All you do is talk, talk
@ 5:44 pm A line from one of my favorite ’80’s synthpop bands, appropriately named Talk Talk.
In my many years of living-in and traveling-through eastern Europe, one thing I noticed is that people who’d lived in Socialism don’t talk, talk. Language is used sparingly and in the most low-context form imaginable. That means, when people actually say something, it’s to-the-point, and you won’t need to consider ambiguities like what their raised eyebrow means—in relation to what they said, of course.
My Swedish family, who recently visited the US, remarked about the friendly and open demeanor of Americans. Conversations seemed to materialize during otherwise mundane activities like riding the escalator. They compared it with Sweden, where, according to them, people just stand around like sad horses—you know, with long faces.
Actually, all of my Finnish family members have visited the US, and they conclude the same. So maybe there’s some truth to it. But, having been raised in a Finnish family, I find the efficient, Finnish form of non-communication very familiar and easy to interpret; I even find it comforting. But, according to some researchers, there’s a downside…
The workplace is probably the only place where talk isn’t cheap. A study at the University of Jyväskylä suggests that talkative, outgoing people capable of taking initiative get paid more than those who are considered quiet or shy.
This all makes me wonder: The author of the study discusses individuals in the workplace. But do you think there’s a correlation between the amount of talkativeness and outgoingness in society and salaries in the general economy? But even more fundamentally, do you think there’s a correlation between the amount of talkativeness/outgoingness and the economic system of a country?
“Conversations [in America] seemed to materialize during otherwise mundane activities like riding the escalator.”
Perhaps on the Escalator of Life?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzHS02efEKk
Sorry, another shameless ’80’s quip. I couldn’t resist
Comment by Kristian — Fri, Jun 15th, 2007 @ 5:47 pm
Paavo Väyrynen have new talkshow (Me, Myself and I) Paavo is my hero
http://viihde.mtv3.fi/uutiset/televisio.shtml/536167?me,_myself__i
Comment by katas — Fri, Jun 15th, 2007 @ 6:08 pm
Kristian, when you mmake a post, must you also go and make the first comment to it?
Comment by pi — Fri, Jun 15th, 2007 @ 6:21 pm
But do you think there’s a correlation between the amount of talkativeness and outgoingness in society and salaries in the general economy? But even more fundamentally, do you think there’s a correlation between the amount of talkativeness/outgoingness and the economic system of a country?
no & no.
Comment by pi — Fri, Jun 15th, 2007 @ 6:24 pm
But even more fundamentally, do you think there’s a correlation between the amount of talkativeness/outgoingness and the economic system of a country?
http://www.weforum.org/en/initiatives/gcp/Global%20Competitiveness%20Report/index.htm
Now all you need is some statistics about talkativeness.
Comment by Anonymous — Fri, Jun 15th, 2007 @ 6:27 pm
Here’s the business competitiveness index.
http://www.weforum.org/pdf/Global_Competitiveness_Reports/Reports/gcr_2006/BCI.pdf
Comment by Anonymous — Fri, Jun 15th, 2007 @ 6:30 pm
#5 Anyone can be a researcher in a quiet room. Or a fastidious worker. It all adds-up to “competitiveness.” But who actually funds all that Finnish “competitiveness?” Most of Finnish industry is owned by savy (and perhaps outgoing) foreigner investors.
And why are salaries so low in Finland?
http://www.taloussanomat.fi/tyo-ja-ura/2007/04/26/Koulutetut+ovat+k%F6yhi%E4+Suomessa/20079999/106
http://www.finlandforthought.net/2007/04/28/ostovoima-low-purchasing-power-for-highly-educated-in-finland/
Comment by Kristian — Fri, Jun 15th, 2007 @ 6:36 pm
And not surprisingly, Finnish industry is owned precisely by sharehelders in those in “outgoing” and “talkative” lands—like the USA. Even Switzerland and Germany for that matter.
http://www.finlandforthought.net/2006/12/07/finlands-net-worth-per-capita-lowest-in-old-eu-by-alot/
Comment by Kristian — Fri, Jun 15th, 2007 @ 6:45 pm
#3 “Kristian, when you mmake a post, must you also go and make the first comment to it?”
