Low expectations in Finland
This is quite disturbing for Finns, from Helsingin Sanomat…
Whereas the average expectation [in Finland] for annual pay for graduates of both genders was EUR 28,700 last year, this year it is an average EUR 29,400.
[...]Pay expectations are also at a higher level than in Finland. Danish students expect about EUR 46,500 a year, while the Norwegians hope to get EUR 42,600 and the Swedes want more than EUR 32,000.
Good luck attracting the world’s top young people and professionals with salaries like that. I think Kristian is really on to something in his recent article, something in Finnish society is keeping wages way too low.
Finns just don’t have a culture of demanding for more, they’re very content with what they have (Americans are the complete opposite, they’re constantly demanding) - I think it has something to do with Finland’s recent economic history and Lutheranism. I’m not Lutheran, but the religion seems to have instilled a fear into Finnish culture (even the non-religious), that bad things will happen to them if their wants exceed their needs. Humbleness isn’t a bad thing, salaries is one exception however.
And Finland has only recently seen economic prosperity. It’s like telling the former communist countries that “Hey, your 10k/year salaries suck!!” and they reply “Are you kidding? A few years ago we weren’t making even 1k/year!” It’s all relative. And of course let’s forget Finland’s extremely high youth unemployment of 21.6% surely translates into low salaries.
I don’t know if this is disturbing or not. Lower salaries are excellent for keeping your country competitive since companies can offer products and services more cheaply than they otherwise would. It might also push more people to become entrepreneurs which is also good for the economy if they are effective.
I would also note that the figure for Denmark is not quite what it seems. Finnish employers pay quite a lot of tax on top of what you see on your pay slip towards your pension and other things. Danish employers do not which is why income taxes are much higher in Denmark to make up the shortfall. Your tax home pay is the same (or much less different) even if your headline salary seems much higher in Denmark.
Comment by Jon — Mon, Jun 18th, 2007 @ 3:45 pm
Phil, where do you get the 21,6% for youth unemployment? The HS reported only a couple pf weeks ago the Eurostat figure of 17,7% for Finland, which is still high ( a percent above EU average), but a lot lower than your number.
Comment by Drakon — Mon, Jun 18th, 2007 @ 3:55 pm
“I don’t know if this is disturbing or not. Lower salaries are excellent for keeping your country competitive since companies can offer products and services more cheaply than they otherwise would.”
Competitiveness at the expense of Standard of Living.
Actually, I think what it means is that Finland isn’t optimized for the international marketplace. Sure, big corporations are doing fine, but there’s no competition for labor from smaller enterprises.
For that matter, who would start a smaller enterprise in Finland that seeks business from abroad, considering the financial exposure risk?
Also, I think Sirkuspelle is onto something even bigger concerning the reasons for Finland’s low expectations…
Comment by Kristian — Mon, Jun 18th, 2007 @ 4:15 pm
Phil, where do you get the 21,6% for youth unemployment?
UNDP 2005: http://hdr.undp.org/reports/global/2005/pdf/HDR05_HDI.pdf
Comment by Phil — Mon, Jun 18th, 2007 @ 4:54 pm
So it’s reasonable to expect 46,500€ like the Danish do, if only you demand it? Do you really think Finns are so stupid that they don’t have the nerve to demand more even if they could almost double their salary? BTW, how much are you making?
Comment by Anonymous — Mon, Jun 18th, 2007 @ 4:58 pm
Finland always stays poor with big tax and “verosirkas” system. Funny but very sad.
Comment by Anonymous — Mon, Jun 18th, 2007 @ 5:17 pm
It is getting kind of annoying that only negative studies are cited here. As we know there are quite many that have Finland top of the league on various fields. Not that I would be much of a believer on those either (nothing can be as misleading as an international study comparing completely different kinds of societies), but it is kind of pathetic to see this negative cherrypicking that is going on here. Name a prejudice and anyone can find an international study to support it - it needs much more integrity to take in also studies that don’t support your preconceived notions. That kind of an intellectual integrity seems to be in short supply on this site.
