We know two things about the shooter, at least:

He has/had terrible taste in music.

He was not destined to be the greatest filmmaker, in any case.

He posted this video, Jokela High School Massacre – 11/7/2007 http://youtube.com/watch?v=FErcNl3Tjh0 yesterday.

This is his YouTube profile… Interesting…

Sturmgeist89 aka NaturalSelector89 (3/15/2007 – 10/19/2007).

YouTube suspended my previous account but I am back now My new account name is German and means “Stormspirit” in English.

http://rapidshare.com/files/68 015773/Pekka-Eric_Auvinen___Jo kela_High_School_Massacre.zip
Name: Pekka-Eric Auvinen
Age: 18
Male from Finland.

I am a cynical existentialist, antihuman humanist, antisocial socialdarwinist, realistic idealist and godlike atheist.

SI VIS PACEM, PARA BELLUM! JUSTITIA SUUM CUIQUE DISTRIBUIT! SIC SEMPER TYRANNIS!

I am prepared to fight and die for my cause. I, as a natural selector, will eliminate all who I see unfit, disgraces of human race and failures of natural selection.

You might ask yourselves, why did I do this and what do I want. Well, most of you are too arrogant and closed-minded to understand… You will proprably say me that I am”insane”, “crazy”, “psychopath”, “criminal” or crap like that. No, the truth is that I am just an animl, a human, an individual, a dissident.

I have had enough. I don’t want to be part of this fucked up society. Like some other wise people have said in the past, human race is not worth fighting for or saving… only worth killing. But… When my enemies will run and hide in fear when mentioning my name… When the gangsters of the corrupted governments have been shot in the streets… When the rule of idioracy and the democratic system has been replaced with justice… When intelligent people are finally free and rule the society instead of the idiocratic rule of majority… In that great day of deliverance, you will know what I want.

Long live the revolution… revolution against the system, which enslaves not only the majority of weak-minded masses but also the small minority of strong-minded and intelligent individuals! If we want to live in a different world, we must act. We must rise against the enslaving, corrupted and totalitarian regimes and overthrow the tyrants, gangsters and the rule of idiocracy. I can’t alone change much but hopefully my actions will inspire all the intelligent people of the world and start some sort of revolution against the current systems. The system discriminating naturality and justice, is my enemy. The people living in the world of delusion and supporting this system are my enemies.

I am ready to die for a cause I know is right, just and true… even if I would lose or the battle would be only remembered as evil… I will rather fight and die than live a long and unhappy life.

And remember that this is my war, my ideas and my plans. Don’t blame anyone else for my actions than myself. Don’t blame my parents or my friends. I told nobody about my plans and I always kept them inside my mind only. Don’t blame the movies I see, the music I hear, the games I play or the books I read. No, they had nothing to do with this. This is my war: one man war against humanity, governments and weak-minded masses of the world! No mercy for the scum of the earth! HUMANITY IS OVERRATED! It’s time to put NATURAL SELECTION & SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST back on tracks!

Justice renders to everyone his due.
Country: Finland
Occupation: Unemployed Philosopher, Outcast
Companies: Human Race (evolved one step above though)
Interests and Hobbies: Existentialism, Freedom, Truth, Misantrophy, Social / Personality Psychology, Evolution Science, Political Incorrectness, Women, BDSM, Guns (I love you Catherine), Shooting, Computer Games, Sarcasm, Irony, Mass / Serial Killers, Macabre Art, Black Comedy, Absurdism
Movies and Shows: The Matrix, A View To A Kill, Falling Down, Natural Born Killers, Reservoir Dogs, Last Man Standing, Full Metal Jacket, Dr. Butcher MD (aka Zombie Holocaust), Saw 1-3, Lord Of War, The Deer Hunter, True Romance, The Untouchables, 28 Days Later, 28 Weeks Later, Idiocracy, They Live, Apocalypse Now, End Of Days, The Shining, The Dead Zone, Dr. Strangelove, House MD (TV), Monty Python, TV Documentaries Relating To History
Music: KMFDM, Rammstein, Eisbrecher, Nine Inch Nails, Grendel, Impaled Nazarene, Macabre, Deathstars, The Prodigy, Combichrist, Godsmack, Slayer, Children Of Bodom, Alice Cooper, Sturmgeist, Suicide Commando, Hatebreed, Suffocation, Terrorizer
Books: Fahrenheit 451 (Bradbury), 1984 (Orwell), Brave New World (Huxley), The Republic (Plato), all works of Nietzsche

It was this guy:

http://koti.mbnet.fi/janizz/Kuvat/4563486.png

Grade A nutjob.

Here is the video he left on YouTube http://youtube.com/watch?v=FErcNl3Tjh0
Radio Vega is reporting that one of the persons injured is the school’s head teacher.

So, my dear libertarians, let the people have guns then? Of course, you would say that if every one had guns, then they would shoot the shooter, the argument often heard after Virginia Tech. Maybe we can all keep each other under guard at all times, yeah that should work well.

I give you a quote by Eddie Izzard:
“And the National Rifle Association says that, “Guns don’t kill people, people do,” but I think the gun helps, you know? I think it helps. I just think just standing there going, “Bang!” That’s not going to kill too many people, is it? You’d have to be really dodgy on the heart to have that…”

and one by John Waters, unrelated, yes, but interesting:
“No, every day I’m inspired by things. I live in Baltimore, that always inspires me. Things happen to me in my daily life that are funny every day. I was in a bar in Baltimore and I asked a guy what he did for a living. He said, “Can I be frank? I trade deer meat for crack.”"

From the mbnet profile. It starts: “Full of hate and I love it.”

His choice of target does not fit with the theme of his manifesto quotes above….

Let’s just hope he doesn’t pop himself like in the end of every school shooting. It’d be great if was caught. What poor excuses to kill kids.

So, my dear libertarians, let the people have guns then? Of course, you would say that if every one had guns, then they would shoot the shooter, the argument often heard after Virginia Tech. Maybe we can all keep each other under guard at all times, yeah that should work well.

This is a great story for anti-gun advocates in the states: Even if you have strict gun laws, the shootings still occur.

Herkku,

What’s your point? Does Finland adhere to this particular libertarian view? No. I’m sure if you’d applied yourself you might have been able to squeeze one remark against Ron Paul in there too.

So, are the police going to be shooting rubber or real bullets back at him?

It would be easier if he kills himself. Noone else will be put in danger and there won’t have to be a discussion in ten years over whether or not to let him go free from jail.

It would be easier if he kills himself. Noone else will be put in danger and there won’t have to be a discussion in ten years over whether or not to let him go free from jail.

If he were smart he won’t kill himself, the murder sentence in Finland is around 10 years, he’ll be my age when he’s out. Not bad!

In ten years? Keep dreaming Fred. This guy will be out in five.

http://rs239.rapidshare.com/files/68015773/Pekka-Eric_Auvinen___Jokela_High_School_Massacre.zip

…did anyone successfully download this file? If so, could you send it to me so I can post it on my server?

He’s reportedly been caught, so not dead I think. But who knows with news reports at this stage.

It sounds like it is the head teacher, or at least a teacher, who has died.
Ledande läkare Eero Hirvensalo vid Tölö sjukhus bekräftar att en kvinna i medelÃ¥ldern har dödats i skottdramat.
(doctor confirmed a middle aged woman has died)

what a f****** nazi c**t

http://youtube.com/watch?v=nv-o8HKLZsI

He was/is obsessed with Full Metal Jacket by Stanley Kubrick (he seems especially fond of the first half of the movie where the marine recruit loses his shit after being hounded by the sergeant for so long.

What does he do? Goes nuts, shoots the sergeant then himself.

These adolescent psychopaths are becoming old hat, Zzzzzzz…….

There is no sound, but some pictures from the scene for those of you who don’t understand Finnish or Swedish.

http://ra.yle.fi/ramgen/internytt/videoclips/TUSBY.rm
http://ra.yle.fi/ramgen/internytt/videoclips/TUSBY2.rm

Sturmgeist just wants to be an Amerikkkan….Watched to much CSI and Miami vice reruns…Happiness is a warm gun and a Budweiser yeaahhh!

What a fucking tool. The only “ok” thing to come out of this is that none of his fellow inmates are gonna like him.

Now Yleisradio says that several have been killed, according to Meilahti hospital.

They drove them the way to Meilahti? No wonder they’re dead.

“They drove them the way to Meilahti? No wonder they’re dead.”

Well hello, you can’t operate without a surgeon and the facilities.

What an interesting turn of events after years of hyporitical comments on US school shootings from smug finns! I always thought it unfair to compare tiny Finland against giant US in this matter. I mean, wouldn’t it make more sense to compare Finland to any of the 50 states rather than all of them? If you take population into account, the US would have to have a whopping sixty school shootings this year to beat Finland in this regard.

Well hello, you can’t operate without a surgeon and the facilities.

There’s no closer hospitals to Tuusula?

I wonder how an 18 year old had a handgun. There isn’t much justification for having a handgun in Finland. Most guns here are for hunting.

