is Starbucks hitting Finnish streets anytime soon?

Have you tried that stuff? The Finnish Dr. Pepper (at least as sold in .5l bottles) tastes awful. While living abroad, I tasted Dr.Pepper cautiously, expecting it to be bad (I think I had drunk it in Finland, previously) and was pleasantly surprised.

When I got back home, I nearly threw up when I put that stuff in my mouth.

I make a point of asking people to bring me that stuff from Estonia (they get theirs bottled in somewhere in Eastern Europe).

My colleague just told me that they tried to bring Dr. Pepper to Finland in the 80′s, he even remembers some marketing jingle they had created. Apparently it wasn’t too successful at the time.

is Starbucks hitting Finnish streets anytime soon?

Ugh, I hope not, but I’m sure they’ll try. Finland already has nice coffee shops, I don’t think Finland needs another big chain coffee shop.

Yeah, we also didn’t have a real school massacre befere 2007, I think next we’ll be having missing children’s pictures on milk cartons. And soon we will be completely respectable with real slums and no-go areas! Just give us time.

Anyway, I still wonder why you never write about the scandalous cartel that is the Finnish retail sector – the S and K chains dominate the sector totally and are truly not sweating about competing with each other. They have tons of ties with local politicians and you can see Sokos and Kesko parties even in Eduskunta. Is it because this seems to be the fault of the private sector and not at least directly due to the welfare state? As your points about Finnish shortcomings are mostly rather imaginary, it would be refreshing to address a really embarrassing failure that can’t be explained away…

Yeah, we did have Dr. Pepper in the eighties. (I remember buying and drinking it.) Then it went away for something like 15 years. Therefore, I’d say, Finland is a nation of the future – it’s already the second coming of Dr.Pepper here.

I wish we could get Koskinkorva vodka here in Massachusetts.
Also Lapin Kulta,Koff 4b and other Finn olut…I wish I could get Karelian paisties with warm egg butter in local coffee shops.
That would be a great way to start the day…
BUT NOOO!!..SATANA PERKELA!

Where’s this? Omena? I’m so getting a six-pack. Love that crap.

I remember the advert, it had this hippie with a top hat on a trike in the desert. The jingle was something like… doktor pepper, juu es ei, toiset tykkää, toiset ei… Stuff tastes like marzipan. Mountain Dew is better

#1 This has popped up before… the “players” have more or less gotten the locations already and have a strong stand so I don’t think they’d be able to get huge profits. I mean look at McD or PizzaHut – they’re chains they’re trying to sell but nobody wants and theres no Burger King or KFC coming either…

Still not findable here: FRITOS (ARGH!!!)

Finally findable here: Binder clips (they rule!)

Rarely findable here:
1) Decent Buffalo-style chicken wings (but only here and there; most of the “wings” on offer are some kind of “barbeque”-flavor crap)
2) Proper peanut butter (there’s Skippy at Stokka; the Brit brands are foul garbage where they remove the peanut oil and then add in tropical oils plus some sugar to mask the violence done to the flavor)

Dr. Pepper tastes like some sort of detergent, or at least what I think a detergent would taste like.

mjr, Hank wrote about the S and K cartel a while ago.

Starbucks did a marketing research in Finland some years ago.They came to a conclusion that the chain would not be succesful. There have been nice coffee shops in Finland for 100+ years.

#1: and you consider Starbucks PROGRESS? American coffee is like homeopathy, dilute until only the memory is left.

#7: add a little sugar to Finlandia Vodka; this is the same as Koskenkorva.

#10: It was in Kauppalehti a few days ago that McDonald’s Finland is making a loss for the eleventh (11th) year in a row. The only reason they don’t file for bankruptcy right now is the constant cash flow from the parent company in the United States. Return on invested capital is -8% (loss), cf. Hesburger’s +30%. For some reason the Americans are philanthropists and want to employ a large number of Finnish youths. They claim to be improving, and explain that in fact many franchising restaurants are profitable. If it doesn’t work, then there’ll be nothing but Hesburger.

#6 “Yeah, we did have Dr. Pepper in the eighties. (I remember buying and drinking it.) Then it went away for something like 15 years.”

I also remember Dr. Pepper in Finland in the 1980s in standard 1-litre glass bottles. When it suddenly disappeared from the shelves, I asked the shopkeeper what had happened, I was told that it was bottled by Hartwall, which also bottled Coca Cola at the time.

When Coke Headquarters in Atlanta found out that their bottler was also bottling DP, they managed to use their muscle to persuade the Finnish company to drop their rival. For a long time after that, Doctor Pepper seemed to be available only in certain specialty shops, imported in bottles and cans and sold at a fairly high price.

