Educated Finns earn less with longer hospital queues
Educated people in Finland are paid far less then their EU counterparts…
Finns with higher education were paid over 20 percent less on average than their counterparts in the EU, reports the trade union.
Chair of the union Matti Viljanen says Finland’s lower gross income, stiff progressive tax and high price levels lower purchasing power. He says Finns should become familiar with salary and tax policies.
But we’re taxed so high cause we got wonderful welfare services like healthcare, right??
Waiting periods for receiving hospital treatment have been growing longer. In many areas, the situation has worsened over the past year.
[...]In Pirkanmaa in west-central Finland, around 1,100 people have been waiting for care for over 6 months, in the capital city and Uusimaa region the figure is 2,300 - nearly 700 more people than a year ago. Hospital districts in the southwest and other central parts of the country also report longer queues.
Phil, I had this one ready to go, and you beat me to it! It’s ok, because yours is better
I hate to bring this up… But since it’s November… I wonder how much people comparing their incomes to the ‘guy’s in the next cubicle’ gives them an unrealistic sense that they are earning a fair wage. After all, shouldn’t people be analyzing their position relative to the market instead of being jealous about their co-worker?
Employers must love it though. LOL!
Anyway, I agree totally with the article. It’s a double-whammy in Finland: low salaries and super high-prices. Not a good combination. It reminds me of an EU report that we talked about.
Comment by Kristian — Mon, Nov 26th, 2007 @ 4:35 pm
Phil, I had this one ready to go, and you beat me to it! It’s ok, because yours is better
I only said two sentences! How could mine be better? Did you just say one? :-)\
After all, shouldn’t people be analyzing their position relative to the market instead of being jealous about their co-worker?
I wonder how often an employee storms into their boss’s office and demands a raise (”..or I quit!!”) cause Pekka in the next cubicle over makes more for doing the same work? Then they look like a dumbfuck when they find out that Pekka has a small business on the side.
Comment by Phil — Mon, Nov 26th, 2007 @ 4:39 pm
“Then they look like a dumbfuck when they find out that Pekka has a small business on the side.”
Exactly. It’s all aggregated under the same ansiotulo heading, so you can’t distinguish between side-business income and primary work income. I suspect that most of them don’t know the difference anyway.
Comment by Kristian — Mon, Nov 26th, 2007 @ 4:47 pm
Phil, when are you going to blog about the US junior hockey team, the Hudson Valley Eagles, who came to live and play in Varkaus because of the wonderful free education we have here in Finland?
I think that could be an interesting subject to discuss, instead of same-o same-o, considering it ties in all of Finland, the United States and our different policies…
Comment by Drakon — Mon, Nov 26th, 2007 @ 4:48 pm
Hospital queue?
What is that? Do you get in line to have your shots? Or do you get in line for the next operating room? Gee what is a queue. Sounds so Soviet like.
Hay, I thought you all had universal medical coverage? This sure looks like you do not.
Comment by winter, "Yea, Proton Power, now in remission" — Mon, Nov 26th, 2007 @ 5:39 pm
What? Those goddamn unions are at it again! They should listen to Uusis!
Remind me again how long you queued for your appendicectomy.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Mon, Nov 26th, 2007 @ 5:42 pm
Actually 6 months is not so long a wait. In Canada, they let you wait 1 year for Cancer treatment, or 6 months for a MRI.
Thats why there is Private, right over there in the evil USA.
Comment by winter, "Yea, Proton Power, now in remission" — Mon, Nov 26th, 2007 @ 5:44 pm
Finland. The land of low incomes and high cost of living. Is it because of our climate? The long lasting cold perioid requires a lot of energy, but factories still need to be competitive, so they have to take the money from the workers. On the other hand, the same reasons make food expensive as well as heating the house. Hence the cost of living is high. Perhaps that is the reason why the construction workers have rather good wages compared to factory workers? The climate doesn’t really affect in that job that much, they don’t even have to be globally competitive.
Comment by me — Mon, Nov 26th, 2007 @ 5:52 pm
#5: Coming from someone who has teeth-jeering experiences because a doctor gave you his phone number. Oooooh. So you need cancer for that. For me, a rash was enough.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Mon, Nov 26th, 2007 @ 5:59 pm
“Thats why there is Private, right over there in the evil USA.”
We do have a private healthcare in Finland. Both public and private. You can also have a health care insurance, just like in the “evil” USA. No worries. It’s up to you.
The reason for public healthcare in general is, that in a small country like Finland, insurance companies could not survive if there would be a previously unknown nationwide epidemic. They would all go down with the huge amount of compensations. To deal with the compensations the price of the insurance would have to be so high, that nobody could afford it. Hence, we NEED a public health care.
Comment by me — Mon, Nov 26th, 2007 @ 6:03 pm
Hey, who says all that tax money goes to medical services for regular people.
Can you say welfare, nice long maternity leave and free child care for all. OH yes, and don’t forget social justice for parts of the third-world.
Maybe the services are much better if you are on welfare, because you have nothing else to do while your waiting for treatment.
Any maybe the rest of the EU is not paying the ‘true cost’ like Finns are. Maybe Finland should tell them!
Comment by Fred Fry — Mon, Nov 26th, 2007 @ 6:18 pm
You need public Health care because you are a small country?
Smell test anyone? Even a small country can have back ups for nation wide hits, you don’t socialize, Soviet style, and make slaves of your health care workers.
The world is global, or did you miss that point? “Evil USA next door”.
Comment by winter, "Yea, Proton Power, now in remission" — Mon, Nov 26th, 2007 @ 8:15 pm
me said, “The land of low incomes and high cost of living. Is it because of our climate? The long lasting cold perioid requires a lot of energy”
Most of the United States is hotter than Hell for much of the year. So why is it competitive and can still pay the highest salaries for professionals in the world?
Best purchasing power too.
And yep, I do think that Veropörssi fetish is bad for wages. You got that one right.
Comment by expat nate — Mon, Nov 26th, 2007 @ 8:50 pm
“United States is hotter than Hell”
Almost all buildings are Air Conditioned half the year. It takes lots of energy, in case anybody doesn’t already know that.
Comment by expat nate — Mon, Nov 26th, 2007 @ 8:53 pm
@2 that is if Pekka is reporting that income from his side business. From what I have seen with the statistics, he probably won’t be reporting it.
Comment by Sirkuspelle — Mon, Nov 26th, 2007 @ 9:05 pm
I had to go to the Health Center with my daughter because of an ear infection last week. I had to wait about 15 minutes, and there was hardly anyone waiting. The doctor looked at her ears with his scope, and said, yep, she’s definitely got an ear infection and prescribed some medicine and sent us on our way. Things seem to still be working in Salo.
Comment by Sirkuspelle — Mon, Nov 26th, 2007 @ 9:11 pm
#
Phil, when are you going to blog about the US junior hockey team, the Hudson Valley Eagles, who came to live and play in Varkaus because of the wonderful free education we have here in Finland?
Hadn’t heard about it, got a link?
Comment by Phil — Mon, Nov 26th, 2007 @ 9:21 pm
Remind me again how long you queued for your appendicectomy.
LOL! If I would have waited longer I would have died. I think even the Cuban healthcare system would have taken that thing out right away.
Comment by Phil — Mon, Nov 26th, 2007 @ 9:23 pm
# 12
You are not making any sense at all. It’s not Soviet style, it’s Scandinavian style. It’s called “social democracy”. Google it.
Like any democracy, there is no “style” but democracy, where the people have the power. I’m not sure though, can democracy be called democracy, if the voters know nothing about the world, like in that one country. I think we all know the name.
Like I said, we have both public and private health care, with insurances.
# 13
Size matters. You get your energy from Canada, which is nothing like doing business with Russia.
# 14
You obviously don’t know much about electric power transmission do you? Find out about the prices of electricity in Finland during winter and summer and share your wisdom afterwards. Last winter we had the potential danger of a network shutdown, due to unusually cold weather. Bear in mind that Finland locates as high as Alaska. You may have heard the term Arctic Circle.
Anyways, it was just a thought. I don’t know if it’s due to climate or not, it was just a guess. To me it would seem logical to think that the climate has atleast some effect to economy.
Comment by me — Mon, Nov 26th, 2007 @ 9:33 pm
19 “You obviously don’t know much about electric power transmission do you? Find out about the prices of electricity in Finland during winter and summer and share your wisdom afterwards. Last winter we had the potential danger of a network shutdown, due to unusually cold weather.”
One might consider that you should read your own text a little closer. The earlier point made was that in other countries it is as hot as hell for much of the year (in many all year round) which also forces up electricity consumption. Now you may find it hard to follow but some countries rely on air conditioning for much of the year, at least as much as Finland and heating. That too forces up seasonal consumption and prices.
I guess living up north here it’s hard to get your head around but climatic conditions apart from cold winters can influence economies whether its haet, flood prone areas, particularly dry areas or wind swept coastal areas. hey all have roll on effects for an economy.
That’s the point I think was being made earlier.
Comment by Punter — Mon, Nov 26th, 2007 @ 9:48 pm
Effects on an economy, has almost nothing to do with heat or cold. The USA uses more BTU’s and yet has a higher standard of living.
Remind myself; drive the Hummer to increase global warming to help Finland get warm and competative.
Gee smell test again.
Comment by winter, "Yea, Proton Power, now in remission" — Mon, Nov 26th, 2007 @ 10:12 pm
Phil, #17: You could try their home page:
http://www.varkauseagles.com
There was an article about them in HS’s Nyt-liite last week.
Also, there is an informative thread on them on the International Hockey Forum:
http://forums.internationalhockey.net/forumdisplay.php?f=29
Comment by Drakon — Mon, Nov 26th, 2007 @ 10:24 pm
Yeah, the wages of educated Finns are pretty bad, but you have to remember that universities are free, so graduating Finns don’t have huge debt.
Comment by Passer-by — Mon, Nov 26th, 2007 @ 10:34 pm
# 20
Ok quick basics in electric power transmission. Cooler temperature means more resistance in the transmission. That means more power is lost in transmission. This naturally makes a huge difference in the price also. I’m not going any further in this matter, so you just have to learn more about it on your own. You can find some information using google.
It is not just the electricity, the fuel price goes up as well. Almost everything is more expensive due to cold weather. Ships have to break ice so that others can leave/enter the harbour. I bet they charge extra for that. Price goes up, consumption goes up. It is NOT the same thing as the extra power needed in warm countries due to air conditioning. Do energy prices go up due to hot weather? Do they have a lot of production in Alaska? If not then why is this?
