Did you go to the George Bush school of English? This is truly some of the most incoherent rambling I’ve read in quite a while. You might have a point in there (I gather you don’t like the greens or internet censorship), but the rest is lost. I hate to act like my old english teacher, but someone should. My god this is some shitty sentence structure.

As far as the rape comments of Dr Halla-Aho are concerned, someone should object to them. While the relationships between rape and immigration is a valid topic for discussion, hoping that someone gets raped (be it the greens or someone else) is simply vile.

HANK.. GET TO THE POINT.. IN A SHORT WAY

geeee…. you rant so long one could die before I got to the end…..

The guys thrown in the drunk cell were put there directly for speaking Swedish. One was from Åland and couldn’t speak Finnish at all. So, in solidarity with him, his friends began speaking Swedish too. Which, of course is their right regardless of whether they can speak Finnish or not (just as it’s a Finnish speaker’s right to use Finnish in e.g. Nykarleby regardless of the fact that he might be fluent in Swedish). The problem is, the police considered the actual speaking of the Swedish language to be a provocation! Even if they were actually drunk etc, they still have the right to be ‘told off’ in their mother tongue. What is more sad, is the way that some of the Finnish language rags have covered the story. Resulting to the most base of reporting standards.

This is not a one off case either. I personally have had a similar experience when I was stopped by the police for speeding (I was, so they were fully right to stop me). This was in a bilingual municipality. The police told me quite clearly if I would continue to speak Swedish, I would need to come to the police station and not just have it dealt with a fine on the spot. I am hardly unique. Just read Husis over the last couple of days.

It’s good the guys in Espoo have complained. Now the authorities will actually investigate it and perhaps the police in Espoo and elsewhere might begin to live up to their duties properly.

(And as for Björnberg-Enckell, well, she perhaps should learn when it’s a good time to stay silent. This would have been one of them. She has apologised now at least and the list of who’s who in the party (from Wideroos to Nylander) have come out critical of her. And some good comes out of this, Calle Haglund to the state secretary position is no bad thing at all. Very capable. )

Poor old Winter’s ADHD is flaring up again. Hank, you need to give him these things in small predigested bites. He has a very young head on those ancient shoulders, don’t forget. And there was no video with the text, either. Shocking. No wonder he came over all faint.

Yes, it was long, but the subject-matter is complicated and there are too many out there cutting corners already.

As a card-carrying Grammar-Nazi, I rather the doubt the “old English teacher” would have approved of the noun-verb relationship between “relationships” and “is”, or even the lower case for God, but that is mere quibbling, and hardly addresses the issues being raised.

Johanna Suurpää has come in for some pretty heavy shit lately. Had she been Susan Kuronen/Ruusunen, somebody might have found their ass dragged into court. They still might.

Ah the one liner….geee just say you all don’t support your police.

Come to the USA and buy a gun then. We take care of ourselves.

Not to say, Bambi, and Donald Duck.

Well, not so long ago in Åland you could not get a permanent residence permit if you did not speak swedish nor you did not get any service if you spoke finnish. But then again, not so long ago all you needed to become a cop was that you did not support any left wing parties and were a wrestler from Bothnia. In this sense we have come a long way even though there is still long way to go.

#5 Johanna Suurpää has come in for some pretty heavy shit lately.

For a good reason. Force-feeding her views on the Finns gets the bucket kicked over. Humanism is fine – if she wanted to help she could have joined Mother Theresa.

#5 Had she been Susan Kuronen/Ruusunen, somebody might have found their ass dragged into court.

She might be a harebrained idealist but she is not dumb, after all she is a lawyer.

A humanist could calculate how many polio vaccinations or how many wells could be dug for SPR with the money wasted here in such imbecile trials as the Vanhanen & Ruusunen ego-stroking matches were.

#7 I don’t think the language requirements and such have changed.

didn’t read it yet, maybe i won’t…too long.
that’s shorter:
http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Green+women%E2%80%99s+organisation+considers+filing+criminal+report+against+True+Finns+councillor+Jussi+Halla-aho/1135241093602

need to order Readers Digest

zzzzzzzzzz

#2 Definition of “vile”
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/023515.php

“Egyptian Lawyer Nagla Al-Imam Suggests Arab Men Should Sexually Harass Israeli Women and Declares: Leave the Land So We Won’t Rape You,”

And thats a woman lawyer.

Wallin didn’t grope anyone. It was his subordinate.

the aide groped, but I guess there was to many descriptors in between, now it should be a bit clearer.

