Hmmm… just wonder which chapter of the criminal code has “crimes against human dignity”.

And yes, maybe a small article on the exhibit would’ve been in the HS culture section, but now because of the filed complaint, the exhibit is nationwide news.

Well, a naked little kid certainly is not porn. There are those pictures in just about every Finnish family album.

What happed to National geographic? They had better ones.

Phil, I can’t believe you posted the picture. While I agree that it isn’t porn, it is definitely NOT WORK SAFE and totally irresponsible to post. I set up my RSS feeds in Outlook just so I could safely read your posts at work and this pops up on my 22 inch monitor in a cubicle with halfwalls and 300 possible people learing over. Not cool, dude.

I love your site and am all for freedom of expression, but use some common sense. I now have to block your site from my entire workplace (Net Admin). I don’t know who else was reading, but now 10K of them won’t get the chance.
Jeff from Chicago

Dead Ducks are work safe
http://art.childrenincinema.com/works/images/cia4-4.jpg
wonder what she uses for camera.

“I love your site and am all for freedom of expression, but use some common sense. I now have to block your site from my entire workplace (Net Admin).” – Jeff

This should have read:

“I love your site and am all for freedom of expression, but use some common sense. I now have to block your site from my entire workplace (Totally Repressed and Unable to Reason).”

Jeff’s post should have read:

“I love your site and am all for freedom of expression, but use some common sense. I now have to block your site from my entire workplace (Totally Repressed and Unable to Reason).”

WTF WTF? DOUBLE DOUBLE POSTING POSTING.

“I love your site and am all for freedom of expression, but use some common sense.”

Get some common sense and apply for a new job with a less prudish employer. By chance, are you in America?

You can get whole magazines of this stuff in kiosks all over Germany. No sex depicted though. I guess my main reservation is that the children are too young to give their consent.

“By chance, are you in America?” – Kristian

Jeff in Chicago is in Chicago, which I think is still in America.

Maybe the dude works at the Coalition for the American Family or something where they like their porn enjoyed by priests and ministers and behind paper bags. Ah, the Midwest. Flyover country.

Jeff.stuff it! you dont like it, pluck out your eyes. I think your the one that needs to use common sense and not allow all those people to view your choice of blogs. jeff. stuff it with a hot tamali

It reads, “Jeff from Chicago.” Doesn’t mean he’s actually there. But given his comments, apparently he is.

Chicago—violence, shootings…but thankfully no naked children playing in water fountains like they do in Europe during the summertime.

Manneken Pis is a Brussels landmark. It is a small bronze fountain sculpture depicting a naked little boy urinating into the fountain’s basin. Similar statues can be found in the Belgian cities of Geraardsbergen, Hasselt, Gent and in the North French village of Broxeele. In many countries, replicas in brass or fiberglass are commonplace swimming- or garden-pool decorations.In September 2002 a Belgian waffle-maker in Florida experienced first-hand the cultural gap between Europe and the United States when he set up a replica in front of his waffle stand in the Fashion Square Mall in Orlando, Florida. The Belgian owner recalled the legend as ‘the boy who saved Brussels from fire by extinguishing it with his urine’. Florida’s shocked shoppers made a formal complaint. Mall officials said that the waffle-shop owner Assayag did not follow procedures when he put up the statue and was in violation of his lease.

Who the hell has the balls to shoot naked children? I’m scared just catching a glimpse… feel like there’s an army of raving parents marching down the street ready to hang me.

Better keep at least 100km distance between myself and Tennis Palace just to be safe. Though that’s always been my policy concerning kids to begin with.

And while we’re on the subject: how about covering your kid up next time when going swimming? Like the beach wasn’t uncomfortable situation enough without naked children running around and their parents scrutinizing your each step. Thank you.

“wonder what she uses for camera.” -Hank

I’m thinking some nostalgic medium/large format camera.

“Get some common sense and apply for a new job with a less prudish employer. By chance, are you in America?”

