Many people think wood emits a lot, but the CO2 that comes from burning wood came from the the current environment and goes back into the current environment. Petroleum and coal, on the other hand, brings up CO2 from another era and adds it to the environment.

“Saunas are as necessary as SUV’s. Finns expect Americans to get rid of their SUV’s to help save the planet, while Finland should do the same by ending electric sauna use.”

I agree. These stupid apartment saunas are the SUV’s of Finland. There’s nothing wrong with proper wood-heated saunas from a CO2 perspective and common electric saunas are more energy efficient.

I like the sauna, but too much is too much. The 1hr turn once a week with a few laps in the pool is enough for me.

Even more than making more prudent choices of transportation, Americans should learn to insulate their homes.

I agree with you… but doesn’t the electric sauna save trees?

graet post Phil

uh GREAT

Wait wait wait, you guys and gals aren’t supposed to agree with me! you’re supposed to laugh at me and remind me of Finnish culture, history, etc…

But I’d like to hear a politician agree with us. It seems like sauna is one of those sacred cows in Finland.

I had no idea they gobbled up so much energy, two saunas per week = PC on 24/7 !? I’m not sure if I should feel guilty about taking two saunas per week (that’s my norm) or feel better about leaving my computer on all the time! LOL!

Finland has a lot of heavy duty industry like huge steel factory in Tornio. Swedes do not even make ships anymore like we do. Almost all of the biggest cruise ships have been built in Finland. Also oil rigs are being built here that are used in Gulf of Mexico. Those all require a lot of energy.

Haha, I suggested as much a long time ago. Finns should also stop lighting candles (inside and out) everytime they turn around and stop burning the midsummer barnfires. Hell, Finland is on fire almost all the time. Half the time the candles are lit for people who aren’t even here to enjoy them any longer.

Stop eating ices cream as well. The carbon footprint for that stuff is huge.

Historically, Europe’s CO2 output has been greater than the US and it might be related that Europe is showing greater temp increases than the US, some of which has been undergoing cooling for the last 100 years (SE US).

So nevrmind what we are up to, take a good long, hard look at yourselves.

Oh yes – Trees love CO2!

Tornio steel factory produces 1,2 MILLION tonnes of steel and requires 2,5 Terawatthours per year, more than the Turku area (2 TWH), population of about 250 000.

Tim, Finland is a minnow in the world of ship building. Just another false fact sorry. South Korea, China, Germany, The Philippines, Poland, even Italy all are well ahead of this great ship building land.
Finland rolls out a liner every few years and everyone goes bravo, we’re the leader. Sorry, those nasty little Korenas roll out multiple ships daily.

But we make the biggest ships .

Unlike SUV’s, sauna’s are part of finnish culture that goes very deeply into our history, so its little bit different witha sauna than with SUV. In the states housing insulation is worse than the insulation summer homes in finland have.

Phil: When are you going to post something other than politics bs in this blog. Since it is “Politics, current events, culture – In Finland & United States”. Couple of years back you had lot more non political posts, are you planning on running for office since you’re preaching nowdays so much .

Actually you don’t do that either. The biggest ships, supertankers are built in Asia primarily and the second biggest, the Nimitz class carriers of the USN are/were built in Virginia USA.

Nice try though.

Before you answer save your breath, I know what you’ll say.

For once the evil USA is not to blame here? Come on guys you are lowering the standards.

Now a Hummer is part of the USA culture, same as a Sauna. Gee, its must feel kinda good to find out you are evil after all.

Pure evil, yep I will fire up the Sauna for you all. Even bought those sausages someone suggested.

There is no doubt about it. Someday a directive banning all saunas will roll out from the EU and will finally reveal the sorry state of this country. Government and the people won’t do a thing about it. On the contrary, there will be letters to the editor in HS, how only those countryside juntti-Einari’s still go to sauna and the whole ban just serves them right…

Coming to think about it, they could build all those wind turbines to power a special network for electric saunas. The stove doesn’t mind, whether the voltage varies with the wind, as long as the average power is enough. This would save a lot as the control mechanisms of the hydropowerplants won’t wear out so quickly as they would when compensating whims of the windpower.

“The biggest ships, supertankers are built in Asia primarily and the second biggest, the Nimitz class carriers of the USN are/were built in Virginia USA.”

I was talking about biggest passenger ships, not cargo or war ships.

