Finns buy some of EU’s most expensive food and drink
Take in to consideration that Ireland’s and Denmark’s salaries are significantly higher, Finns are spending way too much (possibly the most in the EU27?) of their income on basic food and beverages…
Finland has the highest price levels for food and non-alcoholic drinks behind those in Denmark and Ireland, Eurostat said in a statement Friday.
The highest price levels for alcoholic beverages were registered in Ireland, where they are 181 per cent of the EU27 average, and the second-highest in Finland, with 170 per cent.
Poor people and low income earners are affected the most. Figure that if the average person spends 3,500-euros/year on food in central Europe, then that number can easily reach 5K-euro in Finland—or even over 6K-euro if restaurant visits are considered.
It’s very substantial considering the tiny net salaries—and that things like cars and transportation cost about double in Finland. Generally, everything is more expensive in Finland; some items only a little bit more, but others significantly so. Ever notice all those people picking bottles out of the trash for the 15ct deposit?
Those aren’t just destitute alcoholics doing it; most are normal people. The overtaxed economy and protectionism keep competitors out of the country. Ultimately, the system helps no one :-/
Comment by Kristian — Sun, Jul 15th, 2007 @ 2:33 pm
Not to suspect libertarians of misunderstanding statistics but could you still link to an actual purchase power comparison - I seem to remember that Finland was slightly above the average of EU15 with twice the purchase power compared with new members. I could be wrong of course - Phil I’m sure you can find the table from Eurostat and post it here. Would be nice for you to dispel my socialist doubts with cold facts!
Kristian, actually, how can we be more protectionist than the other EU members? I have understood that historically speaking the Nordic countries have been quite pro-free trade (apart from agriculture, but that is now out of our hands). I believe that our market failure (and there certainly is one in the retail sector) is just that: too few cartel loving players in too small a pond - I don’t know what the government could do here, shouldn’t we just wait for the invisible hand. And wait. And wait…
Comment by mjr — Sun, Jul 15th, 2007 @ 2:49 pm
While you are at it, why not add the figures for taxation and consumption in general? You paint such a picture of Finnish destitution and starvation which is bit hard to relate to the real world of this affluent, solidly middle class country. Certainly any European comparison won’t find us in any Albanian class, and we well know all those surveys (never mentioned on this site, by coincidence no doubt, you just never read the newspapers or browse the internet when these particular news are published though everything negative miraculously is noticed…) that constantly put Finland on top globally on various fields. Strange that those things are possible in this hunger ridden, communist country! Or could it then be that this site is so ideologically skewed, so ideologically obsessed that it can’t handle any information contrary to its world view…
Comment by mjr — Sun, Jul 15th, 2007 @ 3:08 pm
“this site is so ideologically skewed, so ideologically obsessed that it can’t handle any information contrary to its world view”
your BBC view is falling apart? How strange that you think another view is skewed when you are not willing to think out side the BBC provided box.
Comment by winter “Yea, Proton Power, now in remission†— Sun, Jul 15th, 2007 @ 3:13 pm
Well, I don’t know how BBC fits into this, but….
mjr, you think that Eurostat’s findings are insignificant? Nothing should be done? Just keep going like before?
Of course nobody suggests that Finland is in the same class as Albania—after all, Finland has always been firmly attached to prosperous western Europe—but in terms of comparing with western Europe, arguably, one could say Finland is at the bottom. And not just for poor people…
http://www.finlandforthought.net/2006/12/07/finlands-net-worth-per-capita-lowest-in-old-eu-by-alot/
http://www.finlandforthought.net/2007/04/28/ostovoima-low-purchasing-power-for-highly-educated-in-finland/
Comment by Kristian — Sun, Jul 15th, 2007 @ 3:20 pm
Kristian, while their salaries might justify it, I haven’t seen many Nokia engineers fishing for bottles from glass dumpsters.
winnie, I don’t need the BBC to tell me that my country is doing quite well overall. As a matter of fact, I don’t think that the Beeb bothers to cover Finnish affluence very much. I can see it with my own eyes. Some of us don’t replace reality with the output of a TV network, Faux Noose-boy.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Sun, Jul 15th, 2007 @ 3:25 pm
winter, isn’t it dangerous to stay off your medication for such a long period? This BBC obsession seems quite bizarre, which is much said in the context of your many colourful obsessions - one feels even slightly sorry for someone with so pronounced opinions and so little, hmm, anything else. Next you will no doubt be blathering on about the “human shields”, the Finnish peacekeepers that you in your lovely way want to see killed. What do they put to the libertarian tap water? - it might be a government conspiracy actually: when was the last time anyone encountered a rational, intelligently thinking libertarian? They didn’t use to rarities. Hmm, strange…
Comment by mjr — Sun, Jul 15th, 2007 @ 3:26 pm
“What do they put to the libertarian tap water?”
Just to clarify, winter is not a Libertarian.
Comment by Kristian — Sun, Jul 15th, 2007 @ 3:31 pm
Well, Kristian I suppose you won’t believe this as it’s from that Communist front EK, but here goes:
http://www.ek.fi/tupo/kv_vertailut/hintataso_ja_ostovoima/ostovoima.php
As Franklin mentioned not only statistics but empirical observations really point to one direction and one direction only: Finland is a highly affluent country with a dynamic economy (you know I think I’ll post here next the GDP growth figures for the last 10 years just for the hell of it!) that not only manages to be a high growth, high tech society but one with a surprisingly large measure of social justice (with a level playing fied as our high social mobility figures show). I just don’t really understand what’s the minus side - apart from the fact that we don’t have billionaire, as we don’t, yet, have slums either, nor slum schools, I’m quite happy with the status quo.
