Foreigners, ecstasy, and the Left Alliance
Am I just being paranoid here, or does it seem that the Finnish press just love to make a bigger deal out of arrests of Estonians and Russians? Reading between the lines, I see, “It’s not the Finns causing trouble in Finland, it’s those pesky foreigners…”
Police in Helsinki have uncovered a record number of ecstasy tablets. In April, police confiscated over 30,000 tablets from an Estonian man living in Finland. The drugs, which were hidden around Helsinki and Turku, are valued at about 450,000 euros.
The suspect, who was previously convicted of committing violent crimes, was in taken into custody in April. Police suspect that he has been a key figure in distributing the drug. His detention is expected to affect the entire ecstasy market in Finland. Preliminary investigations are still underway.
…yeah, it’ll affect the entire market for a week or two. If he’s got 30,000 pills, he’s not dealing them one-by-one, he’s a distributer, and higher up there on the food chain. A lot of smaller dealers depend on him, and will quickly find another source. And if you think there’s only one guy supplying the entire nation with ecstasy, you’re clearly mistaken. It’s like saying that if Nokia disappears, it’ll affect the entire mobile phone market in Finland - sure for a while it will, but people need mobile phones, and will quickly move on to another competitor.
The point is that you’ll never slow down the flow of drugs by arresting dealers, there’s always a hundred other guys waiting to take his place. Most likely one of his trust, smaller-time dealers will take his spot. Even if the authorities were successful at removing one type of drug, users would just move on to another. I think Finland’s Left Alliance Youth has the right idea…
The youth organisation of the opposition Left Alliance Party, the Left Youth of Finland, has narrowly passed a resolution calling for the legalisation of the use and home cultivation of cannabis. The decision came at a convention of the organisation this past weekend.
You’re just being paranoid. The amount of drugs was so large that the arrest would have been reported no matter the nationality of the suspect. Also, the Left Alliance doesn’t support legalizing cannabis, never mind ecstasy.
Comment by a lamb with no guiding light — Wed, May 30th, 2007 @ 2:33 pm
That the youth organisation of a major political party would suggest something like that without being crucified is certainly a stride forward.
Back in the early 90s, when SKY distributed copies of their magazine to the MPs, a certain representative of the predecessor of True Finns submitted an interpellation. Kekkonen probably turned in his grave as well.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Wed, May 30th, 2007 @ 3:11 pm
Also, the Left Alliance doesn’t support legalizing cannabis, never mind ecstasy.
Ooops, forgot to add “Youth” in there.
Comment by Phil — Wed, May 30th, 2007 @ 3:13 pm
Phil: “I think Finland’s Left Alliance Youth has the right idea…”
Hard to believe it only passed narrowly. Of all the kooky stuff the far left promotes, this is actually something beneficial. Surprised they didn’t take this position sooner.
And welcome back
Comment by Kristian — Wed, May 30th, 2007 @ 3:20 pm
Hard to believe it only passed narrowly.
I guess after the way the press, the politicians, and the people blasted Rosa Merilainen - none of the Left Youth would want to ruin their political careers at such an early age.
I actually think the Finns are quite liberal about marijuana, but everyone is afraid to admit it until others do. It’s like crossing the street at a red light even when there’s no cars around, no one will do it, until just one person does then everyone else follows.
Comment by Phil — Wed, May 30th, 2007 @ 3:41 pm
I don’t think it is wise to promote the home use of cannabis. People should be free to take all drugs so long as they don’t get themselves addicted and so long as they are not a danger to others. The only way to ensure that is to regulate drug usage by having certain places where people can get and take drugs but make it illegal outside those places. People doing drugs at home is a bad idea though - there’s a time and a place for these things.
Comment by Jon — Wed, May 30th, 2007 @ 3:50 pm
Phil, you are certainly looking the world through glasses of different color than I am, because I think Finnish media is very PC and usually hides ethnic origin if the news are negative, especially if the origin is in Middle East or Africa and the religion is islam.
In this case, truth is that most drugs come to Finland from the east and this illegal business has strong ties to Russian mob. Also Finnish motorcycle gangs are often mentioned in news like this.
It is true that for every arrested dealer or smuggler there are dozens of new volunteers to take their place. In this business it is easy to gain a lot of wealth in short time but also easy to lose your life and risk the lives of your beloved ones. Some people think it’s worth to try.
And some people are willing to get drunk with every possible substance with strong influence to brain activity and central nervous system. If cannabis would be legal, it would not be enough for all. If there were no drugs, they would take mushrooms. If there were no mushrooms, they would take something else. What are they escaping from? Society? Evil world? Bad feeling? Themselves? When you legalize cannabis, next thing they start to demand is opium. And legalizing would lure thousands of new people to try cannabis.
