Helsinki’s public transit best in Europe?
@ 3:56 pm According to a new Europebarometer report, Helsinki’s public transit is voted best in Europe!
It comes as quite a shocker in the wake of a visit from my European acquaintances who commented about the long wait times and lack of sufficient nighttime service. Perhaps they’ll bring their walking shoes next time.
Of course we all know that there are alternatives to public transit. And not to worry, because taxis accept credit cards—it beats spending the rest of your evening hiking all the way home, right?
That’s not to say that the sunrise isn’t pretty in ultra-high-tax Finland. It most certainly is.
Anyway, I was almost taken-in by this new report. But then I read more closely…
Nine out of ten of local residents say they are satisfied or extremely satisfied with public transport in the capital.
Ah, now I understand. They asked residents, themselves, to rate the service—most of whose frame-of-reference is limited to the nearby (and considerably smaller) city of Tampere. Or maybe Turku at best.
So is this like the famous “Happiness Survey” wherein Finns were asked “Are you happy?” Finland emerged on-top in that survey, too.
There are three questions you ask yourself about public transport. First, is it reasonably priced. Second, does it run on time. Third, is it frequent enough. For most people the answer to these questions is yes. If you use it every day and get a time card it is reasonably priced. In my experience they are rarely more than five minutes late. Gripes about frequency can only come reasonably from people who live quite far out or who travel a lot at night.
Thus, one can conclude that it is not unreasonable for ninety percent of residents to say they are satisfied - even if they are from Switzerland and not Tampere. Most people are satisfied with less than perfection.
Comment by Finnsense — Mon, Jul 30th, 2007 @ 4:20 pm
So Finns lie more than others? Or is the opinion of some random FOREIGNER tourist more crucial than local people’s which use these services every weekday at least?!
Once again something that really is quite good in Finland, Kristian tries to dispute that plus the usual “high taxes are to blame”-crap. FYI, in Germany income tax is higher than in here for singles at least.
Buses run until almost 5 am every weekend in Helsinki, you do not need a taxi unless you live somewhere far away countryside. Turku and Tampere also have very good bus services. Local trains do provide also quite good service and cover vast areas. Countryside bus companies get government aid to run otherwise unprofitable routes.
Comment by tim73 — Mon, Jul 30th, 2007 @ 5:04 pm
Helsinki metro “network” - Lol!
Comment by mh — Mon, Jul 30th, 2007 @ 5:08 pm
“Gripes about frequency can only come reasonably from people who live quite far out or who travel a lot at night.”
- I would not call living in Siltamaki as being quite far out, but you could not help thinking so with the Sunday bus service and the night busses that too the long, windy route to get there.
The nice about public transport in Helsinki is that it only takes you twice as long to get to where your going than if you took a car.
Comment by Fred Fry — Mon, Jul 30th, 2007 @ 5:10 pm
As far as I know, the Dutch public transport system has been voted the best in the world by specialists in urban planning. The Dutch made a major overhaul of their system in the 90’s and changed all the time tables to improve the connections between trains and buses. They also implemented real time tracking, which also has now been implemented in Helsinki, at least to a degree.
Comment by Fat Bastard — Mon, Jul 30th, 2007 @ 5:14 pm
So Finns lie more than others? Or is the opinion of some random FOREIGNER tourist more crucial than local people’s which use these services every weekday at least?!
Well, the tourist has been to at least one other country so he has broader view than Pekka who has been to Tampere where things are even worse. That was the point. A finn thinks things are good because he doesn’t know any better.
Comment by mh — Mon, Jul 30th, 2007 @ 5:15 pm
“The nice about public transport in Helsinki is that it only takes you twice as long to get to where your going than if you took a car.”
But that’s only true because people don’t take cars. The minute a few more people started using their cars it would take twice as long by car.
Comment by Finnsense — Mon, Jul 30th, 2007 @ 5:19 pm
“Well, the tourist has been to at least one other country so he has broader view than Pekka who has been to Tampere where things are even worse.”