Well, I think it is only politically correct that muslim woman lawyer can speak her mind in the face of the aggression of white european american 40something males against all other ethnics and specially women of the world.
Actually Halla-Aho is not a member of the PerSu and anyway I do not think too much of a guy who hasn’t even done his mandatory service in the Finnish Army.
The Greens are even bigger joke: the whole movement was founded to oppose nuclear power and now they are actually bringing more in. Shows you how steel willed woffels they are.

Sam, you’re absolutely right, Halla-aho is not a member of the party that he represents. I have seen countless comments about how he is a member of the party and as such either should influence or has influenced their party platform but all of those comments are inaccurate. Halla-aho is, of course, a member of Suomen Sisu, the organization that opposes the mixing of nationalities in an unnatural way if I correctly understand their platform that has been changed somewhat of late. Perhaps that was their official platform last year. Anyway, they have used slogans in the past that vaguely remind of certain politicians in 20th Century South Africa.

This shoot-your-own-leg contest has been so entertaining that everyone needs to pull out the refreshments. First we have Henrik Lax lecturing in his Kaleva column about how great it is to have the swedish minority as Finland’s window to Europe with their intrinsic finesse-from-the-mother’s milk. Add a couple of years and some Björnberg-Enckell has to downplay good old all-finnish örvellys at diplomatic party as an isolated act of one Hickström from the archipelago.

Then these green ladies leaving room for speculation about their reading comprehensions + tailored potty training for the new PerSu councillors. And Lenita as a cherry on the cake. I bet Tauno Matomäki in his famous tennis socks was a lot better choice to sell offshore rigs to Texas oil men than some slick euroweenie a la Lenita.

ai tount laik iliitist pulsit iitör.

It’s maybe reason to point out that the Björnberg-Enckell comment was about another Swedish speaking person. Of course some parts of the alemmuuskompleksit brigade immediately assumed she was deriding Finnish speaking Finns. But then they never miss a chance to scratch their itch.

Whoa, I need a few moments to digest all that.

Good writing Hank. That was entertaining.

19# N.Siinistö. So if the swedish speaking minority is jabbin each other then it is not allowed for the rest of us?? Or what was the point?
Besides they have made fun of finnish speaking majority for the last 500 yrs so I think it is okay to have fun with them. And it is funny when a rich “lady” from South Helsinki makes a claim that this guy was a jerk because he is from Korppoo, not because he happened to be a drunken jerk. Is that politically correct behavior from the rich bitch? No it is not. Now she is backtracking, I heard.
I never felt any kind of complexes not the least with swedish speaking finns or swedes that matter. They are funny people. Besides my grandmother was one of them, not the rich folk but the poor trash from the North side of the Long bridge.

#19 Of course some parts of the alemmuuskompleksit brigade immediately assumed she was deriding Finnish speaking Finns

No it was Lenita who derided all Englsih-speakers and Finnish men in general. B-E wrote in Huussis regarding “country rednecks not knowing how to behave”. Both voiced a “elite” message, but B-E was worse as the Finnish-Swedes have been jeered as “better people” (mainly due to contact with the likes of B-E) and as they’ve been vehemently denying it now one posting undermines all this “equality and no social classes” bullshit. Of course the alemmuuskompleksit brigade took upon themselves if Swedish-speaking rednecks are that bad then what are Finnish-speakers in her eyes.

So what do you think of Ala aho’s comment?

His essays are quite vitriolic.

So if the swedish speaking minority is jabbin each other then it is not allowed for the rest of us?? Or what was the point?

Sam – Of course it is allowed for the rest of us. That was not my point. My point was that Björnberg-Enckell’s comment had everything to do with the history of and internal power play in SFP, and nothing to do with the the Finnish language. I was referring to comments like #22. Hank W. is now an official member of the alemmuuskompleksit brigade. The reason they “take upon themselves” is because it’s such a fundamental part of their identity. They really need (their fantasies of) some upperclass Swedish lady trampling the poor Finns with her spiked heels. In that sense Ms. Björnberg-Enckell should be declared a honorary guardian of the Finnish national identity, or something.

#25 fantasies of some upperclass Swedish lady trampling the poor Finns with her spiked heels.

I am not fantasizing of going to Stocka during Galna Dagar…

Hey,have you seen the 10 top ugly buildings and monuments, eeerrr, Tuuri is there with the LuckyShoe Monument.

http://www.reuters.com/article/lifestyleMolt/idUSTRE4AF1IN20081116

1. Boston City Hall; Boston, Massachusetts
2. Montparnasse Tower; Paris, France
3. LuckyShoe Monument; Tuuri, Finland
4. Metropolitan Cathedral; Liverpool, England
5. Port Authority Bus Terminal; New York City, New York
6. Torres de Colon; Madrid, Spain
7. Liechtenstein Museum of Fine Arts; Vaduz, Liechtenstein
8. Scottish Parliament Building; Edinburgh, Scotland
9. Birmingham Central Library; Birmingham, England
10. Peter the Great Statue; Moscow, Russia

Hank, have you been taking English lessons from Sarah Palin?

