Finland’s lack of privacy has dangerous consequences
Finland has a *serious* lack of respect for its citizens’ privacy. Welfare Statists claim an “openness” in personal records is essential to keep the welfare state ideology afloat, but as YLE reports, Finland’s lack of privacy has some dangerous consequences for its people…
Each year, a thousand people in Finland seal their contact information from the public because they fear for their own or their family’s safety.
Roughly half of the orders are sought for professional reasons, and the rest because of abusive family situations. In fact, Finland’s organization for victim support recommends privacy orders to protect personal safety, especially when restraining orders fail to do the job.
“We recommend privacy orders in situations related to abusive spousal relationships - especially when the abuse does not end with divorce,” says Jaana Koivukangas of Victim Support Finland.
Lauri Haikarainen, director of the Helsinki register office says he sees a clear rise in perceptions of insecurity among certain professional groups. Public servants including social workers, police, security guards, and even doctors of late, are seeking privacy orders as a measure to guard against threats arising from their line of work.
A privacy order seals address and domicile information, making the information accessible only for select authorities. At the moment, there are 6700 injunctions in force, most of which are concentrated in southern Finland’s larger municipalities.
finlands lack of privacy has dangerous consequences
I couldn’t agree more.
http://www.verosirkus.net
Could anything be more insulting?
Comment by Kristian — Wed, Aug 22nd, 2007 @ 4:48 pm
Lack of respect for privacy, compared to what/whom?
Anyway, if you don’t want your address given to just anybody, you can advise the authorities accordingly: http://www.vaestorekisterikeskus.fi/vrk/home.nsf/Pages/6757422FD0432807C2256F26002FF77C .
Comment by prince of dorkness — Wed, Aug 22nd, 2007 @ 4:52 pm
Pretty fucked up, families are forced to move to another city and children are forced to goto another school because the state is so lackadaisical with people’s privacy.
And what the WORST part is that this lack of privacy is due to a political ideology!!
Comment by Phil — Wed, Aug 22nd, 2007 @ 4:55 pm
The linked article is about a way in which people can protect their contact details. It’s not evidence of a lack of respect of citizen’s privacy, quite the opposite.
Comment by a lamb with no guiding light — Wed, Aug 22nd, 2007 @ 4:57 pm
Finland’s lack of privacy has some dangerous consequences for its people…
Each year, a thousand people in Finland seal their contact information from the public because they fear…
Phil, it’s not the so called “lack of privacy” that is a real problem. It’s that some people are living in fear of something. This is not good.
Can you begin to imagine the levels of self fulfilling paranoid fear that living in a society with a cloak of deep secrecy would brew? This would be not good, maybe even deadly dangerous.
Comment by pi — Wed, Aug 22nd, 2007 @ 5:03 pm
While the particular case you mention is real, the general inference you make is absurd. Finland has, like the rest of the EU, very restrictive legislation on collection of personal data, and the welfare state argument has, to my knowledge, been applied only to tax information.
The article you cite is not very clear on this, but the issue is about how the population register center is allowed (as an exception to the general rule) to hand out information on a person, and the injunction is applicable only to that registry. The word “injunction” is also incorrect, as the order is not a court order (unlike a restraining order) but an administrative order entered into the system.
Details in Väestötietolaki. The “privacy order” refers to Section 25, Paragraph 4.
Comment by Antti-Juhani Kaijanaho — Wed, Aug 22nd, 2007 @ 5:05 pm
Just to make it clear, the “privacy order” is not a general order binding all registries, it only applies to the population registry (väestörekisteri). Other registries are, in general, forbidden by law from handing out individual personal information.
Comment by Antti-Juhani Kaijanaho — Wed, Aug 22nd, 2007 @ 5:08 pm
A) Doesn’t that article prove exactly the point that there are checks in place to prevent danger?
B) Is Finland for thought run by some computer program which just scans the internet for tedious stories so it can churn out the same tiresome topics again and again under different author names?
Comment by Rich — Wed, Aug 22nd, 2007 @ 5:09 pm
8. B) Is Finland for thought run by some computer program which just scans the internet for tedious stories so it can churn out the same tiresome topics again and again under different author names?
“I couldn’t agree more. repeat link - Comment by Kristian”
“I couldn’t agree more more. repeat repeat link- Comment by Kristian”
“I couldn’t agree agree mooore more. repeat link link - Comment by Kri$tian”
You’re kidding!
