Is it silly to be proud of your country?
I find it quite silly when I heard people exclaim, “I’m proud to be an American!” or “I’m proud to be Finnish!” You haven’t done anything special, Jebus just randomly stuck you in the womb of some woman living between particular lines that were hand-drawn by some politicians and army generals after centuries of bloodbaths and wars.
Sure, Finns and Americans have a lot to be proud about. Take Finland for example - Finns are great athletes, Finns kicked Russian ass in wars, Finns survived in a cold climate, Finns make the best mobile phones in the world, etc..
Well how about the people of Malawi? The Malawians have the worst GDP per capita in the world, they have a life expectancy of 36.5 years, child mortality is 103/1,000, 14.2% of the population has HIV/AIDS, there’s an entire Wikipedia entry dedicated to “the Malawian food crisis“…not much to be proud of, eh?
So I guess if the Finns and Americans have good reasons to be proud, the Malawians have good reasons *not* to be proud. They should exclaim, “I’m NOT proud to be Malawian!” …Or maybe being proud to be from a particular country is just, silly?
Second-hand knowledge, but even in the 1970’s, my dad knew a coworker living in Finland - and he openly admitted, if the topic somehow came up “I’m german, and I’m ashamed of that fact” - referring to 3rd Reich.
So yes, the NOT being proud-thing happens.
(And of course we have the famous card sent to Conan “I hate finland too, keep up the good work”)
Comment by Z — Thu, Nov 29th, 2007 @ 3:06 pm
Aren’t American private individuals the biggest international givers of charity in the world—by a LOT?
Comment by Kristian — Thu, Nov 29th, 2007 @ 3:06 pm
I am sure many Malawians still feel ties to their traditions, culture and country. I am sure they support Malawi in sport matches.
National identity and nationalism are odd things though, I agree. There are many different degrees of nationalism. Are you not demonstrating American pride when you support, for instance, the American ice hockey team? I am proud to be Finnish, but not to the extent that it pervades every decision I make or that I will be placing Finnish flags all over the back of my car. Nationalism can be positive as a binding force for a country. It is dangerous though when it is misused and played upon by populists of the Perussuomalaiset variety. I think because of such uses, sometimes people think it is not “the right thing” to demonstrate any pride vocally in your country for fear of being associated with right-wing extremists.
Comment by JG — Thu, Nov 29th, 2007 @ 3:11 pm
It surely depends how far you go with that ideology.
http://www.hack1966.com/images/am_flag_truck.jpg
http://driverjobnetwork.com/images/365_Flag_Truck.JPG
http://www.hyperbear.com/blogpics/hummer-02.jpg
http://tattoo.about.com/library/graphics/boeeagle.jpg
Comment by me — Thu, Nov 29th, 2007 @ 3:28 pm
http://www.hyperbear.com/blogpics/hummer-02.jpg
Winter will be angry when he sees that you have been posting pictures of his car on here!
Comment by JG — Thu, Nov 29th, 2007 @ 3:31 pm
so i’m half finnish and half american and proud. but it’s hard to say whether i’m proud to be half-both or half-either. what i find is that i’m proud of the countries, and what the countries have done, more than i’m proud of the fact that i’m american, finnish or a mix.
and before the flamers start in, i should say that i’m not proud of everything the countries have done by a long shot.
i’m not proud of the war in iraq, just as i’m not proud of the high suicide or alcoholism rates.
but i’m proud of the u.s. for the most open and welcoming society for immigrants in the world. and for a culture that support and rewards entrepreneurship and voices for change. there are other things as well.
and i’m proud of finland for cell phones, ruisleipä, peace and quiet and many other things.
in short, i think it’s easier and more logical to be proud of your country than it is to be proud that you are a citizen of that country.
Comment by halffinn — Thu, Nov 29th, 2007 @ 3:34 pm
I wanted to put photos of some cars painted in the Finnish flag theme. I did not find any. Then again I have never seen one either.
Comment by me — Thu, Nov 29th, 2007 @ 3:39 pm
I am not angry about the car, H2, but where it sits… In a CITCO gas station. (Owned by Hugo Chavez).
I am not proud of fixing europe and how germany turned out.
I am not proud of Italy either.
And my Fav. I am not proud of the Europeans, path for Darfur. Well, they are all dead, so what path is left.