Amaretto + Beer, tastes exactly like Dr. Pepper.

I read the thing about Macdonalds in Husis too. Apparently in their history of operating in Finland, they’ve only made a profit during one single year. Not surprising, their food tastes like cardboard. Although food is not really the right word to use for what they sell.

I am not, myself, certain that it is progress. Well, progress further forward in our road to achieving the same average weight as the Americans perhaps. I hope people having children these days aren’t giving them all these junk drinks at home, aside from the weight and health issue, the queues to the dentists are long enough already!

you are right plus Starbucks is hitting an all-low figures right now..

i wish Finnish coffee was good

Now I want someone to walk into a supermarket in US and if there’s no big mämmi-shelf, then we shall declare US as backwatered cultureless void!

#13 – That’s good to hear (when was it?) but Phil’s take would be kind of interesting. Hank shares our common empirical reality and is completely rational – in contrast the libertarian angle would be fascinating. What would he blame?

Just had some Finn relatives from Oulu here with me for two weeks. They say most of the soda we have here tastes funny to them, especially the diet versions. They tried cream soda and root beer and were almost repulsed by the taste of the stuff. I guess I should not be amazed that big labels such as coke or pepsi reformat their products for local tastes.

Keep up the good work – love reading this blog!

Mark

Phil, you think 3-euros for a can is expensive?? In my experience, the Finns don’t mind overpaying for everything. Why should soda be any different? Or overpriced cartels for that matter – why would a Finn ever stand up and complain against the hyvinvointivaltio ideology that enables them to exist?

I guess the only way I will get KARJALAN PIRAKKA with warm egg butter
is if I learn how to make it myself…I know it is a lot of work to make….Anyone know a good ,easy to manage recipe!?…My Finn/AmeriKKKan friends and relatives would be impressed if I could whip out the great pasties!!…

In Massachusetts a case (24- 12 ounce cans),can be found on sale in many stores for as low as $6-$8 dollars !!!… I feel sorry for Finn
DR.PEPPER addicts!….Going- to- a-mer-iKKK-a………
boom-boom-CHIK!!

Where’s this? Omena? I’m so getting a six-pack. Love that crap.

Yup!

Still not findable here: FRITOS (ARGH!!!)

I want Cheetos!

Good point, real root beer would be a blessing on warm summer days.
After all, Dr Pepper is just carbonated prune juice…

I want Burger King to Helsinki.

Oh, and PASTRAMI!! Where’s the goddamned PASTRAMI?!? Corned beef is strictly optional.

mjr: Here’s the Hank post on grocery prices: http://www.finlandforthought.net/2008/07/08/phils-cousin-gets-the-cheap-chicken/ There’s discussion on the K/S oligopoly in the comments.

Cheers, Turjake! I even added the following comment, but I guess the thread is dead by now.

“Yes, but how is the welfare state prohibiting competition? We actually do have free market in the retail sector. Go and check. No state shops, no socialism, no rationing, no price controls. Lidl got in – we have several domestic chains. The government is not interfering with special offers and price competition. Why does the cartel exist?”

#16 reason for the high price was the cans and bottles weren’t part of the “return cartel” so there was an extra charge on such wicked things.

As far as ginger ale goes I get Old Jamaica…

But you can get A&W root beer if you go to the funky stores.

#32: Unfortunately, A&W kinda blows.

#32: also in recent Kauppalehti, it was explained that stores make huge profits on hard alcohol and over-the-counter drugs. Without them, the multinational chains have no incentive to enter the Finnish market. (In Finland, even OTC drugs are sold at licensed pharmacies, and the government enterprise Alko has a liquor retail monopoly.) Other reasons are restrictions on opening hours that harm small stores the most. Even if these laws may appear as purely “moral policy”, they do affect real economics.

why Finnish coffee sucks?

You can ask any foreigner. He will say the same thing..

Starbucks just announced they are closing 600 shops in the US so I highly doubt they’ll try to move into a market where the locals love their awful, but strong, coffee. I seem to remember a story about some part of the family that used sawdust in their coffee in the war to make it go farther. Hard to sell ‘gourmet’ coffee in a market like that.

If you want terrific coffee, try Tunisia.

And Lenin is right about A&W.

Well, fair enough, booze and drugs are out of the question, and there are some restrictions over the opening hours, but come on – does that mean that you can’t compete seriously with the 95% (at least) of the sales volume? I argue boldly that the root cause is an unstated understanding between Sokos and Kesko that profits are best maximized with this cosy non-competition. I mean these dominant chains used to actually share their logistical operations. How can one meaningfully compete in such an environment?

Ahhh, the Finn in his overtaxed welfare state wonders why there are so many ripoff cartels. Let’s see, no competition because nobody’s got enough money to start a new company?