“LONDON: Royal Caribbean Cruises has ordered the world’s largest cruise ship, agreeing to pay Europe’s biggest shipbuilder a record E900 million for a vessel that would carry 5,400 passengers, the companies said Monday.

The ship, named Project Genesis and costing the equivalent of $1.08 billion, would be 43 percent bigger than the next largest cruise liner, Freedom of the Seas, said the shipbuilder, Aker Yards, which is based in Oslo.

Aker Yards’ Finnish division is scheduled to deliver the Freedom of the Seas to Royal Caribbean in April and the Project Genesis ship in late 2009.”

Ah…. So you were talking about making the most/biggest whatever ships that aren’t the most/biggest except for a category that is the……

Oh Tim, you need a drink I think.

Wow, A SHIP! In the same time the South Koreans will pump out 100′s of ships, not “The Biggest Passenger Ships” granted but 100′s of ships in any case. Oh, and I think they’re even profitable

Finns are the worst villains. Yes, Finland should do its part.
http://patrickmccoy.typepad.com/lost_in_translation/2008/01/the-monopolist.html

Punter: And Australia is doing what? Mining and serving drinks to tourists? Oh, and you got that crocodile dundee thing.

“Under the name “Project Genesis” the ship will be built at Aker’s yards in Finland for delivery in late 2009. It will measure 360 metres (1,181 feet) in length and 47 metres across.”

It is about the size of this one:

“The MS Berge Stahl is the largest bulk carrier ship in the world. The Berge Stahl is 1,122 feet (343m), has a beam, or width, of 208.3 feet (65m), and a draft, or depth in the water, of 23m.”

Cut the crap !

« Wait wait wait, you guys and gals aren’t supposed to agree with me! you’re supposed to laugh at me and remind me of Finnish culture, history, etc… »

I won’t talk about culture. I’ll just talk about numbers :

According to http://www.ecolo.org/documents/documents_in_french/CO2-calculateur-AEPNcomplet.xls every kWh of electrical energy in Finland is equivalent to 400g of CO2.

That means, that the sauna twice a week every year corresponds to :
- 2000km/year in a Prius (110g/km)
- 500km/year in a SUV (400g/km)
- ONE (only one!) flight both way in economy class from Helsinki to Stockholm
- do Helsinki-San Francisco in buisness class both way and you’ll have to skip sauna during 30 (thirty) years

Come on ! Cars are a plague, and so are planes, they’re the worst problem on an individual scale. Not the saunas.

Finland is behaving bad because of its lack off efforts on public transportations, green transportations aren’t really encouraged (like feet or bicycles not as much used as in other countries). The country is big, people have their isolated cottages to reach on week-end. Getting there is the problem, not the mökkin sauna. An other problem is the bad luck : no wind, no mountains, no sun, no volcano to use for green energy (well, at least there is the forest which definitely is a green energy). And of course it’s polluting heavy industry (30% of energy consumption, I believe it’s Europe’s record).

Conclusion : go to sauna twice a week, but, hell, throw your car away and avoid planes as much as possible if you want to do something useful.

Punter: Cruise ships are way more complex to build than any cargo ship that basically are just huge empty spaces filled with steel walls. The number of different subcontractors is simply huge in cruise ship building.

actually according to your soyrce for all things “WIKI”, the Berge Stahl only rates no.10 although 2 in that list are scrapped. As you said, all the subcontractors involved and let me guess, they’re all from Turku?

As for Australia and their mining and stuff, the economy is doing very nicely thank you. Any way, you Finns have to get your minerals and materials from somewhere you know? Not too much in the ground here. Oh wait, you have very valuable mines and new ones coming up north too A natural bounty of wealth. Twat

If you do not care about C02 emissions and would like to actually benefit from it, move to Finland. We will most likely have warmer and pleasant summers and a plenty of fresh water to sell to the world while the rest of Europe will experience megadroughts and too hot summers.
Even better, Sweden and Norway will actually shield us from megastorms coming from Atlantic, too bad for them

Finland will be like lovely little duck pond while the rest of world goes totally fubar. Well, shit happens

Sauna is sacred, end of discussion.

