Eleven libels against Susan Ruusunen*
@ 11:00 am By HankW.
(*) =yeah, she changed her name.
While the publisher and the author of the “Prime Minister’s Bride” are facing charges on invasion of privacy by the Prime Minister Matti Vanhanen himself - the very efficient, underworked and overbudgeted Espoo Police has dug up 11 of the 21 posters from various websites who are now facing charges for “defamation of character” stating on various web boards their rude opinions of the book and especially its author. Reportedly none of the people have affiliations to the Centre Party, even though they are middle-aged and live in various parts of the country. Some have stated that they stand by their words while some have denied writing such messages. The district attorney is still deciding on pressing the charges. So, we have not only one but two (or twelve) court cases to keep us entertained during this winter season. (twelve if all the eleven are handled separately.)
Teaches you to stay anonymous on the internet, and to choose a lazy ISP. As according to the article now in the HS International edition (<= for the stupids, that is a link)
In 18 cases the writer remained unknown for one reason or another. There were many reasons, because there are many service providers, and many kinds of keepers of registries. (<= for the stupids, that is a quote.)
And maybe also, if you are someone anonymous not to go into publicity if you can’t face the music. For example the pin-up “Matti is a boring lover” lingerie centerfold act - it sparked a child welfare investigation. ( And an offer from Hustler). Hrm…
I am just wondering how much taxpayers’ resources are yearly wasted in this kind of court charades? What is the gain? Do you need to publicly sue someone to get a legal proof you have a character?
So wait, what exactly did these 21 people say? The state of Freedom of Speech in Finland is seriously alarming. Going after posters on web forums?! I’d expect this in China, not Finland.
Comment by Phil — Mon, Oct 29th, 2007 @ 11:36 am
Web forums are not supposed to be above the law. You have a childish view about the freedom of speech where every regulation connected to the internet is censorship.
Comment by m — Mon, Oct 29th, 2007 @ 11:49 am
This has nothing to do with the internet, people should have a right to freely express themselves anywhere, including web forums.
Comment by Phil — Mon, Oct 29th, 2007 @ 11:54 am
I don’t always agree with the stuff posted on this blog, but digging up nasty posters on web forums is going a bit far. Also I wouldn’t say that the medium doesn’t matter. If you tell lies about someone on national TV it’s different from writing it on a toilet wall, with web forums being somewhere in between.
Comment by Bemmu — Mon, Oct 29th, 2007 @ 12:11 pm
Wow, If there was not the possible threat of being sued, then one might call her a gold-digging media whore.
Not that I am calling anyone anything;)
Comment by Fred Fry — Mon, Oct 29th, 2007 @ 2:37 pm
My impression of Finland has always been, that it is an open society like most western countries. But I see it differently now, and not just because of this issue. There are other problems in Finland too.
To look from an historian’s point of view, I can only surmise that Finland has been affected, over the years, by the totalitarian regime of its eastern neighbor.
I realize there’s a world of difference between Finland and Russia/USSR, but I also think there are similarities. These similarities come to the surface with cases like this.
Ideology above everything, apparently. Very sad.
Comment by Anonymous — Mon, Oct 29th, 2007 @ 2:55 pm
Not that I am calling anyone anything;)
Of course. You don’t want to get sued or something for having an opinion.
Comment by gopha — Mon, Oct 29th, 2007 @ 2:56 pm
To look from an historian’s point of view, I can only surmise that Finland has been affected, over the years, by the totalitarian regime of its eastern neighbor.
Yeah I think so as well. All Finns alive today were brought up with Finlandization, they’ve become accustomed to it, it’s in their blood. So these kind of attacks on our basic rights seems completely normal to them.
Comment by Phil — Mon, Oct 29th, 2007 @ 3:24 pm
It’s ridiculous to suggest just because you say something on just the internet, you couldn’t be sued for slander or libel in the same way as if you had said it in a newspaper or on the radio. Just typing in “sues internet forum” in Google shows this is not a uniquely Finnish phenomenon by any means. Painting this in the context of it having anything to do with Finlandisering is going a bit over the top I think!
Of course, the freedom of speech right must be protected. But there has to be some kind of sensible and reasonable limit when it comes to defaming someone’s character, especially if what you are saying is false. That said, I suspect that most of these people feeling offended in this case are probably not victims of any crossing of that line. But, it is also a right for everyone to have equal access to the courts. So, they will decide.
Comment by JG — Mon, Oct 29th, 2007 @ 3:47 pm
Susan Ruusunen is just doing whatever she can to stay in the headlines. Going after random internet trolls is her current tool to do this. Next I predict she’ll date Matti Nykanen, then on to reality TV, then porn, then alcoholism.
