Ei enää pussikaljaa illallah.

Well, the French have figured them out, and the German’s just had a rude wake up call

“The Germans are searching for at least 10 more suspects in the terror plot against Frankfurt Airport and Ramstein Air Base.”

So when do you Finns learn the truth? Or do we continue to see you support the thugs and killers, like you are doing a Human Shields in Lebanon.

Somebody had a good point that the Finnish IKL party (nationalist)
was broken up back in the 1930es even though it had 20 representatives
and vast support from the people. I think the same standard should be
applied here. Muslim party would clearly have treasonous aims in the long run (trying to replace constituion with Sharia etc.)..

I would not have had problem with the idea before 9/11, but after 9/11 NO WAY!

Can’t wait to see them standing on your street corners, with a stick, hitting ladies for not being covered up.

And these are the folks you all support.

Gee

Finland is now unfortunately starting to see and experience the disturbing developments that are observable in Sweden,Norway and Denmark….People out side of the culture of Finland,are getting ready to change the Finnish way of life,piece by piece..
Take away the alchohol,and pork sausage they demand!…And then more and more demands to force their beliefs on the ill-informed Finns.
It is time for Finns to defend their culture,or suffer the fate of the countries west of Finland

Yes,, but when will Finland wake up?

This global jehad is against all the west, and you can’t sit in your little Sauna and wish it to go away. Wish I could say that white flaggie thingie.

Just try to take away Finnish booze…I do not see that happening
anytime soon.There will be a lot of RESISTANCE by angry Finns…

Bah, they will probably be as popular as the yoga flyers party. The bunch they showed in the news looked more like the Oil Sheikh of Nilsiä.

What we need here in Finland is a good old fashioned theocracy with stonings, honor killings and public floggings.

Being a true Finn,I will not submit to people with bad belief systems..

People out side of the culture of Finland,are getting ready to change the Finnish way of life,piece by piece..

Finns and American neoconservatives have that in common, they both really fear cultural change and diversity.

I don’t think that either the Muslims or Christians should have their own political parties. Religion in politics = very no. Too bad we humans have a hard time learning from past history.

Good luck on that banning alcohol from stores thing.

Just where in Helsinki should you have the new public beheadings?

Is there a central square? Or do you do it on Fridays by the train station?

Good luck on that banning alcohol from stores thing.

Where else are we gonna get alcohol from?? Shops? They want to ban stores, but not shops, so we’re okay!

Phil you are right!

Hay, I am all for change and diversity. Lets let them have their “religion of peace” in the way they want. Heck with Finnish customs or traditions, that all goes out the door.

Does anyone see opportunity here? I do.

I could set up a shop selling, long sticks -for the caning, and long curved blades for the chopping block. Even better will be a line of designer burkas for your wives to wear.

Phil, I can offer you a free Purple one? get some publicity, if your girl wears it around.

And winter

Oops. #17 should have been…

And winter can buy you the ticket here to be the very first head on the block. As a matter of fact I’m sure we could raise the funds from donations made from readers here. First donation €100 care of me.

Just in case anyone is interested in the truth regarding this, take it from people who know them. I am a Muslim and know each of these individuals shown in the picture.Before any one starts to freak out, please be aware that this is a group of about 10-15 Finns (and not over two dozen) who are almost all between the ages of 20-25. All of them are converts–with a large number of them only embracing Islam three or four years ago.

To the best of my knowledge, they did not consult with any of the Mosques or Muslim associations in Helsinki, they have virtually no support in the broader Muslim community, and most important of all, they have no idea how to successfully participate in the political process.

Despite what some here would be led to believe, the Muslims in Finland are for the most part, very apathetic when compared to some of the Muslims in other parts of Europe. Ask yourself why none of the other Muslims that have run for office and are currently serving have suggested such ridiculous ideas as removing alcohol from stores. The reason why is because, unlike these youth, they are focusing on the real concerns.

Yes, in our religion alcohol is forbidden, as is pork etc, but that is not a mandate for us to force that on a non-Muslim–especially if we are living in a non Muslim country.

Most Muslims I know would much rather support a non-Muslim political party that is for the common good of everyone, than support a small group of kids that have zero political awareness.

but, but, these are the guys you all support.

I just see opportunity on your new path forward.

think out of the box here guys. Put a burka on your gal, and she is protected from all those other guys. She is yours for life.

Rimi

Nothing against you, or Muslims, BUT

Who is taking the case against the one’s who want to change the west, to make it like their home countries?

None that I see.

Same for 9/11. Just celebrations in Muslim countries. Again, no vocal critics against what these guys say and do. Just look at Palistian TV for some good taste of whats comming.

Yes, I was expecting that you would say something like that. I could discuss with you, but I think that you have probably already made your mind up about things.

If that is not the case, please let me know, otherwise, have a good evening.

p.s.

These guys are all Finns (except for the one in charge, who is a Finn/Estonian)

It really makes me want to laugh when I see the recent “coverts” to Islam. And they seem to be mostly young Finnish women who are 19 or 20, dressed up in the full gear with their Muslim husbands. I can’t help but wonder if it’s some sort of rebellion laced with being incredibly naive.

It sounds terrible but I honestly have to suppress my laughter every time I see these women practically wearing a full veil walking around downtown Helsinki. I seriously wonder if they will think it is as “cool” once the novelty wears off. I mean, how can you be so stupid as to grow up in a free society that values women and voluntarily give up your rights and move back in time. It boggles my mind.

#19 you make some good points that I agree with…

This is whats comming when you get the rights in a public school.

“Muslim Student Association is doing on American campuses, in a video apparently shot by an MSA member at the University of Texas at San Antonio using the name “dawahworks.”

The title of the video is: The Missing Hijab 2 & the Jew.

You’re not going to believe this, as he thuggishly harasses a female Muslim student to explain why she isn’t wearing the hijab, and justifies forcing it on all women with quotes from the Koran.

