What makes Finland’s drinking problem different from everyone else
Many times on here we’ve asked the question, “Why does Finland have a drinking problem?”, and there’s certainly more than one answer. Some say it’s the darkness and cold weather, although there’s other cold dark countries nearby without the same big problem. Others blame it on high unemployment rates, but there’s other countries with even higher unemployment without a big drinking problem. And others blame it on Finland’s “only drinking on Friday & Saturday night” culture, unlike the “glass of wine with your meal” culture found in Southern Europe. And of course you can’t mention Finn’s drinking problem without mentioning the high prices, high taxes, and monopoly on alcohol - but again, look to our neighbors.
I’ve said in the past that Finland’s drinking problem has to due with the safety of this country, you can pass out drunk on the street and wake up with your clothes, wallet, and not a bruise on your body, so people know it’s safe to get wasted in public - but again, there’s plenty of safe places without a drinking problem. All of these are valid answers and together formulate Finland’s drinking problem, but I was trying to figure out what specific to Finland makes alcohol problematic, and I think I found something…
A few days ago Kristian was writing about Finns aren’t the most talkative people in the world. In fact, most Finns and foreigners will tell you that Finns are the quietest people on the planet! Finns in general are shy, nervous, introverted, reserved, self-conscious, unassured and unsocial. Not necessarily bad traits, in fact Finns are quite proud of these traits. A lot of good comes from a society who share these attributes.
But seriously, which individual really wants to be shy, nervous, introverted, reserved, self-conscious, unassured and unsocial..? Not many. It doesn’t help you during your interview, it doesn’t help when you demand a raise, it doesn’t help you when you’re out on the town, it doesn’t help when you’re trying to pick up girls or guys, and it doesn’t help around the house with your spouse.
So what cures shyness, ends nervousness, transforms you to an extrovert, removes your reservations, clears your self-conscious, makes you more assured and turns you into a social person?? Alcohol!! “Drink this bottle, wait five minutes, and be cured of your worst fears and problems.” After a few drinks you’re suddenly peppy, happy, relaxed, and chatting with the opposite sex - which is especially relevant for young people, which gets Finns drinking at an early age.
Of course that magic elixir doesn’t last forever, it eventually wears off and you’re back to your normal shy/nervous/introverted/etc self. So you need to drink more and more, and problems materialize. This is what I think makes Finland’s drinking habits so different, Finns are the most introverted people on the Earth and need alcohol to open up, cause no one really like being so bottled up.
Thoughts anyone?
All the Socialist states have the shyness trait, don’t they? And the accompanying drinking problem?
As for me…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8VlcbndXdM
Comment by Kristian — Sun, Jun 17th, 2007 @ 9:29 pm
I lived in Helsinki for eleven months, and I think you might be onto something here. I attended lukio as a second-year student and so I was obviously introduced to the young drinking scene, which is shockingly prevalent (or at least was to my conservative and idealistic American mind - hah!). But you’re absolutely right - the Finns take a strange kind of pride in their solitude, yet are so quick to shrug it off with the aid of alcohol when they find they’d like to enter a situation that requires a bit more social interaction. It’s a weird kind of social bipolarity and until that’s recognized as a problem rather than a solution, I really don’t foresee any kind of change.
Comment by Cecily — Sun, Jun 17th, 2007 @ 9:40 pm
Talking about shy Finns… check out this link: http://www.iltasanomat.fi/urheilu/uutinen.asp?id=1386303
Comment by AV — Sun, Jun 17th, 2007 @ 9:53 pm
What a timely post, I just finished blogging about the Systembolaget in Sweden and its effects on the people here!
http://www.zezeran.com
Cheers!
Louis
Comment by Louis — Sun, Jun 17th, 2007 @ 10:06 pm
I agree that this factor is certainly one of the reasons, together with all the others you mention as well. I don’t think any one of them are single-handily the cause.
People moan that the Swedes, Norwegians, Russians, Estonians (etc) and even the English are also not amongst the most talkative of peoples. Looking at all of those countries, they have similar drinking habits to Finland… so it certainly would appear to be a factor.
I mean, I have to drink at least half a bottle of Koskenkorva before I can even think of engaging with you guys in debate on here!
Comment by JG — Sun, Jun 17th, 2007 @ 10:12 pm
Hey Phil and others, check this out:
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200303/rauch
I’ll post a longer comment when I have time, but that’s just hell of an article. Everyone should read it.
- The Proud Introvert
Comment by Passer-by — Sun, Jun 17th, 2007 @ 10:13 pm
All the Socialist states have the shyness trait, don’t they?