We’re in American where we take a hard line against sexual harassment in the workplace. I’m saying that this pic falls in that description. To us a prudish employer means harassment is not allowed like it is in Finland.

maksalaatikko—you are ill. Take a breather

I don’t get how anyone would see anything sexual in it in the first place.
Perhaps it’s just an example that there are differences in attitudes between different societies still, despite the increasing effect of globalisation.

Ill??? My wife was sexually harassed several times at her place of employment in Finland and nothing was ever done about it. In the US the guy would have been fired on the first offense.

Her mother was just forced to quit a job in Turku because the owner of the company was sexually harassing her. She has no realistic recourse.

I saw and heard about countless sexual harassment stories when I lived in Finland. None of which would have been tolerated in the states.

This goes for racism at work also.

ERROR IN POST 16: I meant to say “this pic DOES NOT fall into that description.” Now I see why you were saying I’m ill.

Well maksalaatikko, Finland is a friendly place. The ladies are very lucky.

Clinton Fracks the hired help. So why do we care here?

“I saw and heard about countless sexual harassment stories when I lived in Finland. None of which would have been tolerated in the states.”

I have, too, which I thought was rather strange given how incredibly, how shall I say this, timid most Finnish guys were when it came to even making eye contact with the female of the species. It is still a mystery to me how Finns actually meet and mate as the hangover eventually comes. But…after a few drunken office parties I could see how this sort of thing gets a bit out of hand.

Phil, I am uncomfortable with having that picture here. Perhaps you should have put a link to it.

I often open this website at work and at home…

I don’t get how anyone would see anything sexual in it in the first place.

It’s the American puritanical tradition. Nudity equates sex equates sin.

@15 Yeah, it says somewhere she has a 8×10 and it seems she’s gone into wet-plate shooting. If I did my own lab work I might try. Got an old plate camera stashed somewhere, but I’m more into learning with 120 rollfilm. Reminds me of which I’d need to go collect about a dozen films from the shop. Had an 50′s Agiflex II on its first run so I want to see if its working how and compare with the shots I took with my Yashica twin.

There were a documentary about her (the photographer) just some weeks ago in YLE, I guess it was TEEMA. Interesting, very devoted artist.

“wonder what she uses for camera.” -Hank
She used a pinhole-box -camera obscura- in many of her works.

No one should have to suffer sexual or any other harrastment at work. Raising voice usually helps, “What the f*** are you doing?” puts a plug in most cases.
Nationalities has nothing to do with that, it happens equally in US and in Finland, it doesn’t has to be tolerated in either side of the pond. In fact, union lawyers in finland would love to get one harrassing boss in their claws once in a while.

Smells like guerilla marketing to me.
Investigation could be put up by support group of Sally, which opens an debate on media and works perfectly as an advertisement.

#22 “But…after a few drunken office parties I could see how this sort of thing gets a bit out of hand.”

Whatever happens in pikkujoulu cannot be considered sexual harassment!!

I always think Finland is not part of Europe. Too prudish and backward in terms of nudity etc. Finland is too much americanized in that sense. It’s not surprising that some Finns behave exactly as conservative americans. They have seen too much Hollywood movies I guess.

These moral debates concerning artistic sensitivities go beyond simple national or cultural limits. It’s not that Finnish people are taking an exception to this exhibition but rather that some individuals who are not comfortable with the photographic imagery being displayed are complaining and this has happened in every country the artist has exhibited in.
It happens with art that it can polarise opinion – the case in London with the statue in Trafalgar Sq called “Alison Lapper Pregnant” is a good example of this. Some people hated it some loved it – nothing to do with nationality.
Not only art polarises. Sometimes existant cultural traditions can polarise like bullfighting or fox hunting. Bullfighting in Spain is loathed by some Spanish and loved by others and foreigners a like. We can’t draw the conclusion that Spain and the Spanish love bullfighting. We might say that bullfighting remains popular in some parts of Spain but that’s about as accurate as we can be.
My personal view of the exhibit is that it is very interesting and doesn’t shock for the sake of it. The exhibit which is not culturally bound or defined by language allows people of all nationalities to express their opinion. I like that about photography.

