Most retarded and offensive post ever…

That’s a bit strange Kristian. Even I fail to see a link between dads spending time with their infant children and actions such as those last week. I think the link between parenting and the role of the State is there, just not where you’re looking.

Parents need the power to be parents and less of the Nanny State support or restrictions. As the State takes a bigger role in our lives it seems families weaken and drift. The roles become less clear and things such as spending time, making family based decisions and even handing out discipline all become a role of the State rather than ones of the family.

This I think seems to get many families off in the wrong direction in modern welfare states and is certainly the case in Finland. As the family unit breaks down so too does the society traditionally built around it. Add the liberal parenting rules of The Nordic States (I call it a cop out of responsibility) and you have the recipe for mayhem, the start of which we are witnessing today.

Just a question: What does the category 12 mean in the header? Based on the quality of reasoning in the parent post, I can only conclude it means the opinion was written by someone with mental faculties of a 12-year old.

Are you joking? Please say that you’re joking.

I see a link. If Auvinen’s father had been spending time with his son, he would have seen that something in wrong. Often parents are too wrapped up in themselves, their drinking, careers, or whatever to notice their children.

Unfortunately, Matti Vanhanen is not a shining example of a family role model, but it must be hard to take care of a family and be in politics in Finland.

Too often in Finland, the tendency is to try to figure out some new government program that will solve everyone’s problems. The government cannot parent children, even if some Finnish parents would like to think that “life will just teach them”.

“Nanny 911″ and other shows show how things can go totally wrong with parenting. Children from those families end up really messed up if they don’t sort things out. I recommend watching one or two episodes of that to every parent.

I was once talking to a Finnish mother while her 11 year old son repeatedly punched her in her breast. It was a bit distracting. I hope he doesn’t end up shooting up a school someday.

WOW! this is so stupid. “natural human behavior” I don’t even know where to begin. First and last time to these parts of the internet.

You really have no ideia on how to raise children do you (I hope you haven’t experience either). But you got one thing right: teens need their father around.

I don’t think it’s bad that the fathers start to connect to their offspring allready at their infancy.

You know, it’s not easy to climb onboard just for the teenage years..

Not to mention the family dynamics: I think every mother can appriceate a father taking part in the every day struggle what means to take care a child, the household and personal life.

I think the legislation promotes the “family way of life” rather than unnatural human behaviour.

Unified and connected family is the traditional family setting.

A parent (mother and/or father) should be there for a child from day one. It’s a child, not a tech support issue.

Are there any “libertarians” who actually have children? Judging from what they post on this blog, the whole ideology comes off as being just selfish. Being a parent forces you to think and care about someone other than yourself. Must be hard for some to imagine…

Punter: “As the State takes a bigger role in our lives it seems families weaken and drift. The roles become less clear…”

I think you understood the point exactly as I meant it: When government tries to implement ‘cultural direction’ in the lives of people, then natural parental roles do indeed get murky and even twisted (as I alluded above, regarding fathers leaving work to care for newborns). I believe we’ve had an earful of very one-sided cultural rhetoric for most of this decade.

Sirkuspelle: “Too often in Finland, the tendency is to try to figure out some new government program that will solve everyone’s problems…”

Interestingly, I believe that works under a very authoritarian regime, like in Finland prior to 1990. Kids were raised by the state from daycare onward. Nobody questioned it…well, almost nobody. In many other parts of Europe, that is seen as sort of a ‘cold’ way to raise children. I think many Americans also agree.

But as the standard of living rises (at least relative to before) and society becomes more open and free (hopefully), that paradigm should probably be seen as counterproductive. Parents need to follow their natural instincts, instead of confusing misdirections by some in government.

“Parents need to follow their natural instincts, instead of confusing misdirections by some in government.”

And I suppose that the natural order of things is optimally represented by gender roles imposed by a Victorian society. No social engineering there, I’m sure.

I strongly suspect that the “natural way” is parents dumping their children when they are capable of hunting themselves, i.e. around their early teens. Which is when they have their first kids, btw.

Spoken like the true parent you are frankie

Franklin – Or letting them die when they get sick. Survival of the fittest y’all. Hey, at least he didn’t say something about women being barefoot in the kitchen and being to blame for all the ills of society.

Do children even have a childhood anymore?