Comment by Phil — Mon, Oct 29th, 2007 @ 3:52 pm
The difference between this case and others found in Google, is that the others result from actual liable. For example, to write “Mr. _________ is a child molester” or “Mr. _________ is a financial advisor who cheats people.” These are legitimate reasons.
However, this case in Finland is about “posting rude opinions” about a public person connected with politics.
I agree with Phil, that Finland still experiences effects of Finlandization and most Finns are “accustomed to it.” As a Finn, I didn’t notice it until I moved away from Finland. Now I see the it very clearly.
I don’t think most Finns know the difference of what is proper legal behavior and what is not. Finland has a brainwashed society, I’m sorry to say. It will take time to change.
Comment by a Finn — Mon, Oct 29th, 2007 @ 4:11 pm
“Next I predict she’ll date Matti Nykanen, then on to reality TV, then porn, then alcoholism.”
Might as well throw in a kid as well with a mystery father.
If your all lucky, she will ‘earn’ enough money to move out of the country.
Comment by Fred Fry — Mon, Oct 29th, 2007 @ 4:13 pm
And soon the Finnish government will be allowing “freedom of speech” with our personal data in the form of our tax records. (name, income, tax percentage, capital income, municipality) They will do this without giving any right to object like AKE and Väestönrekisterikeskus do. In November, the tax records become public again and the circus starts.
Perhaps someone needs to define what is “freedom of speech” for the government of Finland, who doesn’t seem to get the point.
Ja pian Suomen Valtio antaa “sananvapaus” meidän henkilötiedomme kanssa, siis verotiedomme kanssa. (nimi, tulot, veroprosentti, pääomatulot, kunta) Je he tekevät tämän ilman mitään kieltämisoikeuksia toisin kun AKE ja Väestönrekisterikeskus tekee. Marraskuussa verotiedot tulee jälleen julkisiksi ja sirkus alkaa, jos muistan oikein.
Ehkä jonkun pitäisi kertoa mitä tarkoittaa sananvapaus Suomen valtiolle, koska he eivät visin taju sitä. Kekkonen on kuollut.
Comment by Anonymous — Mon, Oct 29th, 2007 @ 4:18 pm
I don’t know how the current laws are phrased but those laws concerning civic freedoms always had this “according to the law and good manners” -part. It’s not because of the totalitarians next door, but the Arkadianmäki denizens jesusing around and trying to maintain the Topelian sauna-clean protestant appearance in everything, including public discussion.
Comment by Antti rn — Mon, Oct 29th, 2007 @ 4:36 pm
However, this case in Finland is about “posting rude opinions†about a public person connected with politics.
Exactly. Plus, we’re not talking about some random person here, this woman has been in the media (on her own accord) for many months now. People are bound to have strong opinions and should have the freedom to voice them. What’s the worse these people have said? She’s a whore? She’s a bitch? That’s certainly not libel.
Comment by Phil — Mon, Oct 29th, 2007 @ 4:40 pm
Aha, I agree that if that’s all that has been said, it’s not libel. I’m sure the courts will not see it that way either. But, I suppose she has a right to go to court (isn’t that even in the constitution somewhere). But yes, I think in her case, Phil is probably right. She is just trying to keep in the media spotlight… it can’t be bad for book sales. But it that case it can’t be finlandisation. In fact it’s clearly a good sales drive. Nice and capitalist. But to be honest, the mere mention of her name makes me yawn.
Here’s how President Sarkozy deals with matters relating to the woman in his life: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/europe/7067167.stm
Comment by JG — Mon, Oct 29th, 2007 @ 5:25 pm
Phil wrote: “Yeah I think so as well. All Finns alive today were brought up with Finlandization, they’ve become accustomed to it, it’s in their blood. So these kind of attacks on our basic rights seems completely normal to them.”
Frankly, I find that an offensive generalization (and here I was thinking you’re not into those). It’s equally true that ALL Americans are ignorant, narrow-minded, and apathetic. And I don’t see many Americans on the barricades to protest against all the recent attacks on civic rights in the US by the Bush administration.
That said, I completely agree that this is just a media stunt by a gold-digging media whore, as someone aptly put it. Not to mention an irresponsible waste of police resources. The difference between internet and television and radio is that almost everyone has access to the net, without censorship. You might as well start hitting people with slander charges for mouthing off in a nakkikioski line at 4 AM on a Sunday morning. Ridiculous.
Comment by aet75 — Mon, Oct 29th, 2007 @ 7:38 pm
Naw, you all got it wrong.
Its the McDonalds case all over again.