Well that woulad also be true in Barcelona and with Carlos “Never been outside Spain” Rodriguez. They also judged their public transport according to their own experiences. That was the point of this survey anyway. If local people say it is good, so what is there to complain?
Comment by tim73 — Mon, Jul 30th, 2007 @ 5:36 pm
They also judged their public transport according to their own experiences. That was the point of this survey anyway. If local people say it is good, so what is there to complain?
In most other countries the locals are capable of self-criticism. According to the locals in Finland, we have best healthcare in the world, we’re the happiest nation in the world and so on. We finns tend to overrate ourselves.
Comment by mh — Mon, Jul 30th, 2007 @ 6:02 pm
Let us keep in mind that ignorance is important to Finland’s economy. It greases the wheels and makes sure people stay “happy”.
Comment by Pikku Porsas — Mon, Jul 30th, 2007 @ 6:41 pm
Sometimes I think we have to learn from Finns about happiness. Every outsiders should organize seminars on happiness and invite Finns as speakers. I think the world would become much happier, safer paradise if they come to master Finnish way of mental masturbation.
Comment by european — Mon, Jul 30th, 2007 @ 7:25 pm
“It comes as quite a shocker in the wake of a visit from my European acquaintances who commented about the long wait times and lack of sufficient nighttime service.”
Shit, maybe you should tell the expert researchers at Eurobarometer, and quickly! To think they didn’t consult your friends in their data-gathering. Clearly this report has no credibility…
Comment by Rich — Mon, Jul 30th, 2007 @ 7:40 pm
“The European Commission’s study interviewed nearly 38 000 people in 75 European cities. In Finland, Helsinki and Oulu were included in the opinion survey.”
Of course that is statistically not at all as meaningful as Kristian with fancy ass European acquaintances…what else did they complain?
That beer was way too expensive and too lame, weather was awful, food terrible, natives looked short, fat, stupid and ugly, kinda like: http://www.petplanet.co.uk/petplanet/
images/breeds/bulldog74.jpg), service in restaurants was lousy and
drunks everywhere and what else?
Comment by tim73 — Mon, Jul 30th, 2007 @ 8:33 pm
One issue with cars in Finland is that there is little middle-ground for the basic reality that the answer for most people is car and public transport. There is too much discussion over the prevention of people owning any car. That is a strategy that will fail in the long run. Let people buy their cars and then tempt them out of them with good options for public transport. Maybe, if the roads were clogged with cars, people would switch.
Helsinki’s public transport is no better than NY City’s and I dare say it is not much better than Washington, DC’s. Both systems have huge ridership.
Comment by Fred Fry — Mon, Jul 30th, 2007 @ 9:28 pm
[Points at comment #13 above.]
If Finland’s public transit system can be compared to New York’s, I don’t know if that’s a good thing or a bad thing. The MTA is great because it shuttles an unbelievable amount of people across an enormous distance in a very brief amount of time. At the same time, if you look at some the stations, you’d think Armageddon has arrived. And, the weekend schedule it absolutely impossible!!
Comment by funkybrownchick — Mon, Jul 30th, 2007 @ 10:19 pm
I have a good idea on how to get rid of unemployment:
A
Lets establish the “European research instititute”
B
Lets employ all the people currently unemployed to this newly established institute.
C
Lets let loose the newly hired employees of the “European research institute” to make surveys on:
A
Which is best:
A
HK Sininen with beer
B
Some foreign crap makkara
C
A is the correct answer..
And so on..
I r smart!
Comment by Reposte — Mon, Jul 30th, 2007 @ 10:45 pm
NOOOOOO
every one gets a Hummer. Thats the answer to all questions.
Comment by winter, "Yea, Proton Power, now in remission" — Mon, Jul 30th, 2007 @ 11:04 pm
Bah, who wants Hummer, when T-72’s come soon to army surplus auction. You can park that over any hummer…
There’s enough public transit in Helsinki to get you to work by 8, back home at 4 and to church on sunday. That should be enough for any good lutheran and paying taxi while returning from some vice nest at early hours just serves everybody right.
