Another interesting use of public tax records?
@ 12:57 am We have already read about how the Finnish government publicizes peoples’ tax records, including those of under-aged minors. Read it for yourself. (note: unofficial translation) Official Finnish version. Now it seems that income of foreign residents is not immune to this either. Now, Teemu Selänne has been in the news lately with his boating accident case, with his “reported” income being thrown around in the news.
A brief English edition of the news article.
Apparently, they want to fine the non-resident Teemu, who works in the United States as an ice hockey player, based on his income there. They want to fine him “20 day fines“. In Iltasanomat from 22-23.9 it said that his fine will not be “astronomical”, because his reported income was only 750,000 dollars, or about half a million Euros. Reported income? Where the heck did they get this “reported income” from. Do they make income from people who live in other countries public as well?
I wonder if Teemu “reported” his income, only to have it publicised by the Finnish government, or did the Finnish government acquire the information on Teemu’s income via official channels? If the latter is the case, then someone is breaking the Exchange-of-Information clause in the USA-Finland tax treaty, which basically says any information exchanged will be treated secretly and handled only by relevant officials. At least Iltalehti and the Finnish public fall outside that scope, I believe.
Fining someone according to their income in a foreign country they reside in - well, I have a funny, nagging feeling about that one. I will be asking some people about that one. Stay tuned.
There would be no news and no case if it was Matti Meikäläinen who sunk his fishing boat, even if there were other people aboard. This also makes one feel hesitant about calling for help when there is an emergency, since it appears that the government will take the opportunity to dip their hand into your pocket when they see it, especially if you are known to have a big pocket. Notice how the whole focus is on Teemu, and not the guy who was actually driving the boat. The Ilta-Sanomat article said that he was a 37 year old male who had 100 or so hours driving experience on Teemu’s boats. Forget him, he doesn’t have any money. Finland seems to have some corruption after all, in ways we like to turn a blind eye to, since it is so entertaining. This whole case stinks from top to bottom.
The lesson: Be careful all you new Russian summer cottage owners. Be careful who you talk about your money matters with. And don’t wreck your boat, and if you do, don’t call for help because they know you have money, at least enough to finance your summer cottage with, and they will want a piece of it.
I’m equally worried about the privacy aspect of this case although I disagree with some of your points.
There would be no news and no case if it was Matti Meikäläinen who sunk his fishing boat, even if there were other people aboard.
This is a bit doubtful. I can’t remember another boating accident off the top of my head (who has the money to own a boat in Finland anyway?) but you can read about a Matti or Pekka getting fined for wrecking their car every other day in the papers.
The Ilta-Sanomat article said that he was a 37 year old male who had 100 or so hours driving experience on Teemu’s boats. Forget him, he doesn’t have any money.
What do you mean? The HS article that you link to yourself clearly states that the driver also faces charges:
HS:
‘The friend who was at the helm at the time of the incident will also face a court appearance for maritime safety offences and for neglecting good seamanship.’
Sirkuspelle:
This also makes one feel hesitant about calling for help when there is an emergency,
So we should give everyone breaking the law a break if they end up in an emergency, lest they not call for help? (Although admittedly it’s not very clear at this stage whether Teemu broke the law or not.) You made some very good points but this is pushing it.
Comment by mh — Mon, Sep 24th, 2007 @ 2:14 am
The lesson: “Be careful who you talk about your money matters with.”
True in any country, but especially true in Finland.
Comment by maaksalaatikko — Mon, Sep 24th, 2007 @ 3:33 am
Since he resides, presumeably, more than 6 months (i.e. the majority of the year) in the US, his ‘tax home’ is the US and the IRS does not make that information public. Now, if he somehow still pays KELA on the odd chance that he plans to retire in Finland, then Finland would, of course, know how much he earns and that would be public information.
Comment by hfb — Mon, Sep 24th, 2007 @ 5:14 am
We know the ‘reported income’ of most sports stars in the UK (and US) with their apparently “superior” tax privacy rules. This is the most tenuous link yet…
Comment by Rich — Mon, Sep 24th, 2007 @ 7:34 am
Forget the guy who was actually driving the boat. Since he has no “name” and no money, they don’t even want to give us his name in the news articles. It’s not entertaining.