Comment by mjr — Sun, Jul 15th, 2007 @ 3:32 pm
Incidentally, I’m posting this from my in-laws’ garden in Central Finland over the GSM network (first in the world). Not bad for the third world. But hey, I thought that destitute countries had poor infrastructure.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Sun, Jul 15th, 2007 @ 3:33 pm
It would be more interesting to know why this is the case rather than simply taking it as evidence that something is wrong in the state on Finland. Taxation is not the likely reason since Finnish taxes are not especially high compared to Europe in general when it comes to food. Drink may be different and may be skewing the figures. The fact that alcohol is expensive is not obviously a bad thing.
Of course food may be expensive because Finland is the northernmost EU country and is not very fertile. In that case food could be expensive because we need to import most of it and it’s costly to produce. That’s hardly a criticism of Finland unless we want to shift it South a bit.
Ireland’s high cost is harder to understand since it’s a very fertile country and has low tax rates.
Comment by Finnsense — Sun, Jul 15th, 2007 @ 3:37 pm
mjr, we do have at least one billionaire in Antti Herlin and the way things are going, more will be popping up like mushrooms when it’s raining. Which isn’t bad at all.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Sun, Jul 15th, 2007 @ 3:38 pm
Ok, here goes, I think Finland outperforms most of Europe since 1995 with basically tieing with the USA - not bad for this Albania of nations, this people’s republic, this Finland!
http://www.stat.fi/til/vtp/2006/vtp_2006_2007-07-12_tie_001_en.html
Comment by mjr — Sun, Jul 15th, 2007 @ 3:43 pm
Finnsense, the food retail business is highly cartellised these days. It wasn’t always so. In my childhood, the retailers in my granparnents’ little industrial town had fierce competition and you could get many food items at half of the prices in Helsinki. And this was when the welfare state was at its peak. Today they’re getting along fine and you get fleeced just like in Helsinki.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Sun, Jul 15th, 2007 @ 3:47 pm
Finnsense made a very good point: taxes certainly are not the reason - but for some reason our market clearly underperforms. It’s absolutely too cartellized but what can the state do? As it’s not supposed to interfere. You go to any shop and (apart from Lidl) you’ll have the same selection, largely the same prizes - the competition just does not work very well.
Comment by mjr — Sun, Jul 15th, 2007 @ 3:49 pm
“Taxation is not the likely reason since Finnish taxes are not especially high compared to Europe in general”
Actually, Finland’s 17% food VAT is surpassed by no one. (or maybe Denmark; I thought it has 25% food VAT, but it’s not shown here).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VAT#EU_countries
But it’s not just food VAT that we need to consider; rather it’s the overall level of taxation in society. And there’s also protectionism—how long did it take for Lidl to get licensed to operate? Or IKEA?
“Drink may be different and may be skewing the figures. The fact that alcohol is expensive is not obviously a bad thing.”
Unless you consider binge drinking—a common phenomenon among all the high-price alcohol countries. And you can consider that welfare pays for the high-priced alcohol that alcoholics buy.
Regardless, alcohol wasn’t specifically mentioned in this Eurostat survey.
mjr, in terms of general purchasing power (ostovoima), Finland does indeed surpass countries like Slovakia and Slovenia—even western European ones like Portugal—so I guess everything is fine. As for GDP growth, one would hope it’s nice and high, because Finland’s got lots of catching-up to do…
GDP Growth
Rank_Country_____Percent__Year
1___Azerbaijan_____32.50__2006 est.
2___Mauritania_____19.40__2006 est.
3___Guinea_______18.60__2005 est.
4___Angola_______14.00__2006 est.
5___Turkmenistan__13.00__2006 est.
6___Trinidad____ __12.60__2006 est.
7___Latvia________11.90__2006
8___Estonia_______11.40__2006
.
.
.
96__Nepal________5.00___2006 est.
97__Burundi______5.00___2006 est.
98__Iran_________5.00___2006 est.
99__Gambia______5.00___2006 est.
100_Finland______4.90___2006 est.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28real%29_growth_rate
Comment by Kristian — Sun, Jul 15th, 2007 @ 3:51 pm
Yep, Franklin, I guess we’ll get several new billionaires quite soon and Kristian can retire a satisfied ex-critic of the formerly socialist Finland… I would just not have too much of a good thing - the US is positively flowing with billionaires and combines that with not having a universal health coverage and abandoning millions of people to hopeless slums which really do compare with Albania. Maybe it’s just a coincidence.
Comment by mjr — Sun, Jul 15th, 2007 @ 4:00 pm
Kristian, how do you mean lots of catching up? We are quite squarely in the middle of the highly industrialized Western nations and with these trends getting nearer the top all the time. It is true that Finland is a great postwar success story - in 1945 we really were dirt poor, having to pay huge war reparations and relocating ca 13% of our population. From that zero hour we have come to lead the world in several essential fields. This happened along establishing an efficient welfare state. The dirt poor period coincides with us NOT having welfare structures. Hmm, strange that, eh?
Comment by mjr — Sun, Jul 15th, 2007 @ 4:15 pm
mjr, I am certainly not opposed to government intervention when it comes to cartels.
Kristian, you forgot Germany, Switzerland and the US from your list.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Sun, Jul 15th, 2007 @ 4:17 pm
mjr, it’s true that growth is good. And so are welfare structures that help the needy. But we have to be careful how we interpret GDP growth.