Comment by Antti rn — Tue, Jul 31st, 2007 @ 12:10 am
Maybe Finns are such a happy nation because of the high suicide rate. All the unhappy ones are dead.
Comment by Anonymous — Tue, Jul 31st, 2007 @ 2:03 am
Don’t complain peasents, real people live in walking distance of any bars they want to go. You bus people should stay where you are anyway and stop wasting city peoples street during the weekends.
And yes it’s horrible people are actually happy with something, definetely, need to stop shit like that.
Comment by philtard — Tue, Jul 31st, 2007 @ 6:08 am
It once again goes to prove the reality that Finns are hapy simply because their told to be and secondly they have no idea about anything else. They’re told it’s Finnish, their told it’s the best and that’s the end of the need for thinking…………
Healthcare, transport, living standard, technology, tomatoes, cucumbers………..
Comment by Punter — Tue, Jul 31st, 2007 @ 9:38 am
Watching libertarians in a successful, content, socially democratic country is the definition of schadenfreude.
“Oh, er, its not that people are happy, they er, just think they are”
“Yes people live long and healthily, in a low crime environment with low unemployment, good economic growth and the world’s best education system, but er, the taxi’s are so expensive!”
You guys are great.
Comment by Rich — Tue, Jul 31st, 2007 @ 10:36 am
I’m been very happy with public transport in Helsinki, but then I’ve been mostly living in Vallila and Töölö.
From where were your European acquaintances who were shocked with the lack of public transport in Helsinki, Kristian?
By the way, according to a recent study, the greater Helsinki area public transport gets less subsidies from taxpayers than is customary for big European cities. Perhaps the solution for transport woes is more taxes?
Comment by Turjake — Tue, Jul 31st, 2007 @ 11:24 am
Yes people live long and healthily
Well, those do that are not killed by poor healthcare or insufficient emergency services.
in a low crime environment
“Finland has an exceptionally high homicide rate compared to other
Scandinavian (and Western European) countries.”
(http://www.om.fi/optula/uploads/u54beg.pdf)
with low unemployment
What?
the world’s best education system
This has been debated on FFT many times and the conclusion is that our system is not that great. Not bad, but certainly nothing special either. The best in the world? Hardly.
Comment by mh — Tue, Jul 31st, 2007 @ 11:44 am
The problems of public transportation in Helsinki are
1. infrequency
2. lousy and shabby busses and metros that are typical for the third world countries
The solution is not to medicate users with happiness pills, but to improve the investment on the busses and metros. I understand it’s difficult considering still Finland is a developing country. Comparison to other developed countries in Europe may be unfair in this sense. But still instead of happiness medication, Finns need to know the reality.
Comment by european — Tue, Jul 31st, 2007 @ 12:45 pm
#24 has a good point. Actually Finland has very high homocide, rape rate compared to other countries in Europe, Asia, America (except US.). And number of assaults reported will shock you. About ten times higher than other normal countries. I guess this high homocides, rape and assaults are basically connected to alcoholism. Still Finns masturbate imagining the country with low criminality… The 8th wonder of the world.
Comment by european — Tue, Jul 31st, 2007 @ 12:49 pm
From tourist point of view the problem is that a a bus network isn’t really as easy to use and understand as the traditional metro/city train network you have in cities like Paris/London/Berlin/Munich/Washington DC, etc.
It starts with simple things as finding the bus station and right direction of buses. Esp. if you don’t speak the local language nor know the places buses go to.
Also it’s a lot simpler to find a good route with the traditional hold-in-your-hand color-map than you normally get with a decent metro network.
Locals of course know how to use reittiopas & co to find the perfect bus connection from A to B at 2am in the night. Also locals tend to use the same routes 95% of the time - which means locals aren’t even aware of the (time consuming) problems tourists face.
