Reason for assault said to be wealthiness
@ 7:52 pm When studying the public tax records of Finland, it has become clear to me that some pretty nasty things have been happening to people because of the tax records not only being public, but being in magazines, newspapers and nowadays, the Internet. Have a look in piratebay.org, right there where the pirate movie torrents are for “Veropörssi” if you don’t believe me.
I came across this little comment in a discussion in the Internet about the very recent news that publishing tax records may soon be forbidden altogether. Link to the discussion.
Reason for assault said to be wealthiness
I know of one long term hate relationship (ie. insults, minor physical assaults), where the perpetrator has said while being drunk that the reason was the victim’s being rich. The victim asked what was the information source but he was not told.
Social benefits and so on also public
Then this person goes on to say that last line. He or she wants even more public information, such as social benefits received, even after making a comment like that. But rest assured, publishing information which reveals social benefits received (not meaning farming subsidies) is quite explicitly illegal in the EU Personal Data directive, for the exact reasons we see above.
The Redskins football team just lost a player, because it was known in the black community that he was rich. So 2 thugs jumped into a car, drove to his house to rob it. He was there, and was killed.
Now 2 thugs go to jail for life.
Comment by winter “Yea, Proton Power, now in remission†— Sun, Jan 27th, 2008 @ 9:04 pm
Unfortunately we Finns still concretely live the “might makes right†-culture in many ways. We constantly face rights violations, and constantly make estimates of whether we will win anything by trying to correct the situation by demanding others to respect our violated rights.
Maybe this state of morals could be explained by our particularly unjust history, and our fairly recent (in cultural development sense) and traumatic civil war. Whatever the reason, the Finnish way to deal with traumas has been “practicalâ€Â: we have focused on increasing the material wellbeing and postponed discussing “less practical†matters to a distant future, when all parties immediately concerned will be dead, which supposedly makes the discussion less heated.
Instead, at every suitable occasion, we repeat the Finnish myths about an exceptionally honest, fair, and righteous nation. This material & myths -national strategy has allowed us to produce material wellbeing and simultaneously ignore the cultural mores our daily behavior reveals. As a byproduct, this strategy has succeeded to largely mystify social sciences (at least political science and economics) for the Finnish public.
Way back when I was growing up in Finland, I accepted a lot of that nation building mythical crap as self-evident truth. When you grow up in a strongly idealistic culture, you risk an identity crisis and ostrasion if you are too clearheaded. Only spending a long time abroad and trying to learn another country’s myths has helped me to be aware of the Finnish ones. That’s why I do not expect a regular Finn reading these posts to agree with me. It would be like expecting somebody to deny their identity.
Whatever our reasons for maintaining the “might makes rightâ€Â-culture, I view us Finns on a fast track towards wanting to give it up. At least the younger, educated middle class will be in value turmoil, and our sociologists will be busy in theme seminars on “Vierantuminen or syrjäytyminen?â€Â. The young career stars are not guided by our genetic and innate preference for the western democratic values, but prodded by their practical goal to increase their material wellbeing through international trade. I see us as a nation in a process or coming to grips with the idea that we need to develop and respect (and require eachother to respect), those social mores, which are needed for maximizing the beneficial social exchanges. Those social mores would include respecting concepts like human rights, property rights, due process, and privacy.
Only if we embrace those kind of values, will we develop as a trading nation and as an information society. For example we would became much better at marketing, more efficient at sourcing, and more innovative as web2 institutional developers. Maybe this practical, material goal is our best hope of developing the values fit for a western democracy.
For instance: if publishing a partner’s private data is not exactly promoting your business, you will make sure that your company learns to respect your partner’s privacy. If a person finds it increasingly easy to exchange his/her country of residence (for instance due to state promotion of privacy violations) and continue his/her life and career only slightly encumbered, the state will have to compete to keep its current residents. As our sports idols have shown, it is totally possible that a state will find it advantageous to show some respect towards its resident’s wishes. And the non-rush of foreign labor force that is not-queueing for the Finnish public sector jobs might induce some thoughts in the minds of the powers that be. Contemplating on this revelation might even be a motive strong enough to curb the unwanted activities of our dirty old MPs.
Comment by Mara — Mon, Jan 28th, 2008 @ 3:50 am
Thanks Mara. You are obviously a deep thinking person. Living in another country really blows all the myths of both cultures. It makes you more aware of how much that is accepted at face value is nonsenes.
There are a lot of people talking in the USA about doing away with the federal income tax and making a federal sales tax of about 17%. That would do away with tax bookkeeping, most of the IRS, tax records, audits, capital gains taxes, etc. Tax would be paid when buying goods. If this ever goes through, the government could monitor almost on a per minute basis how much money it has to work with. It would also make the USA have the most powerful economy of all the western economies once again. Now people in many states are just as tax encumbered as people in Finland. I probably pay less income tax than people in New York with equivalent salaries.
Unfortunately, a model like this would never work in Finland because the sales tax (VAT) is already maxed out. It can’t be taken any higher. However, many have suggested a flat income tax, and idea that has merit.
If “might makes right” maybe the might of the European Court of Justice will make this issue right - that the government sells and leaks personal taxation data to the press without giving any right to opt out, also even when a person has done a “turvakielto” to the magistrate, which expresses that the person feels like he or she could be in danger if the place where they live is revealed. That persons name, address and municipality should not be revealed. Fortunately, the European Commission, who are also involved now with the court case, due to the numerous complaints they have received, are also aware of this.
Comment by Sirkuspelle — Mon, Jan 28th, 2008 @ 8:42 am
“The Redskins football team just lost a player, because it was known in the black community that he was rich. ”
How could it be known? His tax records weren’t public.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Mon, Jan 28th, 2008 @ 9:16 am
“I probably pay less income tax than people in New York with equivalent salaries.”