Now the pain has only just started for Sturmgeist. When he goes to prison he will meets his fellow inmates. They are certainly eager to meet the guy who shoots children. Even hardened criminals don’t want to hurt children.

This YouTube phenomenon is a little worrysome. In the UK, there is a lot of people hurting other people, filming it, then putting it in YouTube. Some of Al-Qaeda’s executions have ended up there.

“There’s no closer hospitals to Tuusula?”

Apparently not in trauma surgery readiness. Gunshot wounds aren’t that common either.

@11# Phil

“If he were smart he won’t kill himself, the murder sentence in Finland is around 10 years, he’ll be my age when he’s out. Not bad!”

Murder sentence is life in prison, on average 14 years but in these kind of cases as this massacre, people have been sitting around 20 years or more.

“What an interesting turn of events after years of hyporitical comments on US school shootings from smug finns! ”

Well, you guys just beat us again:

“Cops find themselves in arms race with criminals

WEST PALM BEACH, Florida (CNN) — The war on the streets is escalating. As gangs and other criminals pack more firepower, police departments say they find themselves in an arms race…

Assault weapons have been used to kill eight people and wound 25 here over the last two years. Authorities estimate there are about 160 gangs who boast around 7000 members.

“They don’t have .38s anymore. They have AK-47s. …They have automatic weapons now,” said Sgt. Pfeil.

So the Palm Beach Sheriff’s office, like many others across the county, is training and arming everyone on the force with semiautomatic assault weapons. Many officers say it’s about time.

“It’s different now. It’s shootings on a weekly basis. Ten years ago, that just didn’t happen,” said Pfeil. “They don’t get out and run from us anymore. They stop, and they’re shooting at us.”

Murder sentence is life in prison, on average 14 years but in these kind of cases as this massacre, people have been sitting around 20 years or more.

What kind of justice is that, that Tarja Halonen basically decides how long someone should sit in jail?

“Well he did a very high profile murder, so I’ll let him rot in jail for a few more years”

“What kind of justice is that, that Tarja Halonen basically decides how long someone should sit in jail?”

Yes, it sucks.

Aftonbladet is talking about 7 dead so far: http://www.aftonbladet.se/

“…did anyone successfully download this file? If so, could you send it to me so I can post it on my server?

Comment by Phil — Wed, Nov 7th, 2007 @ 3:18 pm”

http://www.kimmo.org/jokela/puretut/

There’s no closer hospitals to Tuusula?
Yes, many of the lesser injured are at hospital in Hyvinkää. But Meilahti is more specialised, so it makes sense to take the worst injured to there. It’s not that far by ambulance or the medi-heli. Even here in Porvoo, very serious conditions are normally taken directly to Helsinki.

“Apparently not in trauma surgery readiness. Gunshot wounds aren’t that common either.”

Please, there is no shortage of trauma cases in Finland. What about all the knifings?

Nothing in Jarvenpaa, Kerava? Might have been useful to stabilize people first somewhere close. Anyway, how many patients could HKL handle? The others are going to have to wait.

Radio Vega is now reporting that the gunman shot himself also.

“altough I choosed the school as target, my motives for the attack are political and much much deeper and therefore I don’t want this to be called only as “school shooting””

OK, answers my question in #6.

Gee, I see you all have your own form of Club Gitmo for the bad guys.

Kinda sucks to be on par with the USA.

Reading his manifesto I realized that Bin Laden is probably just like this guy, the only problem is that the Arabs do not understand when one of them has lost it. I mean, how are Ladens tapes condemding the evil westeners different from what this guy or the unabomber writes? Same shit in a different package. You evil bla blaa blaa, I will kill you all kind of shit.

Number 37 was all mine.

If you all want to water board the guy, I have experience.

Wow, 7 dead in a school shooting in Finland. Even I’m shocked to a certain degree even though I think Finland is far more like the US in many ways than most would like to think.

American way of life er… way of death is getting pace. Some guys are obviously happy with that.

@40

Unfortunately we are like USA when it comes to gun ownership. Top 3 worldwide 1. USA 2. Yemen 3. Finland. Hopefully this tragedy will finally get us as a society to limit gun ownership more.

“This is a great story for anti-gun advocates in the states: Even if you have strict gun laws, the shootings still occur.”

No doubt he got the idea to shoot pupil at his school from the US shootings. Anti-gun advocates can now claim that US gun laws are the reason behind this one too.

Keksi – thanks for that link!

#41

American way of life? Shut the fuck up. Unchecked mental illness!

Normal people do not write manifestos about how evil the world is and then go forth and kill people.

Looks like YouTube removed the video, does anyone have a copy of it?

Worryingly, it’s not confirmed the murderer shot himself. There are some other reports coming out that he could be in hospital amongst the injured.

What also worries me is that the figure of 7 comes from a doctor at just one of the hospitals the victims would have been taken to (Töölö). Of course, it hopefully is a coordinated figure of all the hospitals but I can’t help but wonder if there are actually more deaths from victims taken to other hospitals.

One school shooting from Germany. I don’t think gun laws or the number of gun ownerships has nothing to do with these.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erfurt_massacre

Speechless. What an unoriginal, glory seeking, twisted piss poor wanker. Then again it just shows that this society, as much as we may think otherwiae, is as capable as others in producing scum like this. No doubt we’ll blame American culture and globalisation in the days to come but for now thoughts to the victims and their families/loved ones. Nice to see so many of you thinking about the victims.

School are targetted because there is a large concentration of people with easy access. Where else are you going to find that, the Metro?

The kid writes in excellent English, sounds like was a bright kid.

The Norwegian Dagbladet has the VIDEO on their site: http://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/2007/11/07/517505.html

Thanks Mikael!

to herkku…yes, someone should have had a gun to shoo that guy, oh also..get your head out of your ass, blame the gun again ay ? you ass whipe

After reading the manifesto, the only thing he left out was the comment “If your not outraged then your not paying attention!!!!!!” Where have I heard this before. Then again, this guy is a moonbat-hating moonbat.

How long before he starts receiving love letters in jail?

So now it seems he’s in critical condition at a hospital after a head injury – I’m guessing he tried to shoot himself but didn’t get the job done?

You’re welcome, Phil.
I hope that everyone will say a little prayer for the victims of this horrific incident.

This was bound to happen sooner or later also in Finland, with sick kids like this seeped in the current forms of (American) popular culture. He may have read Plato, Huxley and Nietzsche, but the meme, the model to go to his school and start a rampage he certainly caught from the news, tv or movies, catering US fare. Just read his list of favorites… This is not an issue of gun control, though with more lenient laws he might have been as heavily armed as the Columbine guys, resulting in more deaths.

This is, of course, mainly a question of mental instability, but also of the ways our cultural surroundings offer the options to act that instability out. Without being, sometime or another, spoonfed by the media with the school massacre idea, he would have probably acted like your average Finn, got hammered and knifed one or two of his mates, or more to the point, hanged himself in the barn.

This nutjob is a fine specimen of globalisation.

“This nutjob is a fine specimen of globalisation.”

You’re a fine specimen of bigotry.

This was bound to happen sooner or later also in Finland, with sick kids like this seeped in the current forms of (American) popular culture.

It’s our (Americans) fault, we apologize.

m, #59: Whoa, whole four minutes. It certainly did not take long for the name-calling to start.

well, he writes a lot of shit in excellent english, to me it rather sounds like he is total scum

Guns may not cause this kind of behavior but when you mix guns and nutjobs like we have here, something like this can and eventually will happen.

Truly a horrible incident.

“Whoa, whole four minutes. It certainly did not take long for the name-calling to start.”

Shut up. You’re low enough to blame American culture for this?

Phil, this is as much the Americans’ fault, as an aggregate whole, as as the soaring suicide rates in Finland can be pinned collectively to the Finnish people.

I wrote about the different models offered by different cultural forms, not in anyway trying to blame anybody. It is not very probable this guy invented the whole “School Massacre” thing all by himself. Possible, yes, by not probable.

I don’t think you can say that what has happened in the wider world, be it in the USA or elsewhere, has no bearing on this. Apparently in his videos, there are pictures from Columbine massacre in the USA. So, clearly is has had an influence on him. To blame it on the entirety of American popular culture though is going too far.

However, he was clearly mentally sick. It’s impossible to say or know whether without previous global events, he would not have been led to do these murders today. I don’t think its helpful to put too much blame on other factors other than the murderer himself. Certainly, not at this stage in any case.

Punter is right though, at this stage we are without all the details of even the number that may have tragically lost their lives. We should really be thinking more of them at this time. It’s very sad and shocking for so many children to lose their lives like this.

“This was bound to happen sooner or later also in Finland, with sick kids like this seeped in the current forms of (American) popular culture. ”

What incredible bullshit that the US is to blame for this through its ‘popular culture’. Hey, maybe he is secretly American, too! Finland is violent enough to spawn these guys by itself. What he lacks is originality. http://www.hs.fi/english/article/COMMENTARY+Live+by+the+sword+die+by+the+knife/1135231594059

Indeed, you must feel for the parents who, at their age were just at the point of relaxing thinking that little harm would come to them. It certainly bursts my bubble of thinking that Finland would have been a safer place to raise a child than the US.