Maybe, but Finns have more than just shyness. Alot of those Eastern Block countries are accustomed with haggling for the products and services they need, this is rare in Finland, and you need to be a bit of an extrovert to haggle all the time.
Comment by Phil — Sun, Jun 17th, 2007 @ 10:50 pm
Phil has a drinking problem. I’m pretty sure.
Comment by fascist phil — Sun, Jun 17th, 2007 @ 11:22 pm
Phil,
This is good. Your onto something.
FF
Comment by Fred Fry — Sun, Jun 17th, 2007 @ 11:36 pm
Ok, first of all.
Finns in general are shy, nervous, introverted, reserved, self-conscious, unassured and unsocial.
Are they really? Because I don’t think it’s been established anywhere.
All the Socialist states have the shyness trait, don’t they? And the accompanying drinking problem?
Finland is not socialist. It’s one of the most free countries in the world economically.
Comment by Anonymous — Sun, Jun 17th, 2007 @ 11:54 pm
Phil:
And of course you can’t mention Finn’s drinking problem without mentioning the high prices, high taxes, and monopoly on alcohol - but again, look to our neighbors.
Sweden, Russia, Estonia and Norway? So these don’t have a similar drinking culture? There isn’t a drinking problem in Russia? Now that’s a new one.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Mon, Jun 18th, 2007 @ 12:01 am
No drinking problems in Russia, Sweden,Norway,Estonia?
Comment by Roope — Mon, Jun 18th, 2007 @ 12:04 am
Certainly, but I think Finland’s situation is quite unique, as is Russia’s.
Comment by Phil — Mon, Jun 18th, 2007 @ 12:24 am
Young people binge drink from Canada to New Zealand. You go to any kind of European working class town and every weekend there is one big “let’s get wasted” party going on, sometimes even riots. Especially UK cities are notorious in this sport. Of course if you live in a friggin disney built gated community, that kind of behavior does not happen out there in open.
Comment by tim73 — Mon, Jun 18th, 2007 @ 12:28 am
You go to any kind of European working class town and every weekend there is one big “let’s get wasted†party going on, sometimes even riots.
This year I’ve spent time in Spain, Italy, France, and the US…I never once saw the kind of stuff I usually see in Finland. We’ve talked about these countries and alcohol in the past, they just have a different drinking culture than Finland.
Especially UK cities are notorious in this sport.
Never really spent anytime in the UK, so maybe UK is a lot like Finland when it comes to alcohol.
Comment by Phil — Mon, Jun 18th, 2007 @ 12:32 am
Estonia and Russia drink but swedes dont pinge drink according of statictics they pingedrink least in Europe.
Comment by katas — Mon, Jun 18th, 2007 @ 12:42 am
Lets see, free health care, lets drink and get a free liver.
Now in a market based approach, you drink, you pay higher insurance rates, you prob tend to cut it out a little.
Well not true, I still party will the dunkin Sailors on the boat until the wee hrs. Darn good rum to, and cheep.
Comment by winter “Yea, Proton Power, now in remission†— Mon, Jun 18th, 2007 @ 1:12 am
Phil, nail hit on head.
When I lived in Finland I was amazed at how much drunken behaviour in public places I saw, far more than London. Young kids don’t have much to do in Finland apart from drinking 12 packs in parks. High taxes limit purchasing power, which in turn limits the supply of leisure.
The Finns love of alcohol also is due to their represive conformity culture. That’s why the sucide rate is as high as Japan, another country that has the same social repressiveness.
Phil, as someone who lived in Finland: get out, go back home or somewhere else! Life is too short.
Comment by Anonymous — Mon, Jun 18th, 2007 @ 1:21 am
Ever heard of Botellon, Phil?
Mass street drinking sessions fuelled clashes between Spanish youths and riot police early on Saturday, leaving 80 people injured and 70 arrested in Barcelona and Salamanca, police said.
That said, Botellons are usually big fun, and enjoyed without riot police.
The greatest boozehounds I’ve personally ran across have probably been Georgians. (Referring not to your redneck Georgia, yanks, but to a country in Europe. You know - with history, culture, cuisine, vineyards and all that.) They are also very sociable and communicative folk, very curious to meet and chat up with strangers.
I do have a strong distaste for attempts to form grand theories out of social issues. Humans are a little bit more complex things than machines.
Comment by Aapo — Mon, Jun 18th, 2007 @ 1:37 am
The link for #18.
Comment by Aapo — Mon, Jun 18th, 2007 @ 1:39 am
I don’t think drinking helps with getting a raise.
