Sweden stopped companies selling private peoples’ salary data, but …
@ 10:15 pm I went to the website www.ratsit.se, which is provided by Eniro, and out of curiosity tried to find out what an anonymous person could search for. This website used to sell personal economic data about private people, but they were forced to stop on June 16 this year.
I thought up a common sounding Swedish name. I put “Karin” in the förnamn field and “Blomqvist” in the efternamn field and “Stockholm” in the postort field and hit the green “gratis” button to see what it would give me. Soon, I got a list of names, birthdates, and street addresses. The list started with the oldest and ended with the youngest. The youngest person there was a 17 year old. If I tried another name, I wonder if I would I find even younger people?
It makes me wonder what the use case for this kind of thing is. I can’t really think of a useful purpose for something like this, unless it is for middle-age Internet chatroom perverts.
Come on government of Sweden, if you are going to start protecting your peoples’ privacy, do it right. Don’t let them put the name, birthdate and street address of underage people in the Internet. Sheesh.
Ever heard about phone book? People are getting way too excited about privacy and internet.
Think about it you could even find a phone number!
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, Jun 20th, 2007 @ 11:16 pm
The phone book doesn’t have your private financial information written in it. Plus, you can keep your name out of the phone book completely, if you choose. But, you can’t keep your name out of the tax records in Sweden.
What Sweden does is against European Union’s Data Privacy directive, and it is also against the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
Think about it, anyone can pay a drug addict to retrieve your personal financial information from the tax office in Sweden–Legally!
Or just think about all the immigration problems they are having. It’s just a matter of time before someone gets burned…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QLomLsArm4
Swedes, what a bunch of foolish clowns.
Comment by Kristian — Wed, Jun 20th, 2007 @ 11:21 pm
By the way, Finland has a similar problem. Check this out…
http://www.verosirkus.net
Comment by Kristian — Wed, Jun 20th, 2007 @ 11:32 pm
This Ratsit lookup didn’t have phone numbers, only names, birthdates, and street addresses.
Comment by sirkuspelle — Wed, Jun 20th, 2007 @ 11:43 pm
Is phone call necessary before kidnap/extortion?
Comment by Swedes are dumb — Thu, Jun 21st, 2007 @ 12:01 am
I can’t really think of a useful purpose for something like this, unless it is for middle-age Internet chatroom perverts.
Umm. A little alarmist are we? I would think it’s much easier finding possible victims in the playgrounds or school yards than searching for their addresses online.
Comment by Anonymous — Thu, Jun 21st, 2007 @ 2:30 am
Don’t cry about it.
Besides phone books, electoral roll details are published in many countries and the info is freely available.
A UK example is here http://www.192.com/search/people.cfm try a search for John Smith in London, I see you can also find who various Johns live with. By registering with the site you can get even more details including a cute map to help guide you to John’s place.
I’m not a drug addict “anyone can pay a drug addict ” but I’ll take payment for search these records for you.
Comment by pi — Thu, Jun 21st, 2007 @ 7:29 am
This Ratsit lookup didn’t have phone numbers, only names, birthdates, and street addresses.
So then you cal 118 (or whatever the operator service is) and ask for Karin Blomkvist’s number, the one who lives at such-and-such…
Comment by Hank W. — Thu, Jun 21st, 2007 @ 8:32 am
Kidnappers don’t need your tax info - kidnapping happens in Spain (headline in the past month), UK, Germany, US, and just about anywhere in this world. They don’t even need to know where you live - you can be kidnapped in a park or a restaurant.
Then you have the trusted, big private-sector companies (HP, IBM…etc) losing laptops that contain thousands and thousands entries of personal detail, or even banking detail in US. (Now by law they are required to disclose this info.)
Then you have those online shops that require you to enter so much information, you might wonder if they will get your first-born when you don’t pay up.
Sure, privacy is important, and it’s the first step towards security. But don’t get the false sense of security just yet.
Just think about how long tax info was available for, even before Internet became popular; and the low level of crime in Finland in the past. It’s probably worthwhile to study the reason behind it. (This is what U.S. Department of State Bureau of Consular Affairs said:
“CRIME: Although the crime rate in Finland is low compared to the U.S. and most European countries, it has increased in recent years. However, Finland remains a relatively safe environment. Americans visiting Finland are seldom victims of crime, but visitors should not be complacent regarding personal safety or the protection of valuables. The same precautions employed in the U.S. should be followed in Finland. Finnish police services are excellent, however, some police officers speak little English. Due to the low crime rate, Finland has one of the lowest numbers of police of any European nation. Outside of key sites in major urban centers, they rarely project a visible presence; consequently, response times to crisis situations may be unpredictable. The telephone number for police and other emergency services throughout Finland is 112. All forms of public transportation are considered safe. Street crimes, such as mugging and pick-pocketing, remain relatively uncommon, but do occur.” )
By the way, Forbes publishes the richest people on earth every year. Ever wonder what the richest people think about that?