And it gets worse, when he moves on to a Jewish student. The sense of menace and evil intent is almost palpable.”

to “tolerate” the political activism of the MSA, the university must simultaneously allow for “hatred” against women and Jews

found the link here:

tolerate

So, some one tell us the truth here.

Rimi – Are you a Finnish convert?

No Phil, im not Finnish.

What’s your personal opinions on these guys starting a Muslim party?

I thought that my opinion on that was obvious from my first comment. Any Muslim that wants to bring benefits to the Muslim community is better off working with other non muslim parties that share a similar outlook. That isnt all that easy, but its done every election year.

Well the Finnish Christians have their own party, why not Finnish Muslims?

‘bring benefits to the Muslim community”?

Huh? You need a road named after someone?

Why does everyone want to pick the pockets of thy neighbor? I just don’t get the rush to take, and not give.

@31: Imho they absolutely should have their own party, it’s important that people (especially people like these, with extreme views) have the possibility to express themselves politically. That’s democracy. Ban them and they’ll find another way of making themselves heard.

The firmament is not going to crash upon us. Finland is _not_ going to be turned into a Muslim state anytime soon. People stop being so goddamn scared.

#33- Personally I would be more scared of any political party set up by Winter and his drunken sailor friends. I agree, a democratic outlet for people to express their views is far better than having them pushed aside and operating in secret. As members of society thy have the same right as any of us to express their views legally. It’s up to us to consider these views and vote accordingly. Ah the wonders of democracy.
As for winter, ever wonder what the ladies are wearing under the hijab?
#23- I don’t think by putting on a veil or hijab that these women are walking back in time. In fact one opinion is that it is very liberating for them to dress that way. Not feeling a need to present themselves or being based on their beauty as we see it. The need for make up and hair colors, bikinies and and a 6 pack just to be “accepted” by modern culture. I mean afterall, even Nuns are covered pretty much head to toe but nobody finds that offensive or backward.

I’ve often wondered what attracts people in forbidding religions. It’s not only the strict muslims with their burkhas. There are some christian sects, too, where the members voluntarily give up a lot of their life options.

The best explanation I’ve come up with is that there must be some deep wish, even deeper than the wish to be free, to have somebody else to be stronger than the person himself. That creates a situation where the person doesn’t have to answer life’s call, because somebody stronger is forbidding the person to choose one option from another. A kind of liberating mental singularity.

Many people attracted to these situations seem to be persons who cannot tolerate being by themselves any length of time and at the same time show no leadership qualities. They seem to thrive on small, tight groups under a strict leader. That is, they seem to prefer a lifestyle where no complex social skills are needed. Maybe life seems such an unpromising drag for them that they prefer the simplicity of following tight orders, and do not feel like they are giving up anything particularly valuable.

If that is the case, then it is understandable that during fast social changes, in connection to either increase or decrease of wealth, people are attracted to a forbidding religion. It also makes understandable that a forbidding religion is attractive for somebody feeling rootless, detached or otherwise unduly unappreciated.

Knowing these individuals personally, to say that they are “extreme” is a stretch (unless of course, you consider Muslims to be a big bad monolith). Muslims have a right to have their own party if they like, just as any other ethnic group. What they dont have a right to do is seek to impose Islamic regulations on the rest of the society.

A viable Muslim party or candidate (which is not to be found in these guys, trust me) would ideally seek to pass laws that affect no one but the Muslims such as:

1. Making the choice of circumcision for baby boys after birth (similar to the states),instead of waiting till they are older (and shelling out 1000 Euros or more)
2. Adjusting the regulations that would make it easier to acquire meat that is Islamically prepared (similar to kosher)

1. Making the choice of circumcision for baby boys after birth (similar to the states),instead of waiting till they are older (and shelling out 1000 Euros or more)

This does potentially affect non-Muslims. How do you know the child will not reject Islam later in life when he or she is capable of making his/her own decisions. That, and it is a disgusting mutilation of a baby’s body, which would probably be the mainstream Finnish societal view. Therefore, it is not compatible with Finnish values and ethics.

You cant have your cake and eat it too. You cant be a cultural or moral absolutist when it suits your preconceived notions and beliefs, while at the same time seeking shelter in moral relativism when it suits you.

And just so you know, circumcision is not illegal here (parents taking their sons at a later date). So much for your assertion that it is not compatible with Finnish values and ethics.

I’m not in favor of circumcision. It means you have to use a hollowed-out potato to masturbate. Or maybe Muslims (and Americans) use something else?

The “Modoggie cartoon flap” in Sweden raises questions about who is indeed tolerant…Now it seems that Sweden is bowing down,after stating its belief in freedom of the press…whats up with that!?

tolerance or intolerance seems so subjective these days…

Lars Vilks the “Modoggie artist” seems to have stirred up things a bit in Sweden…..developing….Friday will prove interesting…

@36: Anyone taking a political stand based on (any) religion as opposed to common sense is ‘extreme’ in my book.

Sry #43 was mine.

I agree with you infinndel, it is quite ridiculous that Reinfeldt is receiving these ambassadors tomorrow. The Swedish government should just not make any comment at all on the matter to show that freedom of expression is just that and that the Swedish government has nothing to do with what the Swedish press wish to print yet alone the ability to apologise for any offence they cause.

And just so you know, circumcision is not illegal here (parents taking their sons at a later date). So much for your assertion that it is not compatible with Finnish values and ethics.
I am more than aware of that. I remember an Sfp politician calling for it to be made illegal a few years ago. It certainly is not accepted by many people to be carried out on newly born babies and of course it is right that it is not available under the usual public health system.

Phil:

“Finns and American neoconservatives have that in common, they both really fear cultural change and diversity.”

Neoconservatives fear diversity? Are we talking about the same “invade the world, invite the world” crowd?

If those guys are capable of gathering 5000 names necessary to have their party registered, and that’s a big if, the existence of the party will have mostly positive consequences. It will be a huge blow to Suvaitsevaisto (=extreme multiculturalists & leftists etc.) as the agenda of the Islamic party will come under public scrutiny just the same as that of any political party. The deeply contradictory nature of how Suvaitsevaisto thinks will become patently obvious as the Islamic party goes on record about their views on other pet causes of Suvaitsevaisto such as the rights of homosexuals and women. Criticism of Islam and Sharia law and it’s barbarity will become more acceptable because they will be part of a political agenda.