I heard about a guy who tied a dog up in an art gallery and let it die of thirst and starvation and called it art. (In Finland you get a 35 EUR fine for cruelty to animals or something like that, while one Nokia boss got 70,000 for speeding on his Harley)

Another guy killed a cat and filmed it and called it art.

There was one play done in Finland, where the actors threw horse poop at the audience – that was also art.

In Helsinki, there was an exhibit somewhere where there was urine, feces, blood and semen in blenders that turned on randomly. That was also considered art. The whole hall had an appreciable smell in it.

I suppose a naked little girl made to look dead who is hanging from a tree is equally so art.

In New York there was a Madonna with poop and blood smeared on it – that was also called art. Mayor Giuliani didn’t think so, though, and cordially invited the artist to leave.

I tend to go for a more classical style myself, like Monet, Van Gogh, Rubens, etc who depict things that most people find beautiful. Maybe I am just old fashioned.

Why do you think that little girl looks dead?

#31. I agree that you are too oldfashioned. Your taste is staggered in the 17th or 19th century. I agree with other forms of art you mentioned except the dog thing. The artist might call it an art and I completely agree with it, but in the same time he is doing a very cruel thing. If I were in the scene, I am sure that I have accused him about it. Arts or not that is not the point. The point is what he is doing cruelty to the dog. Other cases you mentioned are matter of taste or distaste. The artist did nothing wrong to the subjects of their arts. If the audience doesn’t like horse poop, they can leave the place at their own will. The dog can’t leave. That’s the difference.

@31 You forgot the Italian guy who canned his poop and sold it for millions… I wish I was an artist

I saw and heard about countless sexual harassment stories when I lived in Finland. None of which would have been tolerated in the states.

When my wife was 17, working at a prestigious importing company in Espoo, one of the managers there said to her ” My wife is gone for the weekend, do you want to come over for sauna?”.

35. Come on, don’t leave us hanging. So, did she?

These moral debates concerning artistic sensitivities go beyond simple national or cultural limits.

Well, I’d say *any* moral debates on the right/wrong.

Like for example in the USA theres an “open container law” prohibiting alcohol inside a motor vehicle in most states complying to a Federal standards, some 7 states allowing passengers and Mississippi even the driver can swig if he stays below the limit.

In Finland, the “Public Order Act” specifically *excludes* motor vehichles from the ban on “drinking in a public built-up area” – like in Mississippi the driver has to stay under the limit.

So in Finland to avoid a citation you need to go inside your car to take a swig. Now try to explain the logic in that to a person used to “open container” laws

@27 Yeah, thats what I was thinking as well. If it was – definitely worked. If it wasn’t… still worked.

Unit

So what happened in the Sauna. I am close to getting mine going again, and if there is hanky panky to be had, well……

@29 And you name the other nations in Europe that have sitting naked in a hot room with the family as a national pastime? OK, so maybe the Germans got nudist camps and Swedish girls toss their bikini tops the second the sun comes out but Finns being prudish about nudity? Wrong end of the spectrum I’d say.

hfb: “…how incredibly, how shall I say this, timid most Finnish guys were when it came to even making eye contact with the female of the species.”

Not me. I’m just waiting for your husband to join some doomsday cult, so that you and I can finally be together

Good post Phil, and nice that you fixed the picture through a link now.

42, yeah cause that was so sexy.

“Nationalities has nothing to do with that, it happens equally in US and in Finland, it doesn’t has to be tolerated in either side of the pond. In fact, union lawyers in finland would love to get one harrassing boss in their claws once in a while.”

