Yuk, its Schwarzenegger, the liberal of california, who thinks he is a conservative.

Taxation model and taxation level don’t need to go hand in hand.

That photo of them two together is hysterical…
http://www.hs.fi/kuvat/iso_webkuva/1135233336102.jpeg

In a new book that was published in the US called “An Inconvenient Book”, it talks about how ice core samples taken from the artic show that a global warming trend is always followed by an increase in CO2. Right now they are ranting about how increased CO2 is going to cause global warming. Based on past evidence, that is a bit like saying that lung cancer causes smoking. In other words, I don’t think that Finland’s “new and improved” overtaxation of cars is going to make any difference.

aet75: “Taxation model and taxation level don’t need to go hand in hand.”

True environmental policy would focus on usage, not ownership. Ideally though, a formula that considers axle-weight * kilometers driven would be best, because it correlates with road wear as well as environment.

The current model is mainly a trade protectionism scheme that unnecessarily costs each consumer at least tens-of-thousands of euros—even when buying an eco-friendly car.

Furthermore, it doesn’t promote using public transit. That’s because once you’ve bought your overpriced car, you NEED to justify the price paid by driving it. A seutulippu, purchased additionally, would probably be more than most people’s budget could withstand.

http://www.auto24.de

Phil: “That photo of them two together is hysterical…
http://www.hs.fi/kuvat/iso_webkuva/1135233336102.jpeg”

Arnold trying his best to look interested and attentive

In the course of his visit, Vanhanen also had an opportunity to hold the sword of Conan the Barbarian.

Sirkuspelle, does that mean that CO2 is not a greenhouse gas? And more importantly, does that mean that we shouldn’t stop pumping more and more CO2 into the atmosphere? Research is good, using it to confuse people is not.

@8 according to what has been seen in ice core samples, CO2 is caused by global warming.

@9 that is a rise in CO2. CO2 comes from fires, plants, and bacteria.

Are you real Sirkuspelle?

Read those first:
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=13
http://icebubbles.ucsd.edu/Publications/CaillonTermIII.pdf

Sirkuspelle, while you might be correct in #4, I think the problem with CO2 currently is that the amounts in the atmosphere have risen by an unprecedented rate compared to previous periods of a similar warming trend, even in a millennial perspective. The numbers seemed to be off the charts, as I recall.

While this does not, like you say, necessarily indicate that CO2 emissions cause global warming, it does seem to show that human action is having a profound effect on the atmosphere not previously caused by natural phenomena. The high levels of “greenhouse gases” are, by definition, unnatural and their effects to the environment unpredictable. IMO this situation alone should prompt countries to cut these emissions.

Oh. And Phil, welcome back, you have been missed!

Another problem with collecting revenues from ownership rather than usage, is that it mainly hurts low-income people by setting a high barrier for acquiring a car. After all, should we automatically assume that only well-paid people need cars?

Or is it possible that families with lower incomes also need cars, at least occasionally for such things as doctor’s appointments or handling emergencies?

And even if they pass the hurdle of affordability, then should only high-earners have the luxury of owning reasonably-sized, safe cars, while not-so-fortunate families must squeeze-into dangerous little eco-coffins?

In my opinion, this underscores both, the hypocrisy and disadvantage of living in a high-tax / low-wealth society, whereby protectionism schemes must continually be conceived to prevent capital from flowing out of the country. In this case, once again, the lower strata of society bears the greatest hardship.

“Furthermore, it doesn’t promote using public transit. That’s because once you’ve bought your overpriced car, you NEED to justify the price paid by driving it”

Whatever. If you can blurp out gems of logic like this without blinking I can just safely ignore the rest of your one-sided rants.

“While this does not, like you say, necessarily indicate that CO2 emissions cause global warming, it does seem to show that human action is having a profound effect on the atmosphere not previously caused by natural phenomena.”

But CO2 does have an effect. So there’s no argument there. It’s just the amount of effect and local variations that’s being figured out. Seriously, you can find a book on Amazon to support any view you like, however unlikely. Why then go to a doctor, since you can just buy some DIY surgery guidebook? Why trust those liberal climate scientists with their inconvenient cries?

“Whatever. If you can blurp out gems of logic like this without blinking I can just safely ignore the rest of your one-sided rants.”

He does have a point there. The taxes should focus on use rather than ownership.

Of course, claiming that most people couldn’t afford a regional ticket suggests that Kristian been pumping iron with Ahhnuld or at least partaking of the fringe activities.

And yeah, some loon publishing a book is clearly evidence of it all being just a hoax. CO2 is transported into the atmosphere by UFOs from inside the Earth!

