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	<title>Comments on: Rolling blackouts may come to Finland this winter</title>
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	<link>http://www.finlandforthought.net/2007/10/28/rolling-blackouts-may-come-to-finland-this-winter/</link>
	<description>Politics, current events, culture - From Finland &#38; United States</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 11:35:47 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Powerrrr</title>
		<link>http://www.finlandforthought.net/2007/10/28/rolling-blackouts-may-come-to-finland-this-winter/#comment-351570</link>
		<dc:creator>Powerrrr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Nov 2007 21:47:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.finlandforthought.net/2007/10/28/rolling-blackouts-may-come-to-finland-this-winter/#comment-351570</guid>
		<description>In the Northern Lapland there's no worries, because they get electricity from 3 countries directly: Finland, Norway and Russia. They just take what they need from the power lines and then we'll see if there's enough left for Southern Finland!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the Northern Lapland there&#8217;s no worries, because they get electricity from 3 countries directly: Finland, Norway and Russia. They just take what they need from the power lines and then we&#8217;ll see if there&#8217;s enough left for Southern Finland!</p>
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		<title>By: winter, "Yea, Proton Power, now in remission"</title>
		<link>http://www.finlandforthought.net/2007/10/28/rolling-blackouts-may-come-to-finland-this-winter/#comment-350794</link>
		<dc:creator>winter, "Yea, Proton Power, now in remission"</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Oct 2007 19:36:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.finlandforthought.net/2007/10/28/rolling-blackouts-may-come-to-finland-this-winter/#comment-350794</guid>
		<description>Gee, just cash in on your Human Shield for oil credits with Iran.

Problem solved.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gee, just cash in on your Human Shield for oil credits with Iran.</p>
<p>Problem solved.</p>
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		<title>By: Mara</title>
		<link>http://www.finlandforthought.net/2007/10/28/rolling-blackouts-may-come-to-finland-this-winter/#comment-350704</link>
		<dc:creator>Mara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Oct 2007 21:09:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.finlandforthought.net/2007/10/28/rolling-blackouts-may-come-to-finland-this-winter/#comment-350704</guid>
		<description>The Finnish utilities wielding monopoly power through their infrastructure usually start their price hiking rounds by announcing a looming shortage.  Helsinki enforced a water Ã¢â‚¬Å“pricing renewalÃ¢â‚¬Â a couple of years ago by importing a foreign Ã¢â‚¬Å“water war guruÃ¢â‚¬Â to give talks about the next world wars, which are going to be over clean water.  Helsingin Sanomat made a big article about the guru, who after long explanation of the mechanisms of looming water shortage, at the very end of the article, mentioned offhand that Ã¢â‚¬Å“of course you in Finland will never experience such water shortagesÃ¢â‚¬Â.  Most readers probably got the Ã¢â‚¬Å“worldwide water shortageÃ¢â‚¬Â -part.  

After a while Helsinki announced that it adjusts water pricing by hiking the fixed part of a two-part tariff and lowering the variable part in such a way that, at current consumption, the total bill is about the same. They did not mention that such a structural change in prices is bound to increase the quantity consumed. Which within a few years would give them a larger income stream. Which the local city government will use.  Local politicians prefer to tax people through utility bills rather than hiking the local tax, because many in the electorate do not realize that utility pricing is hidden taxation, not just covering the costs of the utilities.  

The politicians need this Ã¢â‚¬Å“scare and guilt roundÃ¢â‚¬Â because it confuses a large enough part of the populace to feel somewhat guilty for using the  resource. Guilty feeling is a great paralyzer of defences, a deflector of analytic thought (or any thought) on the subject,  and a boost to willingness to pay.  The minority that works the problem through will have no chance to raise a rebellion.  One of those Ã¢â‚¬Å“Eat your veggies, people starve in AfricaÃ¢â‚¬Â - logical reasonings at work.     

Since Fingrid (which owns the network) is owned by the power supplier companies (even EU has given a wag of finger on that), my bet is that after some public scare-talk on looming shortage of electricity, we will experience some increases in the market price of electricity and no shortages.  