“Hej, jag är från Korpo. Jag tycker om att tafsa”

Finland isn’t such a good place for immigrants. Perhaps this reality does need to be understood.
Dr. Halla-aho might be doing future immigrants a favour by being openly hostile and trying to garner support for his views. After all why should immigrants come to a place where they are not made welcome and where no one is really interested in them?
The harsh reality for immigrants in Finland is that ….well…life is harsh here. I really don’t think that I would recommend to anyone that they should come and settle here.
I would imagine that in future there will be less immigrants and not more. Even now there are very few immigrants compared to other countries in Europe.

Problem is the immigrants he doesn’t want can’t read Finnish.

Well I’m sure you can make his views known- albeit in a slightly less vitriolic manner.

Well, Andy, Finland is harsh place for all of us. Finnish people do not get assistance when going to Kela or Työkkäri or Sossu like some foreigners do, and neither we get every social benefit that the law says we should have, but some foreigners do get them all without any difficulty beacuse they have official assitance person to guide them throught the byrocratic maze. I think this is one reason why some finns do not like foreigners.
One thing I just wonder: why todays foreigners are whining so much? Are they same kind of sissies as the young finns? Think about those who came here hundred years ago, or thirty years ago and stayed. How the fuck they survived at all when this is so terrible place Andy?? Or maybe they were little bit tuffer than you guys now?
Think about those russiansa who lived here during the war years! They may say that it has not been easy but they are still here. So what the fuck is so difficult now again?? Halla-aho??? Give me a break, man!! I can’t stop laughing at him!

The Greens Womens Movement has reported Aho’s blog to the police. And good for them to. Incitement to racial hatred is a serious matter. Immigration needs to be and should be discussed, but like anything else, without resorting to hatred.

@34 Yes agreed. Also there needs to be distinctions made between asylum seekers, refugees, illegal immigrants and immigrants.
It’s clear to me, in the discussions about immigration online, that there are often very pejorative views put forward about the ‘immigrant’. The truth is that of the 130.000 immigrants living in Finland there are tremendous differences in ethnic and cultural backgrounds.
One point that should be made about immigration is that for an immigrant to settle they must feel some emotional attachment to the country where they are residing – if they feel isolated, marginalized, excluded then they will either move on to other countries or they’ll move back to their own country.
Historically immigration tends to benefit the host country more than act as a detriment. If immigrants don’t want to come to Finland then actually it’s more likely to be Finland’s loss.

Jonas: you are right about Swedish speakers encountering an increasingly harsh treatment, but let’s just say that the problem is further exacerbated in Espoo, which went from being a Swedish stronghold to a place where Finnish rednecks in blue suits try to forcefully eject Swedes and foreigners alike.

sam: what are you smoking? Immigrants don’t get any help with the bureaucracy – quite the contrary – nor do they get a free lunch there either.

#33 I really wonder how foreigners get more assistance from kela than the same Finns. Give us a break.

And if the finns are xenophobe, it won’t be good for them either.
It’s invain, except funny sometime, to propose them some behaviour.
What goes around comes around. See ya abroad.

Most Finns aren’t xenophobes. But we do seem to be disproportionately too many amongst us who are.

I find it funny when people complain of immigrants wanting to maintain their own traditions in Finland. Surely, that’s natural. Go to any major grouping of Finnish people out in the world living abroad – do they celebrate independence day on 6.12., do they want to sit around drinking coffee and eating pulla with each other? Yes, of course. Look at emigration to USA and Canada in the late 1800s and early 1900s. Finns set up their own Lutheran religion churches on Americas soil, their own newspapers in Finnish, their own schools etc etc. In other words, when we are immigrants ourselves, we act in exactly the same way – which is entirely natural.

Will Finland or Finns become somehow less Finnish because someone speaks also Somali and goes to a mosque now and again? No. Have some belief in our country, we’re not that weak. Finnish culture is strong enough to be able to survive quite ok, it’s not going to suddenly disappear.

One thing I just wonder: why todays foreigners are whining so much?

Bad foreigners. Finns would never whine, bitch nor complain about anything. It’s such a happy and sunny people.

Someone went and translated the original text into English.
So, go figure out yourself whats there offensive and to whom:

http://vasarahammer.blogspot.com/2008/11/multiculturalism-and-woman-translation.html

The Green Women got upset over the last paragraph.

