Well that is kinda weird that he/she told you that you don’t need your wisdom teeth removed. I was always told when I visited that I need them removed when they get cavities.

The worst part of having a high-tax and low-wealth economy is that any new technologies always arrive later than everywhere else. Laser drilling is a good example: The US had it 10+ years-ago, and now a large number of dentists use it. You can google it and see.

But Finland only got it about a year- or two- ago, and only a small number of places use it in the Helsinki area.

It’s cheaper in the US too.

I think it’s good to provide support to people who can’t afford it, but I don’t think the ‘social democracy’ approach is the most effective way to do it. A high-wealth economic model is always the best way to go.

Congratulations! I have been waiting 14 (four-teen ) months in Porvoo and 2 more for the cleaning.

The (public)dentists in Finland are only free for under 18s. And I’ve been always told that my wisdom teeth need removing. Haven’t done it yet though, cause you need to be in Finland for few weeks after the operation, and I live in the UK and don’t want to go to dentist in here, even though it would be free for students.

And the waiting time in my home town is normally less than a week for about anything. And I book my appointments normally by e-mail, because that easiest for me. So the huge queues are a problem for the big cities. And oh yeah, if you haven’t has a check-up in few years they send you a letter home with a pre-booked appointment that you can go to or change it if it’s a bad time. Propably not in Espoo though. And I usually book a check-up and cleaning for the same day, cause my dentist knows that my teeth normally need cleaning once a year.

“After 15 years of fucked up wisdom teeth, they’ve finally miraculously cured themselves on their own accord! …either that or the public dentist doesn’t want to pay for my operation”

Or your private dentist(s) in the US thought he could make a bit more by taking them out! Who knows where the truth lies. Americans are obsessed with teeth though. It’s fine, I like straight, white teeth – why not? However, my American colleague looked at me with disgust when I said I had never even heard of getting my teeth covered. She was then adamant I should. I suggest she think loftier thoughts – like what brand of nail polish to wear next time.

I remember having a couple of my wisdom teeth removed by a public dentist when I was living in Sweden. The public dentist in Finland had never said anything about it but in Sweden it seemed to be an issue. I remember there being some other issues as well that public dental care in Sweden and Finland viewed differently (that was years ago).

My dentist in the US wondered what both the private and the public dentists in Finland were smoking when he noticed the spackle that they put on four of my teeth to take care of my sensitivity (which it ultimately didn’t). I paid 300 euro to the private dentist for that mess. I think I paid $20 for the full deep cleaning by the periodontist who informed me that the gums were receeding and that was why they were sensitive. It fixed the problem. It would seem the dental care in Finland exists, but is highly variable or, probably as the folks around here who like to cling to the statistics will say, very ‘efficient’.

At this very moment my wife’s wisdom teeth are coming in. She had an infection and she needs to get them pulled before they further screw up her bottom teeth. In Finland they never told her that they need to be removed. In the US, on one of her first visits to the government PUBLIC, social welfare, free dentist (yes they do have them in the US) they told her she should have had them removed along time ago. A quick look at an X-ray can show that.

She hasn’t had them removed yet because at the time she was pregnant and shortly after the baby was born I began making to much money so we lost our PUBLIC insurance (yes they do have it in the US) and did not have dental insurance for about 1.5 years. I’m going to look for a dentist today and I can guarantee that she will have the wisdom teeth out by the end of the week. I will probably even negotiate the cost down by having two oral surgeons compete for our business. Oh the joys of private health care!!

“Or your private dentist(s) in the US thought he could make a bit more by taking them out! Who knows where the truth lies.”

I don’t think a dentist would risk a lawsuit to make a few extra bucks. In a public health system you may not know were the truth lies because there is no immediate (NOTE: immediate) accountability for mistruths.

Somehow my experiences of going to the dentist here in Finland have been pretty good. Most people I know(Finns included) complain about the long waits. So far my longest wait has been about a month. They recommended my wisdom teeth to be removed, which was a wait of another month. As far as I’m concerned, waiting for a few months for dental care is not too big of a problem, as long as it’s not acute.