Comment by me — Mon, Nov 26th, 2007 @ 11:22 pm
“universities are free, so graduating Finns don’t have huge debt.”
You must be kidding? unless you live with your parents or study in the middle of nowhere in the center of Finland..there is a cost..
Just look at the housing rent cost in the Helsinki region + energy cost + food cost etc…
If they were to put a fee in universities then the country will find hard to attract foreign student…
The country is lacking labour…not educated one..there’s too many in fact (that could explain the low salary? competition? outsourcing?). The ones that the country needs is more about “low” educated one (with no offence)…let’s say more low tech and less high tech. High tech you can be outsource, you just need an internet connection… The low tech : bus driver, construction worker, metal worker, ship builder etc… cannot be outsourced (at best “imported” then the language barrier comes) and generally take low paid job and usually those jobs are not taken by the fin..
Unfortunately Finnish policies in the past decade have made it hard to get more immigrant(although now there is U-Turn, a little and too late. Another mistake was the eu agreed embargo against eastern european to get freely a job in Finland from 2004-2006)
Comment by Housing finland — Mon, Nov 26th, 2007 @ 11:27 pm
let’s start sharing horror stories… PhD EE, 60K€/year
Comment by Anonymous — Tue, Nov 27th, 2007 @ 12:17 am
me: “Yeah, the wages of educated Finns are pretty bad, but you have to remember that universities are free, so graduating Finns don’t have huge debt.”
That’s true for all European countries. Yet nearly all have a higher standard of living than Finland.
Punter: “Now you may find it hard to follow but some countries rely on air conditioning for much of the year”
In the US, air conditioners seem to run non-stop for about 6-month of each year. If you work indoors, then you’ll have no idea of what the weather is like outdoors until you go home. I could never figure out that lifestyle. They don’t try to conserve energy at all.
In Finland, I doubt electricity usage plays any significant part in low-workers’ salaries or low-purchasing power. Rather, it’s the aforementioned ’social democracy’ that causes it. Other countries, like Norway and Denmark, can withstand that type of control economy, but they are net energy suppliers to Europe.
Norway has oil, and Denmark has gas. So they can do any kind of monkey business with their economies (i.e. super-high taxes, government monopolies) and still maintain a reasonable standard of living. Finland can’t.
Comment by Kristian — Tue, Nov 27th, 2007 @ 1:02 am
Yea, lets have Horror stories.
In my case, I was at the front of the line for Cancer treatment. Sorry no Horror story here in the evil USA.
Its nice to be a bill payee, into a medical system, and have front of the line placement all the time.
Comment by winter “Yea, Proton Power, now in remission†— Tue, Nov 27th, 2007 @ 1:43 am
“In the US, air conditioners seem to run non-stop for about 6-month of each year. If you work indoors, then you’ll have no idea of what the weather is like outdoors until you go home. I could never figure out that lifestyle. They don’t try to conserve energy at all.”
Ass wrong. I work in commercial real estate. You better believe people try to conserve energy as much as they can. Your enlightened comment would be the same as me saying that in Finland in the winter people have no idea how cold it is outside because they have the heat running no stop for 8 months of the year. They don’t try to conserve energy at all. I don’t get that lifestyle.
Me - You have no idea what you are talking about.
Comment by maaksalaatikko — Tue, Nov 27th, 2007 @ 1:45 am
#25: The cheapest HOAS flats are about 150€/month. If some snobs are too good to live in them, that is really their problem. Electricity is about as cheap as you can get. Food is admittedly expensive, especially if you count beer.
Alcohol IS a factor in cost of living indexes, which are used to determine pensions among other things.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Tue, Nov 27th, 2007 @ 1:55 am
Vodka is cheep. I can get a bottle for 2 bucks. Bad news, it comes in a plastic bottle.
Note to self: Rum is better. Dancing with 30 drunkin sailors id better.
Comment by winter “Yea, Proton Power, now in remission†— Tue, Nov 27th, 2007 @ 2:22 am
“latest US satellite figures showing temperatures having fallen since 1998, declining in 2007 to a 1983 level ”
darn
cant run the Hummer, and get the desired effect.
Gee
Comment by winter “Yea, Proton Power, now in remission†— Tue, Nov 27th, 2007 @ 3:19 am
i can’t comment on finnish health care since i haven’t been sick here yet. however, last spring it came to my attention that i needed gum surgery. i elected to have it done in the private sector. 175€ out of pocket(kela paid the other 40%). i compared prices after the fact with my cousin who is an oral surgeon in iowa. according to him the same procedure would have cost me $900 bucks back home, with the family hookup. i’m guessing medical costs finland versus u.s.a. would be similar in the private sector. it does annoy me that i have to go to the pharmacy to buy aspirin, and only get 20 pills at a time, but hey, life is pretty fucking good here! side note-when my appendix blew up in mpls, i had to wait for hours behind crackheads with gunshot wounds, because i was sufffering from a “mere” stomach ache. after toxic shock, blood transfusion, and major surgery, my bank account suffered a “minor” $4000 hemmorage.
Comment by willie — Tue, Nov 27th, 2007 @ 5:28 am
#24 you obviously have little to no understanding of the stress heat causes on production and distribution of electricity. Each year heat causes malfunctions and blowouts in transformers and other critical features of supply. This is a reoccuring problem not to mention other related factors such as forest fires etc. All of these heat related issues combine to create difficulties in electricity supply in warmer countries much like the cold does here. Just another often forgotten or misunderstood fact when we complain about prices and difficulties of living in the cold. The other side of the coin is much the same.
Comment by Punter — Tue, Nov 27th, 2007 @ 7:54 am
Long time ago I had an accident while riding bike and had to visit emergency by ambulance. I got basic treatment(thats all I needed fortunately) very fast (may be I was lucky as it was 5 am) and came home by walking 5 km as I didn’t have money for taxi. Later I didn’t even pay the ambulance bill, I don’t know how or who paid it, that was 7 years ago. Meaning things went in a way that I cant complain.
Correct me if I am wrong. If people here are talking about tax, they must be working. If they are working, they must have their own medical services which is fast and free. At least I had been always having excellent services from our health care place. I personally don’t like the digits of the tax that I pay but (when we talk about health care in here) in my knowledge most of the people(who’s opinion counts) I know here feels OK about their health care. It would be really nice to pay less tax and make the life cheaper here but health care is not really an issue in that case. Need to think more to have some break through ideas and also to share them with right people (otherwise its worthless to talk about it). Comparing two different countries on same ground is very complicated as there are so many different issues effecting the issue. For example national attitude, ambition .. these kind of socio-cultural issues sometime have great impact on major decisions/strategies/policies besides hard facts and figures.
Comment by I wish I could — Tue, Nov 27th, 2007 @ 10:09 am
Öh, tämä täytyy kirjoittaa suomeksi. Siis YLE on nyt julkaissut haastatttelun, jossa kerrotaan vuona 2002 julkaistuun tutkimukseen viitaten, että peruskoulun (comprehensive school) käynneet tienaavat 16% enemmän kuin muut, MUTTA sen sijaan Suomessa korkeasti koulutetut (Finns with higher education) tienaaavat 20% vähemmän kuin muut eu-laiset.
Yeah so, uh … now I got it, why not get something else to do to whoever it was who wrote that piece of “news”.
Comment by Anonymous — Tue, Nov 27th, 2007 @ 10:47 am
OK, what I think the artist who wrote piece had in mind (and wanted to distort?) is something like: “higher education in the EU results on average into 16% higher salaries, while in Finland the percentage is only 13% (20% less). Yeah, other interpretations are possible.
Comment by Anonymous — Tue, Nov 27th, 2007 @ 11:11 am
et’s start sharing horror stories… PhD EE, 60K€/year
Then start sharing salaries for doctors in the states, that initial schooling investment quickly pays off!
Comment by Phil — Tue, Nov 27th, 2007 @ 11:15 am
# 27 said -> me: “Yeah, the wages of educated Finns are pretty bad, but you have to remember that universities are free, so graduating Finns don’t have huge debt.â€Â
That was not my line.
# 29 “Me - You have no idea what you are talking about.”
Explain.
# 34
I do understand that there are some problems in the power transmission in hot countries. What makes the difference is the increased resistance PLUS the failures in transmission due to cold weather. Not only we get the similar problems hot countries have but also increased price. Then again I’m not an expert in these issues, this was more or less just a guess to explain some of the reasons why things are like they are. Energy tends to cost more during the cold season and the fuel consumption increases when it’s cold.
The location of Finland must make some difference also. The countries which have direct access to the oceans, have the advantage in transport. You did know that transportation costs money? We can’t compete for example with the USA, even if the production costs would be equal, we have the disadvantage in transportation costs. Hence, we need to low down production costs so that the price would be the same after the logistics phase.
!!! Here’s an interesting picture !!!
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/86/Gdp_nominal_and_ppp_2005_world_map_single_colour.png
What I see in that picture, the small countries with a difficult location seem to have low GDP where as big countries with a better location have a high GDP. Does the govermental system have an affect? Just look at China compared to USA, Germany, UK and France. The chinese are well known for their democracy and freedom.
!! Here’s another interesting picture !!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:GDP_nominal_per_capita_world_map_IMF_figures_for_year_2006.png
Finland bravely marked with same color as Australia, UK, Germany, France and Japan. I think that kinda supports my side on the matter, size matters as does the location. Small population + bad location = not good.
But some of you seem to have made your mind, it’s the government and nothing else. End of discussion then.
Comment by me — Tue, Nov 27th, 2007 @ 11:28 am
Well, the economic growth is often explained by three or four factors: money, technology, and human capital plus social capital, which is the fourth and often omitted by those idiots who don’t like anything with “social” in it.
The government has something to do with all of those either positively or negatively, sometimes less, sometimes more. In countries like Finland the state is clearly a positive force … or did somebody think that the Finns as individuals are by nature so superior that Finland ranks in the top ten in most international rankings?
Come to think it, perhaps they are pretty superior. The Finns are after all the most intelligent people on earth:
http://groups.uni-paderborn.de/rindermann/materialien/PublikationsPDFs/07EJP.pdf
Treat Punter as nice as you’d treat a child, by the way, he’s not a Finn after all.
Comment by Anonymous — Tue, Nov 27th, 2007 @ 12:10 pm
If there are long queues to the State’s hospitals then go to Pulssi. It ain’t that hard and complicated.