“Knowing these individuals personally, to say that they are “extreme” is a stretch…”

I consider anyone who wants Sharia law, to be extreme. Abdullah Tammi definitely qualifies.

Finns and American neoconservatives have that in common, they both really fear cultural change and diversity.

And, heh, as it turns out these Muslims are all Finnish converts, brave men who faced their fears, apparently.

But if you want to know what Euro- and Islamophobia really looks like read Mark Steyn’s “America Alone”. That kind of hate mongering agains the US or Muslims wouldn’t be best seller in Europe. Only in America. But then again, Steyn is a Canadian US convert. They all hate, fear and loath everybody else. Obviously. Just like Finns.

Steyn is more dangerous than Osama, by the way.

Neoconservatives fear diversity? Are we talking about the same “invade the world, invite the world” crowd?

The neo-cons aren’t into “inviting” anyone. Remember, the United States is full to the brim, no more room. Just visit West Virginia and you’ll see, it’s shoulder-to-shoulder out there.

Circumcision (male or female) is barbaric, and if any lawmaker would encourage its practice he should be put in prison for incitement to violence against children.

Has anyone seen the Penn and Teller Bullshit TV program about circumcision? It is horrific.

I’m circumcised and I could not believe the torturous process I went through as a newborn.

Fu-uck!

That being said, I do not condemn the past or future circumcision of Winter.

Phil:

“The neo-cons aren’t into “inviting” anyone.”

What are you talking about? It’s Bush and the rest of the neocons who’ve been pushing for increasing immigration from Latin America and other parts of the developing world. Karl Rove’s strategy was to capitalize on the supposedly increasing Hispanic vote in the USA. To the dismay of the neocons, their open immigration ideas didn’t go well with mainstream Republicans after all.

It’s paleocons who are most strongly in favor of immigration restrictionism, the enforcement of existing immigration legislation, and isolationism in general. This also includes not meddling with foreign affairs militarily or otherwise.

You’ve got your terminology mixed up.

al-Qa’ida and their likes are the neo cons among the Muslims. When they kill innocents (mostly Muslims) they say that it is collateral damage. When the U.S forces kill innocents, they also say that it is collateral damage. We are all collateral damage.

For a good documentary showing the uncanny similarities between the neo-cons and the salafi jihadists, see “The Power of Nightmares” on google video. There are some inaccuracies, but it doesn’t detract significantly from the value of the film.

Ron Paul 2008!

#55: Actually, they have not been “pushing” for it, they supported amnesty for illegals already in the US. I realize how that might appear to encourage more immigrants, but I think it was more that they were pandering to their big corporate donors that need the cheap labor.

About the latin vote, those illegal immigrants do not vote, they are at least 5-7 years away from a ballot box, if they manage to get sponsored/win the green card lottery/get legalized by marriage/have a clear criminal record/pass all the FBI bullshit that I have seen some of my friends have to pass. It is true that a lot of them belong to “mixed” families that have both illegals and legals (the children, usually) but still, working class latinos tend to vote Donkey, the only latinos that overwhelminglys support the right are Cubans, and they have been there forever.
I suppose that Bush Inc. could go for the socially conservative nature of the latino voter, but I believe when their livelihood is affected, even conservative catholics will vote for the big ole D. After all, there have been plenty of god-fearing communists in Latin America and have at times had the full support of the clergy.

Sorry, the previous post was directed as an answer to #54, not #55.
Rimi, btw, I am glad to see someone of your opinions here.

After experiencing for years what has happened in The Netherlands, I can only give Finland one advice. Keep the Muslims out of the country and you will spare yourself some never ending problems that just keep get worse and worse. These guys don’t give up before they haven’t established their own network of autonomous caliphates all over Europe.

Talk about a grand entrance (removing alcohol from grocery stores). Think that will ever happen in Finland?? Geez.

If you support islam part in Finland, then you get what you deserve…you stupid fool ! like France and Germany and all the other stupid eurotrash nations that at one time supported this islamic bullshit. You all will get your in the and. PULLA hu akbar !

Meanwhile back in Sweden…..DRUMROLL please!…
Rheinfeldt is right now bowing down in submission to 20 Muslim Ambassadors…who are demanding changes to Swedish laws to accommodate their intolerance…A dog and pony carnival spectacle is now unfolding…to be laughed at and ridiculed by people that believe in free speech……. Ban nincompoops!

Apparently the ambassadors did not demand a change in Swedish law and he clarified that it wasn’t politicians that made decisions on what is published… I hope he was firm on that to them.
—
From SVT’s website:
Jag har förklarat att vi inte har folkvalda politiker som fattar publiceringsbeslut, sade Reinfeldt. Han sade ocksÃ¥ att inga krav pÃ¥ lagändringar framkommit.

There is actually a detective story – “Ajatolla Veikko” by Staffan Bruun 1995.(who writes in Swedish BTW) of a “Finland in 10 years” where the fundamentalist muslems have taken over Europe…

Vuosi 2004. Muslimit ovat valloittaneet Euroopan. Islamin vihreä lippu liehuu hallintorakennusten katolla Tukholmasta Madridiin. Presidentti Esko Aho tekee kaikkensa, jotta Suomi ei muuttuisi islamilaiseksi tasavallaksi. Vastustaja on kuitenkin täysin ylivoimainen. Onko maan todellinen hallitsija suomelaisten muslimien uskonnollinen johtaja, ajatolla Veikko? Burt Kobbat seuraa järkyttyneenä kapakoiden muuttumista miesten teesalongeiksi ja naisten hunnuttamista. Muslimifundamentalistit aloittavat Helsingissä jihadin, pyhän sodan, minihameita, nakkikioskeja ja diskoja vastaan. Kaikki kynnelle kykenevät pakenevat. Paitsi Burt Kobbat. Hänet on etsintäkuulutettu ajatolla Veikon murhasta.