That’s doubtful when you think about all the indirect taxes you pay in Finland, and the resulting high prices for goods and services - ouch!
It’s a world of difference so to speak.
“How could it be known? His tax records weren’t public.”
Hmmmmm, just guessing here… A player from the “black community”… Could it have been the solid gold dinner plate that hung from his neck? The rings on each finger? The sports cars? Armani suits? No tax record needed in that case, but the same effect anyway. Clearly he chose to display his wealth.
Unfortunately, wealthy (or even mere ordinary) Finns can’t present themselves modestly, even if they want to. Maybe that’s why so many move away.
Comment by Kristian — Mon, Jan 28th, 2008 @ 2:17 pm
If I pay more tax than other people then I make more of a contribution to society right? As a business owner I employ workers who obviously pay taxes and my company has to pay 5.8% of the total amount of salaries into the social security fund. I’m also responsible for the payment of pensions on my workers’ behalf and make a 20% contribution to their pension. Plus I insure my workers for accident and injury. I pay their salary if they are ill and so on. My tax rate hovers around the 40% mark and then I pay value added tax of either 22% or 17 on things that I purchase. Basically myself and my company are responsible for a lot of generated tax revenue. Now after all of that if I get someone being jealous over my earnings and making comments or is threatening, or even being overly-curious as to how much I actually earn I think I’m going to be a bit upset. I would think about relocating to Estonia which I’m kind of thinking about doing now.
The point about the publication of tax records in Finland is that it feeds the narrow-minded curiosity of those that aren’t really doing much or making much of a contribution to society.
Comment by Andy Campbell — Mon, Jan 28th, 2008 @ 3:24 pm
I’m not trying to prove anything by this but the only person I know who reads Veropörssi and such is a 50+ successful “leader”-type man who votes Kokoomus.
Comment by Pave — Mon, Jan 28th, 2008 @ 5:48 pm
@7 I know of a stalker type person who found the ex-partner he was harrassing using Veropörssi. There was a discussion about it in Finnish. A case like that could end up in the Human Rights court - someone suggested filing a case.
A lot of people read it. Think of all those who have downloaded it from Piratebay.org and other torrent trackers. There must be 15-20 people I know of right here at my workplace who have downloaded it. I don’t know what my current salary is exactly, but when I asked a workmate, he was able to tell me exactly. WTF! (Welcome To Finland)
Andy, you could set up your headquarters in Estonia and take up residence there yourself. Some of your workers may want to go too, some may not. You may want to hire more workers there. No worries either way. When your company is based there, you pay a flat tax, I think 17%, and you make your own tax residence there. The government keeps your financial information private, as to be expected in any normal, modern society. Estonia is not without its own problems however. If I was an owner of a busness, I would be considering something like this as well. Skype has a large office in Estonia. You can also apply for a “turvakielto” from the Finnish magistrate (Maistraatti), but I have seen people end up with their name, income and municipality in Veropörssi. So it is a roll of the dice whether that accomplishes anything or not.
Comment by Sirkuspelle — Mon, Jan 28th, 2008 @ 6:17 pm
That is quite peculiar, because I for one would want to be recognized rich.
After all the recent statistics reveal the more likely you are to be assaulted if you are piss-poor and living in the bad part of town.
can’t deny the logic in thet can you now?
Comment by Hank W. — Mon, Jan 28th, 2008 @ 6:21 pm
Andy (@6) , I kind of think that we are on a road to ruin if we start making the automatic assumption that those earning more and thus paying more taxes are making “a bigger contribution to society” and that those earning less and thus providing less for the state in taxes “are not making much of a contribution to society”. This kind of thinking, equating “contribution to society” as cold cash, though natural from a certain point of view, is unnecessarily simplistic.
What about, say, teachers, nurses and law enforcement who keep up necessary functions of society with a low salary? What about people working for free for different voluntary organisations? Mothers or fathers staying at home, raising future tax payers? What about the guy helping an old lady to carry her luggage or holding the elevator for you?
“Making a contribution to society” is a really difficult concept, one that should not be seen only in market terms.
Comment by Drakon — Mon, Jan 28th, 2008 @ 7:09 pm
@10 Absolutely teachers and nurses and others make a massive contribution to society. We all make contributions one way or another. But it seems that there is a ‘culture of jealousy’ here - a kind of reverse snobbery. Lets be fair about this. It’s not sinful to be wealthy and one shouldn’t be targeted for being well off. Making tax records public is one thing, but then what people do what that information is not regulated at all. So lets not have tax records become public - it’s divisive.
Comment by Andy Campbell — Mon, Jan 28th, 2008 @ 8:20 pm
@8 Sirkuspelle - we are researching the legality of a move to Estonia. It’s not just me but my Finnish partner is interested in this and also the head of another company we work with. We’ll see what happens. I would prefer in the long run to stay here in Finland however we need to remain competitive and making tax savings is one way to do it. We would still be making contributions to the Finnish tax office because most of our workers would remain employed here in Finland. But there are definitely savings to be made if based in Estonia. We’ll see.
Comment by Andy Campbell — Mon, Jan 28th, 2008 @ 8:25 pm
@12 It is not illegal at all to move to Estonia or base your business there. If you are a resident there, however, there is a limit to the number of days you can be in Finland. I think it is under 6 months of the calendar year. Personally, I have been looking for a another location to work as well. It’s not so simple just to pack up the whole family and leave, though. I have paid 10 years into the retirement plan. I have to find out what happens to that.