Comment by winter, "Yea, Proton Power, now in remission" — Thu, Nov 29th, 2007 @ 3:41 pm
I’m sure many Malawians are very proud, and they probably have every reason to be. I don’t know anything about Malawi, so I’m just making this up, but I can imagine them having interesting cuisine, traditional architecture, clothing, art, all kinds of things they could be very proud of.
This whole issue of being proud of your country has much to do with the angle you’re looking at it. I’m sure everyone agrees that hardcore nationalism is a very bad thing, and the people supporting it are usually just stupid and quite sad really, they don’t have anything else in their lives to be proud of than some abstract concept of nationality. But on the other hand, my family has lived on this piece of land called Finland for centuries. I have a great grandfather who was a farmer in Karelian isthmus, I can track that family line back to 17th century. I have other forefathers who lived in Häme in various professions. That kinda gives a sense of belonging, which I think is very important for humans in some form or another.
I’m not a flag-waving guy. I’m not that concerned of my nationality in general. I can easily imagine living the rest of my life in some other country than Finland. But knowing my roots, my heritage that is intertwined to the destinies of other people in this small, cold northern country, is like a steady bedrock on which is easy to build.
Comment by Passer-by — Thu, Nov 29th, 2007 @ 3:42 pm
“but i’m proud of the u.s. for the most open and welcoming society for immigrants in the world.”
I’m quite sure that applies for some states only. Definitely not all of them states and cities and jerkwater small towns. Hicks tend to disappoint you with their behaviour everywhere, even in Finland. Suprisingly the juntti population is also the least educated and inbred population, you rarely meet them in the “big” cities of Finland.
Comment by me — Thu, Nov 29th, 2007 @ 3:47 pm
Maybe it is a lack of pride that has Malawi in the situation it finds itself. Those who can best help the country are probably those most able to flee.
It is probably also pride that draws people back to their homeland when it is safe for them to do so. (Will the Somalis ever leave Finland? What is their reason to stay? What is their reason not to go back?)
Isn’t part of this pride related to work and their contribution to their society?
Take the show ‘Dirty Jobs’. the show highlights the worst jobs in America, yet you never see anyone who hates their job on the show. They are all proud about what they are doing, so much so, that they are excited to get on TV and show (confirm) to the rest of us their job (why their job sucks and that we would never do it). Yet, this society would not function without their efforts. It is good to have pride when doing jobs like that, because a paycheck alone is not enough.
Comment by Fred Fry — Thu, Nov 29th, 2007 @ 3:53 pm
When the Finnish nation was first produced by the elite, back in the latter part of the 19th century, Finland was a dirt-poor country which just had lost about 100 000 citizens to a famine. “On Suomi köyhä ja siksi jää” said Runeberg while ordering a drink. And yet the myth of an united nation lived on and later on produced a country which is one of the best in the world in many respects. Hopefully the Malawians can do the same.
… and whe we’re at it, let’s list a few “bests” (or almost) so that halffinn doesn’t have to be proud just of ruisleipä, hmmm: freedom of the press, economical competitiveness, happiness, schools, innovation, corruption, ecological sustainability, plywood production and so on.
By the way, the USA is very far from being very open to immigrants or eager to change. But yes, the entrepreneurship thing is true, I guess.
Comment by Pölhö-Pekka — Thu, Nov 29th, 2007 @ 3:57 pm
“the USA is very far from being very open to immigrants”
Not true. The US is probably the most welcoming place on Earth…if you wear a baseball cap and ‘act Americun.’ That means, no weird foreign behavior is tolerated. And don’t forget to sweep the lawn clippings on the sidewalk, in front of the door. Otherwise, all is ok.
Only Holland is more accepting, IMO.
Comment by Kristian — Thu, Nov 29th, 2007 @ 4:03 pm
# 12
Was that sarcasm?
Comment by me — Thu, Nov 29th, 2007 @ 4:11 pm
Sarcasm? No, more like humor. America is probably the most welcoming place for immigrants. I can’t think of any other place that matches it.
Comment by Kristian — Thu, Nov 29th, 2007 @ 4:14 pm
Well, Kristian, to my surprise I tend to agree with you, although there are exceptions. I was talking about the official policy.
Comment by Pölhö-Pekka — Thu, Nov 29th, 2007 @ 4:36 pm
You bet I’m proud to be Australian and especially when it comes to the sporting world. Also I’m proud of the land and our acceptance of foreigners. Much like the US, Australia is a land that takes people from all over the world. Some adjust better than others but all are welcome to come. Also surviving Australia’s hard and difficult history is something many of us are proud of.
