a journalistic monopoly allows and a wish for political influence dictates. As long as HS can find any “useful idiot” to voice the banter, they will quote their find.”

There may be light at the end of the tunnel

Just a small comment: can Anonymous get use of this public or private health system? Seems he is getting rather messed up – commenting own comments.

Would you feel more safe with having a rental police? A police that would serve the one who pays more?

Yes. You just described a ‘security guard’.

Doctors are meant to be doctors, not businessmen. Their job is to cure people, not to market themselves in order to get paid. There is no law that requires you to be a doctor, or a police officer. If you want to put yourself first, you choose another profession.

That’s simply not true, and it seems that most doctors in Finland would agree with me.

Not long ago the nurses said they won’t work under these current conditions, the government suggested a law that would force the nurses to work under those conditions. Anyone recalls this?

I wrote about that back then, and sided with the nurses.

Preventive health care is not part of private practitioner’s vocabulary.

Wha??? Of course it is. Preventative healthcare brings in lots of $$$$, surely businesses will compete to provide these services. In fact it seems that preventative healthcare is the first to be cut whenever the state is short on cash.

Blaming medical professionals for the state’s shortfalls is asinine. Pay these people a fair wage, they probably the most important workers in our society, they’ve earned it.

Phil, with all due respect: most doctors have earned the fair wage. The Finnish ones are so uneducated that it scares me everytime I have to ask their diagnosis. And see them reading it first from the medicine book.

@33″Blaming medical professionals for the state’s shortfalls is asinine. Pay these people a fair wage, they probably the most important workers in our society, they’ve earned it.”

Current situation is partly caused by doctors themselves. Nothing wrong with blaming them.

Also the original article in finnish, the english translation in question is much shorter, mentions that most of these doctors actually didn’t jump ship because of low pay. They get to work less hours and have more say in when they work their hours than they would if communes employd them.

Oh, and your comment about fair wage is hilarious, as if all medical doctors didn’t allready earn fair wage, unless we have very different definition for ‘fair’. Anybody wanting to earn more can fly over Atalntic, get a american med school education that comes with 150k+ student loans. The ones that get their super-expensive education for free can settle for their 5000€/month average salary. That’s definately a fair wage as far as I’m concerned.

Current situation is partly caused by doctors themselves. Nothing wrong with blaming them.

How exactly? If Nokia didn’t pay their employees enough, good people would leave, the company would fail. Whose fault would it be? The unhappy employees, or the company?

Oh, and your comment about fair wage is hilarious, as if all medical doctors didn’t allready earn fair wage, unless we have very different definition for ‘fair’.

Well let’s say, “market value”. Obviously they’re not getting paid the market value since so many are moving to the private sector.

Anybody wanting to earn more can fly over Atalntic, get a american med school education that comes with 150k+ student loans.

…or just move to the Finnish private sector.

@32

Looks like there are several anonymous, me being of them, but I assure you that I am not writing all anonymous comments

@34

“Anybody wanting to earn more can fly over Atalntic, get a american med school education that comes with 150k+ student loans.”

If you are smart enough that is what you do.

So what if you have a huge student loan… over the years, you’ll be making a LOT more money than if you stay here working for the nanny state

@35 “How exactly? If Nokia didn’t pay their employees enough, good people would leave, the company would fail. Whose fault would it be? The unhappy employees, or the company?”

Since mid 90′s Lääkäriliitto has been trying stop or limit almost every action goverment has done to increase amount of doctors. Lääkäriliitto’s long term strategy has been to create shortage of doctors.

“Well let’s say, “market value”. Obviously they’re not getting paid the market value since so many are moving to the private sector.”

There’s almost nothing market value in these new small doctor ´collectives’ that have been set up to outsource the national health system. They couldn’t function in any real market. Basicly they are perfect examples of the corporate socialism that privatazation of public services allways tends to lead into.

#33

“Yes. You just described a ’security guard’”

If you feel more comfortable around security guards than police then good for you. Just don’t ask me to feel the same way.

“That’s simply not true, and it seems that most doctors in Finland would agree with me.”

Maybe you need to read the newer article. The idea was panned by most medical experts.

“I wrote about that back then, and sided with the nurses”

So are the nurses working for the private sector now? If not, what gives doctors the right?

“Wha??? Of course it is. Preventative healthcare brings in lots of $$$$, surely businesses will compete to provide these services. In fact it seems that preventative healthcare is the first to be cut whenever the state is short on cash.”

There are plenty of statistics and calculations online to prove you wrong. Preventive health care does not bring in lots of money in the long run. It keeps the nation more healthier. There will be less sick people, less work for doctors and people in the medicine industry. In our system, less tax money needed on health care.

“Blaming medical professionals for the state’s shortfalls is asinine. Pay these people a fair wage, they probably the most important workers in our society, they’ve earned it.”

There is a certain amount of money given to health care, if the doctors are being paid more then somebody else is going to be paid less. Probably the nurses.

If you want everyone still being paid the same, except more money for the doctors, we’d have to put more money on health care. In that case some other public sector is going to have less. If you want things to be like they are, still giving more for the doctors, we’d have to pay more taxes.

I’m sure a guy like you can do simple mathematics. There is only so much money we have available. If somebody is given more, somebody else is given less.

Finland and most European countries are for equality. Also equality of income. If you want to live in inequality and inequality of income, there already is one America. We don’t need another one. If you like the concept of “me” then America is your place. If you like the concept of “we” then Europe is your place.

#35

“How exactly? If Nokia didn’t pay their employees enough, good people would leave, the company would fail. Whose fault would it be? The unhappy employees, or the company?”

True. There’s a limit however. If you ask too much you won’t even get the job in the first place. So people applying for the job are reasonable. They know there is a line outside wanting the same job. Unlike in this doctor case. There is no line outside, they know it and can ask what they want basically. We need to have more doctors available to make them reasonable again.

“Well let’s say, “market value”. Obviously they’re not getting paid the market value since so many are moving to the private sector.”

They’re not working in any private sector. They practice in a public hospital, their patients are covered by the national health insurance, the only difference is the name really. It’s not going to save any money that’s for sure. The doctors previously working for the public sector want to start a private practice in hope of getting a deal from the hospital they were already working for. How does it save money? How does it make anything work any better? It’s the same guy under a different name.

I trust this is about dodging taxes, once again. These mofos are getting their education for free because of the taxes, but they don’t want to do the same for others after graduation. The more I think about it, the more I want to kick them out of the country.

So are the nurses working for the private sector now? If not, what gives doctors the right?

What gives doctors the right to work in the private sector? Ummm…basic human freedoms? You can’t force anyone to work somewhere against their will. (well, you can, it’s just called “slavery”)

There are plenty of statistics and calculations online to prove you wrong. Preventive health care does not bring in lots of money in the long run. It keeps the nation more healthier. There will be less sick people, less work for doctors and people in the medicine industry. In our system, less tax money needed on health care.

If that were true, why doesn’t the Finnish public healthcare system boost up preventative care? Your theory says it would save the state a LOT of much needed money. Yet, preventative care in Finland is boderline non-existent.

There is a certain amount of money given to health care, if the doctors are being paid more then somebody else is going to be paid less. Probably the nurses

Well that’s a problem with the system and NOT with doctors. Sounds to me like not enough budget are being put into Finnish public healthcare.

If you want everyone still being paid the same, except more money for the doctors, we’d have to put more money on health care. In that case some other public sector is going to have less.

That’s one of the massive problems with the bloated welfare state, there isn’t enough money so these vital services are “teetering on edge of collapse”

I’m sure a guy like you can do simple mathematics. There is only so much money we have available. If somebody is given more, somebody else is given less.

Maybe the goal should be to trim down the welfare state? Businesses do this all the time.

Finland and most European countries are for equality. Also equality of income. If you want to live in inequality and inequality of income, there already is one America.

Drive from the short distance from ghetto East Helsinki to prosperous Espoo – inequality is abundant in Finland. This country isn’t the equally-poor shithole it was a few decades ago.

We need to have more doctors available to make them reasonable again.

Immigration? Or maybe increasing the salary so doctors dont take flight to foreign countries?

The doctors previously working for the public sector want to start a private practice in hope of getting a deal from the hospital they were already working for. How does it save money? How does it make anything work any better? It’s the same guy under a different name.