Andy, perhaps we could talk. Would you e-mail me? showmaster-at-verosirkus-dot-com I sounds like we have some serious news if business owners are considering leaving Finland because of this privacy issue. Now it gets to the bottom line for the government: Is it worth it? I know they make some money selling personal tax data to the newspapers, but when businesses start leaving because of it, it starts to rapidly being not worth it any longer.
Comment by Sirkuspelle — Mon, Jan 28th, 2008 @ 9:06 pm
Sirkuspelle - I’ll shoot you an email. The publication of tax records in Finland is just one more thing I don’t really want to deal with. The more I think about it the more distasteful I find it. The move to Estonia would be more about saving money than protecting privacy - but it’s a cumulative thing and I don’t feel comfortable paying high taxes and being ‘targeted’ perhaps. Well see. With YEL or TyEL payments your pension will be 60% of the last 10 years salary? So the retirement plan and how much has been paid only concerns the last 10 years of your working life right? Have I understood this correctly? Also In Estonia there is a flat rate of income tax - something like 24% regardless of how high your salary is right? Correct me on this one if I’m wrong.
Comment by Andy Campbell — Mon, Jan 28th, 2008 @ 9:21 pm
Andy Campbell:
“Basically myself and my company are responsible for a lot of generated tax revenue.”
As a business owner myself, I find it comical how some entrepreneurs think that they create jobs from scratch. Apart from the rare occasion where an entirely new business area is created, the employees would most probably be working for someone else. Now, providing competition is of course essential to a healthy market - the more, the merrier.
“The publication of tax records in Finland is just one more thing I don’t really want to deal with.”
Is Finnish nationalism another? And you want to escape that to Estonia?
:lol: 
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Tue, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 12:45 am
Freeridin’ Franklin - “As a business owner myself, I find it comical”
Is it the same Freeridin’ Franklin that became an entrepreneur a few months ago, in October?
Comment by Anonymous — Tue, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 1:02 am
“Is it the same Freeridin’ Franklin that became an entrepreneur a few months ago, in October?”
No, but I became one last year anyway. However, one does not need to be an entrepreneur to understand economic fundamentals. Our company, for instance, does not create jobs from scratch. For the most part, we hire people who already have a job. We do contribute to the tax base by paying them more than their stingy former employers.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Tue, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 7:34 am
@16 Freeridin Franklin:
Entrepreneurs do create jobs. If there are no entrepreneuers, there are no emerging businesses. If there are no emerging businesses, there are no jobs. Finland has a problem with people not wanting to be entrepreneurs. The business climate here in the 1960’s led to tens of thousands of people leaving the country because there were no jobs or the pay was pathetic. Sweden got about half a million more people this way. Australia got about 10 thousand. Canada got some immigrants as well.
Especially nowadays, if there were entrepreneurs, there is the whole EU as the market area. There are possibilities to make money when one doesn’t only look at what is happening inside the borders of this country. But entrepreneurs are disadvantaged in a way that the government puts them in the spotlight and reveals the business secrets (income) often before the business has a chance to really get going with the public/published tax records.
Comment by Sirkuspelle — Tue, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 7:59 am
“I find it comical how some entrepreneurs think that they create jobs from scratch”
It’s not only about whether an entrepreneur creates jobs that might not otherwise exist. It’s also about his ability to utilize his own capital resources in a manner that creates value for himself and society. For example, if an investor/builder botches a giant skyscraper project by mismanaging his money, overpaying subs, or he doesn’t build to specs and needs to redo things, then he’s failed to create that value.
Sure, he worked hard (we assume) and all his money was redistributed into the economy. But the effort didn’t produce the expected skyscraper. His blunder will then further effect the economy (e.g. other business won’t get their office space as they planned and more money will need to be found to fix the mess). Again, no value created, just money redistributed.
In the same way, Finland is also a country that works hard and redistributes lots of money. But its efforts don’t produce very much value for society, as evidenced by the low standard of living, sparse medical care, etc.
Unlike the above investor, Finland’s problem isn’t professional incompetence. Rather, it’s having a system that doesn’t permit the efficient use and retention of capital and talent within the country. Simply stated, people who have both, money and talent, leave. Having a Stasi-style tax record system is just one more reason for them to pack their suitcases.
Comment by Kristian — Tue, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 8:36 am
@12 and 13; just can’t wait for you two - I am expecting such elaborate posts over the “paradise” down south.
Just wonder what bad the Estonians have done to deserve you.
Comment by Hank W. — Tue, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 11:49 am
@15 You never know - maybe at the first kaitseliit rally they convince him to sign up.
Comment by Hank W. — Tue, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 12:00 pm
This blog is getting better by the week. Very well-informed posts.
For example, I wonder why Finland has more established firms than about any other country in the world if everybody is leaving.
The problem is that somebody might actually take these krisitians seriously, which again would harm the economy unnecessarily.
That’s the reason why I really hope that these folks would really move to Estonia and start badmouthing irrational rants about its economy.
Comment by Anonymous — Tue, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 12:09 pm
@13: I sounds like we have some serious news if business owners are considering leaving Finland because of this privacy issue.
And you think someone would care them leave? Heck, they’ll pay you the ticket. Who wants to listen to the whining from people only thinking of their own bellybutton who are ever only leeching the country dry and then leaving? So long and thanks for all the fish?
Oh, and that 10 years of pension contributions you paid. You paid it and its been used to pay the current pensions. You might get something like 2 euros then when you are 63-68 whenever you get on pension. It is designed for people building the society. First you give, then you get. People leaving the society without building it don’t get. But I know, in capitalism you only take take take.
When you get to some village in Estonia, find a beggar and ask how they are enjoying capitalism.
