Finland for Thought
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17.9.2007

Where is Finland’s entrepreneurial spirit?

Tags: Uncategorized — Author: @ 2:44 pm

Finland has basically just one company, Nokia, and thank God for it because it’s what puts Finland on the map. The country is made up of highly educated individuals, yet companies rarely make it out of Finland, and it seems like they’re not even trying. Finns were major players in the mobile applications and services industry, yet appear to be completely non-existant in the emerging Web 2.0 field, and we know Finland has plenty of engineers and programmers who’d be ideal for this . So where is Finland’s entrepreneurial spirit?

Finland is renowned for its research and development (R&D) but has been much less successful at commercialising its innovations and growing world-beating companies. In this respect Nokia is very much the exception that proves the rule.

“R&D is like an ice hockey club,” says Mauri Pekkarinen, the minister for trade and industry. “If you bring on young players but don’t give them an opportunity to play, you lose them to the US.”

R&D represents 3.5 per cent of Finland’s gross domestic product – of which 70 per cent comes from the private sector, notably Nokia – and Finland is high in the league table of patents per capita. However, many of these innovations are either exploited abroad or the companies that develop them are soon sold to foreign owners.

The lack of a real go-getting US-style entrepreneurial culture is blamed for this state of affairs. Attention is now focused on what can be done to change individual attitudes and the Finnish environment so that more of the knock-on effects of innovation are retained inside the country.

The first problem is that few Finns are entrepreneurs and few want to be. According to a Eurobarometer survey in 2004, 68 per cent of Finns are employees, compared to a European Union average of 50 per cent.

I think Finland’s entrepreneurial problems are two fold – First off, this self-hating, lack of self-confidence, “I shouldn’t ask for too much” Lutheranism found everywhere in Finnish culture is the genetic makeup of a successful entrepreneur. And two, starting your own business is a HUGE risk with a LOT of sacrifice, but in the welfare state, it has little payoff. People only take on these enormous risks if there’s a big enough carrot at the end of that stick, but the welfare state ideology gnaws most of that carrot off through heavy taxation, so the risks are no longer worth it.

Plus, Finns have the lowest net worth in all of the EU15, so few can afford to survive off savings in the company’s early years, and have few options to turn to when looking for investors. And Financial Times agrees

For some critics, the reasons for the lack of an entrepreneurial culture run much deeper and lie in the country’s generous welfare state model. “In this kind of (welfare) society you need to make a special effort to encourage people not just to be very good workers in someone else’s company but to be employers themselves,” says Mr Pekkarinen.

Risk-taking is deterred as the costs of doing so can be severe and the rewards uninspiring. “The balance between returns and risk is not good enough,” says Mr Järventaus.

There is no US-style Chapter 11 bankruptcy, though it is being considered, and until recently an entrepreneur was discriminated against if his company failed and he tried to claim social benefits.

On the return side, income taxes are heavy and dividends are double-taxed (though reform is being considered), so entrepreneurs have to give up much of the gains from their hard work and vision.

Nevertheless, as Finns become wealthier and more self-confident, attitudes to wealth and risk are beginning to change, according to Mr Mäkinen. “People have become wealthier,” he says. “They are prepared to take risks and look for quality of work.”

  • Kristian

    Plus, Finns have the lowest net worth in all of the EU15,

    Yes, high-taxes inhibit savings, and it basically means you have to start a business with a huge amount of debt. It’s very difficult to justify, considering the low-payoff.

    Also, who would enter into any major financial commitment in Finland when personal financial details are made public for everyone to see? —competitors in other lands, and people who might want to sue you, can just visit the Finnish tax office and get a clear financial picture of you.

    Business is risky enough without this type of nonsense. Most serious Finnish entrepreneurs choose to start their businesses in other countries.

  • tsuhna

    Finns have the lowest net worth in all of the EU15

    Yes indeed – although it would be more correct to say that Finnish households had less wealth in 1998 (just four years after the housing bubble) than other EU 15 countries had in 2000 (without any comparable housing bubble).

    But that’s of course a minor detail as well as the fact that Finnish households have since then increased their wealth faster than any other European country making Finnish households worth more today than some EU15 countries (hard to know wich exactly because there is no study about it). The net worth of a an average Finnish household in 2004 was around €110 000 (compared to around 40 000 in the UN study from 1998). And that’s without public retirement funds (another €30-40 000 or something).

    I’m sure that you will from now on stick to the facts and refer to the newer figures … no, just kidding. ;-)

    Finland has basically just one company, Nokia

    Indeed, Nokias share of the GDP is around 2 per cent, which means, I reckon, that Finland’s GDP is really small, just 2%. ;-)

    The global market share of the Finnish forest industry is closer to 50% in some branches, by the way, but that doesn’t count, I suppose, because you don’t work there.

  • phil is a pedophile

    god you’re so hot i wanna rip your clothes off and make sweet love to you

  • http://www.finlandforthought.net Phil

    I’ve been wondering why Finns haven’t been developing Web 2.0 services. Maybe they are, but it’s being done by Finns living in Silicon Valley.