Comment by tpoint — Tue, Jul 31st, 2007 @ 1:42 pm
Another plus of a good metro network is the comfort-level of a warm and cozy subway station - with the grab-a-coffee-on-the-way (TM) kioski.
This doesn’t really compare with the snow-or-rain-in-your-face (TM) bus stop that you’re mostly stuck with in the Helsinki greater area - especially in Espoo.
Comment by tpoint — Tue, Jul 31st, 2007 @ 1:47 pm
#24
Actually actually according to this http://www.benbest.com/lifeext/murder.html
Finland is the 9th safest country for murder.
Also additionally in Finland we kill almost exclusively people we know, which means random attacks are unlikely, which means safety.
Damn, looks like you’re wrong.
The buses do suck though and HKL needs to be dethroned because it is one of few actually very soviet things about Helsinki.
Comment by philtard — Tue, Jul 31st, 2007 @ 2:00 pm
Turjake: “From where were your European acquaintances who were shocked with the lack of public transport in Helsinki, Kristian?”
Ha! Perhaps that was a misleading statement on my part. They live in Switzerland, BUT they are Finnish expats who’ve lived abroad for a rather long time—a few decades.
Of course, with their Swiss Francs, they can spend rather freely in Finland. Regardless, they’re not foolish enough to overspend. What rational person is?
I think Pikku Porsas already answered that one in #10
By the way, I was initially shocked by the survey results—not them. They already know the deal in Finland. That’s why they don’t live here.
http://www.vbz.ch/vbz_opencms/opencms/vbz/english/ZVVnighttime/
FYI—5cf = 3e. But if you earn Swiss Francs, it’s like paying ‘our’ equivalent of less-than-two euros for the whole night.
Turjake: “By the way, according to a recent study, the greater Helsinki area public transport gets less subsidies from taxpayers than is customary for big European cities. Perhaps the solution for transport woes is more taxes?”
Yes, but since other European cities/countries can (more sufficiently) subsidize their networks with lesser overall tax percentages, then why can’t Finland do the same?
http://www.greaterzuricharea.ch/default_en.asp?pgn=/content/04/04_001en.asp
Finland is the Best Country in the World(tm), so it should be possible, right?
Comment by Kristian — Tue, Jul 31st, 2007 @ 2:54 pm
Kristian, when you referred to your European acquaintances, I got the idea they were of several nationalities, and thus capable of actually comparing Helsinki public transit service to the general European level. But I guess it was just some guy from Zurich after all.
Also, perhaps you should read your own links, so you wouldn’t have ask so many questions:
“Roughly three million people live in the Greater Zurich Area, making it one of Europe’s most densely populated regions.”
About a million people live in the greater Helsinki area, and the population density is not particularly high. Public transport is excellent only in places where the pop. density is sufficient, namely in central Helsinki.
My suggestion of a tax hike was made in jest. However, the fact is that more public money needs to be invested in mass transit to improve the quality of the service.
Comment by Turjake — Tue, Jul 31st, 2007 @ 7:28 pm
Actually actually according to this http://www.benbest.com/lifeext/murder.html
Finland is the 9th safest country for murder.
Damn, looks like you’re wrong.
It was the Finnish national research institute of legal policy that I quoted. You’re very keen to trash their research based on statistics by a retired taxi driver. Are Finnish research institutes that untrustworthy? Well, at least Mr. Best had good references. Unfortunately I was unable to check them because they (at least the WHO report) don’t seem to be available on the Internet.
Besides, even Mr. Best’s stats show that Norway has significantly lower murder rate than Finland and Sweden’s murder rate is only half of Finland’s rate. This supports the claim regarding Scandinavia I quoted from the research institute’s publication. I don’t know what happened to Denmark in Mr. Best’s stats as it is specifically mentioned in the research institute’s publication. Best’s stats do however show that Copenhagen’s murder rate is only one third of Helsinki’s. (In fact, Helsinki is ranked the tenth worst city by Mr. Best.)