Comment by Hank W. — Tue, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 12:30 pm
The business climate here in the 1960’s led to tens of thousands of people leaving
That’s an extremely revisionist take on things. Don’t forget that Finland was hit hard during the wars, lost a lot of quite economically active territory, had to deal with a lot of displaced persons etc. Furthermore, before the war we were still a very much more agricultural society still. Sweden stayed out of the war and thus was essentially unscathed. Despite this, Sweden still took advantage of the Marshall Plan. We did not due to fears of how the USSR would interpret such a move.
Having a Stasi-style tax record system is just one more reason for them to pack their suitcases.
Surely a Stasi-like system would be that which keeps all state information secret without free access to the citizens? Using such an analogy would lead me to think that we have the very opposite of a Stasi-like system. Surely an open government is hardly what existed in DDR.
Comment by JG — Tue, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 12:31 pm
Hmm, well Finland has been considering whether or not to introduce a flat rate of tax for sometime. It won’t be introduced anytime soon if ever for reasons to do with wanting to maintain the social security system. A lot of tax money is spent on schools for example.
Well I’m not sure we will move to Estonia, but anyway I know a few Finnish companies and Finnish people thinking about making the move.
I don’t really read much into Hank’s rants. But there may be a general prevailing attitude in Finland that goes against the entrepreneur or views the entrepreneur with suspicion.
For people like Hank the best I can be, as an immigrant to Finnish society, is a a silent worker - not complaining and not earning too much. I’ll learn the language and become fluent and get a cleaning or warehouse job and sit quietly in my small one-bedroomed apartment not complaining - just nursing my pizza and 6 pack of Karhu. The company I work for will pay my pension and taxes and when I retire I’ll just keep myself to myself until I die and no one will come to my funeral - not even Hank. So what’s it to be? Is this what us immigrants should do with their lives? Nope. What we should do is earn sickening amounts of money and pay sickening amounts of taxes and listen to the sickening comments of people jealous about our ’success’. One’s right to complain should be commensurate with one’s contribution to the society that is the subject of the complaint. The more taxes I pay the more I feel I have a right to complain.
Comment by Andy Campbell — Tue, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 1:38 pm
The tendency to transfer parts of a business to a poorer country–as well as people moving to the opposite direction–has been going on for ever. A few decades a go it took place between Sweden and Finland, now between Estonia and Finland.
Estonia’s problem is, that now when the benefits of doing low-skilled labor there isn’t obvious anymore, their strategy for future isn’t clear. Their main livelihood, tourism, is bound to go downhill as well now that their prices are getting closer to those in the rich countries.
When Finland was in the same position in the 60s and 70s it started building a welfare state with a strong emphasis on education. Surprisingly soon Finland was one of the strongest economies in the world growth wise.
Estonia’s will to follow that path isn’t as strong as it was in Finland, but I haven’t been able to figure out what the alternative plan is. I’m afraid there is no consensus on that.
Then again Estonia’s success in the PISA study was absolutely amazing. Either they’ve done something wrong with the study or they’re still, even after all that emigration, a brilliant bunch of people. Compare to Latvia or Lithuania.
By the way, Finland is traditionally a strongly entrepreneurial society, although short-lived firms that are less common here than in those countries that have weaker safety nets, like Senegal or the USA.
It wouldn’t hurt this blog if people had some sort of an idea about the things they write, I think.
Comment by Anonymous — Tue, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 1:47 pm
@26 Estonia has a ’social’ tax which an employer has to pay on behalf of their employee. The rate of this taxation is 33% of the workers gross salary. This 33% includes pension insurance and so on and is basically identical to what Finnish companies pay. However in Finland the rate of this ’social tax’ (in Finland it’s not a tax as such) is about 28% or there abouts.
So Estonia is building a welfare safety net and is using the ’social tax’ to do it. schools in Estonia are being funded.
The way that it attracts businesses and wealthy individuals is that there is no company tax - so no tax on profits that are not used (compare this with 26% in Finland).Also there are no penalties for transferring profits overseas. Also income tax is fixed at yearly decreasing amounts until it reaches 19% in 2009 (? I think this is correct). So in Estonia tax is being paid.
The benefits to me and my company would be something like this - I would save about 10-15% of my income compared with what I pay out in Finland - so I would have 10-15% more money. My company would save something like 25-30% of it’s income by moving to Estonia. There are are obviously risks i.e currency fluctuations and changes in government policy. Plus opposition to foreign owned firms etc. And I don’t really want to be resident in Estonia. So I’m really not sure we will make a move. In fact I think it’s unlikely really that we will move. However if things become uncomfortable here then the move will go ahead.
I disagree that Finland is a highly entrepreneurial society. Perhaps in the eighties it was, but not now.
Comment by Andy Campbell — Tue, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 2:13 pm
27:
The problem I described in 26 isn’t my invention. Quite a few Estonians seem to think that they are heading towards big problems because of the reasons above (salaries rising too fast compared to the skills of the labor force, prices going up even faster which is a bad thing for tourism, their main business, and brain drain). The “western” solution is to invest heavily on education and R&D and thus force the economy to take another, more productive path and in order to keep the talented in the country. But that’s hard in a country whose total tax revenue (of a relatively small GDP) is AFAIK around 30% (Finland, their main competitor in the future, has 43% at the moment). Some time ago I tried to find out if they had plans on rising the tax rate but apparently not. So, I don’t know what’s their plan or consensus–if any. Surely they are not planning to lower their wages in order to become competitive again …
As to Finland being entrepreneurial society, the overall number of firms is sixth in Europe, the number of established (three years old or more) firms is one of the highest in the world. But it’s true that after the great depression in the 90s the number of new firms has been going down. That alone is not a problem, but it is, that the number of growth firms has been lately below the American level (which is some sort of a positive standard in this particular issue).