Comment by Punter — Thu, Nov 29th, 2007 @ 4:43 pm
I’m kinda proud of Finland’s new PISA score:
http://www.oecd.org/document/60/0,3343,en_2649_201185_39700732_1_1_1_1,00.html
Comment by Pave — Thu, Nov 29th, 2007 @ 4:52 pm
#17- Yeah, we’ve got some smart 15 y.o’s in Finland.
Comment by Punter — Thu, Nov 29th, 2007 @ 4:57 pm
“By the way, the USA is very far from being very open to immigrants or eager to change. But yes, the entrepreneurship thing is true, I guess.”
Mpls, USA. Largest Somali immigrant population in the USA. Nearly %100 employed and well respected by the natives as hardworking and honest.
Anywhere, Finland Relatively large Somali population. Extremely high unemployment, hated by the natives and thought of as lazy and dishonest.
Is the problem the immigrant or the native? Methinks its the native.
Comment by maaksalaatikko — Thu, Nov 29th, 2007 @ 5:00 pm
“I was talking about the official policy.”
- Actually, I think there are two issues here, policy and Operations.
- As for policy, it is hard to get into the US to stay, simply because the damand is much greater than the supply. It was recently in the news that applications for the whole year’s allotment of 150,000+ worker visas was received in just one day. This is a problem with Mexico as well, with 10-20% of all Mexicans living in the US, the only policy that would stem illegal immigration from Mexico would be a policy that permitted all of them to come her legally. (Really, where do you draw the line?)
- Then you have the operation of Immigration services for those here legally. I am a victim of that Government Agency (and Social Security as well) as I married a Finn and then brought her here. They are rude, incompetant, sloppy, and a downright nightmare to deal with. It cost you time and money much in excess of the stated fees. They make a mistake and it cost you more money. Really, the whole organization should be rebuilt.
As for policy, it might be easier to come to the US, if we can replicate the reasons/conditions why they are coming here in other countries. (I know, not exactly what you wanted to hear.)
Comment by Fred Fry — Thu, Nov 29th, 2007 @ 5:29 pm
“Suprisingly the juntti population is also the least educated and inbred population, you rarely meet them in the “big†cities of Finland.”
What exactly is surprising about this? No one with brains stays in some junttiville when there are real options in bigger cities.
Comment by m — Thu, Nov 29th, 2007 @ 5:47 pm
As for policy, it might be easier to come to the US, if we can replicate the reasons/conditions why they are coming here in other countries.
Well, we’d need a hollywood of our own for one and good English education and English-speaking society in general. Other than that … My guess is that more people in Turkey, Africa or the Near East would rather emigrate to the EU than the USA, basically because they’re likely to have friends or family here already, and it’s cheaper to get here. Asians again seem to like the USA (but I believe that more of them move to the EU), not to mention South Americans.
Well ok, it’s perhaps a bit easier to make the ends meet over there … or is it? I really don’t know.
Comment by Pölhö-Pekka — Thu, Nov 29th, 2007 @ 5:48 pm
For Asians, the US is easy. They are usually highly entrepreneurial, and don’t want to be encumbered by restrictive European socialist-style economies.
I agree that the Africans like Europe better though
Comment by Kristian — Thu, Nov 29th, 2007 @ 5:57 pm
sweep the lawn clippings”
Ah, I hate to say this, but… you must vacuum the lawn, clip all tall stuff, and present your results to the neighborhood “best lawn of the month” committee.
Yes, we do it Soviet style here. But then again the Hummer had better show up polished before they arrive.
Comment by winter, "Yea, Proton Power, now in remission" — Thu, Nov 29th, 2007 @ 6:06 pm
“Well ok, it’s perhaps a bit easier to make the ends meet over there … or is it? I really don’t know.”
you can always use more money, but it is easy to find work and at the moment pay is not bad for most people, thanks to low unemployment.
Funny you mention English. I had read an interesting article about the richest muslim in India. He was asked why he didn’t hire more muslims. He said he would, but the community did not place an importance on their children learning English, which he required of all employees and that was an indicator of a lack or other basics in the education. So maybe pushing/teaching English in the third world will help their situation. Look where all the call centers are located. I just talked to someone in the Phillippines. I never would have known had I not asked. (It was chatt, not phone.)
Comment by Fred Fry — Thu, Nov 29th, 2007 @ 6:44 pm
Funny, but I have never heard anybody say “I am proud to be Finnish”.