Comment by Mikael — Tue, Nov 27th, 2007 @ 12:47 pm
me: “Yeah, the wages of educated Finns are pretty bad, but you have to remember that universities are free, so graduating Finns don’t have huge debt.â€Â
Kristian:”That’s true for all European countries. Yet nearly all have a higher standard of living than Finland.”
Kristian, is your “Europe” comprised of only the oldest, richest members of the EU? If you count in the “New”, Central-Eastern Europe, both your claims are well off.
Not all countries, even in Western Europe, provide free education. There are various fees for tuition, living, etc. For example in Britain, student loan amounts are well above the Finnish numbers. I presume there, as in some other “high loan” countries people are, after graduating, not for several years in any better position than their Finnis counterparts even though their pay would be significantly higher.
Also, not nearly all European countries have higher living standards - even in terms of the narrow definition of “real net spending power” less than half of them do. Spending power does not take into account indirect government support, which raises the real living standards in the Nordic countries above those nominally at the same level, if only measured in spending power.
“Norway and Denmark… can do any kind of monkey business with their economies (i.e. super-high taxes, government monopolies) and still maintain a reasonable standard of living. Finland can’t.”
This is mainly a matter of perception. You say Finland does not have a “reasonable standard of living”? Many people, some of them even foreigners, might well disagree with you.
Comment by Drakon — Tue, Nov 27th, 2007 @ 1:00 pm
I admire Kristian. Most people who can’t make decent living feel ashamed and don’t speak up. He’s one of the few who, never mind what, carries on complaining that one of the strongest economies in the world is a total failure. That shows an ability to fantasize worth a parrot stamp … hell, let’s make it two.
Vote for Veikko Vennamo and one day the state will make us, too, rich, that’s what I and Kristian think.
Comment by Hölömö-Pekka — Tue, Nov 27th, 2007 @ 1:25 pm
Here’s, by the way Kristian’s Europe (countries with a higher GDP per capita than Finland): Luxembourg, Norway, Iceland, Switzerland, Denmark, Ireland, Sweden, Netherlands
In my book Europe was bigger, but who am I to challenge Kristian’s wise words?
In the whole world Finland is about 13-14th richest industrialized country GDP-wise, which makes me cry of shame. And the way the economy is growing we’ll be the even richer in the more recent lists.
Only five countries in the EU produce more things and services than Finland … and of those five two or three are more or less city states. So the one haunting fact remains: only the Swedes have a more vibrant economy (if we don’t consider the Irish Europeans, and I definitely don’t). That makes me cry, too.
Vote for the Green party! Less money, more time off!
Comment by Hölömö-Pekka — Tue, Nov 27th, 2007 @ 1:52 pm
Well, before shedding tears: purchasing-power-wise we’ve passed the Swedes by about €1000/year/capita. Hah! (By “we” I don’t mean Kristian because his purchasing power is even below that of the Germans.)
Comment by Hölömö-Pekka — Tue, Nov 27th, 2007 @ 2:12 pm
And what’s more, and I know you want to see these tidbits coming, the tax burden in Sweden is something like 10% higher, hmm, häh, fucking 4000 euros. That plus the higher GDP means almost €500 more to spend on cheap H&M rags a month. But don’t you worry Swedes! Compared to, say, Germans or Australians you’re still doing fine.
Comment by Hölömö-Pekka — Tue, Nov 27th, 2007 @ 3:08 pm
Ever wondered why:
Finns drive around in old bangers
Why there’s nothing to do In Finland
Reasons:
Low wages + High rates of tax = Low disposable income
It’s not viable to run health clubs, theme parks etc the rely on consumers with disposable income to burn.
Comment by Anonymous — Tue, Nov 27th, 2007 @ 3:19 pm
Drakon: “Kristian, is your “Europe†comprised of only the oldest, richest members of the EU?”
Yes, of course I’m talking about western Europe, but segments of eastern Europe now have higher living standards than in Finland, when you consider educated professionals in relevant fields (I don’t think the sociology majors are fairing all that well there, but engineers, software developers, etc. are).
You can see it very plainly when you drive through—e.g.Czech R.—as I did a few-weeks-ago. They have newer houses and nicer cars than Finland. Same ‘free’ education and healthcare.
The wealth isn’t evenly distributed yet, but for those who work in relevant jobs, the lifestyle is higher. For those who haven’t transitioned from the old mindset, it’ll never change.
The biggest difference is in eastern Germany. For most people, the standard of living IS definitely higher than Finland’s already. There’s really no question about that one. That doesn’t mean there aren’t still pockets of poverty, but it’s not very bad like before.
Drakon: “Spending power does not take into account indirect government support, which raises the real living standards in the Nordic countries”
Hmmm. I don’t see indirect government support helping Finland’s standard of living. Due to it’s proximity (24-hours by inexpensive container ship) Finland should be tied-in to Germany’s economy and have the same standard of living. But it doesn’t.
It’s due to the taxes and monopolies.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/tax_tot_tax_as_of_gdp-taxation-total-as-of-gdp
Comment by Kristian — Tue, Nov 27th, 2007 @ 3:22 pm
Well Finns drive old cars because the tax on them is, or was, too high, and you’ve got nothing to do in Finland because you’re so annoying, nobody wants to be around you, honestly. Then again Finland is soon among the ten richest countries in the world purchasing-power-wise … and that I said just to annoy you some more.
Comment by Hölömö-Pekka — Tue, Nov 27th, 2007 @ 3:28 pm
# 44
I add, considering that Finland is only 90 years old, we have nothing to be ashamed of!! I think the bubble has burst, the greatness of the U.S. economy is mostly due to world war 2. It was easy to build an economy superpower when Europe was technically a crater and other countries did not yet have any technology to sell. Just look at France, Japan and Germany now, China soon to follow. And what about the current situation of U.S. economy?? The Pound is worth two USD and Euro is worth 1,5 USD. How can that be if the U.S. system is perfect? I am very keen to hear your excuses =)
Comment by me — Tue, Nov 27th, 2007 @ 3:30 pm
Yes, Kristian, I’m sure your “driving-around method” will soon replace the stupid GDP and purchasing-power comparisons. I mean, what kind of an economist wouldn’t rather be driving around in sunny Hungary than computing that silly price and production data.
Comment by Hölömö-Pekka — Tue, Nov 27th, 2007 @ 3:34 pm
Oh yes, and for anyone who thinks Sweden is such a great country, why does both husband and wife need to work there?
In Germany only one income is needed. Even in eastern Germany, that lifestyle is starting now. The prices for everything are dirt-cheap compared to anything in the Nordics. It is easy to have really low living expenses in Germany, and to save money.
Comment by Kristian — Tue, Nov 27th, 2007 @ 3:38 pm
And the the tiny flats in Finland. You can live better for the same money in Germany. I have residences in both countries, that’ how I know.
Regarding consumer prices… You have a wide range of products and prices. You don’t have to spend 7-euro each time you need something to eat. Many times 2.5-euro is enough. Those types of daily savings amount to thousands each year.
Sorry, I’d explain better, but I’m in a hurry.
Comment by Kristian — Tue, Nov 27th, 2007 @ 3:48 pm
Ha ha, one more thing… No private medical insurance supplement needed in Germany. The normal system is sufficient. Everyone has their own doctor, so no anonymous terveyskeskus visits.
Comment by Kristian — Tue, Nov 27th, 2007 @ 3:52 pm
# 47
Health clubs and theme parks?? We have free access to something like this:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b3/Päijänne_and_päijätsalo.jpg
http://www.arcticacademy.fi/revontulet.php?kieli=en
Who would pay for something we already have for free? Nothing to do here… yeah right.
Comment by me — Tue, Nov 27th, 2007 @ 4:13 pm
Kristian was in a hurry but had time to write: “Ha ha, one more thing… No private medical insurance supplement needed in Germany. The normal system is sufficient. Everyone has their own doctor, so no anonymous terveyskeskus visits.”
Next, when he has more time, he could explain what the hell that is supposed to mean. I don’t have any private insurance, in fact, I don’t know anybody who has. But, true, I don’t have my “own doctor”, I have two like most Finns, one at the local health center, one via my job in a private firm. Then again, Kristian seems to be particularly poor which probably means that he doesn’t have a job. That means that he has only one, but for some reason he thinks he’s got none.
Comment by Hölömö-Pekka — Tue, Nov 27th, 2007 @ 4:21 pm
Kristian, where do you live? We all have our own doctor here as well!
If anyone is in Helsinki today, and can get to Pasila in the next hour, there is a protest outside Yle’s studios to stop the cuts, amongst other of Radio X3M. For the first time in years, I am actually going to go to protest (partly as my son studying here has convinced me to).
Comment by JG — Tue, Nov 27th, 2007 @ 4:27 pm
#55- Wow, northern lights and a lake I take it (as the link didn’t work but noticed Päijänne.) Who doesn’t have that. That’s the problem here, someone suggest something like “there’s nothing to do and we need more entertainment” and a Finn will always come back with an answer like that. How many people do you know that sit around with their heads up looking for the few times a year the northern lights are visible? What’s the big deal about sitting by a lake looking at a tree? There’s still nothing to do. It just means you usually do it by yourself (or almost) there by the lake………… BORING
Comment by Punter — Tue, Nov 27th, 2007 @ 4:35 pm
#55 That’s the problem with you stupid people that somebody says something and then a stupid person comes back with a stupid comment. Yes, nothing in Finland, no tourist attractions, no restaurants, no festivals, no nature, just vast emptiness
Comment by Hölömö-Pekka — Tue, Nov 27th, 2007 @ 4:49 pm
# 58
The link works, just copy it to the address bar.
Theme parks and health clubs it is then. After we have built a dozen more of those, will you guys stop complaining? Heh, doubt it. Whatever we do, we suck, just like we have always done. There is absolutely nothing to see here in Finland. No exotic animals, no nightlife, no breathtaking landscapes, nothing. Just a cold, dark, BORING country full of emptiness. End of story.
Comment by me — Tue, Nov 27th, 2007 @ 4:52 pm
“end of story”
what about the raindeer, that walk on the roads, to become road kill?
Now thats something to go see
Comment by winter, "Yea, Proton Power, now in remission" — Tue, Nov 27th, 2007 @ 4:55 pm
is all your cups half empty?