#27 5. Port Authority Bus Terminal; New York City, New York

Don’t know about its uglyness really, I could name a few other buildings in NYC that are IMNSHO worse… then again Helsinki has its share… though some buildings aren’t that ugly but in the wrong place.

#36,37. Well, those were the experiences that my ex and myself had with Kela etc. When we were constantly asked to bring new papers and certificates of what ever, in the booth next to us were recent asulym seekers who had a finnish person ecorting them and they had assistance of the lady behind the counter.
We did not get any assistance at any time and had to come back with new papers, and then were told that we have to produce this and that paper and come back again tomorrow. This happened not once or twice but everytime we where there but maybe that was just a once only thing.
Sometime after our divorce my ex was once 8 weeks without ANY money from ANY social services because one lady at one counter did not sign the papers, even though my ex had two small babies at that time. She finally signed the papers when a journalist called her and my ex got the money next day.
When was the last time that any refugee family in this country was denied any money from those services for two months? They may get a small sum but they get it where as the natives sometimes do not get any money for months. Go figure.
Same goes with the apartments. Asulym seekers will be given a place to live, which is fine, but at the same time there are thousands of finns in the lines waiting if they are suitable for a flat. Thousands of finns do not get a communal flats for what ever reason but asulym seekers do, if they are granted the refugee status. Not their fault again, but I can understand why someone who has been waiting his/hers turn for years might be little bit apprehensive against foreigners in general.
Needles to say, I’m not blaming the immigrants. I blame the policies which pinn poor finns against the foreigners and set the problems. I know that foreigners who come here to live and work face the same hurdles as we do, but these kind of experiences influence people, like it or not.
And then to say that finns are racist or otherwise xenophobic nation or what ever is not making finns more loving towards the foreigners. If I would go to USA and start to bitch about their country to americans, they would not like it.
If I would go to Mecca and demand that I have the right to drink a bottle of Kossu in where ever I like and when ever I like because it is my cultural heritage, they would not like it. If I would go to Vatican and demand right to go sauna butt naked every saturday and then swim naked in the nearest pond because it is my cultural heritage, they would not be thrilled. You get my point?
When you move to a foreign country you have to adapt. Otherwise there will be conflicts. No doubt. There will be difficulties and suspicion anyway, natives will look at you carefully. This happens all around the globe. Believe me. I have lived in Europe, Africa, USA, and visited all the continents. It is the same everywhere, in all countries.
I do not know where you come from Eric Martin, but you chose to come here. I understand you have frustrations, difficulties and such, but calling us racists and rednecks etc is not going to work for you. It does not make you feel any better and it certainly does not get you any new friends, sorry to say. Not that you should not speak out. That is your right according the finnish laws. There are some countries right next to ours where that would be impossible.

It’s not exactly the same everywhere.
Somewhere speaking is forbidden, somewhere else it’s considered whining and somewhere else it can make a difference.

Ps: don’t censor me too often; Tx.

Well, well, who would have believed it? Well, me actually! Andy Campbell finally sussed out Finland. I remember when Andy thought that racism wasn’t a particularly significant issue in Finland; no more of a problem in Finland than elsewhere. Well, he’s obviously been in Finland a little longer and all has been revealled.

I like Andy. He writes well, unlike Hank. Andy, in all probability, is intelligent, unlike Hank who is not (we can see that from what he writes)

Andy, try to leave Finland. I hope that you can get your Finnish wife to move with you. If you’ve not got kids consider going back alone. One thing’s for sure: it won’t get any better anytime soon. Racism is ingrained in Finnish society. It’s accepted. It’s impossible to live happily within a society where you’re seen, by most, to be, at best, an unwanted guest. When you get back home tell others about racism in Finland. That’s what I’ve done when anybody has asked me what I thought of Finland. The Finnish bullshit PR industry need to be countered by the truth. Andy’s also right about immigration. The Finns will receive fewer European migrants in years to come – words and reputations do travel. However, Finland will probably still receive less skilled migrants from poorer parts of the world. Unfortunately, these migrants will find it even harder to break into the Finnish labour market.

One last thing. There are some foreigners living in Finland that admire Finnish racism – The ‘white flight’ posse. They’ll stay in Finland because they don’t like a multicultural society. They’re scared of non-whites. Andy, before you leave Finland try to be brave enough to confront these racists and engage them in debate.

Good luck.

Such optimism.