For example, we can say that Finland’s GDP growth is higher than Germany’s or even America’s, but those are already relatively mature economies with much higher purchasing power than Finland—and correspondingly higher standards-of-living.
I’m not saying that Finland’s growth is bad—or that the country is a failure, because obviously it’s not. I’m only saying that there are areas that need improvement.
What’s the point in continuing to pay significantly more for food and restaurant services, double-price for cars, having sparse public transit, etc… Why not make adjustments to the economy so that the standard-of-living can be more closely in-line with western Europe?
Comment by Kristian — Sun, Jul 15th, 2007 @ 4:23 pm
Yeah, he kind of did forget those countries:
USA 143rd
Switzerland 161st
Germany 180th
I guess the government should interfere but how: they can’t just order, “hey, Kesko and Sokos start competing”…
Comment by mjr — Sun, Jul 15th, 2007 @ 4:26 pm
Kristian, hmm, why don’t you link us to actual standard of living comparisons instead of to those just in your head? I don’t think those voices are the gallery really… I believe that when one factors in such things as crime, feeling of security (those 7 year olds travelling by themselves to excellent publicly funded schools in the Helsinki area, prams left outside shops etc. etc), access to nature and good quality public services that Finland is very competetive indeed as all this is combined with being a highly developed Western economy.
Comment by mjr — Sun, Jul 15th, 2007 @ 4:31 pm
Just for the record, I have never said “Finnish peacekeepers that you in your lovely way want to see killed.”
I just was the first to notice they were now “Human Shields”.
Not helping anyone but Iran and some thugs and killers.
Comment by winter “Yea, Proton Power, now in remission†— Sun, Jul 15th, 2007 @ 6:09 pm
Just throwing in my two euro-cents:
I come from a southern European country. I live in the US. I am moving to Finland. It so happens that there is a pretty girl involved, but believe you me, I have visited Suomi many times and that is not the only reason I am moving there.
Having experienced the corrupt wishful thinking of the southern Europe welfare state and the dog-eat-dog free-for-all in the US, I believe that a social support system that works is better than both make-believe welfare and the US system, where the wealthier members of society barely pretend to care.
I am actually planning to start a business in Finland, and I honestly do not mind paying high taxes, since I know that I (and society) will get my money’s worth back.
Taxes is what the wealthy have to “endure” for the privilege of living in a stable society free of social unrest.
As for the food and drink costs, Finnsense said it best at #10.
Also, I found #15 comical. You do not even attempt to compare Finland to similar countries. 4.90% is actually high for a developed western European economy, especially one that is not dependent on tourism or cash crops, but rather long-term economic activities such as high-tech, industrial engineering and a developed services sector.
Comment by Herkku — Sun, Jul 15th, 2007 @ 7:06 pm
This “Well at least we’re not Haiti” attitude that’s so frequent on here, is comical. Anytime anything critical about Finland is mentioned, it’s always, “Hey it could be worse!” Maybe it’s a Finnish/Lutheran thing. Or maybe it’s an American thing to always think one can do better.
To have the third most expensive food while having low salaries is a problem, but here’s the two reactions…
“We need high food costs and low salaries to keep this welfare state afloat. Cause if food were cheap and salaries were higher, this whole thing would come crashing down.”
OR, “High food costs with our low salaries is a real problem, poor people gotta eat too! Let’s do something about this.”
What plagues this country is all these welfare statists who believe the welfare state is extremely fragile and any slight nudge will tip it over, so few propose change, everyone supports the status quo. The welfare state is like constantly walking on thin ice.
Comment by Phil — Sun, Jul 15th, 2007 @ 7:19 pm
Phil #25- You’ve hit the nail on the head there. It is all about maintaining the status quo, the idea that things were worse in the past so we must be doing it right now. All the time we hear how poor we all were, the great post war boom etc etc etc. Again it is all about accepting mediocracy and settling for less than we could have.
Too often, striving for more is deemed as greed here too which always mak me laugh. If you want a bigger home, nicer car, more travel, a second motorbike whatever, it is seen as greedy.
Yes indeed the welfare statists are afraid of change (reform) and generally look upon it with suspicion. I have never quite understood this mentality in Finland, a fear to experiment and develop things, to realize times have changes and to accept (consider) negative feedback from people with different experiences and opinions. For so long this place was full of Finns and Finns only so they knew no better. Today however, as more news is spread and more foreigners have come to Finland, it’s only normal to expect they might have views and experiences of their own to share and offer. Now if only Finns will take their heads out of the forests and listen then perhaps a happy and effective compromise can be reached….. A new economic model????
Comment by Punter — Sun, Jul 15th, 2007 @ 8:06 pm
Too often, striving for more is deemed as greed here
Yeah I’ve noticed this. I think it has something to do with Finns’ Lutheran upbringing maybe?
Comment by Phil — Sun, Jul 15th, 2007 @ 9:12 pm
Herkku: except you’re never gonna get your money’s worth in Finland as a foreigner. Foreigners essentially pay taxes without a full access to public services; there’s always deductions of all kinds or downright zero coverage, simply because you’re a foreigner. One example brought forth by Daryl Taylor mentions how foreigners will get their paid maternity leave, simply because labor laws apply across the board, but not the maternity package, because the State doesn’t consider a foreigner as covered by their national plan, for instance.