Comment by pi — Wed, Aug 22nd, 2007 @ 5:19 pm
Welfare Statists claim an “openness†in personal records is essential to keep the welfare state ideology afloat
It has more to do with the belief in a democratic and open society than with the welfare state. There are people from the whole range of the political spectrum who believe in this, some of whom probably do not believe in a welfare state even.
Comment by JG — Wed, Aug 22nd, 2007 @ 5:35 pm
A) Doesn’t that article prove exactly the point that there are checks in place to prevent danger?
Why make people go through the trouble, often when it’s already too late? Why not make everyone’s information private?
B) Is Finland for thought run by some computer program which just scans the internet for tedious stories so it can churn out the same tiresome topics again and again under different author names?
LOL! Imagine if I said to you, “Is Koti-isä’s Coffee Break run by some computer program which just writes boring stores about some guy’s kid?” It’s a blog, man. We write about whatever we feel like writing about. Privacy is obviously an important topic to us. I should goto one of the million anti-Bush blogs and be like, “God!! More criticisms about Bush!! This is getting OLD!!
Comment by Phil — Wed, Aug 22nd, 2007 @ 7:27 pm
It has more to do with the belief in a democratic and open society than with the welfare state.
Yeah and look what it leads to (see YLE article above)
There are people from the whole range of the political spectrum who believe in this, some of whom probably do not believe in a welfare state even.
What if everyone filled out the paperwork to get their personal data out of the public eyes, would the welfare state crumble?
Comment by Phil — Wed, Aug 22nd, 2007 @ 7:29 pm
What if everyone filled out the paperwork to get their personal data out of the public eyes, would the welfare state crumble?
No, obviously not. It has little to do with the welfare state. What would crumble in such a circumstance is the fairly unique open nature of the way our society operates, perhaps shared only with the other Nordic countries.
Comment by JG — Wed, Aug 22nd, 2007 @ 8:07 pm
What are you trying to say? That contact information should be secret by default and one needs to explicitly to make public?
Personally I dislike the idea of nobody being able to contact me and potentially needing to pay all sorts of catalogue fees to get my phone and address listed.
Comment by T — Wed, Aug 22nd, 2007 @ 8:17 pm
[i]LOL! Imagine if I said to you, “Is Koti-isä’s Coffee Break run by some computer program which just writes boring stores about some guy’s kid?†It’s a blog, man. We write about whatever we feel like writing about[/i]
Thing is Phil – if my blog ran the same 5 stories about nappies all the time, over and over, without ever adding any new information about nappies, referencing *itself* when asked to provide evidence about nappies, and ignoring all types of news stories that didn’t fit my opinions about nappies, THEN then you’d have every right to call it “boring†too.
Also, in that sense our blogs would be more similar – both talking a lot of shit.
Comment by Rich — Wed, Aug 22nd, 2007 @ 8:54 pm
Pi - The fear is of people in general, not some outdated ideology when people just ignored the wifebeaters and drunks and psychos in town. I know that folks in the Nordics really like to think they still live in Maberrymäki where people hold hands and sing together and nobody farts upwind but all the things that you *tsk*tsk* at the US for exist in Finland albeit in a proportionately smaller percentage.
I used to hang out in the koff park dog park with a very nice woman, a local shrink who has had to have her phone number blocked and changed numerous times because of crazy and violent patients getting her info either through the open info or stupid people at the office giving it out.
I like the idea of only those who have my number being able to call me as I’m not that hard to find and the only others who call are just trying to sell me something most of the time.
Comment by hfb — Wed, Aug 22nd, 2007 @ 9:05 pm
What would crumble in such a circumstance is the fairly unique open nature of the way our society operates, perhaps shared only with the other Nordic countries.
So all these mommies requesting the state to keep their data private, are ruining our society!!!! LOL!!
Comment by Phil — Wed, Aug 22nd, 2007 @ 9:33 pm
THEN then you’d have every right to call it “boring†too.
I always get my stories from YLE and Hesari, so I guess it’s THEY who are boring and repetitive!
Also, in that sense our blogs would be more similar – both talking a lot of shit.
Hehe
Comment by Phil — Wed, Aug 22nd, 2007 @ 9:36 pm
Huh I’m not sure, but havent we talked this through already….
Comment by Topias — Wed, Aug 22nd, 2007 @ 9:52 pm
Welfare Statists claim an “openness†in personal records is essential to keep the welfare state ideology afloat
Like who?