Again, not a problem with the doctors, you’ve identified a potential problem with the *system*.

I trust this is about dodging taxes, once again. These mofos are getting their education for free because of the taxes, but they don’t want to do the same for others after graduation. The more I think about it, the more I want to kick them out of the country.

So should all Finnish university graduates be forced to work for the state for a few years? If not, why just doctors?

look its simple

Nanny state… long lines, everyone gets to wait, the bill payers get to line up behind the drunks

Market system. Same long line, its just that the bill payers move to the front

its all about the gatekeeper, and who they let go in first.

simple market forces at work no matter what system you have.

Finnish “educated” doctors can take care of the dogs as far as I am concerned, but not humans. At least half of those idiots should be sent abroad to LEARN the medicine properly.Before they start giving their “diagnosis”.

“So should all Finnish university graduates be forced to work for the state for a few years? If not, why just doctors?”

So should all finnish university graduates get free work space, expensive medical equipment, office space and medical facilities for their “reppufirma” (backbag firm) after they graduate (the term coming from assests of these firms which consiste of a laptop shoved in a backbag)?

You just don’t seem to understand that these doctors and their business have absolutely nothing fuck-so-ever to do with ‘private sector’, or the ‘market’. That famous invisible hand should slap your face, and slap it hard, for using those terms in this context of looting of public property.

Only reason their bogus ‘private firms’ can pay them more is because goverment and communities have been bullied into paying all investments their ‘private’ busineses would require in a real market. And after they punch their cards they get to use those facilities for their ‘private’ clinincs. Maybe corporate socialism is too fancy term for these reppufirma’s, but that s what going on here. One of the best earning porrtion of population getting transfer of wealth from taxpayers property.

Glad to see Phil finally found the little socialist hiding deep inside his soul. After all, finnish doctors are the contemporary equavalents of little Tommy’s toiling in Applachian coal mines back in the 1880′s. Lets hope these deprived souls earning only 5000€/month will one day finally make a decent living.

“So should all Finnish university graduates be forced to work for the state for a few years? If not, why just doctors?”

So should all finnish university graduates receive free office space, medical faculties and medical instruments for their reppufirmas/backbag firms? (the term coming from the fact that all assests of these firms fit into a bag)

What you don’t seem to understand is that these ‘private’ businesess have absolutely fucking nothing to do private business or the market. That famous invinsible hand should slap your face, and slap it hard, for using terms like ‘market’ and ‘private’ for this looting of private property.

These firms can pay more salary because goverment and communities have been bullied into paying all investements that these firms would need to do in a real market. Same doctors doing same jobs as they used to do, but getting extra pay thanks to corporate socialism. And after these doctor punch out of work…they get to use same facilities for their ‘private’ clinic.

Nothing else but transfer of taxpayers wealth to allready one of the highest earning portions of population. Still I’m glad that Phil finally found the socialist hiding deep inside his soul. Finnish doctors are the contemporary equavalents of little Tommys toiling in Applachian coal mines back in the 1880′s. Lets hope that these deprived souls, only earning 5000€/month, will get even more goverment subsidies for their ‘private enterprises’ and one day can earn decent living.

“These mofos are getting their education for free because of the taxes, but they don’t want to do the same for others after graduation. The more I think about it, the more I want to kick them out of the country.”

Phil just beat me to it, but just who is not getting a free education in Finland? Doctors and nurses have to spend more time in school to learn more difficult things than most other students for a little more in income in the end. However, the added time does not match the extra amount of income. (Some MSC students f-off in school up until the point of their free education allowance expires. If they wanted to be a student for that long they should have gone to be doctors instead.)

Anyway as for “do the same for others after graduation”, you mean pay high taxes right?

#40

“What gives doctors the right to work in the private sector? Ummm…basic human freedoms? You can’t force anyone to work somewhere against their will. (well, you can, it’s just called “slavery”)”

Oh they have every right to work in the private sector. It’s just that these guys are not trying to do that, they just want to practice in a public sector as private. There’s a difference.

“If that were true, why doesn’t the Finnish public healthcare system boost up preventative care? Your theory says it would save the state a LOT of much needed money. Yet, preventative care in Finland is boderline non-existent.”

Bad politics. They do this in the UK and France, and it’s working great. Finland is once again trailing behind.

“Well that’s a problem with the system and NOT with doctors. Sounds to me like not enough budget are being put into Finnish public healthcare.”

It is given what people need. Not what doctors want.

“That’s one of the massive problems with the bloated welfare state, there isn’t enough money so these vital services are “teetering on edge of collapse””

No, they are teetering on edge what is necessary for the people.

“Maybe the goal should be to trim down the welfare state? Businesses do this all the time.”

Businesses can practice that in America already. They are free to practice business over there.

“Drive from the short distance from ghetto East Helsinki to prosperous Espoo – inequality is abundant in Finland. This country isn’t the equally-poor shithole it was a few decades ago.”

Says a guy who has been living what.. 6 years here?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality

#41

“Immigration? Or maybe increasing the salary so doctors dont take flight to foreign countries?”

They can take as much flights abroad as they want for all I care. There will still be enough doctors graduating long after they’re gone. Not everyone wants to practice abroad, where did you get that idea?

“Again, not a problem with the doctors, you’ve identified a potential problem with the *system*.”

How’s that? A few doctors being greedy isn’t a problem within the system. They are free to live elsewhere, if they see it as a problem. Majority of people don’t see our system as a problem, how hard is that to comprehend? We have democracy, people vote for what they want.

“So should all Finnish university graduates be forced to work for the state for a few years? If not, why just doctors?”

Not just doctors. Police and army personnel and everyone in a public job such as any administration job like customs or border guard are doing exactly that. For some reason they just don’t see it as a problem. They consider it as a public service.

Phil: “So should all Finnish university graduates be forced to work for the state for a few years? If not, why just doctors?”

So should all finnish university graduates receive free office space, medical faculties and medical instruments for their reppufirmas/backbag firms? (the term coming from the fact that all assets of these firms fit into a bag)

What you don’t seem to understand is that these ‘private’ businesess have absolutely fucking nothing to do private business or the market. That famous invisible hand should slap your face, and slap it hard, for using terms like ‘market’ and ‘private’ for this looting of public property.

These firms can pay more salary because goverment and communities have been bullied into paying all investments that these firms would need to do in a real market. Same doctors doing same jobs as they used to do, but getting extra pay thanks to corporate socialism. And after these doctor punch out of work…they get to use same facilities for their ‘private’ clinic.

Nothing else but transfer of tax payers wealth to all ready one of the highest earning portions of the population. Still, I’m glad that Phil finally found the socialist hiding deep inside his soul. Finnish doctors are the contemporary equavalents of little Tommys toiling in Applachian coal mines back in the 1880′s. Lets hope that these deprived souls, only earning 5000€/month, will get even more goverment subsidies for their ‘private enterprises’ and thus can one day earn a decent living.

Ps. Comments not working propely. Hope this isn’t a double post.

#42

Market system. Short lines, nobody has to wait, the bill payers are all there is because the poor won’t get treatment at all.

Nanny state. First come, first served. No matter what kind of incomes you have.

Democracy. More poor people than rich. Poor have more votes. Poor have more rights. Democracy is a bitch isn’t it.

I’m not very good at explaining things, so I’ll try to explain with mathematics. Here’s something for ya’ll to think about.

A = worker’s wage
B = tool cost
C = material
X = shareholder’s wage
D = price of the product

Here’s our current system:

A+B+C = D

Here’s the proposed system:

A+B+C+X = D

Can you please explain me how would it save money, or make anything better? If D is staying the same, where is the money taken away and with what cost?

“That’s one of the massive problems with the bloated welfare state, there isn’t enough money”

Oh really? Last time I checked the European Union was right there with the USA. Ranking #1 in GDP, with a labour force of 221.5 million (US 154.5 million).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_European_Union
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_United_States

Maybe it’s time to pull your head out of your ass, Phil?

“That’s one of the massive problems with the bloated welfare state, there isn’t enough money”

Oh really? Last time I checked the European Union was right there with the USA. Ranking #1 in GDP, with a labour force of 221.5 million (US 154.5 million).
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_European_Union
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_United_States

Maybe it’s time to pull your head out of your ass, Phil?

