Tuovinen has not been punished yet, only two complaints have been filed against her. There was a similar case last year, where the complaints against the woman minister who had blessed same-sex unions were eventually dropped.

And the article that you linked to about the sexist priests specifically states that the Lutheran church is taking a tough stance AGAINST those who refuse to work with women priests.

Would it really be too much for you to ask to get your facts straight? Being an atheist is one thing, being against the church as an institution is another, and wasting everyone’s time with badly researched and obviously biased bull is a completely different matter altogether.

I am no longer a member of the church, but I recall the official policy of the church being that blessing the unions of same-sex couples is left to the discretion of the individual minister. In other words, in order to be useful these complaints should be printed on soft paper.

Or are you suggesting that the individuals who filed the complaints should be, um, (church lady voice) PUNISHED?

Meanwhile, in the Land of Freedom…

http://www.iltalehti.fi/nettitv/?27998500

The organization of religion is a problem and may have had a purpose in the beginning but now all it has become is divisive. It either needs to upgrade to today standards are find itself being diminished in the future.

What do you mean, state-supported? That’s not true, it’s the members of the church, who support it, not the state!

Or are you suggesting that the individuals who filed the complaints should be, um, (church lady voice) PUNISHED?

They can do whatever the hell they want, it’s their stupid club. Just don’t force the public to fund their bigoted behavior. Might as well use taxpayer money to support the skin-heads.

Or are you suggesting that the individuals who filed the complaints should be, um, (church lady voice) PUNISHED?

Well it was YLE who originally said “state-supported”…

Nearly nine out of 10 Finns are members of the state-supported Evangelical Lutheran Church.

But anyways, church members do pay out of their pockets, but some of the church funds come from the government’s budget. Also, the parliament occasionally votes on happenings of the church.

Actually every company pays ‘yhteisövero’, part of which goes to the church. So, in essence, it is state-supported.

I wish I could say that it surprises me that people who believe in talking snakes, virgin births, and Jewish zombies would have a problem with a nice lesbian couple getting their union blessed. But nope it doesn’t surprise me at all.

I know there are many writings on this but the problem doesn’t seem to be the church as much as it is the free ride unshakable faith gets in our society.

People are brainwashed to believe faith is a virtue and it has become a trump card for the faithful. They can believe anything they want and we can’t say a damn thing about it because it’s part of their faith! It’s time for rational people to stand up to this and tell people where they can go shove their faith.

As for the separation between church and state, I’m going to take the stance of to HELL with them both. The state has dominion over our mortal lives and the church our “eternal life”

I say my life is my own and your life is yours and neither of these oppressive regimes have any right to our lives.

This entry is a slightly sensationalist Iltasanomat style take on events. There are indeed priests (and others, including ordinary members) of the church who are against homosexuality (or even women priests) – but there are equally many with favourable views on both. I suspect those that are against such things have views similar to, for instance, the American president Bush (he has made statements on being against gay marriage). Does that mean the whole of the USA is bigoted? No – well, unless we use the standards of this entry to form a decision, in which case, yes.

Phil answer this,please…there is another religious group that supports the death penalty for homosexuals, and those that do not believe in their god, and refuse to convert to their religious imperatives!?
How come we are not allowed to talk about these people?
I bet you will not address this problem in this blog!
Remember I am an ATHEIST,and I feel threatened by this religious group,and I resist their attempts to make me submit to
their hegemony!…SATANA PERKELE!!..

“Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you.”

I heard from my American friend that this only applies to Mexicans, not Canadians. Why are Americans not allowed to own Canucks?

*Me wants a Swedish slave!*

The state and church should officially separate in Finland. Then the church can do what it sees fit. There is no sense in having the church under the thumb of the government.

If a church doesn’t want to unite homosexuals and call it “marriage”, fine with me. Why do we have to call same-sex people who wank together a “marriage”? Marriage is between a man and a woman, for the purpose of establishing a family. That is the way it has always been. Even the ancient Greeks, who were notorious for their homosexual activities, still had their wives and families. They didn’t call their homosexual relationships “marriages”.

