“Finland has no state-mandated minimum wage just like the states has no mandated vacation time, so I guess we should declare that “Finland has the worst salaries in the world, they pay their employees nothing!”

This is a false analogy because Finns have a union determined minimum wage. It just differs from industry to industry. I believe the US does have a minimum wage does it not – it’s just very low.

Although the details may be sketchy, it’s not very misleading to have the US at the bottom. My sister, who lives in Boston, used to get 9 paid holidays a year after three years working for the same hospital. She took more but it had to be unpaid. That wouldn’t happen in Europe. Whether that’s a good or bad thing depends, I suppose, on how much you like your job and/or holidays.

Like Phil said, many companies start with a minimum of two weeks vacation. I have to say that most offer three for starters and then often the amount grows the longer you are with the company. Four out of six in my office currently earn 5 weeks (25 monday-Friday days) of vacation. Don’t use all your vacation, then it rolls into the next year. (There is often a limit to how much can be rolled over)

They also receive three floating holidays that do not roll over.

Oh, and you can start taking leave after three months employment and you can take your leave in as small as 1 hour block. No need to blow all of it on one leave.

Of course, this is dependent on the company you work for, not the law.

Well, money is nice, so is work, but I would say that the amount of free time has always been a central measure of social wellbeing and even position. Finland combines globally thinking a very high standard of living (for practically the whole society, no slums here) with a dynamic economy (which is growing faster than the US economy) AND has long holidays and short working hours. Not bad, eh! Maybe you assorted libertarians could learn something from Finland…

This is a false analogy because Finns have a union determined minimum wage. It just differs from industry to industry. I believe the US does have a minimum wage does it not – it’s just very low.

Yes, the unions determine the minimum wage in Finland, just as unions and others determine the vacation time in the U.S.

Yes, the U.S. has a minimum wage. In some states it’s quite high, others it’s low. There’s also a federal minimum wage.

Just curious, what’s the lowest minimum wage in Finland?

Maybe you assorted libertarians could learn something from Finland…

Americans are getting 2, 3, even 4 or 5 week holidays…without the state’s involvement and laws, imagine that!!

Everybody in Finland gets at least five weeks of vacation (after working a full year). Four during the summer and one sometimes later. Many get six. I have no idea how one can end up with an average of 30 days with such figures … Apparently, it’s about legally enforced vacations? Five times six (Saturdays included) is 30 …

Anyway, this is not the whole picture: there are still far too many Finns who would to like to have even more time off but can’t because the culture (or whatever) doesn’t “allow” it. In other West-European countries, I’ve been told, it’s much more common for individuals to demand and get even longer holidays.

In the USA the trend seems to be the other way around. Apparently over there work is the meaning of life … or rather, in a too capitalistic system – weak and thus stupid unions, for one – people just don’t have a choice.

And if you wondered, the meaning of life is not work but a nice mixture of both work and something else you need and want.

This research is quite crap, what you need to see are the average vacations for the citizens. I know alot of Finns who have much longer vacations than 5-6 weeks. But remember, the unemployed and precarious workers who go from short-term contract to another don’t get any vacation, so be sure factor that in the averages.

When my dad retired, he was getting 9 weeks vacation a year. Try getting that in Finland!

Oh yes, slums in the US are self-imposed. A person living in a US slum can up and move to another city and find good work and good salary. Try moving out of a slum in Europe. Try minimizing the fact that your a somali in Finland. And where do the Somalis live in Finland? Do you want to live there. Maybe that’s Finland’s slum. It just has a fresh coat of paint provided by the state. Just wait 10-20 years and you will have slums and worse. As it is, France and Sweden already have areas that are labeled ‘no-go’ for police and fire services.

MJR,
You left out that nobody has any money to do anything while on these wonderful vacation periods.

But remember, the unemployed and precarious workers who go from short-term contract to another don’t get any vacation, so be sure factor that in the averages.