Naw, it must somehow be due to the weather

@ 38, mjr

It is hard to say what causes the “cosy non-competition” between S & K, as you call it.

But, Finns had cartel-like organisations over the years, like Finnpap, Finncell, etc. which were gradually dismantled in the 1990′s, I believe, by EU directives.

Also, during the Kekkonen period particularly, the bilateral trade agreement between the Soviet Union and Finland allowed for Finnish business favourites to get export rights, that made strange bedfellows between socialist politicians, the business elite etc. that probably also affected the domestic markets by lack of cartel busting.

Recently, cartel-like situations have developed with Kone, the paper industry, and domestic asphalt industry.

So, in Finland, there has not been very active cartel busting done domestically. It has only occurred as a result of EU membership, or some similar outside pressure.
http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Cartels+The+spirit+lives+on/1076152947297

The question that is begged is why the lack of motivation to curtail these activities.

One possible problem perhaps is that in most countries there is a reltively ease of entry for new competitors. Because the existing players own so much of the market already, and Finns have this kotimainen laatu (domestic quality) bias, and entrepreneur development is also affected by a negative bias, potential domestic and foreign competitors to the large players don’t exist, and probably won’t for a long time in the future.

So,MJR, you might just have to endure the high prices.

I have a theory about Finland’s high coffee consumption. It’s all about the latitude.

In the winter, you need it just to keep your damned eyes open.

And in the summer? Well heck, who wants to go to sleep? Just look at this glorious weather! And the sun is out! Let’s party!

One thing of interest is the case of Pommac for example. I believe Finland is the only place on earth where it is made. Somebody correct me here, but I believe that Sweden is the only other place where it is sold. Recently Synebrychof (sp?) attempted to stop production but was deluged with requests not to stop production, so they continue

Since we are on the subject of sodas, esp. Dr. Pepper and its success it is notable to point out that exactly the same thing happened when Pommac was brought to the USA as when Dr. Pepper was brought to Finland

I saw a place on the internet that imported Pommac to the USA recently and sold them for $5 a bottle.

BTW What is the difference between Mr. Pibb and Dr. Pepper? Is one more educated than the other ?

Really, no money, that’s the explanation? That’s it? Oh, you libertarians, the fountains of original thought. Should have known, of course. I guess the problem is that the Theory doesn’t allow for market failures, so when there is one, empirically, it can’t be, because the ideology says otherwise. So there you go, no problem, see, there is just no money in Finland. We don’t need no Marxist-Leninists or Freudians, we have libertarians these days monopolizing the blind faith market… Although you sound actually dumb enough to be a witty parody.

How come Schweppes Bitter Lemon is only sold in cans or small bottles in Finland? No matter what supermarket! No 1 1/2L bottles, like the Ginger ale?! Oh and €4,30 for 4 cans?

Just out of interest, how easy is it to find a bottle of Hartwall Jaffa in Walmart in Washington DC? And what price should I expect to pay for it? Sometimes people seem to have a strange attitude towards what should be on a Finnish supermarket’s shelf. Could it be that different markets have different likes and dislikes? No, stupid me. Such an idea is clearly mad.

Where is Canada Dry tonic water? The Schweppes is carbonated cat whizz. It offends my Tanqueray-enhanced sensibilities!

And beware, the Starbucks borg may yet invade. Check this article:

http://www.wired.com/gadgets/miscellaneous/magazine/16-08/mf_clover?currentPage=all

It seems that they bought the company that makes the Clover uberkaffeemachine. And it sounds like the Clover really would be the solution to lame Finnish coffee. I can’t say I’m overwhelmed by (for example) Wayne’s; maybe someone can post some recommendations.

Hahaha!

you americans loving your junk food…

what is the saying? you can take the fat ass american out of the USA but you cant take the fat ass from the american???

anyhow, yes this is and “ok” drink, but so what!? there’s tons of stuff from my country I can’t get here..so I adapt..I adjust…

don’t you have a speck of self discipline?

Although I saw Snickers in Finland last month, I still have not found M&Ms.

Perhaps that is a good thing. Fazer chocolate is much better than anything in the US.

As for coffee. Finnish mass sold coffee is leaps and bounds ahead of American mass sold coffee, i.e., Folgers.

As for products in the US. I haven’t seen any lortsy (or however it is spelled) on my bakery shelves for a long time. We do have a bakery down the street that sells limpa bread. Good herring is not to be found, either.

M&Ms are sold on the boats.
Yes mass market Finnish coffee beats mass market Yanqui coffee — by a mile!

