Woman rejected from dance course in Pori for being a foreigner
@ 8:45 am Source:
http://www.promenadi.net/uutinen.php?lngID=102818
A dance club in Pori told a 31 year old Russian woman that she could not enroll for a dance course because the course was intended for only “natural Finnish people”. She was told that this is in the club’s rules. The woman read that the course was for everyone (”kaikille”) in the advertisment. It was found later that there was no such rule. This was clearly a case where somone in the club was just clearly discriminating against the woman.
But, Oops, I guess they forgot this part of the Finnish Penal Code:
Chapter 11 - War crimes and offences against humanity (578/1995)
Section 9 - Discrimination (578/1995)
A person who in his/her trade or profession, service of the general public, exercise of official authority or other public function or in the arrangement of a public amusement or meeting, without a justified reason
(1) refuses someone service in accordance with the generally applicable conditions;
(2) refuses someone entry to the amusement or meeting or ejects him/her; or
(3) places someone in an unequal or an essentially inferior position owing to his/her race, national or ethnic origin, colour, language, sex, age, family ties, sexual preference, state of health, religion, political orientation, political or industrial activity or another comparable circumstance shall be sentenced, unless the act is punishable as industrial discrimination, for discrimination to a fine or to imprisonment for at most six months.
Apparently, there is an official you can turn to if you have been discriminated against. The article mentioned a Minorities Ombudsman (”Vähemmistövaltuutettu” Not sure how that is officially translated. ). The contact person mentioned in the article was Rainer Hiltunen. In cases of discrimination, you can also press charges (=tehdä rikosilmoitus) at the local police station as well.
Sometimes I think this country is about 50 years behind most others in the EU. I think generally, Finnish people are still uncomfortable with the idea that so many foreigners are now residing in the country, a theory that can easily be tested by riding the tram in Helsinki when a couple of African or Asian people are on it as well - take note of the several Finns who stare for up to minutes on end, with a horrid look on their faces, as if the immigrants on the tram are from Mars, rather than from just a few thousand kilometers away.
Finnish people need to jump into the 21st century and realize that the world is a big place.
Comment by Buck Nasty — Thu, Dec 13th, 2007 @ 9:12 am
Obviously you don’t live in hervanta where it ssoome times seems like half the population is foreigners. Here people don’t really bat an eye if they see someone with skincolor darker than yours.
Comment by Saku — Thu, Dec 13th, 2007 @ 10:15 am
I’m not surprised that happened here.
Comment by gopha — Thu, Dec 13th, 2007 @ 10:47 am
“The article mentioned a Minorities Ombudsman”
I think “Minorities” in this case refers to Carelian refugees. What are minorities in other countries would be considered space aliens in Finland
Comment by Kristian — Thu, Dec 13th, 2007 @ 2:59 pm
“Sometimes I think this country is about 50 years behind most others in the EU.”
Nonsense, stuff like this happens all the time all over Europe. It’s natural. For a somewhat comparable example, did you hear about the recent case in Uppsala, Sweden, where the city in cooperation with a trade union forbade employees from talking to each other in Finnish, even during coffee breaks and in other private situations? I don’t think something like this could happen in Finland. Sweden must be a hundred years behind the rest of the EU, right?
From this blog’s resident libertarians I’d like to know whether they think the dance club in this case should have had the right to discriminate against the Russian woman. After all, they’re a private association, and the anti-discrimination legislation is clearly preventing the club from choosing only those members they want, that is, the state is limiting the freedom of citizens.
Comment by Turjake — Thu, Dec 13th, 2007 @ 3:51 pm
@5 They shouldn’t discriminate if there is no basis for it. A Turkish Dervish dancing group might want to have Turks in it who believe in that particular form of Islam - that would be understandable.
The notice for this dance club said “kaikille”, and there was no club rule that you have to be Finnish.
Comment by Sirkuspelle — Thu, Dec 13th, 2007 @ 4:12 pm
In fact foreigners face less discrimination according to surveys here than in most countries, and the Finns, when asked in surveys, have less xenophobic attitudes than in most countries, not nearly as little as in Sweden but still.
By studying Eurobarometer on will find that Finnish attitudes are are very “modern” in most respects, believe it or not we’re not cave men.
Comment by Anonymous — Thu, Dec 13th, 2007 @ 4:36 pm
As far as i understand Finland has only 90 years old. So one should ask who was first the egg of the chicken…My point here is that finnish looks like Swedish or Russian or Estonian or any other race…only the language and psychology makes the difference…
So just please check your hand and say sorry and roll on the party…
Comment by Anonymous — Thu, Dec 13th, 2007 @ 4:50 pm
“Finland is 50 years behind most of Europe”
…
“Is Sweden then 100 years behind?”
