Normally you only get drunk after you have acquired the boat. Looks like they got confused and did things the opposite way around.

Åboland is beautiful.

Wow that looks like my old boat. Screw global warming get a boat.

The startling pace of marine innovation LOL!

I’m a boat design enthusiast, and my original plan was to build a steel sailboat in Finland as a live-aboard. But to my dismay, I now see that the pricing won’t be right.

Although I’ll do the fit-out myself, the hull will be built at a yard; modern, automated welding machines (on tracks) do a much cleaner job than my own freehand efforts with an arc welder. I’ll stick to little stuff

Labor and raw materials (low-carbon steel) for the hull actually looks reasonable in Finland—not the cheapest, but reasonable.

But as soon as I start pricing protective coatings, insulation, fasteners—and even native(!) wood for the interior—the price skyrockets beyond anything offered elsewhere in Europe.

I could just imagine paying 25-euro each time I need a simple stainless steel bolt. The prices for the little details are seriously-out-of-the-ballpark. The Rostock, Germany area looks to be the best all-around for building. Reasonably priced labor and a wide selection of competitively priced materials and hardware.

Same pricing with the vacation cabin. Sometimes, the big, expensive items (e.g. appliances, excavation) are reasonably priced. But there are enough other things to break the budget. In fact, I bought lots of materials (floor tile, wood, shingles etc.) from Germany. Saved about 30% to 50%.

I always thought a floating sauna would be nice. I have thought of
building a floating summer cabin / sauna on top of a Marinetek floating concrete pier and putting a motor on it to move it around.
In that way, I could make use of “every man’s right” and not have to buy expensive shoreline land to have my summer cabin on.

http://www.marinetek.fi

Labor and raw materials (low-carbon steel) for the hull actually looks reasonable in Finland

How can that be, with TAXES and everything?

Re picture: When the libertarian dream gets realised in Finland, with its inevitable economic consequences, I’ll build the world’s first marine trailer park!

Yeah boating rules. And the perks of having winter in Finland with boating is that you need to get your boat out of the water over wintertime. Thus, the bottom of the boat will be cleaned from all the crap it gathers during the season. Then think about boats of any kind in e.g. Greece. Because of the weather, the boats are in the water year around, imagine what grows on the bottom of these boats which never get cleaned.

Boating enthusiasts actually sound like motorcyclists in Finalnd in they wave and say hello to people (as long as you’re one of them.) Suppose it has to do with the short season and being able to put up with being “friendly” for a few months each year

Yeppers, the season might be short, but we make the most of it…

…and how the heck am I supposed to get all my precious beer & vodka *hic* to the cottage on the island without a boat..?!?

Yesh… now we’ve got Pamela “Hyytiäinen” Anderson looking for a cottage in Finland as well… and starting up a strip-tease chain called Lapland..? heh.

“How can that be, with TAXES and everything?”

Like I said, the price seems competitive at first glance…until you look closely at the details. Then you see that it’s MUCH more.

“Re picture: When the libertarian dream gets realised in Finland, with its inevitable economic consequences, I’ll build the world’s first marine trailer park!”

No, it’s already at that point (see picture above). Liberalizing the market would only help.

Most workers in places like Lappeenrannan are piss poor. They might earn the same nominal amounts as their counterparts in c. Europe, but it all gets spent on—e.g. paying double for their cars (due to car tax), double for restaurants on weekends (not to mention lunchtime meals at 7- or 8-euro, each time), about 30% to 50% more on many consumer goods and of course high income taxes…..

It’s a paycheck-to-paycheck life, with no savings. And please don’t tell me that they get all these great benefits that only exist in Finland. Everyone in Europe has universal healthcare, schooling, etc.

There’s no magical compensating factor in Finland. The system only survives because people are willing to live with low-expectations for themselves.

LOL..I wonder if a marine trailer park would be a magnet for waterspouts

Yes, it would be easy to predict trajectories of dangerous weather patterns

This weekend in Savo, I bought a small juustohampurilainen and small CocaCola Lite. Price: 5.90-euro.

Despite the ripoff price (over 50% higher than EU norm), the kiosk person was wearing clothes from the kierrätyskeskus. Poverty, socialism style, for sure.

And no, again, the same social benefits as anywhere else in Europe—healthcare, schooling, etc. But Socialist ideology keeps them poor.

heh…

Mitä insinööri sanoi ekonomille..?