#41, that guy is against anti-racism. He’s a racist. Is he a chosen one? llooll

#45. Way to Go! If you encounter difficulties, run! Finland is such a terrible place to live! Run for your lives! No person who looks different can not survive here! Ruuuunn!
Like I said before, how the hell those guys survived who came here in the 60′s and 70′s? How the hell Idols competitor Pete Parkkonens dad survived even though he was black dude who was born in 1950′s here in racist Finland?
How anybody can survive in Finland where “racism is ingrained in society”? I think Larry “Lauri” Pounds might have something to say about that. I wonder, I just wonder, is this not one shining example of the Gian Baby Syndrome?
Those GBs complain all the time and accuse everything and everybody else for anything. This guy seems to be one of those Giant Babies who just wont grow up and do nothing unless he/she gets some titty milk.
It is so old, my friend. Get on with your life. Are you not tired repeating this “Finland is Racist” mantra? Try to find some new angle on it. Or new tune. Or something. It is so lame!

Sam, celebrate! Another dirty ulko will be leaving Finland soon.

Sam, celebrate! Another dirty ulko will be leaving Finland soon.

@ 45 Thanks for your kind comments. I tend to agree with what ‘A Finn’ says in their posts. It’s right to talk about immigration and debate what it means and how it changes things but one must not debate such topics within a xenophobic or racist context.
Two things that most analysts on immigration agree with is that further immigration into Finland is both necessary and important. However as Martin-Erics experiences show us, it’s very difficult as an immigrant to find an equal position with the work-place that is in accord with ones abilities. I would go as far to say that 99% of immigrants in Finland are working in jobs that they are over-qualified for and lets not forget that unemployment amongst this group is 25%.
So to say that immigrants are complaining too much or overreacting is to ignore the fundamental truth that essentially they are wanted but not desired. They are wanted for cleaning jobs and so on but they are not really desired in the sense that no one really takes an interest in them and they are excluded.
I’m not sure why this is. Is it the famed ‘Nordic Superiority Complex’? Is it that whilst Finn’s must submit to authority and have been through military service us foreigners have not? In this sense not being A luokka.
I really don’t know. My reasons for staying here are because I have very strong commitments – let’s say loving commitments – and I ‘ll stay as long as I have those responsibilities.
It’s for Finn’s to decide whether or not they want further immigration or not and how they deal with educated and Finn speaking immigrants. From my side I feel the difficulties that some immigrants face are quite large – they are not always obvious structural difficulties – but they are serious difficulties nonetheless.
Sometimes we have to look at the tree and not see it as a Finnish tree but just a tree – sometimes we have to look at the person and not see them as just a Finnish person or immigrant person – I would appreciate a finer look at people and their situations. The internet is full of bluster and bravado but our complex everyday live are quite different.
One thing about Hank is that his English is very good. He should at least be praised for that. Although as I’ve said before I wouldn’t want to live in the Finland that he carries around in his head.

Some very interesting comments Andy. I think that Finland is collectively confused. At times Finns in high places state that they want to encourage immigration. However, even at an official level policy doesn’t reflect these stated aspirations. On a microlevel Finns definitely don’t want foreigners living in their country. Many of these micro decisions leave Finland worse off e.g. how can it make sense to waste an immigrants talent; rather than being in-work many talented individuals in Finland become a net drain on the Finnish treasury.

The bottom line is that racism and prejudice are irrational. You can’t have a reasoned argument with a racist. For those that don’t have emotional ties it’s probably best to leave Finland. Ironically, there is a third group of foreigners living in Finland; wasters, people who are quite happy to sit at home and live off KELA handou

Folks, where do you get off making these sweeping statements about every Tom, Dick and Harry here being dead set against all immigration? I’ve yet to meet a fellow Finn who’d complain about foreign born folks who come here, contribute, integrate and don’t go complaining about everything that’s done differently here than back home.

Not to put too fine a point on it, the sort of immigration most Finns aren’t too enthused about is that from majority moslem countries, the sort of immigration that seems to always form a permanent underachieving underclass in every single European country. Yes, there are exceptions. They’re just that, exceptions.

Pre-emptively to anyone wanting to scream racism: fuck off.

@ 53 Quick question: Are you an immigrant?

Andy: No, see the line about “fellow Finns”. I of course realise the people I know don’t represent everyone. The point that I was making was the same you made in 35: there’s immigration, and then there’s immigration. Not all people who criticize immigration criticize all immigration.

Anyway, why?

Andy: No, see the line about “fellow Finns”. I of course realise the people I know don’t represent everyone. The point that I was making was the same you made in 35: there’s immigration, and then there’s immigration. Not all people who criticize immigration, criticize all immigration.

Anyway, why?