Well, by the look of it, they are =)
If Finland is 50 years behind and we abolished that kind of stuff in the 50’s… 50+50=100!
But the fact is that we have some racists here in Finland. I don’t know if we have less or more compared to the world outside but in any case something should be done to correct their attitudes towards other peoples.
The most common form of racism I have encountered when asking people what they think about immigrants is of the “they are ok as long as they stay in their country” type.
Judging from my experience, it’s generally the less educated people and people from the isolated countryside communities that think like that, maybe because they don’t understand what refugees are going through or that the economy actually needs more manpower: most of the immigrants are educated, experienced workers and not just subsidy-sucking bums.
Oh, and before I have two thirds of the Finland shouting “ingnorant helsinkian!” at me, I should point out that I actually live outside the “kolmoskehä”, so I dare say I know what I’m talking about when I mention “isolated countryside communities”.
Comment by Lutz — Thu, Dec 13th, 2007 @ 4:58 pm
Lutz, I’d agree with you, and add that many people in the countryside do not really care for “city slickers” or “university types” either… Isolation is the key, and it is hard to understand something that you don’t know. It does not have to be a foreigner.
Arguably the Finnish coutryside is, or has until recently been, one of the most isolated places in Northern or Western Europe in regards to seeing or meeting foreigners. People in the ex-Communist countries of Eastern Europe tend to be as isolated and ignorant, especially in the country. It will not do miracles for tolerance and understanding, if you live far from cities and economic centres and rarely will or can travel abroad. This is also a testament to the late urbanisation and only recent affluence of Finland.
This is exactly the issue one HS reporter brought up in a story about the current political climate in Russia. After listening quietly a bunch of Nashi youths spouting putinist propaganda about Estonian Nazis and the European conspiracies against Mother Russia, the reporter levelly asked them if they had actually been to Europe. They had not, and had seemed incredulous after the reporter explained to them how simple it is to get a visa to Finland and take a train to Helsinki.
Comment by Drakon — Thu, Dec 13th, 2007 @ 5:47 pm
That said, the isolation does not extend to the whole countryside. For instance, Närpes has won lots of awards for its integration policies and successes and in many ways is far better at integrating immigrants and refugees than any of the big cities.
Comment by JG — Thu, Dec 13th, 2007 @ 5:57 pm
Finland is well known for being a xenophobic racist nation. In Poland newspapers have run stories on how Poles are discriminated against when trying to get jobs in Finland.
A very high percentage of foreigners that come to Finland go back home because they cannot accept the racism dished out to them by the Finns. Guess what these people say about Finland to their fellow countrymen
Finns: you cannot claim that your country is less racist than other countries. That judgement can only be made by immigrants. Do they feel that there is racism against them in Finland. When it comes to racism in Finland it’s their opinion that matters. The same point applies to Finns living in Spain, Germany or Britain. Finns are then entitled to make judgements about the society they have decided to join.
The best indicator of the intensity of racism in Finland is numerical. Finland has great public services. It is a safe clean place. For nearly 13 years Finland has been part of the EU; enabling other EU nationals the right to live and work in Finland. But despite this Finland still has the lowest percentage of foreigners in the old EU 15. Foreigners who haven’t done their research and try moving to Finland experience racism- so most leave again. Finland’s racist reputation is growing and will continue to grow and Finns can do nothing about this perception, unless, that is, they decide to stop being racist
Comment by Anonymous — Thu, Dec 13th, 2007 @ 6:20 pm
Turjake: From this blog’s resident libertarians I’d like to know whether they think the dance club in this case should have had the right to discriminate”
You mean me? Yes, the dance club should be able to discriminate. If people want to be around others ‘like themselves’, then they should be able to do so. You can’t force people to accept each other; it just doesn’t work that way.
However, I don’t think it’s a good idea for a club to have such policies. And maybe it’s an opportunity for a ‘mixed’ dance club to open nearby and compete for business, because not everybody in the countryside wants to be isolated.
Oh wait, business competition in Finland? Nevermind.
Comment by Kristian — Thu, Dec 13th, 2007 @ 6:24 pm
@3 I’m not surprised that happened here.
I’m not surprised it happened there.
Comment by Hank W. — Thu, Dec 13th, 2007 @ 6:57 pm
=>12 Polish are the people who come to Finland and expect to get a job without speaking one word of Finnish? When will the report in the Polish newspapers be there is Finnish language requirement to get a job in Finland? Of course if you do not speak Finnish you do not get a job if there is someone that does. The Poles must be far much happier working as slave labor in some farms in the UK. There is no discrimination for slave labor, just cheaper prices.
Comment by Pukka Shahib — Thu, Dec 13th, 2007 @ 7:03 pm
@13 I don’t think the club itself has such a policy, but the person that answered the phone had such a policy.