– “Big Mac ja pieni kokis.”

@12 Hate to tell you this Kristian, but everyone in Savo dresses like a homeless, including the brother of my sister in law who owns his own building company in Kuopio and drives around in a brand new Audi A6, but dresses in typical warm-ups and Valtra baseball cap.

14: I would really like to get my hands on one of those authentic orange Hankkija-caps. It’s just so great.

I was surprised to find out that all the asuntoauto drivers wave to each other. I almost drove off the road when it happened. Imagine, a Finn being randomly friendly.

But socialist ideology keeps them poor.

Yes, employers should really get rid of their socialist ideology and pay their employees better. But I won’t hold my breath. Last week that über-socialist, Antti Herlin, again sat on top of his billion euro fortune and whined something about rising wages.

Kristian

You are quite a wanker, aren’t you? Phil writes a positive post about a very positive subject but even still we can’t escape your snobbish whining.

And stop crying about those hamburgers, for fuck’s sake.

I was surprised to find out that all the asuntoauto drivers wave to each other. I almost drove off the road when it happened. Imagine, a Finn being randomly friendly.

Don’t you know that karavaanari on kaikkien kaveri?

I could just imagine paying 25-euro each time I need a simple stainless steel bolt. The prices for the little details are seriously-out-of-the-ballpark.

Hey Kristian, instead of bitching and whining, why don’t you start a stainless steel bolt importing business in Finland? As they are allegedly available in Germany for 25 cents apiece, if you sold them for the competetive price of 20€, your only worry within a couple of years would be setting up your own charitable trust. Nudge nudge, wink wink.

Most workers in places like Lappeenrannan are piss poor.

But they don’t live in trailers, do they? Seriously, life is pretty sweet if you happen to earn a median salary (about 2500€/mo) and face the negligible housing costs of way beyond Ring III. For paper workers it’s another ball game entirely (but how long the party lasts is another matter).

“Hey Kristian, instead of bitching and whining, why don’t you start a stainless steel bolt importing business in Finland?”

Yes, and to whom will I sell them? The poor Savolaiset? You don’t seem to understand that the products being sold are already at the lowest prices the economy can bear—the overtaxed Finnish economy that is.

“But they don’t live in trailers, do they?”

No, thankfully the urban planning is excellent in most of those places. Flats, though small, usually have balconies and are relatively clean…

“Seriously, life is pretty sweet if you happen to earn a median salary (about 2500€/mo)”

Sure, but it would be even sweeter with regular EU market prices for everything. Don’t you think?

Sure, but it would be even sweeter with regular EU market prices for everything. Don’t you think?

You are always speaking about these regular EU market prices. But, in reality I can only think (and I base this on my experience alone) that you must mean the newer, less developed EU countries when you compare.

In addition to Finland, I have lived in the UK and I currently live in Sweden. I cannot say that I feel that the overall burden on my wallet is any different in any of the three. Certainly, the distribution of where the money goes is different. If anything, I would say that the UK was the most expensive by a hair due to the high prices for accommodation and utilities.

“You are always speaking about these regular EU market prices. But, in reality I can only think (and I base this on my experience alone) that you must mean the newer, less developed EU countries when you compare.”

No, as I mentioned above, I’m referencing Europe’s so-called economic engine, Germany. Given Finland’s close geographic proximity, I don’t see why there should be such a great difference in prices.

But, there is. Each project I’ve priced—cabin, flat renovation, boat build—has proven about a 30%- to 50% more if I’d bought all materials in Finland. The differences are significant because the cash outlays are significant—3K savings here, 7K there, is significant! To me, anyway.

These are aside from the everyday expenses of maintaining a life—like car ownership, eating, entertainment, etc.—which add a few extra thousand-per-year in Finland.

Buying as much stuff abroad as possible helps to diminish the overall cost. But, it’s a shame for the Finnish economy, because it only compounds the loss. And naturally it’s a hassle for me….but a necessary hassle until it gets fixed.

Phil… I need help. Can you do this?

This spelling checker uses the open source package Speller Pages, with the GNU Aspell library. It’s very similar to the spell checkers you’ve probably seen in programs like Microsoft Word.

Kristian, buy your fasteners from reliable industry suppliers whose prices are essentially identical everywhere on the globe. If you even then see big price differentials, make sure that you are not comparing between V4A and V2A fasteners. Counterfeit merchandise is flooding this market.