JG: “To blame it on the entirety of American popular culture though is going too far.”

JG, like I wrote, this tragedy was mainly caused by the guy being mentally ill. I am not trying to blame the whole of American popular culture for the act, I mean, that would be just absurd, considering the sheer size of the “American popular culture”, what ever it is. That’s why I wrote “current forms”, but reading the comments it should have been “some of the current forms”…

“Punter is right though, at this stage we are without all the details of even the number that may have tragically lost their lives. We should really be thinking more of them at this time. It’s very sad and shocking for so many children to lose their lives like this.”

You are absolutely right.

Gee more gun control. Sure, just ask any DC resident on why there were 5 shootings just this weekend about that law.

Oh i forget, no gun laws, no shootings, just flies in the face of reality on the streets.

But then feel good laws are just what they are. Feel good only.

Drakon, at this time out of my own feelings for the victims I will refrain from letting you know what I think of you and the crap you just wrote but stay tuned. You are indeed very alone at this time.

By the way that was licensed legal firearm. He was shooter club member.
(By the police information)

HS.fi writes: Seven people dead: 5 boys, 2 girls and the principal. (so which one doesn’t count?).

The shooter indeed shot himself in the head and is currently in critical condition. Chances of him staying alive are slim.

I got the feeling that this is not the last incident we will see like this here this year!!!

Typically these GUYS are overlly paranoid while planning the attack. But they will do home work on it. Very rarely will they just wake up on e day and go shoot up a school. He would of conducted a recon of the area, explored an exit and entry strategy. Most probably he would of rehursed the attack in preparation. He already made a youtube video of it to prove the point of a planned attack. But more disturbing is the fact that he would of informed people of the fact this was going to happen days before via internet postings etc… But nobody knew!! atleast he writes as if he is wanting to be part of a group! An inspirational leader figure to others. Emphazising a low self worth and a need to be heard. SO WHO LET WHO DOWN?

http://www.deletedyoutube.ftvteen.com/?v=gSuoQSsY1D8 and http://www.deletedyoutube.ftvteen.com/?v=FErcNl3Tjh0

In fairness to Drakon, I don’t think he was attempting to blame Americans as a people for this. I think he is just highlighting that the copy-cat effect from such similar incidents which have been more prevalent in the USA (or at very least, more reported) can have had a role in this killer’s actions. Indeed, even in Phil’s blog entry he mentions the similarities between the massacre at Virgina Tech at this tragedy, in that both murderers left a “message”/”manifesto” behind.

I think Drakon just made his comments in a slightly vague way, which happens to the best of us at times. I think his comment in 66 and in 69 (in response to me) show that he did not mean his remarks as blaming Americans. Let’s not go overboard on being critical at him for being unclear in his remarks, as I think we’re all guilty of that at times. Plus, it’s rather unpleasant to read people insulting someone for holding a viewpoint, especially on a day like this.

For now, lets follow the events of today, they are not yet fully clear. We should all follow the advice of the authorities, and fly our flags at half-mast tomorrow in memory of the innocent victims.

The impression that I got from his writings was that he was not mentally ill.

He just did not like other people and really felt strong about that.

The minute I’m out of Finland, this happens.

IMHO, the welfare state should pay for blowjobs for these teeny-bopper fuckwads who read a little Friedrich Wilhelm and develop delusional übermensch ideas. The whip is optional.

Well, firearms were invented to kill, efficiently. There would have probably been an attack in the school anyway, but it is a lot easier to overpower someone with a knife (or yelling “bang!”) than someone with a handgun and enough ammo.
So we all get guns to defend from guns. Eventually everyone is armed. Problem solved. Or is it?
In any case, such shootings can be a combination of 3 things:
1. Shooter had access to a gun when he shouldn’t have.
2. Shooter was deranged/mentally ill/angry.
3. There is a culture of using guns to solve disputes/show dissatisfaction with the system/protect one’s self.

I believe that all 3 happen in the US, but only the first two apply here. The parallels are with Virginia Tech are so evident. He was clearly inspired by that and idolized Columbine. So you can try to get counseling to those people at risk, change the culture, and/or discourage gun ownership. All three must be done, but the third one is the fastest/surest way to avoid such carnage.

Otherwise, I guess we can all guns, install metal detectors at schools and be afraid of anyone and everyone dressed in black.

tim73, also look up how the various police forces in the US cannot find enough ammo at a reasonable price because the armaments industry ships to Iraq first, so the police has to scrounge for the high velocity ammo it needs to counter the full-auto weapons that are now legal, thanks to NRA and their hostages, the US congress.

http://bp1.blogger.com/_t7ztqZ_XP3Y/Rss-OvhWIKI/AAAAAAAAADY/0A4DPDkHQ8k/s1600-h/shv.jpg

Thank you for your kind comments, JG. My main point, indeed, was that the shooter most certainly was inspired in his act by the similar and widely reported incidents of the last few years. I also wanted to critizise the fact that violence is so prevalent in mainstream films and TV shows.

It did not come out the way I meant to. I certainly did not aim to blame the American people for this tragedy. I would, therefore, like to apologise to anyone offended by my comments.

Typical mongoloid finn

First my thoughts are with the victims and their families.

Some of you guys talking about how nuts he is sound just as crazy. This has nothing to do with American culture this is Finnish culture, it just so happens Finnish culture looks a lot like American culture. We are both gun crazed cultures that think laws will stop crazy shit from happening.

Laws will not stop this removing all guns will not stop this. This is a mindset that if you dislike something hurt or kill it to show how angry you are. I don’t think there is a law in the world that can stop that. The blame goes so far back their is no point to place it instead we all need to improve ourself.

Personally, I feel badly not only for the victims and their families but the whole country of Finland. This sort of thing weighs on the National consciousness for a long time, just as Columbine, which occurred in 1999, is still very fresh on the minds of Americans. My sympathy for all Finns.

Really, though, this is hardly the time to assign blame.

# 76 “He was not mentally ill”

What crack have you been smoking? He was clearly delusional. He had delusions of grandeur, he was acting out his fantasies of serving justice according to his sick mind. If you need further proof, there allegedly is a video on which he videotaped labels of his depression pills.

I would say he probably swung a lot between depression and mania.

#76: “He just did not like other people and really felt strong about that.”

You’re joking, surely. Not all socio/psychopaths are raving lunatics with bad hair, wild eyes and foam at the mouth. The fact that he killed people for no reason at all surely qualifies him for mentally ill.

Like Drakon wrote above, this kid obviously was influenced by precedents in the US and elsewhere. When Goethe’s literary protagonist Werther killed himself out of desperate love, there followed an epidemic similar suicides by young men around Europe. The phenomenon is nothing new, but the proliferation of media is. I agree that this was bound to happen sooner or later.

The gun issue one shouldn’t touch with a 10-foot pole, but here goes anyway: There are guns made for hunting like bolt-action rifles and double-barreled shotguns that you can find a number of in any farmhouse in Finland (hunting is still a very popular activity). These are very impractical for mass murder because of their low rate of fire, ammo capacity, and concealability. Then there are guns specifically designed for killing people, like the SIG/Sauer this guy used. There is no other use for them, and outside law-enforcement and the military, people just should not have access to them. There’s a reason sports shooters can’t have submachineguns, why should they have these?

I’m not a religious person, but my thoughts are with the victims and their families. What a sad day.

Boy, it was handy for FFT that he blogged in English, eh?

Incidentally, his middle name is Eric, spelled with a “c,” and his English was pretty impeccable. Wonder if he is half expat or something?

Drakon: Of course you should blame it on Americans and throw also a friggin jackhammer after them. Those Yanks should be put into somekind of former Indian reservation camp or something.

Anyway, I think police did tactically everything right, strategically everything wrong. Retreat, seal off the area, wait for the SWAT team, tanks and artillery, sort out command and control structure… meanwhile our mad happy killer just went on rampage. Of course it is easy to be a besserwisser but for the future it might be beneficial to think these things over.

Tim, you just made an ass of yourself. You are a low prick.

“You’re joking, surely. Not all socio/psychopaths are raving lunatics with bad hair, wild eyes and foam at the mouth. The fact that he killed people for no reason at all surely qualifies him for mentally ill.”

– What do you mean no reason. Read his manifesto. He had all sorts of reasons. They are not valid reasons for you or me, but they were to him. Killing does not make a person mentally ill, it makes him a murderer.

– And for those of you who see getting rid of the guns as the solution, how are you going to stop people like this from making bombs?

It is my opinion that he was not mentally ill.

Another fucking delusional loser whose parents were apparently sniffing glue for the past ten years of his life. Kids like this don’t just wake up one morning and decide they’re going to kill a few people. There are always clear indicators that teenagers like this are not right mentally, and need serious and continuous psychological intervention. This really doesn’t have much to do about gun control in Finland, although it will became the cause of the day especially for the left, just as it did Australia after the Tasmania massacre.