    But Web 2.0 services are basically 2% good ideas and 98% sales and marketing. Finns have the good ideas but are lacking the sales & marketing. Maybe that’s why Finns are so attracted to open source stuff, cause there isn’t too much sales and marketing involved?

  • Markku

    “Finland has basically just one company, Nokia, and thank God for it because it’s what puts Finland on the map.”

    WTF?

  • http://www.verosirkus.com Sirkuspelle

    In Finland, it is a sin to be successful. That is Jante’s Law. “Don’t think you are better than us.” That is perfected with official legislation in the form of public tax records and allowing the selling, publishing and putting in the internet of those tax records. Then there is the humilation of the wealthy whenever they get a ticket or have an accident. In this way the government of Finland still practices public punishments, like the public floggings and the laughing stock of the old days.

    It find it strange and hard to believe that Finland has such a low net worth. What I think is that many Finnish people are “hiding” their wealth. The Veropörssi magazine gives plenty of motivation to hide one’s money. And there are plenty of good places to put it and invest it. So who knows really how much Finnish wealth is overseas or hidden otherwise. Who wants to open themselves to intrusion of their private and family life? (that sounds oddly familiar)

  • http://www.finlandforthought.net Phil

    I’m sure that you will from now on stick to the facts and refer to the newer figures … no, just kidding

    Yeah but in that study, all the other countries didn’t include public retirement funds and many of those countries went through that same housing bubble – so Finland would still be on the bottom of that list.

  • http://www.finlandforthought.net Phil

    By the way, if the average Finn has an average of 30K-40K in public retirement funds, how do I get that money? I’d like it now please.

  • http://www.finlandforthought.net Phil

    WTF?

    C’mon, without Nokia, this country is basically as meaningful to the world as Estonia, Latvia, Poland, and Delaware.

  • philtard

    First off I wish you would lay off the lutheranism thing.
    It is annoying stereotype that there’s no evidence of in the current generation of 20-30 yo people at least.

    Secondly for example in the mentioned web 2.0 field the starting investment and risks are non-existent compared to the possible profits.
    It is a mystery to me why we can’t charge more companies up on that field.

    It is also true the payback because of red tape and taxation isn’t as potential as it could be. Then again I myself studying and working in the so called web 2.0 (fucking hate that word) field find the freedom and flexibility of freelance work very appealing compared to the tedium of running a business.

    If you would want to glue this to a larger social context about Finland and finnish people, then that might be that we appreciate independence and freedom in life, which for example makes taking loans for start-up costs quite unpleasent. Also for many young people the traditional big house -wealth isn’t appealing compared to the mobility and change of scene offered by being a hire.

  • philtard

    “…Stora Enso, the largest paper manufacturer in the world..”
    “..UPM-Kymmene, the third largest paper manufacturer in the world..”

    I guess Phil is employing a well known american strategy of being dumb on purpose.
    And nokia doesn’t put us on the map because everybody always thinks its a japanese company.

    Besides if we get into this companies/countries thing we might as well declare Cayman Islands as the best place on earth.

  • tsuhna

    Business Environment rankings by Finfacts (the opportunities for and obstacles to business … ranked on its overall position and in each of ten categories):

    1 Denmark
    2 Finland
    3 Singapore
    4 Switzerland

    Ha! If Finland was so good surely it’s economy would grow faster than that of others (by something like 4-5%). Or the expansion of start-ups would be the best in Europe. But see the sorry state of the affairs here:
    http://www.forfas.ie/ncc/reports/ncc_annual_05/ch04/ch04_04.html
    Britain is better.

  • tsuhna

    Yeah but in that study, all the other countries didn’t include public retirement funds and many of those countries went through that same housing bubble – so Finland would still be on the bottom of that list.

    False, false and false. Anyway, it seems that Finland nowadays rank higher than Greece, Spain and Portugal. An average Finn has more financial asset than those fuckers. The “correct” position is probably a bit higher because Finns have more money (proportionally) invested in housing than most other EU15′ers.

    But we are poor, no denying it (well not me in particular but apparently you and Kristian). But a bit richer than our parents who thought that electri city is a place in America and who had to ski to school all through the winters and summers – often backwards.

  • Kristian

    C’mon, without Nokia, this country is basically as meaningful to the world as Estonia, Latvia, Poland, and Delaware.

    I don’t have information about Poland, but Estonia and Latvia have very professionally-minded governments that attract and encourage business. So, I’d say they are MORE significant than Finland in terms of ‘new technology’ businesses and many types of services.

    Finland got a nice spike in investment activity over the past decade or so, mainly because formerly-state-owned industry was privatized and gaps needed to be filled. But most of that money came from foreign sources, not from Finns themselves. Even Nokia is now over 90% foreign-owned.

    But now that most state industry has been privatized, I think that ride is over. Getting dynamic innovators, with original and profitable ideas, to settle in Finland isn’t so easy. Maybe that’s a reason for the low salaries in Finland?

    On the other hand, nobody can match Finland on paper production. And there are plenty of farmers who receive state subsidies; I guess they count as entrepreneurs, too.