O.k so I’d like to know your ideas on the following:
1. What constitutes the ‘integration’ of an immigrant, to a Finnish person. In what ways are immigrants to be integrated and what counts as ‘successful integration’?
2. How can immigrants make a contribution other than through taxation? For example are you saying that an unemployed immigrant is not making a contribution?
3. How can an immigrant talk about his or her situation in a way that doesn’t sound like complaining? what neutral language can they use? Or should they stay silent if they have problems?

Selective immigration policies have been used in the past by countries such as Canada and Australia. It would be interesting to see what kind of debate would arise if Finland decided to be selective. And is it already being selective?

I asked if you were an immigrant and you replied – ”Andy: No, see the line about “fellow Finns”. I wonder if it’s possible to be an immigrant and a Finn?

I asked if you were an immigrant and you replied – ”Andy: No, see the line about “fellow Finns”.
I wonder if it’s possible to be an immigrant and a Finn?

Can’t speak for everybody, so I’ll speak for myself, and even then, I don’t think there are hard and fast rules.

1. I guess I could give the standard fare here: job, compliance to local laws and customs, and so forth. It can be of course pointed out that there are many Finnish people of Finnish ancestry who’ll never achieve these.

2. Money’s not everything, but it’s needful. It would be good if those that come here would not be a burden to sociefy, don’t you think? That being said, I guess if someone were to come here and for example raise kids that are just plain good people, he or she would definitely have made a contribution.

3. What situation would that be? It’s a human tendency to assume that the way things are done around you when you grow up are the way things are always done. Then you move to a different country and are suprised that it’s different. Some people seem to feel that because we’re a small European backwater that their customs are superior. To an extent this might be true. But when someone complains about the way Finns do things, it would be nice if it at least _seemed_ that they have carefully reflected that there might be a reason for us doing it our way.

When I gave off the list which you asked me to clarify, I did in no way mean to imply that most or even a sizeable part of immigrants acted in this way.

May I ask what was the purpose of your query, and did it get fulfilled?

59: Ah, I thought you might reply that way. I thought it would be clear from the context.

I think it’s interesting to hear your point of view. The idea about immigrants needing to ‘integrate’ is common and often talked about. However the notion of what constitutes ‘integration’ is never specifically mentioned. It remains a somewhat abstract term. It may mean following rules and laws and if so then it is pretty straightforward. If it’s about following local customs then this is more vague and one would need to clarify just what is a local custom and how closely should one follow it.
From my own side I think ‘integration’ here refers to a kind of submission where one might leave ones previous way of doing things and submit to a new kind of authority – which would obviously be the Finnish authority and which would include both following laws and ways of life in that you don’t stand out.
Unemployment amongst immigrants stands at 25%. Contributions immigrants can make can obviously be financial and that is expected and good as everyone should contribute through paying tax. Businesses owned by immigrants or employing immigrants also make further contributions to the social security funds and the pension funds.
There are though other contributions that can be made and that are less tangible and come from a curiosity about other peoples culture and histories. In England for example there are lots of areas that are dominated by a particular immigrant community and these areas are fascinating to visit and to explore. This is another kind of contribution.
On the last point – the general tendency, when Finland is discussed by foreigners, is for Finns to become very defensive and almost freeze-up in denial. I’ve noticed that Finns are very very sensitive at even the slightest criticism of Finland – even if that criticism might be well meant or constructive. There is this idea that Finland is a young and small country who wants to be loved and appreciated and who follows the rules and so on and yes actually there is a lot of reason to love and appreciate Finland – it’s just that why not debate and be open to other view points? If you take part in debates and no longer deny and justify and so on then it’s the same as no longer living in a ‘backwater’ as you put it.
Sometimes I think the immigrant is expected to 1. Pay taxes. 2. Submit. 3. Stay silent.
I wonder what happened to these three: 1. Pay taxes but contribute culturally too. 2 Celebrate diversity. 3. Welcome debate.
I am against the current policy of the careful placing of immigrants so that that one immigrant group is not dominant in a particular area. I think the current system weakens the immigrant and further isolates them. They are harder to reach and just become marginalized. It would be better to have areas where immigrants from certain cultures can integrate together on their own terms whilst receiving support from their own.

I was going to respond, but it took me too long formulating my response. Perhaps we’ll continue this later.

Dear Andy and others, think about this: the gypsies came here few hundred years ago and decided to keep their culuture and identity separate from the rest of the society. the results???
the tatars came here about a hundred years ago. they were foreigners and muslims. they founded the first mosque in finland. they went to work. founded thriving fur and carpet business etcetc. they kept their culture, language and religion. they did not act like Giant Babies demanding a tit for sucking. the results?
they became wealthy and prosperous, and the gypsies are generally still outsiders on their own desicions (kids do not edjucate themselves etc). you see my point?
vietnamese refugees, the boat people, came here and went to work. they retained their language and religion, culture etc. they are doing fine for the most part, their kids are edjucated and doing fine.
the somalis came here and they kept their customs and culture and the results?
what i am saying is this: it is not easy to immigrate, never, anywhere. but you can do something. if you just sit on your ass with your thumb in it, things won’t change. not for you anyhow.

