Nice..laughable even…

Wal-Mart personnel policies are well known, but I’m not a fan of unions either… So this is quite like WWII-era propaganda where nazis were bashing communists and communists were bashing nazis

Mal-Mart replaced you basic Mom and Pop stores, with one that provides health care, where the Mom and Pop store did not.

So just where were the Unions when the Mom and Pop stores rulled the market?

Well, comparing wages between industries with those that have weak unions and those that have strong I wouldn’t dismiss the union entirely.

I don’t know how unions work in america, but here even if you’re not a union member you get to enjoy the benefits in pay and working conditions.

The video is funny though.

It is very transparent what the agenda is here in this video.

#4 Philtard, that’s not entirely true. At least in most manufacturing sites and building sites a policy of “closed shop” is pretty much the case regardless of what the law may ssay. That is you’re facing compulsory union membership or no work. Union membership (at least in these fields) is overwhelming and those wishing to remain outside of it find work difficult at best.

Union thugs meet every Sailor who gets off a commercial ship, asking for a political donation. If you don’t give, cash, you get in a long long line for your next ship assignment.

Unions = Thugs

Its that simple. They are not there to help you, they just extort cash.

Winter, finally something of value comes from your mouth. Well said sailor.

@6&7: Might be the case in Australia & the US, I wouldn’t know, but that is not how the unions operate in Finland. Maybe the difference is that the Finnish unions never had any links with organized crime.

My friend told me about this when he worked at Wal-Mart. Of course, his employment didn’t extend past this video because he started realizing that he was going to work at Wal-Mart.

“Might be the case in Australia & the US, I wouldn’t know, but that is not how the unions operate in Finland. Maybe the difference is that the Finnish unions never had any links with organized crime.”

The large unions in Finland are in bed with the government(politicians), and government is the one that’s handcuffed and taking it every which way from Monday. American unions have never had the kind of power that they unions in Finland hold.

The weird thing is that in America, people tend to be paid better (or at least used to before the dollar slip) than in Finland, even though
unions have no business in a lot of American companies.

aet75, certainly it is the case in Finland. The metal, paper and construction unions are prime examples of where, almost without exception, it is impossible to be employed in the industry if you’re not a member. How exactly that is connected to organized crime is beyond me. Yes unions in Australia certainly have been “connected” before but as comments 11 and 12 point out the unions here are connected to government (which is just as bad in some cases) and lack of union involvement has hardly damaged pay, safety or conditions in Australia or The US.

Powerfan, I gather you are not an American? In fact unions used to have, and still have in many branches, a lot of clout in American companies. Why do you think Wal-Mart is so afraid of unionized employees?

#14- you just answered your own question. How many unionized employees work at Wal-Mart? Unionism is a thing of the past (thank goodness) just like other isms (Communisim, Socialism, Fascisim….)

Here is hourly salaries from 2004:

Wal-Mart CEO H. Lee Scott, Jr. (based on $17,543,739 per year, 40 hours per week): $8,434.49
Average Full-time U.S. Wal-Mart Employee: $9.68. That is about $1512 per month, $18144 per year but typically works less than 24 hours a week! = 10000 per year!

Hourly pay of Wal-Mart subcontractors:
Bangladesh $0.17
China $0.17
Indonesia $0.46
Nicaragua $0.23
Swaziland $0.53

Finland (from 2005), (cash register worker),: 7.38€ ($10.3) plus after 18.00 four euros, in saturdays plus five euros, in sundays double pay.

Wal-Mart is one big exploitation scheme, especially in developing countries (25-30 dollars PER MONTH!). Unions are crucial for workers and without them most employers behave exactly like Wal-Mart is doing.

“A part-time worker must work at Wal-Mart for a minimum of two years to be eligible for health benefits. When eligible, most Wal-Mart workers cannot afford health benefits that cost more than 20 percent of the average worker’s salary. Wal-Mart workers have no choice but to rely on publicly assisted health care. Even upper-management cannot afford the health benefits Wal-Mart “provides.”"