As someone who has lived and worked in the Upper Midwest of the US for ten years (lots of gun ownership), I think I have gotten a decent grasp of gun culture here. 99.999% of people here have guns for hunting or self-protection, they have respect for the laws, and will not use their guns for anything else. To take away the guns from these people is absolutely pointless because when one individual wants to kill some people for some pointless reason, they will always find their way to a gun.

I feel awful for the families of the teens that were killed today. Hopefully, this kid gets more than 10 years, and its a shame his parents won’t be in the same cell.

Sankaruus vs. suomalaisuus – you be the judge:

Students of an Israeli lecturer who died in the Monday massacre at a Vriginia Tech said he saved the lives of several students by blocking the doorway of his classroom from the approaching gunman before he was fatally shot, his son said Tuesday.
“My father blocked the doorway with his body and asked the students to flee,” Joe Librescu said from his home outside of Tel Aviv. “Students started opening windows and jumping out.”
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/849070.html

Kim Kiuru, a teacher at the [Jokela] school, said the principal announced over the public address system just before noon that all students should remain in their classrooms.
“I stayed in the corridor to listen to more instructions having locked my classroom door,” Kiuru told the YLE radio station. “After that I saw the gunman running with what appeared to be a small-caliber handgun in his hand through the doors toward me after which I escaped to the corridor downstairs and ran in the opposite direction.”
Kiuru said he saw a woman’s body as he fled the building.
“Then my pupils shouted at me out of the windows to ask what they should do and I told them to jump out of the windows … and all my pupils were saved,” Kiuru said.
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20071107/D8SOUDG80.html

Two interesting passages from:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=492268&in_page_id=1811

“Going only by the username Sturmgeist89, he calls himself a “social darwinist”. “I am prepared to fight and die for my cause,” read a posting by a user of the same name.”

Social Darwinist? What do you think that means? Just asking.

ALSO:

>>>>>>>>>>The shootings are the first such incidents in Finnish history – previous school confrontations have involved knives at worst and no one has died.”<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>The shootings are the first such incidents in Finnish history – previous school confrontations have involved knives at worst and no one has died.”<<<<<<<<<<

Thank you.
Discuss.

Phil, are you happy now that obviously someone who shares a lot of your ideology is getting some media exposure for the ideas of freedom, social darwinism and general übermenschness?

Don’t squirm. You may not be pointing guns at people, but this guy’s writing and that of his ilk is something I see from Libertarians on the net all the time.

I don’t know why that was posted twice just now. Here it is, more clearly.

>>>>>>>>>>The shootings are the first such incidents in Finnish history – previous school confrontations have involved knives at worst and no one has died.”<<<<<<<<<<

I find it interesting that so many are trying to make a political point out of this. Like what happened at Virginia Tech, this was a mentally ill person who used a weapon he legally owned because he fell through the cracks and no one (or not the right people) saw how dangerous he was. The only possible point in both cases is that society needs to do a better job determining who is a threat to society. How, or if this is even possible, I have no idea. You can’t just lock someone up because you think they might be dangerous.

It’s got to be bad for the victim’s families, and yes, even his family.

#88

When a person goes out and kills people after writing a manifesto.
It is not normal behaviour. I do not know where you get this “it is normal behaviour” from. (Personal feelings?) But it is not normal behaviour. I repeat, it is not normal behaviour.

Sadly. In Finland, I often find that sociopaths like Linkola (whom his mother adores) are glorified and not seen for what they are, sociopaths ! It does not matter if he said himself that he is not crazy. I mean, how often do you see crazy people admitting they are crazy. Very rarely. He was (is?) nuts. Nuts, nuts, nuts.

What comes to guns, the trouble comes from handguns and their too easy availability. Phil might call the Finnish gun control laws tight, but I think they are too lax. Mainly, it is too easy to get your hands on pistols – you just need to join a shooting club. If you don’t have criminal record, it is all there. Hunting weapons are a different things – they are more bulky and as such harder to use for crimes.

Of course, this specific case would have done something even if he would not had access to a gun. Killing people with an axe is just much harder than going at a shooting rampage – not to mention that building bombs requires some expertise, for example. The real blame is in the right wing governments that have cut mental health resources. The killer had been “treated” for depression and just shoved off with medicines instead of proper treatment. The subway killer of 2004 was likewise not given treatment, even though he pretty much begged for it before lodging his axe in the skull of a passerby. With less taxes and less healthcare, there would be even more such nutcases wandering about, untreated and dangerous.

Phil, are you happy now that obviously someone who shares a lot of your ideology is getting some media exposure for the ideas of freedom, social darwinism and general übermenschness?

Which of my views does he share?

#96 “The real blame is in the right wing governments that have cut mental health resources. The killer had been “treated” for depression and just shoved off with medicines instead of proper treatment. The subway killer of 2004 was likewise not given treatment, even though he pretty much begged for it before lodging his axe in the skull of a passerby. With less taxes and less healthcare, there would be even more such nutcases wandering about, untreated and dangerous.”

I don’t want to go around blaming people, but I think you have a very good point here, though I’m not sure I agree with your first paragraph. Treating mental illness is expensive and time-consuming. It can save innocent lives, however.

#96

What if there is no one to blame.

People go nuts.

Somethings you just can not fix.

Especially when those things are inside the heads of people.

The fact that he got his pills means that at least the doctors tried to do something.

It just did not work. What else could they have done? Lobotomy?

A lot of guys go nuts at his age; the army service is due, you are confused about the opposite sex, you might have trouble fitting in etc. That combined with psychiatric problems is dry powder that got a spark in his case.

I think there should be a psychiatric background check on getting guns from now on. But that probably wont help much. I personally knew 2 guys who shot themselves with their parents guns in their teens. The other was 15 the other 18. Oh what a paradise Finland is!

Well I think that it’s too bad someone has a mental illness. They should go to the private health organizations and pay to get treated. Why should I have to pay taxes to help someone else?
His problems, not mine, right Phil?
Oh, I should also be allowed to buy an automatic pistol so I can defend myself from him. It is really cheaper to let everyone buy guns and go through a couple of shootings every year than to prevent and treat illness… right? right?

#100

He got pills? That is the way docs act here when they see someone with depression. What should they have done? Taken him to a clinic for a half a year and pumped him full of thorazine? I mean, if doctors did that to everyone in Finland who is depressed.. We would need some pretty massive mental hospitals indeed.

“The real blame is in the right wing governments that have cut mental health resources.”

Jaska, this incident took place in Finland. Explain to me how the right wing governments have been cutting mental health resources in Finland. I’m not shooting you down… I’m dying to hear the reasoning behind this.

99 – Medicines, “happy pills” and the like are often given to patients simply because the doctors don’t have time to give them therapy. Mental healthcare professionals say this aloud themselves. Anecdotal evidence is not evidence – but nevertheless, I have a friend who was deeply depressed and was only let in to therapy after he attempted suicide, almost succeeding. The pills he was taking mainly gave him energy to try to kill himself. I’m not against medication as a whole, of course and some light cases can be solved with pills alone. However mental treatment as a whole can’t rely only on pills. They don’t really solve the problem, they only hide the symptoms.

@98 “Phil, are you happy now that obviously someone who shares a lot of your ideology is getting some media exposure for the ideas of freedom, social darwinism and general übermenschness?”

Hyi yök. How can you insinuate that Phil and this whack-job share the same views? Phil’s website may sound critical, but that is the culture of this blog. People are addicted to the controversial articles here. And some of the issues are very valid.

Unfortunately, it isn’t the first incident in Finland like this. In 1989 in Rauma a 14 year old who was bullied shot and killed two classmates.

101, the point is that he obviously had other problems too that would have neededmore treatment than just pills. A few therapy sessions can often work wonders on teenagers suffering from teen angst.

102, after the economical depression in the early nineties, the political parties in charge used the “moment of crisis” to their advantage. They put forth succesfully in the media an idea that “expenses” from things such as healthcare would need to be cut dramatically in order for the country to survive. This was motivated by political ideology, not only the economical situation. Sweden was in almost same kind of situation, they chose different policy and are doing fine in this regard – so the reasoning behind the rhetorics the holders of power at the time used has been proven baseless.

Following governments, that have contained both right-wing parties and the social democrats, have never replaced the holes left in the social safety nets by those cuts. Likewise, nowadays the government is pushing more and more demands on municipal communities about taking care of healthcare and such, without giving them any more money. Yeah, well, I could write an essay about this… but that is my reasoning in short. Saying “right wing governments” was perhaps a bit too provocative, as the issue is complicated and all three big parties are at fault (though the right wingers done the big cuts).

Oh noes, his supposed (ex-)girlfriend is a libertard: http://www.expressen.se/nyheter/1.916482/ex-flickvannen-han-ar-inte-galen http://youtube.com/user/tanascheel

No wonder he did what he did, lesser things would drive a man mad.