“I wonder if it’s possible to be an immigrant and a Finn?”

Why yes, theres people moving in with Finnish passports who don’t speak the language and been brought up and lived in a totally different culture. They face similar probelms with certificates, finding a job etc.

While Andy believes ghettoes contribute to the society, I’m afraid ghettoes only cause further alienation. If I want to visit an exotic place I rather visit a foreign country than Vuosaari.

“Whose idea was it to accommodate the aspects of immigrant cultures that go against our own, and who taught them to demand such accommodations?” http://izrailit.blogspot.com/2008/11/eek-evil-doers-are-taking-our-voters.html

Foreigners, leave Finland. The writing is on the wall.

“If it’s about following local customs then this is more vague and one would need to clarify just what is a local custom and how closely should one follow it.”

I think that maybe the definition of having become “a Finn” is when one doesn’t need to be told these things.

I get the feeling that some folks somehow got the idea that Finns, as individuals, want immigrants here. Probably they don’t care either way, as long as they aren’t inconvenienced too much by it. I don’t think it’s very wise to expect general attitudes to reflect a current goverment policy.

“Unemployment amongst immigrants stands at 25%.”

This is one of those things where immigrants and refugees should be separated for a more accurate assessment. See this:
http://www.mol.fi/mol/fi/99_pdf/fi/04_maahanmuutto/08_maahanmuuttotilastot/wulktyoll.pdf
Unemployment numbers seem to be stratified by reason of entering the country, judging by the nationalities.

“There are though other contributions that can be made and that are less tangible and come from a curiosity about other peoples culture and histories. In England for example there are lots of areas that are dominated by a particular immigrant community and these areas are fascinating to visit and to explore. This is another kind of contribution.”

Well, first thing I’d like to know, can these people support themselves, or preferably, succeed in this society. Otherwise and going by that description, it’s more like a government funded cultural theme park

“On the last point – the general tendency, when Finland is discussed by foreigners, is for Finns to become very defensive and almost freeze-up in denial.”

Well people tend to have a hard time challenging their life-long conceptions of how things really are. Not everyone wants to do that, at least very often, and for an uncertain gain. People in general don’t like questioning things, and sometimes too much introspection can get in the way of actually getting things done. I don’t know how you communicate these things, but maybe try to employ a more persuasive and less confrontational tactic when giving your two cents?

Or it could be just misplaced national pride or oversensitivity to criticism. I wasn’t there.

“I am against the current policy of the careful placing of immigrants so that that one immigrant group is not dominant in a particular area.”

Are we talking refugees here, because I don’t see how this applies to all immigrants?

Well those immigrant ghettoes which Andy finds so fascinating to visit are often the result of poor or non excisting policies. Only few years ago those in Birmingham were up in flames.
Immigrants gather together because they a) do not speak the local language b) are ushered to the poor neighbourhoods c) are affraid of the general population d) can find nowhere else to go e) can be contained in those ghettoes by the politicians and police much more easily.
Yes, I have been in Little Itlay, Chinatown etcetc. so I know what we are talking about. But I have also been in neighborhoods which are racially separated, like Harlem etc. That is not too good idea for anyone, is it?
I mean they did it in South Africa, remember? Soweto etc? Is that something worth of go for? Put different immigrants in to different ghettoes which turn in to Fascinating turist sites?
I don’t think so. Bet way to deal immigration is to let foreigners to join in. They can keep their language but must speak the local too (this is a fact of life in all countries, as in USA and England and Germany and France and so on), they can keep their religion and practice it as much as they please unless it is against the local laws, they can keep their culture if they can but must be tolerant for local culture too.
Simple things to do. It should work too. If you are going to have a samba carneval at your home, nobody is stoping you. Just tell your neighbours and invite them in too. If you have to pray at five o’clock in the morning, do not blast the call for praying from your stereos at full force. Use low voices or head phones. That is called courtesy and it works wonders.
If you are planning to slaughter a lamb in according your tradition, do not use the bathroom or the laundry room in your block of flats. Ask how it could be done legally or is there a legalized butcher who could do it for you (there are many of them).
If you have festivities which include open fire, do not build a fire in your kitchen floor and most of all, do not light it up (famous incident in East Helsinki where an immigrant had an open fire in her kitchen and was angry when officials put it out about ten, fifteen years ago).
How hard it can be? Is this too much? Is this racism? Xenophobia? What the fk??