Comment by David — Thu, Jun 21st, 2007 @ 11:23 am
Think about it, anyone can pay a drug addict to retrieve your personal financial information from the tax office in Sweden–Legally!
Such a person would be a bit stupid, when you can get the information for free yourself by ringing Skatteverket.
I think the law change in Sweden was a good thing. I agree, it is quite unacceptable that private-sector firms sell tax information. I still think they need to tighten the law further, as Ratsit.se is still offering tax information for a fee (but now they have to tell the person who is “looked up” that an enquiry has been made, which they did not have to do before).
In my opinion, as I have stated before, this information should only be handled by the tax authority itself. The person should always be informed that they have been looked up and by whom. I do believe in the open society that we have, but these days sadly it does need some controls.
Comment by JG — Thu, Jun 21st, 2007 @ 12:26 pm
“Just think about how long tax info was available for, even before Internet became popular; and the low level of crime in Finland in the past. It’s probably worthwhile to study the reason behind it.”
I don’t follow your logic.
Comment by Anonymous — Thu, Jun 21st, 2007 @ 3:47 pm
Maybe David is pointing out that having tax info available apparently never increased crime rate - at least to a measurable degree, so it’s unlikely that it would suddenly start to do so?
Seriously, you libertards can whine as much as you want about having tax info available, only thing it achieves is making you look like you have something to hide.
Seriously, regular people care very little about it, they check out few notable persons out of curiousity when papers release the information, but that’s it. Criminals don’t seem to care, and why should they, you can figure out who has stuff worth stealing even without knowing how much money they make. No doubt that there are few overly curious old ladies who will check out every neighbor’s info, but so what? Why should you care what few people who have no life of their own do?
Or do you libertards make so *little* that you feel like you need to hide it?
Comment by Anonymous — Thu, Jun 21st, 2007 @ 4:22 pm
“But, you can’t keep your name out of the tax records in Sweden.”
Wow, I thought only Finns were so stupid. Sweeden too? It is like drunk who always goes down dark sidewalk, counting his money while the world watches. Eventaully something bad happens.
I agree with Kristian 100%. It shouldn’t be.
Comment by Brian — Thu, Jun 21st, 2007 @ 6:14 pm
Really I’m still in total awe. Letting anyone see your salary and finances is stupid when you think about all the financial crime out there. Just my opinion and rest of worlds I’m sure. Really bizarre !
Comment by Brian — Thu, Jun 21st, 2007 @ 6:23 pm
Seeing as this is at least the 5th time this has been blogged about, and god knows it was dull even at the start, can anyone who wants to make the same whiney absurdo libertarian claims as above please for the love of god show even one piece of evidence that the availability of data causes real harms - kidnappings, frauds, tax-related sex offenses, rich people killing themselves in shame at people finding out how loaded they are etc etc.
Until then there isn’t even a sane place for a debate to start. “Kristian thinks its crazy” really isn’t the silver bullet argument many people here seem to think it is.
Comment by Rich — Thu, Jun 21st, 2007 @ 9:23 pm
#14- Don’t know about it increasing the risk of crime but surely that kind of information is private or at least should be? Just a common decency question IMHO.
Comment by Punter — Thu, Jun 21st, 2007 @ 9:31 pm
#14: here is a piece of evidence that something bad happened because of public tax records. It is from an official parlaiment discussion. The first link is the original document, and the second is my unofficial translation about it. Incendentally, it is about children, who had their tax records in Veropörssi. Here you go:
Original in Finnish
http://www.eduskunta.fi/faktatmp/utatmp/akxtmp/kk_992_2004_p.shtml
translation in English, by me:
http://www.verosirkus.com/KK_992_2004.html
And after you read that you can read the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights, article 12
http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html
The EU Convention of Human Rights, article 8
http://conventions.coe.int/treaty/en/Treaties/Html/005.htm
and the Charter from the Council of the European Union, article 8
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/charter/pdf/text_en.pdf
Comment by sirkuspelle — Thu, Jun 21st, 2007 @ 9:40 pm
“…Sweeden too?…”
Especially Sweden. I bet this whole tax record thing originates from times of Gustav II Adolf warfare state. “Worlds best public record system” was established then to make him able to tax and draft everybody to kick some catholic butt and pillage half the Central Europe so that few years ago, they were still sending some stuff back to Prag with apologies.