I wonder where this Anonymous is crying “all Finns are racists”

As a Finn, this makes me laugh. I don’t consider it a threat but I’d love to see the faces of the couple million racist Finns who do see this as a threat.

after supplication…everything is hunky-dory in Sweden..

Behead Those Who says that Suomen Islamistipuolue is bloody Bullshitt!
http://mychristianblood.blogspirit.com/images/medium_5_26_091506_pope_protest.jpg

This blog entry definately attracted some trolls here

19# Rimi:”Muslims in Finland are for the most part, very apathetic when compared to some of the Muslims in other parts of Europe.”

Hi Rimi, being Muslim apathy is no recipe for defending your faith from Islamists and Islamist extremists.

22# Not wanting to respond to Winter’s question about “who are the Muslims confronting the Islamists”.. is puzzling. Because Winter has an opinion about it is reason enough not to discuss or debate it?

Also, while I do agree with much of what you wrote in 19#, I would like to ask where do you stand on criticizing Islam and its prophet?

Are some values and value systems …above reproach, scorn and ridicule?

Are you the bigot that runs Tundra Tabloids? If so, you are not looking for any dialog and I will not waste my time. Anything I say you will construe as Tuqya (a distinct Shia’ doctrine)anyway, so whats the point?

As for Winters comments, who cares? I was speaking on the topic of the blog post.

Have a good evening.

No response to critical questions says more about you than you would care to admit. I rest my case. As for the label of bigotry, (an entirely a false claim) it especially is used by those who are never interested in any meaningful debate, being more a default position to fend of any criticism.

The question still stands though, is your prophet and religion as a value system, …beyond any criticism? Can your prophet’s very dark morality system of the Sharia, as well as very troubling parts of the Sunnah and Hadiths ever be mentioned or critiqued in the light of day, without the questioneer being vilified as a bigot?

Another non answer will be as revealing as the first one.

Above all….CAN THE QUR’AN ITSELF BE CRITIQUED by Muslims and non-Muslims alike?

Who are you to demand that I answer your questions? You are no one. Get off your high horse and realize that no one owes you or your ilk anything.

Be honest and admit that in your warped world view, a good Muslim is either a dead Muslim or an ex Muslim.If you believe otherwise, tell me. Either way, answer me that I am will be glad to answer your questions.

…*and I will be…*

#73- Very well said Rimi. Peace be with you. Keep your chin up and don’t fall to their level.

If your an anti-Sharia, modernist Muslim, then I have no problem with you.

If you are open your religion being criticized like Christians and Jews are concerning their religions…then I have no problem with you.

If you believe that Islam maintains an unnasailble position in a western democracy, whose value system cannot be challenged in any way…than it’s not only me that has a problem with you, but the majority of society as well.

#76 “If you are open your religion being criticized like Christians and Jews are concerning their religions…then I have no problem with you.”

I think you’ll find radical or fundamentalists in both of these religions are as equally closed to criticism as just about anyone else.

Baloney…but nice try. Seeing that BOTH Christianity and Judaism have had extencive textual criticism to contend with for the better part of over a century or so, while Islam continues to enjoy complete dominence over its texts, speaks for itself.

What Islamic scholar do you know of, that takes the Muslim tests to task as aggressively as the west takes the other two faiths?

Let me know how many gay Mohameds have been painted and statues of MO dipped in urine or made out of dung,…and that the artists still live?

While Christians and Jews have extremists, they pale in comparison to what the Islamic world has to offer us.

I just wrote a long response, but its not showing up. Oh well, Ill check later.

An anti Sharia’ Muslim isn’t a Muslim at all (provided that they know what they are against to be the actual law of God, and they knowingly reject it), so I guess the other option is for them to be a dead Muslim huh?

Do I believe that Islam maintains an unassailable position in a western democracy? What exactly do you mean by that? Are you asking if I believe that Islam is the truth and that other beliefs are false? Of course I believe that, just as any self respecting real Christian or Jew believes the same with respect to their religion.

If you are asking if I believe that Shari’ah should be imposed in non Muslim countries, then all I can advise you is to go easy with the Robert Spencer rhetoric. Despite what you might have been told or read, Abu Qatada, Umar Bakri, Abu Hamza, Zawahiri, Laden, et al do not represent Muslim orthodoxy, just as Hirsi, Tariq Fateh don’t represent “modernist” Islam.

Regarding your other questions regarding criticizing aspects of Islam, I believe that you or anyone else have the right to do so, but if you want there to be meaningful dialogue, you would have to ease up on the fear mongering and blasphemy.

I realize that people have to be able to ask about the issues related to what you asked somehow (since they’re in the news, whether Muslims like it or not), thus we need to be engaging.

If someone blasphemes the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), God, or Islam, and they are living in an Islamic country under a Muslim ruler, then you and I both know the ruling behind that. There is no need for any Muslim to apologize for that. If you or anyone else have a problem with that, you are free to avoid those places. To you be your all encompassing moral doctrine and to me be mine.

Now the issue of applying that today must be understood in the correct context. The punishment for apostacy in the Muslim lands (which is similar to treason) is only to be carried out by the Muslim ruler, after that person is sentenced by a Qadi (after a real trial where the person only needs to deny the charge to get out–as stated in the Hadith: “Idra’u al-Hududa bi al-Shubuhat; Repel the proscribed punishments by ambiguous doubts (as the crimnals guilt)).

If any lay Muslim takes the law into his own hands, then this is a crime in Islam. The authority for carrying out the Hudud laws (proscribed punishments) is only in the hands of the Muslim ruler and those he appoints.

If this is the standard in Islamic law for apostacy in the Muslim lands, then what about the non-Muslim lands?