Comment by Sirkuspelle — Mon, Sep 24th, 2007 @ 8:17 am
#5 Perhaps the driver of the boat is on “THE OTHER LIST” the government and powers that be keep hidden from us in this most open of societies. Being on THAT LIST is more than enough to make sure your name and vitals will never be made public.
As for Teemu he should just sell up anything he has in Finland that profits the state and stay in The US. I would offer the deal of a fine now but not a penny after that by pulling my money out or common sense in the case.
Finally hfb, why would Teemu be paying to finance his retirement in Finland? I find it amusing to think he would risk tax and day fines in Finland to benefit from a state pension someday. This fine will wipe out any pension payment he gets even if he lived to be 300. I really doubt the pension (or even the climate) would be attractive for Teemu and his family or at least less attractive than a seaside palace in Florida with a garage for all those cars. Come on.
Comment by Punter — Mon, Sep 24th, 2007 @ 9:21 am
@6: You mean the Stasi list? Hey, if being on that list ensures protection of your privacy, how do I have my name added?
Comment by Sirkuspelle — Mon, Sep 24th, 2007 @ 11:20 am
First you must be one of the elite of Finnish policy making (preferably pink to red in colour) so I guess that eliminates most of us
(by colour I mean)
Comment by Punter — Mon, Sep 24th, 2007 @ 2:18 pm
@1: I don’t actually propose not calling for help if someone’s life is depending on it. That part was rhetorical, “for thought”.
Comment by Sirkuspelle — Mon, Sep 24th, 2007 @ 2:28 pm
relax people this is not sharing of information from the US and Finland. I has happened to me as well. I got busted for speeding doing 40KM above the speed limit near visulahti (96KM on a 60KM) and I showed the cops my US driving license instead. Since they were not able to pull my income, I told them how money I made and thus they quickly wrote me a fine for €440.
That is how they got my income from the US and is likely what Teemu Selanne did as well. Frankly I think he low balled them since his real salary is more like 2 to 3 Million not counting endoresements.
Comment by unlce sam — Mon, Sep 24th, 2007 @ 6:13 pm
@11: It is possible for information to be shared between the USA and Finland. It is covered in the tax treaty. However, getting information out of the IRS will be pretty interesting. You want bureaucracy - that is bureaucracy in its finest.
Comment by Sirkuspelle — Mon, Sep 24th, 2007 @ 7:36 pm
“Apparently, they want to fine the non-resident Teemu, who works in the United States as an ice hockey player, based on his income there. They want to fine him “20 day fines“. In Iltasanomat from 22-23.9 it said that his fine will not be “astronomicalâ€Â, because his reported income was only 750,000 dollars, or about half a million Euros. Reported income? Where the heck did they get this “reported income†from. Do they make income from people who live in other countries public as well?”
Actually, he doesn’t work in US anymore. NHL will start in less than a week and he’s not there yet. Teemu said that he doesn’t know if he’ll continue playing or not, but it’s pretty obvious he’s retired.
And the source of the reported income is Teemu himself. Cops can’t check foreigners income here so they have to settle with any amount they are given.
Comment by JJ — Mon, Sep 24th, 2007 @ 7:36 pm
No wonder you all have zero Billionaires.
Comment by winter, "Yea, Proton Power, now in remission" — Mon, Sep 24th, 2007 @ 7:46 pm
No wonder you all have zero Billionaires.
Hey winnie, did they accidentally stick your brain instead of your prostate under that proton beam? It could happen when both ends share an uncanny likeness.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Mon, Sep 24th, 2007 @ 7:59 pm
Ah the brain, yep the one that actually lets you in the EU know how stupid your policies are? Supporting thugs and killers? Love you for that.
And even better, is your economic stupidy of mothering everything, to death. Completly screwed up an entire Slave class now?
Yep, an reminder on how bad you all rule the world, in fact a reminder of how bad you have screwed up the world.