On a side note, the quality of care seems to be less, as one of my fillings partially fell out after a few months. Oh yeah, they don’t offer ten flavors of the nice tasting foam stuff here either. And they really need to suction the mouth during the procedure more often.

Phil:
Meanwhile my girlfriend was told she doesn’t need to come back for another FOUR YEARS! WOW!! We were always told you need to visit the dentist once a year

I was told by a private dentist (80 euros for a checkup and cleaning, how’s that for expensive) that I don’t need to come back for a couple of years since my teeth were in very good shape. So it seems there are legitimate exceptions. Then again, the doctor was finnish and might have made his statement out of sheer incompetence.
In any case, four years is way too long and the reason for such a long time is obvious.

I visited private dentist this year. Resources on private dentist were bloody awful. No nurse and room was tiny.

Anyway she told that I have great teeth and I probably newer have to visit dentist again. I had thought that she would have wanted check my teeth annually.

“I don’t think a dentist would risk a lawsuit to make a few extra bucks. In a public health system you may not know were the truth lies because there is no immediate (NOTE: immediate) accountability for mistruths.”

That is EXACTLY right. Despite my criticisms about the US, I have always found the medical professionals there superb. They have enough business, so it’s not really necessary for them to suggest unnecessary procedures.

Of course, you have to use some common sense. If your dentist happens to be some Hollywood dentist-to-the-stars type who wears lots of gold and drives a really expensive car, then watch out But most aren’t like that.

You can get pretty good deals on cosmetic dentistry too. There’s lots of money floating around in the US, so dentists have volume practices which makes their services cheaper. I’m thinking about having some caps/crowns done there.

I’m getting a wisdom tooth removed tomorrow. I probably would have survived without the operation, but it’s too late to retreat now.

Oh btw, when I called in for a chek-up I got the appointment for the following day, and the next one about a week after the check-up. This was a public (YTHS) dentist.

Oh yes, another nice thing about American dentists: gratuitous use of NITROUS OXIDE!!!

YTHS is not public.

One of my friends Dad in Finland is a dentist. One day when I was over their house he gave me a nice electric toothbrush and suggested that I only use electric brushes as they clean much better. Ever since we have used one, except when we travel to Finland. It is funny how you notice how much better they clean your teeth.

I do a yearly checkup and my wife gets one every six months. This is as suggested by the same dentist.

I had always wondered why there were so many dentists in Helsinki. You see the signs all over. Guess they are all private.

I lived in Finland for several months, and indeed the healthcare system is rather bad. I had sinusitis, and the nurse said there was nothing wrong. I had to insist way a lot in order to meet the doctor and start the antibiotics. However, there is social welfare. Safety, honesty, punctuality. I am originally from Greece, and I have waited 45 minutes for a bus. I am afraid of going out in the nights, and I am afraid of getting in the hospitals for exams; for other reasons, but still…

Lets have more horror stories.

I kinda like reading them.

Or your private dentist(s) in the US thought he could make a bit more by taking them out! Who knows where the truth lies.

No, this includes all the Finnish dentists I’ve seen.

Americans are obsessed with teeth though. It’s fine, I like straight, white teeth – why not?

Finnsense, I’m willing to bet you 5 euros that you’re British?

I actually like my dentist. She is very conservative on dental care, not being to aggressive, but rather would rather “Watch” a tooth, than cap or expend lots of money on it.

And yet she has a incentive to do what? the expensive stuff? you bet, but then she would lose her good customer base.

Now is that something a public dentist worries about? Losing their customer base?

Now do you see why a private system is so much better? they actually care about a customer?

I will pay any cost to be considered “the customer”. Not that jerk I have to see, as the government forced me into slavery at work.

My dentist told me it might be very difficult to remove the wisdom teeth when the patient is older than 30 because by that age, the tooth has grown so deep into the jaw. So he fixed my wisdom teeth since he considered that they will be ok that way. That might well be the case with your wisdom teeth too, Phil.

Hey Phil,

Doesn’t Nokia offer a dental plan? Why bother going local when you get the really good free stuff free?

For once, I agree with winter. Public docs aren’t the happiest sorts, in my experience. They really do seem to work like slaves.