“That’s one of the massive problems with the bloated welfare state, there isn’t enough money”

Oh really? EU. Ranking #1 in GDP, with a labour force of 221.5 million (US 154.5 million).
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_European_Union
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_United_States

Maybe it’s time to pull your head out of your ass, Phil?

“That’s one of the massive problems with the bloated welfare state, there isn’t enough money”

Oh really? EU. Ranking #1 in GDP, with a labour force of 221.5 million (US 154.5 million).

en wikipedia org/wiki/Economy_of_the_European_Union
en wikipedia org/wiki/Economy_of_the_United_States

Maybe it’s time to pull your head out of your ass, Phil?

“one of the massive problems with the bloated welfare state, there isn’t enough money”

Oh really? European Union, ranking #1 in GDP, with a labour force of 221.5 million (US 154.5 million). Maybe it’s time to pull your head out of your ass?

en wikipedia org/wiki/Economy_of_the_European_Union
en wikipedia org/wiki/Economy_of_the_United_States

“Market system. Short lines, nobody has to wait, the bill payers are all there is because the poor won’t get treatment at all.

Nanny state. First come, first served. No matter what kind of incomes you have.”

- Right and the unemployed get there first because all the suckers are busy working.

- when my first kid was born I was living in Washington DC. The doctor’s office had three sign-in sheets. One for those with insurance. Two for those without who were being seen under one of two Government programs. If you had insurance you have to pay a co-pay. something like $15. The others paid nothing. I asked why they had no fee whatsoever. It was explained to me that if they charged $10-$15 most of the parents would not bother to bring their children in for checkups. THIS HERE IS A HUGE PART OF THE PROBLEM in that many don’t value a doctor’s time (or their children’s health) even to spend a small amount of money for the doctor’s time. Yet, they have no problem spending money on expensive cars, clothes and flat screen TVs. and yes, we got the same treatment. Oddly enough, they got better immunizations as the Government paid for the newer formulas where the insurance companies stuck mainly to those that had been around and were much cheaper.

#49

“THIS HERE IS A HUGE PART OF THE PROBLEM in that many don’t value a doctor’s time (or their children’s health) even to spend a small amount of money for the doctor’s time. Yet, they have no problem spending money on expensive cars, clothes and flat screen TVs.”

Americans have their priorities in a funny order.

It’s like what G.W.Bush said:

“Other “disappointments” cited by Mr Bush were the prisoner abuse scandal at Abu Ghraib, and “not having weapons of mass destruction” in Iraq”

news bbc co uk/2/hi/americas/7824731.stm

So it was very disappointing that Iraq DID NOT HAVE weapons of mass destruction. Pretty much sums it all up.. Americans want other countries to have weapons of mass destruction so they can go there, fight a war, destroy the weapons and be the heroes. Jesus fucking christ..

Look, people, it’s rather simple..

Privatized, market driven healthcare:
– First priority: to make money
– Tries to avoid: curing people (reduces profits)
– Answers to: stockholders
– Doesn’t cater to: people who can’t afford the prices

Public healthcare, maintained with tax money:
– First priority: to keep people healthy
– Tries to avoid: huge expences, inequality
– Answers to: the community / taxpayers
– Doesn’t cater to: – -

Not really that difficult to see which one serves the citizens and promotes democracy and equality.

“Not really that difficult to see which one serves the citizens and promotes democracy and equality.”

Not difficult to us, but to brainwashed people who have been hearing about the “red danger” ever since they were born.. it takes more than just providing proof.

Lots of people living in poverty just so that one guy can buy a yacht and lay on it’s deck rubbing sun lotion on his asshole the rest of his life, and these people don’t see anything wrong with that.

#51 Sounds great, except:

Public health care

First priority: Employ self, maintain minimum effort/payment -ratio, leading to sub-optimal efficiency of tax money inputs.
Tries to avoid: Cuts in own budget, therefore maximizes sunk cost investments that tie-in future spending
Answers to: Nobody directly, politicians indirectly
Doesn’t cater to: Wealthier individuals, whom they can convince to go to private provider for better quality service. All others, because they are captive customers and can be given the half-assed service and a bureaucratic run-around.

#53

Bullshit. If people really were unhappy with our health care system, it had been a huge theme in elections. The only theme concerning our health care system was launched by nurses and they also got what they wanted. But people (patients) had nothing to complain about.

So there you go, public health care answers directly to people, the voters. You have been a wonderful audience, thank you and good night.

> First priority: Employ self, maintain
> minimum effort/payment

I think it was actually the private doctors who said that the main reason they’re going private is because that way they can get away with doing far less work with the same amount of pay.

The only thing in the public healthcare system that people are complaining about is actually its systematical dismantling. People are saying that far too little resources are being put into healthcare. If the public healthcare system is “teetering on the edge of collapse” it’s because it has slowly been run down by the politicians and government officials who are playing lapdogs to the private sector and their corrupted lobbyists.

“So there you go, public health care answers directly to people, the voters.”

No it does not. It answers to nobody as they are just part of big Government. And don’t think that Government wants you healthy. the politicians need you to need their help. Really, how is it that despite throwing TRILLIONS of dollars at the poor, they are still, poor. As with healthcare, if everyone did their preventative care and paid attention to their health for a minute, instead of doing their best to destroy their bodies, then it would be much less difficult to be able to treat everyone. Instead, you have people who smoke, overdrink, eat poorly and so on clogging up the system.

Fred Fry:
“Oddly enough, they got better immunizations as the Government paid for the newer formulas where the insurance companies stuck mainly to those that had been around and were much cheaper.”

Nothing odd about that. The government generally provides better service while he private sector is mostly interested in every shekel they can squeeze out of you.

“No it does not. It answers to nobody as they are just part of big Government.”

Who do you think our government works for, and ultimately answers to?

“And don’t think that Government wants you healthy. the politicians need you to need their help.”

Why on earth they wouldn’t want healthy population? Are you suggesting we should vote someone out at next elections?

You’re not making any sense.

HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

WHAT!?

“No it does not. It answers to nobody as they are just part of big Government. And don’t think that Government wants you healthy.”

In a democratic state, WE ARE the government.

“the politicians need you to need their help.”

The politicians are eating out of our hands. If they don’t do what we tell them to, there will be new elections rather soon.

This is happening in Latvia as we speak, 10 000 people protesting against the right-wing government. They want them to resign and have new elections.

yle fi/uutiset/ulkomaat/2009/01/latviassa_suurmielenosoitus_hallitusta_vastaan_478799 html

“Really, how is it that despite throwing TRILLIONS of dollars at the poor, they are still, poor.”

Please provide some facts. I was born into a poor family and without our system it would be mathematically probable that I’d still be poor, having no education, probably in jail for stealing food and clothes and doing other “crimes”.

“As with healthcare, if everyone did their preventative care and paid attention to their health for a minute, instead of doing their best to destroy their bodies, then it would be much less difficult to be able to treat everyone. Instead, you have people who smoke, overdrink, eat poorly and so on clogging up the system.”

Are we now talking about Europeans or Americans? Where is this treating difficult/much less difficult/compared to what? Just an example, my fattest friends who also happen to have the worst way of life I have ever seen, have never been in a hospital. Quite the contrary, my friends who spend the most time in a hospital are all athletes.

“Who do you think our government works for, and ultimately answers to?”

Generally, people in government work to provide job security for themselves and provide favors to their allies. Sometimes that contributes to the overall success of the system, sometimes it doesn’t. It’s not very predictable. Finland’s public healthcare system has never been good, even before it became semi-privatized. Why would it suddenly become good, now, if more funding were to be thrown at it?

#61

Get real. Please. If people are unhappy with the person they voted for the last time, they are not making the same mistake twice. This conversation is now getting ridiculous.

“Why would it suddenly become good, now, if more funding were to be thrown at it?”

You must be joking, right?

Because there would be more healthcare professionals doing the work which would mean shorter waiting periods and less stressed professionals, for example. Doctors would have more time to spend for seeing patients. Mental health patients would receive more psychotherapy instead an increased dosage of pills. Nurses would have more time to bathe the elderly and to take them out for a stroll in the garden every once in a while, for example.

It’s not about any real lack of resources. It’s about lack of political will to support the Nordic welfare system. It’s all because of the neoliberal lobbyists such as you that whisper into the ears of the politicians and government officials.