Comment by Fägäri — Mon, Jun 18th, 2007 @ 3:03 am
I was a resident of Turku for 12 months, as a 17-y-o foriegn exchange student. I can certainly account a great deal of my alcoholism from my beloved time well spent in Suomi. I just wanted to say that I don’t necessarily view Finland’s drinking situation as a “problem” per say.. but rather, a “situation”. I currently live in the greater Miami, Florida area and south Floridians are on the town every night, getting shit-faced every night, etc. (not exactly a place to pass out and expect to wake up with your belongings). But, for the most part, these people in south Florida are arrogant pricks who over-indulge in substances. Finns, as Phil has noted, simply liberate themselves to enjoy life on a caliber to which would be unthinkable to them while sober. Its like Jim Carrey in “The Mask”. Finns drink and mask their fears. I’d rather drink with a Finn than anyone else. You’ll never meet a more genuine person than a Finn!
Comment by Ryan — Mon, Jun 18th, 2007 @ 4:46 am
There is some basis for alcoholism being genetic, too. The part of the US that reportedly drinks the most is…MN, WI and MI…where the Nordics settled. Alcohol is a drug, just like nicotine or pot or other highly addictive psychoactive substances. I always loved the line ‘I don’t do drugs’ delivered by a Finn totally bombed on cheap beer or jet fuel. It’s just that alcohol medicates well enough on its own.
Of course, it could just be Finland as I drank more in my time there than I would have ever drank elsewhere. Every social event is a drinkfest. You drink in the summer because it’s, well, summer and you drink in the winter because it’s, well, dark and cold. It helps you sleep ..or not. It’s a social lubricant. It’s a floorwax. It’s a dessert topping. People don’t drink like that when they’re happy…which is why I never did believe the surveys about Finland being one of the happiest countries.
Comment by hfb — Mon, Jun 18th, 2007 @ 7:14 am
#18 Aapo: What about some evidence for your claims that Georgians are big boozers. Do you have an article or something to base these claims on?
Personally, I think the alcohol problem and the high suicide rates might have a connection. I think Jante’s Law might have something to do with it all.
All the “Jante’s Law” countries have drinking problems. (Nordic) Jante’s Law in a nutshell: “You are a nobody. Don’t think that you are special.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jante_law
http://trishwilson.typepad.com/blog/2004/05/the_second_dead.html
Everyone is special, and every individual’s success is a positive thing.
In non Jante’s Law cultures, where individual achievements and success is something that is respected and supported, I suspect that there is not as much of a drinking problem. But who knows?
Comment by Sirkuspelle — Mon, Jun 18th, 2007 @ 8:39 am
I also think you may be on to something here. As the proverb goes, juo ittes mukavaks ja seura kauniiks (drink yourself pleasant and the company pretty)…
Comment by Anna — Mon, Jun 18th, 2007 @ 8:54 am
Yeah you’re right, but it’s nothing new really and it’s one of those things among the other things that apply. Kids from Spain that come here embrace the “let’s get wasted” mentality. Why we have this drinking mentality is a good question but then again, quite a lot of countries’ cultures have a “let’s get wasted” policy. Whether it is booze or marijuana or other ways to get your head messed up, I think it applies to a whole lot more countries than Finland. Kids partying and drinking alcohol has little or nothing to do with the people with a real problem who collect their welfare just to spend it wasted to get by another day.
Comment by Keksi — Mon, Jun 18th, 2007 @ 9:42 am
I’ve just returned from weekend vacation in Barbados, and I was SURPRISED by the number of drunken Brits roaming the streets of St. Lawrence.
The Fins might be drinkers, but I honestly wonder if the Brits have us all beat in this category. The group we partied with could certainly hold their liquor better than I could!
Comment by funkybrownchick — Mon, Jun 18th, 2007 @ 9:53 am
“Never really spent anytime in the UK, so maybe UK is a lot like Finland when it comes to alcohol.”
The British press constantly writes about the national binge drinking problem.
Comment by Markku — Mon, Jun 18th, 2007 @ 10:01 am
I studied in Manchester for a wile and got heavily in the local student life. In the UK drinking is different compared to Finland. In the first case not one night out went by without seeing bad fights. Brits just let go totally and huge amounts of aggression emerge that have been bottled up. Although alcohol leads to a lot of domestic violence in Finland according to surveys, I haven’t seen the same amount of aggression here in public as I have witnessed in the UK. In public Finns just want to get over their problem of being shy to talk. On the other hand, I am not aware that Brits are shy to talk when they are not drunk. In the latter case drinking also serves as a catalyst to get over the pressure of conforming socially. However, Brits usually just let out all their bottled up aggression when they are drunk.