Comment by mh — Tue, Jul 31st, 2007 @ 7:58 pm
#31- “However, the fact is that more public money needs to be invested in mass transit to improve the quality of the service.”
Why is it always more public money (tax) needed to solve any and every problem in this place? Privatise the system fully, open up free and fair competition for the routes and stop making me pay for some crappy public transportation system that I don’t use or need in a far away capital city.
Comment by Punter — Tue, Jul 31st, 2007 @ 8:42 pm
24 and 32: I decided to do some digging on my own and came up with these:
Murder:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita
Rape:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_percap-crime-rapes-per-capita
Finland is #30 in murders and #21 in rapes.
Estonia is #7 and #32 respectively
The tourist paradise Seychelles is #17 and #2
I’ll grant you that the occurance of violent crimes have been rising disturbingly fast this year and no one seems to have any idea what causes it, apart from the common denominator of alcohol. Also traffic accidents have surged dramatically, also probably significantly influenced by alcohol consumption. I have no idea if alcohol consumption has also significantly risen this year.
Comment by Fat Bastard — Tue, Jul 31st, 2007 @ 9:06 pm
#5 The Dutch system is very interesting indeed: the “strippenkaart” is valid on public transport all over The Netherlands - except, apparently, on the national railways. The same tickets that you can use on city transport in Amsterdam will also let you travel regionally in Eindoven, for instance, but not on the trains to connect the two cities, or even from Schipol Airport to the center of Amsterdam.
It’s not a major inconvenience, but something of an oddity!
Comment by Kimmo W. — Tue, Jul 31st, 2007 @ 9:57 pm
Turjake: “I got the idea they were of several nationalities, and thus capable of actually comparing Helsinki public transit service to the general European level. But I guess it was just some guy from Zurich after all.”
No, I’d say that, in absence of detailed knowledge, you are forming your own misconceptions and then projecting them.
All-night public transit is common throughout most central European cities—even smaller ones than Helsinki. Most people know this…but perhaps not you.
Comment by Kristian — Tue, Jul 31st, 2007 @ 10:57 pm
Greetings from Berlin!
Today I had a great opportunity to compare taxi prices as the trips from home to Helsinki-Vantaa and from Tegel to our hotel were roughly the same (16 and 17 km respectively):
Helsinki:
Base charge: 4€
Total: 22.50€
Berlin:
Base charge: 3€
Total: 17€
Berlin is clearly cheaper, but nothing to tie your panties im a knot over, IMHO.
By the way, I paid 15 € for 5 hours of wi-fi and I’m wastimg that precious time here. Sheesh.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Wed, Aug 1st, 2007 @ 12:23 am
Thanks for the update. I lived for a while in Berlin. Yes, taxi fares between Finland and Germany tend to converge for long daytime trips, like to the airport.
But compare a few short trips in the evening and see the difference.
Also, enjoy the reasonably-priced dining and all-night tram/bus service in Berlin
Comment by Kristian — Wed, Aug 1st, 2007 @ 12:49 am
Kristian, the Finnish taxes are about the same as the EU15 average … oh, never mind.
Comment by doh — Wed, Aug 1st, 2007 @ 1:24 am
Berlin has, by the way, the most expensive public transportation in Europe.
Comment by doh — Wed, Aug 1st, 2007 @ 1:28 am
#39 Nope. You have to consider all taxes— including VAT, Auto, etc.—not just income taxes. Finland is at the top.