When asked about the subject, Finns usually support maintaining the welfare state and its services. The problem lies in the people who are there, behind the scenes, promoting their own neoliberal agendas, all in the name of their god, the Market Forces.

People usually vote for candidates based on a wide variety of issues; health care is only one of those issues. Hence, with a politician you get a package deal. The probability that everyone in society will conspire and agree to vote for the ‘ideal’ candidate, who will attend to health care issues in the most effective way, is probably null.

Of course if things get bad enough (i.e. enough people get sick, with a plethora of illnesses, and don’t get proper care), they’ll vote for change. However, in absence of such a catastrophy, any impetus for change will come slowly. And even if it does come, then the politician will optimize his ‘solution’ to benefit his _other_ constituency (i.e. drug companies, service providers, etc.). Not necessarily the public he serves.

Whether or not his solution benefits you, the consumer, is questionable at best. That’s probably why governmental health care hasn’t acheived good results anywhere that it’s been tried. In fact, the mere involvement of government in healthcare matters, even in a fully privatized system, degrades value in the system. This is true in Finland’s, as well as America’s, system.

Blaming the public healthcare system for its current, run-down condition is like accusing the baker of being lazy and deserving of being fired while someone has stolen his flours and his rolling pin.

“People usually vote for candidates based on a wide variety of issues; health care is only one of those issues. Hence, with a politician you get a package deal.”

Yeah but why is it “only one” of the issues? Is it not a big concern?

“Of course if things get bad enough (i.e. enough people get sick, with a plethora of illnesses, and don’t get proper care), they’ll vote for change.”

Exactly.

“Whether or not his solution benefits you, the consumer, is questionable at best.”

People will not tolerate bad treatment for long. It’s always the next vote that counts. Even with your logic.

“That’s probably why governmental health care hasn’t acheived good results anywhere that it’s been tried.”

Bullshit. Statistics and surveys are available online.

“In fact, the mere involvement of government in healthcare matters, even in a fully privatized system, degrades value in the system”

Degrades the value for the businessmen yes, for the people no.

“This is true in Finland’s, as well as America’s, system.”

For some reason you can’t see this in the statistics, surveys or polls? Just out of curiosity, how do you plan to convince the majority of people (the voters) to agree with you? I smell failure.

History has shown us a few things.

- we need different states for different people
- we need democracy in those states
- we need those states to be free for socialist ideas
- we need those states to be free for capitalist ideas

We only have one question. Why are we arguing with history?

Oddly but I have had direct experience with both systems

My Grandma in the UK system needed a new knee. No way, you are over 80, they actually said they would rather spend that money on the kids. She was given a FREE wheelchair. The USA kids came in with $10K and we paid for her new knee, and she walked for the next 10 years until she died.

My case, I have Cancer. In the Canadian, UK or Finnish system I am offered one solution, the knife.

In the Free market system I went for the expensive ($100K) Proton Radiation solution vrs the Knife (1/4 that cost). The Nanny state of Finland will not even test for Men’s cancer (Cost saving?), but will test for women’s brest cancer.

Bottom line, both systems take very good care of the common cold, just do not get Cancer in the Nanny state.

Bonus points: I get to glow in the dark from all that radiation. (Not really)

Look, people, it’s rather simple..

Privatized, market driven healthcare:
- First priority: to make money (Well yea does Nokia make money?)
- Tries to avoid: curing people (reduces profits) (Well yea, if your contract does not cover free teeth filling you get to pay the bill, if it is covered, then they pay or you see them in cort)
- Answers to: stockholders (Yea, so does Nokia)
- Doesn’t cater to: people who can’t afford the prices (Yea, does Nokia give away to the poor?, thay why the government pays for the uninsured)

Public healthcare, maintained with tax money:
- First priority: to keep people healthy (Not really, it many divery money from the 80 year old to the 5 year old, but thats it)
- Tries to avoid: huge expences, inequality (True for huge expences, you had been not need some complex costly treatment)
- Answers to: the community / taxpayers (Please…. show me one case where this happens…. please)
- Doesn’t cater to: – - (well anyone, they put you all in one big long line, and say wait your turn, no matter how long thats is)

bottom line: If you are the bill payer, why would you ever want the Nanny State?

#67

“My Grandma in the UK system needed a new knee. No way, you are over 80, they actually said they would rather spend that money on the kids.”

Oh dear lord? They actually said they would favour kids over an 80-year-old granny? No shit?

“My case, I have Cancer. In the Canadian, UK or Finnish system I am offered one solution, the knife.”

You’re pretty much wrong.

“In the Free market system I went for the expensive ($100K) Proton Radiation solution vrs the Knife (1/4 that cost). The Nanny state of Finland will not even test for Men’s cancer (Cost saving?), but will test for women’s brest cancer.”

Please provide a link. There should be a few if this keeps happening all the time.

“Bottom line, both systems take very good care of the common cold, just do not get Cancer in the Nanny state.”

Please provide a link. There should be a few if this keeps happening all the time.

“Bonus points: I get to glow in the dark from all that radiation. (Not really)”

But you’re still alive.

“If you are the bill payer, why would you ever want the Nanny State?”

Because here in the Nanny States we are for equality, bill payers are not any better than the unemployed. It’s WE not ME.

#67

Just want to add, if you’re saying there is no chemotherapy in Finland, Sweden, UK, Canada, France, or in the rest of the “Nanny States” then PLEASE provide some kind of link just to prove you’re not completely insane.

In these Nanny States you’re given the treatment you NEED, not what you WANT. You’re not the paying customer, so the professionals actually have some power over the matter.

#68

It cannot be compared to Nokia. It’s public service, just like any other government work. Nanny States(tm?) have free dental/medical/mental care for everyone. These are not usually included with jobs here, because they are provided for free, for everyone.

By the way, Nokia FUCKIN SUCKS. It’s not half of the quality it used to be. Nokia is a brand that got a head start with their “innnovations” and other manufacturers had to follow in order to compete. Now the quality sucks in all brands, not just Nokia. Yay for the free market capitalism we don’t give a fuck about quality competition.

Thanks Phil, you basically made me a leftwinger out of a rightwinger in one single post! \o/ Hooray ^_^

The Nanny state of Finland will not even test for Men’s cancer (Cost saving?), but will test for women’s brest cancer.”

Please provide a link. There should be a few if this keeps happening all the time.

no link required, just ask your doctor sometime, I asked a Finnish Health official, and she comfirmed it, even said she was sure it was the money factor that keeps many good tests from even being performed.

Your system, any system, has to control costs, somehow, this is the path you have to take. I really don’t see why you even questioned it?

chemotherapy is for advanced Cancer, and I never said you do not get it. Please research before responding, your eyes will open wide to what your system does not offer you.

“Nanny States you’re given the treatment you NEED, not what you WANT. You’re not the paying customer”

wow, my point exactly. You pay your taxes, and yet its not your decision to make.

At least in a free market system, I was offered 3 different solutions all trying to sell me on thir path. You get one and only one solution. That solution is the most “Cost effective”, which means many many side effects you have to live with.

I hate to say this, but wearing a diaper for the next 30 years was not a solution I was willing to take a chance on.

I totally agree with Phil, the public health system is a jumble in here for years. Doctors are clean in this case. Every doctor loves the job, and as the fact of the huge effort provided and the humanitarian sense felt, doctors need a reward by the way (cash).
An undergraduate medical student, who keeps working ONLY the weekends at the emergency side, could gets approx 6 000 Euros a month, while a professor at the public sector runs between 4500 and 5000 at most, and THIS IS NOT FAIR, which means that more you study, less you earn, and that’s why many medical students prefer to not graduate YET, and still the license exam is a hard piece of the degree. And still some doctors are keeping their long sick-leave, while others chose to work abroad.
A while before, doctors have asked for rising their wages in the public sector, where the paymt was around 40 euros /hour, but the government declined this hope, so at that time, many doctors left the country for a better places and higher wages, even the best doctors have gone, and under this situation , the private sector started to show itself as an alternative solution to support the health care system,and since then, the things became quite different. The government offers a paymt of 80 Euros /hour per doctor to the private company , this company gives 60 Euro /hour to its doctor and keeps the 20 Euro for itself. After that ,a huge amount of doctors left the public sector to the private one, which makes the public area full of trainers and students, and these things push some people to lose the trust of the public service , thanks to the performance of those.
Now, still the government doesn’t want to recognize the mistake and give an offer to doctors to revive the public sector. Instead of this, the government prefers to put more money into the private companies pocket, and spend more and more for hiring the foreign doctors, who formed nowadays around 25% of the total amount of doctors in Finland.
So if the health care system is collapsing… It’s not a surprise.
During the last elections, most of the candidates were screaming about repairing the health care system, esp.those from SDP and perusS, but still i don’t see them. But here HS tries to make them remember the issues. Good luck.