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, Aug 22nd, 2007 @ 10:59 pm
How’s this different in any non-welfare state? You can’t find peoples addresses in the phone book?
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, Aug 22nd, 2007 @ 11:11 pm
Like who?
I’ve heard that reasoning a million times on this blog.
Comment by Phil — Thu, Aug 23rd, 2007 @ 12:18 am
How’s this different in any non-welfare state? You can’t find peoples addresses in the phone book?
I think we’re talking about more than just phone books here, since the victims have to turn to the state to get their private data removed from public eyes, I’m assuming it’s more to do with tax records, license plate numbers via SMS etc..
Comment by Phil — Thu, Aug 23rd, 2007 @ 12:19 am
So all these mommies requesting the state to keep their data private, are ruining our society!!!! LOL!!
No, not at all. You asked what would happen if everyone were to do this, not if in certain individual isolated cases people did it. We are talking about 6700 injunctions amongst more than 5 million people.
Comment by JG — Thu, Aug 23rd, 2007 @ 12:38 am
I agree entirely with Phil on this. He is exactly correct in saying that political ideology played a role in letting things get to this point. It’s really all about societal control. Personal privacy in Finland is a human rights issue that needs desperately to be addressed.
Whereas it might be easy to explain-it-away as being part of the ‘open society’ model or some such creation, for many it is—and always was—a form of humiliation and oppression. If you only knew how many emails http://www.verosirkus.net receives from people who want the system changed, then you’d all see why this is such a big issue.
Comment by Kristian — Thu, Aug 23rd, 2007 @ 2:08 am
“Personal privacy in Finland is a human rights issue that needs desperately to be addressed.”
Aww - Fuck off, Kristian!
Any list of human rights priorities that need “desparately to be addressed” contains serious issues affecting many millions of people in much more profound ways than this pet peeve of yours.
Grow a brain, and if you want to campaign about human rights issues stop wasting your time here and pick a real human rights problem (you can visit http://www.hrw.org if you can’t think of any real ones) and direct your energy there.
Somehow I doubt you’ll heed the advice and will continue thumping your chest for a bit of attention around here. Pathetic little fellow.
Comment by pi — Thu, Aug 23rd, 2007 @ 2:50 am
Wow, I can see this isn’t going to be an easy thread
Comment by Kristian — Thu, Aug 23rd, 2007 @ 3:47 am
#26: We finns have grave problems accepting any kind of criticism. Thank you for demonstrating it yet again. Has it ever occurred to you that you can just stop reading if you can’t take it? But you choose to come here and call people names. Very constructive. I think you need to get a life.
Comment by mh — Thu, Aug 23rd, 2007 @ 4:47 am
hfb:
I like the idea of only those who have my number being able to call me as I’m not that hard to find and the only others who call are just trying to sell me something most of the time.
I’m not sure where you’re getting at here… When you get a new phone number in Finland, you’ll be asked whether you want to make it public or not. Isn’t this a deal between you and the phone company? As far as I know, Väestörekisterikeskus doesn’t give out your phone number. They probably don’t even have it.
Comment by mh — Thu, Aug 23rd, 2007 @ 5:02 am
#23 “I think we’re talking about more than just phone books here, since the victims have to turn to the state to get their private data removed from public eyes, Im assuming it’s more to do with tax records, license plate numbers via SMS etc”
Actually, the major risk issue the article talks about is *domestic abuse*, and the major type of rike information is *address details* (but hey never let the truth get in the way of a good story)
Whilst you libertarians might get all jumpy about tax records, i think the average beaten spouse would prefer their violent husband had their tax details than their home address. And that rather seems to be what Yle is talking about…
Comment by Rich — Thu, Aug 23rd, 2007 @ 8:01 am
Hey pi, are you a member of The True Finns Party? Your attitude and ability to communicate would suggest at least the name of the party suits you. “A True Finn.”
Comment by Punter — Thu, Aug 23rd, 2007 @ 10:18 am
Hey, Punter, are you an Australian. You can’t come up with a coherent argument, ever. That makes you a typical Australian. (Yes, I know that you don’t understand what I’m talking about, but why bother, you’re an Australian!)
Comment by summer — Thu, Aug 23rd, 2007 @ 12:18 pm
@31,
Finally, someone with something substantial to contribute to this discussion.