It’s his narcissistic personality disorder
Comment by Anonymous — Fri, Jun 15th, 2007 @ 6:45 pm
Ahhhh, the same chorus of commies going to tell about greatness of welfare state shithole. Nothing new here.
Comment by Anonymous — Fri, Jun 15th, 2007 @ 7:51 pm
But even more fundamentally, do you think there’s a correlation between the amount of talkativeness/outgoingness and the economic system of a country?
HAH HAH HAH!!! Oh my fucking lord.
Kristian, this was your best post ever.
Comment by Anonymous — Fri, Jun 15th, 2007 @ 8:03 pm
I think there is a clear correlation between talkativeness and type of economy all stemming from the fact that in Socialist States (read modern Nanny States) we’re not allowed to think freely and certainy not encouraged to ask questions at school. Authority is all powering and to be followed not questioned and that my friend is the end of the conversation.
Just like the attitude behind the typical “here is a survey that shows this…….” Finn response to a question. Don’t think and question things, just believe the first “fact” you’re told because it has been written and so it’s correct.
Comment by Punter — Fri, Jun 15th, 2007 @ 8:07 pm
Sorry, #11 was me.
But as an answer to your question: there might well be. Cubans have no market economy because they laugh and dance so much.
I’ll start printing t-shirts with a text “I heard it from Kristian.”
Comment by Aapo — Fri, Jun 15th, 2007 @ 8:11 pm
In the working world it seems there are talkers and doers. Talkers talk and don’t get anything done. Doers get stuff done, but don’t talk. To do well you have to be both.
I think the public schools here in the US are crap compared to Finland. But one thing they do well is teaching kids how to communicate. I think “communicate” may be a better word to use instead of “talk” in this topic.
Comment by maaksalaatikko — Fri, Jun 15th, 2007 @ 8:18 pm
Kristian, I think there is a positive correlation. Any business activity can be described as some kind of exchange, and usually people are more able to exchange goods, ideas or money if they are geared to communicate in general.
But I’m sure there are several qualitative qualifiers to this: for example if a country/organization is undergoing a major change, people probebly need to communicate a lot more in order to achieve the same amount of productive exchanges than they would have to in a steady state. And if the country/organization has built-up needs for change, but no change is imminent, peole may be vary of their
Comment by Mara — Fri, Jun 15th, 2007 @ 8:22 pm
…words.
Comment by Mara — Fri, Jun 15th, 2007 @ 8:24 pm
In socialist life talk is not necessary. Only when drunk like Cuban and Finn.
Comment by Anonymous — Sat, Jun 16th, 2007 @ 12:31 am
Economic freedom index:
http://www.heritage.org/research/features/index/countries.cfm
Finland @ 16, Cuba @ 156
Comment by Anonymous — Sat, Jun 16th, 2007 @ 2:09 am
The Finnish real salaries have risen only by 27% since 2000. In Germany they have gone up by at least trilllion million percents - and in Switzerland by trilllliiioonn milliioon trilliiiooon!
Finland’s economy grew last year only by 5.5%. Hah! What’s that compared to USA’s zillion point six percents (or was it somewhat below 3%, can’t remember right now). Even the less talkative Germans have been able to generate amazing growth rates - compared to silly poor Finns - exceeding occasionally even one percent.
And yes indeed, Finland’s economy is owned by never-stop-talking foreigners unlike that of the model countries like Albania. There they really know how to come up with things that nobobby is interested in.
Comment by Anonymous — Sat, Jun 16th, 2007 @ 11:11 am
And kebabs are expensive, too.
Comment by Anonymous — Sat, Jun 16th, 2007 @ 11:21 am
Ireland and Finland tend to be the two top performers economically. The Irish, like Conan O’Brian, are much more talkative, no doubt. But what’s common between the two countries is binge drinking. And expensive kebabs. Perhaps that’s the recipe. Want to get rich? Get drunk and have a kebab!