The standard view in all of the four Islamic juridical schools, is that there is no Hadd (proscribed punishment) in the non Muslim lands.That basically proves that any threats (or worse) against ex Muslims or even libelous and rabid non Muslims (eg Van Gogh) in a non-Muslim society is clearly Haram (forbidden) in Islam. We dont need so called anti Sharia Modernist “Muslims” to try to change Islam to prevent extremism among the Muslims. All we need is real orthodox Islam and classical scholarship to counter the “Do it yourself” Islam that has gained popularity in the past 50 years.

No one likes to have their religion, society, or race treated as a monolith, so it would be just and better if people on both sides dropped the blanket assumptions about the others faith or society.

Now it is time for me to ask you something;

Do you believe that secularism maintains an unassailable position in Muslim countries, that can not or should not be challenged in any way?

yeah, its a loaded question, but I had to ask because more than likely, most of what you have ever learned about Islam is nothing more than assertions generally selected by picking and choosing from Islamic textual sources, that are backed up by conveniently judging something as “right” or “wrong” based on some still unexplained moral standard. That certainly doesn’t amount to objectively demonstrating anything about our Prophet’s morality.

Sure, this smoke screen might work for people who can’t take off their blinders and see outside the confines of their own culture, but not for those sincerely trying to find out why they were created and what Almighty Gods wants them to do. For such people, the formula that “Modern Western Culture is good” + “Islam differs in some ways from Modern Western Culture”, therefore “Islam is bad” is so arrogant, self-serving and self-contradictory in its intolerance that if anything it just evokes pity for those who adhere to it.

Have a nice day

Regarding your other questions regarding criticizing aspects of Islam, I believe that you or anyone else have the right to do so, but if you want there to be meaningful dialogue, you would have to ease up on the fear mongering and blasphemy.

I realize that people have to be able to ask about the issues related to what you asked somehow (since they’re in the news, whether Muslims like it or not), thus we need to be engaging.

If someone blasphemes the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), God, or Islam, and they are living in an Islamic country under a Muslim ruler, then you and I both know the ruling behind that. There is no need for any Muslim to apologize for that. If you or anyone else have a problem with that, you are free to avoid those places. To you be your all encompassing moral doctrine and to me be mine.

Now the issue of applying that today must be understood in the correct context. The punishment for apostacy in the Muslim lands (which is similar to treason) is only to be carried out by the Muslim ruler, after that person is sentenced by a Qadi (after a real trial where the person only needs to deny the charge to get out–as stated in the Hadith: “Idra’u al-Hududa bi al-Shubuhat; Repel the proscribed punishments by ambiguous doubts (as the crimnals guilt)).

If any lay Muslim takes the law into his own hands, then this is a crime in Islam. The authority for carrying out the Hudud laws (proscribed punishments) is only in the hands of the Muslim ruler and those he appoints.

If this is the standard in Islamic law for apostacy in the Muslim lands, then what about the non-Muslim lands?

The standard view in all of the four Islamic juridical schools, is that there is no Hadd (proscribed punishment) in the non Muslim lands.That basically proves that any threats (or worse) against ex Muslims or even libelous and rabid non Muslims (eg Van Gogh) in a non-Muslim society is clearly Haram (forbidden) in Islam. We dont need so called anti Sharia Modernist “Muslims” to try to change Islam to prevent extremism among the Muslims. All we need is real orthodox Islam and classical scholarship to counter the “Do it yourself” Islam that has gained popularity in the past 50 years.

No one likes to have their religion, society, or race treated as a monolith, so it would be just and better if people on both sides dropped the blanket assumptions about the others faith or society.

Now it is time for me to ask you something;

Do you believe that secularism maintains an unassailable position in Muslim countries, that can not or should not be challenged in any way?

yeah, its a loaded question, but I had to ask because more than likely, most of what you have ever learned about Islam is nothing more than assertions generally selected by picking and choosing from Islamic textual sources, that are backed up by conveniently judging something as “right” or “wrong” based on some still unexplained moral standard. That certainly doesn’t amount to objectively demonstrating anything about our Prophet’s morality.

Sure, this smoke screen might work for people who can’t take off their blinders and see outside the confines of their own culture, but not for those sincerely trying to find out why they were created and what Almighty Gods wants them to do. For such people, the formula that “Modern Western Culture is good” + “Islam differs in some ways from Modern Western Culture”, therefore “Islam is bad” is so arrogant, self-serving and self-contradictory in its intolerance that if anything it just evokes pity for those who adhere to it.

Have a nice day

Sorry, I posted it in separate pieces because it wouldn’t all fit into one post.

#78 KGS, I hardly think art portraying ones prophet in “a different light” or “sculptures made of dung” are the way to judge peoples faith and whether or not they’re extreme. As long as people like you are subjected to standard media messages and information aimed against a culture things will never change. Lets see Cardinals in The Vatican take responsibility for the actions of priests worldwide rather than hiding them. Lets see the neo conservative accept a womens right to choose rather than shoot them outside abortion clinics. Lets see the settler movement in the occupied lands stopped and reversed. While the majority of the worlds media focus on one main fear and turn a blind eye to other evils happening we can not expect a better understanding from those we have chosen to fear.

Hi Rimi,

You are slowly but surely proving that there is no such thing as a “moderate” Muslim. Even a Muslim like yourself, that admits Tammi’s Islamist group do not represent the majority of Muslims in Finland who are apathetic to his agenda, will not “budge to nudge” Islam from some of Mohamed’s dangerous teachings.

According to your logic, if we wake up one day to find ourselves living in a majority that approves of sharia, that’s OK with you. What you forget is that it SCREWS THE REST OF the non-Muslim society (and those Muslims) that want no part of the Islamic religion…at all. So if your pro-sharia, you’re anti-western democracy.

Pluralistic democracies have an achilles heel, in that it allow for types that hold anti-democratic ideals to exist within their societies, while the same can’t be said about non-pluralistic societies.

When I speak of “unnasailable”, I mean a postion in which a value or valuse system cannot be criticized,…and yes that means not even being able to blaspheme a god, any god. Which brings me to the subject of being able to criticize Islam and its prophet, Mohamed.