Comment by bafana — Mon, Jun 18th, 2007 @ 12:03 pm
You’re damn right about people not worrying about passing out and waking up completely fine!
I was working security at this town fair (Laitilan Munamarkkinat). At about 2am we noticed some lady was passed out in front of a pub terrace, she was sitting on a garden chair, the bars bouncer was no more than a couple meters away and she was a patron of his establishment so it was his concern. We carried on our “patrol” and we passed by again about an hour later, we find one of our security guys checking her pulse and breathing (we were subcontracted by the organisers to deal with the whole area, those po-dunk bouncers don’t know their arse from their elbows). She seems OK, we call for a taxi and carry on our way.
We pass by again around 3am, she’s still there, just surrounded by drunken concerned folk. The taxi refuses to pick her up from there so they drag her to a place where the cab will. So the just start dragging her on the plastic garden chair. The bouncers springs into action and just trails them (making sure they don’t damage the pubs property). They call the taxi company, who tell them to call the police, who tell them to call the taxi… So the police turn up and refuse to do anything because she lives too far away.
By around 4pm a taxi turned up, and she gets dragged into the front seat (a surprisingly strenuous task) and she gets taken away.
So essentially, even drunks are willing to help out passed out folk and not rob them blind… In most countries it really takes your good friends to make sure you get home safe, and even with good friends out with you, you might wake up on a park bench, hung over, with no shoes…
Comment by Haider — Mon, Jun 18th, 2007 @ 12:47 pm
I think England has completely different problems from the usual Socialist (and formerly Socialist) drinker countries. There’s some historical baggage, probably related to that ‘proper behavior’ culture of the past. Maybe drinking and obnoxiousness is a subconscious form of rebellion.
Also, Brits seem more like sport drinkers to me. Getting wasted is the cardinal challenge. In Finland, getting wasted is merely a byproduct.
Sirkuspelle: “All the “Jante’s Law†countries have drinking problems. (Nordic) Jante’s Law in a nutshell: “You are a nobody. Don’t think that you are special.—
I agree. Jante’s Law exists to lower self-esteem and impede achievement in Nordic society. Actual laws (also in Finland) are based on it. As a result, alcohol provides the surrogate.
Interestingly, the formerly Socialist countries of eastern Europe had anti-achievement social and legal structures that were remarkably similar to the Nordics. They also had the drinking problems, of course.
Comment by Kristian — Mon, Jun 18th, 2007 @ 12:51 pm
#18 Aapo: What about some evidence for your claims that Georgians are big boozers. Do you have an article or something to base these claims on?
I’ve spent five days drinking with Georgians in Georgia and was drunk well under the carpet. Also, in art, Jonathan Wilson’s fine book “Behind the Curtain - Travels in Eastern European Football” has it that “The Georgians have made drinking a way of life, and while there, I lived their way.” (The word ‘football’ in the book’s title refers to so-called soccer, not to American football.)
That’s my evidence. This blog has never been very anecdote-shy, so to speak, when generalisations are needed.
Finns are heavy drinkers but saying that Finnish drinking is different from everyone else’s is just bollock’s.
Comment by Aapo — Mon, Jun 18th, 2007 @ 1:27 pm
Here’s a chart of the biggest boozers as per WHO statistics. The top five are Luxembourg, Ireland, Hungary, Moldova, and the Czech Republic - nervous introverts all, I’m sure.
Comment by a lamb with no guiding light — Mon, Jun 18th, 2007 @ 1:43 pm
We can probably disqualify Luxembourg; as the report states, the country’s numbers are inflated by booze tourism. As for Hungary, Moldova and Czech R.—I’ve spent plenty of time in that region. All are formerly Socialist and indeed shy. I have no experience with Ireland.
We should probably also consider the type of drinking that occurs. Is it binge drinking or normalized? Also, is it only the young people who are getting smashed, or are adults passing-out in the park, too?
We should probably expect it from young people in all regions of the western world. But if adults are doing it too, then maybe they don’t have anything better to hope for in life. That’s Socialism in a nutshell.
Comment by Kristian — Mon, Jun 18th, 2007 @ 2:08 pm
The top five are Luxembourg, Ireland, Hungary, Moldova, and the Czech Republic
Are these the “couple glasses of wine each day with meal” drinkers or “plastered on Friday and Saturday” night drinkers?
Besides, I’m not saying that all people with a drinking problem must be introverts, every country has their own unique reasons.