Nail on the head with this one, Phil. Of the working age population proably about 10 per cent are unemployed, and of the employed population about 15 per cent have irregular contracts. “The most statutory vacation in the world” joy seems quite different through those glasses. Focus more on issues like this, if you really want to take on the welfare state’s malaises and its defenders’ hypocrisy.

The number of Finnish billionaires, high booze prices and evilly public tax records are pretty darn trivial if you consider the big picture.

[quote]precarious workers who go from short-term contract to another don’t get any vacation, so be sure factor that in the averages.[/quote]

No vacation per se, but they do get this thing called lomaraha, which is basically the same thing. It sort of pays for your unpaid leave, so to speak.

Judging by how often I had to sit on my ass and twiddle my thumbs waiting for someone to return to the office to get things done, I’d say that, yeah, 1 day per week away from the office is about right as an average.

Judging by how often I had to sit on my ass and twiddle my thumbs waiting for someone to return to the office to get things done, I’d say that, yeah, 1 day per week away from the office is about right as an average.

An attitude of a typical nitpicking control freak everybody wants to get rid of. You really don’t have to lick your employers ass to feel good about yourself. Here’s a friendly advise: have a life!

The US is famous for not having many holidays and for always having this really unhealthy “work to live” attitude. Honestly, is that how people choose to live their life? Do people retire and look back at their achievements and see that all they’ve done is work for their whole life instead of life? What a wasted life if that’s what we can call living!

What is the difference between vacation and holiday? I’m confused. I always thought that vacation was just the American word for holiday? Maybe I have the Friday feeling.

USA is a market economy.

In its work, its the most productive.

In its medical, you don’t see folks going to Finland for Medical care, do you?

In its GDP, which is growing 4-5%

In its unemployment rate of like 4%

In its ability to kick ass, (3 and 4th Infantry Divisions) in places you all say to go, like the Yugo war.

In your case: It all time off to think about Darfur. Thats it, just thinking.

So just what are your achievements again?

10% Unemployment, higher? low GDP growth rates? Folks walking away (Going Private) from a failed Medical system?

“Judging by how often I had to sit on my ass and twiddle my thumbs waiting for someone to return to the office to get things done, I’d say that, yeah, 1 day per week away from the office is about right as an average.”

Why don’t you just bake another cake. You have experience working for ONE Finnish company. I have been working for about 15 (consultant) plus worked abroad. In most of them Finnish employees do not sit in their lazy asses but work rather effectively, 7.5 hours per day.

The best companies have great managers which understand a) how to manage a project and b) how to manage work load and even out it among workers.

The worst projects that I have worked for, the management methods are usually copied from USofA, emphasis on keeping the DEADLINE, no matter what the quality is. That leads to a lot of overtime because overly eager marketing people promised something on this or that day without ever consulting the designers or engineers or the rest of company.

The US is famous for not having many holidays and for always having this really unhealthy “work to live” attitude.

Honestly, I don’t see the difference in work attitudes between the states and here, it’s about the seem. The only “work to live” people in the states or Finland are making big $$$, or will be making $$$ soon enough.

“#he only “work to live” people in the states or Finland are making big $$$, or will be making $$$ soon enough”

well, of course, if you avoid certain areas and certain people in the US. Baltimore is like 10 times worse than Helsinki, according to crime statistics. But as long as you live in the upper middle class, everything is pretty OK, right?

Anon – “An attitude of a typical nitpicking control freak everybody wants to get rid of. ”

What, trying to get something done is ‘nitpicking’? Hey, why should I care if nobody else did but given my professional experience, it was difficult to just hang around and do nothing much of the time. The summertime was excrutiating.

“it was difficult to just hang around and do nothing much of the time. The summertime was excrutiating.”

My company has me go out and take golf lessons when most of the staff went off on summer vacation. They told me to be patient because they hoped to have work for me in about 6 months time. I was getting too many calls from the US to go work there to ignore them.

In response to JG, item 13.