“According to a report by Rep. George Miller of California, when a Wal-Mart supercenter that employs 200 workers comes to town, the cost to federal taxpayers is $420,750 a year, or $2,103 per employee. Miller’s breakdown: $36,000 a year in free and reduced school lunches; $42,000 a year for Section 8 housing; $125,000 a year for federal tax credits and deductions for low-income families; $100,000 a year for Title I expenses; $108,000 a year for federal health care costs; and $9,750 a year for low-income energy assistance.”

earth calling Tim, earth callig Tim. So you’re happy to work after 6pm, saturdays, sundays etc etc etc. I would never have guessed you of all people would. The US worker is on basically the same standard hourly rate according to your sums but only works less than 24 hours a week. Well I wonder what they do with the free time after that. Perhaps (like “underpaid” firemen) they do a second job. Who cares as long as they’re happy. If 24 hours a week $9.68 at Wal-Mart followed by another perhaps 20 hours elsewhere is what floats their boat, fair play to them.
As for your calculating of Wal-Mart CEO H. Lee Scott Jr and his salary based on a 40 hour week, I guess that really shows how detached you are from reality. It is also perhaps the reason you will never become CEO of anything substantial as you fail to understand the workload involved and imagine everyone works this 40 hour workers fairytail. This may be true in North Korea or Cuba but then again I don’t believe the job market there is hiring at the moment. They’re more interested in finding food.
By the way, if you consider taxes and purchasing power, I’d rather $9.68 an hour at Wal-Mart in The US than $10.30 an hour serving drunks and underage kids beer in S-Market. Bet their $9.68 goes further than $10.30 here.
Maybe you should just call yourself Timism from now on????

Punter, does this sound good:

“Wal-Mart recently agreed to pay an $11 million fine for using undocumented janitors in Pennsylvania, Ohio, Missouri and New York, and was found guilty in Oregon for forcing its workers to work overtime for no pay, behind locked doors. Furthermore, Wal-Mart agreed to pay a fine of $135,540 for violating child labor laws in Connecticut, New Hampshire and Arkansas.”

WTF, CHILD labor laws!?!

OH Tim, you’re a classic. Don’t you realize you have just posted examples of all the “assistance” offered to people in that dirty capitalist land you so hate???? Free school lunches, housing assistance, tax credits, health care costs even energy assistance. Now, I thought you had to have a high taxed regulated almost socialist State (like Finland) in order to offer help to those that need it? Isn’t that how you justify all the tax and govt intervention here? While over there in The US, the poor have nothing. No help or assistance, dog eat dog living?? Well Tim, isn’t that your normal point?? Read your post Timism.

Cashiers at Costco Wholesale make about $25 an hour – those who have reached the top step . meaning they have put in 4000-10000 career hours depending on their hire date. This includes the lump-sum they get twice a year.

Walmart is a very bad example of corporate creed and abuse of the working man/woman.

Correction: Spar-market cash register worker basic pay (first year, 2006): €8,29 = $11,6. This means average pay of ALL workers in a Finnish supermarket must be a lot higher than in a Wal-Mart. Even cash register trainee gets about seven euros.

Hello Tim, do you read me? Over.

Punter, even on a libertarian blog you’re not gonna convince many that Walmart is a non-evil entity.

Have you ever been in a Walmart? If so, did you notice the condition of most of the employees teeth, for example? Not so good.

Wasn’t it you that said a few days ago that you wouldn’t “get out of bed” for less than 2000€ per month? You said in your above comment that those Walmart workers (sorry, “ASSOCIATES”) were happy with the poor salaries and working hours. Without a union, how the fuck would anyone know this?

Dave I said “as long as they’re happy” and not “I know they are happy” quite different. In the case of the workers, no-one I imagine is forcing them to work there. If they are happy and by the size of Wal-Mart I guess at least some are then fine. If not, go find work elsewhere. As for looking at the teeth of Wal-Mart employees, I suggest it might have something to do with the type of people employed there rather than the salary or workplace. One could draw all kinds of stereotypes about people working in such “careers” but would then be labelled a snob or something similar. Anyway, it is perhaps fair to say that some of these employees are not the most educated, driven or motivated individuals around. Perhaps the lack of motivation also extends to their dental hygiene.
As for getting out of bed for €2000 a month, yep I remember saying that and stand behind it. I personally would not get out of bed for €2000 a month. So what. ´
I’m more interested in Tim’s replies to his capitalist USA and her welfare for the poor Wal-Mart workers. Oh, one more thing. At least on such a “low salary” they can apparently get support in The US more than can be said for Finland. Pay out support but remove it as soon as someone gets even the slightest amount of income from elsewhere. Talk about removing all incentives to get off the welfare bus.

Democrat Presidential candidate Sen. Hillary Clinton today said that while she supports the right of union workers to strike “in principle”, GM employees should “get back to work immediately to ensure that my campaign has plenty of cash to defeat the party of big business in 2008.”

United Auto Workers (UAW) entered their second day of a nationwide work stoppage against General Motors, union president Ron Gettelfinger hailed the success of his plan to increase job security by slashing company production and profits.

“Our union members deserve steady employment for life as much as the autoworkers of Europe do,” said Mr. Gettelfinger. “By not producing any vehicles, the UAW proves we can compete in the global marketplace with anyone…for example, with France.”