Comment by presso — Thu, Nov 29th, 2007 @ 7:00 pm
You haven’t done anything special, Jebus just randomly stuck you in the womb of some woman living between particular lines that were hand-drawn by some politicians and army generals after centuries of bloodbaths and wars.
Can you really be proud of anything if you think like that? You wouldn’t have achieved nearly as much stuff in life you were born mentally handicapped. So it was just luck.
Comment by Anonymous — Thu, Nov 29th, 2007 @ 7:33 pm
Hmmm… am I the only one here who actually personally knows a Malawian? Darn. Well, I think a lot of the nations there in Southern Africa are proud of their achievements, even the countries may be constructs of the colonial era. Independence and so forth… OK, so they might not be so fond of Kamuzu Banda as we’re not that flag-waving over U.K. Kekkonen let alone Paavo Väyrynen. But look up yourself two blogs I found by a quick browse:
“Proud to be Malawian striving to beat the odds.”
http://mangalisojere.blogspot.com/
especially
http://mangalisojere.blogspot.com/2006/09/northern-question.html
Now I can relate totally to what he writes, but should some muzungu come tell him to be ashamed?
Lets ask “A Malawian in Diaspora”
http://mmalawikutheba.blogspot.com/
And there in one post reads:
Being a proud malawiano i have decided i should start sounding local, chizungu cha chichewa chija, only time will tell ngati nditakwanitse. I would be a more proud malawian if I would be identified just by my accent,
Who are you or I to take their pride away from them?
And who is to take my pride from me?
Comment by Hank W. — Thu, Nov 29th, 2007 @ 8:01 pm
I definitely agree with Phil. I’m not exactly proud to be British but neither am I ashamed. Britain is such a heterogeneous place that it’s very hard to pin down what exactly I should be proud of.
I avoid people who are ‘proud to be (insert nationality here), they tend to have a fictionalized view of their own country that they refer to to make themselves feel good or important.
I’m proud of the things that I have achieved and ashamed or guilty when I mess up. That’s about it for me in terms of pride and I see people equally for their ability and open-mindedness rather than what nationality they are.
It’s a long road to understanding that people are people and how their mother’s treated them probably has a bigger effect on their personality than what country they grew up in.
I’m curious and like to learn new things and so I appreciate that I can learn new things by being in an unfamiliar country but hate to feel excluded which is how patriots make me feel. I guess patriots here would mean people who have a lot of pride in their country as opposed to those who have smaller amounts of pride born out of affiliation.
Comment by Andy Campbell — Thu, Nov 29th, 2007 @ 10:59 pm
The poorer the nation is, the prouder the people are and they show it too. You can also see that in poor suburbs, whether it is in Liverpool, Baltimore, Helsinki, Stockholm, Paris or Hamburg. They have this thing called “WE” and defend their “honor” against outsiders. It is a tribe thing, making hard living conditions a bit more livable.
You can see that in Russians and other East European people. They are behaving abroad like we did in the 60’s, 70’s 80’s towards rich Sweden and Swedish people. It is now Russians that throw more and more water in Sauna to show off.
Comment by tim73 — Fri, Nov 30th, 2007 @ 2:04 am
Timmy Timmy Timmy
where is my sniff test? Poor nations are prouder?
Gee, the USA is not poor, very very very very rich.
and proud of it.
Comment by winter “Yea, Proton Power, now in remission†— Fri, Nov 30th, 2007 @ 3:46 am
Muslims who immigrate to the U.S. also tend to be far less marginalized than in the EU. We don’t have Muslim ghettos with satellite tvs turned to Al-Jazeera. And within two or three generations, most Muslims have settled comfortably into middle class life, and are less militant and radicalized than in the EU.
Not to say life is perfect, but immigration is much more accepted here, and I think we just have more practice in helping to integrate newcomers.
Comment by AmeriikanEnkeli — Fri, Nov 30th, 2007 @ 8:32 am
#30- That’s a great point and a very good example.
Comment by Punter — Fri, Nov 30th, 2007 @ 9:08 am
@29 The most stars and stripes you see flying is in a trailer park?
Then again is France poor? As French are about the proudest people I know - then again of their… hrm… culture and language, not necessarily of the current state of the country. Same as with Russians, and Italians who have a cultural heritage to be proud of. Even Germans will bring up Schiller and Göthe.