Comment by Phil — Mon, Jun 18th, 2007 @ 3:07 pm
Sorry but I think that all those answers are bullshit. Finns aren’t heavy drinkers because they are shy and I think the stereotype that Finns are shy and introverted is complete bullshit. If they are so shy and introverted then why do they do so many performing arts? I know many Finns that are outgoing and talkative it just depends who they are around if they are amongst friends or family they are social and pleasant when they are around people they don’t know they aren’t until they get to know you.
I live in Rovaniemi so if I am saying that about the people I know here, then I imagine it has to be even more so further south. I truly believe they Finns get drunk, married, and have kids all because that is a majority of peoples goal. I think that drive or ambitions to do something big with your life which is a staple in American culture is non existent here.
So if your goal is to get a good job with steady pay and have a wife and family beer helps move days along faster and also help with the having kids and getting married part. I really think its as simple as that.
Comment by Kourtney N. Williams — Mon, Jun 18th, 2007 @ 3:11 pm
34: Socialism has absolutely nothing to do with binge drinking. Finns have been binge drinkers since forever, and until very recently (in historical sense) Finland has been an ultra-capitalistic feudal system, where very few people owned practically everything, and everybody else either rented or were in indentured servitude.
I would hazard an semi-educated guess that the local rituals of shamanism and totemic nature worship has had a quite a bit more to do with the drinking than the 20th century socialistic upbringing.
You REALLY should learn more about Finnish history instead of spouting your asinine comments of things you know nothing about. I’ll admit, I’m no expert myself, but at least I have made the effort to lend history books from my local library and actually read them.
Comment by Fat Bastard — Mon, Jun 18th, 2007 @ 3:32 pm
Phil: “Are these the “couple glasses of wine each day with meal†drinkers or “plastered on Friday and Saturday†night drinkers?”
Plastered every night.
One thing that’s interesting though… I noticed in the Czech R. that, when people sit at a restaurant table, the next people to walk in the door will sit at the same table. This is true even if they’re the only ones in the restaurant. All other tables are vacant. Doesn’t mean they’ll talk to each other though.
It’s more common in country towns among older people who lived in the previous era. I guess it’s a way of ritualistic- or forced- socializing. Culturally induced of course; no coercion. I’m sure it won’t stay that way for long.
Also, in East Germany, co-workers shake hands each morning….with everyone they see. Even those at the desk across from them. Is that an open, free and social culture or just an awkward practice that’s considered normal for some unknown reason?
Comment by Kristian — Mon, Jun 18th, 2007 @ 3:53 pm
I truly believe they Finns get drunk, married, and have kids all because that is a majority of peoples goal. I think that drive or ambitions to do something big with your life which is a staple in American culture is non existent here.
I remember in a post a while ago there were statistics about olympic medals (I think) won per capita in different countries. Finland was at the very top of the list. Doesn’t seem something that a non-ambitious culture would accomplish.
Comment by Anonymous — Mon, Jun 18th, 2007 @ 5:03 pm
A tangent of the topic of socializing: why do many Americans not spend their entire holidays instead of beginning theirs late and returning to work early? Is this because they worry about falling out of the social loop at work or what?
The workplace is where a huge deal of the Japanese social life takes place. Personally, I wouldn’t like that. The office is for working. I like to be able to choose the people I hang out with when not working.
Comment by Markku — Mon, Jun 18th, 2007 @ 6:00 pm
Finland was at the very top of the list. Doesn’t seem something that a non-ambitious culture would accomplish.
That’s an exception. Ambition and success is permitted in sports, which is probably why Finns are so fanatical about it.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Mon, Jun 18th, 2007 @ 8:34 pm
#40 “That’s an exception. Ambition and success is permitted in sports, which is probably why Finns are so fanatical about it.”
Really? Why this belief about a fanatical approach to sport in this country? The standard, investment, support and passion for sport in this country is actually, IMHO, very low. A lack of professional and quality sporting events is something Finland could really do with. Maybe now the former Minister is back modelling (hopefully) something mighr happen to improve thias situation.
Comment by Punter — Mon, Jun 18th, 2007 @ 10:17 pm
I remember in a post a while ago there were statistics about olympic medals (I think) won per capita in different countries. Finland was at the very top of the list. Doesn’t seem something that a non-ambitious culture would accomplish.-Anonymous
I think you are confusing competitiveness with ambition they are not one in the same.