Come one the world is there to take, and take, and enjoy. Not the other way around. Thats why I have 3 boats, 3 cars (yep one is gone now), and a SAUNA to like the good life in.
Rum helps to.
Comment by winter, "Yea, Proton Power, now in remission" — Tue, Nov 27th, 2007 @ 5:03 pm
#60 Me, you said that. I just don’t see the big deal and yes, actually the landscapes and lack of wildlife etc is boring. Doesn’t really bother me though as I didn’t come here for the animals and landscape but again, seeing as though you said it, BORING.
Boring can have it’s advantages too
Comment by Punter — Tue, Nov 27th, 2007 @ 5:12 pm
#62
Yeah exactly. Someone from Spain or Italy might consider..
-180,000+ lakes,
- sauna
- lakeside sauna
- reindeers
- moose
- brown bears
- wolves
- a bar made of ice at the downtown of Helsinki http://jpatokal.iki.fi/photo/travel/Finland/Helsinki/IceBar/Packed2_Large.JPG
- skiing and snowboarding
- ice castles
- northern lights
- days when the sun never sets/rises
- snowmobile safaris
- hiking in the wilderness of Lapland
- Sami people
- Finnish relaxed style nightlife
..very exotic. Then again I might be wrong and Finland really is just boring emptiness.
Comment by me — Tue, Nov 27th, 2007 @ 5:24 pm
” I don’t have my “own doctorâ€Â, I have two like most Finns, one at the local health center, one via my job in a private firm.”
There doesn’t seem like much of a choice in Finland. I haven’t used medical services here much, but I’ve some experience with the random health center system. Sometimes it’s a 25 year old kid practicing to become a doctor, sometimes its a real doctor. Usually there’s a long wait. Having a doctor at ones work is good - if you happen to like that individual. If you don’t, then you are out of luck.
Comment by ameripat — Tue, Nov 27th, 2007 @ 6:23 pm
” I don’t have my “own doctorâ€Â, I have two like most Finns, one at the local health center, one via my job in a private firm.”
There doesn’t seem like much of a choice in Finland. I haven’t used medical services here much, but I’ve some experience with the random health center system. Sometimes it’s a 25 year old kid practicing to become a doctor, sometimes its a real doctor. Usually there’s a long wait. Having a doctor at ones work is good - if you happen to like that individual. If you don’t, then you are out of luck..
Comment by ameripat — Tue, Nov 27th, 2007 @ 6:23 pm
Finland is sort of a “one size fits all” society. That’s probably why Finns don’t think about these things very much. Having choice of which doctor to visit isn’t important.
Comment by ameripat — Tue, Nov 27th, 2007 @ 6:26 pm
Spain? Lets remove your ski/winter sports theme because the Spanish would hardly travel to Finland for winter sports. They have far better facilities in their homeland.
In fact, to save time I suggest you just follow the link and learn about the lakes, wilderness, nature etc of Spain.
http://www.iberianature.com/
As for the famous winter holiday of Finland, with the exception of the darkness here, Finland has little to offer in terms of a winter holiday. The snow is minimal and the skiing facilities poor, even by our standard in Australia. Get it into your heads that there are far more interesting winter/ski holiday options than Finland.
Another one, where the hell doesn’t have a frozen bar to drink vodka in nowadys? It seems one is opening somewhere in the world almost every other day.
Really, apart from the long/short seasonal days, your list only shows the shortfalls of Finland in terms of attracting the tourist dollar.
Comment by Punter — Tue, Nov 27th, 2007 @ 6:31 pm
# 68
Except now you failed to realise I meant more than one thing added together. Hey, what exactly is the big deal in Spain or Australia? Boring bull fighting competitions or even more boring kangaroos? Give me a break. I can experience everything there is in Spain or Australia, elsewhere. Africa anyone? I can xperience all the exotic things of [place a country here] elsewhere too. Now let me ask again, if you put atleast half of those things I mentioned together, how many countries fit in the description?
It says quite a lot about you, when you have nothing left to critisize, you desperately grab the only thing there is. Better skiing facilities. You have lots of saunas in Spain/Australia too? Santa’s village? Reindeer? Brown bears? Wolves? Snowmobile safaris? Ice castles? None? Really? How strange.
Comment by me — Tue, Nov 27th, 2007 @ 7:08 pm
@25
“You must be kidding? unless you live with your parents or study in the middle of nowhere in the center of Finland..there is a cost..”
I live in Jyväskylä, which is in “middle of nowhere in the center of Finland” and from my own experience (which you most likely don’t have), I can say living isn’t free here either. So please, don’t make such idiotic comments in the future.
Comment by Central Finland Hillbilly — Tue, Nov 27th, 2007 @ 7:12 pm
Where to start? Lots of sauna? Yep, you can find them. Santa’s village? Nope but plenty of successful theme parks? All of which are lacking here. Deer? Yep. Broen bears? Nope but thousands of other species to make up for it that can’t be found here. Wolves? Nope but dingoes yes. Snowmobile safaris? Yep. Ice castles? Every winter.
Now go look up the things to do in Australia or Spain and when you’ve finished looking (in about 30 years time) get back to me if you have any further questions. Finland Mecca for tourists? Give me a break.
Comment by Punter — Tue, Nov 27th, 2007 @ 7:23 pm
# 71
You are a hilarious bloke. You cannot find many authentic finnish saunas in Australia or Spain and that is confirmed by every Finn who live in these countries and the other way around. There’s a good chance there is not one authentic lakeside sauna in either country. Successful theme parks? Steve Irwin’s park is the only widely known. Reindeer is not deer. If one wishes to see a wild brown bear or a wolf, there is a safari for that in Finland. Hardcore tourists can go “bushwalking” with a serious risk of having a bear encounter or stepping on a poisonous snake. Snowmobile safaris? You have a link for one? Ok you nailed me with the ice castle. Link a picture of one in Spain/Oz.
Things you can do in Spain/Oz?? You can drink cheap lagers and gaze at the sand. Something we can and will do in Finland every summer. Spain/Australia Mecca for tourists? Give me a break.
Comment by me — Tue, Nov 27th, 2007 @ 7:49 pm
And Punter’s ramblings show the shorfalls of his brain of attracting thoughts. Finland has naturally thousands of tourist attractions, some of them good and some of them not so good, naturally. Even you must understand that everybody knows it, nobody’s going to believe your lies. No theme parks? Have you ever actually visited Finland? What’s your problem? Idiotism?
Lonely planet chose this year Finland one of its top places to visit. The readers of Guardian have chosen Finland the best place to visit and so on.
http://helecon3.hkkk.fi/pdf/hseother/b67.pdf
90% of foreign tourists were satisfied with Finland.
Australia? Well, perhaps if you’re an anthropologist interested in hillbillies.
Comment by Pölöhö-Pekka — Tue, Nov 27th, 2007 @ 7:52 pm
http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varkaus_Eagles
Comment by anon — Tue, Nov 27th, 2007 @ 7:56 pm
# 71
I must add it’s not just the things you can see, it’s the experience as a whole. The culture, the people, the what-to-do/see mentioned and the last but not least: fresh air. All of those things combined make the expericence, it’s not just one icy rock in the middle of the nowhere. It’s the big picture. The big picture is the thing people see in Australia, Africa, USA and Europe. This has by far been the funniest conversation I’ve had in a while. Cheers mate.
Comment by me — Tue, Nov 27th, 2007 @ 8:03 pm
Well, I think Punter is a little harsh on Finland’s tourist attractions. Finland does have theme parks, but I don’t think that is where we should be aiming for our tourists. Lots of people have theme parks, what is more unique is that we have some of the most unspoilt and undeveloped wilderness areas left in Europe. I suppose less people want to visit such sites than say Disneyland Paris, but it’s still not worth understating even if it does not have such widespread popular appeal.
But in fairness to Punter, we don’t have the best ski resorts - that is true, although it’s more to do with geography than anything else which is little to do with any failings in Finnish society! Sweden and Norway are graced with more hills at lower latitudes - and indeed, their northern regions are more populated too, which may add something to it. I have to confess to often having taken our “major” downhill winter holidays in Sweden (and indeed Norway a couple of times).
Comment by JG — Tue, Nov 27th, 2007 @ 8:10 pm
# 76
Let’s make clear that by skiing and snowboarding I meant the hills which are right next to a city. Like Messilä which is 10 mins from the city by car. There’s lots of these in here.
http://www.geocities.com/goldy_inbox/ilya_04_12_13_1.jpg
Comment by me — Tue, Nov 27th, 2007 @ 8:26 pm
Bushwalking, hardcore in Finland? Risk an encounter with a bear or be bitten by a poisonous snake? You have them too? Ah, thats right, the little kyy????
Now, what was that about the funniest conversation? You really are a fool with little knowledge of what you’re talking about. Finland a tourist destination? Give me a break.
Comment by Punter — Tue, Nov 27th, 2007 @ 9:03 pm
By the way dipstick, wanna show or compare the numbers concerning foreign visitors, revenue spent by tourists, people employed in tourism, value to economy or any figure that you Finns are always so keen on? Finland as compared to Spain or Australia? However you cut it, this is definately one where not even the most hardcore nationalist could argue with success.
You are the weakest link. GOODBYE
Comment by Punter — Tue, Nov 27th, 2007 @ 9:07 pm
While I’m at it (kicking you while your down) the “people” you met that complained about a lack of authentic Finnish saunas in Australia probably also complained about a lack of mämmi or Juhla Mocca coffee too. Really lived the experience. And then you wonder why we laugh.
Comment by Punter — Tue, Nov 27th, 2007 @ 9:13 pm
Punter, who ever said here that Finland was the “Mecca for tourists”?! No one said that. Only that we have something worth coming to see here, even so called tourist attractions. Are you actually saying that we have NOTHING interesting here in Finland?
Comment by Pave — Tue, Nov 27th, 2007 @ 10:25 pm
According to Wikipedia Finland is visited by about 4 million and Australia by about 4,5 million tourists. Per capita Finland is far bigger tourist destination than Australia, which is understandable: there are only so many anthropologists interested in hillbillies. Not even the kind of hard-core nationalist like Punter can deny that.
Thank you for a few funny moments and good night.
Comment by Pölhö-Pekka — Tue, Nov 27th, 2007 @ 10:37 pm
Finland should be the summer Mecca. Lots of Lakes, boating, hiking, etc.
Well, you all would need some Billionaires to do it, so I guess that one is off the table.
Gee, do I have to explain why?