Seeing how climate change increases the CO2 count and the CO2 count does not increase global temperature (do some reading, not opinion articles but scientific reading, Al Gore is not a scientist, he looks at the studies backwards). I will continue to go to the sauna twice a week and leave my computer on. If I still had a car i would drive it without feeling one iota of guilt. Everyone keeps screaming that the sky is falling, it’s not that is a US spy satellite, everyone jumps on the worst case scenario bandwagon and chastises those not cleaning up the carbon foot print. F that, I will continue to eat my ice cream as the world gets warmer, at no fault of my CO2 emissions.

Cheers

Tristram,

suggesting that people bike in winter Finland is a stupid idea. Yes people do it, but it is freaking dangerous. You are five times more likely to get into an accident riding a bike in Finland than walking.

Also, living in the countryside of Finland without a car is inhuman punishment. Adding enough public transport in those areas will leave a much larger CO2 cloud than the cars which spend most of their time parked anyway.

“Finland will be like lovely little duck pond while the rest of world goes totally fubar. Well, shit happens ”

So are you off to your Sauna experience? Feel guilty? at All?

Hey, lay off the sauna! Although, of course, we could all go in wood burning ones instead of electric – as I understand it, burning wood releases the same CO2 as would be released if the wood naturally decomposed, of course a hell of a lot quicker than that! But then, in this country, when a tree is felled another is planted which will then tie up the same CO2… isn’t that right? Besides, wood saunas give a much better löyly anyway!

Anyway, to compare saunas to SUVs seems a little unfair. I mean, I’m not Finnish (well, not completely!) but I understand it’s a part of life here. So much so that the old saying goes something along the lines that if you’re ill and a sauna, tar and liquor don’t get you better then you’re gonna die! (Don’t ask me what the tar is all about, did they was with it in the old days or what?)

SUVs, however, not so much necessity or indeed tradition as frivolity, at least for most. Some people do actually need them, like people who actually go offroading and live up a mountain or whatever I have no problem with offroading and stuff like that as a hobby, if that’s what you’re into (I want to try it myself one day) The problem is the ‘soccer moms’ as I believe they’re called, and others like them, who really could be in that Toyota Prius just as well seeing as their SUVs have probably never seen anything but asphalt! Back in London there’s millions of these urban tanks driving around the centre of town, rich mums dropping off little Johnny in his blazer and tie to his school and then parking all over the place because they can barely see out of the window of their cars!

That’s why the Ford Explorer featured on Time magazine’s list of 50 worst cars – not because there’s anything wrong with it (well, apart from all that business with them rolling over for no apparent reason!) but because they started the SUV trend in the States. http://www.time.com/time/specials/2007/article/0,28804,1658545_1658544_1658534,00.html

Before anyone gets too defensive, I actually have en Explorer myself I don’t drive it much, though, and I have needed it for building projects and things, but that’s not the point – I’m still a terrible eco terrorist for owning it and have to hang my head in shame I can think about the consequences of owning such a vehicle next time I’m burning up kilowatts in the sauna It is nice to drive though!

Yes, we need to do a lot more with our green planning. It hardly helps when you have Kok and Kesk conspiring with each other to create an LA-style urban sprawl in the capital region. Helsinki’s annexation of south west Sipoo is another anti-environment move, as it encourages low density housing spread a long distance away from the core of the municipality. Helsinki’s existing territory could hardly be considered densely inhabitated in comparison with many other European capitals (e.g. Stockholm has more persons / quadratic km and hardly could be said to be lacking in green space).

That said, I find it hard to consider SUVs as a form of culture!

It was only just recently that Finland stop severely punishing people for using alternative bio-fuels in their cars with such severe taxes, that it was not worth it to even try, even if someone had plenty of free methane bottled up in a tank. And it was only just last year, I believe, that they stopped punishing people with taxes for manufacturing and selling bio-diesel. The government of Finland is not interested in reducing emissions – it is interested in making sure nothing happens to its number one milk cow, the 300% fuel tax. Unfortunately, this milk cow is starting to get old and it probably won’t live much longer.

You wanna save energy with your PC? Get a Mac Mini. That you can leave on all the time with a pretty good conscience for e-mail, telephony, downloading and browsing. The Power PC based Mac Mini uses 20 watts of power. Just remember to turn your monitor off.

Your operating system can save you energy as well. Windows Vista needs to have at least 1 gig of RAM and about 2 GHz with dual core to run well. Ubuntu Linux can run well with half a gig and 1 GHz. A slower, older machine often uses less power.

“You wanna save energy with your PC?”