Lilius said to Leena Harkimo (kok) in  a TalouselÃƒÂ¤mÃƒÂ¤ article a few years back that the electricity price of Finland Ã¢â‚¬Å“has to increase substantially to make the nuclear investment profitableÃ¢â‚¬Â!  And since the state owns a share of Fortum, Leena Harkimo had nothing bad to say about that.  Fortum revenues give the state politicians spending monies, which even the right wing politicians cannot resist. 

Finland is funny in this peculiar way: We want to think of ourselves as a western country and culture, but the way we identify with the collective and not with the individual I find very eastern.  Even the market-minded Finns will tend to prefer wealthy national monopoly organizations to a population of wealthy individuals.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Finnish utilities wielding monopoly power through their infrastructure usually start their price hiking rounds by announcing a looming shortage.  Helsinki enforced a water Ã¢â‚¬Å“pricing renewalÃ¢â‚¬Â a couple of years ago by importing a foreign Ã¢â‚¬Å“water war guruÃ¢â‚¬Â to give talks about the next world wars, which are going to be over clean water.  Helsingin Sanomat made a big article about the guru, who after long explanation of the mechanisms of looming water shortage, at the very end of the article, mentioned offhand that Ã¢â‚¬Å“of course you in Finland will never experience such water shortagesÃ¢â‚¬Â.  Most readers probably got the Ã¢â‚¬Å“worldwide water shortageÃ¢â‚¬Â -part.  </p>
<p>After a while Helsinki announced that it adjusts water pricing by hiking the fixed part of a two-part tariff and lowering the variable part in such a way that, at current consumption, the total bill is about the same. They did not mention that such a structural change in prices is bound to increase the quantity consumed. Which within a few years would give them a larger income stream. Which the local city government will use.  Local politicians prefer to tax people through utility bills rather than hiking the local tax, because many in the electorate do not realize that utility pricing is hidden taxation, not just covering the costs of the utilities.  </p>
<p>The politicians need this Ã¢â‚¬Å“scare and guilt roundÃ¢â‚¬Â because it confuses a large enough part of the populace to feel somewhat guilty for using the  resource. Guilty feeling is a great paralyzer of defences, a deflector of analytic thought (or any thought) on the subject,  and a boost to willingness to pay.  The minority that works the problem through will have no chance to raise a rebellion.  One of those Ã¢â‚¬Å“Eat your veggies, people starve in AfricaÃ¢â‚¬Â - logical reasonings at work.     </p>
<p>Since Fingrid (which owns the network) is owned by the power supplier companies (even EU has given a wag of finger on that), my bet is that after some public scare-talk on looming shortage of electricity, we will experience some increases in the market price of electricity and no shortages.  </p>
<p>Lilius said to Leena Harkimo (kok) in  a TalouselÃƒÂ¤mÃƒÂ¤ article a few years back that the electricity price of Finland Ã¢â‚¬Å“has to increase substantially to make the nuclear investment profitableÃ¢â‚¬Â!  And since the state owns a share of Fortum, Leena Harkimo had nothing bad to say about that.  Fortum revenues give the state politicians spending monies, which even the right wing politicians cannot resist. </p>
<p>Finland is funny in this peculiar way: We want to think of ourselves as a western country and culture, but the way we identify with the collective and not with the individual I find very eastern.  Even the market-minded Finns will tend to prefer wealthy national monopoly organizations to a population of wealthy individuals.</p>