Comment by Martin-Éric — Sun, Jul 15th, 2007 @ 10:11 pm
Well, I know you libertarians don’t much read, but did it just completely pass you what we have discussed on this thread? It’s not really that Finland is better than Albania (which it seems where you come from, debating that issue I mean) but that we are better than the good old US of A, among many, many others. There really are not much more advanced societies when it comes to combining a highly dynamic economy with a high degree of social justice and social mobility. Yes, no billionaires yet, not much competition in the retail market, and Kristian has to pay way too much for his bad wine and second rate lager - but other than that, this is really a great society! This is maybe hubris to say, I can easily see that, but you can’t really seriously argue that we on the opposing side would be saying that “at least we are better than Outer Mongolia”, for God’s sakes. Can’t you read?
Comment by mjr — Sun, Jul 15th, 2007 @ 10:17 pm
I have said this before but debating libertarians is a LOT like debating Marxists-Leninists - no empirical facts get through, because the Theory dictates for them what can be regarded as a fact, and no observations that contradict it can be accepted… A closed loop. It’s sheer thickheaded stupidity but saves one a lot of trouble of trying to understand the world: you don’t need to understand any outside reality, the only thing you need to see is the doctrine. Amazing.
Comment by mjr — Sun, Jul 15th, 2007 @ 10:23 pm
I think most people don’t realize how big of an effect high fuel taxes have on food prices.
Comment by Jani Kuusisto — Sun, Jul 15th, 2007 @ 10:35 pm
Herkku,
good luck with your business. I hope you have the same enthusiasm after you’ve been here for a while. Those high consumer prices don’t look so bad when you’re only here for a few weeks on vacation. But they add up to many thousands-of-euros over the course of a year.
One thing that works in your favor… If your business eventually succeeds, then you’ll have very little competition from the domestic marketplace. You’ll be able to charge the rest of us ultra-high prices, and we’ll be forced to pay. I don’t know if that will translate to high profits—maybe, maybe not. In any case, it’s a big financial hurdle getting to that point in Finland. Depends on the type of business, I suppose.
On the other hand, if your clientèle is located outside of Finland, then you’ll be at a disadvantage. For example, if you get into a lawsuit with a foreign customer or supplier, you’ll quickly find that Finland’s government has the money you could have otherwise used to defend yourself (legal fees).
Idealism is fine, but realize that the economic systems of ‘corrupt’ southern European welfare states, dog-eat-dog America and ultra-high-tax Finland aren’t the only options. Have you been reading that Finland can’t attract educated professionals and researchers?
I don’t want to dissuade you (after all, any new competition in the consumer market place benefit s us consumers, even if the overall picture is grim
) but you might want to think about why that is so.
Comment by Kristian — Sun, Jul 15th, 2007 @ 10:44 pm
Mjr: To be honest, your defensiveness is also a bit amusing.
Every time a negative study is being commented, you rush in to give another ones that say something else. That would be nice if they actually had something to do with high food prices…
If you find Phil’s negativeness too much to bear go outside for a while or count to ten, because that’s how Phil likes to run his blog. It creates more conversation.
Comment by Jani Kuusisto — Sun, Jul 15th, 2007 @ 10:49 pm
There really are not much more advanced societies when it comes to combining a highly dynamic economy with a high degree of social justice and social mobility.
No one disagrees with you on this. Finland is a great country, so are a lot of countries. But no doubt there are some serious issues that need to discussed, debated, and improved upon. The high price of food/beverage and low salaries is one of them.
Comment by Phil — Sun, Jul 15th, 2007 @ 11:09 pm
Tell me, is Status Quo the number one selling band of all time in Finland?
Comment by Punter — Mon, Jul 16th, 2007 @ 12:21 am
mjr: “It’s sheer thickheaded stupidity but saves one a lot of trouble of trying to understand the world:”
Flattery will get you nowhere!
mjr: “the only thing you need to see is the doctrine. Amazing.”
Maybe so. That reminds me Phil, have you seen the manifesto?
Huh, I can’t find it anywhere. Maybe winter used it to light his grill
Comment by Kristian — Mon, Jul 16th, 2007 @ 12:39 am
“winter used it to light his grill”
Naw, winter had his house demolished, so is now homeless, can I stay with you?
Comment by winter “Yea, Proton Power, now in remission†— Mon, Jul 16th, 2007 @ 1:16 am
Herkku - “Having experienced the corrupt wishful thinking of the southern Europe welfare state and the dog-eat-dog free-for-all in the US, I believe that a social support system that works is better than both make-believe welfare and the US system, where the wealthier members of society barely pretend to care.”
Spoken like someone who is on the engagement/honeymoon side of going to live in Finland, i.e. never lived there just yet. Been there, done that. I hope you’re on the lighter side of the southern euros and wish you good luck.
Comment by hfb — Mon, Jul 16th, 2007 @ 1:37 am
Now while I wouldn’t mind paying less for my food (=noodles
), it made me wonder how would you lower that price? As I am not really any sort of an economic I’m just interested in the fact that if the VAT was lowered for instance wouldn’t that mean it’s out of something else, e.g. public daycare? And if you’d raise peoples salaries wouldn’t that mean the CEO gets less, hence not good?
I mean I have nothing against lower prices and higher salaries, but how would you Kristian or Phil fix the situation? Because as it is I guess I’m just one of those Finns who don’t understand how things could be better
Comment by Kez0nat0r — Mon, Jul 16th, 2007 @ 1:53 am
Good questions Kez0nat0r… You have to realize that high food VAT hurts lower-income people the most—precisely those who benefit from transfer payments. So what’s the sense in collecting the money from them in the first place? And why not just let them have cheaply priced food like elsewhere in Europe?
Otherwise, we just have to give them more transfer payments so they can afford the overpriced food. Again, what’s the sense?
