Taxes! Taxes!! I’m all for raising taxes!!
A survey published by the Social Insurance Institution of Finland, shows that 80% of the Finns would be ready to pay higher taxes, if the money were to go to into healthcare services. In general, people would rather see higher taxes than a deterioration in social benefits.
Less than 10% of those interviewed for the survey say they would want to see income supports for low-income groups cut, even if this meant that they would pay less tax.
Clever question from the state-run social insurance department, KELA. They basically ask, “Would you pay higher taxes so the state can try to fix your inadequate healthcare system -OR- Would you rather save on taxes and let poor people rot.” LOL!! How about, “I’d like to see MORE of my existing tax money go towards essential services like healthcare”?
Do you want to raise taxes? I bet you do! Yes, even you liberals. Here’s how I’ll prove it - answer this question: “Would you be ready to pay higher taxes? -OR- Would you rather see infants abducted and shipped off to a Iranian whorehouse where they’ll spend the rest of their lives in homoerotic servitude??” Taxes! Taxes!! I’m all for raising taxes!! 
I am sick an tired of these surveys and polls that give supports for policy makers in Finland. Similar story goes for NATO support - a hot potatoe in Finland.
Comment by Paul — Mon, Oct 8th, 2007 @ 4:14 pm
and when raising taxes, there’s always the consolation, that it will hurt my rich neighbour more.
Comment by Pekka Eskimo — Mon, Oct 8th, 2007 @ 4:32 pm
Why is it wrong to ask people if they would be willing to pay more for better healthcare other things being equal? This post is even more ridiculous than usual.
““Would you pay higher taxes so the state can try to fix your inadequate healthcare system -OR- Would you rather save on taxes and let poor people rot.—
The first part of this is right, but the second part should read “or would you rather keep taxes as they are with no change in the healthcare system?”.
Comment by Finnsense — Mon, Oct 8th, 2007 @ 4:41 pm
Finnsense - But what makes you think that throwing money at the healthcare system will change much if anything in the healthcare system? Didn’t Finns just take a poll about pay for nurses that indicated that their pay shouldn’t be raised? The major problem the system faces currently is a shortage of staff, particularly nurses, and if better pay isn’t in the offing and you can’t find the people to fill open positions, what is the money supposed to be paying for? You’ll still be waiting in long queues in the Helsinki area for care.
Why not encourage people to save their money without raising taxes to use towards the private sector where there aren’t such waiting queues and often better treatments? The government should be thinking about creating more jobs and getting the 25% youth unemployment problem solved rather than dumping the problem of revenue drops onto the hardworking people who already pay quite much of their paychecks.
Comment by hfb — Mon, Oct 8th, 2007 @ 4:53 pm
Uh oh… I think Finnsense actually supports the abduction of babies to whorehouses!
My point is that more money can go to healthcare WITHOUT raising taxes and WITHOUT cutting income supports for poor Finns.
Comment by Phil — Mon, Oct 8th, 2007 @ 5:05 pm
If only there wasn’t a link between spending money on a national healthcare system, and having a national healthcare system, then this post might make sense.
Comment by Rich — Mon, Oct 8th, 2007 @ 5:05 pm
Somone call the cops… the state is robbing me.
Comment by Biff — Mon, Oct 8th, 2007 @ 5:36 pm
“But what makes you think that throwing money at the healthcare system will change much if anything in the healthcare system?”
That’s not the question that is asked. The question is hypothetical. Would you pay higher taxes to get better healthcare? On the practical level I’m sure more moeny spent on training, staff (from abroad if needs be), technology and equipment could improve the system. It could be wasted but it needn’t be.
Phil,
I believe there is a direct relationship between the quality of a service and the resources invested in it. Obviously, if things can be done more efficiently they should be but we don’t need a poll to tell us whether we should try to do that. We do need a poll to see whether people are willing to pay more for healthcare. The evidence from countries with better healthcare than ours is that it is expensive. Americans pay 13% of GDP on health and the French 10%. We spend 7%.
Comment by Finnsense — Mon, Oct 8th, 2007 @ 5:37 pm
oh yeah, well i’m a fag
Comment by faggot — Mon, Oct 8th, 2007 @ 6:13 pm
In Finland there is a relationship between payment and receiving in tax form. Heck, health-care there is 10 times better than the U.S.A. They also have better school systems and roadway improvement systems than the U.S.A.
suomeksi amerikassa
Comment by lingli — Mon, Oct 8th, 2007 @ 6:15 pm
man i m sick of these taxes..!!!
Comment by Em — Mon, Oct 8th, 2007 @ 7:04 pm
Italian secretary of Economy just said - Paying taxes is a wonderful thing-.