#40 Wrong again. Zones A+B+C in Berlin cost the same as Helsinki/Vantaa/Espoo. But most importantly, the service is available 24/7, as with most European cities. Helsinki is one of the few (perhaps the only one of its size) that can’t afford to operate at night.
http://www.bvg.de/index.php/en/Bvg/Detail/folder/764/rewindaction/Index/id/2904/name/VBB+Environment+Ticket+-+Monthly+Pass
Comment by Kristian — Wed, Aug 1st, 2007 @ 5:25 am
By the way the, the most expensive public transportation in Europe is in Berlin and the cheapest in Helsinki:
http://www.hs.fi/kaupunki/artikkeli/Helsingin+joukkoliikenne+on+Euroopan+metropolien+halvimpia/1135228941748
Oh, never mind …
By the way, have you heard that the total tax burden in Finland was last year 43.5% of the GDP. At least the Danes, Swedes and Belgians pay more taxes. What kind of a top and ultra high is that? The average figure among the EU15 countries is a bit over 40%, but because not all countries include retirement payments into the figures the actual percentage may be more. Oh, never mind …
Here’s something interesting off-topic I stumbled upon, by the way. According to the IMF statistics Finland was in 1989 the ninth richest country in the world (PPP GDP per capita). By 1993 it had fallen 11 places to being 20th. That’s a more dramatic drop than has fallen upon any rich country ever in such short a period. Last year Finland had risen to 13th place and the way economy is growing it will be close to the ninth place again by 2009. So after twenty years the signs of a catastrophe are all over the place again. Now it’s the time to get the hell out of the country …
Comment by doh — Wed, Aug 1st, 2007 @ 10:50 am
And, by the way, do you know which three rich European countries has experienced the slowest economic growth during the past 10 and 20 years. Yes, you guessed it: Italy, Switzerland and Germany.
Comment by doh — Wed, Aug 1st, 2007 @ 11:00 am
And, by the way, the Finns are a bout the least happy people on earth. And this survey was not done in that always so ridiculous way of asking the people themselves. All I had to do was gather the information from the objective views (thanks Punter, European, and Kristian in particular!) from this thread.
And now to something completely different: Did you know that the homicide and suicide figures are smaller in Helsinki, not to mention places like Turku, than in Stockholm, say? The reason why Finland’s overall figures are so high is those takakammarin pojat in eastern and northern Finland. I blame Keskusta and its regional politics for the embarrassing statistics. I really do. Why keep people there killing themselves and each other with our tax money when they could be living in Nurmijärvi’s more civilized environment?
Comment by doh — Wed, Aug 1st, 2007 @ 11:38 am
Here are some homicide figures (murders and manslaughters per 100 000 inhabitants 2000-2003):
Länsi-Uusimaa: 0,6
Itä-Uusimaa: 1,1
Helsinki metropolitan area: 2,2
Kainuu 5,0
Pohjois-Karjala: 5,4
Lappi: 5,4
For comparison’s sake the figure in Stockholm is 2,8 and in Berlin 2,3 (the American figures are too embarrassing to mention). That would make Helsinki something like two times safer than Stockholm and four times safer than Berlin in this particular respect if the homicides were committed randomly (which they are not, in Helsinki you can effectively avoid the danger by choosing your friends).
So, are the eastern and northern parts just too dangerous to visit? Nope, by far the most common homicide takes place between local people drinking together (for the second week ;-). Other family members are also killed on regular basis. Actual murders, particularly those committed against innocent bystanders are extremely rare even there.
Comment by doh — Wed, Aug 1st, 2007 @ 1:14 pm
100% of the references presented in this thread so far disagree with you. Look, here’s my figures:
Stockholm 2,8
Helsinki 150,0
Helsinki loses.
Comment by mh — Wed, Aug 1st, 2007 @ 7:07 pm
Yes, yes, facts are for suckers. Why are you guys always so predictable?
Stockholm and Berlin:
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/hosb1203.pdf
Finland and Hellsinki:
http://www.optula.om.fi/uploads/dsp8j495bn5.pdf
Comment by doh — Wed, Aug 1st, 2007 @ 8:32 pm
I thought the Tuborg guzzling, cigarette puffing Danes were the supposedly happiest in Europe these days.