  • http://www.finlandforthought.net Phil

    First off I wish you would lay off the lutheranism thing.
    It is annoying stereotype that there’s no evidence of in the current generation of 20-30 yo people at least.

    Even though the younger generation aren’t bothering religion, I think it has had a big impact on society which still exists today.

  • tsuhna

    Maybe that’s a reason for the low salaries in Finland?

    Finns had the 12th best salaries last year in the world relative to prices (“net spending power”). Or there abouts, who takes statistics seriously when you can always ask you? Truly appalling. And lately the Finnish salaries go up yearly by only one percent more than in other EU15 countries. I demand 10 if not 100.

    (But absorbing this kind of information would destroy a good story so let’s forget them. Let’s keep pretending that Finnish salaries are a joke and Estonia and Latvia have better hi-tech – lol.)

    But now that most state industry has been privatized

    Yes, just 30 billion left and most of it in industry.

  • http://www.entrepreneurshipfinland.com Jon Martin

    There’s no doubt that Finns are not culturally inclined towards entrepreneurship as a group. It’s also probably true that some of this is due to the lack of bankruptcy laws. I’m less convinced by the idea that the taxation system has anything to do with it when it comes to web 2.0. people who start web 2.0 companies are not looking to make €80,000 a year, they are looking to sell or float the company and make millions. If you sell your company for €1m, you still get about 78% of that to take home with you, which isn’t bad.

    There is an absence of wealthy people here, which leads to a dirth of angel investment and VC money. The VCs, of which there are several, are not web-oriented either. I would also mention that networking is very important if you want to get a web company off the ground and that’s not easy if you have a shy culture.

    Still, things are changing. The first Helsinki Open Coffee (informal networking for entrepreneurial people) happened last Thursday and was a success. Maybe we’ll see you at the next one Phil? (http://entrepreneur.meetup.com/1320/). There were plenty of people there who would benefit from some of your marketing expertise.

  • Anon

    tsuhna, stop making sense quoting these evil studies, you’ll make Kristian’s and Phil’s heads explode! It’s not easy to be a libertarian in Finland, you know. Help them out, maybe start small and complain about the prize of the Kebaps. Car tax also works. Or maybe the tax record thing. Or praise Germany.

  • mh

    Phil:
    Maybe that’s why Finns are so attracted to open source stuff,

    Could you elaborate, please?

  • Kristian

    Finns had the 12th best salaries last year in the world relative to prices

    I think we discussed this before. But notice that FfT almost exclusively uses figures and data that are provided by Finnish news sources. These are things being discussed in Finland. Just click on the links within the FfT articles.

    But if you are satisfied with your salary and standard of living, then good for you. Nobody is trying to convince you that you shouldn’t be. But many in Finland aren’t, and the difficulty of attracting foreigners with special skills is perhaps good validation of their concerns.

    Insofar as entrepreneurism goes, I think Finland would be a great country for many reasons. On one hand, the climate sucks; but on the other, it has low-population density which means land and office space is easy to get. Plus, it’s a relaxing place to work, live and have a family.

    But for now, Finland fails miserably in a few key areas. You can’t talk about attracting business one moment, and then act like a commie the next. In that way, the eastern European countries have made a clean break from the past. Maybe Finland should do the same?

  • Helsinkian

    Phil, what’s your point behind self-hating? Are Finns today seriously any more self-hating than anybody else?

    If you meant that anybody who votes for higher taxes is a self-hater, then I don’t think self-hatred is the cornerstone of the welfare state.

  • tsuhna

    But notice that FfT almost exclusively uses figures and data that are provided by Finnish news sources.

    Huh? News sources? As far as I know – I didn’t read everything – the fellow used standard OECD etc stuff. But often in a somewhat biased way. My guess is that he’s been told certain politically inspired “truths” that he liked or didn’t check properly for some other reason.

    Otherwise it’s hard to understand why he, for example, “forgot” to mention that in the first half of the 90s Finland went through a depression which in many ways was worse ever in any industrialized country. Or that the employment figures are starting to be close to the highest in Europe (or America), 71,8% in June.

    Even Risto E. J. Penttilä, for heaven’s sake: Risto E. J. Penttilä, said that the guy picked up everything that’s bad and forgot everything good.

    In other words, i wasn’t impressed.

    Here’s something to chew on from the Eurobarometer on entrepreneurship. When asked about difficulties when setting up a firm 72% of the EU15′ers agreed (or strongly agreed) that:
    “It is difficult to start one’s own business due to a lack of available financial support.” IN the USA the figure was 69%.
    Now comes a reality check. How many of us dirt-poor Finns thought so?

  • Zark

    I guess my reply with links got eaten by spam filter :-)

    2nd try.

    “I’ve been wondering why Finns haven’t been developing Web 2.0 services. Maybe they are, but it’s being done by Finns living in Silicon Valley.”

    Jaiku? Igglo? Habbo? Just to name few… All pretty successful as far as how Web 2.0 firms can be currently judged – i.e. news articles and speculation :-) . Jaiku has received some waves/raves also in the Silicon Valley circles. Igglo just expanded to Norway and has some pretty ambitious growth plans and Habbo has sites all around the globe.