I totally agree with Phil, the public health system is a jumble in here for years. Doctors are clean in this case. Every doctor loves the job, and as the fact of the huge effort provided and the humanitarian sense felt, doctors need a reward by the way (cash).
An undergraduate medical student, who keeps working ONLY the weekends at the emergency side, could gets approx 6 000 Euros a month, while a professor at the public sector runs between 4500 and 5000 at most, and THIS IS NOT FAIR, which means that more you study, less you earn, and that’s why many medical students prefer to not graduate YET, and still the license exam is a hard piece of the degree. And still some doctors are keeping their long sick-leave, while others chose to work abroad.
A while before, doctors have asked for rising their wages in the public sector, where the paymt was around 40 euros /hour, but the government declined this hope, so at that time, many doctors left the country for a better places and higher wages, even the best doctors have gone, and under this situation , the private sector started to show itself as an alternative solution to support the health care system,and since then, the things became quite different. The government offers a paymt of 80 Euros /hour per doctor to the private company , this company gives 60 Euro /hour to its doctor and keeps the 20 Euro for itself. After that ,a huge amount of doctors left the public sector to the private one, which makes the public area full of trainers and students, and these things push some people to lose the trust of the public service , thanks to the performance of those.
Now, still the government doesn’t want to recognize the mistake and give an offer to doctors to revive the public sector. Instead of this, the government prefers to put more money into the private companies pocket, and spend more and more for hiring the foreign doctors, who formed nowadays around 25% of the total amount of doctors in Finland.
So if the health care system is collapsing… It’s not a surprise.
During the last elections, most of the candidates were screaming about repairing the health care system, esp.those from SDP and perusS, but still i don’t see them. Here HS tries to make them remember the issues. Good luck.

I totally agree with Phil, the public health system is a jumble in here for years. Doctors are clean in this case. Every doctor loves the job, and as the fact of the huge effort provided and the humanitarian sense felt, doctors need a reward by the way (cash).
An undergraduate medical student, who keeps working ONLY the weekends at the emergency side, could gets approx 6 000 Euros a month, while a professor at the public sector runs between 4500 and 5000 at most, and THIS IS NOT FAIR, which means that more you study, less you earn, and that’s why many medical students prefer to not graduate YET, and still the license exam is a hard piece of the degree. And still some doctors are keeping their long sick-leave, while others chose to work abroad.
A while before, doctors have asked for rising their wages in the public sector, where the paymt was around 40 euros /hour, but the government declined this hope, so at that time, many doctors left the country for a better places and higher wages, even the best doctors have gone, and under this situation , the private sector started to show itself as an alternative solution to support the health care system,and since then, the things became quite different. The government offers a paymt of 80 Euros /hour per doctor to the private company , this company gives 60 Euro /hour to its doctor and keeps the 20 Euro for itself. After that ,a huge amount of doctors left the public sector to the private one, which makes the public area full of trainers and students, and these things push some people to lose the trust of the public service , thanks to the performance of those.
Now, still the government doesn’t want to recognize the mistake and give an offer to doctors to revive the public sector. Instead of this, the government prefers to put more money into the private companies pocket, and spend more and more for hiring the foreign doctors, who formed nowadays around 25% of the total amount of doctors in Finland.
So if the health care system is collapsing… It’s not a surprise.
During the last elections, most of the candidates were screaming about repairing the health care system, esp.those from perusS who the most because of this health issue, but still i don’t see them. Here HS tries to make them remember about this. Good luck.

(#70, second paragraph)

Not only that, you’re also not put through needless but costly procedures that are aimed only to fatten the bill. And you won’t be left without all the clinically necessary procedures just because you couldn’t afford them if you had to pay for them by yourself.

Maybe this is stupid comment but I wonder how it’s possible the same lazy git sitting in his public hospital cabinet during his public service hours and disrespecting the patients’ time, intelligence and health – suddenly turns into a smiling, caring, very punctual and helpfull Mr Doctor only half an hour later when his private shift starts. Even in the same gabinet. Dr Jeckyl and Mr Hyde.
Country of hypocrits as I wrote somewhere else.

Even public doctors in Finland make a comfortable living…to suggest it isn’t decent invalidates much of the debate…

“Because here in the Nanny States we are for equality, bill payers are not any better than the unemployed. It’s WE not ME.”

Well, I for one, do not feel responsibility towards the whole bloody nation. MY taxes are supposed to guarantee ME and my family the best possible treatment, not all the unemployed permanently addicts. I am not any Mother Theresa so when I loose a job, I bloody look for another one. Not suck the blood of the other taxpayers like some do on a permanent basis.

“Not suck the blood of the other taxpayers like some do on a permanent basis.”

wow, Nanny State in a nut shell

well done

thanks

The myth about hordes of lazy bastards abusing the welfare system is just that: a myth. The abusers are in a small minority. Most people have so much dignity and self respect that they try to avoid having to use social benefits to the very end. Most people think of them as they should be thought of: as a last resort when everything else has already failed.

As for what comes to tax funded schools and healthcare (etc.), well, I’ll gladly chip in and pay my share in order to help those unfortunate people who wouldn’t be able to afford the services without them being tax funded.

79. Don’t forget the foreigners. The unfortunate unemployed and whining foreigners. Thousands of us.
More idiocy I have never read.
Nothing in this world comes for free and if id does it’s rubbish!

Does anyone here know of any child custody case, where the child spends 2 days at the mother, and 2 days at the father alternately ; meaning that the child spends equal days at the mother and father?

Can this happen?

@103: My host parents in NY had an arrangement where the kid would spend one week with Mom, and then one week with Dad, but every Wednesday he’d go spend the night with the other parent. A bit confusing, but I’m sure that’s possible in Finland too… Just a matter of adults agreeing on things.

I would have all the doctors working for the state/municipalities/public sector. The first thing that those who opt to go sell out and go private should receive in their post box is a bill from the Ministry of Education for the cost, in full, of their medical education. That should soon bring them back into the fold.

#72
The point was that public sector organizations have built-in incentives to low efficiency (output/input -ratio) and lower effectiveness than market based organizations.
Because the wage is restricted, the incentive is to organize work in such a way that it minimizes effort, given the wage. The other incentive is to ensure the continuation of those operations. That is attained by inappropriately large sunk cost investments (=investments without resale markets).

So we have huge lines and a shortage of patient rooms at Maria hospital, while at the same time some departments of the same hospital are closed down because city claims that the care is at “normal level”. I.e. the organization at large has secured a lot of expensive walls and produces suboptimal level of service, given the total cost of inputs.

At the same time, the guys and gals at Maria hospital are probably doing the best job they can, under the circumstances. It’s just the circumstances that the public health care creates that suck. If it were a private operation, it would not make sense to hoard resources, because the owners would put pressure to the capital.

Let me now ask you, which politicians have you consulted lately about the cost structures of Maria hospital? Which politician should now fear the next elections due to the revolting taxpayers?

Phil:
“Drive from the short distance from ghetto East Helsinki to prosperous Espoo – ”

I drove from Jollas to marvel the gold-paved driveways of Matinkylä and saw what you mean.

Phil:
“Drive from the short distance from ghetto East Helsinki to prosperous Espoo – inequality is abundant in Finland. ”

I drove from Jollas to marvel at the gold-paved driveways of Matinkylä and saw what you mean.

Tussukka:
“The Finnish ones are so uneducated that it scares me everytime I have to ask their diagnosis.”

By the way, where did you get your medical degree from?

#91

“no link required, just ask your doctor sometime, I asked a Finnish Health official, and she comfirmed it”

So provide the name then. If you say something like that with nothing to prove it with, it’s just mumbling in the wind basically.