Oh and when I say “right wingers”, I don’t mean only the conservative party, but as well the people in the other two big parties who seem inclined towards free market liberalism in regards of society as a whole. There are such people in almost all political parties.

I knew a guy like this back in school. In the 1980′s, the school shootings had not occurred yet, and noone had any idea how dangerous this could be. He went around in Army and Marine t-shirts that said things like “kill em all, let God sort em out” or “join the Army, travel to exotic places, meet exotic people, and kill them.”

He was making pipe bombs with his friend for fun one weekend. The friend was screwing one of the ends onto the pipe, and it ground a little gunpowder that was sitting on the edge and ignited it. The friend was killed and the guy was maimed. He never was able to pursue a career in the Army or Marines.

It would be useful for teachers and students to get training to identify people like this, and get them help before hand before something tragic happens.

Here is a link to killer’s father:

http://www.kolumbus.fi/pikkulauri/bigpapa.htm

Ugh, pulling his father in to the discussion is a pretty cheap shot – especially as the pages don’t have anything even remotely connected to the case.

“Unfortunately, it isn’t the first incident in Finland like this. In 1989 in Rauma a 14 year old who was bullied shot and killed two classmates.”

There is the Myrmaki bombings from a couple years back. Don’t forget that either.

What is it Tim that gets you off on being a prick? Can’t you of all people show some humanity and sensitivity for others? You are always gloating the evils of free markets and their lack of care for others in society. How the hell can you, of all people ona day like this, go around making your stupid comments looking to blame evil America and then identify the father.
You are a cheap and gutless piece of human trash. I wish nothing but misery for you.

112, I’d say that those cases were different. In Rauma, it was more of a “normal” premeditated double homicide that just happened to take place in school. In the case of Myyrmanni bomb, it never became clear if it was intentional. Even the police speculated that the bomb went off prematurely and Gerdt was planning either to leave it in the mall and detonate it from afar – or take it to woods to blow up for fun, like he had done before with many other bombs.

Now let’s hope that Tarja Halonen does something right instead of sitting on her ass all day making irrelevant comments and gives this piece of shit at leat 25 years of prison time and make him an example of what is coming for the next wise guy who tries this stunt again.

“Sankaruus vs. suomalaisuus – you be the judge”

Are you saying that all Finns are cowards because of the behaviour of one teacher, or do you mean that all Isralis/Americans are heroes because of the behaviour of one teacher?

“Now let’s hope that Tarja Halonen does something right instead of sitting on her ass all day making irrelevant comments and gives this piece of shit at leat 25 years of prison time and make him an example of what is coming for the next wise guy who tries this stunt again.”

Tarja won’t be in office in 25 years.

“Anyway, I think police did tactically everything right, strategically everything wrong. Retreat, seal off the area, wait for the SWAT team, tanks and artillery, sort out command and control structure… meanwhile our mad happy killer just went on rampage. Of course it is easy to be a besserwisser but for the future it might be beneficial to think these things over.”

The police gets a 112 (for 911) call from somebody who only says “they are shooting at here” and you suppose the police would know and understand the scenario based only on that phone call? From their point of view it can be anything. A prank call, a hostige situation, or a looney who is just popping people randomly. The police cannot rush into the building like they do in American movies and TV series. This is reality, not a movie. First they need to find out exactly what is the situation and then act like they are trained to do in that scenario. Nothing more nothing less. The police can’t do any movie stunts because it might cause several innocent people to die. In the real world that is. Meanwhile, the police is still doing their job at the spot, just like they are trained to do. You drink your hot chocolate behind the screen and blame the police, but try to understand what kind of job they really have. At this time they are probably finished collecting dead children.

“You are a cheap and gutless piece of human trash. I wish nothing but misery for you.”

Well well, look who is talking. You piece of shit always critize about how fucked up Finland is. Why don’t you just move you ass across the pond, what the hell is keeping you here?!

“You drink your hot chocolate behind the screen and blame the police, but try to understand what kind of job they really have”

I didn’t blame to police. I just said that in these school shootings those “seal off area”-tactics might not work so well as in those traditional drunken wife-beater with a shotgun – situations.

US globalist school-shooting culture has reached Finland.
US supreme court is suing Finland for copyright violations, School shootings is an American registered trademark.

The guy was clearly insane and extremly ugly, nobody wanted to be with him because he was so ugly, so he became anti-social and full of hate…

R.I.P to all innocent students, and may that ugly ass lappo-finn rot in hell!

About that link: It was quite easily available and you can also use that link to send condolences to the Auvinen’s family. I’d bet they got a lot of hate email already.

Well, this has certainly been a quality discussion, right from the very first comment about the killers’ poor taste in music and bad video-editing skills. Keep up the good work.

What is needed is :
-more pshychologist, maybe more nurse to take care of this youth that seems to lose any sense of positive view on the future.

I’m just correlating that to the high level of suicide in Finland as well as the high number of divorce.

That give a point to the nurse cause… There is a shortage of them. The government doesn’t want to pay them correctly as a result there is no time to take care of the “non physical wounded” since not enough staff. The government prefers to sit on a surplus instead on investing in the “social” infrastructure or on people.

-Maybe we should buy a “Smile” to a majority of people in Finland and teach them the American way to say “How u doin!” to people that pass by (in my experience, i tried to great some neighbourgs, they look straight the other side or ignore you or are shocked when you talk to them..but with time, they unfreeze…)…my point is that people here are far too cold in their behaviour, no wonder why the children get depressed at some point… people should unstress naturally not by drinking… But Don’t genealize some are the opposite…

Regarding the youth, think about it. Their school grant has not much move in the past 20 years, the rent they have to pay have sky rocketed, they can’t afford to buy a flat or house unless they a debt for 20 years for 20m2, oil and food inflation is goin’ crazy.

“I didn’t blame to police. I just said that in these school shootings those “seal off area”-tactics might not work so well as in those traditional drunken wife-beater with a shotgun – situations.”

They can’t possibly know what tactics to use until they know exactly what is the situation. But what they can do safely in any situation, is to seal off the area. So that is what they will do first. The next thing is to do some recon and try to contact the shooter/s. At this time the command post is being based and the SWAT specialists have arrived on the spot. Then the police commander makes the decision what to do. Despite these school shootings are a relatively new thing in Finland, I didn’t see any serious flaws in their work.

My heart goes out to those injured and killed at this school. It’s depressing that things like this happens and that he could not get the help he needed in time to save these innocent people.

No need to fight over who is right and wrong right now. Just hope that the injured get better.

I feel sorry for the killer and his family as well. He was obviously suffering from mental problems and was bullied at school. Perhaps the people he shot were his bullies – that has been the trend in school massacres. Not that it would make it any more acceptable, but I’m sure many kids subject to bullying entertain such fantasies of vengeance.

Also sprach Franklin:

“the welfare state should pay for blowjobs for these teeny-bopper fuckwads who read a little Friedrich Wilhelm and develop delusional übermensch ideas. The whip is optional.”

I’m inclined to agree. Another option would be a special philosopher state on distant island, where all the unfree idiosyncratic masses are already eliminated and Herr Ãœbermensch must figure out himself, how to put fire under the power plant boiler and get food on the table. I bet certain big mouth free minds would meet their natural selection starving in dark and cold.

Greatest irony would be that this shooter guy somehow survives as a vegetable with barely enough wits to comprehend his own situation.

OK, off with venting. This is bloody awful. I’m sorry for those kids. The world will turn it’s ugly face for everyone sooner or later or one way or another but this is so unreasonable and the sacrifice so futile.

Well this somehow didn’t come as a surprise.
The persona was there (and like it have been always).
The tools are there, but weapon discussion is almost irrelevant. If you wish to kill, then you do, gun or no gun.

Also the posteriority is now there, as you can easily leave a live tombstone of yourself on the net for everyone to see, perhaps with a false sense that then somebody will care about what you thought or had to say.

All in all, this is not a political question. It’s about social evolution, it is about wealth and leisure that make it possible to create your own world and stay in there. It is also about the sense of the whole world connecting and (in some individuals) the feeling of getting utterly lost in this new global place.

Also he probably had his tax records published and that made him totally flip out and shoot people.

Don’t know if this was posted

http://baanaweb.fi/hannu.luhtasela/tuusula/

Some website with his crap in it.

The beeb via NPR just said that the dude is dead.

Nine dead. The shooter didn’t survive either.

“the rent they have to pay have sky rocketed, they can’t afford to buy a flat or house unless they a debt for 20 years for 20m2, oil and food inflation is goin’ crazy.”

I have to work for two weeks to get to get the monthly rent money for a small single room flat. I wouldn’t shoot anyone because of that but I am leaving the country though.

Ditto to No 123. This blog has been commenting so much about everyday nonsense…PM adulterous behaviour, Finnish drunkiness, prostitution, etc. etc…when something really bad happens such as this one, still folks here use the same old jargon…name calling, finger pointing, childish behaviour…look closer and see what’s really wrong…that troubled boy ’hated’ humanity and acted insanely…perhaps the anthithesis would be for people to be more compassionate, more humane, and more sane…even in writing these blogs. But then again, if you would not be venting your anger here…I daren’t think you would be off shooting people, too. For the aetheist folks, try anger management lessons and for those who believe in God, now is a good time to pray.