Howdy

Hmm, Kristian, my intellectually challenged net friend, could you perhaps post some statistics about social mobility in the various industrial countries? For some reason the Nordic countries with their excellent open educational systems and wide reaching safety nets tend to do wonderfully well in this respect. Take a wild guess in which country your parents’ wealth better predicts your own economic success: the USA or Finland? I believe feudalism already proved conclusively how “fair” it is to compete based on your parents’ or foreparents’ success. My slogan would be: open all societies for fair and free competition! Everyone should be able to get ahead based on his or her own abilities, no matter in which section of society they were born. This is what the Nordic model aims to do – curiously that is exactly what the “libertarians” would dismantle first. One would think that they would like free competition.

Oh, and Turku Archipelago certainly is wonderful – Phil, many of those happily waving people were Swedish speaking, so it doesn’t count, they could have even been sober, for God’s sake! I have visited Houtskär many times, it has more islands than permanent residents (who are all totally mad and Swedish speaking), amazing, unreal landscapes and lovely, welcoming atmosphere. People seem to be very relaxed and easygoing there. (Sorry to admit, but that might be largely due to the small Finno-Ugric presence among the natives…)

many of those happily waving people were Swedish speaking, so it doesn’t count, they could have even been sober

Haha, I was tempted to make that comment as well. But I thought I best not.

mjr: “Take a wild guess in which country your parents’ wealth better predicts your own economic success: the USA or Finland?”

Actually, I’m using Germany’s price scale as a basis to describe what is lacking in Finland. Not America’s. But I guess you didn’t read that part. A bit reading challenged, mjr?

Of course. And to you, it’s all the same anyway. That’s because the overpriced and undynamic ‘Nordic model’ is all you know. So it must be right.

Bravo Kristian. “Social mobility……” That cracks me up every time I hear it (still)

Yes, and to whom will I sell them? The poor Savolaiset?

Why, Kristian, all the fatcats, of course: Alko employees, bank clerks fattened by high-interest loans caused by autovero, civil servants puffed up by all that tax money and the like. Those types are loaded after fleecing the Finnish consumer for so long! And let’s not forget all the other import business owners!

Sure, but it would be even sweeter with regular EU market prices for everything. Don’t you think?

I wonder what those “regular EU market prices are” In London, for instance, about everything seems to cost pretty much the same as in Helsinki – only in pounds. Except the tube of course, which still has a coefficient of 2 thrown in.

But yes, Germany is pretty cheap. I was considering moving to Frankfurt at one point, but I’d have to learn German first. (Achtung! Himmel! Mein Gott!)

Phil… I need help. Can you do this?

This spelling checker uses the open source package Speller Pages, with the GNU Aspell library.

winnie, winnie, winnie! What’s this? Trying to spell right, using commie libraries no less! Shame on you! Have you totally wayved the French white flag of surrender?

I can help you with your computer troubles, especially when they involve commie licensing, but I’ll charge $250 an hour. We’re living in market-based system after all…

If you took a ride to the countryside with Lada at one time, everybody greeted you for sure. Not out of general courtesy, but somebody in the village surely had a Lada with the same colour and they mistook you for this person they knew.

(Zum teufel, they are coming from the sun)

“Computer troubles? naw, I glow in the dark keeping the evil computer working for global warming. Its my evil fingers that need help. The brain went on cheep rum rations, and dancing with the 30 sailors, so its not to blame either.

By the way Vodka was $2.80 a Liter, in the store. I am sure it was rot-gut, as it was in a plastic bottle.

#30 Surely you’re not suggesting that people are borrowing money just to buy a family car? I mean it’s not like you’re buying a house now and I hardly see executive series cars on the streets of Finland let alone Italian, British or German sportscars. (which may warrant a loan)

The taxes might kill you upfront, but you get payback later.

I had known that the costs to pull a boat and launch it were VAT free. Now I am hearing that there are no taxes to import a boat into Finland. Can that be true?

The trick is finding friends with a boat, or if none, go and rent one. This way you have one when you want, and leave the headaches to someone else.

Phil,
If you do get a boat, keep in mind that you fly the US Flag in Finland, even if it is registered in Finland as there is a provision that the flag flown represents the nationality of the Captain, not where the boat is registered. If you do that, be sure that you have the Finnish guest flag up as well.