We already have legal alcohol and it causes a lot of problems. Cannabis is not problem-free and I think we don’t need any extra intoxicants. It should stay banned.
Comment by Timo L. — Wed, May 30th, 2007 @ 3:54 pm
We already have legal alcohol and it causes a lot of problems. Cannabis is not problem-free and I think we don’t need any extra intoxicants. It should stay banned.
This is a common misconception. We’re not talking about introducing hitherto unknown psychoactive substances. Cannabis is already widely used. The issue here is reducing its detrimental effects to society. I agree that a massive increase in use would not be desirable and also that legalisation or decriminalisation would probably increase use somewhat.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Wed, May 30th, 2007 @ 4:00 pm
I don’t think it is wise to promote the home use of cannabis.
Well I don’t think the state would “promote” it. Just instead, not tear down people’s front doors and send them off to jail if they have a few plants.
People should be free to take all drugs so long as they don’t get themselves addicted and so long as they are not a danger to others.
I completely agree that they should not be a danger to others. (with or without drugs)
The only way to ensure that is to regulate drug usage by having certain places where people can get and take drugs but make it illegal outside those places.
Would that really work though? Sounds like a real buzz kill to go down to some state-run opium den and sign papers then when you’re down off your high, have some nurse give you some pamphlets about the evil dangers of drug use. I think the state-run opium den would result in a lot of people fighting over the CD-player.
People doing drugs at home is a bad idea though - there’s a time and a place for these things.
You’d rather them be out in the streets doing drugs or other public places?
Comment by Phil — Wed, May 30th, 2007 @ 4:16 pm
Phil, you are certainly looking the world through glasses of different color than I am, because I think Finnish media is very PC and usually hides ethnic origin if the news are negative, especially if the origin is in Middle East or Africa and the religion is islam.
Estonians and Russians seem to get “special” treatment from the press and everyone else. They’re very PC about Middle Easterners and Africans, but the Estonians and Russians are exempt from this.
In this business it is easy to gain a lot of wealth in short time but also easy to lose your life and risk the lives of your beloved ones.
Only because it’s illegal. If it were legal, Russian mobs, motorcycle gangs and other punks would have to find a real job.
When you legalize cannabis, next thing they start to demand is opium.
You can’t categorize “drugs” altogether like that. Just because I drink, doesn’t mean I smoke cigarettes. Just because I smoke cigarettes, doesn’t mean I smoke pot. etc…
And legalizing would lure thousands of new people to try cannabis.
That’s EXACTLY what the conservative christians have been saying in the states for decades. “If we give them condoms, they’ll have more sex!”
Comment by Phil — Wed, May 30th, 2007 @ 4:22 pm
Yes you are being paranoid!
Comment by 23mm — Wed, May 30th, 2007 @ 4:24 pm
Jon: “People doing drugs at home is a bad idea though - there’s a time and a place for these things.”
Good point. I used to smoke weed on Suomenlinna all the time. Much better than sitting around at home.
Comment by Kristian — Wed, May 30th, 2007 @ 4:31 pm
That’s Sveaborg in case JG is reading
Comment by Kristian — Wed, May 30th, 2007 @ 4:33 pm
Good point. I used to smoke weed on Suomenlinna all the time. Much better than sitting around at home.
I’ve seen lots of drunk, annoying people at Suomenlinna and other public parks. I’ve never seen any stoned, annoying people at these places though. Oh wait, I probably have seen stoned people, lots of them in fact - I just didn’t know it cause they were minding their own business, enjoying the outdoors, and not being annoying.
Comment by Phil — Wed, May 30th, 2007 @ 4:45 pm
#14 And they don’t smell like urine when they’re on the bus.
Comment by Kristian — Wed, May 30th, 2007 @ 4:47 pm
The EU’s 3rd report on the on-going extreme racism that exists in mainstream Finnish society points out specifically that Finnish media makes a great play on nationality when reporting crime, even if the foreign suspect has not been proven guilty.
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, May 30th, 2007 @ 8:31 pm
I think it’s quite common that immigrants commit more crimes than the average citizen - according to a resent report in Sweden Chileans and Arabs from the Morocco-Algeria region are almost 400% more likely to commit a violent crime than the average citizen.
Comment by Mikael — Wed, May 30th, 2007 @ 9:46 pm
Btw - I really like Estonians - I think that most Estonians are hardworking and honest so if some professional criminals come here and commit crimes, then it’s not the whole Estonian population’s fault.
Comment by Mikael — Wed, May 30th, 2007 @ 9:48 pm
#0 “In April, police confiscated over 30,000 tablets … yeah, it’ll affect the entire market for a week or two…. The point is that you’ll never slow down the flow of drugs by arresting dealers, there’s always a hundred other guys waiting to take his place.”