But shall we talk about BEER

I’ll have a Chinotto

The bar with the world’s largest selection of beer is the Brickskeller in Washington DC. Twenty years ago they did not have ANY Finnish beers, which was an international scandal, but nowadays they have two, which is of course infinitely better than zero:

http://www.lovethebeer.com/beer-list.html
KATAJA Olut IV B Sahti
SINEBRYCHOFF Porter 1999

On the other hand it is distressing that there is so much Yanqui beer here in Finland, but at least it’s overpriced and drunk mainly (only?) by junttis.

I’ll bet those Finnish beers are cheaper in America than they are in Finland LOL!

#44: Pommac’s origins are Swedish, not Finnish:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pommac

“BTW What is the difference between Mr. Pibb and Dr. Pepper?”

Mr. Pibb (more recently “Pibb Xtra”) is basically Coke’s attempt to cash in on DP’s success. In much the same way “Mello Yello” is Coca Cola’s attempt to copy Pepsico’s Mountain Dew.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mello_Yello

innfindel:
“I wish we could get Koskinkorva vodka here in Massachusetts.”

Kossu (if you mean the original) is now officially kosher. Perhaps you should ask your local synagogue?

#55…RIGHT!…and like….they would tell me also where to get
kosher pork sausage and pork chops!..

@54 Funny I was in Sweden this past weekend and I was not able to find Pommac anywhere.

BTW I think Synebrychoff is the only maker of Pommac right now

#57 “BTW I think Synebrychoff is the only maker of Pommac right now”

If that’s the case, then I think that it’s rather interesting that the beverage is praised so profusely on the Hartwall website:

http://www.hartwall.fi/en/Products/Drinks/Soft-drinks/Pommac/

A search on the net revealed that Carlsberg planned to stop manufacturing Pommac in 2004, but reversed the decision, following a massive public outcry.

#42: “Since we are on the subject of sodas, esp. Dr. Pepper and its success it is notable to point out that exactly the same thing happened when Pommac was brought to the USA as when Dr. Pepper was brought to Finland”

What goes around, comes around. When Pommac was generally available in the USA in the 1960s, it was distributed by – Dr. Pepper.

http://www.dallashistory.org/cgi-bin/webbbs_config.pl?noframes;read=10230

infinndel:
“#55…RIGHT!…and like….they would tell me also where to get
kosher pork sausage and pork chops!”

Don’t believe me? It bears rabbi Moshe Edelmann’s certificate in Hebrew.

http://www.ksml.fi/uutiset/kotimaa/kossu-on-nyt-todistetusti-kosheria(153431).ece

Let’s try with a more kosher link:

http://www.ksml.fi/uutiset/kotimaa/kossu-on-nyt-todistetusti-kosheria(153431).ece

I give up, this POS is goy beyond any shadow of hope.

#62….God bless your broken hyper-links’ little heart!..

There are so many things missing on the shelves of Finnish supermarkets : the choice of consumer products is so limited. It can’t possibly be because of the small size of the population, because I am from a small country with a population 50 times less than that of Finland, yet the variety in our stores is so much more than in FI. Possibly it is because we are located so close to the USA, and thus importing those products is easier than in Fi.

The Finns need to demand more variety , and maybe they will receive it. But when they just blindly and mutely accept everything which K Market ans S Market dish out, therein lies the problem.

#64 – I don’t think it is that simple. I suspect strongly that there still is some sort of unspoken understanding between S and K logistics (they used to actually share the operations earlier). They are very profitable enterprisess and can make the life a new comer very difficult. And we are distant and small market, so maybe people just think it is not worth the effort. But we have to burst the dam somehow.

Finnish Dr Pepper in “half Light”. It has artificial sweeteners as well as sugar. American versions usually have corn suryp and other countries typically use sugar only.

wonderfully different: <<<There are so many things missing on the shelves of Finnish supermarkets : the choice of consumer products is so limited.<<< So, tell me what is missing. I certainly don´t crave after some artificial drink. Why would people need MORE MORE MORE? What exactly is missing? And I don´t mean some brand that is easily replaced by another brand.

And the jingle was, of course:
Doctor Pepper, Jyy Es Ei
Toiset tykkää, toiset ei
JYY ES EI
DD

where can I buy root beer?
I live in a small town (pori) so there isn’t any funky small shops to get it from. Do any of the bigger shops sell any?

MostLouis Vuitton women by the
 supportLouis Vuitton sunglasses of
manyprada Outlet ofour products,
increasingCoach Factory Outlet online,
Prada bagsChristian Louboutin let
 you buy Coach handbagsfelt relieved,
 with Chanel walletenjoyable.Our
 productsPrada bags will Gucci shoesbring you
fun Louis Vuitton sunglassesWelcome you visit.