Punty:
I hardly see executive series cars on the streets of Finland let alone Italian, British or German sportscars.

Maybe not in your buttfuck town, but I see them daily in Helsinki. Obviously quite a few people have money to spare. How strange for a struggling people’s republic.

Fred Fry:
The trick is finding friends with a boat, or if none, go and rent one. This way you have one when you want, and leave the headaches to someone else.

How true. The occasional paint job etc. buys you a few rides a year and a clean conscience. Long live the talkoo spirit.

Punter, I’m glad you find it funny. It is quite a simple statistic really, easy to measure accurately: you simply see where children end up as compared with their parents. In the Nordic countries social mobility is much higher: parents’ success or the lack of it has much less to do with their children’s success. By my reckoning that’s not only amusing, though surely it can be that, in libertarian circles at least, but quite a sign of healthy social competition on a reasonably level playing field. Yeah, cracks one up, every time, yes sirree, who would need that.

Kristian, I don’t know if I should bother answering you any more, I respect your sincere emotions but you seem to lack even the most basic skills for reasoned argument. Of course that might also be due to your ideology that is not really the best starting point for empirical and rational analysis.

Libertarian utopia has one Achilles heal: inheritance. In nature, the son of monkey herd king does not automatically inherit the king position. It has to fight for it along with other strong monkey in the herd.

In our world Libertarism is Darwinism combined with inheritance (like 19th century proved it to be so). Son of robber baron is much more powerful at the beginning than son of some random shoemaker.

That’s why you Americans now have this monkey fratboy as president. The political and economic power of the Bush family was enough to push this idiot all the way up to the presidency. That would not happen in nature among monkeys! What an irony.

Wow Franky, daily in your big city hey? Now, would that happen to be that one big city that I visit daily? Must be as there is hardly even one big city in Finalnd let alone two. Now all those fine cars (no, an E series, 500 series and Toyota Avensis are NOT exec cars) must fly by while I’m working. As for Italian/German sports cars there……. YEP
MJR, the reason for a figure like that being so high in the Nordic wonderworld is as you said comparing how high kids get in relation to their parents. Now, if your parents have little (as in the Nordics) then I see little reason why the kids should struggle to have as much (or less) as the folks??? Seems quite logical to me. “Wow, I inherited and payed tax on dads cottage, now I’m as successful as him.”

As for Italian/German sports cars there……. YEP

For instance, Ferrari would be Italian and Porsche German. You don’t even necessarily know how to read to spot them, but then again I might still be giving you too much credit.

It’s true that Maybachs and Bentleys are seen less frequently. I actually happen to agree with Kristian on attracting high net worth individuals. Even a negative tax progression wouldn’t be such a bad thing.

Now, if your parents have little (as in the Nordics) then I see little reason why the kids should struggle to have as much (or less) as the folks???

Ah, now I see. You don’t have the foggiest idea what is meant by social mobility. Fools do tend to giggle at things they don’t understand.

Hmm, Punter, last time I looked the Nordic countries are quite affluent indeed – we even have billionaires, that single measurement of society that Kristian uses for his universal “evaluation” of countries. In my home town of Espoo you certainly see that people have gotten ahead using their own initiative. The difference being that in many of the cases they often come from quite modest environments indeed having taken the benefit of our excellent – and free – educational system (plus various other wide reaching safety nets). Social mobility is a crucial measurement in the sense that it also shows to what degree have the current social elites managed to close the doors behind them. A natural human impulse that unfortunately will stifle – when succesful – free social competition based on your own individual qualities and capabilities. Strange that you “libertarians” seem to hate this idea of free and fair competition so much… One wonders why.

mjr:
Strange that you “libertarians” seem to hate this idea of free and fair competition so much… One wonders why.

Why, it should be obvious from this blog that they can’t compete on an open market. The natural response is to try to close the market. It’s basic economics, really.

“Why, Kristian, all the fatcats, of course: Alko employees, bank clerks fattened by high-interest loans caused by autovero, civil servants puffed up by all that tax money and the like. Those types are loaded after fleecing the Finnish consumer for so long!”

That’s the ironic part about it: Despite all the overpricing from which they supposedly benefit, they have a lower standard-of-living than their central European counterparts. That’s because they have to pay those same inflated prices themselves. Nobody wins.

But hey, great SOCIAL MOBILITY in the Nordics. If father owns a raft. Then son might own a raft with trailer on top. Or visa versa. LOL!