#14: The motivation doesn’t need to be logical for people to believe it. Astrology isn’t logical and people still do it. It is perfectly reasonable to assume that Kalle Mäyräkoira-Verkkarinen thinks that “Because I purchased this car very expensively, then I have to drive it a lot.” Not because it’s logical, but because it actually happens.

I agree with #16. and 17. & co.: Most people don’t buy cars to keep them in a garage and occationally go admire them. If you think you need one and you buy one, you are also going to use one. Pretty much whenever you can. Creatures of comfort we are.

And because that car of yours is waiting by your door in the morning when you’re off to work, you are going to end up using it more often than taking the public trasport. We don’t have so many big cities here that the thought of traffic jams etc. would make us leave the car behind. And however bad the reasoning may sound to others, if you buy an expensive car, you are bound to feel the need to prove (to yourself?) that the purchase was good by using it whenever you feel you must.

Sirkuspelle @ 10: @9 that is a rise in CO2. CO2 comes from fires, plants, and bacteria.

No CO2 from fossil fuels? Unless you mean power plants…

You know there is no dispute over whether CO2 is a greenhouse gas or not, nor whether the greenhouse effect exists or not. Therefore all the CO2 we produce adds to global warming (at least in theory) so even if CO2 levels rise after warming (like a book you read suggests), human activity is still warming the atmosphere. Can you deny this?

No no, the increase in temperature is because of increased Thetan activity. A book published in the US said so, it must be true.

Arneld Shwarzneker eats a lot of Weiner Schnitzel and Sausage,and German beer…causing…me..me..me..me..METHAAAANE gas! He is emanating global warming footprint!

It’s snowing in the deep south right now (and in Baghdad for that matter)….even if space aliens are to blame, the world climate is totally fucked and smart people are going to start thinking about where water will not become scarce in the next few decades as well as getting a few survivalist skills.

Just for the record, I have actually watched “An Inconvenient Truth” and found it delightfully non-Michael Moore-ishly compelling. Considering that nobody is going to be willing to reduce CO2 and, instead, spend the time bickering about who or what is to blame I’d think that smart people would start to prepare for the inevitable.

hfb:
“It’s snowing in the deep south right now (and in Baghdad for that matter)”

Good that it’s snowing somewhere, cause it sure ain’t in Helsinki. The temperature’s been a pretty steady +3 degrees throughout January.

“smart people are going to start thinking about where water will not become scarce”

Finland is one of the strong candidates.

“I’d think that smart people would start to prepare for the inevitable.”

I think that not having children is a good start. Let the Winnies and Punties explain to their grandchildren that grandpa just HAD to have a Hummer.

“Good that it’s snowing somewhere, cause it sure ain’t in Helsinki. The temperature’s been a pretty steady +3 degrees throughout January.”

…Or in Oulu either. This is a bloody disgrace for winter (The season, not the famous FFT contributor.)

“Finland is one of the strong candidates.”

Hrm…not with the data I’m seeing these days out of MIT. Granted, it won’t be a desert like the Med, but water will still become scarce. What study or data is suggesting otherwise? Something out of FMI? It ain’t snowin’ and it ain’t rainin’ much either for that matter.

And children….yes, they’re a liability when it comes to survival but someone can’t leave the planet to only the idiots’ gene pool. Watch Idiocracy.

@25 its gonna take a lot to dry up the 180,000 lakes that we have here. And with a rainy winter like the one we are having, I don’t think we will have any shortage anytime soon. Many of the lakes have water of the quality that you can ladle it out and drink it directly.

One of the so colled effects that is supposed to take place from global warming is that the Gulf Stream is supposed to weaken and perhaps shut down. It looks like it has only strengthened. Finland is starting to have a temperate marine climate like in the UK/Scotland.

The increase in CO2 that we are seeing might be from a global warming that has already taken place is what the book is saying. No doubt, there are some signs of human activity, but the book shows evidence that human activity is not having as big an impact as what it currently politically “in fashion” to rant about.

The higher CO2 means it is a good time to plant trees. In Finland we should be able to grow more fruit and nut trees.

Oh hfb, you “have actually watched ‘An Inconvenient Truth’”! Pretty good for an American. It’s funny when hfb pretends to know something.

Sirkuspelle – Uh…you drink the lake water? With the paper and pulp industry largely centered around the lake district I wouldn’t be quite so sure that the water is as pure as you suggest, e.g. http://www.yle.fi/news/id80579.html

And…don’t forget that the melting of Greenland and Antarctica will give rise to the sea levels leaving a large portion of Finland underwater, especially around the coasts and lake district.

“the book shows evidence that human activity is not having as big an impact as what it currently politically “in fashion” to rant about.”

Has it been peer reviewed? The evidence on the other side has been, unpolitically.

“Uh…you drink the lake water?…”

Obviously this is not recommendable downstream from a pulp mill but yes, there are some clearwatered lakes up in north with drinkable water. I have done it. People go hiking there for weeks and it would be a heck of a job to carry all the drinking water with them.