There aren’t many economists who favor food VAT—at least not as high as Finland’s. VAT on food (and even medicine!) is a really bizarre concept when you think about it. I think even the OECD told Finland to lower it, if I remember correctly.
But I guess in a centralized control economy like in the past, it was a way to keep all money flowing….well, back to the center. It’s about control, plain and simple to understand.
Comment by Kristian — Mon, Jul 16th, 2007 @ 2:32 am
#24 Herkku: You come at a good time. Changes are happening. People and government are starting to have a more international perspective. Your name, salary, tax percentage, wealth and capital income will no longer be published, sold and spread around in the internet. Maybe you too will someday be a billionaire, since you already are able to look beyond the borders of only Finland in business.
As Spock says in his Vulcan blessing in Star Trek:
“May you live long and be prosperous”
Comment by Sirkuspelle — Mon, Jul 16th, 2007 @ 10:16 am
#32: “On the other hand, if your clientèle is located outside of Finland, then you’ll be at a disadvantage. For example, if you get into a lawsuit with a foreign customer or supplier, you’ll quickly find that Finland’s government has the money you could have otherwise used to defend yourself (legal fees).”
The court system in Finland is quite politically oriented, not purely justice or human rights oriented. What is wrong/right in the court system in Finland is what is currently fashionable as wrong/right in the political scene. The court recently cited “freedom of speech” when the Finnish Data Protection Ombudsman tried to stop a company that took tax records from the tax office and sold and published them, even in light of official documentation describing a gross intrusion into the life of a family and their children, with even death threats involved as a direct result of the publishing of tax records. At least you have the EU Court of Justice and the European Commission, if all else fails. (which is the case in this particular issue.)
Comment by Sirkuspelle — Mon, Jul 16th, 2007 @ 10:33 am
This dude from another blog said that lowering the VAT won’t actually affect the food prices, because there isn’t enough competition in the industry in Finland. There’s some kind of a cartel.
It’s in here (in Finnish)
http://www.pahaolo.com/cgi-bin/paha.pl?20070608
Comment by Anonymous — Mon, Jul 16th, 2007 @ 4:56 pm
Just for the record, I have never said “Finnish peacekeepers that you in your lovely way want to see killed.â€Â
I just was the first to notice they were now “Human Shieldsâ€Â.
Not helping anyone but Iran and some thugs and killers.
What about the Lebanese kids who don’t get their legs blown off because Finnish peacekeepers cleared the cluster bombs?
Comment by Anonymous — Mon, Jul 16th, 2007 @ 5:14 pm
What about the Lebanese kids who don’t get their legs blown off because Finnish peacekeepers cleared the cluster bombs?
That’s just hooman sheelds for thuggs and killer’s in action.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Mon, Jul 16th, 2007 @ 8:42 pm
Finnish peacekeepers cleared the cluster bombs?
my oh my they actually left the lunch room?
What about the entire orphanage that the USA troups saved? My of my we can even count the kids the USA saved, not some proposal of what might have happened.
Please, go back to reality folks. You are not even trying to save anything but your face time here.
Good try at the spin zone.
Comment by winter, "Yea, Proton Power, now in remission" — Mon, Jul 16th, 2007 @ 9:39 pm
Winter, you don’t have a clue what the peacekeepers are doing in Lebanon, so why don’t you shut the fuck up.
Comment by Anonymous — Mon, Jul 16th, 2007 @ 11:13 pm
#0 How come you always pick up pieces here and there? Finland may not be the best place on earth, but comparing salaries with Denmark? Denmark may have higher salaries (I do not know), but do you know how much they pay taxes? Do you know how much they pay for cars?
Comment by Anonymous — Mon, Jul 16th, 2007 @ 11:27 pm
Im an american living in Finland 8 yaers and i agree with phil.. time for change here.. speak up slackers….
Comment by stormchaser — Mon, Jul 16th, 2007 @ 11:56 pm
I would pay more for my food.
– oh and stfu winter you troll. You are one human shield against rationality.
Comment by Plas — Tue, Jul 17th, 2007 @ 12:45 am
“Winter, you don’t have a clue what the peacekeepers are doing in Lebanon, so why don’t you shut the fuck up.”
correct, I don’t. But when a Israelie General states you are doing such great “Human Shield” work, I have to think I got this one right.
Again, I take credit, for saying it first.
So shut me up, show a picture of a rocket you all have taken out of circulation? Well, anything? PLEASE??????????
Comment by winter “Yea, Proton Power, now in remission†— Tue, Jul 17th, 2007 @ 12:51 am
Not the SAUNA picture. That was posted last time we covered this topic.
Hint: Sauna time not equat to actual patrolling time.
Comment by winter “Yea, Proton Power, now in remission†— Tue, Jul 17th, 2007 @ 12:59 am
#28 - Martin-Eric: I hold an EU passport, so (without knowing specifics) that i will still be able to somehow survive in this savage land.
#29-30 - mjr: To borrow a fellow wine-lover’s favorite expression, you have hit the nail in the head. Sometimes I feel that some people just wait their turn to speak (write) instead of listening (reading) and just rehash the same ol’ - same ol’ bovine feces.
#32 - Kristian: Thanks for the accounting lesson.
I am not sure what the monopolistic model you briefly mentioned entails, but you may want to restate it in terms of the size of the market and how many players it fits. It may make more sense that way (and I say that with the best intentions).
Regarding my clientèle, 98% is going to be located outside of Finland. However, if it comes to litigation, I doubt the sue-happy system in the US would be any better. I always thought that was a libertarian favorite, tort reform and all.