Heck even Drudge is now beeting the BBC in on line ratings.

Now thats free and fair competition. Folks don’t want the BBC bias any more, so they are walking away from left wing news sites.

Its not economics, its free choice.

“: Despite all the overpricing from which they supposedly benefit, they have a lower standard-of-living than their central European counterparts.”

So that seems like create market opportunity, so why you are not underpricing? Start your on company and see it for yourself.

The problem with Americans is this: They do not have any kind of decency, meaning common sense. Three minor crimes like shoplifting might give you life sentence. Gun control is a joke. They like guns in case government might get too uppity….but:

Well, now they have almost dictatorial presidency and those same gun owners are supporting that dictatorship! Take for example “winter” here. He is behaving like android, repeating like some Jugend Junior the same talking points over and over again. He is living in that Republican “USA NUMBER ONE” bubble.

The problem with Europeans is this: They are totally incompetant to run the world, whine a lot, and when the USA does anything, because they did nothing, complain.

But then again, you all know this.

At least when you complain about decency, ask you self about Darfur, you did nothing, and the Yugo war, where you called in the no common sense folks to do your dirty work.

Yea, where is your decency.

“So that seems like create market opportunity, so why you are not underpricing? Start your on company and see it for yourself.”

Because it’s already at bottom, given the tax system.

I thought you were smart enough to realize that. Unless you think Finns are too dumb to figure out how to make a profit by undercutting?

Of course, another way to answer that, since we’re talking about “Alko employees, bank clerks fattened by high-interest loans caused by autovero, civil servants puffed up by all that tax money and the like.”

Get rid of Alko, Autovero, etc. and maybe I’ll take your advice by starting a company and underpricing them all. If someone else doesn’t beat me to it.

“The problem with Europeans is this: They are totally incompetant to run the world, whine a lot, and when the USA does anything, because they did nothing, complain.”

Why you want to rule the world. Even France could hit you with their 200 nukes and that means you are dead. You hit back, you get UK nukes. You hit back even more and 3000 Russian nukes comes back. So what is the point?

Even one russian MIRV hitting New York would mean whole eastern seaboard evacuation, almost all the way to Florida. Two of them, one hitting near New York and one Florida, would mean There would be no EAST COAST OF AMERICA.

“Why you want to rule the world.”

we don’t, you gave us the task, by your inaction.

Just ask youself, why did the usa who was never attacked by Yugo’s, have to go in for you? Doing your dirty work?

The answer may help.

“we don’t, you gave us the task, by your inaction.”

Actually, no. It was every man drafted during 1950-1990 in the Western Europe. And the Soviet forces were within from 400 miles to ONE METER (BERLIN).

winter: “If your “underlying beliefs or theories” made you stick your dick in the blender, even “reluctantly,” (THAT MEANS IRAQ) and you haven’t thoroughly reassessed these concepts, I frankly don’t want to hear your advice about what to do with the weed whacker. “(IRAN)

Source:
http://whiskeyfire.typepad.com/whiskey_fire/2007/06/buzzards_and_dr.html

Suomeksi: Työnnä saatanan winter tehosekoittimeen munas perkele. Viljapuimurilla ne jeesukset erotetaan akanoista.

34. Here you go again, Punter liar and fool – “I hardly see executive series cars on the streets of Finland let alone Italian, British or German sportscars. ” & 39. “Now all those fine cars (no, an E series, 500 series and Toyota Avensis are NOT exec cars) must fly by while I’m working. As for Italian/German sports cars there… (I doubt you are trying to make the point that even though don’t see them, you trust that these cars exist in Finland)

Are you going to promise to buy me one of these cars that you suggest don’t exist in Finland if I show you it does?

You do have a title and reputation as a blustering, gloating, liar and fool earned by shooting off cocksure comments to pump up your aura of worldiness and making flamboyant offers you didn’t intend to keep.

Maybe you could try redeem a little credibility – make (and then keep) this offer and slough off a bit of the stench of dishonesty hanging over you.

“Heck even Drudge is now beeting the BBC in on line ratings.” – winturd

And what, exactly, are ‘online ratings,’ peenis breath?

“I frankly don’t want to hear your advice about what to do with the weed whacker. “(IRAN)”

naw, Iran is your problem, I did see a note that the best selling item in Germany right now, is a Nuke Bomb shelter.