Are you suggesting that there is no need for the police to confiscate drug dealers or arrest other criminals? If you arrest a murderer, a rapist or whatever there will always be hundreds of other guys to do the same job.
#10 “Only because it’s illegal. If it were legal, Russian mobs, motorcycle gangs and other punks would have to find a real job.”
Do you really think so? No Russian mob, no Camorra, no ‘Ndrangheta and no organised crime if drugs were free. Let’s free drugs to get rid of organised crime. Phil, will are a genious!
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, May 30th, 2007 @ 10:39 pm
“Do you really think so? No Russian mob, no Camorra, no ‘Ndrangheta and no organised crime if drugs were free.”
Organized crime thrives on the illegality of drugs. Making substances free takes away the profit motive on the distribution side.
But they can still steal cars.
Comment by Kristian — Wed, May 30th, 2007 @ 10:57 pm
Anon:
Are you suggesting that there is no need for the police to confiscate drug dealers or arrest other criminals? If you arrest a murderer, a rapist or whatever there will always be hundreds of other guys to do the same job.
I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming you’re not yet another two bit troller. It is somewhat different. There is a demand for currently illegal drugs that is not going away, whereas there is little demand for rape and murder - many people want to buy illegal drugs but few people want to get raped or murdered.
Let’s free drugs to get rid of organised crime.
Organised crime would not disappear but their economic power would be greatly reduced.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Thu, May 31st, 2007 @ 12:39 am
The EU’s 3rd report on the on-going extreme racism that exists in mainstream Finnish society points out specifically that Finnish media makes a great play on nationality when reporting crime, even if the foreign suspect has not been proven guilty.
Link?
Comment by Phil — Thu, May 31st, 2007 @ 9:32 am
Are you suggesting that there is no need for the police to confiscate drug dealers or arrest other criminals? If you arrest a murderer, a rapist or whatever there will always be hundreds of other guys to do the same job.
Not at all! Murder and rape don’t follow the laws of supply and demand like drug dealing.
Do you really think so? No Russian mob, no Camorra, no ‘Ndrangheta and no organised crime if drugs were free. Let’s free drugs to get rid of organised crime. Phil, will are a genious!
Heh yeah, they’d probably switch to bootlegging or selling cigarettes or something.
Comment by Phil — Thu, May 31st, 2007 @ 9:34 am
You know what they say, if there’s an ecstasy ring in Finland that involves five Finns and one Estonian, it’s an Estonian drug ring.
In other news, several Finns were recently barred from entering Estonia because they like to throw little Nazi parties with the local inhabitants.
http://www.postimees.ee/220507/esileht/siseuudised/262006.php
#18. You are right about Estonia. I don’t understand why some Swedes and Finns continue to view Estonia with suspicion. I mean they fly to Thailand, home of regular military coups, for vacation, but Estonia? Estland? Viro?
I am not sure if they view it that way because they see it as an extension of their country, and so a “less savory” neighborhood, or because they are very slow and still are thinking in a 1970s frame of mind.
Comment by giustino — Thu, May 31st, 2007 @ 9:56 am
That’s crap. Also two Finnish guys were mentioned. And I don’t care whether it’s Finns or Estonian, or if someone else will be taking their place. I’m just glad the police busts these guys instead playing hide and seek in katajanokka. If you’re dealing 30k+ pills, no matter of your nationality, you deserve jail time.
Comment by Keksi — Thu, May 31st, 2007 @ 10:37 am
“Heh yeah, they’d probably switch to bootlegging or selling cigarettes or something.”
They already have done that “Cosa Nostra infiltrating the business world, the ‘Ndrangheta in prostitution, the Camorra in arms trafficking, extortion and loan sharking, and the Sacra Corona Unita in illegal immigrant and cigarette trafficking”. I am not sure about Russian specialities, maybe selling girls for sex slaves. Phishing is also done by mob, product forgery etc.
Surely the solution can not be that all of the above actions are legal. There is demand for all these actions. Why handle drugs differently?
Comment by Anonymous — Thu, May 31st, 2007 @ 10:56 am
#26 “There is demand for all these actions. Why handle drugs differently?”
No, there is NOT demand for all these actions; only some of them.
Regardless, all those things involve crimes against another person or entity—e.g. stealing, kidnapping, slavery, human trafficking, trespassing, murder, etc. The affected person has no choice.
Don’t you see the difference?
Comment by Kristian — Thu, May 31st, 2007 @ 2:24 pm
“Regardless, all those things involve crimes against another person or entityâ€â€e.g. stealing, kidnapping, slavery, human trafficking, trespassing, murder, etc. The affected person has no choice.”