Comment by strudel — Mon, Oct 8th, 2007 @ 7:13 pm
Worlds smallest political quiz.
Comment by Anonymous — Mon, Oct 8th, 2007 @ 7:16 pm
Finnish healthcare system is the worst in Europe. It might be better than the US system, but why do you always compare it to the US? The US is not the only country in the world. Finland can learn more from other neighbor countries, if they want to learn. Well, I doubt about the latter possibility though.
Comment by european — Mon, Oct 8th, 2007 @ 7:33 pm
If only there wasn’t a link between spending money on a national healthcare system, and having a national healthcare system, then this post might make sense.
Huh?
Comment by Phil — Mon, Oct 8th, 2007 @ 8:13 pm
We do need a poll to see whether people are willing to pay more for healthcare.
Sure, but the question they ask is very misleading. I think a better question would be, “Should the state provide you with better healthcare?” How the state should improve its healthcare is an entirely different question.
Comment by Phil — Mon, Oct 8th, 2007 @ 8:18 pm
Worlds smallest political quiz.
No way, here’s the smallest political quiz: “Yes or no?” That’s it, just yes or no, then a question mark. We’ll put the YES’s over on one side, and the NO’s on the other. Let’em fight it out.
Me? I’m on the fence. Maybe yes, maybe no. “Undecided” as they say.
Comment by Phil — Mon, Oct 8th, 2007 @ 8:22 pm
I would not go as far to say that the question was very misleading. Perhaps they should ask 2 questions “Should the state provide better healtcare?” followed by “Would you be happy with increased taxation in order to pay for this?” Perhaps then you might get a clearer answer.
Incidentally, Nelonen is reporting that a third of municipalities are considering raising their tax rates.
Comment by JG — Mon, Oct 8th, 2007 @ 9:22 pm
The question wasn’t misleading it was perfectly straightforward. Just because you wanted to ask a different question it doesn’t mean the original question was bad. The question “Should the state provide you with better healthcare?†is a moral question about the role of the state. The question they asked is a purely practical question and is very clear.
Comment by Finnsense — Mon, Oct 8th, 2007 @ 9:34 pm
Lingli - Having used both sides’ health care systems, I’d say the US is far better and I pay a lot less for it. In Finland, if I wanted any kind of care within 6-12 months, I had to and did use private services that I paid for out of pocket on top of the tax extracted from my paycheck. Here, I get an appointment within a week usually and at most I have a $10 co-pay. The roads and schools, well, they vary from state to state.
Perhaps a better question is ‘Why should you pay more for healthcare when your politicians seem to live far better than your average citizen while services keep getting cut and taxes continue to increase?”
Comment by hfb — Mon, Oct 8th, 2007 @ 9:42 pm
“Finland can learn more from other neighbor countries…”
Indeed, that’s what the taistoites were trying to bang into our heads all through the 70’s.
Comment by Antti rn — Mon, Oct 8th, 2007 @ 10:01 pm
It’s always good to learn from neighbours. But it’s also worth noting, they could learn also from us. All 10 of the top 10 most efficient hospitals in the Nordic countries are in Finland. Although, somehow I suspect these 10 are not run by Helsinki and Uusimaa healthcare district!
Yleisradio: Finlands sjukhus effektivast i Norden(Publicerad 2007-09-20)
Finland har Nordens överlägset mest effektiva sjukhus. Det visar en undersökning som Forsknings- och utvecklingscentralen för social- och hälsovårdens central för hälsovårdsekonomi Chess hargjort i samråd med sina nordiska motsvarigheter.
Resultaten talar enligt tidningen Helsingin Sanomat sitt entydiga språk: Alla Nordens tio effektivaste sjukhus finns i Finland. Den genomsnittliga effektiviteten i Finland är 78 procent, i Danmark och Norge 68 procent och i Sverige 54 procent.
Man vill ofta förklara Finlands effektivitet med de låga lönerna inom hälsovården men nu hade lönerna lämnats utanför jämförelsen. Informationen samlades in på 187 sjukhus under en femårsperiod. Island står utanför undersökningen.
Comment by JG — Mon, Oct 8th, 2007 @ 10:22 pm
The question wasn’t misleading it was perfectly straightforward. Just because you wanted to ask a different question it doesn’t mean the original question was bad.
Their question was just as valid as my higher taxes vs. abducted babies question. They pulled the old straw man trap kinda.
Comment by Phil — Mon, Oct 8th, 2007 @ 11:30 pm
“Their question was just as valid as my higher taxes vs. abducted babies question. They pulled the old straw man trap kinda.”