Any one want to tell us why? It is so safe to be near Iran, I hear. Your best friends, I hear. You are supporting them in Lebanon, I hear.

Phil,

People by boats for the same reason some mad people buy expensive cars with no roof, no heating, no padded seats, no windscreen and over 300bhp/ton that they can only use a few months a year… cos they want to have some fun

The FFT pattern of late – Phil finds something genuinely nice to say about Finland and it is usually an interesting read until winter sets in for some arbitrary comments, and Kristian’s compulsion on bashing the tax system.

That aside. Phil, is there a photo-gallery? Surely you took more than one photo?

I have to agree with David in comment 60. It’s making it all a bit boring and repetitive of late.

Communists cant handle the truth. Grow some balls boys and leave Kristian alone. Poor fuckers.

62: We would like nothing better than to leave Kristian alone. Unfortunately, he doesn’t seem to want to let us leave him alone.

I have to say, this forum is almost as fun as the sfnet.keskustelu.evoluutio newsgroup.

Get rid of Alko, Autovero, etc. and maybe I’ll take your advice by starting a company and underpricing them all. If someone else doesn’t beat me to it.

Kristian, there are those who do and those who talk. Libertarians tend to fall to the latter category.

Every boat waved to one another, even the people on the shore waved. Of course they were all drunk

A friendly advise: don’t get drunk if you’re steering a boat, during Juhannus in particular, or the police could get you. The limit is somewhere around less than five-six beers for a male of your size (I suppose). Two percent of the Finnish boaters according to the police statistics fail to meet the criterion. The result can be surprising; you can even get your drivers license canceled. The rest of the “crew” can naturally be as drunk as they like, unless the skipper tells them not to. And he probably will – in a sailing boat in particular. If he doesn’t he’s not really up to his task, in my humble opinion.

The tiresome habit of waving to everybody has nothing to do with alcohol, though. Motorcyclists do the same, by the way. And I don’t think they’re all drunk.

many of those happily waving people were Swedish speaking

This is so unrealistic comment that I doubt you’ve ever been out there. Finnish speakers outnumber Swedish ones by – what – something like 1 to 50. In places like Rymättylä, Kakskerta, Kuusisto and so on even more.

Even if only the permanent residents are counted the archipelago is slightly more Finnish than Swedish. But naturally in the summer the place is full of Suomi-poika – you know those sullen drunkards who don’t know how to piss in a boat. Come to think of it, they belong to an altogether different race, as you pointed out, which is incapable of adopting the civilized life style which so well describes certain Swedish-speaking kids in places like Pargas (but remember to avoid those who carry a baseball bat and are looking for somebody to take a swing at).

Then again, after having spent about every summer on the archipelago, it’s really strange, taking into account how friendly they are, that it’s usually the Swedish-speaking neighbors who you will not get to know. Perhaps they just don’t want to get involved with the lower species unless they can do it by waving from a distance. And I’m not kidding, it seems that the last outpost of the Swedish racism in Finland lingers on there, among the few remaining local rednecks. One of our neighbors held a grudge against – not only us Ugrics – but also against those Vikings who had sold land to us.

By the way, the ferry to Nauvo carries more passengers over in a year than there are pilgrims to Mecca. Heh.

Well, my personal observations are from the overwhelmingly Swedish speaking areas and a large proportion of the boaters too seem to be Swedish speaking. I have found them generally more easygoing than Finnish speaking Finns, but this doesn’t make them saints of course.

67 was from me – should I confess that I’m quite a fan of “pakkoruotsi” also…

Nr 66, It’s interesting to note that there are no organisations of Swedish-speakers that are openly calling for discrimination against the Finnish speaking compatriots. Yet, there are organisations that openly are discriminatory against the Swedish speaking population. Of course, that does not necessary reflect opinion… it may just reflect numerical reality. As a minority, I think we know that sometimes we must just let some things go.

I am not going to deny that there are some Swedish speakers who do have prejudices against Finnish-speakers, but I think as a whole it is to a far lesser degree than that amongst some Finnish speakers. Although having said that, I don’t find that much prejudice amongst either language group.

I have mentioned it before, but there is a good book called Muukalainen Muumilaaksossa that is worth a read.

(PS I hope someone makes an entry on the Sipoo decision that has now been made by the government).

Oregon & Sunwind 31, did we meet at Hirvensalmi last weekend?