According to MTV3 news, the teacher Kim Kiuru tried to shut fire doors with another teacher in order to block the shooter’s advance, when he confronted the shooter in the school hallway. Kiuru escaped this situation and got his students out of the window from the outside. He saw his co-worker (apparently the school principal) lying dead in the yard.

So much about him being “a coward”, like some dim-wit smart-asses here have claimed him to be. How bloody “brave” would you be in a situation like that?! He tried to stop the advance of an armed psycho and then managed to save his students.

Job well done, I would say.

No amount of counseling or therapy will heal a homicidal sociopath. They are incurable, and the only way to eliminate the threat they pose is to institutionalize them, permanently. This, of course, is very problematic. Psychosis is a different thing altogether, and this shooter didn’t seem psychotic.

“For the aetheist folks, try anger management lessons”

What the hell has atheism got to do with any of this?

Unfortunately, this sad episode might cause another copycat case somewhere else in the world.

I wonder if any early warning signs can be deduced from these events, and thus some future tragedies can be averted.

And quite frankly, why do people – except the police etc – need handguns?

I’m a Canadian of direct Finnish descent. Sad to hear about this shooting. Evil has permeated every corner and nook of this world. God help us!

This reminds me of the Myyrmanni bombings. Anybody feeling the same?

“And quite frankly, why do people – except the police etc – need handguns?”
– People should have the right to own a handgun for two reason: 1. criminals have them 2. Police cannot be everywhere all the time, especially in the Finnish countryside.

In Finland anything can be a weapon. “Engineer kills wife with frying pan” That was one of the Finnish headlines I remember. In the US drunk drivers kill more people than handguns. (Probably in Finland as well.)

On the other hand, frying pans and cars are not designed with the aim to be used for harm. Guns are. Both frying pans and cars serve useful purposes, cooking and transport; it’s hard to say that about guns. There is a genuine need for weapons amongst only a very small group of people, such as police. The rest would be better off out of society.

@139: Instances of firearm-related injuries to innocent bystanders and crime victims (in cases like burglaries, robberies & such) are extremely rare. Guns are mostly used in violence between rival criminal groups, and even that is pretty rare. I’ll hell of a lot rather be without a handgun, and at ease with the knowledge that not every drunken asshole (and there’s plenty!) I come across might be packing heat. Give a handgun to everyone here and there would be at least a dozen shootouts every Friday and Saturday night, guaranteed.

Rare in Finland, that is.

I wonder when someone starts a killing spree after reading all these comments

And Allah P. (137) fuck your melodramatic shit.

this guy did have a permit, which he recieved in october. i’m kind of sickened that this shit is happening here, finland, my new home since i relocated from bushistan. but he did have a permit. are there psychological exams involved in the permit process? and i just gotta say that this is a pretty lame excuse for phil-bashing, for those of you who been doing it on this post. dude had a permit.

Marko: “According to MTV3 news, the teacher Kim Kiuru… He tried to stop the advance of an armed psycho and then managed to save his students.

Job well done, I would say.”

Second that. There was no way his facing an armed killer with nothing but bare hands would have made the situation better for his students, who were already in comparative safety behind the locked door at that point. His dying “heroically” in front of the class door would have been pointless: to me it seems the killer did not try to force class doors open. Even if the shooter would have broken into the class, Kiuru could have only slowed him down, not stopped him.

I wish people would stop talking about this screwed-up kid, his manifestos, videos and pictures. If you take a look at his parents, especially his mothers, profiles on the web, you start getting an idea why he was so fucked up. If a teenage kid who lives at home can shoot guns and upload these kind of videos to the internet, there is no fucking way responsible parents would not notice that.

We should think of the victims, how unfair it is for these young people to have their lives taken away and say a prayer for them. The killer and his fucked-up family are not worth any thoughts.

“are there psychological exams involved in the permit process? ”

Police checks that you do not have “recent” criminal record (depends on what type of crime you have committed if any) and you have to show the purpose for the gun. Personal protection is not accepted reason but joining shooting club is (like the killer did). Usually one gets .22 first permit first and maybe a little later permits for bigger guns. For hunting weapons like shotgun you have to pass the hunter’s exam before getting the permit.

To the a-hole who posted the “suomalaisuus vs. sankaruus” thing:

What do you think Kiuru would’ve accomplished by staying on the corridor? You think he would’ve somehow wrestled with the guy and knocked him out? The guy that was coming towards him with a raised gun, poised to shoot him in the head. Kiuru had locked his pupils in the classroom and was checking out the situation in the corridoor with another teacher. Had he stayed he would only had received a bullet to the brain.

Oh and by the way, none of his students were harmed.

Now I know where the term “you don’t know Jack shit” comes from, 147.

Where do you – or any of you – get off judging his parents, society, the kid’s mental health or anything?

What makes this especially offensive, Jack, is your immediate laying of blame on the mother. Where, exactly, do you get your information from? How can you possibly know anything about the parents? Do you know them?

Do you have teenage kids? Do you know exactly what they are doing 24/7? Of course the answer to both of these questions is “no,” and if you do have teenage kids you are lying both to yourself and to everyone else if you claim that you do know what they are doing online and in their private lives.

The “kid” was 18 years old and as such not a juvenile. Blaming the mother is soooo last century, Jack, soooo Freudian.

You want to blame someone, blame the shooter, blame the mental health care system here, blame the fact that he was able to get his hands on a gun legally, blame the crumbling of society, blame, blame, blame. But to blame the mother “especially” is really f’d up and perhaps you should look into personal issues concerning your relationship with your own mother before defaming a woman you don’t know and have so quickly judged.

Well, I’d say the only thing they might do more to getting the permit is would be you’d need to get a medical certificate stating you’re not treated for mental instability.

If you take a look at his parents, especially his mothers, profiles on the web, you start getting an idea why he was so fucked up.

Whats wrong with his parents running their own recording studio? The most musicians’ kids I know have grown up in an open and cosmopolitan environment – more than your average kid with 9-5 office working conservative parents. I wouldn’t go on the “blame the parents” necessarily, most of the kids gone bonkers here in Finland are from your “regular” homes anyways.

I find the whole thing so sad and such a waste.. The guy seemed to be intelligent, couldn’t he have put his energy into something constructive? There were YouTube videos and files on web servers like “Jo kela_High_School_Massacre”? Did nobody notice anything going wrong? That YouTube has become a soapbox for all kinds on lunatics!

In the end my heart goes out to the families of the victims, especially the parents of the kids. You send your child to school like you’d done countless times before and they don’t come home, what a nightmare and it’s only just starting..

I lost my brother in a hit and run 10 years ago, it ripped my parents in two, they’ve never been the same since. My brother’s best friend called up to see my mother only the other day, she hadn’t seen him in 9 years, he couldn’t handle it at all. The moron who committed the crime is still around and back on the road, whatever.. Having been through all that and with now a child of my own on the way it makes things like this all the more poignant. As my wife said this morning you never know when it’s your time to go, any day can be your last so enjoy each moment..

NO words – only tears.

It’s not guns that kill people, but people who kill people. I mean, nine hits, eight deaths. Only a heart-bleeding liberal could think that a gun, any gun, alone could manage that kind of precision shooting. So don’t ban guns, just ban practising with them.

Gee, first reaction here is to blame Bush, then ask for another gov program to fix what?

Does parenting 101 come to mind? Maby a little church? Uh god, can’t be PC and say a little more parents and morality is a road to follow.

Only one poster (89) asked the big question? Where are his parents? Only Matti has a clue on this blog.

winter, there isn’t any point in trying to troll-up this conversation. Your comments show you for what you truly are.

Scum.

Parents can’t do much if the child is a determined fanatic bent on (self)destruction. Even good parents’ children can go bad.

It’s true that guns don’t kill people by themselves, there has to be someone using the gun, but it’s equally true that it is a lot harder to commit mass murder without a gun. So both views make sense. But let’s just think this through: are we safer with a lot of easily accessible guns around, or with strict rules for gun permits? Which makes more sense? Are the deranged people out there perhaps less likely to commit mass murder if they don’t have guns? That’s at least how it seems.

#155: I believe the expression is “bleeding-heart”.

Thank you for playing.

“are we safer with a lot of easily accessible guns around, or with strict rules for gun permits? Which makes more sense?”

– In the case of Washington, DC and other major cities with strict gun laws, or in the case of DC, a gun ban, the laws do not work. Those places have much higher levels of gun crime than in states that are more permissive of gun ownership.

– The UK is another example of a place where gun crime has increased after banning the legal ownership of guns.

In addition, by banning the gun, there will just be a drive to develop an alternative.

My best friend committed suicide some time ago. He had made it very clear he couldn’t care less what happened when he was gone (something I surely didn’t agree with). Had he been pissed at someone, he might have very well taken that person (or several) with him.