Punter:
“Spoken like the true parent you are frankie”

Nope, no kids. In any case, I do not support the “natural way”. Civilisation, despite being “unnatural”, has its benefits.

Didn’t think so.

“Or letting them die when they get sick. Survival of the fittest y’all.”

By chance, that’s not a veiled quip about the Finnish public healthcare system, is it?

I have two children. Being a parent is fun.

About the Nanny 911 show, sirkuspelle (or anyone)… How do they find these horrendous parents? Is it that common for kids to be so screwed up by clueless parents?

It is really sad to watch that show. And I don’t like to use the word “sad” on the internet, it is entirely overused.

There was actually an article quite recently in The UK press about a case where one of these “saved” kids set fire to the family home soon after being “healed.” The parents claim the producers encourage the kids to act up during the show to make for better TV. Wouldn’t surprise me a bit. No-one (kids or parents) can really be that clueless can they? I mean we all need advice with parenting from time to time and sure kids can throw a tantrum but like that? Not on my watch and I’m sure not on anyone else’s either

Freerider Franklin said, And I suppose that the natural order of things is optimally represented by gender roles

Maybe what you don’t realize yet, is that most families live according to relatively standard “gender roles.” It works well for most people, and in my opinion, contributes to a more stable environment for children and society in general.

Noise about paternity leave (=for fathers of babies), which I agree is very unnatural in concept, does nothing except to distract from the more important things that should be considered. We hear about it because of a small number of people with loud voices.

I’m totally in agreement with this article, that there’s been too much interference by fringe elements in Finnish politics concerning “lifestyle issues”. Government shouldn’t be supporting that type of line, and should just keep its messages about how to live to a minimum.

iParent:
“Maybe what you don’t realize yet, is that most families live according to relatively standard “gender roles.””

Who would you accept as the standardisation organisation? Apparently not the state. How about the state church?

“Government shouldn’t be supporting that type of line, and should just keep its messages about how to live to a minimum.”

This is certainly something we can agree on.

Well, the system without any paternal leave is also unnatural. If we return to natural hunter-gatherer way of doing things, pops would hang around the home cave and occasionally go kill a bear, a moose or catch a fish when feeling hungry. They would certainly not wear a tie and spend insane hours in the office because mulquist boss wants the project report next morning.

Government is forcing nobody to take paternal leave nor telling how to spend it. I think it’s perfect way to tell the boss to screw it for a while, untie the tie and hang in and around home within one day walking distance at maximum instead of being sent to the antipode for some bullshit meeting and spending days at airports.

OK, I hate some bloody feminist or a feminist symphatizing mekko-einari to stuff some damned “father-role” down my throat like anyone else. I want to define it myself. I’m not going to put on an apron or being the no.2 mom to the baby, but if your sleep-deprived, hormone intoxicated wife wants a couple of hours sleep, surely you want to give her those hours, instead of being in the office drawing some bloody gadget that’s going to end-up in the garbage dump in two years anyway.

Executive summary: No one can tell you, how to spend your paternity leave. You are free to be the man in the house, not a slave in the office.

I agree fathers need be around most during teenager times. When babies it makes no sense to be 2nd mommy like Antti m write It is my opinion but hope nobody is insulted

Oh my… I’d have have expected this reaction in bible-belt US, but not in Finland. Are you seriously saying that this dude went on a rampage because he didn’t come from a proper nuclear family? Because of the insidious workings of SETA members in the government? Maybe the cultists are right after all, the shooting was divine punishment for Finland embracing homosexuality. For real.

“Most retarded and offensive post ever…”

Second that.

I can not understand how anyone – especially anyone who is a parent or has ever had parents – would say that suggesting that childbearing is the job of parents is somehow retarded or offensive.

@27: State versus family in raising children was not the gist of his post, now was it? More like the ‘God-ordained family’ versus everything he sees as, but doesn’t have the balls to call straight out, deviant. By implication including single mothers and homosexuals.

Kristian: “But I’m confident that I speak for many people in Finland, who believe that any policies which deviate from natural human behavior should be cast aside.”

Cities, surely, should be abandoned post haste. The natural human behavior is to roam freely in the wild. Computers ditto, in lieu of everything “engineered” by this devilish, newfangled invention called “an organized society”, “technological” even.