Even these figures tell that the attitude toward entrepreneurs can’t be particularly hostile, and surveys confirm it: the relative number of people having a positive attitude toward entrepreneurs is the highest in Finland among all EU countries.
In Finland we have this thing called “lähdekritiikki”. In English it means: don’t believe what you’re told before you double check it. Strange myths about the Finnish economy in the folk lore ….
Comment by Anonymous — Tue, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 3:09 pm
Andy Campbell: “I disagree that Finland is a highly entrepreneurial society. Perhaps in the eighties it was, but not now.”
Well, if you include farmers who receive lots of subsidies, small forestry and fishing enterprises (who also receive subsidies), freelancers who build summer cabins for unreported cash and collect welfare during the winter mounths, etc., then Finland looks surprisingly entrepreneurial.
But insofar as dynamic entrepreneurism in the modern sense goes, the picture doesn’t look so bright. As Hank W. illustrated above, entrepreneurs are people who shouldn’t be trusted because they are mainly “leeching the country dry and then leaving.” Nevermind the value they created while in Finland.
So anything you accumulated in terms of savings or pensions, just leave those at the gate before you board the plane. After all, “it is designed for people building the society.” Not those who only built society for some specific amount of time.
The only fair outcome is the one which matches local expectations: like you said, you quietly retire to a one-bedroom flat and eat your pizza without complaining. But don’t get any funny ideas, because the Stasi-system will reveal whether you can legitimately afford those extra toppings.
Comment by Kristian — Tue, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 3:17 pm
@28 Some time ago I tried to find out if they had plans on rising the tax rate but apparently not.
Actually what I have been reading they have been lowering the taxes and plan to do so.
Estonia has gone through what Finland went through in the 1960-1970, the “escape from the countryside”. You see it when you drive through the villages. The prices are going up while the pensions are not. And all the young people leave to Tallinn or abroad, the uneducated mainly expect the “golden pavements” but the “edge” of working abroad is loosing. The money you make doesn’t stretch that far back home as it used to.
Comment by Hank W. — Tue, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 3:52 pm
Beautifully put Kristian.
Comment by Punter — Tue, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 3:54 pm
@29 sit quietly in my small one-bedroomed apartment not complaining - just nursing my pizza and 6 pack of Karhu. The company I work for will pay my pension and taxes and when I retire I’ll just keep myself to myself until I die and no one will come to my funeral - not even Hank. So what’s it to be? Is this what us immigrants should do with their lives?
Well that is what Finns do with their lives. Why should you be something different? Are you better than us? Well, some people think they are, its a free country.
What we should do is earn sickening amounts of money and pay sickening amounts of taxes and listen to the sickening comments of people jealous about our ’success’.
If ripping off the society is what you want to do, then the balance is achieved by the society ripping you back. Hence the taxes - to create equality.
One’s right to complain should be commensurate with one’s contribution to the society that is the subject of the complaint.
You are not contributing to the society, you are looking how you can benefit from the society and make yourself rich. Hence, you are a “societal parasite”… didn’t you read your Karl Marx? The Nordic Welfare State is based on old skool social democracy
Comment by Hank W. — Tue, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 4:04 pm
@29 dynamic entrepreneurism in the modern sense goes
In other words - ripping people off to make a quick buck?
Comment by Hank W. — Tue, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 4:05 pm
@26 Then again Estonia’s success in the PISA study was absolutely amazing. Either they’ve done something wrong with the study or they’re still, even after all that emigration, a brilliant bunch of people. Compare to Latvia or Lithuania.
Maybe its got to do with the education & national language requirements???
Another thing are the incentives… the cane= only education gets you somewhere as there are no more “lifetime jobs”. The carrot= if you are top of your class, you get a stipend for your tuition in the university. Otherwise you pay a lot (considering the average income levels).
Comment by Hank W. — Tue, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 4:10 pm
@ Hank. So I’m a social parasite now? Isn’t this just your general viewpoint about immigrants and other foreigners in Finland? Can I really be a social parasite when I’ve never claimed money from the KELA and I’ve paid all my taxes?
@ 28 Hank’s view of the entrepreneur is not exactly unusual in Finland. Checking facts about the economy and then experiencing the everyday reality of running a company, as I do, are very different. In this case it is difficult to know who is speaking without double checking the facts as they see them first.
Comment by Andy Campbell — Tue, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 5:32 pm
No Andy, you need a lesson in READING COMPREHENSION.
1. READ what I wrote.
2. READ what Karl Marx wrote.
3. READ what Social Democracy is.
4. READ what Nordic Welfare State is based on.
6. COMPREHEND what all this means regarding taxation.
5. UNDERSTAND why anyone wanting to “become rich” thus are a “social parasite” from the viewpoint of the Welfare State ideology.
Easy as that. Try to grasp some basic concepts there. They might help if you imagine trying to make a convincing argument.
Comment by Hank W. — Tue, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 6:19 pm
@26 Here is a chart of statistics:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_new_bus_reg_num_percap-businesses-registered-number-per-capita
Finland is behind a lot of the EU. Denmark has nearly twice the amount of new businesses registered per capita.
I know how I feel - I am not starting or registering a business in this country as long as stuff like Veropörssi, Verokone, and so forth are going on. I had a very successful summer business in the mid 90’s, but the tax record circus was not happening then.
Comment by Sirkuspelle — Tue, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 6:22 pm
O.k so now it becomes clear.
Comment by Andy Campbell — Tue, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 6:24 pm
@36 Wanting to become rich is the problem right? So when my tax records are published for 2007 I’ll be regarded as a parasite. That’s comforting to know. Now I see even more how wealthy individuals might be targetted and I want to stay here in Finland? I feel like giving up. Heading down the KELA tomorrow.