Comment by mjr — Mon, Jun 18th, 2007 @ 5:23 pm
FYI, Denmark and especially Norway are more expensive countries than Finland. No comments on salaries though, I would definetely use some more money if I had any.
Comment by Gnu Pope — Mon, Jun 18th, 2007 @ 6:41 pm
Name a prejudice and anyone can find an international study to support it - it needs much more integrity to take in also studies that don’t support your preconceived notions. That kind of an intellectual integrity seems to be in short supply on this site.
You hit the nail on the head there.
Comment by Passer-by — Mon, Jun 18th, 2007 @ 9:14 pm
You could just work for the BBC then
“BBC accused of institutional ‘trendy left-wing bias’ ”
BBC
Comment by winter, "Yea, Proton Power, now in remission" — Mon, Jun 18th, 2007 @ 10:48 pm
Same old news is boring. There are plenty of other websites for that. At least we try to improve things here.
Comment by Kristian — Mon, Jun 18th, 2007 @ 11:03 pm
Good Luck with your campaign against the BBC, Winter. You won’t get anywhere here because nobody here is going to bite the hands that feed them.
Comment by maaksalaatikko — Mon, Jun 18th, 2007 @ 11:08 pm
Humbleness isn’t a bad thing, salaries is one exception however.
So, high salaries are inherently valuable, and it would be better to be discontent and strive for a bigger salary instead of being happy with a low one and concentrating on things that actually matter in life?
I beg to differ.
(As a student living on about €300 a month, I don’t know what I’d even do with an annual pay of €29 400. Well, aside for giving to charity.)
Comment by Kaj Sotala — Mon, Jun 18th, 2007 @ 11:35 pm
“it would be better to be discontent and strive for a bigger salary instead of being happy with a low one and concentrating on things that actually matter in life?”
I don’t think it’s that simple, because it affects many things from healthcare to retirement to public services, etc. It’s not just about feeling good in your 20’s…..although that’s a good reason too
Seriously, low salaries in Finland is a problem for all age groups. And just to be clear, it’s not the salaries themselves that are the problem. It’s the underlying macroeconomic reason that causes them.
Comment by Kristian — Mon, Jun 18th, 2007 @ 11:41 pm
And by the way, that 29K is GROSS pay. It’s probably the average starting salary in the US, too….in about 1986.
Just wait ’till you pay double-price for your first car. Then see how much you’ve got left over at end-of-month after making loan payments to cover autovero.
Comment by Kristian — Mon, Jun 18th, 2007 @ 11:50 pm
My first car? You guys never heard of public transport? ;p
Comment by Kaj Sotala — Tue, Jun 19th, 2007 @ 12:06 am
Yes, of course. It’s my favorite way to travel. Unforturnately, it’s a bit sparse. Another consequence of the low-expectations/salaries problem.
Comment by Kristian — Tue, Jun 19th, 2007 @ 12:11 am
“nobody here is going to bite the hands that feed them.”
actually I thought it was funny, the BBC, had a study done on how left they were. When they admit they are left.
So why study it? Duh. What a waste of Pounds.
Comment by winter “Yea, Proton Power, now in remission†— Tue, Jun 19th, 2007 @ 4:41 am
“low salaries in Finland is a problem for all age groups.”
why do you want more? It all goes to the Government anyway. No real incentive that I see here.
Comment by winter “Yea, Proton Power, now in remission†— Tue, Jun 19th, 2007 @ 4:45 am
LOL…only in Finland would you get people taking the side of the low salary. Yeah, move to Finland and make 1/5th of what you made back home because what would you do with the other 4/5ths anyway! That’s some kind of pavlovian conditioning.
Comment by hfb — Tue, Jun 19th, 2007 @ 8:08 am
>>>>(As a student living on about €300 a month, I don’t know what I’d even do with an annual pay of €29 400. Well, aside for giving to charity.)