Sure, sure. Maybe in the 70s it happened equally in the US and Finland but not nowadays. (Probably not then either)

Winter – No hanky panky in the sauna! Unless you take a wimpy American sauna with no real steam, it works much better in your mind than in real life. That’s what hot tubs are for. They may not be as cleansing and soothing as a sauna because of the chemicals in the water, but they are much more amorous. I’d recommend making your move in the shower after the sauna.

blah, blah timid most Finnish guys were when it came to even making eye contact with the female of the species blah blah

Different sexes don’t make even eye contact work? Hah, hah, you comedian. No, just a minute, you must be one of those that we call noita (to put it mildly). Yeah, now I understand.

Anon – Well, except when drunk, yes. When drunk you can’t seem to beat them off with a stick. I considered drawing a picture once for a guy but I was fortunately saved before it came to that. I never had a problem with drunk Finnish women sitting at my table whenever my friends or husband went to buy drinks at the bar but maybe I wasn’t going to the right pubs.

And Kristian – If he does, well, maybe I’ll move closer to my family and swear off Finns for a while.

Come on, don’t leave us hanging. So, did she?

As beautiful young blond Finnish girl, she declined to go sauna with the forty-something, saggy, sleazy boss. Me, I wanted to pound his skull in.

No hanky panky in the sauna!

I second this notion, it’s seriously overrated.

One acquaintance of mine told of her time in London. When the blokes there heard that women go to sauna together naked they responded: KINKY

@45 Ah, so you know her too?

hfb: “And Kristian – If he does, well, maybe I’ll move closer to my family and swear off Finns for a while.”

That’s good, because I’m actually Estonian.

I’ve gotten a few coworkers of mine into the “real” Finnish sauna. Real except for the naked part. The rich one of the group now has three different saunas with wood burning stoves at different properties he owns.

So far they have learned how to take plenty of steam and not wimp out but they haven’t learned how to take off their swimming trunks and sit in a room together naked. They never will.

Of course I make sure to point out most every time we are in the sauna that it’s not a real sauna because we are not naked. Usually that comment is met with nervous laughter.

By the way, I’ve got a new poll idea for Phil for sauna owners.

Poll: When you are in your sauna with no guests present, do you place a towel on the bench before you sit down or do you “season” the bench?

Answer 1:Use towel
Answer 2:Season bench with ass juice

It’s disgusting but I know it’s been done and I bet more often than people admit. Maybe people will be honest with their answers on the internets.

Ahem…besides towel, there is also this specifically designed plastic thing to insulate everyone’s prettier side from the bench. I prefer to call it ‘persetti’

For the records, I have a dedicated spot in my sauna and I use nothing in between. Forehead or bottom, it is the same sweat afterall.

# 52

Do you also get kuppa, tippuri and satiaiset from the forehead juice? I always sit on a towel if it isnt my sauna. The bacterium die in sauna quite fast but if you don’t feel lucky then use a towel to sit on.

Hank, you bitch. Just you wait mister, yessirree….:)

Yes, you fight. Is it lovely for your baby?

jep

jep.valkyrie.

hair thin

We fired what we had and Russians 10 times of that.

Anyway, way!

jep, sorry slow

yes, not me.

merry

Tim73 – how is the hangover?

#29 “I always think Finland is not part of Europe. Too prudish and backward in terms of nudity etc. Finland is too much americanized in that sense.”

Oh, come on! Finns are way more relaxed about nudity than Americans.

You might not see the kind of full nudity on public beaches that you get in Denmark or Germany, for instance, and female toplessness is less frequent than in most parts of Europe, but when it happens it is mostly ignored. Anyone doing so in the United States risks arrest (unless it happens to be a designated nude beach).

A few years ago I read a news item according to which a law had been passed giving a convoluted definition to the word “buttocks” as a guideline for police enforcing public decency laws at beaches and swimming pools.

In a presidential election back in the 1980s I remember seeing part of the election video of Harri Holkeri – the conservative candidate – in which the final shot was Holkeri himself doing a swan dive from the pier of his summer cottage into the lake – butt cheeks there for all to see. Could you imagine Bush doing something like that? (I apologise for inflicting that mental image on you all.)

Also, the glimpse of a crotch, butt-crack, or female nipple does not automatically consign a film into a restricted category, nor are such images pixelated on Finnish TV.