Comment by prince of dorkness — Thu, Aug 23rd, 2007 @ 12:28 pm
Stupid and pointless topic.
When one is motivated by anger and obsession there is no way to hide in modern society without specifically requested gov help. Not in Finland not in the US or any other place.
Phil is showing his true american spirit by trying to blend tax records(could someone please make an example of some horrible atrocities committed based on tax information?) into domestic abuse. Unfortunately our culture here is more the sort where you actually read things, and then you think about things.
Comment by philtard — Thu, Aug 23rd, 2007 @ 2:35 pm
good thread. We all agree the welfare state of Finland has many basic flaws.
Thats a good point to make over and over, if one wants to change things.
Comment by winter “Yea, Proton Power, now in remission†— Thu, Aug 23rd, 2007 @ 2:44 pm
I think information protection laws are well covered:
Henkilötietolaki: (Something like: Information protection law for private citizens)
http://www.finlex.fi/fi/laki/ajantasa/1999/19990523
Sähköisen viestinnän tietosuojalaki: (Information protection law of electronic communication)
http://www.finlex.fi/fi/laki/alkup/2004/20040516
Comment by tim73 — Thu, Aug 23rd, 2007 @ 2:48 pm
Tim73—
It’s true that information protection laws are in existence. Finland’s privacy laws were written to conform with various human rights treaties that previous governments signed with the European Union and the United Nations.
However, Finland’s governments didn’t/don’t adhere to those treaties—neither ‘in good faith’ nor ‘in word.’ And as a small country, it is easy to slip under the radar of international courts.
That is now changing, because people are complaining more than ever before. Furthermore, it’s not just an internal, national issue anymore. It really affects commerce relations throughout the EU and beyond.
Comment by Kristian — Thu, Aug 23rd, 2007 @ 3:04 pm
“It really affects commerce relations throughout the EU and beyond.”
A friend of mine has been doing research for a business plan invovling exporting a product to Finland. Finland’s lack of privacy has made it VERY easy for her to see the profit potential (a few clicks, a few calls)and to figure out how much her Finnish competitors are making. If she goes through with it, she will be competing with Finnish businesses with a major upper hand as a result of the privacy laws.
Comment by maaksalaatikko — Thu, Aug 23rd, 2007 @ 5:39 pm
#32 Summer (a play on our friend winter I take it) you have truly made a coherent arguement there. Some people, seemingly your good self, would take it as a compliment to be called “A True Finn.” I on the other hand think of it as far from a compliment. Now, a true Australian…… Thanks
Comment by Punter — Thu, Aug 23rd, 2007 @ 7:42 pm
Maksalaatikko #38:
“Finland’s lack of privacy has made it VERY easy for her to see the profit potential (a few clicks, a few calls)and to figure out how much her Finnish competitors are making. If she goes through with it, she will be competing with Finnish businesses with a major upper hand as a result of the privacy laws.”
Isn’t this what “markets” are about? Free information and such. Funny that you people who ALWAYS argue for the US model of economy (based on so called “free markets”, which - in theory - are supposed to be effective) are so against one of the fundamental requirements for the the kind of economic model you defend. But then again, LOGIC hasn’t been the strong point in the arguments guys like you provide.
Comment by Thomas — Sat, Aug 25th, 2007 @ 5:22 pm
Why can’t YOU PEOPLE get it through your thick heads that not all of US PEOPLE want a US model economy? All most of us would like to see is a little less government and a little more freedom and competition here. Again the typical mentality here is way off the mark and summed up in a narrow Finnish way.
Comment by Punter — Sat, Aug 25th, 2007 @ 6:38 pm
Punter:
“Why can’t YOU PEOPLE get it through your thick heads that not all of US PEOPLE want a US model economy?”
The “US model of economy” - much in favour of most “liberty” proponents on this forum - is a “short hand” for less government intervention, and increased “freedom”. Why is your skull preventing you from seeing this? Is it too thick perhaps?
Comment by Thomas — Sat, Aug 25th, 2007 @ 9:06 pm
Punter,
that’s absolutely correct. Many people see faults in the US system—even Americans themselves. In many cases, what masquerades as a freemarket economy is actually a system plagued with interference from special interests. This backdoor protectionism and favoritism especially hurts the ‘little guy’ in the US.
All things considered though, it’s free-er than the Finnish one. And that is reflected in the huge differences in salaries, purchasing power, etc. between the two countries.