What if I have 4-SATA2 hard drives? 2GB of RAM and 2GHz (single core) though. I run Linux, which hardly ever uses swap memory, so no thrashing. Makes lots of noise due to the graphic card’s fan, so I always think it uses tons of power.

Fred Fry: “suggesting that people bike in winter Finland is a stupid idea. Yes people do it, but it is freaking dangerous.”

Well, you just need to change the “bi-” to “tri-” and everything will be OK…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkpwAGcuNtU

A nice velomobile with electric or gas assist would be awsome! You’ve probably seen this one…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orrOIoZKPgs

But, whereas the bike paths in the Hel/Van/Esp region are sufficient (aside from some rough transitions between street and path at intersections), the rest of the infrastructure isn’t so great.

For example, apartment buildings don’t have adjoining garage complexes. So there’s not enough space for storage of trikes or other alternative vehicles. It’s too bad, really.

Hell, buses aren’t even equipped for bikes. Finland must be the only country in Europe that doesn’t have a system which integrates public transit with bikes.

Maybe they never wanted people using alternative forms of transportation when fuel and auto taxes bring so much revenue by recycling everything people earn. That’s the low-budget, socialistic welfare state. It has to squeeze every penni; screw the environment.

So Punter, now that we’re kind of on topic, what did you think of the ABC debate on your golden boy’s documentary? You’ve been strangely silent.

Fred Fry : you’re right, you can’t use bikes everywhere anytime. But you can do a lot better, at least in Helsinki in summer. If you ride a bike 5km to work 6months/year instead of using your car, you’ll have free sauna for a year
And as JG pointed out, a very broad city isn’t the way to go if you want smart transports. But I don’t think the point here is to know how Finland could become more responsible, but only to know if saunas are bad compared to SUVs.

Well… on the other hand, stopping electric sauna would reduce the amount of nuclear waste (an other debate I never read about here )

Note : apparently it still isn’t clear to many people here : if you burn a tree and let it grow again, there will be no CO2 emission on a global scale. If you don’t touch a forest, it will not reduce (nor increase) the amount of CO2 (as trees don’t grow for ever : leaves fall down, rotten and produce green house gases). The only problem is if you cut down a forest and don’t let it grow again (like Brazil in order to produce “bio”-fuel)

What Finland should do is to get rid of oil-heating in houses and use the oil saved as traffic fuel. Not because it is a major issue (11% of total oil usage) but because it can be done so easy. Technology is here (wood pellets, ground source heat pumps etc.), whereas traffic biofuel technology is still immature. First do what can be done and what we are good at and let the other countries develop traffic biofuel tech into maturity, then import it. That’s comparative advantage in action.

Personally, I find the whole discussion amusing, especially the one about “electric stoves saving trees”. Finnish forests need saving as much as Finnish potatoes, both are in demand, but surprise, free market economics ensures that both will alsways be planted to meet supply and demand.

We should start using “häkäpönttö” powered cars. (Carbon Monoxide tank) They have a tank where there is wood burning in an oxygen starved environment, and the gases are bubbled through water so there are no explosions, and then the gases are fed into the engine. One stoking of wood will get you about 100 km.

@33 I am a little skeptical on the power consumption of your computer. If your graphic card needs a fan… Do you use hefty 3D programs in Linux? You could get a basic ATI or NVidia card for under 50 that works in all applications, even 3D.

I don’t expect Americans to get rid of their SUV’s. I expect car manufacturers to create more environment friendly cars. No generalizations please.

Why doesn’t Finland have gas heating? Gas is more environment friendly than fuel oil. Some of the gas powered heaters are 96% efficient. They are so efficient that the exhaust gas can be vented out a plastic pipe; the heat is so efficiently extracted. This kind of technology is used extensively in the USA, UK and Central Europe. It is used in the USA even where delivery is required, meaning rural places that have no pipes going to them.

Gas cooking, hot water and even gas powered cars. I’ve wondered the same thing. Plenty of gas next door too I think.

Gaz isn’t a renewable energy. It might be better than oil (about 10-20%), nothing extra-ordinary.

Sirkuspelle: “@33 If your graphic card needs a fan… Do you use hefty 3D programs in Linux? You could get a basic ATI or NVidia card for under 50 that works in all applications, even 3D.”