Comment by Hank W. — Thu, Dec 13th, 2007 @ 7:09 pm
@15 I don’t think its slave labor, but gangmasters do not discriminate
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6903893.stm
@12 Maybe you expect this kind of libertarian dream here? I don’t want such in Finland, an economy running on exploited labor is not a good thing.
Comment by Hank W. — Thu, Dec 13th, 2007 @ 7:20 pm
@12:
Are you referring to the one Polish woman who failed to get a job in Finland because of his lack of Finnish skills? She participated in some EU-wide study on employment.
Racism is not the reason why Finland has relatively few immigrants, certainly not in the case of EU-15 citizens. Finland is the EU’s northernmost member country with constantly crappy weather. Even more importantly, salaries in Finland are some of the lowest in the EU-15.
If you have some source for your claim that “[a] very high percentage of foreigners that come to Finland go back home because they cannot accept the racism dished out to them by the Finns”, I’d like to see it.
Comment by Turjake — Thu, Dec 13th, 2007 @ 7:22 pm
Äh, Turjake, no use explaining things everybody knows.
Comment by Hank W. — Thu, Dec 13th, 2007 @ 7:34 pm
The average salaries are among the highest not lowest (as long as you’re not competing for those high-end jobs for which we’ve got plenty of competition).
The reason why Finland has so few foreigners has to do with the labor market: only recently the lack of work force has gotten so bad that the kind of mass immigration that’s been going on in other parts of western Europe has just begun here.
Interestingly, Nokia just announced that it transfers jobs to Korea–not because the workforce is cheaper (what it is) but because its efforts to get new employees since last spring has not succeeded.
And if rain is any indicator of crappy weather most countries west from us have crappier.
Comment by Anonymous — Thu, Dec 13th, 2007 @ 7:35 pm
@12 The thing is we’re not any *more* racist/xenophobic than say… your homophobic xenophobic racist Poland. You just look at the numbers. Maybe we are - god forbid - less racist? Can you imagine - no neonazis marching! Maybe we ought to follow the suit of Germany and Poland and Sweden? As they are so much better countries? Should we?
You’re just a boy calling wolf - once you have some real grief and a valid reason you won’t find anybody who cares.
Comment by Hank W. — Thu, Dec 13th, 2007 @ 11:00 pm
Hank in denial (yet again)
Comment by Anonymous — Fri, Dec 14th, 2007 @ 12:17 am
Hank doesn’t get it. It’s not what you say that matters, instead it’s what you and your fellow countrymen do when you interact with foreigners living in Finland that matters.
Comment by Anonymous — Fri, Dec 14th, 2007 @ 12:19 am
Hank W.: “The thing is we’re not any *more* racist/xenophobic than say… your homophobic xenophobic racist Poland.”
I think Poland is far more anti-foreigner than Finland, partly because Poland has lots of unemployed or barely-employed worker types who see any outside presence as a threat to what little standard of living they have. For many, they can’t go much lower.
I’ve spent lots of time in Poland—bicycled through the country several times and had some minor business dealings there. It’s a very interesting place, but the anti-foreigner sentiment can be felt especially if they suspect you are German. It’s kind of an irrational fear they have.
In contrast, Finland has less industrial worker types, and a more developed middle class. The middle class doesn’t normally perceive outsiders as a direct threat to its jobs as worker types do. Of course, that’s not to say all of Finland’s middle class is pro-foreigner.
Generally, it is common for Socialist-leaning countries to have a strong Nationalist bent across all strata. In Finland’s case, even a middle class person can justify his anti-foreigner sentiment by claiming that foreigners dilute the welfare he or his children receive (i.e. university education, healthcare, etc.), precisely because the state plays such an active part in people’s lives.
It leads to yet another stark contrast: Finland to more economically liberal countries like USA and even Germany. In both USA and Germany, foreigners are viewed as people who benefit society. Germany perhaps a little bit less so, but more positive than Finland in any case. The reason is that foreigners don’t compete for some small pool of resources in these places; instead, they grow the economy. Hence, there’s no need for jealousies against foreigners.
Comment by Kristian — Fri, Dec 14th, 2007 @ 2:23 am
In Finland, the racism is not always what is openly said and done, but what is not said and not done. When a shop assistant is friendly and offers help to a Finn, but ignores and avoids a foreigner, that is discrimination. When a Finn is friendly to his or her Finnish neighbours but avoids the foreign ones, that is the same thing. Noone can force people to be interested in you or to be curious about you. Also noone can force people to be polite or show hospitality. That has to come from within. That is where the most painful form of racism is for foreigners is in Finland and that is what causes people to leave.