I’d much rather see private docs tend to both normal paying patients and payment-assisted ones. At least that way they get a mixture of clientèle.

Keeping paying patients in the mix ensures that quality stays high.

That’s difficult with a Finnish low-wealth economic model though :-/

I had a fracture of a very dear tooth of mine. Cracked along the gumline (rather than perpendicular to it), so it went unnoticed by x-ray pix.

It went unnoticed until the pain I felt when chomping into some chili pepper corn and the two pieces of my tooth finally severed. The pain was shocking.

I went to the local city dental office the next morning after an a.m. emergency appointment was arranged, and the public doctor who spoke at least three languages (fin, swe and eng) set about to find out what was wrong with the tooth (as the crack still didn’t show).

It took a visit or two until we discovered that the tooth was cracked and then a month of root canals to try to “glue” the tooth back together (otherwise it was a perfectly healthy tooth), but to no avail. After the fifth or sixth visit she finally came to the conclusion that it just couldn’t be fixed and she reluctantly pulled it out.

Now, I grew up with great dentists in the States, but the sorrow and the empathy that dentist had with the loss of my tooth was more compassion than I ever heard uttered in any dentist’s offic. She took the time to refer me to a place to get an implant but I have since been unable to raise the cash for a 2000 euro ceramic tooth.

This was in a small Helsinki public dentists office.

I have had the same dentist for 20 years. They get to know your teeth. Can the public version of private do the same?

I really don’t see the advantage of Public. You are going to trust someone with your body, who has no real reason to have you back?

I visited dentist once and she told me that one of my wisdom teeth had to be removed (it wasn’t straight and therefore rubbed my cheek) and she removed it. She said that other 3 were in correct position and if they stay that way, they don’t need to be taken away.

So, I guess that wisdom teeth can stay in your mouth if they don’t cause any problems

“every time I visit the dentist I’m told I need my right wisdom teeth removed, I’ve been told this since I was a teenager.”

So, why haven’t you had them pulled yet?

They must pay some lousy wages at Nokia, if you can’t afford to go to a private dentist.

You mean Michael Moore didn’t come to Finland to talk to you about how incredibly wonderful socialized dentistry was? I’m shocked. These kinds of stories are an inconvenient truth to people like him, I’m afraid. You can edit a film, but you just can’t edit reality to make it into your ideal vision.

Michael Moore speaking up against something like this? No, that would be http://www.manufacturingdissentmovie.com/………...

Well, all those city-greens et al. have been preaching for years how everyone should move to big cities and southern Finland to save energy and have the rest of the country converted to an outdoor museum. Now you have it. Juntti-Einaris have paid attention and are moving in in droves so the public services in Espoo and elsewhere can’t keep up with the pace. I bet you don’t have the problem of getting to the dentist in most of the countryside.

It is the same here in growth center of Oulu. Kids have their teeth taken care OK in public dentist, but I have to take my sweet torment every 1.5 years privately with two blondes. I always get complimented for good teeth.

Just came from the dentist. It took like a minute to remove the tooth. I’ll take this over the root canal treatment any day.

Doesn’t Nokia offer a dental plan? Why bother going local when you get the really good free stuff free?

Not that I’m aware of. Nokia in the US does.

They have enough business, so it’s not really necessary for them to suggest unnecessary procedures.

What was it that you Kristian are smoking? I’m not sure it’s safe. Do you sometimes get certain ideas like that the German kebabbilas have enough business so it’s unnecessary to try to sell the customers a soda along with the kebab? Or that you can drive a car with your eyes closed if you wish hard enough”? Or that Finland’s economy isn’t one of the very strongest in the world?

One of the main reasons why the American health care is so unbelievably expensive is the fact that they do all kinds of unnecessary things–or “treat aggressively” or “make sure” to put in more politely. “Hell, it’s the insurance company that pays, why not make a little extra money.” And the same goes for Finland as well with those treatments that are covered by a private insurance for some reason.