Yeah, my card is a GeForce 6600, which has dual DVI attachments so I can run side-by-side monitors. The only 3D is occasional Google Earth. I’m kind of hoping to eventually find a utility that regulates fan speed. That way I could get it running more quietly.

42, gas heating is is widely used in Finland, AFAIK it’s the most popular source of energy for district heating together with coal-fired combined heat and power at areas where there are gas pipes. And it’s quite popular where I live (outside of gas pipeline network) for large scale heating, such as factories & warehouses. Perhaps it’s considered dangerous for residential heating? And 44 is right, it’s only marginally better than oil.

“Helsinki’s annexation of south west Sipoo is another anti-environment move, as it encourages low density housing spread a long distance away from the core of the municipality.”

Wrong.

The population in the Capital Area used to spread to the west (Kirkkonummi, western Espoo), which is much further from downtown Hki than Sipoo is. In the forthcoming years many more people can live a shorter distance from the most densely populated areas of Helsinki.

Finnish politicians go around signing all kinds of treaties the tax payers have to pay in order to make us look like the most “progressive” nation. But no one gives a shit. What does it matter if Finland bans land mines or signs Kyoto agreement if Russia, China, USA etc don’t.

Wrong.

The population in the Capital Area used to spread to the west (Kirkkonummi, western Espoo), which is much further from downtown Hki than Sipoo is. In the forthcoming years many more people can live a shorter distance from the most densely populated areas of Helsinki.
How is it “wrong”? Things are not so black and white. The westernwards sprawl is equally regretable. It will hardly make things better by going with the logic of the west side if already messed up, so let’s do the same to the east. The difference is that Kirkkonummi is Kirkkonummi with its own municipal centre – of which residents in Kirkkonummi are near! The municipal services are all within easy reach as the municipal core is near-by.

There is no reason why Helsinki needs to annex neighbouring municipalities; they are quite capable of planning their areas for themselves. At the end of the day, I suspect that Helsinki rather wanted the tax-payers in south west Sipoo – who are rather afluent and will make a positive impact to the city’s finances.

“It will hardly make things better by going with the logic of the west side if already messed up, so let’s do the same to the east.”

Wow… Where to start…

Since Finland is no North Korea, and people can choose where they live, it makes sense to have the omakotitalot CLOSER to Helsinki rather than further away.

Do you get it?

Since Finland is no North Korea, and people can choose where they live, it makes sense to have the omakotitalot CLOSER to Helsinki rather than further away.
Of course people can choose! There’s no reason why they can’t choose to live in Sipoo. It doesn’t have to become Helsinki for that (as you’ve already pointed out with your example of Kirkkonummi!). There is a big difference between people choosing and Helsinki annexing part of another municipality against the will of over 92% of its inhabitants. Helsinki is not only ignoring the people’s will (so in that sense, there is actually a lack of democracy which could be compared to North Korea if someone felt like being particularly harsh, I personally wouldn’t) but also promoting non-green practices by encouraging houses to be built rather than more vertical structures nearer the centre.

Remember that the housing minister Jan Vapaavuori (Kokoomus) has said that Helsinki and the government should take the climate change seriously. He even said a while back (on Huomenta Suomi on MTV3) that because of this, housing should be more concentrated. Yet, that’s all just fine “feel good” words with this acton. As Helsinki will spread itself out towards Östersundom, the housing will be yet more spread out – certainly not more concentrated. Even now, without counting the annexed parts of Sipoo, Helsinki is a spread-out city. There’s 3 048,6 people per km2. For instance in Stockholm, it’s 4 124,91 per km2. Helsinki’s current land area (without southwest Sipoo) is 186,36 km2. So, that means that Helsinki can take a further 200 000 residents before it’s housing concentration reaches the same level as Stockholm. Why do I compare to Stockholm? Well, most of us have probably visited there at some point – Stockholm’s hardly short on parks and greenspaces! The conclusion: Helsinki has other motives in its forced annexation of south west Sipoo than the fact it’s run out of room.

Punter:
“Gas cooking, hot water and even gas powered cars. I’ve wondered the same thing. Plenty of gas next door too I think.”

My uncle converted his car to use gas in the late 1970′s/early 80′s. AFAIK, it only took minor changes to the carburetor. I suppose you can’t do that to an injection petrol engine. There were two large propane/butane mixture containers in the boot which had to be changed pretty often and he had a button in the console to inject a little petrol into the mix when starting. Otherwise it worked fine. Emission-wise it is probably a lot cleaner in terms of particles, sulphur and PAH compounds, especially as catalytic converters kept us waiting for them for another 10 years. In terms of CO2 it’s the same.