I did not mention idealism or even hinted at theory. I have seen with my own eyes the southern European way of doing things and have suffered because of it. I am also disgusted with the lack of caring and compassion for the less fortunate in the US. And by the way, Finland has managed to attract this educated professional, I don’t know about any others.
There it is, K-man, Finland being an attractive place to be, proven! Criminy! Egads!
#33 - Jani: I happen to agree with you. Phil may run the blog as he pleases, and I am actually quite happy it is there for us to debate all this.
#38 - hfb: Kiitos!
#40 - Kristian: I agree! With! You! Wow, never thought I would say that. Let’s all have a big party at Lapua. VAT is an unfair tax. Too excited right now to explain why I think so.
#41 - Sirkuspelle: Thanks! Many well-wishers today. I feel welcome already. Although I do fear clowns… well, the armed ones anyway.
#46: I think winter is Bill-O in disguise… Somebody call Olbermann!
Comment by Herkku — Tue, Jul 17th, 2007 @ 1:28 am
“Bill-O in disguise”
fair and ballanced? Giving you another view the BBC has banned.
and now, ahead of the game with insites on stupid Political moves by the EU, not to help the world, just to save face.
Comment by winter “Yea, Proton Power, now in remission†— Tue, Jul 17th, 2007 @ 1:41 am
In my opionion high prices of food in Finland are caused by largely concentrated delivery and reselling chain, Kesko and SOK, and very locally Tradeka.
Together they control a large deal of Finnish wholesale trade and grocery stores. Competition in high prices is almost non-existent (except locally), and everyone’s gathering good margins and increasing revenues.
And alcohol is of course an area of special attention in Finland. Fortunately good wines are affordable enough even in European comparison.
Comment by espoolainen — Tue, Jul 17th, 2007 @ 3:57 am
A mere five years before we went into Iraq, every Democrat leader was bellyaching about the need to go to war in Iraq, about how *dangerous* Saddam was, how we needed “regime change” (a term so familiar now, people forget it was CLINTON who coined it viz the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998), how we needed to disarm Iraq, WMD’s, nuclear weapons blah-blah-blah. Our number one priority was supposed to have been, eliminating this danger to world peace.
Now Bush has 2 down (Iraq, and North Koria), he has one to go.
Comment by winter “Yea, Proton Power, now in remission†— Tue, Jul 17th, 2007 @ 4:19 am
#56: winter, you may be a tad bit off-topic here. I do believe this was about food prices in Finland.
But I will indulge you. I will actually agree with you. I believe that, much like Republicans, Democrats are scum. Maybe they hide it better. There has never been a US president that has not invaded another country (unilaterally, pre-emptively or otherwise) since, oh I don’t know, the civil war?
Btw, “Now Bush has 2 down (Iraq, and North Koria), he has one to go.”
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Good one.
Comment by Herkku — Tue, Jul 17th, 2007 @ 9:19 am
Now Bush has 2 down (Iraq, and North Koria), he has one to go.
Actually, the Koria garrison, both northern and southern parts of it, has already been shut down. There’s no need for Bush to democratisise it.
It was an engineer unit, so e.g. hooman sheelds for Lebbanon were being trained there.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Tue, Jul 17th, 2007 @ 10:03 am
Herkku: “I am not sure what the monopolistic model you briefly mentioned entails”
I explain it right here…
http://www.finlandforthought.net/2007/05/15/ravintolat-finlands-restaurant-ripoff/
But, if your business consists mainly of customers outside of Finland, then it doesn’t apply to you specifically. Instead, you’ll have other problems—like paying 1000- to 2000-euros or more for a speeding ticket. They’re based on your income. Did you know that?
The cops can access your financial records without a search warrant to determine the fine amount. Like I mentioned above, the Finnish system is designed to shovel your money back into the center—that is, the money you might have otherwise used to expand your business and hire people.
The system is also designed to embarrass those who are successful. So, don’t become too successful—remember, as a business owner, you are risking your own money. in this case, you are risking it on behalf of the state which, incidentally, won’t help you if you lose it.
“However, if it comes to litigation, I doubt the sue-happy system in the US would be any better.”
Generally, I think Europe is more sensible that way. But I suppose it depends on the case.
Comment by Kristian — Tue, Jul 17th, 2007 @ 11:46 am
http://editorialcartoonists.com/cartoon/display.cfm/38237/
That cartoon pretty much sums up the attitudes of Libertarian fanatics. Communists were bad enough but these “Free market shall solve all problems”-guys are no better, just another end of the spectrum.
Comment by tim73 — Tue, Jul 17th, 2007 @ 12:26 pm
Tim73
Look making fun of Al Gore, our guy who invented the Internet, over Global Warming to line his pockets with money will not be tollerated.
Period. Surrender now, or you get some sun screen and get deployed as a peacekeeper for Finland.
Comment by winter “Yea, Proton Power, now in remission†— Tue, Jul 17th, 2007 @ 3:13 pm
Here’s another one:
http://editorialcartoonists.com/cartoon/display.cfm/36296/
Comment by Anonymous — Tue, Jul 17th, 2007 @ 5:22 pm
#59: Kristian - You know, you might be surprised to know we agree on some things, and that I find some of your opinions reasonable. I just would not use the examples you use to support them.
To the matter at hand: Your monopoly model. Nothing in your ravintolat entry proved it for me. It did however make a nice point about taxes. It is just hard for me to see the monopoly in those two slices of chicken. What I see is possibly a bad product. Solution: take your business elsewhere. You did, to McD, and you have further subsitutes in kebabit and such. The fact that in any one place in Finland only has two burger choices may have more to do with the size of the market and consumer choice rather than other factors.