You’re exactly right in saying that many in Finland—including ourseves—would like to move in a free-er direction. But perhaps we’d like to see a totally free version of the US model—not a copy of the faux-free model that currently exists in the US.
Insofar as our personal information goes, I prefer the tighter EU and United Nations laws regarding the issue, rather than the American paradigm. Maybe Finland should start honoring the agreements and treaties it signs?
Comment by Kristian — Sat, Aug 25th, 2007 @ 10:44 pm
This forum? I am an individual that coments on the situations raised in this forum as I see and from my perspective. Stop labelling me. Less government? HELL YES. Increased freedom? HELL YES. Do I think the US is the perfect model? HELL NO. Read peoples thoughts then comment. At least I have a skull on my shoulders and not a wet sack of sh*te.
Comment by Punter — Sat, Aug 25th, 2007 @ 10:44 pm
Punter:
“Stop labelling me. Less government? HELL YES. Increased freedom? HELL YES. Do I think the US is the perfect model? HELL NO. Read peoples thoughts then comment. At least I have a skull on my shoulders and not a wet sack of sh*te.”
Why don’t you stop LABELLING me then? I’ve seen labels placed on me by “prominent” writers on this forum (even so called “guest bloggers”) numerous times.
Comment by Thomas — Sat, Aug 25th, 2007 @ 11:41 pm
Punter:
“At least I have a skull on my shoulders and not a wet sack of sh*te.”
Since you are so intelligent, then why don’t you explain to us dumb welfare-state proponents in what sense our IDEOLOGY (whatever that means) is responsible for “lack of privacy”. That seems to be Phil’s point in the first place. As usual, no proof is provided with the original claim.
Comment by Thomas — Sat, Aug 25th, 2007 @ 11:58 pm
If you read back of the pages of FFT you’ll see a common trend in that manu welfare statists seem to think it is right to have an “open” society where all things are known and accessable. An example of this is your financial/tax records. This openess it is suggested stops the rich from being able to do all kinds of evil and nastiness with their wealth and also ensures taxes are paid to fund this circus.
We on the other side claim this is an infringement on our privacy and would appreciate a little less snooping on these things be it my financial, phone, address or vehicle information (to name a few common ones) Whenever we mention this in Finland or on FFT, it is ou on the left that claim such openess is needed in our society. That “if we’ve got nothing to hide then it shouldn’t bother us” etc etc etc. The two go hand in hand. Leftists claiming an open society is good for all regardless of the content.
Note- The only time in Finland so far where the Left (welfare statists) haven’t seen fit to have an open flow of information is in regards to The Stasi List (or KGB List too now?) Can’t seem to find too many wanting to discuss it either. Somehow my finance records or my vehicle information leading to my address is more important to be public than the names of communist supporters in Finland that helped and informed Stasi and KGB during the cold war. To think that most of these people are still politically active today (Mrs. Pres) and being sheltered like this is a national disgrace.
Comment by Punter — Sun, Aug 26th, 2007 @ 7:52 am
So I know you’re reading this. I know you understand. My problem is where is the response. As normal, when in a tight spot you disappear just like the Left wish would happen to your Stasi (KGB) list. Weak.
Comment by Punter — Sun, Aug 26th, 2007 @ 8:13 pm
#38: Hallelujah! As a Finnish consumer, I welcome her business with open arms. We can certainly use more competition in the import market. If open tax records facilitate this, then it is an argument for them, not against. I’m afraid she’ll just become a part of the retail cartel, though.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Mon, Aug 27th, 2007 @ 6:42 pm
#48: This does require actually following the news, but every politician is in favour of opening the Rosenholz files. Even the notorious Örkki&Tavja.
Of course, this being Finland, one important point of discussion has been the “salary” (i.e. hourly billing rate) of Rusi’s attorney. The fact that so many Finns can’t differentiate between the two is rather ungortunate. Then again, the cluelessness of the masses gives us entrepreneurs an upper hand.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Mon, Aug 27th, 2007 @ 7:37 pm
Well one “list” is out now and how wonderful to see such distinguished people on it. Can’t wait for the the full one and to see how quickly it is washed under the carpet. Take em all behind the sauna………
Comment by Punter — Mon, Aug 27th, 2007 @ 11:12 pm
Thomas, the silence is deafening.
Comment by Punter — Tue, Aug 28th, 2007 @ 8:43 pm