Comment by Kourtney N. Williams — Tue, Jun 19th, 2007 @ 5:53 am
Anon - “I remember in a post a while ago there were statistics about olympic medals (I think) won per capita in different countries. Finland was at the very top of the list. Doesn’t seem something that a non-ambitious culture would accomplish.”
Well…when the birthrate goes as low as it has…a medal or two goes a long way.
Comment by hfb — Tue, Jun 19th, 2007 @ 8:15 am
In fact they are not at the top, very high at about 5th I think however the vast majority of medals were won before the level of professionalism increased to modern levels. It seems another example in fact of Finland producing the initial goods in performance but then sitting back down and accepting past glories and mediocracy.
Comment by Punter — Tue, Jun 19th, 2007 @ 9:14 am
DDR had the same phenomenon with lots of medals—I think even more than Finland. It’s a hallmark of Socialist society to perform well in a very narrow range of activities. Also, in both cases, there were no professional sports competing for the talent. Unlike now, professional and amateur were separated.
Comment by Kristian — Tue, Jun 19th, 2007 @ 3:02 pm
You’re right I think Kristian in the The DDR was the top performing nation per capita with a population of around 15 million at the time and constantly in the top 3 at each Olympiad. Of course there were other “reasons” for this performance. As a sports mad Austrlian however,I really do wonder why the sports scene here in Finalnd is so poorly organised and attended? I mean there are basically no “big sports fixtures.” Lack of sponsers is the obvious reason but why do they stay away from sport so much is a mystery.
Comment by Punter — Tue, Jun 19th, 2007 @ 7:43 pm
Sirkuspelle:
In non Jante’s Law cultures, where individual achievements and success is something that is respected and supported, I suspect that there is not as much of a drinking problem. But who knows?
India’s culture could be considered the polar opposite of the Nordics - the caste system is hardly egalitarian, after all. The culture is also highly materialistic. From what I know, alcoholism is pretty common there.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Tue, Jun 19th, 2007 @ 9:58 pm
Punty:
Really? Why this belief about a fanatical approach to sport in this country?
I don’t know, could be living in the country for 30+ years. I couldn’t ever imagine to match the expertise of someone who has it all figured out after two months (or years).
Yes, this fanaticism has somewhat dissipated in recent years, especially in urban areas.
By the way, where’s my cask of Penfolds Grange? Somehow I expect to get obscenities instead, though.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Tue, Jun 19th, 2007 @ 10:16 pm
Freeridin’ Franklin wrote
India’s culture could be considered the polar opposite of the Nordics - the caste system is hardly egalitarian, after all. The culture is also highly materialistic. From what I know, alcoholism is pretty common there.
That is not true. You dont know about India. I am from India. It is not alcoholic country like Finland. You should learn more before you say rediculous things.
Comment by Gupta — Tue, Jun 19th, 2007 @ 10:36 pm
That is not true. You dont know about India. I am from India. It is not alcoholic country like Finland. You should learn more before you say rediculous things.
Well, I don’t know the all the 1bn Indians personally, for sure. Of the people I do know (of), surprisingly many are or have been alcoholics. It surprised me as well, particularly as the people in question were Muslims. But I guess I’d have to spend some time there to get to the heart of the matter.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Tue, Jun 19th, 2007 @ 10:45 pm
Actually Franky it’s over 14 years and at least in that time I would certainly not have claimed to see any fanatical approach to sport in Finalnd. I hear plenty about it but experience….? Apart from the Neste Rally and the passionate fans there I really can’t think of too many local or international events that raise any passion on a sporting level.
Comment by Punter — Tue, Jun 19th, 2007 @ 11:37 pm
Actually Franky it’s over 14 years and at least in that time I would certainly not have claimed to see any fanatical approach to sport in Finalnd.
In 1993 Finns had other things on their minds than sports. Indeed, the remarkable transformation to the country it is now was already in full swing and in its most painful stage.
I was referring more to the 1980s and 1970s, actually. I don’t have first hand evidence of preceding decades, but it would seem that it was even worse, and lacking in the self-irony all too often found today - Eurovision Markku, anyone? Ennen oli laivat puuta ja miehet rautaa.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Tue, Jun 19th, 2007 @ 11:55 pm
Well, I suppose i’m on the minority, being a 24 years old finn who has never been drunk.
Comment by Maagi — Wed, Jun 20th, 2007 @ 6:53 am
#40- “Ambition and success is permitted in sports, which is probably why Finns are so fanatical about it.”
Are as in present tense against was which would be past??? If you want to troll around dragging up stuff and manipulating comments, get ready for it too.