I think public transport in Helsinki is not bad at all. Finland as a whole, and the even the Capital region, suffers from having a spread out population which does not make it easy to provide public transport efficiently. So, all things considered I think they do a good job. The price is still not bad either… for instance in London a 30 day transport card for just central London costs 126€, in Oslo they pay 90€/month, Copenhagen 150€(!.. public transport is rubbish in CPH too in my experience)/month, New York around 62€ for a month.
That said, I am surprised it is number 1 also. It’s not bad though!
Comment by JG — Wed, Aug 1st, 2007 @ 10:24 pm
Hi again. Picked up a bottle of Rioja from KaDeWe. Turned out I would have gotten it for 20% less from Alko. I’m going to enjoy it anyway. Cheers!
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Wed, Aug 1st, 2007 @ 11:07 pm
“I think public transport in Helsinki is not bad at all.”
I agree that it’s good in the daytime, but it’s not so good at night. In that way, public transit in Helsinki isn’t a good value…despite its reasonable price.
I’d rather pay 86-Euros for a monthly pass in Berlin (A+B+C) and have 24-hour service.
Hel/Van/Esp costs 81-Euros, but at night you’re at the mercy of ripoff taxis—about 20-Euros each time.
http://www.bvg.de/index.php/en/Bvg/Detail/folder/764/rewindaction/Index/id/2904/name/VBB+Environment+Ticket+-+Monthly+Pass
Plus, those Landkreis deals are good too. It would be like adding Riihimäki to the Helsinki zone. Berlin’s system is really a good value in that way. Nothing in Finland can match it.
So is Dresden’s for that matter—42-Euros and 24-hrs.
Oh yes, and Franklin might get his occasional bottle of expensive wine cheaper at Alko, but the weekly—perhaps multiple-times-per-week—of dining-out would probably save him between 500-Euros and 1000-Euros in Berlin vs. Finland throughout the course of a year.
Comment by Kristian — Thu, Aug 2nd, 2007 @ 1:25 am
Berlin does have 3,5 million people though, so perhaps it is more economically affordable (and necessary) to operate a service late at night. HKL does run night buses though.
It is the public transport in other areas (outside of the capital region) that has really deteriorated. It would be completely impossible to rely on it these days where I am from(sadly).
Comment by JG — Thu, Aug 2nd, 2007 @ 4:01 pm
JG—even though Berlin has 3.5m, much (maybe even most) consists of former East Germany which is at the receiving end of transfer payments.
Nevertheless, what about isolated and comparatively poorer Dresden with its mere 400,000 population then? Here’s an example. Even 24-hours on Sundays…
http://www.dvb.de/fahrplan/fahrplan_pdf/pdf20070731125852/dataaferi/afp_32182__ev11.pdf
In my opinion, Helsinki’s sparse night schedule isn’t up-to-par with western standards…nor eastern standards for that matter.
Me thinks the problems result from both economic conditions (overtaxation) and low expectations among the population.
Comment by Kristian — Thu, Aug 2nd, 2007 @ 4:55 pm
Kristian, I actually agree with you in that the fact that there isn’t a more wide-ranging night time schedule could be party due to expectations, although in Helsinki municipality itself it is quite good I think. I do disagree about overtaxation’s effects on public transport in Hki though (surely if would all be running free of charge 24/7 if that were the case!)
In the case of Berlin, whether most of the 3,5 million are in the east or west is not really that relevant as they are still all having the need to get about.
I still do think that the demographics and geographic situation of the capital region makes it harder (and more expensive) to provide a wide-ranging service (especially in the night), outside of Helsinki-proper people are very spread out. Although, unfortunately the government seems to think that making this situation worse still is not a problem, e.g. with authorising Helsinki’s annexation of part of Sipoo.
Comment by JG — Thu, Aug 2nd, 2007 @ 6:58 pm
“I actually agree with you in that the fact that there isn’t a more wide-ranging night time schedule could be party due to expectations, although in Helsinki municipality itself it is quite good I think. I do disagree about overtaxation’s effects on public transport in Hki though (surely if would all be running free of charge 24/7 if that were the case!)”