“wow, my point exactly. You pay your taxes, and yet its not your decision to make”

And it shouldn’t be. In our concept of “WE” there is little room for “ME” and that’s the way we like it. Solidarity above selfishness.

#97

Exactly. There’s something to think about. It’s basically the same guy running a private practice the only difference is that it would just cost more, as explained at #60

#99

Then you shouldn’t stay here. During wartime, everyone has to pull the same rope. That makes the nation stronger. How would this ideology be any different during peacetime? You’re just being selfish. Helping other people will eventually help you.

#102

This country is for Finns first, foreigners second. That being said, all foreigners I’ve met have enjoyed their stay here and we can even do better. We have American hockey players coming in just for the free university level of education. Get it? Americans want to live in Finland, because of our free education.

“Nothing in this world comes for free and if id does it’s rubbish!”

Yeah? How did people survive before money was invented? Sorry, I will top that myself, how did people survive before trading was invented? How do animals survive? Sounds like you’ve been having bad influences for too long. Together we are stronger. A tribe.

#106

“The point was that public sector organizations have built-in incentives to low efficiency (output/input -ratio) and lower effectiveness than market based organizations.”

Statistics disagree.

“Because the wage is restricted, the incentive is to organize work in such a way that it minimizes effort, given the wage.”

I’ve had different wages with different wages, I have never changed my effort. Nobody does, the effort comes from somewhere else, it’s not the money. I’ve done incredible stuff for free. I still do. I’m not the only one, statistics available to anyone can prove this.

“The other incentive is to ensure the continuation of those operations. That is attained by inappropriately large sunk cost investments (=investments without resale markets)”

You’re saying there is no resale in the public sector? You just shot yourself in the foot.

“So we have huge lines and a shortage of patient rooms at Maria hospital, while at the same time some departments of the same hospital are closed down because city claims that the care is at “normal level”. I.e. the organization at large has secured a lot of expensive walls and produces suboptimal level of service, given the total cost of inputs.”

So making everything private and huge lines just disappear? How, may I ask?

If we’re unsatisfied with our health care, we complain, when a lot of people complain together in this system, things will change. You dare to say this would also happen in the American system? The best what people can do there, is not to buy the product. Not to buy their care. Unfortunately, in that case they will probably die. So in America you buy or die.

Would someone still want to tell me that letting medical care be controlled by the market force is a good idea? They have the ultimate lever there. You HAVE to buy or you will die. You can’t choose, you just have to buy what’s available. Pretty much like food. I guess that’s the reason why food production is controlled by the government even in America.

“It’s just the circumstances that the public health care creates that suck. If it were a private operation, it would not make sense to hoard resources, because the owners would put pressure to the capital.”

The capital yes, people no. They would have to save money in worker’s wage, tool cost, material, lot’s of other stuff in order to compete with the public system. It’s simple mathematics.

“Let me now ask you, which politicians have you consulted lately about the cost structures of Maria hospital? Which politician should now fear the next elections due to the revolting taxpayers?”

We don’t care about the cost structures. We care about the treatment we get, and that my friend is excellent. There is no need to complain, if there was then we would do so, just like we do in any other area of politics.

Again its all about the line to get in.

The Nanny State has a Government Gate keeper who has to, for money reasons, turn down costly procedures.

The Private sector has the evil Medical Docs and more evil Insurance agency to battle the cost problem. But in the private sector I can go elsewhere with my money when service is poor.

There is a ballance, the private doctors fear loosing their income, public ones do not.

Can you fire your doctor? I did. My fist Cancer doctor wanted me to get cut. I said no, he got pissed, and so I saw a 2rd, a 3rd and then a 4th before taking treatment.

Can you see 4 Doctors? Like I did?

“Can you see 4 Doctors? Like I did?”

I’d like to quote mister Obama here: “Yes, we can”. Every person has the right to another opinion. Even in the public sector. That’s one of the basic rights, you know. Everyone is also entitled to choose between different applicable treatments. Doctors in the public sector are not immune. They make a mistake and they suffer the consequences.

Winter, just because you had (prostate?) cancer in the US does not make you an expert on the various forms of health care across the globe.

I am not totally defending public health care or totally admonishing it. Equally, the private sector has a lot to hate as well (read: “pre-existing condition,” “no insurance,” “research and development makes new drugs expensive in the US.”)

Dave the Revelator: “pre-existing condition,” “no insurance,” “research and development makes new drugs expensive in the US.”

Is this due to the “private sector,” or is it due to the laws which regulate how such matters are handled?

private sector.

“Is this due to the “private sector,” or is it due to the laws which regulate how such matters are handled?”

Don’t be silly. It’s most definitely due to the intrinsic nature of the private sector.

Even people with insurances and grounds for compensation are routinely denied treatment in the States because the insurance companies are there to make PROFIT and as a rule of thumb they try to weasel their way out of having to pay for anything. That’s something you can take for granted when the first priority is makin money and not actually keeping people healthy.

It’s funny how some people here defend the American system bay saying something like “oh but if you’re poor you’ll get your treatment without insurance anyway”. Well, no, you don’t. There’s been more than a few documentaries made about this subject where people have been stranded without life saving treatment because they couldn’t afford it and had no insurance. I’ll take the word of those documentaries over the social darwinists writing here any time.

I love how the author of the OP reaches the conclusion that socialist health care doesn’t work on the basis of a sensationalistic statement that the Finnish health care system is on the verge of collapse because doctor’s are trying to make more money by moving to private practice. Nevermind completely ignoring many other countries where universal health care is implemented. Nevermind health metrics which we can use to measure performance of health care in those countries and make relative comparisons between systems and make objective judgments over what works. Let’s just focus on how it might be logical to conclude that because doctor’s are moving to working in private practices that health care system doesn’t work.

I can understand how someone might be able to conclude that there is not enough relative incentive for a doctor to work for the public system over the private. But this is merely a question over correctly implementing incentives (which other countries have shown can be done), not that the entire system is fundamentally flawed. I’m honestly at a loss how someone could reach that conclusion logically without reverting to free market rhetoric.

[i]Yes. You just described a ’security guard’.[/i]

I don’t know whether to laugh or cry at this one. Phil, do you actually know what’s involved in police training and how police work differs from the work performed by a security guard? Do you honestly understand how the responsibilities of a security guard and a police officer differ? I can only assume that you have a donut-eating country cop stereotype running through your head when you wrote this because this is like saying Billy Bob and his shotgun could work as a soldier.

Once again guys are talking about what they don’t know jack shit. Few years ago the private health care sector decided to run down the public health care system. Why? Because without it, there would be no alternative. No alternative, more money for the privat health care business. Doctors are mostly all for it. Money talks and bullshit walks.
How do I know this? Friend of mine is a doctor in a private sector and is making cool million a year trough his businesses. He has been at present when the leaders and players of the private health care sector (yes, some of them are doctors) have been discussing how this can be done. Most important is that no new doctors go to work on the public sector. They actually have decided this policy, they recommend that to the new doctors!
But he is getting little antsy by all this greed. See, the private sector can not, as in the good ole US, take care of everybody. Actually, it is not even going to. It is going to make money on sick people who can pay.
That is the spirit of capitalism and it is ok. Just dont talk shit about effectiveness or other crap about socialist medicine when you have humanbeings dying on your fucking streets for diseases that could be easily taken care of. Just like it happens in places like India, Brazil, Zimbabwe and other great countries!
If the private health care system would be so fucking effective there would be no poor people dying on the streets of US. US has the best of the best doctors, equipment etc. So why the poor are dying? Because these best of the best don’t give a shit about them. They can not pay so they can all die. And Winter ofcourse don’t give a shit about those fucking poor leeches either.
So friend of mine, who has taken the Oath (Hippocrates oath that is) to heal people and preserve life, is having second thoughts about their master plan. He sees problems ahead and collapse of our national health. But hey, who gives a shit, as long as there are people who will pay more.
When talking about our system which we had back in 80′s and which was ruined during 90′s and early this century, you could choose. You could go to private sector and pay and get anything you wanted. If you did not have money, you could go to the public sector. You did what you thought was best.
Now, you have no choice. Even in the so called socialist sector, if you have money and pay, you get extra treatment. You pass those waiting lines and get your operation. If you do not have money, you wait for six months because the private patients go before you. But hey! No worries! That is the way this system works!
So stop bitching about it. You like the privatisation of the health care system. This is the finnish version of it. They try to make it american. Then only those with money will get any treatment. Those with insurance get maybe something. That is what you guys want, right?
Money talks!