  • Punter

    Tsuhna, the 12th best salary? Really? Finns?
    Employment figures being close to the highest in Europe (or America)? Really?
    Are you Tim73 and on the medicine again by any chance?

    “Employment figures close to highest in Europe (or America)” Now that’s a good one. The economy is flying along with all that job growth.

  • anon

    And Nokia is here because of war reparations to Soviet Union (remember Nokia cable factory).

  • tsuhna

    Employment 2006, top five (Eurostat): Denmark (77.4%), the Netherlands (74.3%), Sweden (73.1%), the United Kingdom (71.5%) and Austria (70.2%). USA’s employment is something like 65%, more or less. Finland’s employment in June 2007 was 73,5.

    Not that I’d expect you to understand something this “complicated”.

    The salary comparisons are even more complicated so I don’t even try to explain them to you. But as to rankings, it’s fairly certain that comparable average net salaries are ranked somewhere between 15 and 10. Gross salaries are in top ten, seventh in Europe I think. Then again somebody like a chief executive earns childishly little, nothing like the guys in Turkey or Russia. Or the USA even.

    Sorry.

  • http://www.finlandforthought.net Phil

    Maybe that’s why Finns are so attracted to open source stuff,

    Could you elaborate, please?

    Linus Torvalds, open mobile platforms like S60, etc..

  • Punter

    #26-”It’s fairly certain….., are ranked somewhere between……, seventh in Europe I think…..”

    “Not that I’d expect you to understand something this “complicated”.

    How are we to understand what you’re trying “I think” to say “perhaps” when it seems as though possibly you are not quite sure exactly what it is you are attempting to explain to us somehow????

    Tell me, do you work with SDP? Any political party? Defence lawyer? I’ve got, used car salesperson????

  • tsuhna

    Oh dear boy, you’re trying to be witty! But trust me, it’s too complicated for somebody like you, you know the grosses and nets, purchasing powers, payroll taxes, progression, VATs and the like … sorry, of course you _don’t_ know.

    But hey babe, you could start with this one: the Finnish income distribution is perhaps the most equal in the world. How do you think this “affects” high-end salaries? What about low-end ones?

  • Punter

    The reason for the magical equal distribution of Finnish income all comes down to the fact that it is easier (relatively) to evenly distribute nothing than it is to do so with more. In good old Soviet times, this meant everyone had bread, and high quality bread it was too. How proud they were. Trabants and the like abounded in East Germany unlike in the evil West where not everyone had a BMW or Mercedes. This may make some people (perhaps you) happy but don’t try selling it to me
    As for the original topic here, n-one seems to mention that the Nokia boom and many of it spin offs in the export sector only came about due to the 2 devaluations in 1992-93 of the FIM. With the economy in melt down following the loss of your Soviet markets and the West unwilling to barter like the East did for your “quality products”, the government of the time had little option to stimulate the economy by devaluating the currency. I believe the oll on effects of this are now coming to a halt and the true position of the economy and its competitiveness will be seen in the coming decade. Dark clouds are gathering indeed.

  • Hank W

    You answered it yourself:
    The country is made up of highly educated individuals,
    Only stupid people start businesses, as they canot calculate their odds.

  • Hank W

    OK, so what do we have in the top 10 playing on the radio?
    “Puistossa” (in the park) by Anssi Kela… (find it on youtube)
    Freely translated:

    A beautiful young woman Laura is
    After going to business college
    she decided to establish her own company
    and took a big loan from the bank
    the company went bankrupt
    Now she can’t cope with her bills
    never mind the loan

    See now yoy start a business – you pay until you die.There is no such thing as a personal bankruptcy.

  • Herkku

    OK, fellas, you can quote all the stats you want.

    I am actually starting my business as we speak. I have an accountant in Helsinki and I am going tomorrow morning to the Yrituspalvelukeskus to fill out the forms. In the last 2 weeks I have figured out that it is actually cheaper to establish in Finland the same kind of business as the one I had established in the US. The insurance premiums are also cheaper. It does take slightly longer, but it is so much simpler.
    I guess it depends where in the US you are, but boy, I do not miss all that at all.

    That is all, carry on.

  • winter “Yea, Proton Power, now in remission”

    “If you bring on young players but don’t give them an opportunity to play, you lose them to the US.”

    yep, it is the USA’s, evil empire, fault.

    Darn, we are good. Even have some evil stormtrooper outfits for you all to wear.

  • mh

    >>Maybe that’s why Finns are so attracted to open source stuff,

    >Could you elaborate, please?

    Linus Torvalds, open mobile platforms like S60, etc..

    Heh. Funny that you should mention S60 in this context since it is
    developed by Nokia and they’ve probably done their bit of marketing too.

    Linus Torvalds is something of a special case. He’s a hacker who happens to have finnish roots. People of his kind like open source – it has nothing to do with being finnish. It took years of development by hundreds of individuals around the globe before Linux got to the point that your average Joe User might consider using it, let alone paying for it. There’s just no other way he could have pulled it off.