Kaj, wait until you’re NOT a student anymore and not getting your inexpensive HOAS accommodation, 50% reduced travel, and many other student discounts, and then I think you’ll reconsider that decision. And that’s €29,400 before taxes..
Comment by skall — Tue, Jun 19th, 2007 @ 9:55 am
Again, I think this might have connections to the tax records being for sale, downloadable, available via SMS. When a potential employer is inverviewing you, and asks what is your former salary, you cannot get away with a lie. And you are not able to negotiate a much bigger salary. Having the salary information available everywhere ties peoples’ potential salaries to their current ones, and ties peoples’ salaries to those of people around them. If someone is hired with a bigger salary than the people in the department around him or her, even with a valid reason, then that will cause certain trouble.
Finland’ public salary information is partly to blame.
Comment by Sirkuspelle — Tue, Jun 19th, 2007 @ 11:54 am
People don’t dare to demand more then they deserve, and they feel they don’t deserve more than what those around them make.
Jante’s Law at work adn public tax records playing their intended role.
Comment by Sirkuspelle — Tue, Jun 19th, 2007 @ 12:04 pm
“Americans are the complete opposite, they’re constantly demanding”
That started from baby boomers, previous generations (at least working class) were rather humble ones, “In God we trust, all others pays in cash” kind of straightforward people.
Nothing is more annoying than waiting in line while at the back of the line one or more American bitches are complaining loudly or even trying to go to the front of the line. Some of them behave like spoiled brats, even if they are 50 year olds.
Comment by tim73 — Tue, Jun 19th, 2007 @ 12:15 pm
Well, keeping low expectations AFTER you tried the best to achieve what you wanted seems to be the best way for not feeling “failure” if the result turns somewhere you don’t like.
Everything has certain degree, if a person is too ambitious, they’re likely to force themselves to speed up everyday, finally they can’t stop at all even if they want to; if a person has no motivations for anything, then they are dead! I’d say most of us are somewhere between the two extremes, it just depends on to which end you’re closer to…
Comment by Frances — Tue, Jun 19th, 2007 @ 12:40 pm
It’s all well and good to “demand” more money, but if the money is not in the employers budget, it’s not there. I can “demand” 50K more, but if they don’t have it, what’s the point?
One thing I noticed in Finland is that employers keep costs to an absolute minimum. In my old company in the US where you got: free coffee/tea/espresso/lattes, employer sponsored monthly lunches, paid nights out at bars, Christmas and other bonuses, gift cards for good performance, etc. In Finland, they told me coffee was free, but I had to bring my own milk if I wanted milk. They never paid for our lunches. If we went out, the company never picked up the tab. Which is all fine, but really different than what I was used to.
The Christmas party was hugely different as well: instead of a night out in a great restaurant with open bar, it was a company dinner with takeout food in the meeting room with a couple six-packs. Just a much smaller scale. Because, the fact was, they just could not afford to do more.
It just seems like many companies here are barely keeping their heads above water and simply cannot *afford* to pay people more. And employees really have no choice because (on a grand scale) there is not a huge amount of places to work here. Especially in certain fields.
Yes, the salaries may suck, but as the old saying goes: “You can’t get blood from a stone.”
Comment by Well... — Tue, Jun 19th, 2007 @ 5:45 pm
About lower expectations, Port of Los Angeles, May 2007:
Inbound containers loaded:
361,683.05
Inbound containers empty:
7,191.25
IN TOTAL:
368,874
Outbound container loaded:
134,349.50
OUTBOUND CONTAINERS EMPTY:
178,320.75
TOTAL OUTBOUND:
312,670.25
For starters, about 55 000 containers are LEFT EMPTY in the US every month. It is not even economically feasible to haul them back to Asia. THAT IS how bad Americans are doing at the moment. Really bad.
Comment by tim73 — Wed, Jun 20th, 2007 @ 12:05 am
hfb:
LOL…only in Finland would you get people taking the side of the low salary. Yeah, move to Finland and make 1/5th of what you made back home because what would you do with the other 4/5ths anyway! That’s some kind of pavlovian conditioning.