Transformation? Most painful stage? Nah, that probably would have been 94-95. Funny though as a foreigner here managed to keep myself busy and in employment right through that time too, just never saw those fanatical sports fans
Comment by Punter — Wed, Jun 20th, 2007 @ 7:18 am
Punty:
Are as in present tense against was which would be past??? If you want to troll around dragging up stuff and manipulating comments, get ready for it too.
That was just about as intelligible as winnie’s posts. I wayve the French white flag of surrender (but you still owe me a case of Penfolds Grange).
Transformation? Most painful stage? Nah, that probably would have been 94-95.
Depends what you mean. The economy had been growing for a couple of years, but perhaps this period saw more foreclosures and such than the earlier years.
just never saw those fanatical sports fans
This might be a case of different definitions. Certainly people do not kill each other over sports, like in more civilised countries. Let’s just say that it evokes powerful emotions in Finland. Still does.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Wed, Jun 20th, 2007 @ 7:44 pm
Crap. Finns know nothing about sport. The stadiums are empty, tv coveraage is next to nothing, your success is less than nothing and all in all you are nothing in the world of sport.
If you can’t understand the difference between are and was then perhaps you should study a bit more than winty.
Finally, since when has killing and passion in sport been tied together? Like most things in Finland, powerful and silent seem to run hand in hand. Six figure man……….
Comment by Punter — Thu, Jun 21st, 2007 @ 12:04 am
Well, according to Phil’s account, at least everyone will be very quiet when you wake up with a hangover. I haven’t been to Finland (hope to visit soon), but I can attest to the “extreme sport” mentality around drinking on college campuses where I have worked: students drink with the goal of becoming as intoxicated as possible. Binge drinking now doesn’t even compare with what it was ten years ago. Students use funnels, go out to drink 21 shots for 21 years when they reach legal age, and a number of any other techniques to hit the highest level of toxicity attainable without dying. Many say that they don’t even like drinking or alcohol itself: the goal is to get beyond drunk, and into a totally altered narcotic state. From what I’m reading, that doesn’t seem to be the case with Finns. Not that one has to get that blasted to have an alcohol problem. Are there many of what one would call “functional alcoholics” in Finland ? People who “nip” during the day/on the job, in the fashion of the character Jane Tennyson on BBC’s “Prime Suspect ?”
Comment by Cordelia — Thu, Jun 21st, 2007 @ 5:58 am
Sorry, PS, should have added that the colleges I’m talking about are in the states.
Comment by Cordelia — Thu, Jun 21st, 2007 @ 5:59 am
Another reason for drinking is social pressure. If you don’t drink, you are out and no much opportunities for social life.
And also finnish social life goes much in bars, maybe because most of the year it is too cold outside. Rents are high here, so bar needs to collect lot of money in means of selling booze to pay the rent. Ever tried to go to bar and drink just some nonalcoholic drinks? See the peoples attitude towards you. Nondrinkers is bars are like bums who try to get benefits of bars without participating paying the expenses.
Comment by teppo — Thu, Jun 21st, 2007 @ 9:24 am
#59-I have found that strange too. Back in Melbourne, “light” or low alcohol beer makes up a massive percentage of beer sold in bars in an attempt to keep drinking and driving numbers low. It almost seems strange to order full strength beer there compared to light. Here, try asking for a number 1 beer (low alc) in a bar or an alcohol free cocktail. Almost impossible.
Comment by Punter — Thu, Jun 21st, 2007 @ 10:20 am
Cordelia: “Are there many of what one would call “functional alcoholics†in Finland ? People who “nip†during the day/on the job”
Good question. In my opinion, that’s not overly common in Finland. It was very common in eastern Europe during Socialist times, though.
These days people are adjusting to modern times and waiting ’till after work to get sloshed
Comment by Kristian — Thu, Jun 21st, 2007 @ 2:54 pm
“Nondrinkers is bars are like bums who try to get benefits of bars without participating paying the expenses.”
And they are some hefty expenses indeed. It’s common here to toss money out of one’s pockets to pay for some of the most overpriced drinks in Europe—6-euros here, 5-euros there…pretty soon it’s 50-euros for the night. A couple night-per-week. Thousands-of-euros per-year.
And salaries are very low in Finland.
Comment by Kristian — Thu, Jun 21st, 2007 @ 3:02 pm
It’s strange that in this blog usually full of insightful and well-informed entries something like the above is published! Well sure the Finns are shy, nervous, introverted, reserved, self-conscious, unassured and unsocial, but you forgot to mention suicidal, self - in fact, humanity - hating and usually trembling (unless performing surgery). Now, contrast this with any foreigner - self-assured, outgoing, and almost always as wise as an Australian - and you get the real picture of about the unhappiest nation on earth.