I know of a case a few years back when a Finnish exchange student in the United States caused a major scandal at the high school that she attended that year when she gave the obligatory presentation of “my life in my home country”. The slide show that she gave included a picture of her family in the sauna: she never imagined that something that is – literally – good clean family fun could be such a taboo in the USA. I also know of cases in which simply taking family pictures involving skinny-dipping or bathing have caused American photo-labs to alert the police.

Here it is – I found the “buttocks” definition on the ordnance books in Bay County, Florida. It boggles the mind that someone apparently was paid to come up with this kind of prose to help police determine whether or not a bathing suit provided sufficient coverage:

“Buttocks: The area at the rear of the human body (sometimes referred to as the glutaeus maximus) which lies between two imaginary lines running parallel to the ground when a person is standing, the first or top of such line being one-half inch below the top of the vertical cleavage of the nates (i.e., the prominence formed by the muscles running from the back of the hip to the back of the leg) and the second or bottom line being one-half inch above the lowest point of the curvature of the fleshy protuberance (sometimes referred to as the gluteal fold), and between two imaginary lines, one on each side of the body (the ‘outside lines’), which outside lines are perpendicular to the ground and to the horizontal lines described above and which perpendicular outside lines pass through the outermost point(s) at which each nate meets the outer side of each leg. Notwithstanding the above, buttocks shall not include the leg, the hamstring muscle below the gluteal fold, the tensor fasciae latae muscle or any of the above-described portion of the human body that is between either the left inside perpendicular line and the left outside perpendicular line or the right inside perpendicular line and the right outside perpendicular line. For the purpose of the previous sentence the left inside perpendicular line shall be an imaginary line on the left side of the anus that is perpendicular to the ground and to the horizontal lines described above and that is one-third the distance from the anus to the left outside line, and the right inside perpendicular line shall be an imaginary line on the right side of the anus that is perpendicular to the ground and to the horizontal lines described above and that is one-third of the distance from the anus to the right outside line. (The above description can generally be described as covering one-third of the buttocks centered over the cleavage for the length of the cleavage.)”
http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node=buttocks

“Do you also get kuppa, tippuri and satiaiset from the forehead juice?”

At least you can get the first two also by kissing and your mouth is approximately at the same distance from forehead as your buttskin is from…err…never mind.

To be honest, only cases I have heard about someone catching a social disease only by attending a public sauna are told by wives whose husbands have been recently to Tallinn or Amsterdam with the ‘boys’ I think there is much bigger risk of getting some fungus under your toenail.

What I wrote at #52 applies at home. In public sauna it is nice to have some sort of piece of cloth under your butt. Not specifically for hygienical reasons, but for the feeling of typical bathroom ceramics compared to the wooden bench back home.

#65, I completley agree with you on the fact that Finland is more liberal than the US. But here I see again the same problem. Finns always compare their country to the US and feel superior! Finns feel superior for criminality, liberal attitude etc. compared to the US. This simply means that Finland is really americanized country and the people here see only one foreign country, the US! But dudes, there are more countries on this planet. Why don’t you compare to other better european countries?

Compare the criminality and liberal attitude to other central European countries and realize how much Finland is backward in that sense.

#40, You alreday named Sweden and Germany. I will add other countries like France, Denmark, Norway, Belgium, Netherlands… Enough?
I am sure only Finland will makes a hustle bustle with Sally Mann’s exhibition.

I don’t think so European, there are so called flower-hatted aunties in all of those countries as well. I am sure in Sweden, some of them would write to Svenska Dagbladet or Expressen to have a complain – let’s not forget these complaints were reported by Iltalehti afterall! Hardly the world’s most liberal paper.

Just because a country is overall fairly liberal in these matters, does not mean it extends to every single last citizen.