There’s another way of looking at it. Finland offers opportunities for a relatively comfortable life on smaller income. While I enjoy the liberties facilitated by higher income, the knowledge of the possibility of getting out of the rat race is somehow comforting. That’s the conformist, slacking Finn in me.
skall:
Kaj, wait until you’re NOT a student anymore and not getting your inexpensive HOAS accommodation, 50% reduced travel, and many other student discounts, and then I think you’ll reconsider that decision.
Indeed. We finally got kicked out of our HOAS apartment and are looking at double our current rent. The good news is that we’re moving to Eira (well, close anyway) and will have a balcony with a sea view.
Unless the landlord somehow decides that our PK value isn’t sufficient, it isn’t signed yet.
The problem with the welfare state tends to be that people take the handouts for granted. While I’m happy to finance Kaj’s pursuit to do something else than flip burgers for the rest of his life (which is the inescapable fate of many in more freedom-oriented societies), I’d certainly appreciate if he realised that the funds for this don’t grow on trees.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Wed, Jun 20th, 2007 @ 12:25 am
One example of hollow shell is hfb (American), http://www.axis-of-aevil.org/archives/
She tried all cakes, desserts but nothing more deeper than soups. Typical American, all skin.
Comment by tim73 — Wed, Jun 20th, 2007 @ 12:28 am
tim73:
For starters, about 55 000 containers are LEFT EMPTY in the US every month. It is not even economically feasible to haul them back to Asia. THAT IS how bad Americans are doing at the moment. Really bad.
Now, if the USA imports e.g. soybeans from China and exports music, films, software and management consulting services, how do you think that will affect the containers?
Yes, there’s a trade deficit measured in dollars as well.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Wed, Jun 20th, 2007 @ 12:33 am
FF: there is about 50-60 billion dollar trade deficiat black hole every MONTH and that is about the price of Iraq war until now from 2003 EVERY YEAR.
Comment by tim73 — Wed, Jun 20th, 2007 @ 12:41 am
Back in 1995 January, Port of LA:
In loaded:
113,898.80
In empty:
9,823.70
Out loaded:
67,974.50
Out empty:
34,000.00 - 33.34%
Comment by tim73 — Wed, Jun 20th, 2007 @ 12:47 am
Freeridin’ - “There’s another way of looking at it. Finland offers opportunities for a relatively comfortable life on smaller income. While I enjoy the liberties facilitated by higher income, the knowledge of the possibility of getting out of the rat race is somehow comforting. That’s the conformist, slacking Finn in me.”
I suppose that depends on what you consider comfortable. The thought of not having anything pushing me to do better and being paid about as well as a wal*mart clerk didn’t really do it for me. I suppose if I hadn’t ever had a real job with real demands and high expectations it wouldn’t have been such a comedown…but you know, Nokia does pay real salaries outside of Finland….
Tim73 - “She tried all cakes, desserts but nothing more deeper than soups. Typical American, all skin.”
LOL…Uh, I’m a baker…i.e. I bake..but I did try quite a few other things. From my own observations, it would seem that baking and cooking in general, especially of the traditional variety, are not very common in Finland unless you consider using frozen dough and fillings ‘baking’. Maybe you should actually read it, but you’re just an idiot kneejerk troll and not a very smart one at that.
Comment by hfb — Wed, Jun 20th, 2007 @ 6:49 am
hfb: It seems you belong to a group of shallow people who let the money they have define their worth as human beings, instead of taking pleasure in small things in life and just enjoying themselves. I feel truly sorry for you.
Comment by Fat Bastard — Wed, Jun 20th, 2007 @ 10:44 am
Fat Bastard - Uh, no, I belong to a group of people who like to work hard and get rewarded for it. I have high expectations…that doesn’t make me shallow. I’m not really sure why so many Finns seem to equate getting low wages with depth. It just makes you a slave for the man who is shopping daily at Stockmann.
Comment by hfb — Wed, Jun 20th, 2007 @ 4:10 pm
hfb:
I suppose that depends on what you consider comfortable.