I do think that homosexuals who live together should be given the same rights and responsibilities in taxation and social benefits as hetero couples, if they want to declare themselves as a domestic couple.

What do you get when you put two male dolphins in a tank together. Two male dolphins. That’s it. Even if they rub their sexual organs together every once in a while, which dolphins do, that doesn’t make them a breeding pair.

Besides, when that lesbian couple got married, one of them put on a men’s Scottish kilt + all the regalia. I find that very offensive, being of Scottish descent.

But the Lutheran Church is a biggot orginazation. So they have more than a few members with moderate christian views. The Lutheran Church still gives guidence to people straight out of the book that is intolerant of the gay life style.

WARNING!….WARNING!…INFINNDEL!!….

The *internut censor-chip device* is now deployed in the mythical
land called Finland-For-Thought!!..

Unapproved discussion of Politically incorrect and taboo subjects by
innocent victims such as >>infinndel the jenkki dogg<< will result in:

UKKO the GOD-of-SKY-and-THUNDER striking the bigot with a

**LIGHTNING BOLT**

There are indeed priests (and others, including ordinary members) of the church who are against homosexuality (or even women priests) – but there are equally many with favourable views on both.

In a company or organization, all it takes is one bigot – but in the Lutheran church, “half” seems to be an acceptable amount. Hmm…

How come we are not allowed to talk about these people?
I bet you will not address this problem in this blog!

This blog is about Finland, and since those people aren’t state-supported, I’ll leave that topic to the millions of other blogs

In a company or organization, all it takes is one bigot – but in the Lutheran church, “half” seems to be an acceptable amount. Hmm…
It’s massively, massively less than half in the Lutheran church. Equally was a poor English usage by me. Do you think the American government is bigoted given who its “chief executive” is? What about the American military? It’s not allowed to be openly gay there, is the American military bigoted? How is the American government and military paid for? From American tax money? At least, at an individual private person level, you can chose to leave the church and therefore not pay church tax.

I am not trying to excuse those members or priests within the Lutheran church who hold bigoted viewpoints. I agree that they are bigots who should be condemned and I would wish that the church would show even less tolerance of their membership than it does. The Finnish church has still someway to catch up with the other Scandinavian national churches in terms of progress. We have yet to get a woman bishop, for example. All I’m trying to say is that the entire organisation is not bigoted, it is a little unfair and over the top sensationalist to suggest that.

Remember also, the Orthodox church is also a state church. I am not 100 % sure (as I know shamefully little about the Orthodox church), but I’d guess they don’t even allow women priests.

Thanx,Phil for at least answering my challenge!….
Your wiggle room answer is a savvy, politically correct,diplomatic cop-out!

I quess I will have to refocus my bigoted atheistic attacks on the Evangelical Christian church movements,
in *U.S.of KKK-A.(tm Reverend Jeremiah Wright)*,that have a
bigoted hatred of Mitt Romney, a member of the Mormon church,and a possible Vice presidential candidate of John McCain!..
By this flip-flop,infinndel will finally gain acceptance at F.F.T!

Do you think the American government is bigoted given who its “chief executive” is? What about the American military? It’s not allowed to be openly gay there, is the American military bigoted?

yes, yes, yes. All bigots. “Dont ask, dont tell” and all that crap.

All I’m trying to say is that the entire organisation is not bigoted, it is a little unfair and over the top sensationalist to suggest that.

If Nokia was just sorta bigoted, would they get a pass? Hell no.

Lesbos getting married in a Christian church ? screw that. let those rug eating homos get married in the forest and stay out of the bloody churches. I dont care if the lesbos want to hitch up to eat carpet. but get marrieds in the forest like the rest of the woods. hahaha, damn lesbos..hahahah

Rule one of churches, no lesbos! and no other form of homos. its their rules. you dont like the anti homo rule ? dont join the club. dont force your pig headed opinion on their religion. wait till islam takes roots here, then you’ll reealy have something to bitch about. You dont like the rules, joint the lesbo church and get married. period.

Anyone checking da filter?