Also Finnish people are not especially friendly or polite to each other in many cases, making Finland a difficult place for even Finnish people, let alone foreigners. People are often timid and afraid to start speaking to a stranger, but especially if they might have to speak a foreign language.
Comment by Sirkuspelle — Fri, Dec 14th, 2007 @ 8:30 am
And lets not forget that Finns are white devils planning on destroying foreigners from their spaceships. In fact they would have done it already if loud noises didn’t scare them. I mean, just see how big the racist movements in Finland are, like, uh … well, they certainly would be big if they existed. And speaking to somebody is indeed something I’ll try one of these days, then I’ll know if it hurts as much as you, vitunpelle, suggest
Comment by Anonymous — Fri, Dec 14th, 2007 @ 9:14 am
@22 And you are in denial that you’re a guest in my house and lack manners?
Comment by Hank W. — Fri, Dec 14th, 2007 @ 9:56 am
@23 And you don’t get it. Our country - our rules. We interact just the way we customarily do in our own country. Not the way you interact in some other country. If you do not like how the natives interact that is your problem, not the natives’.
Comment by Hank W. — Fri, Dec 14th, 2007 @ 9:59 am
@24 Germany perhaps a little bit less so, but more positive than Finland in any case.
Yeah, right. And the child of a Turkish gastarbeiter in 3rd generation is turkish Turkish. More positive you can always expel the foreigner. In Finland they atleast can become citizens.
Comment by Hank W. — Fri, Dec 14th, 2007 @ 10:09 am
@25. How is it “discrimination” if the ignores and avoids a foreigner is explained by the People are often timid and afraid to start speaking to a stranger, but especially if they might have to speak a foreign language. ???
You are again raising foreigners above other people requiring special attention. Why should someone bend over backwards to acommodate them? What are they doing to acommodate the natives? All they do is complaining, whining, and call them racists? No wonder nobody wants to say hello.
You’re spot on on the observation Finnish people are not especially friendly or polite to each other in many cases, making Finland a difficult place for even Finnish people… its a tribal society still, evolved one, but the underlying “the guy from the neighbouring village competes for my hunting grounds” is there sometimes.
Comment by Hank W. — Fri, Dec 14th, 2007 @ 10:15 am
Hank, still, in denial. Funny!
Comment by Anonymous — Fri, Dec 14th, 2007 @ 11:06 am
Was this a private dance class or publicly funded?
I get stared at on Helsinki trams, but less so then when I go back home to L.A.. Maybe because white people aren’t expected to ride public transportation in California, including the smug folk in ‘Frisco.
Yes, I wrote Frisco, just to make you smug latte liberals rush back to your therapist.
Que viva Finlandia!
Comment by Ari Sawyer — Fri, Dec 14th, 2007 @ 11:41 am
@31 Denial of what? That you are insignificant?
Comment by Hank W. — Fri, Dec 14th, 2007 @ 12:42 pm
If this was some humppaklubi perhaps the grannies found young Nasti (karelian for ‘Anastassia’) threatening to ‘the balance of terror’.
Comment by Antti rn — Fri, Dec 14th, 2007 @ 1:20 pm
Tää pelle writes a truly xenophobic, almost racist message about how racist the Finns are! Is that some sort of an ironic circus act I don’t understand?
Comment by Anonymous — Fri, Dec 14th, 2007 @ 2:38 pm
Perhaps this isn’t a general type of racism. It seems more like a cultural prejudice against the ‘old’ enemy. But of course that Russian lady has every right to complain and feel aggrieved.
Comment by Andy Campbell — Fri, Dec 14th, 2007 @ 3:57 pm
Sirkuspelle: “In Finland, the racism is not always what is openly said and done, but what is not said and not done.”
I tend to agree with that, but there’s probably a difference between generations. Middle aged people are more accustomed to the isolated and homogeneous Finland, where communication was simple and conformity was valued above everything else.
In my opinion, more widespread trade and commerce at the individual level would have helped, but instead—and perhaps through no fault of its own—Finland was stuck for 50-years in a militarized and semi-Socialist mire. Waiting for a government handout in some form or another doesn’t exactly promote interpersonal communications.
I guess the positive news is that young people are much more open and willing to interact—perhaps not so much as those in other countries, but more than their parents in any case. They also have better foreign language skills and are eager to test them on someone else. But I guess it’s difficult to benefit from it, if you are not part of that younger generation.
Hank W.: Yeah, right. And the child of a Turkish gastarbeiter in 3rd generation is turkish Turkish.”
The German population’s attitude toward foreigners can’t be explained by official government policy, especially considering that it’s a country with 80M population and having undergone a difficult reunification. Things change slowly in Deutschland. On an interpersonal level, Germans are far more accepting than Finns. Maybe it’s because Germany has had gastarbeitern and new settlers for such a long time, whereas the phenomenon is relatively new in Finland.