    I’m not saying I disagree with you. But I’m not convinced either based on just two examples. ;)

  • winter “Yea, Proton Power, now in remission”
  • Powerfan

    During the last recession it was almost daily occurance that you would read on the newspaper about men (usually), who shot themselves or themselves with their families because they knew what was waiting after bankruptcy.

    Finns have no leniency what so ever towards business people who fail.

    Finns tend to feel that they pay for the business failures with their very own money. Even families tend to disown the ones who fail amongst them.

    If the Finnish common men got their wish, bankrupt people would be hung live on tv. The sad thing is, that would probably be better for a lot of the bankrupt folk. Who often end up dying anyway from stress / coping related illnesses.

    Go to any Finnish mall. Instead of shoppers going nuts, you will see people treating the mall as a living room where they sit, buying very little. Most of the action in Finnish malls seems to happen in supermarkets… In America, malls usually do not have supermarkets. People do not go buying groceries to the mall! They go buying new clothes, jewelry and so on. In Finland people sit there while they wait for their appointment in KELA.

    Nokia is successful because it does not rely on the Finnish people.
    Anything that relies on Finnish people has to deal with every day
    items that fit our frugal, cheap life style.

    Then there are these batshit insane innovations that people seem to go for like mad dogs in a heat, like walking sticks. I mean what the hell? Sure the walking sticks are good for beating the rabid moose, but other than that. What a joke.

    Finns for the most part seem to be aware of the things I stated above. Because of that the parents tend to tell the kids to try to aquire skills that they can sell for firms, instead of becoming business men that they secretly want to kill.

    Ive seen the entrepreneurial spirit die so many times.. It always starts with optimist and ends in tears. But hey, Ive seen it in America too.

    But in Finland it is just sadder. Because of our bankruptcy laws.

  • JG

    Nokia may be a giant, but there are many other big companies as well. To say Nokia is Finland is going a bit far.. I think for 5 million, we punch quite well. Just off the top of my head I think of Kone, Fortum/Neste, Outokumpu, Stora Enso, UPM Kymmene, ABB, Rautaruukki, Fiskars…
    But of course, naturally Nokia is the first name you think of due to its size (and also the very nature of what they do brings familiarity to all – few people have ever not shopped for a mobile phone – whereas how many people go around studying who made the lift/elevator they used?). I am sure such things are similar for many smaller countries. It would be hard for me to think of five large Irish, Portuguese, Greek etc companies.

  • JG

    actually ignore ABB from my list, i think i was wishfully naturalising it into a Finn! (I think it might be a Swedish firm in fact. I just know my company does a lot of business with its Finnish operation, which is not small)

  • Oregon

    Congratulations Herkku! You have made the right observation – it may indeed be cheaper to run your business here than in most places in the US – or in Europe. It only took me three years and a Finnish partner to realize that most of the anti-entreprenurial propaganda is cooked up by Finnish entrepreneurs to discourage their employees from starting their own businesses.
    Good luck!

  • Cunter

    Could someone explain why shouldn’t entrepreneur be responsible of his/hers company’s debts? I mean who should be? Taxpayers? You dirty little commies!

  • justme

    “Maybe that’s why Finns are so attracted to open source stuff,

    Could you elaborate, please?

    Linus Torvalds, open mobile platforms like S60, etc..”

    S60 is an open platform like Microsoft Windows is an open platform. Not releated to open source stuff.

    Ok. We have Linus Torvalds, but you have Richard Stallman.

  • http://www.entrepreneurshipfinland.com Jon Martin

    “Could someone explain why shouldn’t entrepreneur be responsible of his/hers company’s debts? I mean who should be? Taxpayers? You dirty little commies!”

    Actually entrepreneurs are not responsible for company debts, only for personal debts taken on for the sake of the company (provided it’s Ltd/Oy).

    The reason bankruptcy is good is because it allows people to take risks. New companies are the lifeblood of a modern economy and people should be encouraged to start them. That means that it makes sense for society to suck up some of the costs of failure.

  • tsuhna

    Then again Finnish start-ups are pretty good at surviving, actually, expectationally good. It’s as if the folks really though out what they’re going to do beforehand.

    An important reason for that is that the bankruptcy laws are a bit harsh: no automatic personal bankruptcy, instead your case is settled in court where you’ll end up, in essence, promising to be poor for the next several years (10-15?) paying back your debts.

    Usually the “punishment” is much less harsh than what people think: one of my bankrupt neighbors keeps living in his “mason” looking pretty happy – I doubt that it was the wife who turned out to own everything after all – another one lives without working in a pleasant downtown apartment fulfilling finally his life-long ambition of writing books. His mom pays the rent

  • Herkku

    Oregon, thanks, I appreciate the encouragement. I agree with what you said, and should I fail, I only care about what I and my customers think, not “society” or my family. And people, please don’t confuse this with libertarianism, while I do not care what they think, I still *care*.

    Now, about bankruptcy. It may be true that Finland does not have the same laws like in the US, but you simply cannot argue that safety net is much much much better here than in the states. Yes, at the cost of potentially reduced entrepreneurship, you have a system that does not let people just die on the streets.