So I guess Americans and British don’t have any culture even, if they are are so ashamed of their nations. What does that leave you with then - pitiful people only rotating their lives around money? Just looking at their own bellybutton without a sense of community? Global Citizens of Egoistan? So why haven’t they switched over to the metric system then yet? Why do the bananas come in pounds at the market in the UK? It is odd as there would be some things to applaud. Millions of schoolkids around the world curse these nations for having to learn their language, we sell quite a lot of British and American literature even here. And like the rest of the world we appreciate the “entertainment culture”.
Comment by Hank W. — Fri, Nov 30th, 2007 @ 9:42 am
@28 If you look at the Greek city-states around the dawn of democracy, you couldn’t run a city-state without a feeling of “us”. If everybody would be just looking at their own bellybutton, next thing you know there’d be a few Persians kicking your butt around.
Same thing with say modern city planning. Mayor Dareios decides to use two local parks as a landfill as he doesn’t want it near his own backyard. The locals around the other park are your ashamed rootless egocentrists who get run over by seagulls. The residents around the other park gather the 300. They save their park. Then the people from around the landfill come to tell the 300 they should be ashamed not letting them come live around their park. The 300 answer - NO, you’re covered in seagull droppings.
Now then again the NIMBY effect shows tribalism, which is the cause of many conflicts, so if the landfill is chosen for “the good of the city” then there needs to exist a sense of “belonging” to the city. And between cities belonging to a “nation” and so forth. With EU what I think is there will be formed more “regions”, as trying to explain the plight of reindeer herders a thousand miles south in Helsinki or Stockholm is quite as useless as trying to explain Finnish farming conditions in France.
Comment by Hank W. — Fri, Nov 30th, 2007 @ 10:26 am
Tim #28 has a point in that sauna-allegory.
I have experienced that literally (or maybe they just are tougher guys than us, present bun-pap generation of finns).
Comment by issi — Fri, Nov 30th, 2007 @ 11:09 am
#30 “Muslims who immigrate to the U.S. also tend to be far less marginalized than in the EU. We don’t have Muslim ghettos with satellite tvs turned to Al-Jazeera.”
Maybe they fear some would interfere…
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/file_on_4/5145970.stm
Comment by Anonymous — Fri, Nov 30th, 2007 @ 11:29 am
Hank W - ”So I guess Americans and British don’t have any culture even, if they are are so ashamed of their nations.”
Nothing to be ashamed of because nothing to do with me.
Hank W wrote ‘What does that leave you with then - pitiful people only rotating their lives around money? Just looking at their own bellybutton without a sense of community? Global Citizens of Egoistan?
You might be interested to know that there are lots of Patriotic British and Americans who could talk for hours about British and American cultural successes - things like Shakespeare and landing a man on the moon and so on. Also the Americans might want to talk to you about how successfully they integrated Finnish immigrants into American society. However why would an intelligent British of American citizen of Egostan want to bother you with these things?
Hank W ‘ Why do the bananas come in pounds at the market in the UK?’
They don’t
Hank W. ‘Millions of schoolkids around the world curse these nations for having to learn their language..’
I’m not sure that they do curse these nations. They may curse their teachers or education ministries for having chosen English as a second language to be studied.
If we start comparing countries against each other because of their cultural successes and so on where would that end and what specifically does it have to do with me? I know where I am at.
Comment by Andy Campbell — Fri, Nov 30th, 2007 @ 11:43 am
I never understood how somebody can be ever so proud because of some abstract construct as a country. Often people are proud of “their” country without having done themselves anything to deserve such sentiments. But maybe my problem is simply that I lived in too many countries already and lack a clear sense of nationalistic attachment to any particular location? I guess if somebody was born and raised exclusively in one location, such proudness evolves more naturally compared to somebody who has consistently been uprooted all his life.
Comment by bafana — Fri, Nov 30th, 2007 @ 12:33 pm
Why are some Finns proud of mobile phones or forests? Do they own their forests or Do they make the mobile phones? If they don’t make any phone themselves, there is absolutely no reason for them to be proud of mobile phones made by others who are totally strangers to them. Instead of being an idiot hurraying in the middle of products made by others, it’s much worth to make their own something.
Comment by european — Fri, Nov 30th, 2007 @ 12:34 pm
@36 Why do the bananas come in pounds at the market in the UK?’
They don’t
Oh you’re right. He died.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/wear/3511428.stm
Nevertheless you still answered my rhetoric question. There *are* cultural achievements to be proud of. So I cannot understand why then other nations may not have achievements to be proud of?