She is just the trustry Lawyers, out for money.
The bloggers are the girl, behind the wheel, knowing the coffee is way to hot to put down between the legs. They knew when they posted, they have no freedon of speech, yet they posted anyway.
Thus they, the bloggers, and the girl, get burned.
Thus the lawyers, and the PM get all the rewards. No one can fault them for just following the law, and going after the evil bloggers/Mcdonalds.
Darn, I am missing being the evil American. Can your PM please stop acting like an American? So I can take the evil sign back.
Comment by winter, "Yea, Proton Power, now in remission" — Mon, Oct 29th, 2007 @ 8:37 pm
aet75:
“It’s equally true that ALL Americans are ignorant, narrow-minded, and apathetic. And I don’t see many Americans on the barricades to protest against all the recent attacks on civic rights in the US by the Bush administration.”
You’re absolutely wrong aet75. By now, most Americans know that their government has caused lots of harm, and they DO protest about it. Just surf any political blogs and forums, or see the anti-war protests in various cities around the country. Only the most hardcore idiots still support the war agenda and its associated loss of civil liberties. Over half stopped supporting it after the first year.
Now compare it to Finland, where lack of civil liberties is an accepted way of life. Just look at Anon’s post above, about tax records. It’s a perfect example of how brainwashed the Finnish population is. That’s REAL brainwashing - not the temporary kind that Americans seem to have suffered.
Comment by Ron, temporarily in Finland — Mon, Oct 29th, 2007 @ 9:01 pm
Come now Ron, hardly are we all “brainwashed” as you put it. None of our schools are attempting to present the biblical religious story of the creation in science lessons for example. I would imagine making laws that forbid the teaching of evolution, which I believe is the case in a few places in USA, would far more qualify as brain-washing.
Just because one believes tax records should be open, does not make one brainwashed. It’s called a difference of opinion. It’s rather a low level of debate to simply dismiss an opposing view as being a product of “brainwashing”.
Comment by JG — Mon, Oct 29th, 2007 @ 9:06 pm
JG, the brain washing, particularly the one concerning the State Lutheran Church starts even before school in Finalnd. You’re born a Lutheran and at least in “small towns” you’ll be taught their values. (Unless your father is an Australian that has no religious bone in his body and objects otherwise)
Comment by Punter — Mon, Oct 29th, 2007 @ 9:49 pm
@9: Talk in the Internet is of a totally different quality than talk in newspapers or TV news. The news and information that gets into those places is extremely filtered and edited. What we have in the Internet is people saying whatever comes to mind, and often it is based on feelings. Trying to censor what people say in the Internet is like trying to censor what people say at the coffee table at work. In the case of “Prinsessa Ruusunen”, people are disgusted with the news, so they express their disgust by saying things. The same legislation regarding slander or defamation of character cannot be applied here. If HS.fi publishes slanderous or defaming material online, then that is a different story. But if someone says something or other on http://www.totallycrap.com or wherever, who cares?
As far as tracking ISPs and such, if you put your forums in another country. It will be hard to track down IP addresses from an ISP in another country.
Comment by sirkuspelle — Mon, Oct 29th, 2007 @ 10:18 pm
“Kekkonen on kuollut.” - If only. That dude will be alive for years to come.
“I would imagine making laws that forbid the teaching of evolution, which I believe is the case in a few places in USA, would far more qualify as brain-washing.”
Well, no, but there are plenty of us around who think religion in general is a form of brainwashing. Nothing like making a herd of people fear an invisible, unverifiable and unknown, sometimes benevolent, but more often angry ‘creator’ to keep things going your way. I mean, if you say you’ve ’seen god’, people think you’re nuts. As George Carlin would say, that’s some really good shit they’re smoking.
Religion is one of those cult things that I’ll never understand.
There are no laws, per se, that prohibit the teaching of evolution since it was ruled upon in the 60s by the Supreme Court that such laws would be in violation of the Constitution, but there are individual schools who have attempted to do so and have been successfully challenged on the matter. I think the current tactic in vogue is to demand ‘creationism’ get equal time.
And if this story tells you nothing it is that if Finland had some actual newsworthy events going on, anything at all, this would get about as much attention as a fart in a windstorm. Maybe Russia should invade or something.
Comment by hfb — Mon, Oct 29th, 2007 @ 10:42 pm
“Only the most hardcore idiots still support the war agenda and its associated loss of civil liberties.”
Do list the lost of civil liberties. Any that you might find are actually being pressed by liberals who shout down and intimidate any derivation from their groupthink.
Guess I am a hardcore idiot.