Comment by Andy Campbell — Tue, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 6:29 pm
Whatever Hank thinks, the modern EU entrepreneur thinks beyond the borders of his or her country. And it is not about getting rich by ripping off the poor. It is about getting rich by selling a good service or product to a large market of people. Finland’s old fashioned Nordic ideas that the rich are social parasites is grossly misdirected.
See when you have many people in a society who believe the rich are social parasites, then having public tax records is indeed truly an evil thing that comes from purely evil intentions: To single out the people who many feel are social parasites. I ask for what purpose. Then I realize this very blog article partly answers that. For hammering the nails that stick out. Jante Law.
Comment by Yrjö-Kyösti Pörhölä — Tue, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 6:32 pm
@37 Denmark has nearly twice the amount of new businesses registered per capita.
And where is the amount of old ones going out of business? I think the amount of successfully operating businessess and their turnover is more of a key factor. Otherwise all the 5 million people could start a business selling soap to each other and be benkrupt the next day - but in these figures that would be outstanding with new businesses per capita?
Comment by Hank W. — Tue, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 6:32 pm
See when you have many people in a society who believe the rich are social parasites, then having public tax records is indeed truly an evil thing that comes from purely evil intentions: To single out the people who many feel are social parasites. I ask for what purpose. Then I realize this very blog article partly answers that. For hammering the nails that stick out. Jante Law.
Should I say here “You hit the nail on the head.” That is exactly why the society is how it is. But these stupid foreigners need to be whacked a few times in the head before they get a clue of what the “realities of life” are.
*Before* the Nordic Welfare State is scrapped for good, there is not much idea in whining over separate phenomena. And as long as the society as a democratic whole feels more inclined to keep the Welfare State than give up for the option, so long the society will try and keep its poppies culled and nails hammered down. The recession of the 1990’s was one turning point it could have been done, however it wasn’t. Speaks more of the power of the society than one individuals’ wishes.
Smell the colitas - SDP 24%, Centre 23%, Left Alliance, 8%, Greens 8%… what exactly will make the Nordic Welfare State scrap itself? Whining?
Comment by Hank W. — Tue, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 6:39 pm
@ Hank. So I’ll be waiting to get ‘whacked a few times in the head’. I’ve got my KELA card so I’ll be o.k.
Comment by Andy Campbell — Tue, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 6:48 pm
@42 Hank, why did you leave out Kokoomus (National Coalition) who are more or less in power now?
Comment by Sirkuspelle — Tue, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 7:00 pm
Well the tax office doesn’t whack you in the head, it takes a bite out.
But you’re right, KELA card will give a replacement…
http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7009845892
(Don’t you just wonder *where* all those tax monies go to? Not into hospital food.)
Comment by Hank W. — Tue, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 7:00 pm
@44 Well, that is the definite opposition - they National Coalition might be the only party remotely toying with the scrapping of the welfare state.
Oh SFP and Christian Democrats I did forget from the “definite opposition”.
Comment by Hank W. — Tue, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 7:03 pm
@45 You were talking about Finnish people regarding me as a parasite. The tax office don’t think I’m a parasite.
Comment by Andy Campbell — Tue, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 7:07 pm
I wonder why the Federation of Finnish Enterprises claims that Finns have a positive attitude toward entrepreneurs! After all the real experts here have already proven that this is can’t be true.
Suomen yrittäjät
http://www.yrittajat.fi/sy/home.nsf/www/yrittajyyskasvatus
“Suomalaiset suhtautuvat myönteisesti yrittäjyyteen, mutta yrityksen perustamisen kynnys on korkea.”
Here are some results from an EVA survey:
Hyvinvointivaltion säilyttämisen/vahvistamisen kannatus: 84%
Hyvinvoinnin ja vientikilpailukyvyn riippuvuuden näkeminen: 81%
Yrittämismyönteisyys, tuki yrittäjyydelle 80%
WHy do the entrepreneurs publish such lies? Don’ they see how counterproductive it is to claim anything else than that the Finns think that entrepreneurs are parasites?
Just kidding. I know that when your ideology is strong enough facts mean nothing. Forget that Finns have more established firms than about anybody else in the world, hell, forget anything I said. Be happy! Lear more mythology! Ask the real experts!
Comment by Anonymous — Tue, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 7:59 pm
@48 tell that to Hank W - he’s an expert on everything Finnish and it was Hank. W that said Finnish people regard wealthy people as parasites. Good that you posted information that contradicts what he says. Thank you.
Comment by Andy Campbell — Tue, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 8:38 pm
I think there is a *slight* difference between the concept of “yrittäjyys” and “being wealthy”, or “becoming rich”.
For example if I would start a business, “being rich” would not be on the list of things of “why become an enterpreneur”. That is an absurd idea to start with. Becoming rich with the work of your own hands, maybe yes if the richness is counted in something else than money.
Most “wealthy people” are not “enterpreneurs”…
Comment by Hank W. — Tue, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 8:49 pm
@48 What do you mean “more established firms than anybody else in the world”. Someone else said that, and I don’t quite understand where that is ocming from. You mean like Nokia, Stora Enso and big firms like that?
Microsoft is what some would call an “established” firm, but how positive an effect it is having on the computer operating system and software industry is another question altogether. Giant, global businesses aren’t always clear in their motives. Microsoft eats small, innovative companies for lunch.
I wonder why “yrittämismyöntiesyys” is 80%. Shouldn’t that be 100%? Why would 20% be against entrepreneurship? If you think about it, 20% is a lot of people.
The threshold is high for starting a business, you say. This is the part that I am interested in. That has been even higher in the recent past. At one time, there were regular articles in the newspapers about how entrepreneurship is low all in the Nordic countries. It is interesting, because in the past, the people here have had the reputation of being hard working. And there’s not a whole lot to do in the winter, besides work.