Comment by Hank W. — Fri, Nov 30th, 2007 @ 12:42 pm
@38 I don’t think any Finn is personally proud of the forest or mobile phones. Every American therefore must be personally responsible of G.W.Bush? I’m proud that the people of Finland have been able to maintain their forests and keep up the tradition that forest is a safe place to retreat instead of a forest being a dangerous place people would be abandoned to, and I am proud of the fact that Finland has achieve such things as mobile phones being a predominantly agrarian and heavuy industry society only a generation or two ago. Being proud means I feel being a part of the “us” that is Finland, wherefore I am willing to contribute my tax moneys wilfully for such things as the free education for example. If I was a Global Citizen of Egoistan only thinking of myself I’d be whining over the taxes and looking to escape with my money as I don’t want to benefit “us” - I want to benefit just “me”.
Comment by Hank W. — Fri, Nov 30th, 2007 @ 12:50 pm
In reply to Hank..
I over heard this in a pub in England when I was last there…
John Smith ” We’re all b*stards here in England. All of us mongrels. Not a pure Englishman here! We’ve got Scottish blood and German blood and god knows what else. We’re all a mix and that’s why we are great!”
Tom Brown replies ”That’s why we’re shit at football then!” Pub laughs.
John Smith ”But look what we have achieved! Second world war and all that!”
Tom Brown ”Yes we have achieved a lot - look at Monty Python - famous all over the world!” Pub starts singing ‘Always look on the bright side of life…”
So what do I have to do? What community exactly should I belong to.
Rhetoric is defined by taking pride in that which you have not taken part in achieving.
Who needs useless patriotic rhetoric?
Comment by Andy Campbell — Fri, Nov 30th, 2007 @ 12:54 pm
bafana, does that mean that wherever you go you won’t gang up with any nationality?
Finns abroad flock together, as do all nations. If I don’t find Finns I’ll find myself with other Nordics and lately with Estonians as well — and the Irish are fun to be with for some reason. Then comes, well no nation really, but the English-speaking people will steal the show with their eloquence anyway, so you want to hag around with them probably.
Nowadays I tell jokes in English only if there are no English speakers in the crowd. Earlier, when I did tell jokes I was strange, now I’m just boring
Comment by Anonymous — Fri, Nov 30th, 2007 @ 1:05 pm
I think it is kind of absurd to say that people should only be “proud” of matters easily quantifiable as “valuable”. Be proud if you have enough possessions, be proud if you got yourself elected as Mayor etc. But the reality is, people will be “proud” because of sentimental things, like the “sense of belonging” Hank wrote above. Most people will be “proud” of their Mom or Dad or their children even though they would not be so very accomplished in life. The sense of belonging to a family (or an extended one, perhe/suku) can be real and quite comparable to national pride, especially, I think, among smaller nationalities.
A big part of Finns will feel a mixture of pride and sadness about their country, independence and the wars come December 6th. It is mostly not about losing your own relatives in the war or helping to maintain Finnish independence by your own actions, it is that unquantifiable sense of belonging, brought about by the community and a perceived “connection of destiny”(kohtalonyhteys). Of course it would be “rational” to eradicate such foolish thinking patterns, but would it be right?
Comment by Drakon — Fri, Nov 30th, 2007 @ 1:16 pm
@40,
The ancient Greeks had a word for people who didn’t care about their city and its affairs, it was ‘idiot’.
@41,
Try giving up your citizenship and being a stateless person for a while, you’ll see how much fun not being a part of any community at all is.
Comment by prince of dorkness — Fri, Nov 30th, 2007 @ 1:19 pm
To Prince of Dorkness - You’ve misunderstood what this debate or discussion is about. It’s not about giving up anything or nor caring about where one lives.
Comment by Andy Campbell — Fri, Nov 30th, 2007 @ 1:40 pm
Of course it would be “rational†to eradicate such foolish thinking patterns, but would it be right?
It’s not rational, in my view, in any sense to give up your history. I was just yesterday reading Peter Englund’s Tysdnadens historia. He wrote about the “lost European tribes” somewhere in the Caribeans, India and where not. Most of these “tribes” have, according to him, lost the sense of their own history and will thus remain dirt-poor, in particular when the people around the have an ethnic doubts about them nevertheless.
Comment by Anonymous — Fri, Nov 30th, 2007 @ 1:41 pm
Read the blog again.
Comment by Andy Campbell — Fri, Nov 30th, 2007 @ 1:43 pm
#43- Ah Drakon, December the 6th, my first day back in Melbourne. Can’t wait to catch up and celebrate with friends.