The problem with gas on a large scale is of course transportation and the infrastructure. Petrol is a liquid under normal conditions and a lot easier and less hazardous to move around.

Guess what? The Finnish government would have none of this soloing about and slapped a 20x diesel tax on his car, IIRC. His next one was a regular diesel.

“There’s no reason why they can’t choose to live in Sipoo. It doesn’t have to become Helsinki for that”

In Finland, we have this idiom “tynnyrissä kasvanut”… Surely you don’t want that one to apply to you?

Sipoo has done everything in their power to keep the county as sparsely populated as possible, so your argument has no wings. And you know that. You are merely thinking with your boobs instead of your brain. Tassarna bort från Sibbo (or something)!

Sipoo has shown over and over again that they will take no responsibility in developing the Capital Area. It’s the equivalent of rural Queens in NYC. Since nobody’s stealing anybody’s private property, there is absolutely nothing wrong in one part of Finnish society acquiring another part of Finnish society to improve things.

Espoo brawler, I don’t know why you think throwing insults somehow equals good debate. It just makes you sound as if you have nothing else to come with.

But anyhow, if you look at the population increase in Sipoo over the last decades you will see that many people have managed quite successfully to move to Sipoo without them needing Helsinki to be running it. They were doubtless amongst the 92+% who voted against the forced annexation plan. You will notice there are no walls at the border, you don’t require a special permit to move there. Nothing is stopping anyone and indeed many people have moved there (just as they have to your example of Kirkkonummi.)

In any case, Sipoo’s general plan calls for a massive expansion of the housing stock in the municipality over the coming two decades. But regardless of that, as I just said, Helsinki doesn’t need the land for housing. There’s room for 200 000 more already, so they could certainly find more than enough room for the 30 000! You could therefore quite easily argue that Sipoo’s own general plan is overboard.

This thread is principally about the environment – it would be better for that if Helsinki created new housing in its own territory where there are existing services.

What comes to cycling in the winter, I used to do it everyday to school for 12 years, and I am still alive. Most of the people in my school did too, and they are all alive too. Silly, maybe, but not that dangerous, if you know what you’re doing.

I keep my computer on all the time… plus I use the “make shift” sauna at the gym here. I’m stationed at an Air Force in Oklahoma… Double-trouble Finn killing the environment I am, I guess…

But to celebrate Finnish culture, the Dallas Finnish community and the Dallas Stars are hosting a Finnish night on February 5th, drinks, dinner, an NHL game and autographs with the Finns at a meet and greet.

Over here, anything that reminds me of home is amazing. Sauna, hockey or watching the Finns skate over the Americans… greatness.

When we moved to Oulu, “Jussi’s Bicycle Point” had a big “Opening of the cycling season” ad in a local newspaper. That was exactly 11 years ago and the temperature was -30 C. Locals may use studded tires, wear an ice-fishing overalls and furhat. Sometimes they do trip and the most important thing is to save your face despite of the fractured skull. Watch quickly that nobody saw you fall, wipe off the snow and go on.

…personally I prefer this method of transport to bicycle in the winter. It looks nice on the parking lot and you can take foreign visitor for a short ride around the technopolis. Unfortunately this is useful only just after the snowfall, when the city has not yet spread sand all over the walking paths.

While this was an interesting post, the argument that silly sauna-enjoying Finns contribute to global warming as much as the vilified Americans is disingenuous for two reasons:

(1) If you look at per capita CO2 emissions per capita, you will see that the discrepancy between the respective figures is huge.
http://belgrade-consultation.ewindows.eu.org/reports/rep285401/cap730168/sec316764/image004.gif

(2) Saunas could at least potentially run on zero-emissions electricity and they already run a much less CO2-intensive electricity supply than that of the US transport fleet. Which is >99.9% oil powered, with no alternative in sight for decades.

As many have already surely pointed out–considering the high standard of this blog–saunas warm up the dwelling, so the energy doesn’t go wasted. Transferring 3,5 tons (Hummer) instead of one ton (Nissan Note) is pure waste (unless you’re in Baghdad).