Comment by Fred Fry — Mon, Oct 29th, 2007 @ 10:54 pm
Hi Sirkuspelle, whilst I agree talk on the internet is of a different nature to the tv or radio, that can’t be used as a reason to make it acceptable to write something unacceptably false and defamatory. That said, I agree it does take more weight if it’s said on HS.fi than totallycrap.com! But, that said, the problem with the internet that is not encountered with the gossip at the work coffee table is that that rumour is not recorded or written down for later potential mass access.
I suppose what this discussion highlights is that perhaps the legal system has not caught up with the reality of the internet yet. It’s a very difficult issue as it does not easily fit into some kind of neat boundary.
(Incidentally, I am not suggesting what Ruusunen has said is, I simply don’t know - and I suspect probably not. This is just meant as a wider comment on the internet and freedom of speech.)
Comment by JG — Mon, Oct 29th, 2007 @ 11:10 pm
Frankly, I find that an offensive generalization (and here I was thinking you’re not into those). It’s equally true that ALL Americans are ignorant, narrow-minded, and apathetic.
Well, take murder for instance. Americans have become immune to it because it happens so often in the states. Just like Finns think it’s normal to see free speech silenced, Americans think it’s normal to see so much cold-blooded killing. If a Finn would move to Baltimore, they’d be shocked.
I don’t mean to be offensive.
Comment by Phil — Mon, Oct 29th, 2007 @ 11:13 pm
#24 While I wouldn’t say that “only the most hardcore idiots” support the war, it is very unpopular these days, even here in Texas. Even Fox News admits that. As for civil liberties, are you familiar with the Patriot Act?
Back to the original topic, no one here has been able to say what these posters said, so it’s hard for me to say if it’s libel or not. I’m not an expert on Finnish law, but it seems silly that merely expressing a negative opinion could be libel, however.
I don’t know about Finland, but anyone in the US can sue, it doesn’t mean that they’ll win. I’d only be worried if the courts rule in Ruusunen’s favor.
Comment by dhen — Mon, Oct 29th, 2007 @ 11:13 pm
Gee Ron, please name just one liberty I lost?
Confused as usual, here in the USA.
Can’t you give me just one?
Comment by winter “Yea, Proton Power, now in remission†— Tue, Oct 30th, 2007 @ 3:11 am
Back to the original topic, no one here has been able to say what these posters said, so it’s hard for me to say if it’s libel or not. I’m not an expert on Finnish law, but it seems silly that merely expressing a negative opinion could be libel, however.
Well, the Iltalehti had repros of the posts on print; but they had blacked out the offending bits. The article stated something about the posts implying her mental state and horizontal professionality… on a brief note http://keskustelu.suomi24.fi/ if you search; theres a number of threads that have all kinds of Finnish endearing terms.
Comment by Anonymous — Tue, Oct 30th, 2007 @ 3:24 am
“not the temporary kind that Americans seem to have suffered.”
Oh i get it now, he hates Fox, and the open Internet, with a second side to every story.
Gee, Ron you could have just said it first.
Comment by winter “Yea, Proton Power, now in remission†— Tue, Oct 30th, 2007 @ 3:24 am
Wait, wait, I found a liberty I just lost….
Pizza delivery is gone from my area in Southern Maryland.
Ron… Did I get it?????
Comment by winter “Yea, Proton Power, now in remission†— Tue, Oct 30th, 2007 @ 3:38 am
Which rights has Bush violated?
Just off the top of my head there’s the Bill of rights.
Article I - separation of church and state
Bush loves to mix church and state. Faith-based initiatives?
Article IV - illegal search and seizure
Warrantless wiretapping, secret searches, secret monitoring of email…
Amendment V - due process of law, Amendment VI - a speedy and fair trial, Amendment VII - trial by jury
Jose Padilla, a US citizen, was held for four years before he was even charged. Guantanamo has been there for years and still has people who have been held without trial.
That said I still love living in the US. I don’t hate Republicans, I’m even friends with a few of them. I do have a profound hatred of George Bush Jr., whom I believe to be the most incompetent president ever. He makes Nixon look like a visionary.
Comment by dhen — Tue, Oct 30th, 2007 @ 4:30 am
dhen - Naw, he makes Nixon look like the amateur he was.
If somebody can find out who winter is and call the local homeland security unit to report ’suspicious’ activity he might find out real quick just which liberties he has personally lost.
Comment by hfb — Tue, Oct 30th, 2007 @ 4:52 am
Ah I see, things that work, like “Faith-based initiatives?” are a loss of rights? Gee, those Christian thugs again.
or
“Warrantless wiretapping, secret searches, secret monitoring of email…”
can you say which e-mail I sent, was actualy read? Gee maby they have other things to do than read my e-mail. Its kinda booring.
then their is Club Gitmo, for retired terrorists. Gee even Auswitch was probably tame compared to club Gitmo. Geee I am terrified again.
