Illegal police searches in Finland?
@ 6:06 pm 
Before we discuss illegal police searches, here’s an interesting side note to introduce the topic: In Finland, the Names Act limits parents’ choices in naming their offspring; only names with historical and ethnic relevance are accepted as valid entries. In this case, parents were denied their preference, so they sued in the The European Court of Human Rights and won…
The European Court of Human Rights has delivered a judgement on a violation of Article 8 (the right to respect for private and family life) of the European Convention on Human rights, following the refusal of the Finnish authorities to register the forename Axl Mick for the applicants’ son.
I assume this is an amalgam of the names Axl Rose and Mick Jagger. But only the parents know for sure.
Whereas the Names Act has been eased somewhat since 1999 when this case was first brought to The Court, there might be reason to believe that Finland is in conflict with Article 8 on another, perhaps more serious ground. Therefore, I would like to direct your attention to Article 8 of The European Convention on Human Rights, to which Finland is a signatory:
ARTICLE 8
1. Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence.
2. There shall be no interference by a public authority with the exercise of this right except such as is in accordance with the law and is necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security, public safety or the economic well-being of the country, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.
Imagine that you are stopped for suspicion of speeding, and the police demand to follow you home and rifle-through your personal files and data. Then, everything from pay records to investment and bank statements are used for determining the amount your fine should be.
In the United States, this would be considered “Illegal Search and Seizure” by police. The right to privacy is guaranteed by the Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution, which reads:
Fourth Amendment
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Obviously, Finland is not the United States, so its residents can’t benefit from Fourth Amendment protections. But Finland did sign the aforementioned European Convention of Human Rights, which guarantees everyone “the right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence. There shall be no interference by a public authority with the exercise of this right…”
The wording of Article 8 seems remarkably similar to the Fourth Amendment and is apparently meant to span an even broader range of circumstances. After all, The European Court of Human Rights determined that the naming of a person’s child is covered under Article 8’s definition. So, perhaps it is no big stretch to assume that a person’s personal financial data is also covered.
But that’s not all. Let’s consider that Article 8 of the the European Convention of Human Rights is grounded in Article 12 of the United Nations’ Universal Declaration of Human Rights, to which Finland is also a signatory. It reads:
Article 12
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.
Of course, for the most part, this “interference with privacy” in Finland is done electronically; not via paper correspondence. Nonetheless, it’s an invasion of privacy. And in my opinion, the practice breaches both, Articles 8 & 12 of their respective conventions. It will be interesting to see if the newly elected Parliament addresses this impropriety or whether it’s yet another matter that needs to be tested by The European Court of Human Rights.
After all, if you’re an educated and talented professional who is considering a move to Finland, wouldn’t you expect to receive all the human rights protections granted to you by the European Union and United Nations?
And on a more personal level, would you want your private financial details closely examined by the average traffic cop? For a speeding ticket?
If you are interested in further reading, here is an excellent reference on this topic and more.
Its all on the internet anyway. So if cops have access, they can go get your records. No breaking and entry needed.
Comment by winter “Yea, Proton Power, now in remission†— Wed, Sep 12th, 2007 @ 7:22 pm
Yeah, check my finances out and give me a fine. Public information.
Yeah our President was an agent for Stasi and most likely The KGB (thanks aamulehti, she even signed docs while she wasn’t there) but t´his isn’t important enough to be public. “To the back of the sauna with her” I hear war veterans say…………. TREASON
Comment by Punter — Wed, Sep 12th, 2007 @ 9:26 pm
Actually, why is it the cops job? Shouldn’t the court first convict you of speeding?
Comment by Fred Fry — Wed, Sep 12th, 2007 @ 9:26 pm
Fred, much the same as elsewhere upto a certain limit (in this case between 20-30 km/h above limit) it’s an on the spot fine. Of course you can challenge it in a court if you wish but it becomes even more expensive then if found guilty.
How do you like our President though?
Comment by Punter — Wed, Sep 12th, 2007 @ 9:34 pm
That’s a good question Fred. It seems all-too-easy, doesn’t it?