I consider not having to live under a bridge and resorting to begging, petty crime or prostitution comfortable compared to the alternatives.
The thought of not having anything pushing me to do better and being paid about as well as a wal*mart clerk didn’t really do it for me
Me neither. Choice is a great thing, innit? Come back and we’ll provide you with properly compensated work without no stinkin’ holidays or sick leaves or maternity leaves.
but you know, Nokia does pay real salaries outside of Finland….
I’m well aware of that. They don’t completely nickle and dime you when you’re working as a consultant billing by the hour in Finland either.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Wed, Jun 20th, 2007 @ 7:25 pm
Finn less shallow cause poor HA HA HA !!!!
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, Jun 20th, 2007 @ 8:51 pm
“I consider not having to live under a bridge and resorting to begging, petty crime or prostitution comfortable compared to the alternatives.”
What, instead of drinking and passing out in the public parks while living on the dole?
There are hard cases and there is no system to adequately treat a lot of what ails the homeless, but if you have an education or merely a desire to work and make something of yourself you generally aren’t going to live in a cardboard box in the US.
“Me neither. Choice is a great thing, innit? Come back and we’ll provide you with properly compensated work without no stinkin’ holidays or sick leaves or maternity leaves.”
*Ahem* Might I remind you that you don’t get /any/ holiday normally with the first year and the holiday length is variable as well as the system so inscrutible that it makes the US system seem extraordinarily straightforward. Granted, the family and maternity leave is a real gap, but here I can afford to stay home for a few years or more whereas there, no. Also, there are problems with regard to maternity leave and discrimination in Finland so it’s not exactly the paradise the glossy brochure promises.
One thing I found incredibly frustrating in the Finnish workplace was the inability to get things done if it required any other person to get it done since on any given week the liklihood of someone being out sick, out on family leave or, especially during the summer, on holiday made things go maddeningly slow. And don’t get me started on paying system support contracts in cash up front 3 years in advance and still not getting evening (read past 3pm) and weekend support. I even tried to move maint windows to the weekends since it would disturb users far less than during mid-day on a weekday but that was considered impossible due to the labour laws and budgetary constraints.
Comment by hfb — Thu, Jun 21st, 2007 @ 4:49 am
HFB, I agree with what you’re getting at, and the discussion and comments you’re receiving is exactly what’s wrong with Finland - not just a lack of, but utter contempt for, ambition and success.
I’d argue that the biggest problem is that the system and the people actually de-motivate and de-moralize anyone against “making it big”. I’ve seen a number of companies sold to an outside buyer because few Finnish business leaders have ambition beyond their first €1M — rather, at that point they sell their business to an outside buyer and are content with what they’ve achieved.
I know what Fat Bastard will say at this point - so let him say it - but the point here is actually that we NEED ambitious and greedy people who, after their first €1M, want to make €10M, then €1000M. These are the Michael Dells that create 1000s of jobs out of pure excitement of the game — and with that, prosperity to the people they employ.
Comment by maa — Thu, Jun 21st, 2007 @ 10:04 am
Maa, what has ambition and success to do with money? You may need some money (more or less) to survive and be able to fulfill your ambitions (if you have any), but that’s just about it.
Comment by Timo — Thu, Jun 21st, 2007 @ 12:16 pm
I agree that greed and ambition drive the economy. A system that rewards people who pursue their ambitions in honest and only honest ways is absolutely the best one at wealth creation.
However, personally I enjoy a more reflective and quiet way of life. I have no use for large houses and expensive cars or the high socioeconomic status that they indicate. I do have ambitions but they do not manifest in the economic arena.
I do understand why people like Finnpundit are angry with people like me. The Finnpundits of the world would like to engage in as much economic exhange with others as possible to realize their ambitions.
Comment by Markku — Thu, Jun 21st, 2007 @ 12:21 pm
An addition to the above: I do value time, and I realize that time, or at least time beyond the natural lifespan of unenhanced humans, does not come free. So, although I’d loathe to spend money on any status symbols, I am interested in the products of biotechnology to extend healthy lifespan.