“Powerfan, I gather you are not an American? In fact unions used to have, and still have in many branches, a lot of clout in American companies. Why do you think Wal-Mart is so afraid of unionized employees?”

Unions in the US have 1/10th the clout they used to have. The clout they used to have is 1/10th the clout unions have in Finland today.

In the US their membership has been dropping steadily for 30 years. A skilled construction worker in the US makes more than twice as much as he/she would in a similar job in Finland.

#28 “A skilled construction worker in the US makes more than twice as much as he/she would in a similar job in Finland.”

Add to that the fact they probably have twice the jobs to choose from and it’s easy to see why the union movement is on it’s last legs. They even pulled their kids out today in my hometown to join their protest. Got somewhere between 15-20000 people from a city and surrounds of almost 4 million. And to think on Saturday around 100000 will flock to a football match next door. Unionism RIP

Yep. Football game I will be at this Saturday is sold out. I plan to get there early for the tailgate party.

Union === Dino

“Unionism RIP”

Sure punter, it is better individually try to negotiate your salary with multi-billion dollar company. Your negotiation power against them is like attacking against a tank with BB gun. You just don’t get it.

Labour unions is the only way for relatively low to moderate skilled workers (not everybody can be plastic surgeon, IT consultants or rock star) to have meaningful negotiation power against companies. Otherwise we all would be still working 16 hours per day with shitty salaries and no safety rules and benefits, just like in the 19th century.

Punter and winter like people talking naive selfish crap pisses me off because they pay lip service to many previous generations of workers. They had to even spill blood and live through violent labor strikes in order to one day have a decent wage and safe working conditions. Now companies like Wal Mart are using this “unions are bad”-thinking for their advantage.

Tim, if only you knew my past before I arrived in Finland. It is fair to say that I come from one of the most unionised houses in Australia. My previous work my even shock you. It is for this reason and because of these experiences that I speak the way I do of unions. I have seen the ins and outs from top to bottom of them from as far back as I have memories (very early 70′s) and therefore I feel more than qualified to speak of them TODAY.
As for previous generations of workers that is exactly what they are, a previous generation meaning from a time before. Much like unions. They have done their job but just like many things over time they have passed their used by date.
The thing that pisses me off (as you so beautifully put it)are the people on the left and unionists more so than others that “dumb down” their members, rank and file, workers, call them what you like. You speak down about them and make them feel hopeless, that without the wonderful intelligence of unions and the power they have the worker would not be able to fend for themselves. Times have changed. Workers are wise and intelligent people nowadays unlike times past. Todays worker is most likely a high school graduate min if not higher. They have argumentative and negotiating skills and are more than capable of sitting down and working out their employment details. If the union stopped scaring them into thinking the “big bad boss” is going to get them and screw them, you might find more workers ready to accept this responsibilty and see benefits from it. The only problem, at least for the unions, is this would make them redundant like so many of their members over recent years and we all know the last “workers” to leave their jobs will be the union officials. Please remember to turn the lights off.

Some time ago, as a newbe in a Multi Million Dollar company (GE). I sat and watched my co-desk worker, get his yearly pay raise. Right after the pay raise interview, he picks up the phone, calls another company (Software area) for an interview.

Bottom line, he leveraged the GE pay raise, with a second company, to get a high double digit pay increase.

So no, you can’t do it yourself, you do need a UNION. Or sadly just a phone.

#31: Doesn’t seem to be working for those Wal-Mart “associates”.

I never shop at Wal-mart. They Abuse older retired workers by not paying them overtime and have at least 20 lawsuits against them,latest being a class action from women workers. They have also been cited for hiring workers unauthorized to be in the USA. Workers have subbsandard health and retirement benifits. As one of the biggest importers from china, they have sold toys with poison paint on them. Workers have told of being “Locked in” the store at night while stocking shelves. Quality of goods and wages have suffered from this irresponsible corporate beast. They have an almost unstoppable strategy though. Go into towns, lower prices to ball bust other business in the area, then expand the store and hire all the out of work former workers of the competiton at Minimum wages and benifits. Good news is that Many towns are resisting and refusing to grant building permits for new Walmarts.

older workers are abused….by by by….get this

no overtime.

gee, what next, no bathroom breaks.