For that matter, the whole system should be evaluated to see if it conforms with the EU’s and UN’s articles pertaining to discrimination—in this case, discrimination based on income. In my opinion, it wouldn’t be difficult to prove that Finland’s actions don’t conform with the treaties it signed.
By the way, you mentioned possibly starting a business in Finland. Would this type of legal environment affect your decision?
Comment by Kristian — Wed, Sep 12th, 2007 @ 9:40 pm
Kristian:
Finn’s shouldn’t necessarily envy our Fourth Amendment to the US Constitution. In the last six years, protection afforded under the Fourth Amendment has been seriously curtailed here in the US in part because of the US Patriot Act, which essentially allows the Government to listen to the phone calls and read e-mails of citizens without a warrent. Since there is absolutely no oversight over this program, we have no idea how far the government has really gone into the invasion of civil liberites. Recently, it was disclosed that the friends and relatives of anyone remotely suspected of having terrorist ties have incurred the same invasion.
Additionally, the appointment of very conservative judges to the federal bench has insured that the Fourth Amendment has been further eroded by judges who very narrowly read that provision. For instance, the Supreme Court has decided that if a policeman stops you for any traffic viloation, even a broken tail light, that this gives police the right to search your car and even bring a drug dog to the scene, even if there is absolutely no reason to think that you have violated anything than a minor traffic law.
So, even though our current President says that the terrorists hate us because of our freedom, he is doing his level best to make sure that the terrorists no longer have to hate us for that reason.
Big brother is watching, here, and frankly, it gives me the creeps.
Comment by Nipsu — Wed, Sep 12th, 2007 @ 9:41 pm
Winter, what you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this blog is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
Now. I believe that your personal data (phone #, age, blood type, income, etc.) should not be out there for your neighbors. However, I support fining someone according to their income. It is correct and appropriate, and does not burden the poor. So, let’s give everyone the right to make their data private, much like a phone number. The cops should still have access to it.
Comment by Herkku — Wed, Sep 12th, 2007 @ 9:53 pm
Herkku, may I suggest you read your own posts more carefully. How can you say you support personal data being private (phone #, age, blood type, INCOME, etc) then a sec later ramble on to say “the cops should still have access to it?” My god. Think about it. How is it private if the cops have access to it? Duh…………
Comment by Punter — Wed, Sep 12th, 2007 @ 10:19 pm
Nipsu—good points about breaches of the Fourth Amendment. It seems that in both cases (the US’s and EU’s) laws exist to protect its residents. But in both cases the laws are being broken by governments.Of course, most EU countries adhere to the EU’s and UN’s conventions concerning this matter. Obviously, that’s no consolation if you live in Finland.
Herkku—fair point. But will the police then be specially trained in handling people’s sensitive financial data? And who will be held responsible when your personal income and wealth details finds themselves on web servers in, say, Uganda? Which cop leaked the information?
It’s fine of course to voice reasonings concerning our perceived sense of fairness, etc, but in my opinion, the big question here is whether Finland adheres in good faith to the treaties it signed. Why sign a contract if you knowingly plan to ignore its stipulations?
Comment by Kristian — Wed, Sep 12th, 2007 @ 10:24 pm
#9-”Why sign a contract if you knowingly plan to ignore its stipulations?”
Much like kyoto? That’s the problem with that too……..
Comment by Punter — Wed, Sep 12th, 2007 @ 11:06 pm
Am I the only one who didn’t manage to find anything about the illegal searches in Kristian’s whining post???
Comment by Cunter — Wed, Sep 12th, 2007 @ 11:27 pm
11, you need better eye glasses or read test. I dont write so well so maybe I need write test. Sorry but english is not my best language.
The giving to much power to police is problem in Finland. We alwasy think better to give someone else strong hand. Police can know everything, because it is “the police”. This needs to change, but how?
I don’t like that salary is for everyone to inspect. Many other Finns know it is wrong.