I don’t think Finns always compare against USA. Probably just as often, if not more, we look to our western neighbour. And perhaps also to Russia (admittedly perhaps also as it sometimes gives the feel-good superiority feeling to an extent). However, naturally comparisons are often made to USA too – it is afterall one of the most prominent countries in the world. On this blog though, comparisons are perhaps most often directed towards the USA. But then, when you look at the blog’s subtitle, I think that’s in some ways the idea!

#65 “Finns always compare their country to the US and feel superior!”

That certainly would be taking the easy way out, but actually you were the one who made the comparison this time!

My point is that the cultural gap between Finland and the United States is much greater than any that might exist between Finland and other European countries.

“This simply means that Finland is really americanized country…”

That worn out cliché is usually parroted by people with little knowledge of either place.

#69 “I am sure only Finland will makes [sic] a hustle bustle with Sally Mann’s exhibition.”

“Finland” has not made a “hustle and bustle” about the exhibition. Some individual has filed a complaint with the police, and as public servants, the police have an obligation to investigate it.

As I understand it, nobody involved with the Mann exhibition is terribly worried about any legal ramifications: there has been no suggestion that it should not continue until the time that it is scheduled to close. I would be extremely surprised if any prosecutor took the case to court.

This reminds me of when the movie “The Last Temptation of Christ” first came to Finland, and a Member of Parliament representing the Christian League tried unsuccessfully to have it banned as blasphemous.

#31 “There was one play done in Finland, where the actors threw horse poop at the audience – that was also art.”

If you’re referring to the “Jumalanteatteri” incident at a theatre seminar in Oulu in the mid-80s, the excrement thrown at the audience was of the human variety, and the guys who did it were arrested, tried, and I believe convicted.

#33 “If the audience doesn’t like horse poop, they can leave the place at their own will.”

That would only apply if advance warning were involved – and this was not the case in the incident that I was referring to.

Who’s paying for all this horse shit? —or people shit, for that matter?

A picture of a hanged child is art only as long as nobody jacks off to it.

Hanged child? WTF?

Two things:

Only a woman can get away with shooting pictures of naked kids and not end up with her name plastered everywhere as a child molester. Men only need to look at a kid to practically end up shot dead on the spot.

As for whether Finland is more prudish than elsewhere: yes. In Germany, most spas and many public pools presume both sexes to go in naked and during the same opening hours. There are no segregated sessions. In Finland, they had to close the Yrjönkatu pool to get the shot for Spencer Tunnick and naturist societies have to rent a public pool for a whole afternoon to get to skinny dip there. Also, the nudist “beach” on Pihlajasaari actually is the ugliest, rockiest part of the island. In any civilized country (Germany again, but also most Black Sea countries), the whole island would be a nudist zone.

The only bit of nudity that is tolerated in Finland is within the privacy of your home or mökki. Everything else is pointlessly compartmented and segregated.

Kiddie porn is the best

DUDE WTF YOU SICKO

you have this picture on your website!! i hope you go to jail i am contacting the fbi if you don’t take it down emediently

79 Anonymous, you are an idiot.

Aside from not being able to spell the word “immediately” or using improper punctuation, you have no clue as to what constitutes child porn in this country. If you take the time to read the US code on the subject, you will find that naked pictures do NOT constitute porn. The child must either be posing in an alluring manner or have her legs spread. Many photo labs have been successfully sued by parents, after they called the cops (as you are threatening to do) for bathtub photos.

Do a little research before you run your ignorant mouth.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Child+Pornography

Child pornography is the visual representation of minors under the age of 18 engaged in sexual activity or the visual representation of minors engaging in lewd or erotic behavior designed to arouse the viewer’s sexual interest.

Child pornography may include actual or simulated sexual intercourse involving minors, deviant sexual acts, bestiality, masturbation, sado-masochistic abuse, or the exhibition of genitals in a sexually arousing fashion. In most instances, however, the mere visual depiction of a nude or partially nude minor does not rise to the level of child pornography. Thus, home movies, family pictures, and educational books depicting nude children in a realistic, non-erotic setting are protected by the Free Speech Clause of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution and do not constitute child pornography.