That is the wonderful thing about competition and free markets, they are just hat. FREE. If you don’t like Wal-Mart and co don’t shop there. If enough people don’t like them they’ll go away. Rather than slam them on forums and then shop there and wonder why they do what they do, boycott them. If the majority of Americans thought the same and stayed away, chose to spend their money elsewhere, then Wal-Mart and the like would be forced, by market pressures to change. Unfortunately most people who speak out against big corporations are to tight fisted to change their spending habbits and shop there too. Then when the big stores do what they do (to maintain low prices for consumers) people get upset. You can’t have it both ways. Shop there or not, it’s your choice but don’t complain about them and then go out and shop at their sales. In fact don’t buy anything that comes from or is supplied by one of these big corps. When enough of you do it you’ll see too that the free market really is a wonderful place.

Punter is right. Put your money where your mouth is.

But But, can the left do that?

Punter,
Nice of you to point out Timmy’s conundrum. Funny that he hasn’t responded. Timmy, Timmy, Timmy, the people are waiting for your response. Is there really social assistance available in that land of greed and woe?

Yeah Timmy seems to have a problem with things like that. Just like his comments on “THE LIST” and the army situation on another post open at the moment on FFT.

Let’s all join in and ask for TIMMY to respond. Sounds like South Park.

“TIMMY, TIMMY TIMMY”

Me thinks Timmy has been smacked down to hard.

Punter gets the credit. Darn.

@13: Paper is a special case that could be discussed at length (and represents a unionized industry at its worst), but in metal and construction the need for employees is so desperate that no union can control the employment policies. Foreign workers are brought in by the shipload, despite the unions bitching about it. You only need to take a look around the new nuclear plant site to see this.
The organized crime I mentioned just to make the point that maybe it is the reason for US (& Australian) unions’ thug-like tactics Winter was complaining about.

Construction is strange in that there is such a shortage of workers that it really is the wild west. Even the unions know this but in any case, even the imports are under siege because of the unions and their desire to protect their interests. Metal certainly is as old fashioned as paper, certainly in manufacturing sites, mills and factories. As for paper being “a special case” I fail to see how so. Any industry therefore could call itself “a special case” and run along the same lines as the paperworkers?
As for the crime, as I mentioned I think it is a crime to be so closely associated with politics. I’m certain of the fact the unions get loads of kick backs and are looked after pretty well by the political parties of Finland. In many places this would be considered criminal or corrupt, in Finland however it’s just business as normal.

Paper was a “special case” because such a small portion of Finland’s workforce used to be such a vital part of the economy, and therefore had huge leverage. Eventually they literally priced themselves out of the market (even factory cleaners made salaries like NASA scientists) and all but killed the whole industry in Finland. Never could happen in construction, for example. I think the closing of the paper mills marked the end of the Kekkonen-era style of union politics. Lots of used Mercedes and BMW cars suddenly on the market, I bet.
At the moment, both metal and construction are recruiting like crazy, especially young people who don’t give a toss about politics, and rather pay dues for unemployment insurance (työttömyyskassa) than to the unions, because it’s cheaper. The Perno dockyards is a good example, I bet the old school union types are soon in the minority, as the baby boom generation retires en masse.
Unions and politics are so intermingled because of history. Socialism originates from the struggle for better livelihood and working conditions. It’s only natural that that link persists. After all, now that emancipation and issues like that are ‘solved’, politics are mostly about economics and, by extension, labor. But I think it’s more the other way round, with unions backing political parties. And if a huge portion of your constituents belongs to a certain union, you simply must pay attention.

There is undoubtedly much room for improvement in the way that unions operate in the United States and in Finland, for that matter, but for a company to force new employees to watch that blatantly manipulative anti-union video is just creepy!

#44 “but for a company to force new employees to watch that blatantly manipulative anti-union video is just creepy!”

Just about as creepy as having a bunch of union stooges come to you on your first day to explain the “benefits” of being a union member (read compulsory) in terms of your job. Little difference.

Let’s see, punter and winter is against collective bargaining (labour unions)?! Collective bargaining is a good way to low to moderately skilled workers to achieve bigger salary and better working conditions.

Of course labour unions can be corrupted and even infiltrated by Mafia but on the other hand, even bridges seem to be collapsing in the US. Is that the fault of the architect of the bridge or those maintaining the bridge?

About 20 percent of workers at the top end do not need unions because their skill sets are in high demand and companies naturally offer good conditions and salaries.

That is not the case with average truck driver or cleaning woman which can be put down and heavily by big companies without good labour unions defending them. THAT is the main purpose of labour unions. One cleaning woman striking is not going to change anything but 100 000 might just achieve something. Without unions Wal Mart is the end result.

It all comes to replacement cost of an employee. Replacing cashier, truck driver or accountant is not that high to individual employer that they wouldn’t try to put down demands of higher salaries or other work related things.