  • Freeridin’ Franklin

    As a business, a consultancy is practically risk-free. Most of the costs are salaries and other employee-related costs. Taking a personal loan to back your business is pretty desperate, and I really don’t know why anyone would do that in the current situation, considering that banks are competing on shoving truckloads of money down your throat.

    Most of the sad stories from the days of the recession are related to people starting businesses during the crazy years of the 80s and living according to their newfound “pisnis män” social status, backed by currency loans.

    It is said that during those days you needed to buy a suit, grow a moustache (in case you didn’t have one) and skip a haircut. The bank manager would finance any kind of pisnis.

    According to another saying, in those days everyone with a tie and a willy was a bank manager.

  • Freeridin’ Franklin

    Herkku, may I ask what kind of business it is that you’re starting? Is it Ky or Oy? Will you be hiring employees? Will it be based in Helsinki?

  • Nomad

    I am a non-EU citizen who moved to Finland 3 years ago to work for the Big N. After gaining the experience, and building contacts in the industry I said goodbye to the pitiful salaries and raises (if you can call them that) by quitting and starting my own toiminimi.

    I think starting a business here is very easy, bureaucratically speaking. Language was a problem, but it wasn’t too bad. I saved up for 6-8 months to build a contingency pot and then quit. Of course the taxes are killing and I couldn’t care less about social security system. But it has worked out for the past 4 months and the outlook is good for the next 6. At least I am making more money!

    If there was a way to contribute less to social security, I would jump at the chance – I don’t want it, I will plan my own retirement, thank you. In any case, I prefer getting service ‘now’ at some cost rather than wait a few weeks to get it for free. It is very amusing to hear Finns talking about foreigners wanting to move here for ‘the benefits’. Not everybody – most of my foreigner colleagues at Big N couldn’t care less.

    As far as taxation is concerned, with my increases earnings, the burden has become higher. So I will eventually convert my business to an Oy and start drawing dividends that will be taxed at a flat rate of 28%. Who in their right mind wouldn’t?

    As far as the entrepreneurial spirit of Finns – I have to say that they are too laid back to have one. Being ambitious doesn’t come easily to them in my limited experience. My limited experience being trying to convince some friends to join me and the way the others react when they hear I quit Big N.

  • Freeridin’ Franklin

    Nomad:
    As far as taxation is concerned, with my increases earnings, the burden has become higher. So I will eventually convert my business to an Oy and start drawing dividends that will be taxed at a flat rate of 28%.

    You need to research the issue a bit more. Sure, if you have over €1M of capital, your dividends are tax free up to 90k, after which 30% are tax free and 70% are taxed according to the capital gains tax.

    But for us small timers, 70% of dividends after 9% of capital are taxed according to the income tax. Note also that before dividends, there’s a tax of 26% on company profits. There’s a reform supposedly coming on the double taxation, but I’m not holding my breath waiting for tax-hiking Kokoomus to implement it. Thanks again for voting, Kok fanboys.

    Now, if you’re not the most cheerful tax payer, there are ways to relieve your burden somewhat. Say you want to rent a “työsuhdeasunto” through your company. Let’s say you like the view over Sepänpuisto and get this one. The taxation value on your salary is 130€ + 296*8€ = 2498€. That’s 4002€ of tax free income per month for ya.

    There are smaller perks as well, such as tax free broadband and a GSM for a flat taxation value of 20€/month, regardless of how much you use it.

  • Punter

    #49 “tax-hiking Kokoomus to implement it. Thanks again for voting, Kok fanboys.”

    Yeah and the other options for business friendly parties are exactly what? VL? SDP? VIH?
    I admit the difference in the parties here are minimal at best but at least KOK is a better option than those pink or greens above? Makes me wonder why Finland was never a monachy, I mean with the single policy and vision of our various political parties at least we could have a queen/king to slag off. Better than Tarja “THE LIST” Halonen and her cronies……..

  • Herkku

    Nomad. I think your problem is instant gratification. I don’t presume that you came from the US, but that is one of the things that I like about Finland and that is one of the reasons I left Amerikkka. Although I am pretty impatient myself, I understand that getting what you want and getting it NOW! is not exactly the most mature of behaviors. However I cannot judge you, as I do not know you.
    That said, I think those SMS-loans have to go…

  • Herkku

    Franklin, I would rather not say here what it kind of business it will be. It is going to be an “entrepreneurship” (form Y3 to start it) and it will be based at one of Finland’s second cities. If it goes well I will definitely be needing to hire salespeople, a proper webmaster and an in-house accountant, but that is probably at least a year away.

    I do not like to reveal personal details here as I frequently express political opinions. You can email me at zamarakatranemia@gmail.com for more.

  • Herkku

    Franklin, can you explain the “työsuhdeasunto” thing from above a little more? Feel free to email me at the above email.

  • tim73

    There is nothing wrong with Finnish entrepreneurial spirit. Usually people like Phil and Kristian, which work for big and/or employmentwise safe company, complain about general “lack of spirit”. Start your own business and then you can see and experience it yourself.