Comment by winter, "Yea, Proton Power, now in remission" — Tue, Nov 27th, 2007 @ 10:38 pm
Are you actually saying that we have NOTHING interesting here in Finland?
He wouldn’t be Punter, a typical ignorant Australian hillbilly, if he wasn’t saying exactly that. Well, that and apparently too many blows to the head while playing rugby.
Comment by Pölhö-Pekka — Tue, Nov 27th, 2007 @ 10:46 pm
Finland is a land of great natural beauty. However, it is far away, very, very expensive and cold. I think Finland´s strength as a tourist destination has long relied on special interest travel. Sports teams, groups going over for conventions, meetings, stopovers for tourists on their way to Russia, and different kinds of business travel, especially incentive travel.
When people go to Finland and travel there as a group they can get a little better deal on accommodations, transfers and food. I believe Finns are very good at arranging things and very reliable if not the most service oriented of all.
Comment by Jack — Tue, Nov 27th, 2007 @ 10:50 pm
#82- Officially 5.1 million in 2006 forecast to 5.7million for 2007. By the way, that covers “real” tourists, not drunken visitors who come in on boats from Sweden and Estonia for 5 hours or those Chinese and Indians counted in Finland’s figures when they use Helsinki-Vantaa for transit. Dumbass. As for money spent, AUD 21 billion in 2006, employs 464500 people and is worth 3.9% of our GDP. So I guess there are that many anthropologists interested in Hillbillies afterall.
I can just see people saying, “nah lets not go to Australia, I’ve heard there is so much more to see and do in Finland.”
Who’s you script writer? I hope you are not employing those writers that are on strike in The US? Now that would be naughty. So Letterman/Leno you guys.
Comment by Punter — Tue, Nov 27th, 2007 @ 10:57 pm
Year 2006 5,3 million tourist spending at least one night in Finland and growing fast. Still a lot more per capita than in Australia, dumbass. How does it feel to be never right?
Comment by Pölhö-Pekka — Tue, Nov 27th, 2007 @ 11:26 pm
Jack: “Finland is a land of great natural beauty. However, it is far away, very, very expensive and cold.”
Germans see Finland as exactly how you describe: a country with beautiful nature, but high socialist prices.
For many, it’s a novelty to visit the northern part of the continent, mainly because it’s less crowded and stressful than what they are accustomed to down in c. Europe.
But yes, Finland does have a reputation for being overpriced. Hotels, restaurants—and even food in stores—are far more expensive than in other nature destinations like Bavaria (Munich excluded, the surrounding countryside and Alps are totally inexpensive).
To compensate, many Germans (and other Europeans) rent cabins in Finland (always a good value, when planned in advance) and then bring all their food and beverages with them in large ice-chests. Hence, it’s a nature vacation; not a spending vacation.
Jack: “I believe Finns are very good at arranging things and very reliable if not the most service oriented of all.”
I agree.
Comment by Kristian — Tue, Nov 27th, 2007 @ 11:29 pm
willie:
“side note-when my appendix blew up in mpls, i had to wait for hours behind crackheads with gunshot wounds, because i was sufffering from a “mere†stomach ache. after toxic shock, blood transfusion, and major surgery, my bank account suffered a “minor†$4000 hemmorage.”
Right, so there’s the wonderful private system. Thanks but no thanks.
Phil’s account of the same in the evil welfare state:
http://www.finlandforthought.net/2006/04/24/finnish-nurses-should-get-paid-more/
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Tue, Nov 27th, 2007 @ 11:32 pm
Who’s not right? I said more visitors, more popular, more to do, employing more people and spending more money. Right? WTF is there to do here anyway?
“Spending at least one night.” Yeah, on Silja Line or one of the other Finnish registered ships, in Lapeenranta or a night at the airport hotel on their way out to their real destination.
Finland may be many things, some of them even ok, but one thing it is NOT is a more popular, famous, well known holiday destination for international tourism. To think otherwise just shows you how poorly you people deal with reality.
Comment by Punter — Tue, Nov 27th, 2007 @ 11:33 pm
Re: #85 - I forgot to add that Finland has to try to attract people from more affluent countries. Those have the means to go to Finland.
Comment by Jack — Tue, Nov 27th, 2007 @ 11:38 pm
“side note-when my appendix blew up in mpls, i had to wait for hours behind crackheads with gunshot wounds, because i was sufffering from a “mere†stomach ache. after toxic shock, blood transfusion, and major surgery, my bank account suffered a “minor†$4000 hemmorage.â€Â
Hmmmm… I wonder how Finland’s medical system would fair with crack dealers shooting each other.
Somehow I don’t think that’s completely a problem with the medical system.
You’ve got point about the bank account though.
Comment by Kristian — Tue, Nov 27th, 2007 @ 11:38 pm
If you put “more [something]” into your text it means that you’re comparing something to something else. Well, it would mean if you weren’t a typical ignorant hillbilly from … what was that country again? You know the one middle of nowhere where people can’t write properly even in their own mother tongue. Ah yes, Australia!
Anyway, you can carry on with the strawmen by yourself, it was after all you who invented them. Let me just say that Finland is clearly a bigger tourist destination than Australia, and people leave the country satisfied.
Comment by Pölhö-Pekka — Tue, Nov 27th, 2007 @ 11:46 pm
Personally if I have a choice I would not visit Australia. I would prefer Finland from exoticness point. From economic point I would probably choose Spain, Turkey or Egypt. So if those figures are correct, many people are coming here because they are specifically interested about Finland. And also those figures don’t tell anything about the exoticness of a country. Tourism in Thailand is comparable (?) to Australia doesn’t make Thailand more interesting than Finland.
I have experienced interestingly that when you are a foreigner, you are never completely happy living in that country. It’s a positive thing, meaning you still love your home country and miss it all the time. You have some good reason to stay out of your home and duel positioning is causing some stress in your mind meaning you have difficulties to accept the reality.
But on the other hand it can be also quite annoying from my guest (?) to hear how bad I and my house are all the time who is living in my home. I would rather prefer to hear some positive criticism from him which might help me to improve the situation or find some equilibrium. So at some point if I want him just to leave so I don’t have to listen all the time some complain even though some time it’s true, it might be not so justified but I may still want it just because I am a human. And if he does not have a place to live, I will probably still let him stay but not be so delightful.
P.S: I am a foreigner here too and I don’t like many things here like may other (even Finnish). But I usually try not to complain about it unless I have some better proposal.
Comment by I see beauty — Wed, Nov 28th, 2007 @ 12:31 am
Gee, I had Proton Cancer treatment. My co-pay so far has been less than $300.00 as I had great insurance.
Now the cost to live in California, was about $3000 for room and board during my 3 months in the microwave oven. I did pay that.
So why does your system cost so much? My insurance paid the amount equal to a Hummer 2, for my Proton zapping, no stand in line, experience.
Comment by winter “Yea, Proton Power, now in remission†— Wed, Nov 28th, 2007 @ 12:49 am
Freeridin’ - “Alcohol IS a factor in cost of living indexes, which are used to determine pensions among other things.”
You know, if it was any other country I’d say that you were having us on. Well, I guess it beats giving them pharmaceuticals in the daily mail.
Also the willie dude was clearly using the public system at a city hospital in the downtown area…and didn’t qualify for it so had to pay out of pocket due to having no private insurance.
Punter - Hey, man, be fair, the world’s largest coffee cup collection/museum is in Finland.
Hoho-Pekka - “Let me just say that Finland is clearly a bigger tourist destination than Australia, and people leave the country satisfied.”
Sure, if you’re a Finn. Have you really travelled around Finland…lately? Aside from the novelty of seeing Lapland mostly snow-free in early December, Santaland was a absolute joke and the big deal in the towns up north was for the kids to drive their car up and down the main ‘drag’ all night long. Generally people come via the cruise ships and only spend an afternoon/evening in Helsinki. Finland is a nice place to visit if your idea of fun is, well, not doing much of anything and not being bothered by anyone while doing it. Otherwise, there are a lot nicer places with much cheaper hotels (and booze) and warmer climates for such things.
Comment by hfb — Wed, Nov 28th, 2007 @ 1:10 am
Actually, I’m surprised having gotten around to my skimming of the daily news that nobody mentioned that in the whopping 20 euro per month raise deal the nurses got that part of that deal would be that there would be no additional staffing until 2010.
Those lines, they ain’t gonna get shorter, that’s for sure.
Comment by hfb — Wed, Nov 28th, 2007 @ 2:15 am
“lines, they ain’t gonna get shorter,”
the private sector to the rescue.
Again
Gee
Comment by winter “Yea, Proton Power, now in remission†— Wed, Nov 28th, 2007 @ 3:21 am
Yep, what Finland needs is a strip mall within every square mile loaded with at least six burger joints. Throw in a Six Flags theme park and an average American will be in heaven. That way even Winnie would enjoy life… driving his wanna-be all terrain vehicle from mall to mall until he has to visit a hospital to treat gun shot wounds he got from wearing a blue cap instead of a red one… only to find out about the small print about his insurance covering only “wounds from 9mm or smaller” and gets thrown out. Granted the US has a ton of cool places to see, not to mention unbelievable natural beauty, but that description fits covers about 99% of the country… same goes for Australia. Nothing to do in Finland?? No theme parks, ha ha! Only an American/Australian would actually spend a weeks vacation in a theme park. You should check out Vegas cause you can see Paris, Venice, Egypt, not to mention ancient Rome and the freakin pirates without missing a single all you can eat burger meal… all with just taking one flight
Shit I might overdose on culture 
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, Nov 28th, 2007 @ 3:40 am
Willie
“side note-when my appendix blew up in mpls, i had to wait for hours behind crackheads with gunshot wounds, because i was sufffering from a “mere†stomach ache. after toxic shock, blood transfusion, and major surgery, my bank account suffered a “minor†$4000 hemmorage.â€Â
Let’s be honest here. Tell the whole story.
I live in Mpls. You went to Hennipen County Medical Center which is a NOT a private hospital. It’s public. Most of the people who go their are on medical assistance which is FREE government health care. (It’s not called insurance by the way, we would want them counted amongst the insured Americans) HCMC is also free for most of the people who use it (if you bother to fill out the paperwork, etc.). IF you filled out the paperwork and you STILL had to pay that means that your income was high enough to pay for private insurance but you choose to take the risk and spend your money on something else. Probably beer and other entertainment type things. Maybe you had a 50″ flat screen TV for your Playstation in place of health insurance, I know many people who do.