As I use the terms, “holiday” refers to specific set days on which the office is closed. For example, if December 25 falls on a weekday, then that is a holiday. Larger employers may have 8 or 9 holidays, plus a couple of “floating” holidays – time that you can take off without using a vacation day – partially to account for days such as Yom Kippur that some people don’t celebrate.

“Vacation” refers to days that you schedule with your supervisor in which you take off work. As noted earlier, a starting employee may get two weeks of vacation a year, building up to more vacation days as one increases in seniority.

So, if I decided to take all of this last week off, July 4 would be a holiday, while July 2-3 and July 5-6 would be vacation days.

One comment on unions – in the U.S., union membership has declined substantially over the last several decades, and the vast majority of American workers do not belong to a union. That doesn’t mean that unions aren’t influential, because of (1) their past effect on labor legislation, (2) their competitive effect, as non-union employers try to match union salaries to obtain employees, and (3) their political power, derived from union member contributions to political funds.

Tim73: “The worst projects that I have worked for, the management methods are usually copied from USofA,”

Coming from you, I never would have guessed.

Tim73: “ emphasis on keeping the DEADLINE,” no matter what the quality is.”

Alright, I suppose I can agree with that. I’m sort of a perfectionist, and the American way of working doesn’t really suit me. But it does produce good innovation, and people are rewarded handsomely for investing their own money in new ideas that become successful. At least the ball gets rolling in the US….then we can copy the ideas (at no cost/risk) and talk about how great we are

“Baltimore is like 10 times worse than Helsinki, according to crime statistics. But as long as you live in the upper middle class, everything is pretty OK, right?”

Proportionately speaking, crime in America concentrates itself among certain ethnic groups. And those groups tend to live in clusters. We don’t have those groups here in Finland—at least, not in significant numbers.

I lived in Philadelphia, where 400-people are murdered each year. But nearly all happen in areas where those certain ethnic groups live.

f’d up chart, OECD don’t know shit.

So, Phil, you want to be a Finnish woman ?! For JG and the rest, I think a clearer distinction between “holidays” and “vacation” American style, is that holidays are official days on the federal and/or state government calendar when most non-essential businesses are closed. for example,the Fourth of July (which someone mentioned), and Thanksgiving in November. Most people would reasonably expect a day off then, as they do on Christmas, when nothing is officially open (no stock market, no government offices, most stores, etc.)Because of our 24-7 culture (24 hours/day, 7 days/week), many convenience stores are open on these days, so if you work there, you’re not guaranteed the day off, and this is not illegal. K-Mart, a rather large chain store is open on Christmas, too. Essential services, obviously, like medicine, do not shut down. Vacation in americaspeak is the time granted to an employee, with pay, outside of holidays. There are also, in fewer and fewer businesses, paid “sick days,” but it is frowned upon to use even one. If I took all my sick days in any given year, I’d most likely be fired. This is legal, too. There are many, of course, who have much sweeter deals. I would say yes to the person who asked if someone in retirement will look back upon their achievements at work, and not at their life outside of work. For many Americans who have jobs they like, these are intertwined. It could be geographical— when I lived in Seattle, when people asked “what do you do ?” they tended to mean what sports you were into, whereas in the Northeast, they mean “how important are you/ where does your money come from ?”

#5 That’s right. Everyone I know who has been working a while in the US gets at least 2 weeks of paid holiday. My first career gave me 1 month a year.

That is not a very truthful picture on that chart.

Thanks Ontario Emperor and Cordelia for clearing that up. Confused me, as the online dictionary told me they are one and the same…

Engelskt uppslagsord
holiday

Svensk översättning
semester {brittisk engelska; i amerikansk engelska vacation} (substantiv)
period av längre sammanhÃ¥llen ledighet som man tillbringar med att resa bort

Exempel

* I am off to Spain for a three-week holiday next Thursday—nästa torsdag Ã¥ker jag till Spanien pÃ¥ semester i tre veckor

Cordelia, that is worrying what you say about sick days. Are there no legal provisions for sick pay in the USA? What about maternity and paternity leave?