    You have to remember 80-90 percent of startups fail within five years (globally) and one has to prepare for one or two failures at least. It is not for everybody.

  • Freeridin’ Franklin

    Franklin, can you explain the “työsuhdeasunto” thing from above a little more? Feel free to email me at the above email.

    I can explain it here. There are various fringe benefits that are part of your salary but have a set taxation value. Of these, a rental apartment is by far the most significant. The taxation value in the capital area depends on the building year and apartment area thus:

    Before 1961: 130.00 € + 8.00 € per sqm
    1961-1983: 120.00 € + 6.45 € per sqm
    1984 or later: 130.00 € + 7.06 € per sqm

    These apply to all apartments in Helsinki, Espoo, Vantaa and Kauniainen. For the rest of Finland the values are:

    Before 1984: 80.00 € + 4.90 € per sqm
    1984-1991: 86.00 € + 5.58 € per sqm
    1992 or later: 87.00 € + 6.57 € per sqm

    At least last year’s fringe benefits are available also in English:

    http://www.vero.fi/nc/viewarticle.asp?domain=VERO_ENGLISH&path=488,493,515&language=ENG&article=4394&index=

    In practice, if you are an employee of your company (it may have to be an Oy, I have to check), you may rent your apartment through your company and make the rent as part of your salary. Only the taxation value will be taxed according to the income tax, regardless of the actual rent, so this will be a serious tax advantage if you rent a somewhat snazzier place. As far as I know, there are no limits on the size of the apartment, so the extreme example I posted should be perfectly legal. If your “second city” is Tampere where rents can be pretty high, I believe that you can reap some benefit with this. The downside is that your company will have to pay the agency fee (1 month’s rent + VAT).

    Regarding information about your business, I understand perfectly you unwillingness to divulge personal information and do not wish to pry. I am however interested in how things turn out for you.

  • Powerfan

    Thushna wrote

    “Usually the “punishment” is much less harsh than what people think: one of my bankrupt neighbors keeps living in his “mason” looking pretty happy – I doubt that it was the wife who turned out to own everything after all”

    Now.. Imagine the wife divorcing the husband as happens in about 80 percent of bankruruptcies. Hell be ward of the state.

    Another thing is. How could the wife have got the “mansion” to herself? If it was in his name and the money was transfered illegally, shell get a tax slip from the mail pretty soon that will make the wife bankrupt too. Then they can both be wards of the state in a kela apartment next to you soon.

    ” – another one lives without working in a pleasant downtown apartment fulfilling finally his life-long ambition of writing books. His mom pays the rent”

    His mom pays the rent.. For how long.. Does not sound too cozy for me.

    I know one case in which wealthy parents sold a grocery store to their son (he took a loan).. He ended up going bankrupt during last recession.

    After that. The parents pretty much disowned their own newly broke ass son. He became ward of the state.

    Yea. Bankrupt people in Finland are living the dream baby!

    Not.

    In Finland, the sons and daughters of reds still hate anyone who tries to be porvari. And nothing makes them happier than telling tales of people who failed.

  • Nomad

    Freeridin’ Franklin:
    But for us small timers, 70% of dividends after 9% of capital are taxed according to the income tax. Note also that before dividends, there’s a tax of 26% on company profits. There’s a reform supposedly coming on the double taxation, but I’m not holding my breath waiting for tax-hiking Kokoomus to implement it. Thanks again for voting, Kok fanboys.

    I did not mean to imply that I am in the €1M league. I just read briefly about the tax advantages of paying yourself in dividends compared to being taxed for all company income as personal.

    Now, if you’re not the most cheerful tax payer, there are ways to relieve your burden somewhat. Say you want to rent a “työsuhdeasunto” through your company.

    I bought an apartment unfortunately :)

    There are smaller perks as well, such as tax free broadband and a GSM for a flat taxation value of 20€/month, regardless of how much you use it.

    This would require being an employee of an Oy, right? Currently, I am setup as a toiminimi.

    Herkku:
    I think your problem is instant gratification.

    With regards to health, hell yeah :) But you might be right. It’s just that I will never get used to the ‘social’ ways in this case.

    On one hand, I enjoy a relaxing sauna, like getting ticket numbers for movies so that I don’t have to queue for 3 hours to get good seats, like the access to quiet countryside when I want it, etc.

    On the other hand, I hate having stores closed on Sundays, lack of variety in restaurants, insane 9-5 business hours of shops. But you win some, you lose some.

  • Herkku

    Franklin, thanks, I will ask my accountant about that.
    Now, I know this is a funny place to ask this, but does anybody know of a non-paypal system to accept online credit card payments from all over Europe. I have found Luottokunta, but I need something more universal.

  • Herkku

    Nomad. Touché.

  • http://www.verosirkus.com Sirkuspelle

    Start a business in Finland. 1 year later, your business secrets are in a magazine called Veropörssi which ends up in the Internet for anyone to download. By business secrets I mean: capital income, personal income, and tax percentage. No thanks. I would rather start a business in Uganda.