Isn’t it obvious that out of the annual several hundred (I assume) people in Finland who take their own life, there are bound to be dozens who simply don’t give a fuck about anything anymore. And out of those, every now and then, there is someone who will go out with a bang.

“In addition, by banning the gun, there will just be a drive to develop an alternative.” – Fred Fry

Like a dirty bomb made of old underwear and firecrackers.

yeah sure typical Finnish mentality, blame it on alcohol, taxes, the government…what else ? How about someone taking responsibility for what this kid was doing ? Surely the parents had to have seen some signs if they even paid attention. Finland already has a dubious reputation for vandalism, violence and suicide among teenagers. Just the other day I was reading something on Lansiväyla about young thugs in Vantaa vandalizong an elementary school by smearing shit on the walls.

@89 Matti is completely right and it is about time you Finns take a look on the mirror and do something about these young thugs running around becasue they are the future of your country and they will continue the sorry trend that I see of the highest alcoholism, suicide and violence in Europe

@”Look at yourself Finns”

Fuck you and your stupid stereotypes. This may be an inbred country, but don’t for a minute think we’re all alike.

Yes, yes, 164., the sky is falling. The sky is falling.

Don’t bring your mother, you and your half-cousin into this, 166.

“it is about time you Finns take a look on the mirror ” – Look at yourself Finns — Thu, Nov 8th, 2007 @ 6:13 pm

“take a look on the mirror??” only a Finn would write a sentence like that. Nice troll.

“9 hits 8 deaths”

Ummm… 69 used shells and 400+ rounds of ammo?

#161: In the US, strict regulations on firearms in some states and in particular cities are pointless since guns can be bought from the 7-11 in others. Any effective gun control needs to be based on a federal policy and, of course, trying to implement one would result in another civil war. So it’ll be Bang! Bang! for the foreseeable future.

Back to this side of the pond. So. A licence was denied from S. Sillanpää, but one was given to this 18-year-old kid currently on psychiatric medication. Way to go, Tuusula police! Like with Mika Muranen, this can be traced to a major official fuckup.

As for the similarities of Pekka-Eric’s and Phil’s ideologies – come on! His manifesto was essentially an anti-welfare state diatribe. Ayn Rand would have been so proud. Strange indeed that Atlas Shrugged wasn’t among his favourites. I am sure that he purposefully chose the school headmaster and the school nurse as his victims as they represented the two most important aspects of the welfare state. What a shame that Pundy no longer graces us with his presence. I bet he would be toasting Pekka-Eric right now.

Incidentally, I visited the KGB museum in Vilnius today, a quite gruesome display of the practical application of dynamic ideologies, quite similar regardless of the colour of the banner.

hey morons, it is true that Finland has one of the highest rates of family violence, suicide and alcoholim… I am not stereotyping… It is true and unless you acknowledge and start doing something about it it will continue and the growing vandalism in Vantaa is totally true… hurts doesn’t it ?

Gee. where is the huge spending Gov program to fix this kid?

Comming soon to Finland I bet.

And it will fail, without a stable home environment with 2 carring parents, a man and a wife.

Am I the only one to see the left wing agenda to destroy the 2 parent family, with rights for every left wing fantacy out there?

This Pekka-Eric tried to get a permit to 9mm initially, fortunately he did not get one. There would have been maybe 20 victims instead of eight because it would have been pretty much 1-2 bullets per victim, instead of 5-6 now.

“#161: In the US, strict regulations on firearms in some states and in particular cities are pointless since guns can be bought from the 7-11 in others. Any effective gun control needs to be based on a federal policy and, of course, trying to implement one would result in another civil war. So it’ll be Bang! Bang! for the foreseeable future.”

– But funny how the anarcy does not extend to those states with ‘easier’ access to guns. (There is Federal rules on Handgun purchases, so it is not 100% a state issue.) Anyway, a DC resident cannot go to Virginia and legally buy a gun. Just like a resident of New York City cannot legally buy a gun on Long Island.
– You forgot about the UK, which did impliment Federal Handgun control.

#173

It seems that you don’t know anything about firearms, so please shut the fuck up.

Fred Fred Fred

Facts are not what he wants. He wants feel good hand gun control. The FACT that what he proposes does not work is well, silly to him.

anon: “shut the fuck up” really shows your level of expertise…

winnie, Pekka-Eric lived in a house in Jokela with his mother and father, who definitely were a woman and a man. I don’t fully understand where you’re getting at.

By the way, did you know that the KGB renounced nasty physical torture in 1953, upon Stalin’s death, and only sticked to nice, Gitmo-style torture from there on? The padded cell with the straitjacket and cuffs was a blast! I can only recommend a relaxing weekend at club KGB for you!

Gee club KGB? As nice as my stay in SEER School? Water drip and all?

By the way the water drip thing is blown way out of porportion. It was actually nice compared to the beatings you get all the time.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7083629.stm
It seems the main problem in the UK is illegal guns coming into their country from abroad and that some countries, even in EU like Czech Republic, have very lax laws. If you look at the table, it seems gun deaths in Britain are not going up.

In any case, it’s not very easy to compare American gun crime with Finnish or other western European countries. The attitudes, laws and systems make an ease of comparison too difficult and misleading.

When it comes to guns, I would say Finland has more in common with Canada. We have a high number in circulation due to hunting and sports etc, but a low level of gun crime as a whole. In murders, around 14% use a gun in Finland, compared to 39% in USA.

That said, our gun crime rate is still unacceptably high and I think it is too easy to get a gun here. The law should be tightened, but in a reasonable way. There is no need to over do it yet here. I can see an argument for making it only those who have passed the hunting exam to get guns for just hunting. Certainly you can argue that depriving people of sports pistols etc for use in other gun sport is a restriction of freedom, perhaps it is. But society is a question of balances, and I think in this case that restriction is acceptable. No one needs to use guns in sport and it may contribute even a little to making guns harder to get hold.

—
On a different matter, I am shocked at how tasteless some of the remarks are on here in light of what has happened. People slamming the murderer’s family etc in most unpleasant ways and making stupid accusations. All the people making these remarks do is show the shortcomings in themselves, rather than highlight any failures in anyone involved in this tragic affair.

Look, when a ship sinks, you blame the Captain. For some reason, the left thinks that at Mom and Dad should just let their kids grow up unsupervised, and with no moral direction.

For some reason, I think, that a 2 parent family, with morals is a good thing to have.

Thus your opposition to blaming the Mom and Dad is well known and well opposed.

When something like this happens, I blame the parents, not Bush, not the state (unless the state is into breaking up the 2 parent family). I will only back off when shown compelling evadence otherwise.

When that woman lost her shit in the gun club several years ago, was there any talk of tightening gun control laws?

How can anyone who claims to have “moral direction” then go on to condemn people that he clearly does not know anything about.

What was it the Bible said about your neighbor, scum?

“Condem”, no I just want responsability.

#182 Dave. I was wondering about that case too. I remember she “lost it”, shot a few people (can’t remember how many) and was caught at the airport after dumping the gun in a bin. Just another case of no gun crime here? I think it is all too obvious that guns do lead to gun crime. It’s not rocket science. Why these people are losing it is half of the problem but the orher half most certainly in my mind rests with guns and the availability of them.

Your spelling really bites.

And you did condemn them, even if you can’t spell condemn.

The fact of the matter is, some 1 in 3 Finnish households have a working gun in them (a figure I really have a hard time believing, I have never even seen a real gun in someone’s hands here), so even if there were a tightening of the issuing of gun permits, there would still be a bazillion guns out there waiting for someone to lose their shit.

“Guns don’t kill people” – sure, and H-bombs don’t really destroy cities, so why the whining about Eye-Ran and North Koria?

Dave, in Sillanpää’s case the system was not the problem, as she was denied a permit. The problem was the lax policy of the Helsinki Shooting Club that put a .44 in the hand of any nutjob who entered their premises. Great place if you want to target practice with a Desert Eagle without prior experience with firearms.

Thanks for the tip, Franklin. I walk by there all the time.

Fred, I suppose that Texas and Louisiana, being trigger-happy states, are crime-free?

““Guns don’t kill people” – sure, and H-bombs don’t really destroy cities, so why the whining about Eye-Ran and North Koria?”
– Because Eye-Ran and North Korea are clearly ‘mentally ill’.

Or do we need to wait for them to kill first?

Well, his daddy surely is not hiding:

http://muusikoiden.net/keskustelu/posts.php?c=38&t=155439

(BigPapa)

His daddy made a song for his son:

http://muusikoiden.net/keskustelu/posts.php?c=38&t=155439

(BigPapa).

Fred, don’t start it again here. Not in relation to this.

Dave, the guns are mostly shotguns in rural areas. Those in major towns belong mostly to the hunting bättre folk (in the broad sense, JG) and the very occasional .44-packing gun nut.

Fred, are you proposing “gun control” against Iran and NK? Why not just let everyone have nukyaler weapons? That way we’d all be safe!