Comment by Punter — Fri, Nov 30th, 2007 @ 2:32 pm
Anon.#46: I agree with you. I was referring to the perceived “rationality” of only being “proud” of material, easily quantifiable things. We know life is more than that, and for all talk of “imagined communities” what people feel about their social and national affiliations is real and valuable.
But there are pitfalls. Remembering, and valuing history is right and proper. But using it for questionable purposes and aggressive nationalism (what, I think, Andy calls “patriotic rhetoric”) can also be a serious problem. Drawing the line is, as usual, very difficult.
Comment by Drakon — Fri, Nov 30th, 2007 @ 2:50 pm
@37 Dunno, in this case maybe you need to find your spirit guide to lead you
Comment by Hank W. — Fri, Nov 30th, 2007 @ 3:11 pm
“The ancient Greeks had a word for people who didn’t care about their city and its affairs, it was ‘idiot’.”
Ah yes, the enlightened Greeks. Aren’t they the ones who invented butt sex?
Comment by Kristian — Fri, Nov 30th, 2007 @ 6:32 pm
#38: This may come as a shocker, but some Finns indeed are forest owners and some are known to have worked for a mobile phone manufacturer. Sure, the phones are physically mostly manufactured by robots, so I don’t know who should be proud of that.
Come to think of it, I’ll be inheriting a little patch when it’s just about ripe to be chopped down. I planted some of those trees myself. It’ll be a real acid test for my tree-hugging. I’m not so proud of this frigging E90 keyboard, btw.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Fri, Nov 30th, 2007 @ 11:32 pm
I don’t see anything wrong with being proud of your own country even if it is a matter of luck (after all, the culture where you grew up also influences who you are), but I do find seriously disturbing the side of it that tries to negate the good points of others and the bad side of your own.
Comment by Chiva Congelado — Fri, Nov 30th, 2007 @ 11:45 pm
The best in this planet! 2006 PISA, third in a row! and FIFTH our cousins, Estonians! No wonder fox-news winters and soccer gated hfbs makes me ill and angry.
Comment by tim73 — Sat, Dec 1st, 2007 @ 1:32 am
Hey Tim, you’re a great example of the problems with PISA. It’s one thing to be a clever 15 year old but another to continue that on to adulthood.
We are ON this planet and THEY (winter and hfb) MAKE you ill and angry. Also don’t use an exclamation mark in the middle of a sentence.
Sorry, couldn’t resist.
Comment by Punter — Sat, Dec 1st, 2007 @ 8:30 am
According to this paper:
http://groups.uni-paderborn.de/rindermann/materialien/PublikationsPDFs/07EJP.pdf
the Finns are the most intelligent nation on Europe, no wonder Estonians are doing well too. Only if you are Chinese, Japanese, or Korean you’re more intelligent and thus entitled to correct our spelling errors. Just joking! We intelligent people know that perfect English skills correlate more with arrogance and ignorance than anything else.
Comment by Anonymous — Sat, Dec 1st, 2007 @ 10:26 am
#52,
Designers of the phones, researchers and developers and those who are working for marketing and sales, working in the phone lines, janitors, guards and anybody contributing can be proud of their contributions not the phones. If you are cleaning the factory, then you can be proud of the clean factory. That’s it.
Comment by european — Sat, Dec 1st, 2007 @ 4:47 pm
I’m not proud of phones–a silly idea–but I’m proud of people who don’t think that Finland is about phones and who make it happen, like, pretty much all of us. “It” meaning a society that makes bribes sound like an offense or that urges the kids to study till they’re the best in the world. Yeah, and I’m proud of people who can follow a complicated argument so that I don’t have to explain everything three times.
Comment by Paavo — Sat, Dec 1st, 2007 @ 5:24 pm
What, how can I be a soccer mom already? My kid is only one year old. Geesh.
And what I want to know is what happens to all this brilliance after 15? Where are your Nobel laureates, your innovations, etc? I mean, you guys are still trotting out Unikko and Aalto’s wave as the current excitement in Finnish design. There’s a ‘Finnish Design Blog’ that doesn’t feature much else. Do kids just go get their college degree and settle down to the 8-4 life in a suburban cube? Where’s the inspiration?