I’ll carry on with the self-loathing as soon as I have the courage to do so.
Comment by Anonymous — Sat, Jun 23rd, 2007 @ 12:49 pm
Finns are party animals but not as much as say the Russians. I rather get drunk with a Finn than with a Russian.
Comment by Clint — Tue, Jul 31st, 2007 @ 4:07 am
You know nothing about shyness. From my point of view, other Finns are super-social.
Comment by lahdc — Fri, Aug 24th, 2007 @ 2:38 pm
I found your intriguing article on my fellow countrymen and women while searching for bi-polarity on the Finnish health site hoping to find out if our drinking is causing the bipolarity or the other way round.
I was diagnosed bipolar when I was sixteen.I buried the information deep where it would not bother me and tried to get on with my life.After graduation from university,marriage and a child I began to experience a predominance of depressive as opposed to manic,moods.Drinking relieved the depression to an extent but on the long term aggravated it.After my second suicide attempt when my 12 year-old son founf me bleeding on the basement floor (so that I would not dirty the “clean” part of the house) I was put on lithium and two other medicines.I continued drinking because the home situation was very bad.The depressions continued with very little manic in them.Finally,a year and a half ago I stopped drinking cold turkey,changed my domicile.lost 50 pounds and began to explore myself.I think that my birth mother was bi=polar .This I gleaned from her veiled comments.She was ashamed to admit openly that she was afflicted with something which in her opinion bordered on insanity.People have almost always ended their relationship with me by saying–there is something about her which—-
A lot of Finns are normal but I suspect that probably an equal number of us are bi-polar.Many of the ones that drink themselves to stupor probably have a need to boost their self-esteem (The Matchstick Factory Girl movie by Kaurismaki (?)was an excellent one in focusing on how we abolish another person’s self -esteem).Many Finnish mothers are very adept at that.Guilt is another weapon not restricted to Jewish mothers.It has taken me 67 years of living to esteem myself.There are still times when I slip into the old abyss.Comment 66,right in front of me nowspeaks the truth.I think that Finns who have been intelligent enough to aquire a university education or equivalent have self-esteem and are therefore comfortable enough in their own skins to let the the socializing come through.They are no longer afraid of what other people will think of them.The boy with only public and trade school has serious doubts of his own social capacities.The educated ones can be very snarky also towards the lesser educated one.Alcohol,at least in its early stages gives courage to speak one’s mind,court the pretty girl and maybe even dance with her.
Comment by Tuula Kahilahti — Sun, Oct 7th, 2007 @ 6:26 am
The younger generation seems to consist of party animals.Each new generation gets further away from the mold of the traditionally typical Finn.The language gets corrupted by English words which is happening all over the world.I have lived in Canada for 55 years and have consciously attempted to keep my mother tongue pristine.With every trip to Finland there are more Finglish words being used in the most ridiculous fashion.Is this what our soldiers sacrificed their lives for?Have the Finns had enough of patriotism?Has it become passe?I look at the country of my birth from across the Atlantic and I do not see the picture which I carried away with me when I left Finland.I guess this is progress.
Comment by tuula kahilahti — Mon, Oct 8th, 2007 @ 1:14 am
I am a transplanted Laplander (those people who populated Finland from the North downward; DNA testing proves this). I think there might be a residual punch-drunk effect via the Russian and Swede domination for so long. Since Finland is actually a very young country nationally they may be in learning pains still. Also, see ‘Cantos 19–25′ from the Kalevala http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalevala for more clues.
Comment by Dan — Tue, Dec 25th, 2007 @ 7:29 pm
Fins don’t have a drinking problem, at least my friends don’t. Yes we do drink and party but that’s to be expected. We won’t be doing that when we’re 30.
Comment by how to pick up girls — Tue, Feb 26th, 2008 @ 10:18 am
I’m Irish, and your description of Finnish drinking habits sounds pretty much like a typical night out here. Our government is currently trying to come up with solutions to our binge-drinking culture (where that is defined as having three or more alcoholic drinks in one sitting). Amongst the majority of people I know, a binge would be defined as maybe three days drinking, missing work, etc. The attitude seems to be as long as you can make it to your job, you don’t get arrested, you manage to keep a relationship, well, sure what’s the harm in having a few?
In relation to how to pick up girl’s comment above, you stole my line, that’s what I always say to people who say I party too much!
Comment by Steorra — Sat, Jul 19th, 2008 @ 4:27 pm