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		<title>By: T</title>
		<link>http://www.finlandforthought.net/2007/10/28/rolling-blackouts-may-come-to-finland-this-winter/#comment-350630</link>
		<dc:creator>T</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Oct 2007 09:46:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.finlandforthought.net/2007/10/28/rolling-blackouts-may-come-to-finland-this-winter/#comment-350630</guid>
		<description>Realtime electrity import/export stats, in case someone is interested: http://www.fingrid.fi/portal/in_english/electricity_market/state_of_power_system/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Realtime electrity import/export stats, in case someone is interested: <a href="http://www.fingrid.fi/portal/in_english/electricity_market/state_of_power_system/" rel="nofollow">http://www.fingrid.fi/portal/in_english/electricity_market/state_of_power_system/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.finlandforthought.net/2007/10/28/rolling-blackouts-may-come-to-finland-this-winter/#comment-350624</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Oct 2007 09:08:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.finlandforthought.net/2007/10/28/rolling-blackouts-may-come-to-finland-this-winter/#comment-350624</guid>
		<description>Isnt that the point of the new nuclear reactors Finland are building, get rid of Finland power dependence on Russia.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Isnt that the point of the new nuclear reactors Finland are building, get rid of Finland power dependence on Russia.</p>
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		<title>By: sepisp</title>
		<link>http://www.finlandforthought.net/2007/10/28/rolling-blackouts-may-come-to-finland-this-winter/#comment-350615</link>
		<dc:creator>sepisp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Oct 2007 00:21:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.finlandforthought.net/2007/10/28/rolling-blackouts-may-come-to-finland-this-winter/#comment-350615</guid>
		<description>I think there will be a perpetual shortage of electricity, until 7th or 8th nuclear power plant is built. There's no way a country in such a cold climate and with so high a dependence on extremely energy-consuming industry can get away with importing goddamn *electricity*, something you MUST NOT LOSE because of the political weenie-measurement contests. (There will by plenty of those considering the growth and increasing negating power of Russia.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think there will be a perpetual shortage of electricity, until 7th or 8th nuclear power plant is built. There&#8217;s no way a country in such a cold climate and with so high a dependence on extremely energy-consuming industry can get away with importing goddamn *electricity*, something you MUST NOT LOSE because of the political weenie-measurement contests. (There will by plenty of those considering the growth and increasing negating power of Russia.)</p>
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		<title>By: JG</title>
		<link>http://www.finlandforthought.net/2007/10/28/rolling-blackouts-may-come-to-finland-this-winter/#comment-350611</link>
		<dc:creator>JG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Oct 2007 23:17:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.finlandforthought.net/2007/10/28/rolling-blackouts-may-come-to-finland-this-winter/#comment-350611</guid>
		<description>I thought these days we have a link to the Swedish (and if not beyond) power grid, so we can get get some power that way too. Although, I know that Sweden has no surplus of power either. So, perhaps it's not that helpful.