Comment by Anonymous — Sat, Jun 16th, 2007 @ 11:44 am
I think it’s silly to infer correlation from two data points. Why is Northern Europe where people tend to be less talkative than in Southern Europe the wealthier one? What about the third world compared to the first world? Why are the quiet Japanese wealthier the talkative Spanish?
But check this out: The Smart Fraction Theory II: Why Asians Lag
http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/sft2.htm
Basically the author analyses national IQ data and finds that given equal overall IQ, verbal skills are more valuable than non-verbal skills (spatial etc.) economically.
Comment by Markku — Sat, Jun 16th, 2007 @ 12:17 pm
I think it’s all relative. - to the culture you’re in. For example just yesterday I had an unpleasant encounter with a newspaper seller in a mall. He was too talkative, too in my face and far too close (invaded my space). An instant NO to everything he was selling. Perhaps he would have had better luck in an american mall??
I’m sure any sucessfull businessman/woman will tell you that good “people skills” are what make the difference. And IMHO it is not talkativeness that defines those skills, but the ability to “read” people and the situation and to act accordingly.
It certainly pays (pun intended) to be outgoing, to take the initiative, to talk, to make contact with people in the workplace - even in Finland. Simply because none of us can read minds, and if you won’t talk about your great idea nobody will ever hear of it. But as always, too much of a good thing…
Comment by tirlittan — Sat, Jun 16th, 2007 @ 1:05 pm
“In socialist life talk is not necessary. Only when drunk like Cuban and Finn.”
Yes, and I suppose anyone can be communicative after drinking a few
Cuba probably has a more capitalist system than we would expect. The Socialist system can’t meet demand, so the black market is reputedly huge. That requires barter and yes, also interpersonal communication; I suspect even more than is required in the western world. Eastern Europe had a structure that was similar to Cuba. I’ve discussed it many times with my eastern European colleagues.
Although lots of interpersonal communication is/was required, the style of communication under such a system is different than anything we know in the modern world.
For example, you might chat-up the waiter for the purpose of facilitating a barter arrangement: You get a reservation at the restaurant, and he gets a few buckets of tar to fix his roof (assuming you have contacts in the building trades). Much of the economy operates/operated that way.
But any communication beyond what’s necessary to secure the deal is superfluous.
Thankfully, although it came close, Finland never sunk to the Socialist depths of its eastern European cousins. So, such barter practices weren’t necessary in Finland—at least not during the last decades.
Likewise, in much of western Europe, and the US in particular, there was also no need to barter for basic goods. And chatting someone up could be done without considering personal gain.
However, the difference between Finland and western Europe/US is that the latter have always had thriving business cultures, whereas Finland has been relatively Socialist during the past 50+ years. In Finland, talking wasn’t necessary—neither for business nor for black market barter.
In my opinion, it’s gotten much better; Finland probably couldn’t recognize its old self from 13-years-ago…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhxZoV3t61c
But it’s still a very low-context society. That’s good in some respects, because I really don’t like looking at every stranger in the eye when walking on the sidewalk (like in the US). But it’s bad when you consider what causes it: No self-supporting domestic economy.
Comment by Kristian — Sat, Jun 16th, 2007 @ 2:33 pm
Kristian - I think it (the economy) has less to do with talking than about educating kids/people from the beginning to have expectations and dreams. It just seems like the schools in Finland teach kids to lower their expectations to a day job for The State/Man, small house and a summer holiday every year….in the US it’s everything and anything you can dream of until you become too jaded and then lower your expectations.
Also, people who don’t talk are considered hostile or possible serial killers.
Comment by hfb — Sat, Jun 16th, 2007 @ 4:24 pm
Kristian, I love you. Please accept this earthly plug as a virtual wedding ring.
Comment by Aapo — Sat, Jun 16th, 2007 @ 4:53 pm
people who don’t talk are considered … possible serial killers.