About the gun laws, it’s better to have a lot of licenced handguns than a lot of unlicenced handguns. Simply so that the police has atleast some idea who has access to a certain type of weapon. That makes the crime investigation quite a lot easier in most cases. Therefore I support the Finnish system of making handguns available but with a licence.

i knew that auvinen.. we was at same high school, what an idiot.. talk all around. first he was communist then he was a nazi.. jeesus what an douchebag, rolling around the school with a briefcase in his hand and tell how hitler is god or how humanity sucks today and anytime we had talk for something about politic “he was right”. damn that i don’t heared anything about this massmurder operation earlier that 7.11 because if i had heard, i think i was just get to his home and kicked his ass really hard.. and then nothing was going to happend

Punter,

Your right.

Thanks

According to this page (http://www.kolumbus.fi/pikkulauri/mhistoria.htm), Pekka-Eric’s mother lived in America for three years in the 1980s, but she had to leave because she couldn’t get a decent work permit.

America, now we can REALLY blame you for this! If you had given Pekka’s mother better work prospects, she would’ve stayed in America and he would never have been born, and so this all could’ve easily been averted!

I suggest a new motto for The United States, instead of that old and tired “E Pluribus Unum”: “America, Fucking up the World Directly and Indirectly Since 1776!”

As for the similarities of Pekka-Eric’s and Phil’s ideologies – come on! His manifesto was essentially an anti-welfare state diatribe. Ayn Rand would have been so proud. Strange indeed that Atlas Shrugged wasn’t among his favourites. I am sure that he purposefully chose the school headmaster and the school nurse as his victims as they represented the two most important aspects of the welfare state. What a shame that Pundy no longer graces us with his presence. I bet he would be toasting Pekka-Eric right now.

Franklin – Auvinen was no libertarian, not even close.

#200: Phil, please explain why/why not.

“Auvinen was no libertarian, not even close.”

Damn right he wasn’t. He was a mentally ill person looking to glorify his base feelings of hatred and loathing with a kind of deranged ‘ideology’. As has been pointed out above, he tried communism, nazism, anything that puts no value on the individual. So what he represents is in fact the antithesis of libertarianism.

Punter, you’re not the typical “guns don’t kill people…” conservative after all? I’m impressed, very sensitive post #185. Did you change your mind or were you always the same?

@Pave: Well if most here were not trying to wind him up all the time and instead actually read his comments, you might notice he does make sense on occasion. Make that rare occasion.

He was just a very sick kid, living in his narsistic fantasy world. He borrowed stuff from extreme left and right, whatever suited for him.

quite sad!
finland, like many places in europe, have become so americanized!
however, i just think in addition, that we are just human, and being stuck in a place were one may not be able to vent and be heard and understood is likely to always be a contributing factor!
kiitos

#200: Phil, please explain why/why not.

He was all anti-society, not really anti-government (he was anti-totalitarian govt, but aren’t we all). Anti-society is not a libertarian thing.

#203- Pave, I have always held the thought that guns and society don’t belong together. I was raised in a like minded family and due to various personal reasons this feeling only became stronger during my late teens and early 20s. While I understand some rural people requiring a rifle and the right for people to sports shoot I still see these as a tiny minority that can be made to fit into strict (restrictive) gun laws.
You’ll find I have never posted a pro gun opinion along the lines of a “typical” conservative In fact I remember having the discussion in April following the VT shooting that due to the high number of guns in Finnish society and various other social problems I wouldn’t be surprised to see a similar act of needless violence hear. Never did I expect it to come so soon and in such a bloody way.
As a side note, although my economic views may be labelled conservative or right wing etc I think you’ll find many of my other political views don’t fit into the same label. It is just a pity that once you speak up against State involvement in day to day life it means you are labelled a right wing freak gun loving conservative.

every time i hear the word philosophy, i think of you

cars kill more then gun…ban cars. cars and people dont mix…more car death then gun death. ban cars…lno ban people procreating…yeh, thats it ban people. ban gun ? silly cartoon you. 209, you need to ban people. cars, beer, beef, cigars..ban it all. silly headusuptheassus.

GUns are GREAT. I LOVE GUNS. I love them a lot. I own 11 of them. I LOVE GUNS.
I hate stupid criminals that use guns to murder. I hate drunk people that kill people with cars, I hate beef, beef kills humans, giving us heart problems. waaa, all this crying makes me sick.

2 world wars started in Europe. U.S invaded ? iraq. Hmm, thats a European thing to do. Next warld war will start again in Europe. Is that an american thing ?

American things = airplanes ? cars ? hmm, top of the line movies ? Liberating Europe (many times), hmm. wealth ? hmm. I love those american things

oh born there, you’re so stupid.

I might even call you winturd, because you are.

Dave, I think it might actually be his offspring??? Now that is scary.

It’s him. The only thing missing is his “gee.”

I agree with Phil, Auvinen was certainly not a libertarian. I’d call him an eco-facist with delusions of grandeur.

His mother is a supporter of Pentti Linkola, that guy who demands the abandonment of higher technology and a drastic reduction of global population, basically a return to the middle ages. It is clear from the “manifesto” that Pekka-Eric got heavily caught up in all that shit, it was probably a big contributing factor for this attack.

born there: Careful there with those 11 guns in bed. Is one of them named “Caroline”? How about “Lisa”? In the case the Soviets will invade, you certainly are ready for that. Friggin gun idiot..

Drakon, nothing is “clear,” here. If he was so anti-technology, then why would he spend time videotaping and distributing his insanity on the internets?

Clear??

Dave, now we are arguing semantics. I think it is reasonable to say that it is “clear he was heavily caught up in that shit” in the ideological phase he seemed to be going through. Just compare his rants to Linkola’s ideas about humans being the “cancer of nature” and the need for depopulation, even by genocide.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentti_Linkola

I would not say he followed Linkola word-to-word, now, but the ideological similarities are there, among a hodgepodge of other influences.

“Clear??”

Well his “ideology” wasn’t of the most coherent kind. I mean killing teenagers to start a revolution? Jeez, what a genius.

Drakon, we have terms for this type of thing, it’s called MENTAL ILLNESS. We will never know exactly what he suffered from but when you go around talking about being a “higher being” then you are / were FUCKED IN THE HEAD, end of story.

I have no intention of discussing your so-called “semantics” about his “philosophies.”

Dave, I believe I wrote in #68: “this tragedy was mainly caused by the guy being mentally ill.” In the post you are referring to I tried to consider the things influencing his thinking as possible contributing factors to his behaviour. I do not believe reading this or that or seeing this or that film would have made him kill anybody without his mental instability.

The thing about Linkola’s tinking is that it is something he quite possible learnedd at home, like I wrote above, and so it much have had more meaning in his life than some random internet texts etc.

“Franklin – Auvinen was no libertarian, not even close.”

Not quite, I agree. However, social darwinism is a very libertarian idea.

I haven’t even bothered to read all of the comments left on here, as much of it is bickering back and forth.

Having said that, my prayers go out to the Finnish people during this time of grieving. I don’t believe that this is the right time to go about ranting back and forth about what went wrong and just how evil Auvinen’s deeds were. Left-wing radio host Randi Rhodes was even more disrespectful when the Virginia Tech massacre took place. Thus, may the Finns be comforted as we reach out to them and encourage them to take 1 Peter 5:7 to heart.

I have even sent an email to the Christian Democrats about my condolences, and Merja Erapolku was kind enough to respond to my email.

I am close friends with several Columbine families of the dead and injured. We have been reseqarching Columbine and have discovered that Eric and Dylan were avenging a bad arrest. The spin about them taking revenge on jocks is a lie spun by the authorities to cover-up their own bullying behavior. We know this because Dylan wrote to Eric in the 98 year book “We’ll be killing cops, blowing up things, My wrath for January’s incident will be godlike, not to mention our revenge in the commons” The January incident was their arrest on Jan.30,1998 the commons is the lunchroom at Columbine. Google CRTF click main forum. We need help to report this information. The Media here won’t and the Government is corrupt.

Just recently the Columbine memorial was dedicated. Brian Rohrhbough who lost his son Danny put in stone (the reason you died danny) A county who lied and covered up what they knew and what they did. A recent national geographic program ‘Columbine the final report’ agrees with our findings. Revenge over an arrest was the motive. Also on page 10589 there is a drawing that Eric Harris drew the night of his arrest that couls be interpreted as a sexual assault by a police officer. You will find it on the CRTF website. You can call at 303-697-1282 Ron

google ‘revolutionz final report’ to view”Bowling for Columbine” and The National Geographic special “Columbine The Final Report”.

“Not quite, I agree. However, social darwinism is a very libertarian idea.”
No, actually, Herbert Spencer (Pretty much THE man when it comes to social darwinism) thought that eventually we’d all evolve, essentially, into communists. Leaving the market alone for a while until you’re “ready” for communism with the higher race of man attained from capitalism isn’t libertarian- it’s in fact exactly the same thing Marx advocated .