Btw, I do love Hesburger, if only for the Ruisfilehampurilainen.
“Instead, you’ll have other problemsâ€â€like paying 1000- to 2000-euros or more for a speeding ticket. They’re based on your income. Did you know that?”
I did. In fact, I really admire Finland for that. I think that the wealthy should not have to pay the same as the poor when they speed. The fine should hurt the same way. Otherwise, the wealthy can just speed every time, since it only costs 50 euros, always. Moreover, I do believe that a flat price-like ticket puts the burden on the poor. As you know, speeding tickets are in fact taxes. Hence, in the same way I do not support a flat tax, I do not support the same amount for every ticket.
I do not see how it relates to my business, but I am assuming you are talking about the general cost of living here.
What I do dislike is that anybody can see my financial data. I don’t mind the cops doing it, but I would hate the tabloids or my neighbours doing it. I do support that for any and all elected officials.
I do understand that success or boasting is looked down upon in Suomi, but I can live with it. I know that if my concience is clear, then I am fine. I do not care what anybody thinks of my success.
I am glad we agree on litigation.
Comment by Herkku — Tue, Jul 17th, 2007 @ 6:00 pm
#61: Mr. winter, what you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this blog is now dumber for having read it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
Comment by Herkku — Tue, Jul 17th, 2007 @ 6:04 pm
“Your monopoly model. Nothing in your ravintolat entry proved it for me. It did however make a nice point about taxes.”
Generally speaking, high taxes create an entry barrier for starting a business because they inhibit savings; Consequently, people in Finland have little savings, so they have little startup money. It also puts a drain on the economy from a macroeconomic perspective. Hence, less competition and less customers to support new entrants.
Those kebabit you mentioned… they cost roughly double the EU price in Finland: 5- to 6-euros here. And not even the quantities are the same. Most fast food is priced so that you spend about 5.50- to 7.50-euro each time you get hungry. I’d say it’s nearly double the EU price.
You might not believe that it makes a difference—especially if you’re dying to leave wherever you live now—but you’ll see once you live here for a while, that the system is designed to take your money.
Interestingly, McD’s is reasonably priced for some reason. Go figure. It’s one of the only near-market values in Finland, it seems. I suppose pizza is priced ok too—just don’t order a beer with that.
Again, I know it sounds small, but it’s not hard to prove that these things cost thousands of euros extra each year.
“Otherwise, the wealthy can just speed every time, since it only costs 50 euros, always.”
Actually, I’m in favor of anyone who speeds or drives unsafely losing their license; no fine needed. It would help both poor and wealthy people get better acquainted with public transit.
“What I do dislike is that anybody can see my financial data. I don’t mind the cops doing it, but I would hate the tabloids or my neighbours doing it.”
Well, the cops aren’t trained in data protection law. If they can access it, then the tabloids and your neighbor can get the information…not to mention websites outside of Finland. Cops have friends in their private lives, right?
But most importantly, it’s defined as a human rights abuse under the UN’s Universal Declaration of Human Rights: The cops violate your privacy by accessing your private records without a search warrant.
There’s also a matter of discrimination based on nationality. Finns pay according to income, but foreign visitors pay the base rate (since other countries have adequate data protection laws). Also, unless a person has a normal job, you can’t really determine their income.
For example, I have a business registered outside of Finland. Technically, I have no income here; I live off savings. I would pay the base rate, whereas a bus driver would pay more than I. Fair? That’s the game people play here—at least, those who have some financial flexibility.
Finland’s actions are an EU issue, and we expect the legality of it to be tested in the European Court of Justice.
“Hence, in the same way I do not support a flat tax”
I’m not a big flat tax supporter either. I believe low-income workers should pay nothing. Actually, Switzerland’s tax model appeals to me the most.
Comment by Kristian — Tue, Jul 17th, 2007 @ 6:55 pm
#61: Mr. winter, what you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard.
That is correct, until winnie’s next post. He is always able to exceed himself.
may God have mercy on your soul.
No, even the Lord Almighty wayves the French white flag of surrender on winnie.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Tue, Jul 17th, 2007 @ 10:48 pm
Biased, personal commentary - once again Kristian manipulates info to serve his agenda. I find this propaganda very sickening. The same feeling goes for the cynicism (not to be mistaken as dry humour) and the sense of superiority. As for the random non-sense that winter writes, the anti-Israel sentiment is all over the place. The question raises as why winter sits on a blog about Finns, rather than a Jewish blog and show them some colours? [End of personal commentary]
Finnish tax info is in public, so whether the policemen are trained to ‘handle’ them or not, is irrelevant. Simple logic - the act of accessing PUBLIC INFO cannot constitute as a violation of PRIVACY.
While the publication of tax info itself may be a violation of privacy, repeat after me - accessing the existing info in public domain is not a violation of privacy.
By the way, progressive fine system is a non-issue if you don’t commit the crime. (Another simple logic - no crime, then no fine.) I don’t see its relevance to Herkku’s immigration, unless the hidden assumption is that Herkku WILL commit speeding. Also, Kristian has a conflicting interpretation of ‘fairness’ - it is ‘unfair’ if the fine (based on the tax info) shows up too little due to the Riches’ practice of tax-avoidance, yet it’s ‘unfair’ if they don’t do tax-avoidance and pay large fine. It seems more a random, situational device to discredit Finnish justice system.
Bail (from jail) is also often based on the financial status. How often do people claim that this practice is unfair?
Back to topic.