Gee, I must have missed the loss here. Was it the e-mail on my love life that they read?
Gee my reality meter is pegged. Didn’t see one loss of any liberty, or was the pizza delivery not on your list?
Comment by winter “Yea, Proton Power, now in remission†— Tue, Oct 30th, 2007 @ 5:05 am
Gee dhen, which one is my lost liberty?
You mean its not the pizza?
Comment by winter “Yea, Proton Power, now in remission†— Tue, Oct 30th, 2007 @ 5:09 am
Ah like “Faith-based initiatives?” is a loss of rights? Gee, those Christian thugs again.
or
“Warrantless wiretapping, secret searches, secret monitoring of email…”
can you say which e-mail I sent, was actualy read? They have other things to do than read my e-mail. Its booring.
then their is Club Gitmo, for retired terrorists. Gee even Auswitch was probably tame compared to club Gitmo. Geee I am terrified again.
Gee, I missed the loss here. Was it the e-mail on my love life that they read?
My reality meter is pegged. Not one loss of any liberty
Comment by winter “Yea, Proton Power, now in remission†— Tue, Oct 30th, 2007 @ 5:17 am
#33
Now there’s a thought. Then maybe winter could give us a first hand account on whether or not “water boarding” constitutes torture…
Ah yes, I knew I forgot something, Article VIII - cruel and unusual punishment.
Hey Phil, $20 if you report winter’s IP address to the CIA for “suspicious activity.” Others may offer more if we get a collection going.
Comment by dhen — Tue, Oct 30th, 2007 @ 5:30 am
“As for civil liberties, are you familiar with the Patriot Act?”
- Hmm, I had to read it for work. Have you? Go on.
Look, the Government can pass rules for the common good. Take entering the country. You can be searched along with all your goods and the contents of your laptop. No warrant required. Where is the outrage? Yet for some reason there is the idea that a phone call crossing the border falls outside this same search. I assumed that the Government was listening whenever I called home, at least logging my number and who I called. The joke in all of this is you never hear any concern about the possibility of the Government on the other end listening in. Anyway, they don’t have enough time to listen to all the people they are already concerned about, what makes you think that they have any time for any of us? (One or two of us probably should be watched.)
Oh, and I have been inconvenienced for about a year as my name kept getting tagged by the no-fly list. That was more of a problem for the person standing behind me as it took about 30 minutes to get my boarding pass.
Comment by Fred Fry — Tue, Oct 30th, 2007 @ 5:42 am
Hey Phil, $20 if you report winter’s IP address to the CIA for “suspicious activity.†Others may offer more if we get a collection going.
The authorities can have my blogs IP addresses, “from my cold, dead hands!!!!!!!”
Comment by Phil — Tue, Oct 30th, 2007 @ 7:03 am
ake entering the country. You can be searched along with all your goods and the contents of your laptop. No warrant required. Where is the outrage? Yet for some reason there is the idea that a phone call crossing the border falls outside this same search.
I guess the difference is, in one instance you’re aware of the search, while in the other instance (phone lines), you are unaware.
Comment by Phil — Tue, Oct 30th, 2007 @ 7:05 am
“I guess the difference is, in one instance you’re aware of the search, while in the other instance (phone lines), you are unaware.”
- You mean like J. Karjalainen!
You do bring up a good point. The wiretap issue has been completely distorted by the press and dishonest politicians. All of the phone calls have an international connection and many of them have both callers outside the US.
The question is, is a warrant required to listen into phone conversations that are taking place outside the US? Outside the US, the CIA and NSA have authority. it is convenient for them that many calls are routed through the US, even though the callers might be in Pakistan and Canada, the UK, or Australia. (One recent series of arrests in Germany was the result of listening in on this type of call routing.) this is how many drug busts are made. Drug producers in South America are not aware that often their cargo with drugs for Europe is first ‘transshipped’ through the US. Once here, it is fair game for seizure even though it was never destined for Us streets.
Comment by Fred Fry — Tue, Oct 30th, 2007 @ 2:49 pm
Gee, not one lost freedom. Come on guys, my lost pizza example is winning here.
Comment by winter, "Yea, Proton Power, now in remission" — Wed, Oct 31st, 2007 @ 9:43 pm
winter - “Gee even Auswitch was probably tame compared to club Gitmo.”
Would that be a good witch or a bad witch?
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, Oct 31st, 2007 @ 10:35 pm