Comment by Tapio — Thu, Sep 13th, 2007 @ 1:00 am
Look, calm down, I am just quoting the Scott McNealy chairman, president and chief executive officer of Sun Microsystems Inc., who said
“You have no privacy, get over it.”
geeeeeeee
Comment by winter “Yea, Proton Power, now in remission†— Thu, Sep 13th, 2007 @ 1:21 am
So the point is a society is not free unless you can name your kid playstation 3 and rich people don’t have to abide to traffic laws (because in a flat system the fine is the meaningless to them)?
Damn we got serious problems.
Comment by philtard — Thu, Sep 13th, 2007 @ 5:48 am
I got a speeding ticket yesterday. I found it very convenient that the police could immediately see my income. Otherwise I would now face a annoying amount of paperwork finding out what my income is and then reporting it back to the police. So I was saved of additional punishment of forced labour
Comment by T — Thu, Sep 13th, 2007 @ 1:50 pm
Herkku - since Finnish tax info is online (thanks to Kristian and friends who widely publicised the fact and even nicely provided the BitTorrent links), winter is right that the police has what everyone else can access to.
Kristian - I have never really seen the tax data, so I can’t say what tax info is available. But I would assume it contains only the detail of physical address, taxable income, and tax. While it’s a lot of info, it couldn’t possibly enumerate the wealth a person possesses. Taken from your own idea of the wealthy poor - the people who exercise tax-avoidance, those people would not have appeared to be wealthier than a toilet cleaner. As for police required to learn how to handle the “sensitive” income info, my numerous posts in the past have pointed it out: Since anyone, including police, can tell a Finland taxable person’s taxable income of certain year, whether there is training or not (what exactly are those trainings? Care to elaborate?) cannot change the fact that the data is already available to the public before and afterwards. Given all these, it’s a long stretch calling Finnish police owing excessive power (it was not them who put the data out.)
Just curious, as someone who claims publicising tax data is bad yet seems to have intimate knowledge with its content, have you ever had the said data in your possession? If you haven’t seen it, or merely heard about it, then at best your claims are merely speculative as mine, and wouldn’t be more substantially more important.
Tapio - Police only has as much force as you (collectively) grant them. Besides the duty they perform, the policemen are mere people. The most common measure in a democratic country is to pass a law that prevents and punishes the unlawful conducts of the police, and to check it regularly.
philtard - While the post can be summarised to “Tax tax tax tax tax. Blah blah blah. Tax tax tax tax. Blah blah blah. Tax tax tax… Tax! Tax? Tax!!” It’s far better than: “Me me me me me. Me! me? Me! Me me me.” Freedom of speech is a good thing, even if some speech gets tedious.
Comment by David — Thu, Sep 13th, 2007 @ 2:07 pm
Nipsu,
Nobody, including the Government is interested in what you say in an email. The Government does not have unlimites resources and needs to direct them where they are needed most. All of that communication is moving into and out of the US and has been validly argued that a warrant is not required, just as no warrent is required to search incoming mail or even incoming travelers be Customs. Is your right to privacy invaded when you are questioned and searched by US Customs coming into the Country? Maybe, but they have the right to do so. So why is your phone conversation to Finland any different?
Not for anything, but if they are listening, what good is it? You still need to be breaking the law for them to get you.
—–
“…but the work permit system is still mired in red tape, partly because of trade union opposition. Foreign students in Finland and asylum seekers struggle to win the right to work, though the government is now trying to encourage students to stay on.”
- I was told that as a student I was expected to leave once I finished my studies. This despite the part of the law allowing me to apply for a change of status within Finland provided that I entered the country legally. I was told that I could not apply to change the status of my student visa and had to apply from the US if I wanted to work after school. On the good side, I have dug up all the relevant legislation for three other Americans to change their status without having to leave. I can also give the Finnish Consulate in New York lots of credit as they turned around my work permit application in just about a week. Funny thing is, the two weeks I spent in the US was spent working there/here.