I kind of like this technology (http://discovermagazine.com/2006/apr/anything-oil). I hope they come over here soon and save Finland from its nutty energy policy.

Mara:
“I kind of like this technology (http://discovermagazine.com/2006/apr/anything-oil). I hope they come over here soon and save Finland from its nutty energy policy.”

Nice way to get rid of waste, but for solving energy problems it is pretty analogous to wind power. I see they’re still hopeful on solving the odour issue. I also appreciate your silent acceptance of government subsidies. Seems like the Free Market[tm] didn’t go all the way here.

Freeridin’ Franklin: “I also appreciate your silent acceptance of government subsidies. Seems like the Free Market[tm] didn’t go all the way here.”

Without subsidies, it would have been difficult to compete against the oil companies, which themselves received billions of dollars in subsidies during that timeperiod:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2007-01-18-house-oil_x.htm

You can’t call it a free market if certain competitors receive concentrated financial support from the government (via your tax money).

It perfectly illuminates the problem with founding economic strategy on government subsidies: the subsidies are rarely based on good intentions, as a half-century of oil subsidies have demonstrated.

Rather, subsidies are a way for politicians to grant favors and privilege to those who keep them in power. If ‘those’ happen to be rich oil industry people, then that’s where your money will go.

An even worse situation exists in Finland, due to the even larger share of government control. Naturally subsidies, in one form or another, are part of that control. That’s why we can’t expect any honest decisions to come from Parliament; most laws are made to protect someone’s power position—not necessarily to benefit the public.

We can plainly see that it’s one of the main causes of Finland’s low standard of living, dismal purchasing power, underfunded medical care… The list goes on.

#62 The problem of free markets in Finland is that it never got here. By endorsing a technology I do not endorse big government ideology.

This technology is scalable, so it could revive rural areas, and it would be applicable for competitive markets for both rural and urban areas.

But my bet is that the Finnish politbureau (kokoomus, center, and sos dem) will not get too exited about this technology because it would pose a threat to the municipal monopoly of energy production and Fortum. It would eat away from their very personal power. Greens are of course subject to the same fear of losing power, but they are also going to oppose this technology just as eagerly as they have opposed any private enterprise that utilizes garbage (by burning) on the grounds that it gives material consumption a moral approval. Greens would rather like to see everybody sweat and toil and generally go without.

The problem with ANY new and efficient energy technology in Finland is that the process will be curbed by big-government ideologs and practical interests of the politbureau, no matter what their official ideology. This state of affairs is very unfortunate, because at this day and age any efficient energy technology has to be technology fit for an information society, i.e. technology that lets the buyer-consumer keep control.

As long as Finish society functions with its current values and mores, we are not capable of utilizing any of such technologies, even if we are aware of them. We are doomed to be followers, however much the national strategy claims to “invest in knowledge and innovation”.

That’s why the best possible scenario for Finland is that the more western oriented cultures in Europe will adopt the technology first, making it harder for our politbureau to prevent its implementation. And even then I expect the politbureau to do its best to circumvent the patents or to socialize the profits by socializing the garbage. I’m pretty convinced that soon you find that you can not sell your garbage to just anybody, but you have to let it be transported to the municipally owned sites. So I put my hopes in Ireland, and the united powers of examples and exposes.

Nice rant, Mara. Too bad that your basic premise, namely that this technology is scalable, is incorrect. What would you expect the efficiency of converting turkey feed to turkey gut to be? I’m betting on 1%, tops.

For what it’s worth, last time I checked, Neste Oil was a leader, not a follower in biofuels. Too bad that chopping down the rainforests of Indonesia to make room for palm oil plantations doesn’t exactly rate as “green”.

#65 Technology is scalable when the minimum and maximum efficient sizes of operations are wide apart. Which is true for this technology.

This technology is not about converting turkey feed to turkey gut. It’s about converting turkey guts (and maybe turkey feed, if it is deemed as obsolete) into oil, minerals and water.

Yes, Neste is a leader in politbyro-controlled, inefficient, and non-sustainable technology. The fact that the said technology is officially labeled “green” doesn’t make it more efficient or consumer-controlled.

Mara, repeating it over and over again does not make it any more true. There’s a clue in the article to the astute observer: they do not have enough capacity to run their own refinery. You are clearly an intelligent person. Venture outside the confines of youir ideology and think for a moment. This is an excellent way to get rid of waste, but sadly won’t get but a little fraction of little Johnnies to the soccer practice in the back seat of the Escalade.