Well, I dont set out to represent myself as a “moderate” Muslim by your definition, because according to that definition, a “moderate” Muslim is a non-Muslim.I have nothing to prove to you or anyone else for that matter.

Are you a moderate neo-con or a regular one? Do you agree with Tancreto?

Be honest and just admit it to everyone; a good Muslim is a dead Muslim

You start out by saying that there is a freedom to criticize, but then you place rules upon the criticism. Sounds like an unfair advantage from the very beginning.

You as a Muslim must get used to the idea that NON-MUSLIMS are not in the habit of prostrating themsleves to OTHER RELIGIONS. You demand respect for Islam, while the Islamic world is desecrating the religions of others around the world. Respect is earned, and not given. Right now, there are fewer and fewer people around the world willing to give any of that much valued commodity (respect) to Islam.

My freedom to blaspheme god or the gods, comes from the individual freedoms inherent in a free democracy, if you don’t like it, you can plug your ears. It also comes from the Christian/Judeo concept of “free choice”. If their is no freedom to offend or blaspheme, there ceases to be any longer the freedom to choose.

Life under sharia sounds alot like being under Soviet Communism. “How dare anyone offend the state”.
That Muslims brutalize Muslims for “OFFENDING GOD” or their prophet is an outrage against humanity and is everyones business! It is very much the UNHRC’s business how the human rights in each individual country is advancing or backsliding.

How in the world can you, as a Muslim in a liberal democracy, accept a woman being flogged or stoned to death, (due to the “honor” of the family and village) as simply being that’s how Muslims do “justice”? I really do hope that there’s a lot of Leftists reading this exchange, it’ll really be an eye opener for them.

Youv’e admitted more than I could have hoped for. Thank you Rimi.

Just a hint. I don’t believe in moderate Muslims either. Modernist Muslims are another thing entirely. They have joined the modern age, keeping the solid good things about their faith that don’t contradict modern libersl morality.

These Muslim are abhored about women’s rights in Islamic countries, the brutal maimings handed out as punishments (cross amputations) the stoning of adultry, (used to cleanse family honor) most being women. Forcing women to stay indoors, beating children to learn the Qur’an.

These modernist Muslims find it repulsive that sharia forces non-Muslims into a second class status, that it’s full underatanding demands the jizya tax to be paid. Hamas is busy with that implementation as we write, (when they’re not throwing fattah members from the 15 story buildings)

True Muslim modernists embrace normality, pluralistic democracy and shun the thought that sharia could ever be a valid instrument of jurisprudence, let alone being OK for others around the Muslim world.

What is wrong with you people KGS? Why can’t you just leave people be and get on with your life. I hope you are not the same with your neighbour but it wouldn’t shock me at all to find out you are exactly the same as it’s rather common in Finland. You are so insecure with your own identity (or lack of) that you wish to bring down or disrespect anyone else with a strong culture, belief or identity. I don’t fear Rimi (sory Rimi) nor his Muslim brothers and sisters because I refuse to buy into this cheap and simplistic approach of yours. ”
Are you a moderate?” What a wonderfully simplistic approach to ones entire identity. If, rather than wonder about someones apparent religious beliefs, you might try to know them as people you might find the views you encounter suddenly become, in your own words, “more moderate.” You live in a simple world of black and white, good and evil, right and wrong and therefore fear is an easy option to sell you. The only time I will have fear is when the majority of people, regardless of where they live, share a view as simplistic as yours.

Oh one more point. Secularism can and should be criticized in every way, being challenged by the most intellectual voices down to the peasant in the fields.

In both arenas, when secular agrements are waged in an honest an open way….they win hands down. That is why religionists need to intimidate and set the rules for the argument, they can never win on their own belief systems merits alone…..they always need to hedge their bets by shifting the rules to their favor.

Remember what all the “rage boys” shout in the streets around the Islamic world, “ISLAM MEANS PEACE, and we’ll kill you if you don’t believe us”.

Having just looked at your “site” KGS it is clear that you have a typical bias against all things Muslim. The hatred and tripe on your page is a disgrace. Where is the news of the settlers? Where are the mentions of innocent Palestinians being killed and arrested? Treated like prisoners in their own land? Of the human rights abuses violated by Israel against it’s neighbours? Where are your “modernist” or “moderate” views?
As for Rimi, I can only wonder why he even bothers to answer your questions as you are never going to listen, consider, accept. You are a radical biggot and a supporter of a true terrorist state. You and your friends at that site are what makes this world a real shit hole at times.

Punter!

We are exchanging opinions and ideas here, why should I be chastized for airing my concerns about an imperialistic religion that has showed its ability to be resistent to change over the centuries?

Why should I shut up when a Muslim living here in Finland, thinks its ok for Muslims acting under sharia law in an Islamic country, to hang homosexuals and adulterers? Please.. I’m all ears.

Thank God im not on the left or the right. Unlike you, I dont have that dillema, so there is no need for me to pander to anyone.I dont demand respect for Islam, I demand respect for human beings–muslims included in that.Anyway, this discussion will go on ad infintum, so let me say:

One would think that before entering into debates and making vacuous claims about “right” and “wrong” you would at least have the intellectual veracity to establish what you believe the basis for right and wrong actually is — im not holding my breath though. What I gather from your blog and writings, “right” seems to be what some chiken hawk neo cons (but then again, you mentioned the UNHRC so im not sure) feel is right, and “wrong” is whatever they assert is wrong (which just happens to be just about everything Islamic).

Are you so blind that you can not see the gross over generalizations you are making? You say: “the Islamic world is desecrating the religions of others around the world.” What?! So can we also say that the “western world is occupying Iraq?”

You know, there are many in the Muslim world with your type of thinking–just on the opposite extreme. They also like to generalize and they actually believe that every westerner is an alcohol drinking, womanizing oppressor, and that every western woman has slept with at least 30 men. They believe that all of the west is the enemy.

At least for them, they can be corrected by those that know better and they dont go around with cut and paste articles from so-called experts. You on the other hand do not think it is remotely possible that you have been the victim of a clever smear job.