Except yours was an OR question with no causal relationship between the two. If you say “no” to the higher taxes in your example the babies get it. If you say no to the higher taxes with their question, nothing changes. You just get the same healthcare.
Seriously, you’re scraping the barrel here.
Comment by Finnsense — Tue, Oct 9th, 2007 @ 12:05 am
The UK has poured billions of pounds into healthcare since the Labour party took voer, and apparently services are no better or in some ways worse.
Comment by Barstew — Tue, Oct 9th, 2007 @ 6:57 am
“I believe there is a direct relationship between the quality of a service and the resources invested in it.”
Finnsense you dont make any sense. Your statement above is completely incorrect
Comment by uncle sam — Tue, Oct 9th, 2007 @ 7:20 am
“Finnsense you dont make any sense. Your statement above is completely incorrect”
Nothing more to be said then - matter closed. Unless of course you have some kind of argument.
“The UK has poured billions of pounds into healthcare since the Labour party took voer, and apparently services are no better or in some ways worse.”
Obviously you can always waste money. However, doctors have received large pay rises in the UK which will not improve healthcare but is arguably the right thing to do.
Comment by Finnsense — Tue, Oct 9th, 2007 @ 8:35 am
#21
Yes, Antti.
I remember reading “Nykyaika - The Modern Times” -magazine at relatives and wondering how everything could be so fine and wealthy there and why we are still here.
For some reason my dad refused to move in the USSR, thought.
Comment by issi — Tue, Oct 9th, 2007 @ 8:54 am
(Finnish) polls are often just like that — the “correct answer” is included to the question. Another way is to just leave out the answer you don’t want to hear, e.g.
“How much should the taxes be raised so that we could do X?
A) They need to be raised a lot
B) They are OK as they are now or should be raised only a little
C) Neither of the above / Undecided”
– How about lowering? That’s left out, of course. Or if it’s included, it’s grouped together with another option, like “undecided”, so it will never be really interpreted as lowering. If you want to keep taxes as they’re now and answer B, it’s interpreted as raising a little.
Comment by hnd — Tue, Oct 9th, 2007 @ 9:31 am
Here another survey question: Would you like to see KELA cut down on bureaucracy and modernize so that it can use the tax money in a less wasteful and better targeted way for actually fulfilling its objective of helping to cure sick people? Even leftists would need to answer YES YES YES
Comment by bafana — Tue, Oct 9th, 2007 @ 10:46 am
As bafana (#30) points out, bad management and old-fashioned systems are a large part of the problem.
Comment by lbo — Tue, Oct 9th, 2007 @ 11:18 am
#29: “Poll questions and the answer options provided may be misleading/ poorly constructed/ ideologically motivated in which of the following countries?”
A) Only in Finland
B) Mostly in Finland
C) In addition to Finland, also in some other Socialist/Welfare Statist countries
D) Undecided
Comment by Drakon — Tue, Oct 9th, 2007 @ 12:29 pm
No. I think that they should cut down on the bureaucracy and modernize the system and thake the money from there. (I want a flat tax.)
Comment by Mikael — Tue, Oct 9th, 2007 @ 12:34 pm
“As bafana (#30) points out, bad management and old-fashioned systems are a large part of the problem.”
Nice rhetoric but the US system is the world’s least efficient because it multiplies bureaucracy.
Comment by Finnsense — Tue, Oct 9th, 2007 @ 2:09 pm
@30,
The Kela does not pass the laws it has to administer; any change would have to start with a political decision to simplify the system. So let’s rephrase the question: ‘Will you as a voter elect a parliament that will pass new laws reducing the need for bureaucracy?’
Comment by prince of dorkness — Tue, Oct 9th, 2007 @ 2:48 pm
There are still ways to save even more money in the healthcare system, I have heard. One expert suggested using an independent unit to source the supplies, equipment, etc. for the healthcare industry, and go for the best price/quality compromise. I suspect there are some ripoffs going on in the sourcing. I remember years ago trying to source rubber squirt bulbs for one company. (The kind that are used to clean ears.) The Finnish medical supplies company wanted 100 marks a piece for them.
I have seen those kinds of loaded questions in Finnish surveys. They spend a lot of money on the surveys, and the quality of the results is worthless. If the opposing view was presented more clearly, you know the results would be different. It is not democracy - just getting the kind of answer you want to hear.
Comment by Sirkuspelle — Tue, Oct 9th, 2007 @ 3:22 pm
Nice rhetoric but the US system is the world’s least efficient because it multiplies bureaucracy.
- maybe it is the multiples that is needed in finland to reduces the lines????
- Instead of raising taxes, how about determining how much it would cost families to get insurance for private care and then reduce taxes to provide families with that amount of money to purchase the insurance, the price of which would probably go down as more people use it, increasing it’s efficiency.