Its really like football (soccer to the merkins). A successful team must a) listen to the coach, b) play together and c) play by the rules so they don”t get yellow cards. Really it doesn’t matter where one is from as long as they want to be a part of the team and play football. If they instead want to hold the ball all to themselves, don’t listen to the coach or start playing some other game or do not follow the rules of football – the team is in trouble. Of course the team then doesn’t want those players to stick around.

Multiculturalism for me doesn’t mean theres a load of foreigners living in the same house. Finland has always been diverse, some times more than others. Say we live in the house and share the same laundry room. There is a list, you reserve your turn, and everything goes smoothly as long as everyone respects the rules made for common good.

Multiculturalism for me means theres someone washing his laundry on my turn, and when I point it out he starts screaming “racism”. So maybe their culture doesn’t know the concept of time. Fine. Maybe I’ll be a multiculturalist too and take a shit on his bedsheets as thats my cultures response for washing on my turn.

Besides which currently everyones screaming “racism” its just pathetic. Todays HS was the best. Two drunken guys 2am in a kebab shop beat up the kebab guy. The comment section flared up with “Finnish drunks” racism xenophobia blaa blaa blaa… only later the day the HS amended it off another newspaper that both the kebab guy and the two perpetrators had been “of immigrant origin”. Maybe it *was* racism, russians for example don’t love caucasians. But I think the racism was already in assuming the kebab guy was an immigrant as theres Finns working those shops too.

I don’t really think anyone takes multiculturalism seriously in Finland. it’s a dead debate – there is only one direction Finland will go in and that is to continue following a monocultural path.
I mean to say that multiculturalism gives equal weight and value to those other cultures within that society. So theoretically in the U.S people with an Hispanic background and culture are equally American alongside other cultural and ethnic groups like W.A.S.P groups.
In Finland multiculturalism would mean that one can be Somalian and also Finnish and obviously different but equal to an ethnic Finn. Somalian cultural traditions would be seen as being of equal value as Finnish cultural traditions. In the U.K for example many kids celebrate the Diwali festival what ever cultural background they are from.
So multiculturalism means that ethnic groups within society are not necessarily ‘integrated’ but are allowed their own place and voice. It’s in this way that Finnish immigrants were treated when they first settled in the U.S. They were allowed to settle together and worship together and became a part of multicultural America.
In Finland this will never happen. There is the idea across all political spectra that the immigrant should be integrated. And this idea is an expression of a monocultural policy/hegemony.
So in truth there is no real meaningful ‘debate’ going on about multiculturalism in Finland because it is not happening now and will unlikely happen in the future. There is nothing to debate because 1. The amounts of immigrants to Finland are low. 2. Immigrants in Finland are silent on the matter – more or less. 3. No one in Finland believes that the ‘other culture’ of the immigrant should be preserved, practiced and respected. Everyone believes in integration.
So anyway Finland is more likely to send a rocket the moon than to become a multicultural society. And that’s really Finland’s business and so be it. But can I say that the indifference and sometimes hostility that many people here seem to show to those of other cultures is not something I admire at all. Apart from the overwhelming consensus on monocultralism being the unquestioned policy, there is also a distrust of the foreigner who is able to break through into the culture and who has learnt the language and customs and so on. Again i suspect that that is just how it is up here in the north of Europe. Finland’s overwhelming support for it’s own monoculture and the superiority of that provides a harsh backdrop against which the immigrant works. The immigrant is always an outsider, and never even a curiosity. The are left by themselves and either sink to the bottom or float off elsewhere. Ignored for the most part they just get by.
So yes Finland is a wonderful country to visit and Finns have a right to be proud of their country but opposite to this is the experience of the immigrant in Finland which is absolutely different and less comfortable as the experience of a native Finn. Yet the harsh practicality of the Finnish nature says ‘ so what’. And the immigrant in turn agrees yes ‘so what’ and leaves or just stays silent.

Listen Hank. I am seriously worried about you. You’re approaching 40 and by your own admission not getting a lot of action. This True Finns sympathising seems like the last nail on the coffin. You must break the vicious cycle of displacement immediately!

Oh, I support anything that gets on the green womens’ tits. Like to see hard ecohippie nipples.

#71 “Somalian cultural traditions would be seen as being of equal value as Finnish cultural traditions.”

What is wrong with equality, religious freedom, universal suffrage and a democratic welfare society? I don’t really care for civil war and anarchy even piracy has its romantic flair.

Hank, I suppose that you are familiar with this, then.

(Quite unsafe for work)