Comment by Markku — Thu, Jun 21st, 2007 @ 12:24 pm
Markku: “So, although I’d loathe to spend money on any status symbols, I am interested in the products of biotechnology to extend healthy lifespan.”
I agree to a certain extent; I’m also not interested in status symbols. They would only draw more attention to me when I’m urinating in the alleyway.
However, those products of biotechnology wouldn’t exist without the ambitions of Michael Dell types. I’ll say that even though I’m not one of those types myself. But they are needed nonetheless.
Unfortunately, Finland chases them away.
Comment by Kristian — Thu, Jun 21st, 2007 @ 2:47 pm
Finland chases them away?
Ah, so you mean the zero billionaire’s in Finland Problem again?
And yes it is a problem, no M. Dell or Bill Gates types left in Finland.
Comment by winter, "Yea, Proton Power, now in remission" — Thu, Jun 21st, 2007 @ 6:19 pm
Ahem…We just learned that Antti Herlin of Kone elevators fame is now a billionaire…
Comment by Antti rn — Thu, Jun 21st, 2007 @ 10:38 pm
Kristian:
However, those products of biotechnology wouldn’t exist without the ambitions of Michael Dell types.
Well, that may be true for commercial implementations. However, companies wouldn’t know where to begin with them without basic research, which in turn is funded by tax money from the Michael Dell types as well as the rest of us. It’s quid pro quo and everyone benefits. This is something that ideologue buffoons on either end of the political spectrum find impossible to grasp.
Indeed, the progress of science depends largely on people who have ambitions beyond making a buck or two. It’s hard to image Max Planck or Albert Einstein spending their days staring at a stock ticker.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Thu, Jun 21st, 2007 @ 10:45 pm
Ahem…We just learned that Antti Herlin of Kone elevators fame is now a billionaire…
And how about Nalle? Surely he’s at least close after the Sampo sale?
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Thu, Jun 21st, 2007 @ 10:47 pm
hfb:
What, instead of drinking and passing out in the public parks while living on the dole?
As far as I know, it isn’t a requirement for receiving unemployment benefits. Or even working a low-paying, low-stress job.
*Ahem* Might I remind you that you don’t get /any/ holiday normally with the first year
Wha? Did you get shafted by your Finnish employer? So much for the fabled Finnish honesty!
(Four weeks after the first year, five after that)
Granted, the family and maternity leave is a real gap, but here I can afford to stay home for a few years or more whereas there, no.
Perhaps you can. Those working McJobs can’t. But why should we give a fuck about them?
it’s not exactly the paradise the glossy brochure promises.
Did you get a glossy brochure? I got one that promised salaries in excess of $300k in the States, the coefficient being 5 IIRC. Somehow the job adverts promise a bit less.
I even tried to move maint windows to the weekends since it would disturb users far less than during mid-day on a weekday but that was considered impossible due to the labour laws and budgetary constraints.
Funny, at my last gig maintenance was always done at 4 am or after 9 pm, depending on the system. Perhaps that f-place you were at did things a little differently.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Thu, Jun 21st, 2007 @ 11:07 pm
“…he’s at least close after the Sampo sale?”
Not to mention the title of EU subsidy king for Salo (or was it Halikko) mansion. And we are talking about this guy here:
http://www.yle.fi/player/player.jsp?name=El%E4v%E4+arkisto%2F03421_1&locale=sv
(Guy with sunglasses, soon after the old geezer in the beginning.)
Comment by Antti rn — Thu, Jun 21st, 2007 @ 11:13 pm
“Perhaps you can. Those working McJobs can’t. But why should we give a fuck about them?”
Oh, please, again, if you have an education you generally aren’t going to be living in a box or at wal*mart. Not to mention that I know very few Finnish women who stay home or can afford to do so after the state paid/subsidized year leave. Single mothers in Finland live in poverty just as much as those in the US do, too. I thought that was an interesting story when I read it.