And the drug addict has a choice? Surely a heroin addict can simply quit using. It is as simple as that. Actually, I believe that these people do not have much of a choice. No matter who sells the drugs to them, mobs or government, selling is making use of them.
“Don’t you see the difference?”
No, I don’t
Comment by Anonymous — Thu, May 31st, 2007 @ 3:48 pm
‘Don’t you see the difference?’
No, I don’t”
That’s too bad, because as you correctly stated, the drug addict will use drugs regardless of the source. Allowing the mob to profit from supply only adds a dimension of crime—violence, murder, etc.
One might also argue that, due to mob involvement, the drug itself will be less pure and potentially cause even greater health consequences to the consumer.
Comment by Kristian — Thu, May 31st, 2007 @ 4:06 pm
Stealing, kidnapping, slavery, human trafficking, illegal immigrant, cigarette trafficking, product forgery, sex etc you name it
There is demand for all of them. If there were not, who would bother e.g. to steal or sell (stolen property) or product forgeries? On the other hand, some of the actions might be legal if the action itself would be done legally (arms or cigarrette selling or even protitution). The profit comes from avoiding taxes and other expencies.
It’s too bad that you cannot see the similarity
Comment by Anonymous — Thu, May 31st, 2007 @ 5:12 pm
Ok, fine. If you say there is demand for forged or stolen products or black market cigarettes,etc., then I’ll agree.
But these involve stealing something from a person or entity—possibly with force. I don’t think anyone here condones theft or violence against anyone. Nor is there a call for legalizing theft or violence.
But you can’t group a person’s choice to use drugs with those activities listed above. It’s not the same. If anything, making drugs illegal leads to even more of those negative activities.
Comment by Kristian — Thu, May 31st, 2007 @ 5:31 pm
By the way, just look at the US prison system. I think that most are there related to some drug crime—either for taking, selling or committing a related act of violence or theft to acquire drugs at their artificially high prices. What a waste of resources to chase-after and keep these people in jail. Not to mention moral considerations.
Comment by Kristian — Thu, May 31st, 2007 @ 5:45 pm
Kristian:
What a waste of resources to chase-after and keep these people in jail. Not to mention moral considerations.
A large underclass might be an inevitable consequence of the capital-intensive economy that you so greatly cherish. Keeping a significant portion of the population locked up is certainly one solution to maintaining a semblance of the rule of law.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Thu, May 31st, 2007 @ 7:04 pm
#31 Organised crime will always find its way of making illegal money, no matter if the drugs are legalized or not. If, on the other hand, a society enact laws only aiming to reduce the profit of organised crime and it forgets the well being of the members of the society, the route is dangerous and endless. Cigarettes can be sold freely in each European country, prostitution is legal in some. However organised crime still have found its way to profit on these actions.
Even if drugs would be legalised and could be sold freely, organised crime would still sell it on black markets (surely you are not suggesting that all drugs should be available free of charge 24/7 for everyone). In my opinion the situation would be worse than it is now.
Comment by Anonymous — Thu, May 31st, 2007 @ 7:45 pm
€15’s an E lol. Only in Finland.
Comment by Anonymous — Thu, May 31st, 2007 @ 9:30 pm
€15’s an E lol. Only in Finland.
As with public transport?
http://paranoia.lycaeum.org/price.report/
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Thu, May 31st, 2007 @ 10:17 pm
“surely you are not suggesting that all drugs should be available free of charge 24/7 for everyone”
I would say that market forces would push prices down far enough so that they’d be almost free. That’s good, because at least then addicts could still afford to eat, and they might not be as tempted to steal from you to fuel their habit.
“Cigarettes can be sold freely in each European country, prostitution is legal in some. However organised crime still have found its way to profit on these actions.”
Cigarettes are NOT sold freely: they are taxed heavily. That’s why the mob is involved; it can undercut the tax and make a huge profit.
And sure, the mob is somewhat involved in prostitution. But even in that case, the mob capitalizes on its unique ability to circumvent existing legal structures. If those structures didn’t exist, then neither would the mob.
Comment by Kristian — Thu, May 31st, 2007 @ 11:00 pm
Funny, this has to be one of those few things I agree about with both Kristian and Phil (though I seem to agree with Phil slightly more often), but I think drugs should be legalized. Especially “soft drugs”. No point in WASTING money on fighting them. Especially since that saved (from unnecessary drug surveillance) money could be used to counter-act any hardships. And furthermore, since lower drug-prices would naturally reduce crime levels overall. And ESPECIALLY, the mobsters wouldn’t really have any business here after that.
Comment by Thomas — Sat, Jun 2nd, 2007 @ 3:17 am