Another general difference is that Germans are far more likely to speak with someone sitting next to them on a train, whereas the Finn is more likely to bury himself in a newspaper. I honestly think that is due to a difference in level of commerce between the two societies.
If you really want to experience openness, go to the land of commerce: the USA. Everyone within earshot will tell you their life’s story
Comment by Kristian — Fri, Dec 14th, 2007 @ 7:22 pm
I’m willing to bet a lot on this danceclub segregator being a middle-aged woman. A real textbook case in all respects. A couple of months in the slammer will serve her right.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Fri, Dec 14th, 2007 @ 7:34 pm
@37 A middle aged woman just divorced, and her ex-husband is now married to a Nadja from Nizhni-Novgorod
Comment by Hank W. — Fri, Dec 14th, 2007 @ 8:54 pm
“Our women and jobs” works both ways. An analogous situation would be some 50-year-old walrus moustache vs. a young, fit African or Turkish guy.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Fri, Dec 14th, 2007 @ 10:03 pm
According to my experience Finland is racist country.I live there for four years and i could see racism in many aspects of Finns,if not minority is majority.Now i live in Sweden and i can say for sure,Sweden is very nice place,there is not that much racism.Finland has still a long way to go before it can convince many foreigners to live there.
Comment by Pekka — Fri, Dec 14th, 2007 @ 11:29 pm
So, are the riots better in Sweden? Convincing enough?
Comment by Hank W. — Fri, Dec 14th, 2007 @ 11:37 pm
Hank is a silly little blind Nationalist.
Hank doesn’t get it. He would like to tell all foreigners what to think about Finland; all the positive stuff. He simply cannot accept that foreigners prefer their own opinions about Finland compared to other countries, such as Sweden. Foreigners that have lived in Finland know that Finland is a racist hellhole. Before 1995 Finnish propaganda about Finland worked because, before that date, virtually zero foreigners lived in Finland. The bad news reality did not get out. Today, it does because foreigners have a theoretical right to live and work in Finland. The majority that come go home very quickly and spread the bad word. Hank, you might not like it, but the reality of Finland will spread. There’s nothing that you can do about it. Well, apart from change the way you treat foreigners. However, that will never change. One people, one language, one mind. Racism against foreigners and extreme Nationalism is taught at Finnish homes and schools from a very early age.
Comment by Anonymous — Sat, Dec 15th, 2007 @ 12:34 pm
he simply cannot accept that foreigners prefer their own opinions
So give us a link about those opinions because I’m not going to take the word of a single or couple of people who hang around this Finnophobic blog. The latest survey I’ve seen was about foreigners in the workforce and it was surprisingly positive. Very few foreigners said that they had met racist attitudes in the work place.
Here’s one study:
http://www.feem.it/NR/Feem/resources/EurodivPapers/ED2006-027.pdf
In my data it is more common to state that one has not experienced discrimination
than the other way round. In his first story Benjamin from Israel talks about his work
place in regard to foreigners like this:
They seem to be quite cautious on taking new employees (very flattering
remembering the quickness of my integration), but do not discriminate on
basis of race, age or sex.
In a similar manner, Turkish Kemal comments the topic of discrimination in his first
story:
I did not experience any kind of discrimination regarding my ethnic origin
in my professional career. For this, I appreciate the positive attitude of all
the people involved with these activities.
(Not that this–or any other survey I’ve seen–is entirely positive, naturally. But nor do they prove that Finns would be the kind of aggressive cave men described here.)
Comment by Anonymous — Sat, Dec 15th, 2007 @ 1:38 pm
Rules of life
1. The sun always rises in the morning
2. Pigs do not fly
3. Never trust any survey on Finland that has been administered by the Finns themselves
The bottom line is this: Finland’s a crap place to live for foreigners, and that’s why so few live there.
Comment by Anonymous — Sat, Dec 15th, 2007 @ 1:49 pm
One people, one language, one mind. Racism against foreigners and extreme Nationalism is taught at Finnish homes and schools from a very early age.
That’s one of the most riddiculous statements I’ve read on here for ages.
Comment by JG — Sat, Dec 15th, 2007 @ 2:05 pm
It’s true that Finland is so corrupted country and Finns so dishonest that you shouldn’t trust anything they say let alone write in peer-review publications. The gas chambers would be the best place for such liars and racists.
(10 000 per year is the latest net migration figure, by the way, and going up.)
Comment by Anonymous — Sat, Dec 15th, 2007 @ 2:08 pm
Anonymous, you’re clearly a troll, so I don’t know why I’m bothering to respond. You clearly have a far greater intolerance problem than that which afflicts some parts of Finnish society.