  • Freeridin’ Franklin

    #60: What are your feelings about your credit history being on sale in the U.S.? Doesn’t spin your propeller?

  • tim73

    “Now, I know this is a funny place to ask this, but does anybody know of a non-paypal system to accept online credit card payments from all over Europe.”

    Just google credit card processing or internet merchant account. Luottokunta is really really cheap when compared to most international competitions. Most of them take 4-6 percent at least per transaction but it is below one percent in some cases for Luottokunta.

    The system is actually quite straightforward, the payment is done totally separately at Luottokunta’s website and it returns either “cancelled/not accepted” or “all ok” to the webshop. Credit card numbers are never stored in webshop.

    To setup webshop, one example: http://www.omaverkkokauppa.fi/

  • Freeridin’ Franklin

    Punter:
    Yeah and the other options for business friendly parties are exactly what? VL? SDP? VIH?

    All of those you mention are probably more sensitive to small business needs than Kokoomus, but while it pains me to say this, the most business-friendly party is probably Keskusta. The reason for this is quite logical: even though farmers are swimming in subsidies, they are technically entrepreneurs, hence business-friendly taxation is in their interest. Kokoomus voters, on the other hand, tend to be civil servants and low-paid white collar slaves in the private sector. “Porvari” in their vivid imagination only. Their voting behaviour is best explained by a need to belong.

    The latest Kemira scam is a prime example of the Kokoomus way of doing things: i.e. Häkämies giving away a state-owned company to his buddy. Long live blue&white ownership! (Or at least until Häkämies’ party buddy sells his Kemira shares to the herring fishers for a handsome profit). I guess you could call that “business-friendly”. Just not your business or mine. We get higher taxes.

  • Herkku

    Thanks tim73! It looks like Luottokunta for me, unless I can find a good pan-european alternative. I do not trust paypal and Google Checkout is too focused to the US, although it is very easy to use.

    About the credit rating agencies, it is ridiculous how easy it is to screw yours or somebody else’s. The amount of errors on them are staggering. I definitely prefer all of Finland knowing my income than my rating to depend on me paying the bureaus off to “monitor” my reports. I wonder what Rand would think of the Equifax-Transunion-Experian cartel…

  • Freeridin’ Franklin

    tim73:
    There is nothing wrong with Finnish entrepreneurial spirit. Usually people like Phil and Kristian, which work for big and/or employmentwise safe company, complain about general “lack of spirit”.

    You hit the nail on the head. I really breaks my heart if some unemployed propellerheads or Nokia employees think that I lack entrepreneurial spirit. I guess I’ll have to make some more money to soothe the pain.

  • Kristian

    Tim73: “There is nothing wrong with Finnish entrepreneurial spirit. Usually people like Phil and Kristian, which work for big and/or employmentwise safe company, complain about general “lack of spirit”. Start your own business and then you can see and experience it yourself.

    I don’t work for an “employmentwise safe company.” Throughout my entire working life, I have been either a part-time or full-time entrepreneur. For many years, my specialty has been property renovation and building, but I have also worked in the software field as either a consultant or employee.

    I’m NOT one of those who complains about lack of entrepreneurial spirit in Finland. I know through personal contacts, that it most definitely exists despite every action to quell it. Who do you think supports our efforts to get Finland to comply with EU directives the most?

    After all, unlike those in America, we in Europe have Data Protection laws that are well-crafted and complete. It’s just a matter of getting Finland to adhere.

  • Herkku

    … well crafted and complete, except when they don’t work. Do you remember the Bank of America or the VA identity leaks?

  • Kristian

    well crafted and complete, except when they don’t work.

    I think you misread my comment in #66. I realize that America’s protections are weak. I’m saying that the EU’s laws are well crafted and complete. But Finland needs to comply with them.

  • tim73

    Herkku: Google adwords I have find quite useful for advertising.

  • http://www.axis-of-aevil.net/ hfb

    Does Nokia even have R&D anymore? Last I knew they pretty much raped NRC down to the nubbins since it was really more about pimping NRC to various divisions rather than giving the engineers the time and freedom to really do worthwhile research.

  • Freeridin’ Franklin

    hfb:
    Does Nokia even have R&D anymore? Last I knew they pretty much raped NRC down to the nubbins since it was really more about pimping NRC to various divisions…

    Most likely due to the management’s “entrepreneurial spirit”.

    Can’t have them hippie engineers sitting on their asses, spinning the propellers on their heads all day, can you? There’s money to be made!

  • The Jester

    Yes. Nokia has R&D. I know because I work there. And we’ve got plenty of funding and we are doing plenty of worthwhile research.

  • The Jester

    And our research ends up being worth a lot which is why they pump a lot of money into us. Anybody saying we’re not funded is full of shit.

  • Anonymous

    hfb full of shit? Noooo…

  • David

    Herkku: There are a few european-based online payment systems. I can’t recall the one based in Germany, but WorldPay is from UK and backed by The Royal Bank of Scotland Group: http://www.worldpay.com. Since I never used it as a merchant, you may want to do some more research into its background (online and offline references.)

  • Herkku

    Thanks david! If you remember the german one, let me know…

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