If you are single, healthy and have no children; more than likely this is the case. They should have charged you $10,000. You whine that you have no insurance, which is dirt cheap for young single healthy people, and you blow $1000 plus a month on nothing worthwhile. I’m saying this for sure is you, but I’ve got a good feeling judging by your posts that it is.
If you actually couldn’t afford insurance and you were in mpls, then you could have purchased Minnesota Care; which is state private care funded by state subsidy. It’s good coverage and very inexpensive. I payed $28 a month for my family of four while I was making $35,000 a year. If you passed this option up then you must have been to lazy to apply for it.
NOTE TO FINNS: Most Americans are not very good at working the system, which to Finns is 2nd nature. Many people pass on government assistance because they don’t “jaksa” to apply for it. They’ed rather gamble or have foolish pride and won’t take government help. Chalk it up to stupid Americaness, it’ll make it easier for you to understand. (I’m not saying this is the case for every American in this position.)
2ND NOTE FINNS: Most Americans who are hardcore “consumers”, have many material depreciating assets. Hummers, snowmobiles, boats, expensive vacations and 50″ TVs for example, but they live in a rented house or apartment and have NO health insurance. Or else have a massive funky mortgage in a house way to big for them anyway and have no health insurace. It’s inexplicable, but they are stupid Americans after all.
Final point, 95% of the time supposed appendix ruptures end up being bad gas pain. HCMC used statistics and put you at the end of the line after the people who needed immediate help. Same thing happened to me in Finland with my son at the emergency room, except they KNOWINGLY took a statistical chance with my sons life to save $$$. I’m thankful they were correct with their gamble.
By the way Willie, how did a poor bum like you who was nearly bankrupted by a $4000 surgery afford to travel to Finland? Was it with money you saved by passing on heath insurance for a time? How can someone with $4000 dollars in there account not afford a simple inexpensive major medical plan?
Next time, be truthful.
Comment by maaksalaatikko — Wed, Nov 28th, 2007 @ 5:04 am
It’s not about theme parks rather simply the variety on offer for one to see elsewhere. Now when Spain and Australia were negatively compared to Finland I just pointed out a few areas where Finland lags. My own personal idea is not theme parks. I would prefer diving on The Great Barrier Reef but it depends on the individual. If you wants forests, they’re there. Snow? Yep, great skiing. Beach tourist? Go for it on wonderful beaches. Big cities or small towns, ancient culture, wilderness, desert landscapes, islands, remoteness. The list goes on and on.
To think it comes down to theme parks is silly and wrong. Australia (and Spain for that matter) has so much more to offer the tourist and it’s for these reasons tourism is an industry in these countries.
Comment by Punter — Wed, Nov 28th, 2007 @ 7:51 am
The steeply progressive taxation puts an artificial “cap” on how high salaries go. The government decides what is a “lot” of money and tax those people who make a “lot” of money heavily, thus keeping most people from making a “lot” of money. And many of those who do make a “lot” of money, structure in such a way that they pay only 28% tax - they take it as capital income.
I am quite for having a flat tax.
Comment by Sirkuspelle — Wed, Nov 28th, 2007 @ 8:31 am
Gee!
I love cheep rum and gettin it via the butt from sailors in my painted sauna.
Comment by winter “Yea, Proton Power, now in remission†— Wed, Nov 28th, 2007 @ 11:06 am
Punter, for someone likely to blast Finns for being brainwashed and having foolish national pride you sure like to brag about why your native country is so excellent in many regards. The pot calling the kettle, um, a nationalist?
Comment by Drakon — Wed, Nov 28th, 2007 @ 11:50 am
Punter, for someone likely to blast Finns for being brainwashed and having foolish national pride you sure like to brag about why your native country is so excellent in many regards.
Yeah, that’s one reason why it’s fun to put him on. The other reason is that he’s somewhat lacking in the headquarters. This time he got all heated up by hallucinating that there are no tourist attractions in Finland and that the Finns think that Finland is the Mecca of tourism.
hfb has exactly the same qualities but she’s too depressing to have fun with. Yes, dear, everything in Finland sucks because the Finns are dumb or alcoholics or dumb alcoholics who can do nothing right, we’ve heard that one thousand times already.
I’ve seen quite a few other examples. That makes me wonder, if it’s just me or are the “Anglo-Saxons” on average prone to this arrogant ignorance. And why, is it something in their heritage? Schools? Societies? Drinking water?
Comment by Pölhö-Pekka — Wed, Nov 28th, 2007 @ 12:53 pm
Listen, what is nationalistic about stating an obvious fact shared by the majority of people world wide that travel or wish to do so? If the comparison had’ve been about rally driving or ice hockey or some other field in which Finns excell then yes it would be stupid and nationalistic. However in the case of comparing a vast and vivid country like Australia (or Spain for that matter) to Finland, as a tourist destination is just plain old fashioned stupidity. To even suggest in the same breath that a tiny country like Finland with it’s lakes and forests can compete with a continent like Australia for the tourist dollar is not only the all time funniest thing ever written on FFT but also highly nationalistic itself and just PLAIN DUMB.
Comment by Punter — Wed, Nov 28th, 2007 @ 2:22 pm
Number of tourists visiting Finland was about 7 million last year.
Mainland:
http://www.mek.fi/w5/mekfi/index.nsf/6dbe7db571ccef1cc225678b004e73ed/158c8fb8b5aa69f7c225735b0032a96c/FILE/A154%20Rajahaastattelututkimus_osa%2019_Koko%20vuosi%202006.pdf
Ã…land:
http://www.kaapeli.fi/hypermail/suomis-list/0425.html
Now, Punter, I know that his turns in your head into something like; “Yes, yes, what did I tell you, Australia is a much bigger tourist destination with its 5,1 million visitors, claiming otherwise is plain dumb!”.
That gives a whole new meaning to the word dumb.
Anyway, because Finland is much smaller country than Australia I think it’s fair to speak about the number of tourists in relation to, say, the population. Then Australia should have about 28 million (four times 7 million), not those meager 5,1 million visitors a year to “win” Finland. Yeah, I know I dropped you there with that too darn complicated argument, but trust me: you’re wrong as usual.
Comment by Pölhö-Pekka — Wed, Nov 28th, 2007 @ 3:10 pm
Do you understand what a tourist is as against a visitor? I suggest you look it up. All you are doing is showing why (and I haven’t even looked at your link) figures are at times misleading. Look at my points and compare. No wonder you go by the Pölhö tag.
Comment by Punter — Wed, Nov 28th, 2007 @ 4:04 pm
#103 was not me. Phil can you see who it is?
Comment by winter, "Yea, Proton Power, now in remission" — Wed, Nov 28th, 2007 @ 4:25 pm
After doing some reading and a few simple calculations, it is interesting to have a look at what is “tourism” Finland style against what is “tourism” Austraian style. I stick with my original assumption and opinion that to compare the two as international tourist destinations is like comparing them in size.
Obviously by bordering Russia, Norway, Sweden and having ferries across to Estonia along with the airport connections between India and China giving them access to Europe, Finland is in a great position to have VISITORS. Note, these are not tourists coming to look at all the wonderful things Finland has to offer, just visitors on day trips across the border, ferry trips and the like.
Australia on the other hand shares a border with, well no-one. We have no direct links between neighbouring countries transit other foreigners. Our tourists come to Australia for a holiday, not a visit. They come to see the wonders on offer and to experience uniqueness. Most of all, they come to spend.
Unlike Finland where most of your “visitors” come from Russia (read St. Petersburg and surrounds) or Sweden (read Stockholm) or Estonia (read Talin) ours travel from far and wide. Now as your visitors are driving across a border (or ferrying) for a day it makes sense that they don’t have time to spend. Probably also has something to do with the fact that once they get here, there is nothing to spend their money on. The average spent per tourist in Finland, according to your statistics, is €283 PER VISIT. Compare this to the average in Australia of €2627 and I think the point is made. While you may attract visitors spending a day waiting for the ship to sail back to their homeland or attract a Russian to fly RyanAir or drive across to a ferry terminal, THESE ARE NOT TOURISTS AND THEY ARE NOT SPENDING. The reason for this is due to the fact there is so little to spend your money on here.
Get the point. You can play with figures and read them as taken (as you do so often in Finland) or you can look into figures and try to find how to interpret them (something you don’t do here) Anyway, the point is simple, Australia is by far the more attractive, better know and more interesting TOURIST destination by far. Again, to compare them in this way is like comparing them in size.
Comment by Punter — Wed, Nov 28th, 2007 @ 5:16 pm
“hfb has exactly the same qualities but she’s too depressing to have fun with. ”
What, you mean I get too close to the truth too often hoho-pekka?
You didn’t answer my question, either. Have you been a tourist around your own country anytime recently?
Comment by hfb — Wed, Nov 28th, 2007 @ 5:38 pm
I think Finland is heaven on earth in the summertime. There is no place I’d rather go for a vacation in July. Sauna’s on the lake with the sun never setting can’t be beat, except for maybe going for a stroll along the sea in Helsinki.
Although I don’t see having a run in with a wolf be top on my list of things to do. Maybe if you saw the wolf pack coming there was trees close by to climb it wouldn’t be so bad.
Comment by maaksalaatikko — Wed, Nov 28th, 2007 @ 6:08 pm
#112 Don’t worry, you won’t see them. Neither will you see the bear or poisonous snakes while extreme bushwalking
Comment by Punter — Wed, Nov 28th, 2007 @ 6:16 pm
Strange how this developed into a tourist destination pissing contest. Of course anyone can realise that Australia is a far more interesting place, for most people anyway. It is a large continent with varying climates and breathtaking wildlife, both land-based and aquatic. Until the likes of Punter destroy it, of course. Any day now they will start drilling SUV juice from the Great Barrier Reef. I suppose that being covered in oil protects from UV?
Most importantly they have shrimp on the barbie!
As for being a tourist in my own country, I can say that most national parks blow the socks off from a city boy like me. Finnish nature is impressive in a subtle way that the unwashed masses (such as lowbrow knuckle draggers from down under) are simply not qualified to appreciate. It’s a bit like Pinot Noir vs. Cabernet.
hfb:
“What, you mean I get too close to the truth too often hoho-pekka?”