Comment by Fred Fry — Tue, Oct 9th, 2007 @ 4:13 pm
You all have lines.
We all have a market based system.
No need for a survey to ask if the system sucks. We use our feet, if it does.
There are now ads on TV from doctors willing to give you their cell and text message addresses if you change doctors.
Gee, do you all have that?
Comment by winter, "Yea, Proton Power, now in remission" — Tue, Oct 9th, 2007 @ 4:44 pm
hfb….it may have just been my insurance that made it cheaper for me in finland. you’re right on the politician thing too.
Comment by lingli — Tue, Oct 9th, 2007 @ 9:25 pm
It seems that the evil welfare-statist propaganda has made it to American media as well (is KELA the culprit?)
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2004-03-16-healthcost_x.htm
Good that someone’s doing all right, though (no match to Finnish politicians, but anyway…)
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06108/683054-28.stm
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Tue, Oct 9th, 2007 @ 9:54 pm
How come many here seem to think that cutting slack bureaucracy and modernizing equals an adoption of the US health care system by KELA? Where is the connection?
Comment by bafana — Wed, Oct 10th, 2007 @ 8:12 am
getting US Health care system, means the doctor gives you his cell number.
I have two doctor cell numbers now, how many do you all have? (No text numbers, as they are older doctors).
Comment by winter, "Yea, Proton Power, now in remission" — Wed, Oct 10th, 2007 @ 3:24 pm
Good joke on the Presidental debates last night.
When asked about “Hillary Care” the republican answer, was, if we go that direction, then all those Canadians will have to find another place to get medical treatment.
Comment by winter, "Yea, Proton Power, now in remission" — Wed, Oct 10th, 2007 @ 3:27 pm
High taxes = poor healthcare and long waits. My advice is: Don’t get sick in Finland.
Comment by Anonymous — Thu, Oct 11th, 2007 @ 12:46 pm
“I believe there is a direct relationship between the quality of a service and the resources invested in it.â€Â
Indirect one, yes. If there are incentives to make a service better/faster/etc then probably you get individuals that are willing to work harder for greater reward. Also, in this case, more investment in education and equipment probably equals to greater accuracy, ie. less misdiagnoses or other mistakes. However, quality isn’t a problem - capacity is.
The real problem with the state-supplied healthcare is very simple: inefficiency. So far our healthcare has been pretty cost-effective because the number of people working there is so low. However, the service is rubbish. If you go to the hospital or any other public medical centre because you have something simple and minor that any idiot could diagnose, eg. inflammated eye, you will need to wait for some two hours to see a doctor, who then will diagnose you and write a prescription for the meds in less than five minutes. Which makes you wonder: once you entered the waiting room in the hospital, only four people were called in. So, is it so that if the patient’s not about to die or at least suffering horrible pain, it’s ok to keep him waiting, because it’s not like you’re going to get anything more by working harder and/or because you’re not going to get fired anyways.
I have never waited at a private practice for longer than 15 minutes; not for x-ray, not for CAT scan, not for anything. Early this year, I had my knee operated at the public side of the fence. It only took about 2 months to get an MRI, 2 months to realise there indeed was something wrong after I had only been checked by some half-dozen doctors, then 5 months’ queue to get over with the surgery. And then, after all those months of waiting, they announce that I’ll have to wait another week for the surgery because the doctor isn’t there on that day (oops!) and he only picks knees on like tuesdays and thursdays on even weeks. Finally on that day I was told to come to the hospital at 7 am. I waited until noon to get my first meds before the surgery which was at 1 pm. All very nice, I only had to pay about 300 euros for the whole show (you could easily add a 0 there if done privately, probably more than that) but it took 9 months and in the end I felt like I was being bounced around by an amateurish, inexperienced bunch who didn’t plan anything before they did it, and didn’t really have any idea what to do. Medically the treatment was very good, but administration looked like something that could have been created by a few third-graders.
I bet Finland could save hundreds of millions, not just in healthcare but everywhere, if we got rid of some of the bureaucracy
Comment by cliff — Thu, Oct 11th, 2007 @ 3:02 pm
bafana:
“Where is the connection?”
Try #20.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Fri, Oct 12th, 2007 @ 3:23 am
How is it possible to get rich in Finland..i am paying way too much taxes…
What is the salary of project managers in Nokia?
Kiitos
Comment by Anonymous — Sat, Oct 13th, 2007 @ 8:18 pm
“How is it possible to get rich in Finland..”
http://www.veikkaus.fi
“What is the salary of project managers in Nokia?”
Definitely http://www.veikkaus.fi
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