Just wait and see, soon Mrs hbf’s failure to adept will turn every Finn a serial killer. (By the way, there hasn’t been a single serial killer in Finland since the 19th century - well, nobody caught by the police but then again murder cases are almost all solved in this crappy shithole.:)
:)
Comment by Anonymous — Sat, Jun 16th, 2007 @ 5:04 pm
I think more than economy, the demographic is an issue in the rate of general talkativeness. In a crowded environment you have to interact with other people, even strangers, to feel safer. On the surface people are friendly and talkative, but within they’re assessing risk; same applies to business environment. In sparsely populated areas (like Helsinki), fleeing the potential risk by not making any contact with strangers still works, because within you can still trust strangers not attacking you, even if there is no humanizing contact between you.
Comment by Frog — Sat, Jun 16th, 2007 @ 5:34 pm
“Market economy requires an outgoing, sanguine mindset and apparently we don’t have enough of that; the silent and shy are doomed to live in socialism.”
Aapo, it’s the other way around: Socialism dooms a person to live in silence and shyness—and perhaps low-achieving conformity, too. I guess I need to spell things out clearer, so that even you understand it?
Comment by Kristian — Sat, Jun 16th, 2007 @ 5:39 pm
Aapo, it’s the other way around: Socialism dooms a person to live in silence and shynessâ€â€and perhaps low-achieving conformity, too.
Way to go, Krisse. That way it makes even less sense.
My gut feeling is that the Cubans talk more than the Hongkong Chinese - or, in other words, that the Hongkong Chinese have a context-richer way to communicate than the Cubans. The Cubans live in Cuba, a socialist country; the Hongkong Chinese in Hongkong, the most capitalist place on Earth. How amazing.
It must be said that you have an astonishingly original way to draw conclusions and explain societies - if there’s the word “correlation” in your post, then one can get prepared for basically anything.
And then this brainchild is just cute:
But do you think there’s a correlation between the amount of talkativeness and outgoingness in society and salaries in the general economy?
Jesus H Christ. I’d love to see an economic model of that.
Comment by Aapo — Sat, Jun 16th, 2007 @ 7:21 pm
“It just seems like the schools in Finland teach kids to lower their expectations to a day job for The State/Man, small house and a summer holiday every year….in the US it’s everything and anything you can dream of until you become too jaded and then lower your expectations.”
So tell me why average American kids are dumb shits when compared to any other 1st world nation kids?
Comment by tim73 — Sat, Jun 16th, 2007 @ 9:57 pm
So tell me why average American kids are dumb shits when compared to any other 1st world nation kids?
Don’t be too hard on her, she’s a product of the that schooling system herself. Idiocy in her case is forgivable, I suppose.
Comment by Anonymous — Sat, Jun 16th, 2007 @ 10:33 pm
hfb:
It just seems like the schools in Finland teach kids to lower their expectations to a day job for The State/Man, small house and a summer holiday every year…
At least they teach something, instead of acting as a kindergarten/part-time prison that enables the worker-consumer parents to keep the economic machine grinding on. Oh well.
An entertaining article about American high schools
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Sun, Jun 17th, 2007 @ 12:25 am
Um, lest this become yet another tired US-Finland slagfest, let me clarify my point a little.
It is true that the Finnish school system, as opposed to the American one, might prepare people to settle for less. Smart kids in America quite quickly figure out that school is relatively pointless and focus their energy on extracurricular pursuits, whereas in Finland, where the system is designed as to ensure that the average person has a clue but offers enough of a challenge for the above-average as well might fool them into thinking that doing well at school is all there is to it. Then they go on to be happy, underpaid white collar slaves.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Sun, Jun 17th, 2007 @ 3:41 am
“So tell me why average American kids are dumb shits when compared to any other 1st world nation kids?”
Timmy, Timmy, Timmy, Tsk Tsk. This is true only after high school. After all most kids do go to high school here, unlike Finland where the dumb ones are marginalized after ninth grade.
After college American kids blow everyone else away.
Comment by maaksalaatikko — Sun, Jun 17th, 2007 @ 12:41 pm
After college American kids blow everyone else away.
In Iraq.
Comment by Anonymous — Sun, Jun 17th, 2007 @ 1:12 pm
After college American kids blow everyone else away.