And if you think the situation is now bad just wait for a couple of years. By then Finland’s economy is bound to be, along with the rest of the world, in a recession, growing perhaps only by 2%. At the same time the salaries in municipalities will go up by something like 20%. That doesn’t compute, something drastic has to be done: higher taxes, longer queues, higher payments and more privatization? Making the system much more efficient in a couple of years won’t happen.

It’s time to get a job or become a student and be part of a “plan” there. Otherwise you’re gonna be fucked up, along with retirees and the like.

So, in your opinion, what would be the optimal way to arrange health, or at least dental care? Pointing out problems isn’t exactly helpful if not offering solutions.

“One of the main reasons why the American health care is so unbelievably expensive is the fact that they do all kinds of unnecessary things–or “treat aggressively” or “make sure””

Preventative treatment is very common in the US. The better insurers encourage it, so they don’t have to pay more in the future if the problem gets worse.

If you pay out-of-pocket for dental services, it is much cheaper in the US. Basically, in Finland you pay for it once with high-taxes. And then again with a high fee—a fee that’s much higher than in the US.

“the main reasons why the American health care is so unbelievably expensive”

Oh, and just to recap, dental care is NOT more expensive in the US.

But your point might have some truth when considering non-dental medical care. It’s also more expensive in Switzerland. Have you seen overall salary levels in either of those places? A good bit higher than in Finland.

That’s not to say they couldn’t improve on costs. For example, why doesn’t America allow medicines to be purchased from foreign sources?

It’s not the insurance companies who prevent it. Rather it’s due to legislation meant to protect the drug industry. Sort of like alcohol legislation in Finland, that is meant to protect domestic beer and liquor producers.

And why do full-doctors need to see every patient? Couldn’t physician’s assistants handle most jobs, like in Europe? —i.e. only a master’s degree is required to be a physician in Europe. Americans can thank lobbying organizations for that: Here’s what Milton Friedman said about the American Medical Association:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Medical_Association#Criticisms

“If you pay out-of-pocket for dental services, it is much cheaper in the US. Basically, in Finland you pay for it once with high-taxes. And then again with a high fee—a fee that’s much higher than in the US.”

BS. Here is just one comparison, but be my guest and do as many as you like.

Prices of filling 1 surface in US: 91$ (2004)
http://www.bracesinfo.com/cgi-bin/costs1

Same in Finland: 30 – 40€ (would be 60 – 70€ without KELA, so roughly the same)
http://www.andante.fi/fi/hintaesimerkkeja/
http://www.itakeskuksenhammaslaakariasema.fi/Prices.htmhttp://www.hammasl.rytivaara.kpnet.com/hinnat.htm

I couldn’t find any website comparing prices of routine procedures in Finland, which is a shame. A fantastic business idea for someone, Kristian maybe?

Oh, and just to recap, dental care is NOT more expensive in the US.

Now, this is just the kind of thing that you guys should avoid without first checking the facts. Or actually you don’t even have check: of course it’s more expensive in the USA because it’s more private. Health care is strange in that sense.

On the national level the dental care costs about two times more in the USA, the difference is about the same as in the overall healthcare expenditures–which is a bit strange taking into account that there are a lot more private dentist in Finland than there are private doctors.

On an individual level getting your teeth fixed is also much less expensive in Finland.

I always go to private dentists here in Finland. After KELA pays their share, the price is quite reasonable. Fillings through from a private dentist here seem to be half the price of what I paid in the states.

“Prices of filling 1 surface in US: 91$ (2004)
http://www.bracesinfo.com/cgi-bin/costs1
Same in Finland: 30 – 40€ (would be 60 – 70€”

I’d say that’s about right for the US price, except that you’d get drilling with a laser instead of a regular destructive-type drill. In Finland, you pay a little bit more for laser treatment than the price you quote, but maybe not much more; it wasn’t even available until 2-years-ago in Finland. It was there 10-years-ago in US, thanks to the private economy.

Those are little things though. What about crowns? I was quoted 3K in Finland. Here’s a price that someone in the US pays:
http://www.medicinenet.com/dental_crowns/page4.htm#toci

I don’t know how much of that 3K KELA pays, but since I don’t have KELA it’s irrelevant for me. Still curious though. But above all, you have to consider that any such treatments is more affordable in the US, due to the difference in purchasing power; you can’t just compare nominal amounts.