Comment by hfb — Sun, Dec 2nd, 2007 @ 5:25 am
Well, living in a Nordic society means that you experience progress and enlightenment as far as they have ever advanced in all of human history - surely one can be proud of that! Seriously speaking it is good to be able to have a degree of patriotism provided that it doesn’t lead to blinkered and unreasonably closed outlook. You can combine patriotism and cosmopolitanism - or rather you must do that in order for both to be meaningful attitudes.
Hmm, oh dear, am I here again? Phil, you could build filters to the site: anything by Hank would always be welcome, there are some subjects (like drugs, sexual minorities, anti-authoritarian politics etc.) where you actually sound fairly reasonable and I guess even Kristian must have some semi-lucid moments on some safe subjects. And you did promise to seek some welfare state and tax loving flaming socialist to post here - where is he/she???
Comment by mjr — Sun, Dec 2nd, 2007 @ 8:39 am
“but i’m proud of the u.s. for the most open and welcoming society for immigrants in the world.”
Correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t it quite hard to obtain working visa to the US? For example, If I as a Finn would like to start my life in The United States, I would have to get a job first in order to live legally in the country. However, getting a job is quite hard since the goverment have made it really difficult to hire foreing people. That doesn’t necessarily represent the views of ordinary citizens but it sure creates feeling that the officials don’t want outsiders to the country.
Comment by Pekka — Sun, Dec 2nd, 2007 @ 11:04 am
blah blah the 8-4 life in a suburban cube blah blah
Finland is usually one of the best, if not the best, in different studies comparing innovativeness. Sorry noita, but the bright side is that your kid has a good chance of becoming pretty clever if you don’t destroy him/her altogether (what your hate-filled soul unfortunately probably will do — what a waste).
Comment by Anonymous — Sun, Dec 2nd, 2007 @ 1:02 pm
“Correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t it quite hard to obtain working visa to the US?”
300,000 work visas gone in one day. It would not matter if the US offered 3 million. They would all be applied for.
You can however migrate to Canada without promise of work. Then, if not happy there, become a Canadian and then migrate to the US.
Comment by Fred Fry — Sun, Dec 2nd, 2007 @ 7:50 pm
@59 There’s a ‘Finnish Design Blog’ that doesn’t feature much else.
You mean?
http://designfinland.blogs.com/
Comment by Hank W. — Sun, Dec 2nd, 2007 @ 10:16 pm
“Finland is usually one of the best, if not the best, in different studies comparing innovativeness. Sorry noita, but the bright side is that your kid has a good chance of becoming pretty clever if you don’t destroy him/her altogether (what your hate-filled soul unfortunately probably will do  what a waste).”
And yet…you didn’t answer my question. If people are so smart, why haven’t they distinguished themselves, particularly outside of Finland?
As for your hate-filled insult. Dickless anonymous pokers don’t truck with me. Grow some balls if you’re going to make personal insults. My kid is lucky to have me. She’s a cutie who loves to say Hi to everything and anyone with eyeballs. Here she has a throng of admiring grannies in the grocery every time we go. I’m not sure what she’d do with Finns looking at the ground instead of here where she gets big smiles. She’ll be able to do anything she wants to do…within reason, of course.
I keep thinking of our dogsitter whom I helped a bit with her English. The teachers were giving her very high marks for some written stuff that really wasn’t all that good but made sense when she explained that they were graded by the number of words and marked by non-native English teachers. I asked her what she was hoping to do in college and thereafter and her big ambition was to get an 8-4 salaried job…. Here was a smart, pretty girl whose big ambition was to get…a job. If nothing else I hope that I have given my little girl the gift of all things are possible. If you can dream it, you can do it…and I hope she has big dreams and a vast imagination.
Hank, hmm…no, not that one, I’ll have to look it up on my feed but that Hel Looks thing is good for a giggle or three. Still, of all the ‘design’ in Finland these days, much of it is derivative of the big three. I’ve seen more interesting Finnish design in Ikea and it’s much more affordable and functional.
Comment by hfb — Mon, Dec 3rd, 2007 @ 5:36 am
“However, getting a job is quite hard since the goverment have made it really difficult to hire foreing people. That doesn’t necessarily represent the views of ordinary citizens but it sure creates feeling that the officials don’t want outsiders to the country.”
Pekka, well, don’t move to Boston as your name in the local dialect sounds like ‘pecker’ which is a puerile nickname for the male member.
If you’re high tech and the company wants you, they’ll get you in. If you’re just a regular schlep though, you’ll just have to take a number and get in line.
Comment by hfb — Mon, Dec 3rd, 2007 @ 5:43 am