Sometimes they do that already in high school.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Sun, Jun 17th, 2007 @ 2:41 pm
Freeridin’ - Ok, let’s assume that everyone in America is as dumb as a brick like what you see on Jay Leno’s “Jaywalking” thing and everyone in Finland is a shining example of teaching children how to memorize their textbooks and be terrified of making mistakes even into adulthood ( I swear I will break my husband of that as he has trouble singing his own child to sleep with the reasoning that he’s ‘not that good’… ). Based on that assumption, why isn’t Finland on the map?
Don’t get me wrong, there are a lot of truly stupid people in the US, the kind that an education won’t fix….but the US does have a lot of bright ones, too, and here they can, and are encouraged to, dare to dream of doing something truly great or simply lucrative. In Finland, what does smart get you? A handshake and 40 euros like that dude who invented the SMS? I’d probably settle for a case of Karhu and a month by the lake, too, with a system like that.
Comment by hfb — Sun, Jun 17th, 2007 @ 3:14 pm
Freeridin’ - Ok, let’s assume that everyone in America is as dumb as a brick like what you see on Jay Leno’s “Jaywalkingâ€Â
That was absolutely not what I meant.
I swear I will break my husband of that as he has trouble singing his own child to sleep with the reasoning that he’s ‘not that good’…
You know, especially in this day and age, having a little self-criticism isn’t such a bad trait. Having inherited some ear for music from my father’s side, I’m still haunted by memories of my mother’s off-key singing.
Based on that assumption, why isn’t Finland on the map?
I already answered that in part. Finland’s school system excels in ensuring that the average person has a clue, but doesn’t utilise the talents of the best and brightest in full. There also seems to be a culture, independent of any “welfare state”, that discourages being better than others in anything but track&field, hockey and F1.
In Finland, what does smart get you? A handshake and 40 euros like that dude who invented the SMS? I’d probably settle for a case of Karhu and a month by the lake, too, with a system like that.
No argument there. Although with Nokia wages, the lakeshore cottage will have to be inherited, rented or borrowed.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Sun, Jun 17th, 2007 @ 6:47 pm
Freeridin’ - C’mon, I don’t think an infant is going to be scarred for life by her father quietly singing a lullaby before bed.
“There also seems to be a culture, independent of any “welfare stateâ€Â, that discourages being better than others in anything but track&field, hockey and F1.”
Indeed. It goes further than just that in many ways but, yes, this is the essence of what I was getting at.
Comment by hfb — Mon, Jun 18th, 2007 @ 6:47 am
#35
The american High school is a joke. Lukio and High school aren’t in anyway comparable.
Comment by Anonymous — Tue, Jun 19th, 2007 @ 1:58 pm
ALL kids go to high school in America. SOME kids go to lukio in Finland. The others are marginalized at a young age and quite dumb.
I once sat in a room full of construction workers at break time in Helsinki. The debate was about which party Urho Kekkonen was a member of. Most of them were saying the Social Democrats. Complete morons, (but very likable).
Average and above average people in Finland stop talking to the dumb ones after ninth grade. Ten years later they think everyone in Finland is brilliant because they have forgotten all about the dumb people they haven’t talked to since their middle teens.
Comment by maaksalaatikko — Thu, Jun 21st, 2007 @ 6:38 am
“ALL kids go to high school in America”
So what.
“SOME kids go to lukio in Finland.”
Did you know that the Finnish lukio is comparable to the first years of American college. You know, the place where americans start learning the basic things that are already teached at Lukio in Finland.
How many kids go to college and don’t drop out, like the majority of American college students do in USA.
“The others are marginalized at a young age and quite dumb.”
Who are you to categorize people going to vocational schools. Some amikset actually need a better graduate diploma than in Lukio to get in.
Besides I don’t think they care about people thinking they’re dumb as they most likely have a better paying job than the guy with the academic education.
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do not fully understand.
“This all makes me wonder: The author of the study discusses individuals in the workplace. But do you think there’s a correlation between the amount of talkativeness and outgoingness in society and salaries in the general economy? But even more fundamentally, do you think there’s a correlation between the amount of talkativeness/outgoingness and the economic system of a country?”
I like how you explained that. Very helpful. Thanks.
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