Speaking of VAT - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_added_tax
“In Denmark, VAT is only applied at one level, and is not split into two levels as in other countries (e.g. Germany), where VAT is split into VAT for foodstuffs and VAT for nonfood. The current percentage in Denmark is 25%. That makes Denmark one of the countries with the highest value added tax, alongside Norway and Sweden.
In Norway, VAT is split into three levels: 25% is the general VAT, 14% (formerly 13%, up on January 1, 2007) for foods and restaurant take-out (food eaten in a restaurant has 25%), 8% for person transport, movie tickets, and hotel stays. Most printed matters are still free of VAT.
In Sweden, VAT is split into three levels: 25% for most goods and services including restaurants bills, 12% for foods and hotel stays (but breakfast at 25%) and 6% for printed matter, cultural services,and transport of private persons. Some services are not taxable for example education of children and adults if public utility, but education is taxable at 25% in case of courses for adults at a private school.”
Speaking of food price - http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article1891181.ece
“Norway also had the dubious distinction of having among the highest prices for food and even non-alcoholic beverages in Europe, along with Denmark, Iceland and Switzerland.
Meat was especially expensive n Norway, with prices 82 percent over the European average. That’s traditionally a result of measures to protect high-cost Norwegian meat producers, not least by restricting cheaper imports.”
The counter argument that Finland’s neighbours can afford it because they are well-off, doesn’t change the fact that they have to pay more for their food.
Comment by David — Tue, Jul 17th, 2007 @ 11:34 pm
“Biased, personal commentary - once again Kristian manipulates info to serve his agenda. I find this propaganda very sickening.”
Can we assume that you are satisfied with the low-salaries, high-prices and invasions into your privacy in Finland?
Comment by Kristian — Wed, Jul 18th, 2007 @ 1:02 am
Look, I have issues, that Rum will not fix:
The USA has a Club Gitmo catch and release program for captured terrorists.
Our friends in Cuba attack the USA for not allowing more people to escape its miserable Commie regime
We are trying to win a war, with the dem party telling the other side to just wait, they will cut and run. They should all be shot.
Our allies in Saudi Arabia have been running a scam on us ever since September 11, 2001, an Iraqi national security adviser who says that Saudis comprise nearly half of all foreign fighters captured in Iraq.
Hizballah is rearming and planting roadside bombs right under the noses of the clueless, powerless United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon, and today one of the bombs went off: Bomb hits U.N. peacekeepers in Lebanon.
So, it is time to party with rum.
Comment by winter, "Yea, Proton Power, now in remission" — Wed, Jul 18th, 2007 @ 1:24 am
#69: I rest my case. Thanks for playing.
Comment by Herkku — Wed, Jul 18th, 2007 @ 1:49 am
Winter #69 “Our allies in Saudi Arabia have been running a scam on us ever since September 11, 2001, an Iraqi national security adviser who says that Saudis comprise nearly half of all foreign fighters captured in Iraq.”
Winter, why don’t you j………………
Nah, can’t be bothered. You deserve a year long break in GITMO. Now go!
Comment by Punter — Wed, Jul 18th, 2007 @ 1:51 pm
A little sun tan oil, winter? Or will you be spending 24/7 in one of those little dog cages?
Comment by Kristian — Wed, Jul 18th, 2007 @ 3:54 pm
GITMO is actually nice. It is Cuba, with warm watters, good fishing, and lots of lobster to catch.
Now don’t wander outside USA watters there, the Cuban gunboats shoot first, then fine you later.
Comment by winter, "Yea, Proton Power, now in remission" — Wed, Jul 18th, 2007 @ 4:11 pm
#68 - once again avoids logical arguments and resorts to provocation and condescendence. I find the level of honesty in the given advices rather questionable.
#69 - if anyone expects to hear an engaging, topical, Finland-related discussion from winter, then please stop entertaining winter’s irrelevant babbling.
Comment by David — Wed, Jul 18th, 2007 @ 9:22 pm
#73: Yes, and good health care too!
#74: Oh let the boys have some fun, winter is what keeps me going. Also, we are buried deep in the comments here, I doubt many make it this far down (literally and figuratively).
Comment by Herkku — Wed, Jul 18th, 2007 @ 9:55 pm
Hay, it is fun as the outsider to point out your world view.
The problem with the Finnish world view is you feel the status que has come apart, which it has, your world view has flaws, lots of them, and your real impact on the world in nothing, which it is, as long as you keep your heads deep down in the sand.
Lets call an apple an apple, and say what the world thinks about your stupid deployment to Lebanon? Well it is as Human Shields, supporting thugs and killers.
Your view on Darfur? Let the USA fix it. Well we are not. Thats where your world view and reality clash.
Comment by winter, "Yea, Proton Power, now in remission" — Wed, Jul 18th, 2007 @ 11:02 pm
What about the entire orphanage that the USA troups saved?
Sayved from whatt? The kidds seamed to have a grate time at club med.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Thu, Jul 19th, 2007 @ 12:23 am
Look, just because you deploy to save thugs and killers, you at least don’t have to contend with :
the Democrat Congress and Senate that are increasingly desperate to lose the war while they still can
Senate Democrats’ latest cut-and-run proposal didn’t stand a chance of passing, and they knew it. This was just another political grandstand play from the most do-nothing Senate in history
but the press is now watched by a group of bloggers to keep track of false and/or blatantly biased reporting from our agenda-driven mainstream media: MediaMythBusters.com
BBC, they have your biased number
Comment by winter “Yea, Proton Power, now in remission†— Thu, Jul 19th, 2007 @ 5:30 am