And just for the record, I don’t think I ever had a US job where I didn’t get any holiday time for the first year….and I generally had 4-5 weeks holiday time…the trouble was taking it.
Comment by hfb — Sat, Jun 23rd, 2007 @ 2:13 am
Yeah, I think that the Finnish youth should have much more unrealistic expectations. That way they would be much happier.
And it’s indeed clever to point out that the wage expectations and the real salaries correlate perfectly. Wish for more and you’ll get it! The labor market has nothing to do with such boring things like supply and demand.
And anyways, where do you put commas and such in English. Could somebody finally tell me?
Comment by Anonymous — Sat, Jun 23rd, 2007 @ 12:00 pm
Certainly, hfb. Then again, education is more a matter of choice than fate in Finland.
I’m not so sure about the poverty of single mothers. Possibly if they’re trying to get by with their salary alone, but no-one gets so much money thrown at them by social services. Not that I object out of principle, but for some women getting knocked up is a gateway to the easy life.
In the States, I guess this varies from state to state. I understand that as far as welfare states go, MA isn’t far behind Finland.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Sun, Jun 24th, 2007 @ 1:45 pm
“but for some women getting knocked up is a gateway to the easy life.” …
Bitch, please…:) There are days when I think that it would be like a vacation to go back to the 5-day grind when I can barely get a meal or a pee break with the kid. Seriously, I don’t think they get much money and the way it limits your options and earning potential…only the dumbest of the dumb make that mistake.
As far as MA and Finland being similar….yes, there are similarities in some legislation and taxation, but money doesn’t rain down on the single mothers, no.
Anonymous - “Yeah, I think that the Finnish youth should have much more unrealistic expectations. That way they would be much happier.”
What, expectations that deviate from the expectations you are taught to have from an early age and are told to have in common with everyone else? It’s true, expectations lead to disappointment…much like my high expectations of Finland were…met with disappointment. You have to have lofty goals and expectations to offset grim reality and disappointment.
Comment by hfb — Sun, Jun 24th, 2007 @ 4:13 pm
Kristian:
“Markku: “So, although I’d loathe to spend money on any status symbols, I am interested in the products of biotechnology to extend healthy lifespan.â€Â
I agree to a certain extent; I’m also not interested in status symbols. They would only draw more attention to me when I’m urinating in the alleyway.”
Heh.
“However, those products of biotechnology wouldn’t exist without the ambitions of Michael Dell types. I’ll say that even though I’m not one of those types myself. But they are needed nonetheless.
Unfortunately, Finland chases them away.”
Of course they are needed. I said in the first message above the one you’re quoting, that greed and ambition drive the economy. And what Freeridin’ Franklin said about utterly non-commercial basic research and practical applications is also correct.
Comment by Markku — Mon, Jun 25th, 2007 @ 1:08 pm
53: You just proved Franklin’s point. You made your own life miserable by having unreasonable expectations. Therefore the only culprit for your unhappiness in Finland was you, all by your lonesome.
Now, doesn’t it feel liberating to finally be able own up to your own inadequacies and failings?
Comment by Fat Bastard — Mon, Jun 25th, 2007 @ 7:06 pm
Since we are talking about expectation Finns have, I cannot help to bring this up. We have had this recent serious trouble with KELA, and you can read about it here. http://www.jadeisabaddog.blogspot.com/
Thing is now after having talked with so many friends and people about this, we get to know loads and loads of problems people have had with KELA.
It is a simple truth that the system has many problems and people suffer. But it does not seem anyhow likely that the public would finally stand up and demand for things to be put in order, disregarding how much complains and whining people do.
So, doesn’t it seem so that Finns in general expect less from others, from the society, from their work, and so on? That they would rather suffer much before they would really rally for a change?
Just for reference also, http://www.mielenterveys-taimi.fi/kipunoita/2004_3/16.htm
http://tonih.iki.fi/tekstit/kela
Comment by Hopeapaju — Wed, Jun 27th, 2007 @ 4:03 pm