In any case, you say we are not sorting this out ourselves, but then you must have missed the seemingly endless articles in the newspapers about were the next 2 nuclear power stations will be placed (at least Hufvudstadsbladet and my local paper are seemingly obsessed with this subject). RuotsinpyhtÃƒÂ¤ÃƒÂ¤/StrÃƒÂ¶mfors seems to be the latest "in" location being considered. I am not sure I feel comfortable with all these nuclear reactors down the road from me, but it seems the forthcoming Greater Loviisa (in view of the referendum result this evening) is truly to be Finland's nuclear capital. But the power companies seem to be tripping over themselves to build new power stations. So, I think we are on the way to sorting this out and, of course, I agree that relying on Russia is clearly not a good plan as their antics elsewhere have demonstrated.

In any case, I doubt we will get an rolling blackouts here. Probably come dangerously close to the limit, but I suspect Finn Grid is just trying to encourage the need to conserve energy to make that less likely by its strong message and also to perhaps increase the urgency in approving any of those new power station projects.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I thought these days we have a link to the Swedish (and if not beyond) power grid, so we can get get some power that way too. Although, I know that Sweden has no surplus of power either. So, perhaps it&#8217;s not that helpful.</p>
<p>In any case, you say we are not sorting this out ourselves, but then you must have missed the seemingly endless articles in the newspapers about were the next 2 nuclear power stations will be placed (at least Hufvudstadsbladet and my local paper are seemingly obsessed with this subject). RuotsinpyhtÃƒÂ¤ÃƒÂ¤/StrÃƒÂ¶mfors seems to be the latest &#8220;in&#8221; location being considered. I am not sure I feel comfortable with all these nuclear reactors down the road from me, but it seems the forthcoming Greater Loviisa (in view of the referendum result this evening) is truly to be Finland&#8217;s nuclear capital. But the power companies seem to be tripping over themselves to build new power stations. So, I think we are on the way to sorting this out and, of course, I agree that relying on Russia is clearly not a good plan as their antics elsewhere have demonstrated.</p>
<p>In any case, I doubt we will get an rolling blackouts here. Probably come dangerously close to the limit, but I suspect Finn Grid is just trying to encourage the need to conserve energy to make that less likely by its strong message and also to perhaps increase the urgency in approving any of those new power station projects.</p>
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		<title>By: Vilja</title>
		<link>http://www.finlandforthought.net/2007/10/28/rolling-blackouts-may-come-to-finland-this-winter/#comment-350604</link>
		<dc:creator>Vilja</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Oct 2007 21:32:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.finlandforthought.net/2007/10/28/rolling-blackouts-may-come-to-finland-this-winter/#comment-350604</guid>
		<description>..And isn't it funny how everyone in Finland has an alcoholic uncle? I know I have one and he's not to be trusted :-p</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>..And isn&#8217;t it funny how everyone in Finland has an alcoholic uncle? I know I have one and he&#8217;s not to be trusted :-p</p>
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		<title>By: Antti rn</title>
		<link>http://www.finlandforthought.net/2007/10/28/rolling-blackouts-may-come-to-finland-this-winter/#comment-350598</link>
		<dc:creator>Antti rn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Oct 2007 21:11:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.finlandforthought.net/2007/10/28/rolling-blackouts-may-come-to-finland-this-winter/#comment-350598</guid>
		<description>Ahhhhhh...Bring it on. I just got through the firewood chop for this winter.

I hope the "city greens" will get their wines frozen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ahhhhhh&#8230;Bring it on. I just got through the firewood chop for this winter.</p>
<p>I hope the &#8220;city greens&#8221; will get their wines frozen.</p>
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		<title>By: a Finn</title>
		<link>http://www.finlandforthought.net/2007/10/28/rolling-blackouts-may-come-to-finland-this-winter/#comment-350597</link>
		<dc:creator>a Finn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Oct 2007 21:02:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.finlandforthought.net/2007/10/28/rolling-blackouts-may-come-to-finland-this-winter/#comment-350597</guid>
		<description>Phil, I'm tired of the whole import/export excuse being used as reasoning to keep prices for import products high in Finland, "to avoid capital flowing out of the country."  Cars cost twice europe price, for instance.

At some point Finland needs to become a true market economy and rise its standard of living to european levels. Instead of always thinking of ways to use protectionism.

To pay for new power production capability needs a successful economy to pay for it. Then this issue will resolve itself.  For now, Finland is still with its head stuck in its ass.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Phil, I&#8217;m tired of the whole import/export excuse being used as reasoning to keep prices for import products high in Finland, &#8220;to avoid capital flowing out of the country.&#8221;  Cars cost twice europe price, for instance.</p>
<p>At some point Finland needs to become a true market economy and rise its standard of living to european levels. Instead of always thinking of ways to use protectionism.</p>
<p>To pay for new power production capability needs a successful economy to pay for it. Then this issue will resolve itself.  For now, Finland is still with its head stuck in its ass.</p>
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		<title>By: mh</title>
		<link>http://www.finlandforthought.net/2007/10/28/rolling-blackouts-may-come-to-finland-this-winter/#comment-350595</link>
		<dc:creator>mh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Oct 2007 20:39:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.finlandforthought.net/2007/10/28/rolling-blackouts-may-come-to-finland-this-winter/#comment-350595</guid>
		<description>Fortunately UPS units are cheap nowadays. Or has everyone switched to a laptop already?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fortunately UPS units are cheap nowadays. Or has everyone switched to a laptop already?</p>
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