Well…a stopped clock is right two times a day, as they say. The audience demands some variety.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Wed, Nov 28th, 2007 @ 6:22 pm
Frankie, that’s a surprise, you agreeing with me on something. I am delighted to let you know that drilling for oil on the reef is almost an impossibility. Many years ago now, early 80’s I believe´, the Queensland State Government did explore the reef and found signs of great deposits there. In order to protect it from drilling and to ensure it’s survival for future generations of Australians (and all of those TOURISTS) it was proclaimed a marine national park. This title basically covers it from oil exploration. Smile.
Comment by Punter — Wed, Nov 28th, 2007 @ 6:45 pm
Kristian:
“You can see it very plainly when you drive throughâ€â€e.g.Czech R.â€â€as I did a few-weeks-ago. They have newer houses and nicer cars than Finland. Same ‘free’ education and healthcare.”
Looks like Christmas came early to Kristian this year. Having visited both the Czech Republic and the eastern parts of Germany quite recently, I must say that I want some of what he’s smoking. Nicer cars? Sure if you consider Ã…Â koda Octavia the pinnacle of pimped-up wheels.
Another fun recent destination was Vilnius, Lithuania. The average salary in Lithuania is about 400€/month, apartments cost appx. the same as in Helsinki (which has a massive housing bubble with an average income of over 2500€/month). The Old Town is recently renovated and nice, the Soviet-era high rise suburbs look like Jakomäki after a nuclear explosion. There are old people surviving on small Soviet-standard pensions in old wooden houses which tend to mysteriously ignite at night…hooray for free enterprise! Well, at least someone’s making money.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Wed, Nov 28th, 2007 @ 6:56 pm
Punter:
“In order to protect it from drilling and to ensure it’s survival for future generations of Australians (and all of those TOURISTS) it was proclaimed a marine national park. This title basically covers it from oil exploration. Smile.”
Aw, these commie tree-hugging measures exist to be overturned. When the reef is punctured and drained, that’s final. Same with the Arctic National Wildlife Reserve in Alaska.
Oh well, I don’t have kids so what do I care. I hear they found a potentially habitable exoplanet only 20 light years away in April.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Wed, Nov 28th, 2007 @ 7:19 pm
I don’t know about any pissing contest. I just wanted to point out the possibility that there might be a tourist attraction in Finland, perhaps even more than one.
The even funnier part was to take on Punter’s challenge and “compare the numbers concerning foreign visitors” because that was supposed to be “definately (sic) one where not even the most hardcore nationalist could argue with success” [that more foreigners visit Finland than Australia].
Am I the only one that finds it hilarious when these Americans and the like are so sure of their own or their country’s superiority and how they then almost without an exception fall flat on their faces when the facts are brought to the table?
Finland seven million, Australia five, down and out!
And yeah, me too wonders what the hell all those people are doing here …
Comment by Pölhö-Pekka — Wed, Nov 28th, 2007 @ 7:59 pm
Dip shit, do you not understand English? Finland seven? Ah, no I thought you said Finland 5 and Ã…land 2? That means A: Finland 5 and Ã…land 2 or then B: Finland 5 and Ã…land 2? Now you wouldn’t be counting the same €283 a day spending visitor twice within the same country now to come to your 7 would you? You give us the reason to laugh.
Comment by Punter — Wed, Nov 28th, 2007 @ 8:05 pm
For heaven’s sake, why are you arguing something that was supposed to be unarguable.
Anyway, as I wrote earlier the mainland Finland alone knocks Australia down with two hundred thousands so Ã…land’s figure is irrelevant. But that said, I’m pretty sure that somebody visited Ã…land last year, and that makes Australia’s five million look even more pitiful compared to Finland’s excellent achievements.
And who are these mysterious “us” who along with you can’t follow an argument. Other patients?
Comment by Pölhö-Pekka — Wed, Nov 28th, 2007 @ 8:45 pm
read your own postings idiot.
Comment by Punter — Wed, Nov 28th, 2007 @ 10:03 pm
Hoho-pekka - Are you sure that number excludes in-country tourists/visitors? As I recall at some point, there was an article about half or slightly more of the overnight hotel stays were Finns…at least in Helsinki.
Perhaps everyone is coming to visit Moominworld which, I have to tell you, I was so thrilled to visit but was very disappointed to find it a) expensive b) tiny c) mostly fast food or merch pushing kiosks and d) had no moomin shaped ice lollies.
Of course, the spa and fine dining in town sort of made up for this but….
Comment by hfb — Thu, Nov 29th, 2007 @ 6:29 am
I’m a bit annoyed that hfb didn’t find the spa and restaurants no good, but she’s probably just lying to make us feel good. That’s the way this ice-lolly-loving darling is. (In reality she bitched in the good old “Americans-abroad way” about everything, unless she was laughing way too loud at the locals and getting drunk.)
Muumi-maailma, on the other hand, is a place all kids I know (plus Japan tourists) would love if it existed. But as we can read from Punter’s messages, it doesn’t. Sad, actually.
And more foreigners visit Australia than Finland. They do too! Honestly!
Comment by Pölhö-Pekka — Thu, Nov 29th, 2007 @ 3:29 pm
Muumi-maailma does exist, I know, I’ve been there. My evaluation of it (this was from about 8 years ago) was poor to fair. Overpriced and very little to do. In it’s own way though a good place to take the kids as it is so small that everything is seen and done in a couple of hours allowing you to get out in good time.
BTW dill, fewer people come here and spend a lot less money. €283 per visit in Finland against €2627 downunder. All those things to do and see here hey? Considering all your tourists and the high prices here, I would have thought it logical that the figures would have been somewhat different. Opposite even? €13.4 billion V €1.5. Guess which is which Mr. travel and tourism???
Comment by Punter — Thu, Nov 29th, 2007 @ 4:35 pm
Punter
I’ve been waiting for you to post how much tourists spent. I knew you’d get them with that one. You should have done it first.
Comment by maaksalaatikko — Thu, Nov 29th, 2007 @ 5:15 pm
hoho-pekka - Well, I can disappoint you by saying that I probably won’t go back unless the kid wants to go and is functional in Finnish as Moominworld was not at all geared towards the foreign tourist children…well, unless you count Swedes as foreign tourists.
For the 18 euro per head ( I don’t think kids got a cheaper entrance fee, but I could be wrong on that) the foreign tourist mostly just got to wander around the grounds and eat greasy theme park food and buy a few of the moomin merch that the shop in the Kamp shopping center had a better selection of. Children don’t seem to notice these flaws but, then, they’re children. 
Outside of Helsinki and maybe a few of the other cities the country just isn’t geared for anyone who doesn’t speak Finnish or maybe Swedish. In Ivalo the restaurant at the hotel looked at me like I had arrived from the moon when I tried to order my dinner in a clearly ’she ain’t from around these parts’ Finnish. The guy at the grilli didn’t seem nearly as put out and the reindeer was the best I had in Finland.
I have always lamented the lack of roadside attractions in Finland in the ‘build it and they will come’ sort of American way, but most of Finland is totally geared for the Finnish tourist or a foreign tourist travelling with a Finn or a tour group.
Comment by hfb — Thu, Nov 29th, 2007 @ 5:24 pm
Why did this turn into some Finland vs Australia contest? The whole debate started when # 47 said “Finns drive around in old bangers. Why there’s nothing to do In Finland” and I replied to that.
Explain to me what there is to do in Spain or Australia, that can’t be done here in some form. If you claim there is nothing to do in Finland then you should find some examples easily.
Punter, you said the bears and snakes aren’t a real danger? The Finnish nature is just as dangerous as the Australian. The dangers just happen to be different. Australia has deadly spiders, snakes and crocodiles, we have bears, wolves, moose (kills most people every year) and easy looking rivers that can suck you in the bottom and drown you. The ice might give way, when you cross a lake or river during the winter. Falling into icy water has to be the most dangerous thing in winter, the next being freezing to death because you get lost or pass out somewhere due to binge drinking. Both are things that have and will happen to tourists. Nevertheless hiking in winter is considerably safer by my standards, since there are no bears and snakes.
There hasn’t been a death from a snakebite (European adder) since 1998 but I have to say it’s the ugliest snake I have ever seen.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/05/Viperaberus1.jpg/800px-Viperaberus1.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ae/ViperaBerusFang.JPG/800px-ViperaBerusFang.JPG
A couple years ago a jogger ran right between a bear and her cubs. Died instantly. That happened near a city. To be honest, I would feel much safer hiking in the Australian outback than here. A 500kg bear is far more dangerous than anything there is in Australia. On land anyway.
Comment by me — Thu, Nov 29th, 2007 @ 6:50 pm
I don’t think this is an Australia v Finland thing. I just wish to correct a few inaccuracies in peoples stories and inform. It is you and your friend that are throwing out all of these stupid unenformed comments about a land neither of you have much knowledge of. Now that is the difference here as I have lived in Finland for 14.5 years and know both countries and societies pretty well. As I said, want to talk hockey or rally, I’ll shut up and learn from you guys, it’s your thing. Talk about tourism or landscapes or wilderness and I will speak up.
Your last posting for example was going along quite well to start with but then you drifted. I don’t doubt your story of a death from a kyy but I don’t remember reading it. Whoever it killed must have been a newborn or an extremely weak person as the snake is hardly classifiable as dangerous let alone deadly.
As for your comment on the dangers of bushwalking in the two countries, all I can say is good luck to you then. Thank God the tourists that come to our country to view what it has to offer are a little wiser and educated than you.
Comment by Punter — Thu, Nov 29th, 2007 @ 7:23 pm
“€283 per visit in Finland against €2627 downunder. All those things to do and see here hey? Considering all your tourists and the high prices here, I would have thought it logical that the figures would have been somewhat different”
Most of the “things-to-do” in Finland dont cost much. In summer it’s swimming, sauna, midnight sun, the peacefulness of the sun setting on a calm lake after sauna, with a six-pack of beer. Simple things yet free, part the six-pack. The nightlife in the city is rather relaxed and peaceful, you can feel perfectly safe in most cities. In winter when everything is white and the night sky couldn’t be more breathtaking, just a simple campfire in the middle of nowhere, with friends and tasty sausage. Or maybe taking a sauna and dip into a frozen lake. For a music lover Finland is easily world class, I bet you didn’t even know. I believe holidays are supposed to be free of all the hurry and planning, to give you the feeling of relaxation. Claiming there is nothing to do here only suggests you don’t either know or understand this country one bit.
Comment by me — Thu, Nov 29th, 2007 @ 7:28 pm
“Now that is the difference here as I have lived in Finland for 14.5 years and know both countries and societies pretty well.”