@ Anonymous: Never mind “born there”, he is just a sad, retarded skinhead who happened to be born here, moved with his family to Sweden (my guess), was bullied i skolan, and now feels it’s his obligation to troll in this blog.

a fitting comic:
http://cectic.com/157.html

I don’t care.

This is kind of shocking. I’ve never been to Finland, but I’ve always thought that Finns are relatively tolerant toward gays and other minority groups. Aside from this church incident, is this true generally?

Which is more shocking? That you’ve never been to Finland? Or that you think?

If Nokia was just sorta bigoted, would they get a pass? Hell no.
Do you read the papers?!

But seriously, I think you’re living in a world disconnected with reality if you really think that the church is going to conform to the same norms as other organisations. It has a rather unique claim in its belief that it exists because of god and has a rather more complex history. Imagine what its universal and official attitudes on such matters would have been 100 years ago. At least today, such stupid bigots are a very small minority within the church and attract condemnation when they rear their ugly heads. Years ago, they would have been congratulated and they’d be the people setting the official rules.

Yes, things aren’t moving fast enough in the church. But, I don’t think that really justifies condemning the whole institution because of a minority of its members. I doubt every employee of the American federal government is a homophobe just because the president is a bigot on such matters. The problem with sensationalism like this is it leads to comments like number 27.

24. hahaha, your a good guesser, but like many frozen brainers here, your wrong again, PUTZ!. You dont like my opinion ? go back to mother russia. Yes lesbos should stay out of the church and I for one would support their own church, with a lezbian woman on the cross and all that huplah.
Yes i support a lesbian church, and i vote for you 24 to hold the holy dildoe at the mass. You sick freak. And as for the sweden thing. oh please keep dreaming. Its funny to see the lesbo man/shemale crowd crying, waaa waaa. cry to your mother, she is the only one that5 cares for you.

dont force the lesbos ionto my church, and i wont force a penus on their lives. The church is not and never has been a lesbo organization. Its part of a religion, not club for the leftist to cry about.

You dont like the church? stay out. go to a mosque, you dot like the mosque go to a synagogue, you dont like all 3 ? make your own church, why you aint got brains enough to start your own church you Eu trash ? The Euro trashes have started many churches, why you different ? your not.

And the thing what you do with your hands…. it is bad.

Phil, you really should check up on at least some of the background before going on a rant. All that has happened so far is that two people have filed complaints with the Espoo Cathedral Chapter.

A similar complaint over a similar incident was raised a couple of years ago, but no action was taken against the cleargywoman in question.

You people are driving me nuts

Yes Juki but once you start believing in talking snakes, virgin births and that you can survive your own death. Then you will have made it.

33. to add that the clergywoman was 70 and been retired for a while so she said they can defrock her all they want…

>>>Besides, when that lesbian couple got married, one of them put on a men’s Scottish kilt + all the regalia. I find that very offensive, being of Scottish descent.<<<

I understand. But I know her, and she was just wearing her band costume. If you oppose, you shoul oppose to the bag pipe orchesctra of Helsinki. She plays in it.

#27: No one is tolerant anywhere. It’s a natural human tendency to see members of “my tribe” and “enemy tribes” around you. But Finland has millennial traditions of certain self-determination. Unlike the rest of Europe, in medieval Sweden (including Finland) the peasants were legally free men, not owned and enslaved by the nobility. Also, East Finland has been a country of slash-and-burn farmers up to the modern times. Such lifestyle necessarily involves a certain individualism. None of this guarantees being not bigoted, but it makes it easier for the culture to accommodate the ideas of tolerance and equality under law.

It is interesting to see that there appears to be little need for gay people in Finland to be really flamboyant, stress their difference from the rest and assemble together in gay villages. I believe this is because the modern Finnish culture includes a principle of non-interference, that is, the idea that whether or not I accept them, it is still their business, as long as it’s legal. Finns are also big on believing in the law (legalistic).

I think the church has a full right not to marry homosexuals. Why would they wan’t to be married by an anti-homosexual institution anyway.