Employer could always say separately to any one worker:

“Fuck you and your demands, I’ll get another one”

Unless a good labour union behind them says,

“Hey fuck you too, 10 000 others will go on strike”.

That affects other employers too and in the end it forces to employers to negotiate. Highly skilled workers do not need that because the replacement costs are often too high for employer.

Punter, I wrote you a long-ass response to #43, but it apparently never made it. Darn. My thinking quota for the weekend is filled, so I can’t rewrite it. But it was super thought out and special, I can tell ya!

Strike that there it is, and it doesn’t look that special anymore I need to get some sleep.

Timmy Timmy you are stuck in the past. The new kids comming out of high school, will have 9-11 jobs, in a life span, where your Dad had 1-2.

Unions don’t fit the mobile, in demand, market.

Gee Timmy, you are smack down easy.

“Hey fuck you too, 10 000 others will go on strike”.

“Well you go ahead and do that, while we pack our shit and move production to China.”

aet75: And all Finns are unemployed by now? We have better labour participation rate than in the US!

Of course if we had never collectively invested in public education (thanks partly to labour unions), we would be somewhere between Albania and Poland.

The precedent was set with the paper mills. How many proper industrial strikes since then? In the current situation, with the desperate need for skilled labor, a strike would be the last straw for many companies. Finns are always slow to pick up new things, and we’ll get there yet… Chin I mean.

Tim, the point was, apart from the labour unions, why do you point out the fact that the state (in the evil capatalist US of A) pays out all of this support, assistance heck call it welfare because Wal-Mart is so cheap? Don’t you realize what a complete ass you make yourself look like? For the better part of 2 years I have been reading this (I think) all I have heard from you is left this left that, F the US and their lack of welfare. How wonderful Finland is because of our public services, care for the poor and underprivileged etc etc etc.
For Christs sake man you are now throwing us the examples of state support in the evil land of George W. You’re throwing that in our faces to show how bwd Wal-Mart is? Dear boy wake up and think about what you’re saying. With people like you on the left it’s no wonder the words of Marx and Lenin got stuck where they did. You’re a classic.

#53- Wait till next spring and the negotiations for the new award for paper workers. Should be fun. Just hope Mr. Ahonen has the good sense to include Russian lessons for all paperworkers in his demands because that’s where the jobs will be going

“Just hope Mr. Ahonen has the good sense to include Russian lessons for all paperworkers in his demands because that’s where the jobs will be going”

So how is that different than YOU going to your boss, asking for raise?
He could also say “fuck you, this company goes to China”.

Punter is suggesting that only employers should determine the salaries and workers should be happy with that. Workers should never have any kind of negotiation power or god forbid, join together to form a labour union.

56/57 mine.

No Tim, read the Fing post. What are you doing? USA=Welfare State (evidence by Tim73)

As for the paper union people, the union’s ridiculous demands over many years and their unwillingness to surrender their “hard earnt” benefits will result in further closures, loss of jobs and eventual relocating of mills to our eastern neighbour.

Now there are two points, please address them both.

Gee, Punter, sure sounds like the USA United Auto workers Union delema.

Now I get to buy my Honda, with no real care if they strike.

“As for the paper union people, the union’s ridiculous demands over many years and their unwillingness to surrender their “hard earnt” benefits will result in further closures, loss of jobs and eventual relocating of mills to our eastern neighbour.”

Exactly the point I was trying to make. While there is no doubt in my mind that we have the unions to thank for many improvements in working conditions that we now take for granted (in the US more through the employers’ efforts to keep unions out than actual union activity, but nevertheless), when they go overboard they are very harmful, even dangerous to the economy and their members. Many union leaders in Finland are yet to realize that the global economy means global competition. Assets like patents and brands have become much more important than manpower. Hate to say it, but Winter’s got it right here .

No retort from Tim yet…

Cheers. My point too. Brought up in a union household and agree they have done wonderful things over the years but like most things, time waits for nothing and their time has passed. To try scare mongering like things will go back to the way they were before just shows the desperation the unions will go to in order to protect what’s left of their power.
As for Tim, I don’t think he knows what he said or just wishes there really was censorship on this site. That way he could contact Phil and try to have his posts (too much information) removed for a price….. Or get his union to do so.

USA=WELFARE

Where are you Tim?

Timmy Timmy, no ideas, or just ones with holes in them?

YOU HAVE GOT SOME KIND OF CLASS IN THIS SITE. Good to see you up and around!

I am happy to see this site so much. It is always nice to hear such good news as your site.

the problem is, walmart is so corrupt it NEEDS a union. workers are constantly being treated unfairly. and yes i saw this video. they say unions are ant-walmart organizations. its rediculous

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