Comment by Yrjö-Kyösti Pörhölä — Tue, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 9:00 pm
I think the difference is the concept between a craftsman doing his “own work” vs. a factory-owner having 100 craftsmen slaving for him.
These “Dynamic EU-entrepeneurs, these rootless parasites, want to own Finnish craftsmen as their slaves. Finnish craftsmen would want to be “their own men” but the threshold is high.
Comment by Hank W. — Tue, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 9:04 pm
UNDERSTAND why anyone wanting to “become rich†thus are a “social parasite†from the viewpoint of the Welfare State ideology.
Absolute nonsense. Business owners are not considered as parasites by the vast majority of the people, unless you are only associating with the Left Alliance or SKP/FKP all the hours in the day.
The welfare state is the safety net that ensures the poor/unfortunate/weak etc are supported and ensures people get support when they need it (parental leave etc). It needs rich people to pay taxes for it to work!
Comment by JG — Tue, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 9:09 pm
So can we conclude that whilst being an entrepreneur is acceptable to most Finns, being wealthy is less so? If this is the case then what’s the real reason for someone to become an entrepreneur? Hank would like us to go back to an agrarian society I think.
If my salary was 120.000 euros per year I would pay about 50.000 euros in tax. My company would pay nearly 30.000 euros in pensions and social security payments. Plus I would be spending money in Finland and paying ALV. So is this a bad thing? Well according to some it means I would be a parasite.
Well I’m just a stupid foreigner who needs to be whacked a few times in the head (according to Hank). I’ll try to keep a low profile. Hopefully nothing will happen when my tax records get published.
Comment by Andy Campbell — Tue, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 9:31 pm
So is this a bad thing? Well according to some it means I would be a parasite.
According to most, no. Don’t let the loud mouths in Suomalaisuuden liito and related groups get to you. They are very good at monopolising internet discussion boards (go to Suomi24 on any day and have a look), but in reality it just shows how a very small minority with a computer can make a very loud noise.
From this Finn’s point of view, keep making lots of money and paying your taxes. It’s helping the society not draining it. I think most would share that opinion.
Comment by JG — Tue, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 9:54 pm
I don’t know if there are any reliable way to determine whether the Finns like the rich or not. One way, of course, is to compare how often a fine car get scratched in Finland compared to other countries. In Finland, in fact, the reaction is more like “hey, nice car you’ve got there” than envy. That’s not how things are in many other countries.
I think Finns are perhaps even too little envious, because a little envy gets some positive things rolling. Or can get. Often also not.
Another thing, that often gets unnecessarily mixed up with envy, is the fact that showing off with riches is considered bad taste in Finland.
One more thing is that certain people use “Finns are envious” as propaganda for political purposes. “I don’ think it’s right that the rich don’t have to pay inheritance tax.” “You’re just envious”, replies a Kokoomus politician. Don’t buy it.
“Established firm” was an unsuccessful attempt to translate the term “vakiintunut yritys” which means simply a firem that has managed to get through the couple of first years.
Comment by Anonymous — Tue, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 10:10 pm
@55 and 56 - Nice posts thanks. I agree that these blogs and forums can be monopolized. It’s good to hear a range of views and of course I’m aware that Hank’s views on this topic are a little extreme. It’s reassuring to think that a majority of Finns would not share his views on this matter.
Comment by Andy Campbell — Tue, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 10:16 pm
Can’t give you stupid foreigners and your sycophants the monopoly of idiotic rants now can we
Comment by Hank W. — Tue, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 10:31 pm
@56 “Established firm†was an unsuccessful attempt to translate the term “vakiintunut yritys†which means simply a firem that has managed to get through the couple of first years.
OK, so that makes a wholde difference in how to read the statistics.
Comment by Hank W. — Tue, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 10:35 pm
@ 58 We don’t have sycophants here.
Comment by Andy Campbell — Tue, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 10:35 pm
Come on Hank. Answer #28. Glory days of The USSR is it?
Comment by Punter — Tue, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 10:39 pm
@59 I suppose that if a business can indeed get past the first couple of years in Finland, then it can succeed just about anywhere.
Comment by Yrjö-Kyösti Pörhölä — Tue, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 10:47 pm
@58 Watch it, this is quickly deteriorating into flame war kind of language Hank W.
Comment by Yrjö-Kyösti Pörhölä — Tue, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 10:50 pm
@61 Have to give a balanced view to your capitalist rhetoric.
Comment by Hank W. — Tue, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 10:50 pm
@9 Hank W “That is quite peculiar, because I for one would want to be recognized rich.”
Slightly contradicting. I thought your were all for hammering down the nails, the parasites of society.
Comment by Yrjö-Kyösti Pörhölä — Tue, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 10:53 pm
@56 - So there Andy we come to the point. *WHY* should you thus hide how much taxes you pay? After all - you *ARE* a tax-paying member of the society?
Or, if you have something to hide - the social parasites always have something to hide… the capitalist leeches off the working mans’ skin etc.
Understand now the “why tax records are public?”
You should be a “proud Finn” to be able to flaunt this. Instead of some “dodgy foreign ‘bjisnjisman’”quick making a buck off the stupid natives.
Comment by Hank W. — Tue, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 10:55 pm
@65 Don’t enter a discussion where your brain capacity is not enough.
It is statistics - the man in Jakomäki dies 20 years younger than the man in Westend.
So I’d rather be recognized I pay taxes, than have zero income. Poor people have such a wretched life.