Oh well, despite you wish for our destruction, I wish you well. Heck, who knows, we have probably bumped into each other in the grocery store. Too bad you have chosen to be the western equivalent of al-Sahab media, al-Qala’ etc.

Oh Punter! You’re a anti-Israel advocate as well, please….tell me how you feel about a Muslim girl and a boy being murdered in Gaza just for holding hands? Or about Palestinian homosexuals leaving the PA for Israel….the only refuge they can find in the region.

Or about the Arab Christians being driven out of their homes by the Muslim Islamist majority? I can go on and on if you like, but you get the picture. Please let me know the next time a Jew is elected as a chief Supreme Court Justice in an Arab state, or when a Jew can purchase a home in Jordan.

Hmm, KGS, can you answer my questions? You thought that the Muslim had tried to run away from your questions, but I didnt. Please answer mine.

And while you are at it here are a couple more:

1. What is the criterion for your definition of right and wrong?
2. What is your opinion of American imperialism or is that ok?

You also said:
“Why should I shut up when a Muslim living here in Finland, thinks its ok for Muslims acting under sharia law in an Islamic country, to hang homosexuals and adulterers? Please.. I’m all ears.”

So according to this, if you happened to be working in a Muslim country (something I highly doubt you would do ), I would be justified to say about you:

“Why should I shut up when a non-Muslim living here in (insert Muslim country), thinks its ok for non-Muslims acting under western law in a western country, to electrocute murderers and jail bigamists? Please.. I’m all ears.”

Would that be justified? Why or why not? And if not, then why the double standard?

All I have to do is read the news every day to see how Muslims have burned another Bhuddist temple or burnt another church. How apostates are either killed, jailed or beaten, or of those who manage to escape to other lands.

These are not generalizations, these things are happening in everday life throughout the Muslim world. Its border by the way are very bloody indeed. Not admitting the reality causes me to wonder just how serious you are about what you have said earlier.

Whether its Thailand or the phillipines, India or in Africa, other religions are under siege, and not just Christians, but Bhuddists, Hindus and B’hais as well. Not admitting as much says more to me than anything else you’ve said.

Excuse me for not answeing everything, the rate at which they appear time does not allow to answer them all.

The west works vigorously in getting any form of capital punishment abolished. At least a woman facing a trial by jury knows that her voice equals that of a man. At least a convicted person knows that it’ll be 6 10 years before they’re evetually put to sleep by lethal injection, as oppossed to a quick trip before the Saudi Islamic court and the next day sent off to sit in the middle of a street to await the swinging of o’l Betsy. Chop chop.

And now you avoid my questions after having berated me for apperantly doing the same.

Oh well….I can make a website about all the crimes that blacks do and when looking at it in that way, I can say with moral authority that the blacks are at war with everyone and everything. Fortunately, assertions must be proven first.

And thus I bow out gracefully from this fruitless debate with someone who demanded answers from me, but didn’t have the courtesy to do the same.

As for the rest of you reading this, I appreciate you understanding that the world is nuanced. Muslims do indeed have to clean house, and hopefully that will continue–much to the denial or ignorance of KGS.

Oh, I just saw that you answered one of my questions. Please disregard my previous comment.

Stay well Rimi.

The settlers KGS, the settlers? Strangely enough you mentioned Thailand as a country under seige (Buddhists by Muslims.) Take your earlier point about Muslims being unable to criticize The Prophet and try doing the same in Thailand in regards to His Majesty. Two wrongs don’t make a right but you get the idea.
As for being anti Israel, you bet I am. You can give examples of injustices against non Muslims in Palestine (and yes that is what it is) but they count for very little when we look at the big picture of terror and genocide being waged against Palestinians by their Israeli neighbours. To even try to compare the 2 shows your view of the world and the region. Truely sorry and sick.

You would then have to prove that blacks (African Americans I suppose you are refering to) have a special creed they follow, that demands them to be always at war until they have either subjected or killed their enemies.

What sayeth you about Islam?

Yes the world is nuanced and to some degree not black and white as you say, but that should never be used as the grounds to submiss the destructive nature of pure Islam, under its draconian code of the sharia.

Hey Punter, here is a clue for you on just how Muslims (not indoctrinated with anti-Jew hate) feel about Israel.

India’s chief Muslim authority recently visisted Israel and called on Pakistan to recognize her. Said that almost all things he heard about the Jewish state were false.

Sudanese Muslim refugees cross dangerous stretches of Muslim Egytpian desert to reach the shores of Jewish Israel. Why would they drather risk death in choosing the Jewish state instead of their brother Muslims?

The settlers the settlers, what about the Jewish settlers in JUDEA AND SAMARIA? What about the Jews that were vacated from Gaza, and yet the missiles rain on S’derot. Why shoudl a complete evacuation from the disputed territories be any different?

Was it any different when Israel withdrew from all of Lebanon in 2000? NO. Israel was still attacked by the Hezbollah. Go figure it for yourself. The settlers are not the problem. The problem is with Palestinians wanting an apratheid state, free of Jews.

That’ll be a great relief to the Arab Christians, beaten Arab wives and Arab homosexuals that they factor very little in your viewpoint, because Israel is the big monster here.

Very simplistic and very naive thinking. Israel is labeled as “indiscriminately terrorizing/killing everyone”…while at the same time ´being chatized for its “targeted attacks” against wanted individual terrorists. Go figure.

The Palestinian thugs who have ruined the average Palestinian’s life and livelyhood and yet being anti-Israel is not a foreign idea for you. Though they represent everything that is brutal –not speaking about what they do to Israelis, but what they do to their own people, yet the Palestinian “leadership” is the ideal force to side with. IHANA!

I’ll give ya clue, as long as the Palestinians are threat to themsleves, they will continue to be a threat to their neighbors. When they begin to excerize the observence of basic human rights to their own people, and prepare tem for an eventual peace with Israel, then and only then will there be light at the end of the tunnel.