I think Antti said it best a few posts ago:
“There’s enough public transit in Helsinki to get you to work by 8, back home at 4…”
A high-tax, socialistic system ensures that you have the basics, but nothing else. If you want surplus luxury, then you need wealth. This requires lower-taxes….unless you’ve got oil or something like that.
Comment by Kristian — Thu, Aug 2nd, 2007 @ 11:49 pm
Kristian, I will have to concede that dining out is a neverending party in Berlin, at least in the lower end of the price spectrum. I just had a reasonably tasty Asian fusion meal for 3,5€. My better half’s schnitzel was 5€. And this right next to one of the biggest tourist traps.
I think that this is a Berlin thing, though. More prosperous Rhineland has higher prices.
And by the way, lest we forget, Germany is definitely a high-tax social welfare state. First such one, in fact.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Fri, Aug 3rd, 2007 @ 12:23 am
Kristian, I have to disagree with that assessment of Helsinki public transport. It’s far superior to that. I only wish that public transport outside of the capital region was as good.
Berlin is indeed a great city, completely different to how I expected it when I first went. I really must go back again soon.
Comment by JG — Fri, Aug 3rd, 2007 @ 1:18 am
Well, that was Antti’s assessment. He also stated,
“paying taxi while returning from some vice nest at early hours just serves everybody right.”
So if you have too much fun, then you deserve the taxi ripoff.
Comment by Kristian — Fri, Aug 3rd, 2007 @ 2:34 am
Oh by the way, you guys did read they’re going to raise the taxi fares, didn’t you? Was in the YLE news yesterday. Link (Finnish):
http://www.yle.fi/uutiset/haku.php?action=page&id=256581&search=taksien
Comment by hnd — Fri, Aug 3rd, 2007 @ 8:05 am
So if you have too much fun, then you deserve the taxi ripoff.
haha, Yes, I agree, this is a reflection that there could be something in your expectations point.
We don’t seem to see it as unreasonable that it’s your own problem to get home should you wish to do so in a drunken state at 3.30 in the morning.
Still, I remember London was dreadful for late night transport (it was pretty unpleasant during daytime for that matter) and there’s is one of the most expensive in the world. It could well be down more to good planning and management than taxation or fares.
Comment by JG — Fri, Aug 3rd, 2007 @ 4:21 pm
“< i>We don’t seem to see it as unreasonable that it’s your own problem to get home should you wish to do so in a drunken state at 3.30 in the morning.”
What about sober then? You think it’s only good for the economy to spend money in restaurants between, say, 19:00 and 1:30, but not thereafter? What about those who prefer to work a night shift? Taxi ripoff for them, too?
We’re paying roughly the same amount for our transit tickets as in other European cities, but we’re not getting the full benefits they are. Shouldn’t we also get our money’s worth?
You want people to use public transit, right? Why not make it an attractive option for them?
Comment by Kristian — Fri, Aug 3rd, 2007 @ 9:08 pm
Kristian, I was actually agreeing with you!!! My point was to agree with your view that it is partly to do with expectations!!!! Like you, I do think that that plays a certain role.
Still, I think night traffic is not bad in Helsinki. I can’t say what it is like for Grankulla, Espoo and Vantaa, but I could understand from HKL’s point of view that it would be hard to provide an extensive service due to the low population density.
We do pay roughly the same (and in some cases considerably less), but we are often far fewer people (and thus fare payers) in comparison = less income overall, money has to therefore go further to provide the same range of service, made harder by the relative low population density and spread-out nature of Helsinki+Vantaa+Espoo.
There is always room for improvement however, that is for sure.
Comment by JG — Sat, Aug 4th, 2007 @ 4:50 am
Please. I just returned from Finland and the public transportation is terrific. Whiners should try getting around the US via public transportation. Seems to me that some of you don’t realize how lucky you are. Look around the world and appreciate what you have.
Comment by geewhiz — Thu, Sep 20th, 2007 @ 4:00 pm