Comment by Antti rn — Thu, Jun 21st, 2007 @ 10:13 pm
15. Punter BGLF - Just a common decency ! That’s rich coming from you! Honesty is a common decency and you’ve demonstrated contempt for that principle. Your HO is not credible.
Comment by pi — Fri, Jun 22nd, 2007 @ 7:32 am
It’s natural that people want to feel a sense of privacy, and people are entitled to have it when it does not infringe other rights. My point is, privacy does not equate to security. They are related, indeed, but one doesn’t automatically imply the other. You can have privacy without security (say, get robbed in Germany where privacy law is relatively stricter), and vice versa (have your info published in Sweden or Finland.)
What I see here, is to use fear (i.e. lack of security) as a tactic to get privacy protected. But it doesn’t really make one’s life more secure and live in less fear.
Security is a separate issue in our daily life. It involves prevention, management, damage-control (and maybe some more that I am unaware of.) Prevention is not necessarily about hiding away your info, although it’s one possibility. Some prevention measures would be: raising the barrier to commit a crime (more active guards / police, more effective monitoring and reactive systems…); reducing the gain from a crime (revert the fraudulent transactions, harsher sentences…); and education (appealing to ethical, emotional senses and rational reasons. being alerted when encountering fraud.) Management will be about how and who to share and trust with your info. Damage-control will be about how to deal with the leaked info and reduce the loss.
You don’t get all of those by simply asking for a bit financial privacy. It requires a bigger system to focus on each and every aspect.
Back to my earlier post on “safer” Finland (and thank Anonymous for supplying some missing logic.) Finland has never been geographically separated from Europe, yet the crime rate is relatively low even with all the info published all these years. I think it’ll be an interesting study case (i.e. is it that Finns are more honest? less greedy? feeling more equal? or too drunk to commit a crime? or is it the quick transition from communism to capitalism? or is the steady growth? or is it the culture?) Frankly, I think Finns have much to learn about their own strength, and I would say it is not necessary to copy whatever other people are doing (like, Sweden.)
Comment by David — Fri, Jun 22nd, 2007 @ 11:08 am
“and I would say it is not necessary to copy whatever other people are doing (like, Sweden.)”
I totally agree. In fact, despite Sweden’s new procedures, its acts are still illegal according to European Community Law (see Directive 95/46/EC), United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights, OECD’s directives and others, by exposing people’s private financial information via the tax office.
So, following Sweden’s lead will only cause more legal trouble for Finland in the long run. But above all, it is simply wrong to expose anyone to unnecessary danger. The danger might not exist in Finland per se, but it very readily exists outside of Finland
For example, Finns routinely visit vacation resorts in relatively poorer countries, where any hotel clerk can get a pretty good idea of a particular Finn’s financial worth. The temptation to commit crime might easily be too hard to resist.
Will acting responsibly and sealing-off all access to personal financial information insulate someone completely from crime? No, obviously not. But it will help. And at very least, it will give the impression that Finland isn’t some place with foolishly naive practices. Hence, it’s also about credibility and helps in the big picture, whether you think so or not.
http://www.verosirkus.net
Comment by Kristian — Fri, Jun 22nd, 2007 @ 12:14 pm
“Seeing as this is at least the 5th time this has been blogged about, and god knows it was dull even at the start, can anyone who wants to make the same whiney absurdo libertarian claims as above please for the love of god show even one piece of evidence that the availability of data causes real harms”
What’s your opinion on the Patriot Act in the US? Bet your against that and it’s not near as much of an invasion of privacy of the average citizen as this garbage in Finland.
Comment by Anonymous — Fri, Jun 22nd, 2007 @ 5:52 pm
#19 The public tax records got there in the first place from Finland copying everything that Sweden does.
And again, I reiterate my link I posted. There is a security problem.
http://www.eduskunta.fi/faktatmp/utatmp/akxtmp/kk_992_2004_p.shtml
Comment by sirkuspelle — Sat, Jun 23rd, 2007 @ 5:54 pm
Kristian:
For example, Finns routinely visit vacation resorts in relatively poorer countries, where any hotel clerk can get a pretty good idea of a particular Finn’s financial worth.
Yeah. This is why the platinum Amex should also be made illegal.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Tue, Jun 26th, 2007 @ 8:47 pm
Antti:
they were still sending some stuff back to Prag with apologies.
I bet they included the disclaimer that it was the actually the damn finnjävels who did it.
“Hakkaa peelle…”
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Tue, Jun 26th, 2007 @ 8:52 pm