JG,

Cordelia’s comments sound a bit overstated regarding sick days in the US—firing based on sick days seems like it would be illegal, but maybe I’m wrong. In any case, you have to understand the context…

Realize, in the US it’s not required to get a doctor’s excuse when reporting sick. So, there’s always the potential for suspicion by the employer. It’s probably a good idea to get a doctor’s note (like in Europe) if the employment relationship feels shaky otherwise.

The overriding principle is that companies in the US are NOT seeking excuses to fire people. The condition is quite opposite when you consider how much it costs to train new workers. But if a person has poor job performance AND frequently reports sick, then what’s an employer supposed to do? Keep eating the loss?

Regarding vacation time, I’d say it’s a bit sparse in the US when considering the overall picture. But even if you only get 3-weeks officially, you can easily buy extra time.

Maybe it’s not so easy for low-skilled workers who have weak- or no- unions. But white collar professionals have the choice—if they don’t get 4+ weeks in the first place. Many choose less because there’s a cultural difference; just look how Phil is going stir-crazy.

Even with the buy-back option considered, American professionals still earn much more—probably about 35% more than Germans even. So there’s plenty of leeway.

Everybody should agree on one thing: more freedom is better than less. Thus having more time off is better than less. In this regard there is too little freedom in Finland, not to mention the USA.

From the ecological point of view … if you watch the telly instead of of doing something “useful” like driving around or planning new ad campaigns, that’s most likely positive.

“American professionals still earn much more—probably about 35% more than Germans even. ”

Yep, and then with the low tax rate, we even get to keep it.

Great system. You work hard, you get rewarded.

Kristian:
I lived in Philadelphia, where 400-people are murdered each year. But nearly all happen in areas where those certain ethnic groups live.

Which ethnic group is that? Italians?

I NEED TO MOVE TO FINLAND!!!!!!!

Minimum wage in Finland is 5,55 € per hour. And it looks like minimum wage in the US is 5.15 $ per hour.

funkybrownchick:
I NEED TO MOVE TO FINLAND!!!!!!!

You need to move quick, since Sly & the Family Stone is playing in Pori in two weeks.

Here’s a recent Vanity Fair article with an interview.

And for the uninitiated, here’s an idea of why it’s well worth a 250 km drive.

Here’s something that might explain why Sly hasn’t been around much in the last 30 years. For some reason, I’m thinking of Kristian in particular when posting this.

Good God, I don’t know how many posts I’ve written that this POS has discarded. Did the last one end up in the spam box or what?

winnie:
low GDP growth rates?

Certainly lower than the People’s Republic of China, but then again higher than the US. Are you trying to make an argument about the effect of the economic system on the GDP growth rate, comrade?

well worth a 250 km drive

Or even a transatlantic flight…

Are they playing on the east coast? According to the web, they’re playing in California and Europe. How about NYC? Given the group’s history (even though few of the original members will be playing on this tour), there might be some traumas involved.

I’m getting YouTube-happy with the Family Stone, but here is one of the defining, if not the most defining Woodstock moment.

And for something completely fun-kay, there’s of course this and the follow-up interview/cross-examination. Kristian, pay attention to the references to mirrors and the flu.

Darn, I botched the Dick Cavett links:

Number one
Number two

Fred – Golf? LOL. *sigh*

“The condition is quite opposite when you consider how much it costs to train new workers.”

well I do agree with Kristian here

Most employers in the USA know, the reason you succeed is a trained work force. Cost’s to retrain new folks, just drain the profits away.

Big reason why we don’t need government help. We don’t need it, never wanted it.

Hey, Kristian and others: it is illegal to fire someone in the US because they took sick days; however, many states have what is called “fire at will” laws, i.e. unless a contract of any sort explicitly declares otherwise, many states permit a company to fire without a given reason. This is, yes, ugly, and companies are hardly looking for an excuse to fire people. I was talking about the general atmosphere in many companies. Generally companies don’t muck about with parental leave policies, but please realize, federal law only stipulates that unpaid leave be granted. I work in a very demanding, in demand, white collar profession, and trust me, the competition is so great that, yes, in my field and other similar ones, people do not call in sick, they skip their allotted vacations, and keep on working. The New York Times, I believe, even had several recent articles on the subject. Apologies for another long post.