But that figure of 10 000 net, is 10 000 coming INTO Finland.
In 2006, 22 450 people moved into Finland, 12 100 left Finland - so that leaves the net immigration of 10 350 (in the incoming direction’s favour).
http://www.stat.fi/til/muutl/index_sv.html
Comment by JG — Sat, Dec 15th, 2007 @ 2:18 pm
Finland is not institutionally racist. Some Finnish people are racist just like there are racist people everywhere. But if you really want to see racism both institutional and private then go to Russia. Without doubt Russia is the most racist of all countries. They are xenophobic in the extreme and any criticism of Finland should be balanced with knowing what it’s like ‘over there to the east’ Ironic that it was a Russian woman who was prejudiced against.
Comment by Andy Campbell — Sat, Dec 15th, 2007 @ 3:28 pm
Andy, how long have you been in Finland for? Give it time mate, give it time!
Comment by Anonymous — Sat, Dec 15th, 2007 @ 3:33 pm
So the that Finnish woman dumped you, troll, get over it already, for heaven’s sake mate.
Comment by Anonymous — Sat, Dec 15th, 2007 @ 3:41 pm
Before 1995 Finnish propaganda about Finland worked because, before that date, virtually zero foreigners lived in Finland. The bad news reality did not get out. Today, it does because foreigners have a theoretical right to live and work in Finland. The majority that come go home very quickly and spread the bad word. Hank, you might not like it, but the reality of Finland will spread.
Oh bummer. So that means less foreigners? Must be a win-win situation then for “One people, one language, one mind” crowd. So, when was you leaving to spread the word? See now if I was an anti-foreigner nationalist I’d agree with you as the worse the propaganda the less the immigration. Where was your logic there?
Comment by Hank W. — Sun, Dec 16th, 2007 @ 4:13 pm
@44 Wouldn’t call it a survey, its more of a thesis study. But anyways, it shows the complexity of the issues at hand. I’m just afraid nobody here ranting and raving can care to read it nor comprehend what its all about.
Comment by Hank W. — Sun, Dec 16th, 2007 @ 4:32 pm
I’m a Fin who has been residing in Canada for 37 years. Yes i am still proud to call myself a Fin, and still consider it home. I visit Finland when i can to see my relatives and was married there several years ago. I cheer for the Finns during hockey championships and follow F1 religiously. Raikkonen is da man. Too bad for Gronholm. Showing some resentment for the Germans and Russians is to be expected, considering their role in invasions in the country. That ideology probably has been passed down through generations, not something easy to forget, especially for many older Finns. This shouldn’t be viewed as racism. Finland is to me a model country and serves its people well, considering its’ small taxpayer base and relatively unchanged population. The foreigners leaving probably left for many other reasons than the cited racist card. Maybe the grass wasn’t as green as they thought, jobs weren’t good enough, or just homesick. The Finnish tongue isn’t that easy either. Canada implemented a strategy to boost the economy by allowing enormous amounts of immigrants, especially Chinese, to spend money. Consequently, many immigrants do not pay income tax, yet get the benefit of services, most noteably medical. This has caused an enormous strain on the medical system. I believe this downturn played a role in my fathers death, as he wasn’t provided timely treatment due to backlogs. Perhaps if he had gone back to the homeland, Joulu would be a little different. Indifference and racism are unlike, you don’t have to like anyone. Every country looks at outsiders with apprehension, understandably normal as it is our tribal nature. Acting out with hatred is more conducive to racism. Of all the European countries I’ve travelled through in the last decade, i felt the most unwelcomed in Germany and France. I skipped Austria, unfortunately due to the large German presence. Nice people are everywhere, sometimes you just get a bad apple.
Comment by bazooka joe — Mon, Dec 17th, 2007 @ 6:39 pm
Yes #54 I agree with you and have stated as much in my replies here. One must remember that racism is found everywhere in every country. I’m not black so we have to ask black people if they feel more prejudiced against here than in other European or in Asian countries. As a white European in Finland then of course I have never experienced any form of prejudice or racism (except may be not being able to buy on credit at Verkkokauppa :-)). In Finland people play by the rules and if they break the rules then they will be in trouble. Finland is not institutionally racist and the rules here are quite clear.
Finland is a very fair country to live in. Of course we find nationalists here who are narrow-minded and they make my blood boil, but then we have plenty of nationalists all over Europe.
Comment by Andy Campbell — Mon, Dec 17th, 2007 @ 8:52 pm
You people claiming Finland is not racist - maybe you should start to get in line with what foreigners observe in this country. There is a forum I went on about Finland and foreigners and perhaps 80% mentioned that Finland has an underlying racist element in its society that is prevalent the moment foreigners try and interact with the system and the people. You people claiming that racism are not as prevalent in Finland are nationalists and should not be blinded from the truth; the fact stands that this country is inherently racist and you will find that the vast majority of people hold racist views here. Even racist parties like the True Finns managed to win MORE seats in the Eduskunta this election! The SDPs are just as racist with that horrible ex-immigration minister who was openly racist.