Again, Neste Oil’s “green” rainforest destruction has nothing to do with the politbyro. It’s all marketing.

Freriding, the company not having enough capacity is due to the facts that it is dealing with a new technology (with a learning curve in implementing it), and the company has made the strategic decision to keep the implementation knowledge under its own control instead of licencing the tech. Current production capacity of the company has nothing to do with the tech itself being scalable or not.

Neste Oil’s marketing success has a lot to do with politbyro setting the taxes & subsidies according to a highly political decision process, where it classifies Neste’s product “green”.

But my bet is that the Finnish politbureau (kokoomus, center, and sos dem) will not get too exited about this technology because it would pose a threat to the municipal monopoly of energy production and Fortum.

They wouldn’t be exited because there is a better, Finnish way to do it: google for etanolix. The way things are going Finland will have or actually already has two leading biofuel companies. The third is likely to make fuel from turf (if it’s not already making). The forest-related bioenergy industry is a world leader, too, or close to being one. Not bad for a politburo country.

Mara:
“This technology is not about converting turkey feed to turkey gut. It’s about converting turkey guts (and maybe turkey feed, if it is deemed as obsolete) into oil, minerals and water.”

Excuse me for considering the efficiency of the entire production chain. Looks like Americans will have Thanksgiving every day, with two turkeys for every family member. Although I sincerely doubt even that will get the Escalades very far.

#69: Yes, not bad for a politburo country. If I understand correctly, the economic concept is based on consumers paying SITA for taking the garbage. SITA is not paying for the right to get that garbage. Another limit is that the fermentation process can take only biofeed. But, have to admit, not bad for a politbyro country.

#70: Oh, now I see, you were suggesting that we stop eating turkey to get rid of turkey guts! That’s one way, I guess. Applying the logic, and since that tech can also convert hospital waste and non-recyclable parts of old computers into oil & minerals, would you suggest we stop utilizing hospital services and computers as the best way to handle the waste they produce ?

Mara:
“#70: Oh, now I see, you were suggesting that we stop eating turkey to get rid of turkey guts!”

Well, I was merely suggesting that you acquire a sense of proportion, but I guess it’s time to wayve the French white flag of surrender, as we say.

Freeriding: OK, let’s stop on this one. I’m sure we can have some enjoyable disagreements on other topics in the future.

Yes 300 million people driving to the mall every single day in a SUV is directly comparable to once a week electric sauna in a country of 5 million people. You are an idiot, but you could keep it a little less pronounced.
Also things that run on electricity are quite different from things that need oil in respects of adapting to greener energy models.

Noes! Can’t live without the saunas.

I’m not even a Finn, I’m just a dumb Yank
who is lucky enough to have Finnish friends.
And I have this to say to the article:
HELL NO, DON’T SCREW WITH FINNISH CULTURE!!

Who in Hell has the right to tell Finns what
to do with ANYTHING that is theirs!? NOBODY!!

If someone wants to live in Finland and fulfill
residency requirements, learn the Finnish language,
and *become a citizen* of Finland, all well and good.

If not, then mind your own business!

I know I have a very nasty attitude, and I’m sorry
for it. It’s embarassing for me when I lose my temper.
But it makes me really REALLY *REALLY* ANGRY and really
REALLY defensive that someone who isn’t even a native-born
Finn is going around preaching that “Finnish saunas are
equivalent to Yank SUVs” in their level of ‘evilness’
against the earth.

If you want to whine about damage to the Earth,
GO TO KARELIA and see what the Russians did to the
territory that once belonged to the Finnish people.

And lastly, for the life of me I cannot figure out
how you managed to shoehorn saunas into a Hesari
article on Finnish electricity consumption which
DIDN’T EVEN MENTION them, and which you so sneeringly
referred to with the words, “Finnish sauna culture
is no doubt partially to blame for this…”

this is well known info in Finland..although the way you put it (comparing them with those undeveloped countries! how dare you!?) is quite alarming (chuckle)

I dare anyone to have a shot at trying to remove sauna from this culture/country…

It would be very good nich market for alternative greener sauna options..(not wood no electrics)

I will shoch some Finns in my next party with this blasphemic comparison..

take care

Bit unfair on Finland, whats your research ctiteria?