I wouldn’t use America’s system as a model, since it obviously leaves a significant minority in dire straights, financially. However, there are European countries with privatized systems that provide high quality universal care, without leaving anyone out in the cold. I think that’s the direction health care will go in Finland. In my opinion, the change will be positive.

“However, there are European countries with privatized systems that provide high quality universal care, without leaving anyone out in the cold. I think that’s the direction health care will go in Finland. In my opinion, the change will be positive.”

In my opinion, we should look at the facts at this point:
en wikipedia org/wiki/Universal_health_care#Europe

“According to a survey published by the European Commission in 2000, Finland’s is in the top 4 of EU countries in terms of satisfaction with their hospital care system: 88% of Finnish respondents were satisfied compared with the EU average of 41.3%.[52] Finnish health care expenditures are below the European average. The private medical sector accounts for about 14 percent of total health care spending. Only 8% of doctors choose to work in private practice, and some of these also choose to do some work in the public sector.”

I have frequently said there are statistics and surveys available online, yet you refuse to spend a second of your time to look at them.

My question to you is:

Are you unwilling to accept the truth, or can you honestly say you have better info available, but you have just refused to share it with us?

I’ve seen this far,

1) arguments that won’t hold any water. No facts provided with the arguments whatsoever.
2) fat lies

People posting these mentioned 1 and 2, what is your goal? What are you trying to achieve?

Another referrence to a “happiness survey”. Oh those happy Finns LOL!

@117 – LOL

“1) arguments that won’t hold any water. No facts provided with the arguments whatsoever.
2) fat lies ”

Well shit, then, the fact that the Finnish system is on the verge of collapsing is a big fat lie…

Whew!… I was starting to worry for a minute

What exactly is LOL in this again? Are you suggesting that Finns in general are not happy, and this “fact” is once again based on some stupid stereotype? One of my friends is doing a dissertation about idiots, been searching for a place full of idiots but has had a hard time trying to find one. Will probably be happy now that I sent a link to this blog.

What’s next? Everyman’s rights teetering on edge of collapse. Berrypickers imported from Southeast Asia?

@120

Well you friend shouldn’t have to look too hard… he found YOU!!!

(yeah you are right, the Finns are all really cheerful and happy… everyone knows that)

“cancer in the US does not make you an expert on the various forms of health care across the globe.”

Correct

Thats why I asked the question, do you get tested for Prostate Cancer to a Finnish Professional, and the answer, was no. I was shocked at the answer.

So how if one system does not test for cancer can I compare it to mine that does?

Except to say, someone is saving on costs here.

How many of you here actually do use the public services? Including dental care!
I prefer private, but costs are absurd nowadays. Couple of years ago a root canal treatment at a private dentist for about 70 euro. Now 400 same thing. KELA bonus already off. Waiting list in public sector is half a year, where I live (in the sticks). That sucks!

Public sector health care experience has been OK. Only too much waiting for half urgent things. It’s best if you’re either dying, bleeding a lot, or making horrific noises, so you move up in the cue, or you have something that is not hurting, but only needs being looked at and you have all day. In between and you are so phucked! It’s also not free. Everywhere those small fees and there I feel sorry for people who are old or just those who are in regular need of medical attention. Every doctor’s visit is costing you. All your medicines you pay yourself.

It should not be so that you pay more, the more help you need. That’s what you pay all your taxes for. Also in the Finnish system there is a risk that people decide not to see a doctor, because it is getting too expensive. Ina way the public sector is already functioning on a half commercial basis.

Oh, one thing I can’t get used to; you can only seek treatment in your own municipality. Who came up with that idea? Oh and another thing, the doctor’s notes for sick leave form work. Move that to commercial sector, paid by employers! Simple idea, too hard to figure out for Keskusta dumbasses.

“making horrific noises, so you move up in the cue”

what is that? What is a cue? do you really go in and stand in some line?

If so, do you really think your system is better for the folks who pay the bills?

Say you feel sick. Quite sick and you know you need to go to hospital. Well, you can’t. First you visit the health care center and there you report to a desk and explain. To ask you to sit in a waiting room and that is what I meant with ‘cue’. It is a cue, because the health care workers decide how urgent your case is. If you’re unlucky and they believe everyone else, including those who came in later, are in more urgent need of care, you sit there for hours. It also depends a lot on how many treating doctors there are at the time you visit the health care center.

After you finally get to see the doctor, after some necessary treatment he/she can say to move your butt to the hospital. There it starts all over again. It could work much better/faster if there would be enough medical staff. Understaffed in FInland does not mean overworked, stressed, hasty personell and doctors, I found out. It’s all very relaxed, but you as a patient, are constantly told to wait for this and that. That’s the consequence.

I do not exactly know what you mean with your second question, but it’s no use to wave your wallet to speed up things in public health care.

Thanks

If I am sick, I call the Doc’s office and get a appt that day. He usually has open afternoon apps for the morning call in’s. If I call in the afternoon, then its a morning (Next day) appt.

You don’t get to do that? I am suprised.

Wait, I see, you don’t even have your own doctor? Whats this? How can they know you, your problems, if you don’t get the see the same Doc on each visit?

Strange… and you all put up with this?

The computer knows. And dentists don’t care what happened earlier, they make decisions based on what they see right there, right then.

Yes, strange but you get used to this. Like you get used to most things here and that’s for the best or otherwise you’d better move away again (Those are my words . I left my Dutch (got my own doctor) expectations where they belong; in Holland. It’s simply no use to compare health care systems. It is, however, good to keep reviewing your own system. The Finnish in this case. And there is room for improvement, as you could read.

“It’s simply no use to compare health care systems.”

actually I follow the feet. How many feet are knocking down the doors of state run medical care?

Just the ones who can’t go private I bet. But they all would want private over state run care I bet?

Any takers?

I know what you’re saying and also for me it is a question if I want to wait for treatment, or pay for treatment. Both things have nothing to do with good, accessible healthcare.

Private health care is i.m.o. quite happy with the situation. The longer the wait in public health care, the higher the fees they can charge. Or?

majava,

if you’re in urgent need of medical care you certainly don’t go to a health center (!). You go to the emergency room of a hospital, of course. There they’ll assess your situation and you get treatment accordingly.

Why is it that when I go to private healthcare, with the exception of one doctor with his own practice, and not part of one of those “Groups” – I get the base level of beyond crappy care? My symptoms are dismissed, and the diagnosis very wrong, in one case, dangerously wrong.

Then I go to my local public health station, in Helsinki of all places, and the doctors are nice, they run the lab tests, the nurses are saints, and my problems taken seriously?

It shouldn’t be true. The market forces should say my experience is the opposite. But it is not.

All the foreigners will shout at me how this cannot be. They want so much to cling to the Rethuglican belief system. I don’t know WHY it happens, but it does. The level of service I receive from public health care in Finland is light years ahead of the private health care, even if the private health care has online booking and fancier offices. The doctors, with the exception of one independent, have been beyond crap.

What does it all mean? I can’t tell you, only that it is what it is.

Winter – at my public health station, it’s two doctors I go between, and they both know me. I can go in on the same day.

“two doctors I go between, and they both know me.”

and thats the way it should be.

No excuses for any other system. Your Doctor should know you, not some computer he is friends with.

Anonymous #136. A kidney colic is very urgent! Yet, after calling to my local health care center -where they could not help me (!) they advised me to drive 22 km. to the nearest town, where I had to report to the health care center that is located next to the hospital. I got my badass painkiller about an hour from the time I first reported to the health care center’s desk. I don’t know why they do this in that way, because people are put in ambulances for less and go straight to that same hospital.

Cyberg00se, I can agree with what you say about the care that is given, once you are beyond the waiting. Also in my case I felt they did a proper job. My 400 euro private dentist bill went in part to the super fancy lcd screens, where I (still lying down in the seat) was showed how my x-ray looked. No assistants running back and forth with small x-ray pictures. All digital. The waiting rooms and corridors are full of flat screen tv’s. Interiors and equipment is modern. All of that does not make me feel more comfortable at the dentist. BTW why this: “All the foreigners will shout at me how this cannot be.” ?