I am not accusing the state of being racist (though they have been in the past), nor am I accusing the laws of being so, but the society DEFINITELY is. It’s much more intolerant than say, Sweden, and this is also towards other more liberal issues like gay people, and if you live here long enough, you will end up meeting your fair share of openly racist Finns. In my case, it’s been something toward 65%, including an Army guy who said he was only serving for the “real Finns, not the immigrants who who never be Finnish”, or two other guys who admitted to me that they were racist and proud of it and so on. I’ve met lovely Finns also, but this country I’m afraid, is as racist as they come.
Comment by Jack — Mon, Dec 17th, 2007 @ 11:49 pm
Hitler would have been proud of Finland. Virtually zero foreigners. The few that do live there are ostracised
For me, like you, Jack, Finland has a sick racist society
Comment by Anonymous — Tue, Dec 18th, 2007 @ 10:33 am
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Comment by Anonymous — Tue, Dec 18th, 2007 @ 11:11 am
I am going to visit Finland in May. How are tourists viewed…as a whole…in the country? Do people scoff at them and treat them harshly? My friends live in Jarvenpaa and they will show us around most of the places. But my girlfriend and I will also venture out ON OUR OWN and try to mingle with the natives. Hopefully, we are not pelted with rocks when we step off of the boat (joke.) I am excited to go…basically, because I have never ben anywhere outside of the States. Hopefully, it will be fun
Comment by MattW — Tue, Dec 18th, 2007 @ 8:30 pm
Jack and Anonymous, I’m not trying to defend Finnish racism, but go live in Russia for a while, that’ll give you some perspective. At least we don’t have neo-nazi mobs killing foreigners with all but impunity.
Comment by aet75 — Tue, Dec 18th, 2007 @ 8:44 pm
MattW - Finns love to welcome tourists in their own understated way. You’ll have fun. People here are not racist anymore than people in the U.K are.
Comment by Andy Campbell — Tue, Dec 18th, 2007 @ 11:42 pm
MattW, tourists are treated well because Finns know that tourists won’t be here for the longterm. It becomes a problem if you decide to become a Finnish citizen, in which case, the hostility will become ever more obvious. If you work, you will get accused of stealing Finnish jobs, and if you don’t, you will be accused of prying on the welfare system.
aet75, I agree, Russia is by far one of the worst cases when it comes to racism. They show their racism in more ways than words. But Finland is perhaps one of the more racist countries in westernised Europe. There is definitely a strong feeling of intolerance here which you won’t find as strongly as in other countries. Just because Finns are quiet about it, doesn’t really excuse what the majority, from my experience in this country, think.
Comment by Jack — Wed, Dec 19th, 2007 @ 2:42 am
Hey again… I would maybe like to add that I somewhat understand that people would be afraid of foreign people wanting jobs…just like here in the states. You have all of the jobs that leave the country…for one reason or the other and yet you have an influx of people from other nations that are looking for work and new opportunities, that they did not have before. The world economy is becoming more competitive every day. You can not really blame some one who LEGALLY comes to a new place and LEGALLY applies for work. And on the other hand…to restate the point I made before…people will be afraid of change. Whether you are Finnish, American or any other nationality…it does get kind of scary when you have all inds of people wanting what you have. How long has it been now, since the Finnish economy rebounded from the depression they had…when the Soviet Union crumbled? Lots of people will be afraid to think that they or their childrens’ future might not be as sound as they are becoming accustomed to.
Comment by MattW — Wed, Dec 19th, 2007 @ 8:45 am
I know one guy who moved here in the 80’s and he was able to get to know the secret policeman the Finnish government had trailing him around by face. The guy said that he started waving at him. Times have changed but things could still use some improvement.
Comment by Sirkuspelle — Wed, Dec 19th, 2007 @ 3:50 pm
Andy, you’re wrong. Foreigners are treated with far greater equality in the UK when it comes to employment. In Finland it’s far harder for a foreigner to get a job, especially if your skin is not black. Andy, are you working in Finland?
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, Dec 19th, 2007 @ 5:48 pm
In Finland the unemployment rate amongst foreigners is THREE times higher than the general unemployment rate. This stark statistic says all that needs to be said about the intensity of racism that characterises life for foreigners in Finland.
Contrast that with the UK. In the last 5 years three quarters of all new jobs created in Britain have been taken up by immigrants. It would never happen in Finland.