Comment by Fred Fry — Thu, Sep 13th, 2007 @ 2:45 pm
Punter:
How is it private if the cops have access to it? Duh…………
According to your infallible logic, the Tiitinen list is thus public information as the cops (Supo) have access to it. I rest my case.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Thu, Sep 13th, 2007 @ 8:42 pm
Fred Fry:
Is your right to privacy invaded when you are questioned and searched by US Customs coming into the Country? Maybe, but they have the right to do so. So why is your phone conversation to Finland any different?
Clearly you’ve spent quite some time in Finland. That alone can explain such blind trust in the government, as we’ve learned from this blog that it is a uniquely Finnish trait.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Thu, Sep 13th, 2007 @ 9:59 pm
I can see you’ve never studied law Franklin………
Comment by Punter — Thu, Sep 13th, 2007 @ 10:37 pm
Got me there, Punter. So tell me, is the list public information or not? If your tax records were only accessible to the authorities, would they be public? Would you allow tax authorities access to them or would that also violate your precious privacy?
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Thu, Sep 13th, 2007 @ 10:48 pm
Freeridim’ Franklin:
Sorry it has taken me so long to reply…time difference, you know.
The “you have nothing to worry about if you are not doing anything wrong” argument is one that is always made by people who do not mind a dimunition of civil lilberties, but it falls flat. I personally don’t want the government to read my e-mail, especially when half my e-mail consists of me bitterly complaining about our current administration. And, when the executive branch has the power to literally use rendition on their own citizens, i.e., Jose Padilla, then their actions have a real big chilling effect on my right to free speech.
As much as I have complained about the loss of our civil liberties and totaliarian nature of this administration, if I never come back on these boards, then you can rest assured that the CIA had nabbed me and put me in a gulog in North Dakota.
Oh, and by the way, I would WAY rather clear customs in most countries in Europe than in the US. Who here has flown into New York from Europe lately? It feels distintly Soviet.
Comment by Nipsu — Thu, Sep 13th, 2007 @ 11:14 pm
Sorry it has taken me so long to reply…time difference, you know.
I wasn’t aware that I was expecting a reply from you.
Have I missed something?
Who here has flown into New York from Europe lately? It feels distintly Soviet.
I did in March. Of course filling those funny papers has a Soviet feel to it, right down to the paper quality and yes, they make you jump through all kinds of hoops but all in all it didn’t take too long and wasn’t too much of an inconvenience. I guess that being a brainwashed Finn who is used to queuing helps.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Thu, Sep 13th, 2007 @ 11:25 pm
Well if you see a rubber glove on one hand, you’d better close your eyes and imagine a safe place.
Comment by Wha? — Fri, Sep 14th, 2007 @ 4:10 am
My parents had to register my name in Uzbekistan. I think it’s wrong.
Comment by Anusaukko — Fri, Sep 14th, 2007 @ 8:54 am
There is no comparison between “THE LIST” (with your President’s name on it) and tax information being public. “THE LIST” is afely and securely locked away and although a handful of people have seen it, we, Joe Citizen has no right or opportunity to view it or know the contents. Our tax infor on the other hand is accessible to all and even shoved down our faces in newspapers. Quite differnet indeed.
BTW, a service where by you could send an SMS to 16400 STASI and get the names would probably be a great idea. Employers could check that rather than how much one earnt previously or whether or not one enjoys a casual joint. I think the list would be a far better reflection of ones character.
Comment by Punter — Fri, Sep 14th, 2007 @ 8:56 am
Me too. If I ever get laid I’m gonna name my kid whatever I want, like Persrekä jr or Appoavoin Majava. Or Leif Segerstam.
Comment by Persreikä — Fri, Sep 14th, 2007 @ 9:00 am
Metoothinks that we should trust the Germans on this one. Hell, I’d trust a German over a Finn any day - or the “highest court” of this excuse for a country or its ridiculous “ombudsmen” or whatever. Furthermore, I think that everyfuckingbody on the list should be stoned right away without embarrassing “oikeudenkäyntis”.
Why not have Punters, Phils and hfbs and the like to run the country anyways? I mean, I don’t recall any issue on which they would not have had a superior opinion compared to jacobsödermans of this land - who I think should be stoned too.