Comment by Hank W. — Tue, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 10:59 pm
@63 Why don’t you change your handle to “Georges-Georges George” you old antifinitic
Comment by Hank W. — Tue, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 11:10 pm
@66 Hank you seem to be unraveling. My taxes were quite low for 2006. However our business has done very well in 2007. So you’ll be able to see how much tax I’ve paid in 2007 if the publication of tax records continues.
The comments you make are typical comments made on the internet. In reality things are very different. I don’t consider myself particularly avaricious.
Comment by Andy Campbell — Wed, Jan 30th, 2008 @ 12:50 am
“It is interesting, because in the past, the people here have had the reputation of being hard working. And there’s not a whole lot to do in the winter, besides work.”
Maybe it was just where I worked, but getting *anything* done in Finland in the workplace takes fucking forever if you have to depend on others as half of the time people are either out sick, on holiday, taking care of the kids, working from home or just gone for weeks on end as in the summertime. Tech support is a complete joke when it comes to ‘enterprise’ levels and…I could rant for days on how ‘hardworking’ means something completely different in Finland as opposed to the US. If I had a labour intensive business, one of the last places I’d look for a labour force would be Finland.
Comment by hfb — Wed, Jan 30th, 2008 @ 2:44 am
Kristian:
“Having a Stasi-style tax record system is just one more reason for them to pack their suitcases.”
Well, I could share a little personal experience. My suitcase was already packed when I was searching for work in London in the financial sector. As it turned out, I ended up starting a business in Finland instead. Public tax records were instrumental in spelling out how profitable my field was and exactly how much I was getting ripped off by my employer.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Wed, Jan 30th, 2008 @ 8:15 am
Freeridin’ Franklin: “Public tax records were instrumental in spelling out how profitable my field was and exactly how much I was getting ripped off by my employer.”
That’s interesting. How were you able to determine the relevant portions of your future competitors’ (or former coworkers’) incomes?
Seems kind of impossible, considering that (earned) income from ALL sources is aggregated under one heading: “ansiotulo.”
Happy trolling!
Comment by Kristian — Wed, Jan 30th, 2008 @ 8:41 am
@68 Yrjö is a noble attempt at Finnicizing the Swedish name Göran (George).
Kyösti is another very noble attempt at Finnicizing the Swedish name Gustav. Pörhölä, well that is a fairly common Finnish family name.
http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yrj%C3%B6
http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ky%C3%B6sti
Comment by Yrjö-Kyösti Pörhölä — Wed, Jan 30th, 2008 @ 10:04 am
Freeridin Franklin - tax records were instrumental in spelling out how profitable my field was
Since when do tax records report profitability???
I was searching for work in London in the financial sector.
Maybe you should try a field that you understand better?
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, Jan 30th, 2008 @ 10:05 am
@69 Hank is unravelling, when he starts to make fun of peoples’ names and “brain capacity”.
Comment by Yrjö-Kyösti Pörhölä — Wed, Jan 30th, 2008 @ 10:06 am
#72: Quite easy really, as detailed billing reports including rates were available on the client’s system and we knew each other’s salaries. It helped that in a consultancy, costs besides salaries are negligible and our employer was the Rolex-toting nouveau rich type who was bound to take everything out instead of reinvesting it. We checked and it added up.
“Happy trolling!”
Trying my best to learn from the best.
#74: With the financial house of subprime cards tumbling down, not least in jolly old England, you can bet I’m glad I didn’t get that job.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Wed, Jan 30th, 2008 @ 11:28 am
#70: Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t you work fora certain quasi-private sector entity where people were paid perhaps half of the Finnish market salaries (1/3 or 1/4 of the market salaries of the developed world)? There is this practice of adjusting your work output to match the salary. I hear it is quite widely applied at Phil’s employer.
I agree that this system reeks of the Soviet Union and has a damaging effect on society. People should be paid fair wages.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Wed, Jan 30th, 2008 @ 11:49 am
hfb: And I totally agree with you on the quality of tech support.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Wed, Jan 30th, 2008 @ 11:52 am
Franklin is a bullshitter.
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, Jan 30th, 2008 @ 4:35 pm
#79: I may well be, but in any case I told it like it is. In fact, with an uncomfortable level of candidness from the anonymity POV. Not that I have anything to hide, but there are some bona fide psychos hanging out here who I don’t need stalking myself and certainly not my significant other.
It seems that I have a new anonymous friend. To whom do I owe the honour?
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Wed, Jan 30th, 2008 @ 5:13 pm
It is interesting how quoting statistics doesn’t really register on the radar here - after all, it is what you’d expect from a brainwashed Finn. But should you supply an anecdote that goes against the party line, you can bet on being verbally assaulted.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Mon, Feb 4th, 2008 @ 1:40 am
@81 Not very many people are eagerly interested in talking about statistics that indicate that having public tax records in the Nordic Counries has done nothing for grey market economy. In fact, it seems it has had the opposite effect of what is intended. The Scandinavian countries have had a lot higher grey market activity than, for example, Germany, Austria, Switzerland and the USA. See http://www.verosirkus.com where there is a link to a World Bank study. The press is probably not interested, since they like to publish their top earner lists each year.
It also seems it has done nothing for corruption either. Finland is tied with New Zealand in corruption in Nationmaster.com, and up in the top with other Scandinavian countries, Switzerland and Australia. New Zealand and Australia have a huge variety and amount of different ethnic groups and immigrants living together and achieving a common understanding of what corruption is. And that has been achieved without the government selling/leaking the taxpayers’ income information to the press…
Noone is interested in reporting on the crimes that happen because of the government’s selling/leaking of tax personal data as well. So I am doing it. Just wait till I get access to the Finland crime registry or find someone who has access. I hope the EC looks there when deciding about this court case.
Comment by Sirkuspelle — Tue, Feb 5th, 2008 @ 10:06 am