Unlike the USA, where we think of the world as something to try to help, you all just curl up with a cup of Java, and say “How can we get the USA fix our messes again?” or “Ain’t that cute, 8 000 Muslims being frog marched off to a machine gun in this Yugo war, and all we will do is take some pretty pictures.”
Comment by winter, "Yea, Proton Power, now in remission" — Mon, Sep 24th, 2007 @ 8:20 pm
The way the greenback is going, it won’t be long before we all (in the EU, that is) are dollar billionaires.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Mon, Sep 24th, 2007 @ 9:36 pm
The way the Euro is going it won’t be long before we have nobody left to trade with as they won’t be able to afford it
Comment by Punter — Mon, Sep 24th, 2007 @ 10:21 pm
Ah heck, with a cheep dollar you all will flood over here and retire. Darn, will I have to make money again?
Comment by winter, "Yea, Proton Power, now in remission" — Mon, Sep 24th, 2007 @ 10:42 pm
I realize this is hard to grasp. But the idea behind progressive fining (and thus being aware of the finees(?) income) is simply that punitive actions should also reach people.
Because the function of the fine is to financially hurt the person being punished. With flat fines you essentially say that rich people can drive faster etc. without any meaningful punishment.
What is the difficult concept here? Equal justice?
I have no clue how they will get the required information in this case though. Anyway like a wise man said: “you have no privacy, get over it”.
Comment by philtard — Tue, Sep 25th, 2007 @ 2:07 am
Philtard, I think even the Finnish government is coming around to seeing the faults of having a system like this. Check this out:
http://www.om.fi/Etusivu/Ajankohtaista/Tiedotteet/1172045543109
also go to the link, which has another link to a PDF of the actual law changes proposed. I assume you can understand Finnish…
Comment by Sirkuspelle — Tue, Sep 25th, 2007 @ 8:58 am
philtard: this posting has nothing to do with the progressive fine, or charges. Sirkuspelle and Kristian basically randomly pick up stories to support the agenda of preventing their very own tax info from being published. The actual story is immaterial to the root cause. They are free to promote their agenda, but their strategy / attitude is rather unpleasant and obnoxious.
Although we keep seeing ‘treaty’, ‘bill of rights’ and some documents showing up, I have my doubts about their interpretation of the law, since it seems unlikely that either of them are actual lawyers. As for promoting the ’security’ issue, I also doubt about their understanding on how security (as opposes to privacy) operates in practice. But as I said before, this never stops them. It’s just pitiful that FFT is left with all the opinions polluted with this agenda.
Comment by David — Tue, Sep 25th, 2007 @ 1:59 pm
@21: Here is an example of a security problem: (from the links in the article.) This is only one that was documented from a parlaiment discussion. I am sure there are more… One doesn’t need to be a lawyer to see problems with this. The European Commission corrected the parts where I had the law interpreted wrongly anyhow, when they registered my complaint regarding my tax records being published and sold without my permission.
Verotietojen julkisuuskäytännössä olevista ongelmakohdista kertoo myös toinen käytännön esimerkki: Alaikäiset sisarukset olivat saaneet perinnöksi ja lahjoituksena osakkeita. Vanhempien pyrkimys oli hoitaa lastensa osakeomistusta siten, että osinkotuotot sijoitettiin ostamalla sisaruksille lisää osakkeita. Viime vuosilta tuttuun tapaan siihen asti tasainen tuotto nousikin yhtäkkiä tuntuvasti, ja tämä näkyi myöhemmin myös lasten verotustiedoissa. Alaikäisille lapsille ei ollut kasvatuksellisista syistä kerrottu kovinkaan tarkasti heitä aikuisina odottavasta pesämunasta. Heidän nimensä julkaistiin kuitenkin muiden verotietojen yhteydessä lehdissä, ja seurauksena oli lasten kannalta hyvin kiusallinen ja raskas julkisuuden kohteeksi joutuminen. Tähän sisältyi mm. tappouhkaus sekä täysin perusteettomia vihjailuja perheen harjoittamasta “verosuunnittelusta”.