Leter

You said:

“you would then have to prove that blacks (African Americans I suppose you are refering to) have a special creed they follow, that demands them to be always at war until they have either subjected or killed their enemies.”

Ok, how about this, how about you actually prove that is what Muslims believe; that we have a creed that demands perpetual warfare. You present your proof for that, and then I will respond.

“They also like to generalize and they actually believe that every westerner is an alcohol drinking, womanizing oppressor“,

Well, that’s sort of true. When I’m not womanizing, then you’ll probably find me urinating in a doorway somewhere.

“and that every western woman has slept with at least 30 men.”

That viewpoint can only result from watching too many pornos.

Then again, there was this girl I knew in ‘college’… Oh nevermind

Rimi, I enjoy reading your comments.

After experiencing for years what has happened in The Netherlands, I can only give Finland one advice. Keep the Muslims out of the country and you will spare yourself some never ending problems that just keep getting worse and worse. These guys don’t give up before they haven’t established their own network of autonomous caliphates all over Europe and they will try do do exactly the same in Finland unless Finns prevent them to do so and that is only possible by keeping them out of the country.

For Muslims we are all dhimmis who need to be humiliated until Islam has achieved submission of all dhimmis. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi

For Islam there exists a house of peace and a house of war that demands jihad. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dar_al-Islam
Now, this “peace” is not what the average Finn believes it to be. According to Islam the house of peace has been established when the last person is forced into converting to Islam. In areas where there are still non-muslims left over, a muslim enters the house of war and that results in an obligation to start a jihad. Muslims claim that Islam the religion of peace. Well, once we understand that Muslims refer in that case to the difference between their “house of peace” where everybody is a conforming Muslim and the “house of war”, essentially a territory where there still exists some pluralism in a society, then we should all start to shiver when Muslims talk about Islam is a religion of PEACE.

Does #109 sound familiar when we look at how Muslims behave in western countries that gives them refuge, human rights, pluralism, freedom of speech, and protecion? Immediately these guys will claim in the Mosques that their host society consists of a bunch of pigs and dogs, the women of that host society are all prostitutes, homosexuality is a crime, and the only solution is to reject their host society and fight it (we enter the house of war). It is well documented how Imams all across Europe breach hatred.

Islamic doctrine preaches arrogance against non-muslims and gives very clear instructions about what needs to be done to eradicate any deviations from Islam as an ultimate goal in any society where they are allowed to get their foot into the door. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi

The middle east and north africa were once in large parts Christian (not that I care much about that) areas until Islam spread with the force of the sword. A break to this spread was only achieved when Europe started to fight back with what historians call crusades. The Islamic world always likes to use the crusades for putting historic blame on the West so that we feel guilty. I believe there is no reason to feel guilty and inferior just because they Muslims like to tell us so all the time because without the brutal crusades we Europeans would all not be enjoying our societal, cultural, and scientific achievements that the Muslim world envies us so much for.

What I forgot to write in #111 was that the achievements of Islam came in large parts from dhimmis in territories that Islam took over. Arabs were curious to milk the knowledge of dhimmis of Zoroastrian, Budhist, Hindu, Jewish, and Christian backgrounds. However, with this creeping tendency of eradicating pluralism, and hence eradicating dhimmis, the sources of achievement were gone. Note that once Islam has achieved creating a house of peace (see #109), there is no room any longer for liberal art, literature, science, etc. Hence, it becomes clear why the muslim countries have declined so badly over the centuries, a fact which is very painful for them. Once the knowledgeable dhimmis were wiped out after several decades, the society that entered the house peace entered at the the same time a phase of painful decline. Today only the small number of Muslim countries that allow limited pluralism (i.e., and dhimmis) are doing rather well.

Excellent BAFANA. Thanks for the input. You have pretty much answered Rimi.

All of us infidels on this blog will all be denounced and labeled as followers of the infidel prophet Robert Spencer,the author of “The Truth about Muhammad” There are people whose belief system does not allow debate based on documented truths

Today is the day to remember those who died on 911..That astonishing day is imprinted in my thoughts…2 jets from Logan airport in Boston
flew right over my house,on their way to smash into the twin towers
in New York City…It was a wake up call to me to resist those who have bad intentions for America…

That’s great infinndel—and rip to those who perished—but have you given any thought to why you were attacked in the first place?

116…..Go ahead,blame the victim

infinndel, you’re a dick. Go move in with winter

#118…Your mother wears army boots…And I would fart in your general direction,but it is a waste of my carbon footprint!…TWAT

All I can say to this is:

Tolerance towards intolerance is still intolerance. Sharia has absolutely no place in a western democracy whatsoever, and if these muslims of Finland really have such a problem with our society as it currently stands, including alcoholic beverages in stores, they are perfectly free to LEAVE the country and go someplace where their sensitive little minds will not be offended.

If anything, even the premise of such party being up for elections is going to collect a lot of votes…for Perussuomalaiset.

Earlier this week I just found out that Italy and France are having major problems with their birth rate, because the cost of living is so high that it is not uncommon to live with your parents at the age of 25-35 with your wife. Also that if the birth rate problem keeps going on, in a few years there will be more Muslims/Arabs in Italy & Frace than there are Italians or french. That is a thought to think about!!!

KGS:
The west works vigorously in getting any form of capital punishment abolished.

And nowhere do they work more vigorously than in Texas. Yee-hawww!

Tammi has menthal problems in his history, and he has been bouncing and bouncing to other party and to other party… If someone doesnt take this gay fake musulmaniac out…Then i will.

Congratulation! I thing you are running to achieve a high aim that many “blinds” who unfortunately think they see, will never understand. Please never care about those who known from Islam except their ignorance.

MAy Allah bless you and your noble action.

My life’s been pretty dull these days. Not much on my mind recently. My mind is like a fog, but shrug. I haven’t been up to anything today, but oh well. I haven’t gotten much done lately.

I haven’t gotten anything done lately. Not much on my mind recently. I just don’t have much to say right now. My mind is like an empty room.