Comment by Anusmous — Fri, Sep 14th, 2007 @ 9:19 am
Clearly you’ve spent quite some time in Finland. That alone can explain such blind trust in the government
Metoothinks that a country in which the education system sucks, almost nobody follows the international media and the majority thinks that Saddam Hussein blew up the twin towers should be bombed to stone age. Nuke Finland!
Comment by Anusmous — Fri, Sep 14th, 2007 @ 9:51 am
Couldnt find anywhere to post this but lol
http://www.theonion.com/content/video/students_first_in_line_program_to
Comment by Heyhey — Fri, Sep 14th, 2007 @ 6:33 pm
“If your tax records were only accessible to the authorities, would they be public? Would you allow tax authorities access to them or would that also violate your precious privacy?”
In most countries, tax authorities have a fiduciary responsibly to the public they ’serve.’ The same way doctors cannot divulge your medical history or a government agency can’t publicize your sexual preference (assuming they can collect that info in the first place), the tax authorities of all modern countries are also sworn to secrecy. It’s a very serious legal issue with consequences for breaches of conduct.
Incidentally, aside from the EU and UN human rights treaties mentioned above, Finland has signed tax treaties with other countries such as the US, Australia and others. Those treaties also stipulate secrecy of tax information. I have the feeling that Finland’s conduct regarding those treaties should also be tested in court.
I (or Sirkuspelle) will write a post about that in the near future.
One thing I like about this blog and its many commentors is that it gets noticed by people around the world who search the web. And I assume this topic would be most interesting to professionals thinking about doing business and investing in Finland. It gives them a clearer picture of what’s going on based on experiences of people who live or have lived in Finland.
Isn’t a clearer picture what you would want if standing in their shoes?
Comment by Kristian — Fri, Sep 14th, 2007 @ 11:32 pm
You people are really hurting your own case by lumping income-based speeding tickets (actually all fines, including pot smoking and indecent exposure) and public tax records. They are in no way connected. Do y’all think that the cops use Fonecta’s service to retrieve your tax information when writing a ticket? Ever heard of VIRVE?
Those foreign investors who are basing their decision of moving to Finland on this blog (:lol:) would probably like the fact that they and their children are less likely to be run over in this country.
My income would guarantee a pretty nasty ticket. I solve this by driving according to the speed limit. It hasn’t killed me yet.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Sat, Sep 15th, 2007 @ 1:34 pm
“Incidentally, aside from the EU and UN human rights treaties mentioned above, Finland has signed tax treaties with other countries such as the US, Australia and others.”
Kristian, I’m on your side. If Finland wants to be in the EU and have a voice in the UN, hthen it should follow the rules it agreed to. I don’t want my information shown to everyone. No way.
Comment by acorn — Sun, Sep 16th, 2007 @ 1:35 am
Maybe you should consider the very fact that in US, personal credit report can be purchased from 3 big (private) credit record companies: Equifax, Experian and Trans Union, with valid reasons. But let’s see what is available in the report:
“A credit report includes information on where you live, how you pay your bills, and whether you’ve been sued, arrested, or filed for bankruptcy. Nationwide consumer reporting companies sell the information in your report to creditors, insurers, employers, and other businesses that use it to evaluate your applications for credit, insurance, employment, or renting a home.”
http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/credit/freereports.shtm
I don’t know if it includes the income information, although I would suspect there will be some sort of indication (otherwise why bother checking for affordability.) So there you go, you can get pretty much the same info in US as well.
Is it effective that tax officials are asked to swear to secrecy? Firstly I doubt that is ever effective (or even asked. It’s not FBI, CIA, or NSA.) The protection of tax information is confidentiality, not secrecy. US tax revenue service is allowed to disclose tax info to courts or to a person with a valid search warrant. Secondly, it only takes one leak for your info to go around the world, then all the hyped-up secrecy becomes useless.
As I have said before, security of financial (or any privileged) info is related to, but not the same with privacy. Different approaches are required to manage each effectively.