Homosexuality is forbidden in the Bible, both in the old and new testament, that is why evangelical churches refuse to sanction same-gender ‘marriage’. If two guys wants to wank off with eachother thats fine, but don’t expect a church to believe or bless that action. In the Bible, those actions are anathema. Why bother with going to a church anyway if you dont follow the good book. Phil you should shove a mac up your ass.

#40:

The NT also forbids blood and non-kosher meat (Acts 15:20). So far none of the “sound doctrine” Christian churches haven’t bothered to care, so what’s the fuss about packing fudge?

well, one of the reasons why i left the churc:. eroakirkosta.fi

The NT also forbids blood and non-kosher meat (Acts 15:20). So far none of the “sound doctrine” Christian churches haven’t bothered to care, so what’s the fuss about packing fudge?

Eating blood is a health issue. Always has been, always will be. The Israelites were warned about this when God gave the Law to Moses. This is why eating rare or medium-rare steaks can be very risky. The meat isn’t cooked through well enough. As for non-kosher meats, that has actually been done away with. What is more at stake is the food sacrificed to idols. If one is a new convert and still has hangups about eating certain foods, then those who are more mature in the faith need to be accomodating to the younger brethren. (1 Corinthians 8:4-13).

As for homosexuality, you cannot naturally reproduce children. No matter how many people try to justify their actions through their abominations and call it “natural,” the truth and reality behind it is that there is nothing natural nor healthy about it. The Holsinger report is proof of this. Furthermore, there is not just one verse that bans it. Granted, many would only cite Leviticus, but there’s also Romans 1 as well. A basic rule of thumb is that if whatever is mentioned in the Old Testament carried over into the New Testament, that “ruling” (for lack of a better word) still stands. Same thing goes for the Ten Commmandments.

You guys may hate it and try to change it, but it’s all there in the original text.

Jason:
“Eating blood is a health issue. Always has been, always will be.”

Nothing wrong with a good verilettu, from a health perspective. But you holy book bans it.

“As for non-kosher meats, that has actually been done away with.”

Do I need to draw a picture? “Not strangled” means kosher.

“As for homosexuality, you cannot naturally reproduce children.”

What does that have to do with anything?

“You guys may hate it and try to change it, but it’s all there in the original text.”

It is you who is trying to do away with Scripture. I’m an atheist – I really couldn’t care less.

#44

“As for homosexuality, you cannot naturally reproduce children.”

What does that have to do with anything?

You didn’t seem to have a problem with “packing fudge.” Sure, you’re an atheist and you could careless. I could go on and on about what Scripture says about the self-destructive tendencies of homosexuality, but as the old saying goes, “A leopard cannot change his spots on his own.”

It is you who is trying to do away with Scripture. I’m an atheist – I really couldn’t care less.
Excuse the pun, but please “enlighten” me on how I am trying to do away with Scripture. After all, “atheists” appear to have all the answers. This should prove to be an interesting response.

Jason:
“You didn’t seem to have a problem with “packing fudge.”

I certainly don’t care very deeply about fictional beings’ opinion of it. Being a humanist of a sort, I do care about people’s ability to live and love without the (Jesus) taleban’s intervention.

“Excuse the pun, but please “enlighten” me on how I am trying to do away with Scripture.”

Well, for one, you are ignoring the ban on blood and non-kosher food, as we discussed earlier.

Also your money-worshipping evident in another post might raise and eyebrow or two in the early church, but that is another issue altogether.

Here’s a perfect example of Christian hypocrisy at its best: Gay-bashing mommy refers to her new husband. Hello? Did we miss something?

http://www.christianitytoday.com/tcw/1997/novdec/7w6046.html?start=2

Confirmation camps should be banned, its not compulsary to go but it seams there is a certain social presure behind it to go.
when they get the kids confirmed the church makes quite alot of money from there future earnings. £300 on my girlfriends paycheck per year. Now that is bullshit!!!
and what do they do with that money, build horrible new style churches.
There is a new church being built in my area of Jyväskylä, from the architecs picture it looks like a large black triangle, next to a bari and s-market. Garbage!! don’t dive any money to finnish church, send it direct to real charitys.

12HLKKFJBEA I like it very much!