(translation)
Another problem with public tax records is shown in another practical example: Underage siblings had recieved corporate stocks as an inheritance and gift. The parents intention was to handle the children’s ownership of the stocks in such a way, that the dividends were reinvested into buying the siblings more stocks. In the familiar way we have seen in the recent years, the regular growth of the stocks increased suddenly in a dramatic way, and this showed later in the children’s tax records. The underage children, because of the way they were raised, didn’t know very much about the nest-egg that would be waiting for them when they are adults. Their names were published together with the other tax records in newspapers, and the result was quite difficult and trying situation to be come the object of publicity. This also included, among other things, a death threat and completely unfounded hinting that the family was practicing tax planning.
@10: if it was the police that collected the information from Teemu about his income on site and then made it public without his permission, that is also legally and ethically questionable.
Comment by Sirkuspelle — Tue, Sep 25th, 2007 @ 2:39 pm
@22: They make it sounds as if tax planning was a crime akin to smuggling. Perhaps it is a case of “Lost in Translation”?
Comment by Nomad — Tue, Sep 25th, 2007 @ 8:14 pm
#19: What about a point system? Commit an offence -> points reduced from your driver’s licence. Lose enough points -> lose your licence. That would be truly equal.
Finland is the only country where your tax information is available to anyone. The practice is against EU law. You can’t rationalise it with equality.
Anyway like a wise man said: “you have no privacy, get over itâ€Â.
Must have been a finnish wise man…
Comment by mh — Tue, Sep 25th, 2007 @ 9:27 pm
get over the rich don’t even get affected by fines. Most Millionaires I know run around in old sneakers, and ripped pants.
How do you think they made a million dollars.
Real tight wads. Fines do make an impact.
SO get over it.
Comment by winter “Yea, Proton Power, now in remission†— Wed, Sep 26th, 2007 @ 2:47 am
@23: no, that’s what it says in Finnish too. It is clear that it is not the neighbours’ place to punish someone for their method of handling their income and taxes. If there is a crime, then it is the officials’ job to handle it. Kristian and I quote the Human right and Finnish constitutional right regarding this that “everyone has the right to freedom from interference with his private and family life”.
In the same document where that comes from, the vice minister of finance also basically says the same thing, that public tax records are unnecessary, purely a political thing, kept there for making money for the press while they entertain peoples’ curiosity.
Comment by Sirkuspelle — Wed, Sep 26th, 2007 @ 8:44 am
Apparently, the professional drivers in Finland want to have a point system, that works together with the traffic cameras.
Article in Finnish:
http://www.hs.fi/autot/artikkeli/Liikenn%C3%B6itsij%C3%A4t+pisteytt%C3%A4isiv%C3%A4t+liikennerikkomukset/1135230087372
Comment by Sirkuspelle — Wed, Sep 26th, 2007 @ 9:11 am
@22:
“published information without his permission?”
See now it is PUBLIC INFORMATION who has done what and when. Called TRANSPARENT GOVERNMENT. So we can see what was the verdict based on.
No chance for corruption, what you apparently prefer. Move then to somewhere you can buy the police off.
Comment by Hank W. — Fri, Sep 28th, 2007 @ 11:34 am
Sirkuspelle,
The more I learn, the more I’m convinced that Finland is among the more corrupt members of the ‘western’ community. The country does everything possible to avoid following EU and UN laws, but then expects to have a voice internationally - not just a voice, but a self-righteous one at that. It doesn’t just stop with tax records; there’s plenty more.
My time in Finland is certainly an eye opener, and this violation is NOT what I expected when I initially accepted a job assignment here. How in my wildest dreams could I have guessed that a supposedly modern country would do something so stupid?!
I find your website (I assume you created it) very informative and clear. Just recently, I sent a complaint to the European Commission about this matter, and I’ve got another one in the works. Please look for my email; I would like to discuss my second complaint with you if possible. Cheers.
Comment by Ronald Bates — Fri, Sep 28th, 2007 @ 2:25 pm
Ronald, I would certainly like to discuss this with you.
Feel free to e-mail me at: showmaster at verosirkus dot com.
The European Commission is taking the complaints seriously and registering them.
Comment by sirkuspelle — Sat, Sep 29th, 2007 @ 9:36 pm