Finally, there is no good reason for filing this tax saga under the subject of naming right to one’s child. But we know this never stopped Kristian before.
Comment by David — Mon, Sep 17th, 2007 @ 4:33 pm
David: “So there you go, you can get pretty much the same info in US as well.”
Oh? You’ve researched this? Apparently not. You forgot to mention that to get someone’s credit report in the US, you need their signature on paper. Not just “valid reasons” as you state. Here is the law:
Comment by Kristian — Mon, Sep 17th, 2007 @ 7:38 pm
#35: Nowhere does your list say that a written consent is required in all cases. It seems that buying a can of soda with a credit card is a sufficient reason. It seems that the breach on privacy is several orders of magnitude worse in the Land of Freedom. Of course, it’s all private so it’s good.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Mon, Sep 17th, 2007 @ 9:34 pm
“It seems that buying a can of soda with a credit card is a sufficient reason.”
Not with a credit card. But if you request credit directly from the soda vendor, then the credit application form will most likely grant the vendor access to your credit information.
“It seems that the breach on privacy is several orders of magnitude worse in the Land of Freedom.”
Interestingly, the European Union has much better Data Protection laws than the US. We just want to make sure that Finland abides by those laws.
Comment by Kristian — Mon, Sep 17th, 2007 @ 9:53 pm
Interestingly, the European Union has much better Data Protection laws than the US.
Does Sirkuspelle campaign against the far worse infringement of privacy in the US?
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Tue, Sep 18th, 2007 @ 2:08 pm
#35. How do the following two from your list sound? “In connection with a valuation of, or an assessment of the credit or prepayment risks as associated with an existing credit obligation” and “In connection with a legitimate business need relating to a business transaction initiated by the consumer” The original article I quoted from, mentioned ‘renting a house.’ So renting a place could put your info in your landlord’s hands - practically handing it over before the transaction is done.
(Come to think of it, credit-check is often, if not usually, done before transaction. Yet, in the case the transaction is declined, I can’t see how the law would be able to restrict the use of the gained knowledge in rentee’s financial status - maybe until there are drugs to erase a particular part of memory?)
Speaking of EU’s data protection and security checks, UK’s National Health Service (NHS) lately found out that some of its old hard-drives were on eBay, which happens from time to time. The only issue was that all the patient history and info were still on them. The hard-drives WERE supposed to be securely wiped clean before resale, by law. However, one single missing step, the info is leaked. Unlike your address or salary info, one can’t change one’s medical history. Unless, one never gets sick.
Comment by David — Thu, Sep 20th, 2007 @ 2:45 pm
David: “I can’t see how the law would be able to restrict the use of the gained knowledge in rentee’s financial status - maybe until there are drugs to erase a particular part of memory?)”
I’m sure drugs wouldn’t be necessary to erase that memory
But if the landlord you mentioned discloses your information to another person without your consent—or posts your information on the Internet—then you can sue for damages.
Let’s clarify what is on your credit report:
For someone access your credit report, they must first get your written consent. And there is NO information on the report about your employment income, investment income or values of investments.
Comment by Kristian — Thu, Sep 20th, 2007 @ 6:50 pm
payment information, timeliness
Oh yes, your propeller swooped over this quite carelessly, so let’s look at it in detail:
“Next is a listing of the persons personal credit information including credit account numbers, the creditors name, the amount of last payment, the credit limit of the account and the timeliness of monthly payments.”
Personally I regard this information far more personal and more relevant from a business perspective than what I made two years ago.
For someone access your credit report, they must first get your written consent
Which you are essentially forced to give every time you buy something. Of course, it’s all “voluntary”.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Fri, Sep 21st, 2007 @ 7:18 pm
By the way, from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_history
“A credit bureau may sell a person’s contact information to an advertiser purchasing a list of people with similar characteristics, like homeowners with excellent credit.”
So, no disclosing the information to third parties, now?
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Fri, Sep 21st, 2007 @ 7:20 pm
Buy eve online isk, eve online isk
Comment by eve online isk — Fri, Oct 19th, 2007 @ 12:51 pm