You have lived here over 14 years and still say there is nothing to do here. That is kinda hard to believe. The other one has to be a lie.
“I don’t doubt your story of a death from a kyy but I don’t remember reading it.”
Don’t worry you can read it now.
“â€ÂViimeisin tiedossa oleva kuolemantapaus on vuodelta 1998â€Â, sanoo osastonylilääkäri Kalle Hoppu Myrkytystietokeskuksesta.”
http://www.suomenluonto.fi/artikkeli.php3?a=118
Whatever you thought you knew about the snake, don’t underestimate it. An allergic reaction and a shock are always possible even for a healthy grown up. I have read that after you have been bitten once, your body reacts so that the next bite comes even more dangerous even years after. Even the most poisonous snake in Australia gives you 7 hours, going into a shock in a cool weather in the middle of nowhere can kill a person the same. Even so, the bite hurts like hell and makes your leg so fat it makes walking with a backpack extremely difficult.
“As for your comment on the dangers of bushwalking in the two countries, all I can say is good luck to you then. Thank God the tourists that come to our country to view what it has to offer are a little wiser and educated than you.”
I’m not putting down the dangers in Australia. But if we talk about hiking, this is the situation you can face in Finland
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZSn1Jl7eKo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_AZTqXimig
There are plenty of dangers in Finland, you don’t seem to respect the Finnish nature one bit, yet you say I’m the stupid and uneducated one. I would feel more safe in Australia than here in the summer. Australia has dangers, but listen to locals and you’d be just fine. The water is a whole different thing. It’s the water you need to be wary of while in Australia.
It may come to you as a suprise, but what is the choice of Bear Grylls? Is it Australia? Let’s hear it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wk2533F62HU
Comment by me — Thu, Nov 29th, 2007 @ 8:30 pm
It is you and your friend that are throwing out all of these stupid unenformed comments about a land neither of you have much knowledge of.
Who was this friend by the way? I haven’t noticed anybody making “unenformed comments” about your dear vaterland. I just showed that you were wrong. More foreign visitors in Asutralia, my ass.
But let’s make a comment now when my reputation has already been flushed down the drain by this fellow we all, and maaksalaatikko in particular, greatly respect for his impartial views on everything Australian (and Finnish). Here’s a typical Australian view:
http://www.dkimages.com/discover/previews/940/50158775.JPG
and here’s a Finnish version:
http://www.metsavetoomus.fi/media/kansallismaisema.jpg
Well, oukkidoukki, you were right, the Australian one is so much more beautiful
Comment by Pölhö-Pekka — Thu, Nov 29th, 2007 @ 8:36 pm
To be frank or Pekka I must say that Australia is an extremely dangerous place. I listened to a local radio broadcast while there in which they told about some sort of small jellyfish which kills almost instantly. Nobody knows how many people get killed by this animal because victims are considered to have drowned. Australia has also more poisonous snakes and spiders than the rest of the world together, if I remember correctly. I wouldn’t take my kids there. I doubt that that’s one reason why even fewer foreigners visit Australia than Finland.
Comment by Pölhö-Pekka — Thu, Nov 29th, 2007 @ 8:58 pm
http://www.matka-atlas.fi/australia/australia.jpg
http://www.nationalgeographic.com/adventure/photos/Adventure%20Travel_Australia.jpg
http://www.aboutaustralia.com/a2it_package/images/travel/Heron_Island_Beach.jpg
http://www.dunk-island.com/images/media/dki08.jpg
I mean what’s more to say? Just plain ugly. Now go get bitten by a taipan, both of you.
Comment by Punter — Thu, Nov 29th, 2007 @ 9:33 pm
Oh, and me. Tomorrow when you’re at school, ask your teacher to check her Australian wildlife facts. If that’s all they’re teaching you at school it is little wonder it’s “free.”
Goodnight
Comment by Punter — Thu, Nov 29th, 2007 @ 9:36 pm
“nobody knows how many people get killed by this animal because victims are considered to have drowned. Australia has also more poisonous snakes and spiders than the rest of the world together, if I remember correctly. I wouldn’t take my kids there. I doubt that that’s one reason why even fewer foreigners visit Australia than Finland.”
It’s irukandji box-jelly fish. There was a documentary about it in TV a while ago. The fact is, there is little to be afraid of when hiking in Australia. The real dangers are in the water. Sharks, jellyfish and the salt-water crocodile. These can be found near the coast so hiking in the outback is rather safe. I don’t understand why people are so afraid of snakes and spiders. They do not attack people and even if they would, there’s little chance they would catch you or that they would even start chasing you. They are the least harmful creatures you can meet, poisonous or not. There are far more dangerous places on earth than the Australian outback. You can safely take your kids there, just listen the locals and you’d be fine. There are places in Africa, South America and Asia which are far more dangerous. Lions, tigers, anacondas, insects not only bite but plant eggs in you in the process, deadly diseases that are not yet discovered by modern science. The snake that kills most people on the world is suprisingly not found in Australia but Asia. Lots of Finns go there with their kids every winter. Scandinavia can be more dangerous place to be hiking than Australia. By all means, take your kids with you and go hiking in the Australian outback. Similar sceneries like in Africa, but you don’t have to be afraid of pissed off tribes carrying AK-47, lions, angry elephants, rhinos or anything like that.
Comment by me — Thu, Nov 29th, 2007 @ 9:47 pm
“Oh, and me. Tomorrow when you’re at school, ask your teacher to check her Australian wildlife facts. If that’s all they’re teaching you at school it is little wonder it’s “free.—
Australia. The centre of the universe. (for some people)
Comment by me — Thu, Nov 29th, 2007 @ 9:50 pm
“I mean what’s more to say? Just plain ugly. Now go get bitten by a taipan, both of you.”
Not that Australia wouldn’t be a beautiful place, but those sceneries are well know among Finns who go to Thailand or India every damn year. Do you have any idea how much cheaper India and Thailand are compared to Australia? You have to have more than those photos to convince the average Finn who doesn’t give a crap about the beautiful animals, but wants the cheap hookers, cheap food, cheap drinks and then pass out in a hammock at the beach.
Comment by me — Thu, Nov 29th, 2007 @ 9:58 pm
“But let’s make a comment now when my reputation has already been flushed down the drain by this fellow we all, and maaksalaatikko in particular, greatly respect for his impartial views on everything Australian (and Finnish).”
Why drag me in to this? Give me Finland in July and Australia in January. I’d prefer the Finland trip myself, but that’s because I’ve got an emotional bond with the country in addition to thinking it’s a fantastic place to be in the summer. I think Austrailia as country is a much more of a “tourist” destination, but I’d still prefer Finland in July.
One thing Punter has over Me and Pole-n-hole Pekka is that he has lived in both countries. I’m guessing Pole-n-hole and Me have not LIVED in any other countries because their remarks are stereotypically hardcore Finnish. Punter may not be impartial, but his brain isn’t frozen in an ice addled darkness.
Comment by maaksalaatikko — Thu, Nov 29th, 2007 @ 10:06 pm
Punter’s patriotism previously ranked as “foolish superiority complex” just crossed the border and became ridiculous. Congratulations! That gives you the right to play a ventriloquist’s dummy. What’s more, Punter doesn’t even know what a typical Australian scenery looks like. Time to go home, mate, or get even stronger medication. We won’t miss you, I promise, except for leverlÃ¥dan.
Comment by Pölhö-Pekka — Thu, Nov 29th, 2007 @ 10:09 pm
“I’m guessing Pole-n-hole and Me have not LIVED in any other countries because their remarks are stereotypically hardcore Finnish. Punter may not be impartial, but his brain isn’t frozen in an ice addled darkness.”
Punter is not the only person who has lived in both countries. I have know people from Australia, South-Africa and all around, also Finns who have lived in Australia. So you can go fuck yourself with your “stereotypical” Finns. I have little or no respect at all for people who think they are the centre of the universe and that their word is the gospel because they have lived in TWO(!) countries. I have met people who have lived in 4 or 5 countries and still don’t mind other people being stereotypical. For some people it seems like a fucking disaster if a person doesn’t know it all about their precious country. Who even wants to go to Australia if the people there are nothing more but assholes. If I had paid 2000 euros for the flight fares plus atleast 1000 euros to actually do something in Australia, I would rather kill myself with a dull razorblade than having to deal with an asshole like that. No wonder the tourism in Australia isn’t as good as it could be. You’d have to be blind and deaf to make it through a week there. How’s that for a stereotype, häh?
Comment by me — Thu, Nov 29th, 2007 @ 10:21 pm
Why drag you into this? Because you asked for it in your “finally you got those stupid Finns comment”.
I’ll bet you’re an American. Why? Well, it’s the racism that always gives you away guys. “Brain frozen in an ice addled darkness”, well, I’d say that it’s pretty standard American contempt, but surely you can do better. But tell you what, I’ll add it to my collection of racist American quotes on Finns anyway. One of these days I’ll publish them all and then you don’t have to whine anymore: “why don’t they like us?” Deal?
Good night, honey.
Comment by Pölhö-Pekka — Thu, Nov 29th, 2007 @ 10:23 pm
Who even wants to go to Australia if the people there are nothing more but assholes.
They’re not, I know several, and having lived in two countries doesn’t usually make one an idiot, so Punter is an exception on two counts.
Comment by Pölhö-Pekka — Thu, Nov 29th, 2007 @ 10:34 pm
me - “Most of the “things-to-do†in Finland dont cost much. In summer it’s swimming, sauna, midnight sun, the peacefulness of the sun setting on a calm lake after sauna, with a six-pack of beer.”
Honey, just breathing in the air in Finland ain’t free. I think the cheapest accomodation you can get in the Helsinki area is a hostel and even those are something like 40 euro per night. I think the hotel we stayed at in bumfuck nowhere was even over 100 euro per night. If that number is low it’s because there are a lot of people who don’t spend the night, e.g. cruise ships.
hoho-pekka - C’mon sugar, get with the program..or was that pogrom?
You didn’t cite the usage of language as the greatest indicator. I’d say she’s likely female, definitely American and well educated judging by her past comments. You’re surely Finnish by the same measure, but you’d probably say I’m stereotyping you or being racist. 
maksalaatiko - ‘pole-n-hole’ *snerk* I came so, so close to using homo-pekka, but it lacked finesse.
Comment by hfb — Thu, Nov 29th, 2007 @