Gods, have not our Sage Elders warned us against these abominations?

Are you all men?

I rather agree with Antti RN in nr 24.

Of course it is right that we fathers have the right to paternity leave. Why should it be assumed it is the woman’s role to do everything, and indeed why should it be assumed we wouldn’t value and want to spend time with our new child!

I hardly think that paternal leave is eccentric. As for it being “non-traditional”, well, we used to punish murder with murder and lock the mentally ill away in cells. I don’t think our current more enlightened approach to such matters would be considered eccentric by anyone other than those who have not accepted that society progresses and this is the 21st century.

I think some of you are forgetting the more eccentric talking points of the last administration—like forcing fathers and mothers to divide parental leave, but take it at separate times. This is, of course, attempting to shove a contrived idea of equality down society’s throat. Should it really be government’s job to promote such ideology-based policies?

And what about that Swede, Steffen Wallin, going around trying to influence fathers to take paternity leave? If it were “natural human behavior” then why does he need to influence anyone to do anything? Wouldn’t people just do it on their own?

Again, my point here is that government shouldn’t be influencing social patterns—beyond perhaps telling parents to be mindful of their children so they don’t commit crimes…along with informing society about host of safety-related issues, like the dangers of children not wearing seatbelts, or consequences of playing with fire, etc.

And what about that Swede, Steffen Wallin
Swede???

I think it’s questionable whenever someone uses the term natural to describe something, especially something ideal. Natural is a subjective term, it depends on who you ask and from which vantage point you’re coming from. I don’t like it when people suggest that simply having a family that is a little bit different from the norm produces killers. What the original post even said was that the father needs to be around during the teenage years. What you really mean is that it’s important for the teenager to have people who care about him/her and who show an interest in the well-being of that teenager. It doesn’t matter if it’s the father or the mother or the uncle or the homeroom teacher. Family is simply the people who care about each other the most. That can exist in many forms. Simply saying that it dangerous to go away from the conservative nuclear-family model causes problems is not sufficient. The problems occur from not having a significant familial connection to other people.

On an unrelated note, I think paternal leave is a good idea for the cohesion of the family, I don’t think it’s just for the baby.

@34: Well put.

If it were “natural human behavior” then why does he need to influence anyone to do anything? Wouldn’t people just do it on their own?

So let’s everybody just never discuss anything, ever. What’s the point if people automatically know what they should do.

government shouldn’t be influencing social patterns—beyond perhaps telling parents to be mindful of their children so they don’t commit crimes…along with informing society about host of safety-related issues

What, people DON’T automatically know what’s good for them?! You just blew my mind…

Anyway, I have my doubts about government trying to influence family life too much but this paternal leave policy isn’t about turning fathers into second mothers (although I for one would love to have two loving mothers, who wouldn’t?) but giving mothers some time to relax a little, get back into the outside world, work etc. Besides, being there when their children are toddlers might just make fathers be there more when they are teenagers too. Who knows?

One more thing, Kristian. Can I hear it from you straight up that you think paternal leave and other kind of policies that you call ‘social engineering’ had something to do with the Jokela shooting? Simple yes or no would do.

Pave—I have no idea of exactly what caused the Jokela shooting. As far as I’m concerned, it should serve as a reminder, that teenagers need guidance. That’s how I wrote it. However, I can’t say it’s an example of what happens if they don’t get it, because I don’t know anything about the family circumstances.

But in general, I do see a higher propensity for erratic behavior, when the masses are subjected to confused messages from government. I do believe that’s what the last administration was all about; I’d hate to see a repeat during this administration.

I’ll reiterate, I’m confident that people can find their own way without government’s social guidance.

Kristian:
“I’ll reiterate, I’m confident that people can find their own way without government’s social guidance.”

Then surely maternal leave also nneds to be eliminated. Oh I forgot, you think that womenfolk shouldn’t be working in the first place. I’m sure that was most natural in paleolithic times, men toiled to bring in the bread and women cleaned the cave and stared at their own reflection from the surface of a lake for the rest of the time, occasionally popping out another rugrat. Occasionally they might have hosted Tupperware parties, or the stone age equivalent…

Excellent post. This is the triumph of natural selection over social egalitarianism.

http://www.corrupt.org/news/finland_shaken_by_new_school_massacre_in_kauhajoki