Of course, I wouldn’t recommend that for the first-timers. They should boil the water or zap it with these new battery-operated LED devices emitting ultraviolet light. People can get their stomach upside down even by pure tap water, if they are not used to the local variety of ‘harmless’ microbes.

“…sea levels leaving a large portion of Finland underwater”

That remains to be seen. The mass of ice has been off for relatively short time geologically speaking and the land is rising at rate of about 1m in 100 years. The shoreline is still moving towards the sea in Oulu and the west coast.

Antti – Well…let’s not forget fertilizers and pesticides from agribusiness and the blue-green algae. All those heavy metals and PCBs still lay at the bottom, too, waiting for something to disturb them. I very rarely ate the fish so I wouldn’t want to drink untreated water, either.

If you mean by the ‘shoreline is still moving towards the Sea’ that Finland is still rising about 1cm or so per year I’m not sure that will be enough to outpace the sea rise with the far more accelerated melting in Greenland than was previously thought to exist. The Netherlands are very worried so I suspect anyone near current sea level should be, too. I remember the flooding in Helsinki just when a bad storm would come up….

Does anyone know where I could hear Vanhanen speak English? I haven’t been able to find any video evidence of his apparently ‘tankero’-style language, and I’m curious as to how good/bad it really is.

Miriam, just for you, some examples…
rtsp://real.goodmood.edgestreams.net/valtioneuvosto/20071105_reinfeldt.rm
http://www.valtioneuvosto.fi/tiedostot/julkinen/tallenteet/2006/20061123_pmi_islanti.rm
http://www.valtioneuvosto.fi/tiedostot/julkinen/tallenteet/2006/pmi_intia_20061012.rm

Thank you JG

You’re welcome Miriam. What was your opinion?

Well. If I’m being nice, I did actually understand what he was trying to say most of the time. If I’m honest, WTF?? How has he been able to avoid learning English?

- Icelandisk interest in Finland is increased.
- Two-side policy (as in mutual..?)
- Most difficultest decisions
A selection of the grammar mistakes in one of the audios (the ‘islanti’ one)

Yes, his English is not the best. Although I have no desire to defend him, I would say he’s not a natural linguist. His Swedish is bad too (http://www.yle.fi/player/85386.asx?s=512 – although it’s nothing compared to Jyrki Katainen’s, who really should be congratulated for being so brave as to appear in the debate!). In fairness to him (MV), he must be in his 50s by now, and that generation is often not as good as the younger generations. It depends sometimes where you went to school. At that time, English teaching was for less hours than now in most places. Also, during the crucial younger years there was far less exposure to English. Now you can turn on the tv at any time and it won’t take long to find some. But yes, Vanhanen’s language abilities are not great. He’s admitted that himself before. He has the “stereotypical” problems with making some Germanic sounds when he speaks English or Swedish. His prepositions are also very bad in both languages. (In fairness, prepositions are quite hard to learn in a foreign language as they are essentially “random”, there’s little logic – so it’s down to memory.)

Anyway, I have two children (haha, not really children anymore…but) who are 20 and 22, and they speak English way better than me. I suspect they write in English better as well. I know that a fair number of their university text books are in English. Once their generation filters through, we won’t have any problems.

@29 the lake 1.8 kilometers away has less fecal coliform bacteria in it than the Turku municipal water, which is drinkable from the tap, albeit not the best tasting you can find.

We didn’t have municipal water where I live until the 90s. Well water still tastes better and we still use it for the kitchen sink. The ground water is of a good standard here (that said, there was a worrying story in the local newspaper this week about too much uranium in many wells in this area). Although, I must say municipal water comes in useful for powering things like showers. Was extremely irritating in hot summers when it was always a risk of running out of water! No such worries any longer.

JG, I agree that his age can have something to do with it, but I don’t buy that generation explanation in full – He’s been in politics for a fairly long time (e.g an MP from the early 1990′s). As an MP he would have had access to language teachers and courses abroad any time he wanted. He comes from an academic background and has a university education. Active in youth politics in the 1970′s he had more opportunities to travel than most young people did – at least to other Nordic countries and Russia. Yet his Swedish is pretty horrid as well.

Billions of non-language minded people learn English all the time because they want to learn it, and I doubt all of them are exposed to English that often. Vanhanen doesn’t want to learn it, and for someone in his position an attitude like that is just not good enough. His poor English abilities are the fruits of his past shortsightedness, of not understanding how important English was even then but certainly not understanding how much more important it would become in his chosen field of employment.
But maybe it’s just me thinking that a total disinterest in foreign languages also often makes for pretty uninteresting people.

I’m getting all worked up now I’ll let it go, MV is not worth it.