“the competition is so great that, yes, in my field and other similar ones, people do not call in sick”

I agree this happens. Its mostly the competition amoung the middle managers and engineers. However, the outstanding workers, just ignore this office rule, take sick leave, take vacations, and don’t worry.

I always had a theory, on where I worked, you made sure you were in the top 10%, and then work was fun, not stressful, with no backstabbing to get ahead.

I also had a theroy on picking my own bosses. The one time I was not able to do that, I had to then fire him after he gave me a middle of the road work report. By fire him, I went looking for a new boss, and moved under him.

Well Cordelia, I can’t imagine the place you work. I assume your company pays above the industry average; hence the competition. Geographically speaking, I know there are pockets in the US where living costs are high, automobile traffic is dense, but corporate jobs pay really well. And yes, there is competition for those jobs. People choose to live there because it affords them an elite lifestyle.

I’ve worked in the US, and I haven’t found it to be any different from working in Europe. But I’ve never sought high-stress work; it just doesn’t fit me. Also, I found a niche in medium-sized companies with ca. 60-people, so I’m sure that makes a difference. Also, I’ve always kept my living expenses low, so I never felt threatened by getting fired.

I guess job protection laws can be good, but if they’re too strict, then companies will be reluctant to hire people. It also depends on the type of job—some professions offer more job mobility than others, so they might need less protection.

Fred – Golf? LOL. *sigh*

I’d really like to know which company that was. The Port of Helsinki?

However, the outstanding workers, just ignore this office rule, take sick leave, take vacations, and don’t worry.

It seems that Finland simply has more outstanding workers. Maby that explains our higher GDP growth rate, eh winnie?

Long time listener, first time caller.
Couldn’t help sharing the following:

“Even conservative commentators, inclined to mock the high-taxing Nordic model, have to concede its emphasis on equality has helped to turn around an economy that in the early 1990s was reeling with 18 per cent unemployment and a 14 per cent fall in GDP.”

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,21209459-2703,00.html

Enjoy.

Some info on average minimum wages:

“In six EU Member States, in Western Europe, the minimum wage legislation defines the minimum standards approximately equal to that which has been won by collective agreements in Finland.

The top six countries are Luxembourg (EUR9.08), Ireland (EUR8.30), France (EUR8.27), Netherlands (EUR8.13), United Kingdom (EUR7.96) and Belgium (EUR7.93).

In Germany, the trade union movement fights for minimum pay legislation and demands the minimum wage to be set at EUR7.50. According to union sources 4.6 million employees earn less than that per hour.

The legal minimum wages in five EU Member States in Southern Europe represent the next level. They are Greece (EUR4.22), Spain (EUR3.99), Malta (EUR3.47), Slovenia (EUR3.02) and Portugal (EUR2.82).

In Finland, there are employees who are paid above these Southern European minimum norms but still clearly below the minimums in the collective agreements of the Service Union United PAM and the Chemical Workers’ Union. Those employees have jobs that are not covered by any collective agreement.”

http://www.artto.kaapeli.fi/unions/T2007/k13

#47: “emphasis on equality has helped to turn around an economy that in the early 1990s was reeling with 18 per cent unemployment and a 14 per cent fall in GDP.”

I think you’re/they’re placing credit where it doesn’t actually belong. But I’ll concede there are many such popular cliches about Finland that are used by those with certain agendas.

“I’d really like to know which company that was. The Port of Helsinki?”

Sorry, no. The company did contact me about a year ago asking if I was interested in moving back as they did have sufficient work for me. (5 years later.)

But I’ll concede there are many such popular cliches about Finland that are used by those with certain agendas.

Isn’t that what this blog is all about?

Ein wirklich sehr Interessante Seite mit guten Informationen.

My god u kept me entertained.