“By then Finland’s economy is bound to be, along with the rest of the world, in a recession, growing perhaps only by 2%.”

2% growth is not a recession. Learn your econ.

#43- Indeed. When I studied, the term recession was only applied following 2 successive quarters of negative growth. I remember our finance minister at the term Mr. Paul Keating refusing to call it a recession even after 4 successive quarters after which he called it “the recession we had to have.” Ahh school days. Good times indeed.

Recession it is. If Finland’s economy has lately grown by 5% or more, then dropping down to two 2% is “a significant decline in economic activity spread across the economy”. Learn your econ, faggot. (Yeah, yeah, the räkänokka called me that earlier, I just had to get back at him

But now I have to finish that damn job, no time to play around with you puppets anymore. See you guys later, in six months or so, perhaps I’ll buy you beers then and we carry on with the conversation … but only if you promise to stop that constant whining. A bit less patriotic and racist outlook on life wouldn’t hurt either; you think you’re hurting us with that, but in fact it’s eating you yourselves up. Heippa.

Why are you still reading me, I already told you heippa. (I’m getting really good at this puppetmastering …)

Amazing that you were offered cleaning. I also went to the same public dentist in Nöykkiö and was not offered any cleaning, although I requested it. When I asked them if they will check me again in 6 months, the response was I must not worry about my teeth for the coming 3 years!!!! Sounds dodgy to me.

I had both of my lower wisdom teeth drilled and filled in my teens. The dentist didn’t want to pull them because “they were so beautifully aligned with the other teeth” and they haven’t bothered me once since then. My upper wisdom teeth have never needed fixing or pulling, so I still have all four in my forties.

Kristian:”I’d say that’s about right for the US price, except that you’d get drilling with a laser instead of a regular destructive-type drill.”
What the hell are you on about? How is not laser drilling destructive? It doesn’t matter if dental bone is removed by mechanical erosion or vaporized, it’s still destroyed. I fail to see the difference.

“if dental bone is removed by mechanical erosion or vaporized”

The question is: how much? Regular drills take out more tooth material, so they weaken the overall tooth structure more. It’s especially relevant when a cavity is on the edge of the tooth, where breakage can occur. Also, you don’t really feel the laser; a little heat, but not much more.

There’s plenty of info about it on the net.

Kristian, I wasn’t talking about the painfulness or the lack thereof of the experience. I was talking about the amount of destroyed dental bone. I call bullshit on your argument.

The amount of removed bone is very precisely controlled by both methods and the only difference is the skill of the dentist doing the removing. It may well be that a lesser skilled dentist with a laser can do a more precise hole, but I would much rather have a more skilled dentist doing the drilling, even with an old-fashioned rose drill (or whatever it’s called in English). I also would much rather have a nice buffer zone removed around the cavity in order to reduce the risk of having a cavity under the filling.

There’s nothing so sacred about my dental bone that I’m willing to gamble about inflammation in preference of removed dental matter. I already have two artificial teeth, so I don’t feel too attached (see, I made another funny) to my own.

Well, maybe it’s just me being so naive but I’ve never got any problems with the public dentists. Just visited one today, reserved the time earlier in the morning and because it was a pretty fast but acute I got the time for the same day!

I had twice bad experience about public dentists in Helsinki.
Every time I didn’t have toothache before I went there, but after came out there I got awful toothache for days.
On the second time I have to use painkillers for a week to let myself get into sleep at night, I finally turn to private dentist.

Seems like I’m in the shit then. I was told that it would cost around 800 GBP to fix my back teeth at an NHS dentist, and that was over 2 years ago now. I am now living in Simpele with my left jaw aching like hell. I’ll go to the local healthcare center today, at least they can give me some high grade painkillers and the name of a good dentist in Rautjarvi. Now I just need to worry about the bus prices, perkele.

Thank you,
In this week I need to visit a dentist, and your commentary is just in time for my first trip to one dentist in Helsinki.

is there place or link where we can get more details of dental doctor in finland