“Yet, after calling to my local health care center -where they could not help me ”

so what are your options? If service sucks?

I can fire my provider, and I did on at least one occasion.

Thanks indeed for your response 104!! Very much appreciated!

Winter #141, Not much options. The 22 kms was still the only option and again public health care. Countryside towns do have some private dentists, but medical care is not to be found there. I am not sure what services they actually provide in my own village (about 1300 inhabitants) and I do not suffer frequent health problems. Actually, this was my first ever time I had to deal with the system in 7 years (in 2 weeks time I had to visit hospital several times). To sum it up for me; public health care is OK, if they would not let you wait for treatment. But the reason is understaffing and we know why that is so…

Why I always make the same typo… ‘hostipal’?!? And my name is not Baldrick!

“public health care is OK, if they would not let you wait for treatment.”

so why do you put up with this?

A simple call in reservation system, was like invented long ago?

Heck, when I call, it goes to India, and into the reservation system. Kinda funny, that we are dependent on technology here so much.

“so why do you put up with this?”

Large hospital facilities for every small town is a bit unreal don’t you think? As some of you seem to be a bit unaware of the rights and responsibilities of people involved in the health care system, here would be a good starting point:

http://www.stm.fi/Resource.phx/eng/subjt/healt/index.htx

I don’t mean to be rude, but 22km is no distance at all! Remember, Finland is relatively large with only 5,2 million people. If you live outside Uusimaa, Turku or Tampere, then the population (lack of) density means it will always likely to be a way to your nearest doctor/dentist/hospital/Alko/Kela office/etc! That’s life.

I am not complaining about the 22kk, but about the way pubic health care is set up. For me it meant I had to call one and visit another health care center before I was approved to go to hospital and finally got drugged. And what’s the use of having a health care center in your own small town, if they can’t even give you a one simple shot that gives you hours and hours of time to wait for a any doctor, or travel many more kms?

I have one friend whose father helped him with building his house. Dad fell from the top floor and landed on his back. He suffered a broken back, so things looked really critical. They would not take him in to hospital, because he was outside of his own area. Not a little bit, but 500 kms. I am not kidding you, but they put him in an ambulance to drive to fucking Oulu! Tell me, anonymus in #146, is 500 kms also no distance at all? Have you never read about the lack of maternity services in Lappi?

To tell you the truth, I would prefer to be cared for in a larger city hospital than in some health center in the sticks, if that was the case, majava… Wouldn’t you?

I’m sure he was given some good drugs for the 500km roadtrip, too, right?

Although a medi-heli sounds more appropriate for a broken back.

To shitthe fuck or the otherway:

“Then you shouldn’t stay here. During wartime, everyone has to pull the same rope. That makes the nation stronger. How would this ideology be any different during peacetime? You’re just being selfish. Helping other people will eventually help you.”

Well, I didn’t realize Finland was at war. Thanks for enlightening me. Surely it feels like that at times.
And you are a total naive not only shitthefuck beliving that anyone cares about you.
There is one good saying and memorize it: if you can count then count on yourself.

“Yeah? How did people survive before money was invented? Sorry, I will top that myself, how did people survive before trading was invented? How do animals survive? Sounds like you’ve been having bad influences for too long. Together we are stronger. A tribe.”

And another very truthfull observation: living in Finland is like living among animals.
Before the trade was invented sunshine fucktheshit, apes were taking things for free as long as there was enough for everyone. If not, they killed each other over that treasure.

Free for everyone in the tribe has been tried in many societies, USSR being one of them, China or Cuba another. Didn’t work the equal way for everyone though.

Get the free of charge medication because your nick is actualy becoming real you.

so what I get is

a reservation system to to much Money for the nanny state to implement?

Most new and innovative drugs come from the States-U.S. tax payers and those insured (both by government and privately) pay for the the research and development costs of these drugs (thru higher per pill costs) for the rest of the world. Countries such as Finland then, in order to provide even a basic level of care, force the drug companies to provide drugs at steep discounts, often below costs.

“And you are a total naive not only shitthefuck beliving that anyone cares about you”

Sorry you feel that way. I have to disagree. My education, health care and social security has always been provided to me by my fellow Finns who seem to care about me. Otherwise they wouldn’t do it right? Grateful as I am, I will surely do it for others, it’s the least I can do.

“Before the trade was invented sunshine fucktheshit, apes were taking things for free as long as there was enough for everyone. If not, they killed each other over that treasure.”

Yes? Wasn’t that my point exactly?

Oh wait, why does that sound familiar? Oh yes, the oil wars. (Gulf War, Afghanistan, Iraq)

About being naive, you really should take a look at this:
http://yle.fi/uutiset/news/2009/01/us_threatened_to_block_finnish_arms_deal_over_high-tech_exports_in_1980s__461542.html

Seems that either you do what America tells you to, or you’ll end up in a war with them. Seems things haven’t improved much since our monkey days.

“Free for everyone in the tribe has been tried in many societies, USSR being one of them, China or Cuba another. Didn’t work the equal way for everyone though.”

It has also been tried in EU and it has worked very well. EU is now a stronger economical power than America. It could be socialism with democracy what makes it work?

“Get the free of charge medication because your nick is actualy becoming real you.”

It’s just a nick you hypocrite moron. Open your eyes.

But I thought drug companies were…..evil?

Like Nokia is for making money? evil?

in the Nanny State no less

Apparently to some, companies who employ people are evil. My uncle, a long time Nokia employee, soon parked the Lada and moved to Kaunianen…

I got mine. I live in Finland. I am not corrupt. I am a believer in Karma. Capitalism has it’s place here, but it does not have the final say.

I’d say I believe in Karma as much as I believe in capitalism. That is, a LOT.

It just depends on how much Karma and how much capitalism.

I saw a dummy driving an H2 Hummer (was there ANY mistake in the naming of this vehicle after a slang word for getting a blow job? I think not.)

Now the driver of the Hummer has to learn Yoga AND Karma. Yoga, so he can learn to suck his own dick and Karma to be able to learn how to treat others.

Simple; a social democracy decree is born! Get to it, boys and girls!

Not to mention, the Hummer driver needs to sell his “vee-hick-ul” and FAST!

Yep its true. Make some money, get told you are evil.

Gee Nanny state at work.

Winnie:
“Like Nokia is for making money? evil?”

Oh well, for a longtime Nokia stockholder, the company is not that evil.

I hope Phil has registered with an unemployment fund.

Winter, you read things and come away with an entirely different interpretation of what is on the screen. Is this due to your superior US public education, or did you take a special course for that skill set?

And you Dave the Elevator better stick to your chicken korma or watever tandoori you eat for breakfast than try to impress us with this twisted (as in yoga) logic of your posts.

what the fuck are you talking about shit for brains?

Dave the Elevator… too funny man

Elevator: that must be your brains you just described in @ 162. Not to mention number 155, sooo full of that exactly crap. Karma and yoga. Yogi bear next.

What? Mussuka? What?

“entirely different interpretation of what is on the screen.”

so I guess I do not read the BBC? Must be the rum and party with sailors.

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Finnish goverment is full of shit! This post is ridiculous! ahHHHHHHHH! Fuck I have a headache…I need an aspirin. I have to visit a finnish doctor now. Ow-weee! Freaky – Finns…uh!
Baba booey! Howard Stern’s penis!

I am an ex British soldier, i served 10 yrs in three theatres of war. I suffered PTSD and had to leave. I ended up homeless and to my shame became a heroin addict.I came to Finland with my new wife with the goal of completing a de tox course, everyday i see clients turning up totally off their heads, i have tried so hard and im near the end but i am punished for being honest and trying my hardest under very hard conditions. It seems that if your a drunk or a lost cause you get everything,play by the rules and you are treated like shit, why is this so, i came here as i hold Finns in high regard, i suffer from serious psychiatric illness but i battle on as i want to be part of society again. My wife witnessed an attempted murder at the treatment clinic, the perpertrators got off with no change to their place at the clinic, i feel that the staff can only handle people off their heads and do not know how to help the transistion of a client from serious opiate abuse to becoming back in the fold,drug free.In ten years there has been just one success story, in three years on the program i relapsed once and had a small amount of cannabis and for this i lost all benefits while the clients who flout all the rules and continue to take drugs get everything, if i did not have my wife i would of succeded in blowing my brains out.

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