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, Dec 19th, 2007 @ 6:23 pm
Yes I’ve heard that immigrants are happy to move to the U.K to live and work. The English language is easy enough to learn, there are already established foreign communities so there is an element of support from fellow countrymen, salaries are pretty high etc. however this doesn’t mean that U.K society is less racist than Finnish society. It simply points to how easy it is to access the labor market for immigrants into the U.K.
Finland is probably the hardest labor market to penetrate for an immigrant who doesn’t speak Finnish. For those immigrants that do speak Finnish then they have equal opportunities.
I don’t work here but I have my own business. We are an equal opportunities employer, employing one Iranian guy, 2 Russian guys and 3 Finnish guys. I can understand how difficult it is for foreigners to find work if their Finnish skills are not up to it but then I know of the excellent work colleges like Adulta do in order to train immigrants in the Finnish language and get them working.
What I would say though is that it is nearly impossible to get a job in Finland that matches your qualifications and experience in your home country. But this normal - how many Indian doctors are driving taxis in New York for example - answer = lots. Also in Finland there are a lot of clever people who have good paper qualifications and English language skills at native-speaker level who care looking for work and who I’m sure can work well.
If anyone is racist towards me or if I experience racism towards others then that person who is being racist will get a load of abuse from me. And if someone is seriously prejudiced against then the law is there to protect them. I think the younger generation in Finland are more multi-culturally aware and over time things change. Even in England where I grew up we hardly ever saw black or Asian people - when we did I think as kids we found them to be interesting and it seemed normal to take an interest in their culture. The same thing is happening here. And eventually we will just see them as part of ‘us’ and an equal part ‘our society’. It takes time but it will happen because Finland is a fair country and plays by the rules.
Comment by Andy Campbell — Wed, Dec 19th, 2007 @ 8:25 pm
Finland is a big country in terms of its geography, but the population is only small. Andy, three questions. First, could you ever forsee a situation where two thirds of any new jobs created in Finland in the future might be taken up by foreigners? Second, why is it necessary for foreigners living in Finland to know Finnish to do basic jobs such as cleaning? In other countries this is not a requirement to do similar work. As a British national surely you know this to be the case? Third, how do your Finnish workers interact with your Russian employees. I have no doubt that they will be polite, at least in your presence. Do they ever go out for a drink with their Finnish co-workers?
Comment by Anonymous — Sat, Dec 22nd, 2007 @ 11:39 am
First is easy, the moment you see 480 000 jobs created.
Second - I really don’t see how a nation where it used to be that the ruling class and the commoners spoke a different language would wish to go back into a similar situation after 100 years of suffrage.
Third - haven’t you heard that vodka is the universal language
Comment by Hank W. — Sat, Dec 22nd, 2007 @ 7:04 pm
@ 56,57 & all the rest of you who do not feel like you are worshipped as demigods. I’m really sorry you are not. Maybe you should have moved to somewhere where you don’t have to learn the native manners nor native language and you are given the management jobs - surely there must be still colonies somewhere you could have gone rule? Then you can start bringing in cheap indentured labor to work on your plantations. I just wonder who gave you the right to come here and start calling us racists, are we a League of Nations Mandate?
And Jack, I am so sorry you have been deprived of the privilege to serve in the army. See now the Finns are not given much an option. So they have to serve to defend the nation. How about giving some respect instad of calling people racists - these people owe *you* nothing - you are free to do whatever you please while they are sacrificing their liberties. And why would they have a need to sacrifice their liberties for some whiner like you who has no respect for what they are doing? Heck, did your arse turn gilt overnight or did you have to work hard to get it to shine?
When you get fed up with not being able to rule the wicked natives and seek another river to go up, I would however need to warn against moving to Sweden, in my understanding they have now banned speaking other languages than Swedish in county jobs Enköping as well as in Uppsala, quite the antiracists they are. It might also be a good idea to watch how you move in the public transport in the UK, police are allowed to shoot funny foreigners there without impunity. But on the other hand much more chances of importing cheap labor and exploiting them as they don’t speak the language and are happy to work for a hot meal and live in squalor.
But alas, Finland is such a horrible place. Such a wicked system requiring all workers’ conditions to be equal, can’t but watch all the big multinational companies establish their factories to lands where belonging to an union is a death sentence. And such a stubborn people on top. Really, my humblest apologies.
Comment by Hank W. — Sat, Dec 22nd, 2007 @ 7:17 pm
Just got back from the USA. In Boston Logan airport and London Heathrow airport, the airport was FULL of foreigners and people of ethnic minorities working there as officials, ticket clerks, cleaners, security people, service people, shopkeepers, etc. When I got back to Finland, there was an almost 100% ethnically pure Finnish workforce in the airport.
Comment by Sirkuspelle — Wed, Jan 2nd, 2008 @ 4:55 pm