Finns choosing overpriced cars over sparse public transit
@ 7:06 am According to a recent study, families who live on the outskirts of cities are choosing to own two- even three-cars instead of taking public transit. I’m an avid user of public transit and can say that it’s no suprise: Even public transit within Finland’s main tri-city region, with its 1M+ residents, is probably the sparsest of all European cities in terms of availability.
You can spend many hours each day waiting for bus connections, and many times the buses don’t even show according to their schedules. Nighttime transit is almost non-existent, and a quick taxi ride to the outskirts can easily cost 40€—generally, taxis in Finland cost about double the normal European rates.
So why would people who live on the outskirts even bother with public transit when adequate service can’t even be provided within the main city region itself?
Apparently, that’s what many people are asking themselves these days. It’s a telling phenomenon that Finnish families are willing to fork-over in excess of 20K€ in car taxes (because Finland doesn’t adhere to EU treaties and taxes automobiles at illegally high rates) rather than rely on lousy public transit.
Most of us who have any experience with Finland—I, personally, have many decades of experience—unfortunately know that Finns are experts in getting ripped off by government. Many simply believe and assume they’re getting a good deal. In this case, the choice is between buying grotesquely overpriced automobiles versus paying hefty sums for sparse public transit. I’m sure you’ll agree, neither is a good choice; both are bona-fide ripoffs in their own respects.
It all stems from Finland’s economic system which is a specter of Socialist/Communist ideology that ruled Finland in days gone by. Now, its high-tax mantra only ensures that income-producing wealth resides outside of Finland, leaving the country relatively poor, services underfunded and its working population to bear the full burden of funding the infrastructure. The system’s shortcomings are not only evidenced by international surveys, but in this case more obviously by the low standard of public transportation and lack of economically-priced alternatives.
I was pretty amazed when I read this article in HS online. My favorite part is when this dandy bit of info:
” Kalenoja asserts that the trend could be stopped if people would accept public transport as an alternative to a second car.
It would be good if people would choose where they live based on the availability of public transport. It would be a big economic relief to a family if a second car would not be needed.”
What a load of hogwash. A tank of gas is as much as it costs for me to take public transport to reach our local shopping center. I’d rather use the car because out in the boonies we have just two buses that stop an hour close to us, and we’re probably luckier than most to have that many.
Public transport puts more money in the pockets of the gov’t so of course they’d recommend this malarky to people. Don’t shoot the goose that lays the golden eggs.
Comment by Wha? — Fri, May 25th, 2007 @ 7:35 am
“Socialist/Communist ideology” - hmm, now there’s a nasty Goebbelsian phrase if any. Why is it that libertarians are so bloody ignorant, do you have something added to your tap water? Surely there would be libertarian blogs around that base their analysis on actual empirical observations? Phil certainly isn’t the sharpest knife in the drawer, but kind of likeable in his goofy way - but Kristian, you really are something, facts just seem to escape you continuously. Maybe it’s actually not a coincidence and you really are a knowing propagandist knowingly lying?
Comment by mjr — Fri, May 25th, 2007 @ 7:40 am
“A tank of gas is as much as it costs for me to take public transport to reach our local shopping center. ”
I know public transit is difficult in the boonies. Unfortunately, you still have to pay nearly double the European market price for your car due to Finland’s car tax. Compare….
http://www.autoscout24.de/
But hey, I guess that’s what loans are for, right?
Comment by Kristian — Fri, May 25th, 2007 @ 7:48 am
@1 I read that comment form Kalenoja and I was amazed of this pervasive thinking which seems to be reflected in everything in Finland which is not to incentivize but to punish people into submission, be it alcohol, cars, fuel consumption, road usage and now public transportation.
Comment by unlce sam — Fri, May 25th, 2007 @ 7:55 am
“Even public transit within Finland’s main tri-city region, with its 1M+ residents, is probably the worst of all European cities in terms of availability.”
That’s the craziest thing i’ve ever seen you say, and that’s something!
My advice: Travel *anywhere* *anywhen* in Europe.
Comment by Rich — Fri, May 25th, 2007 @ 8:13 am
“Nighttime transit is almost non-existent, and a quick taxi ride to the outskirts can easily cost 40€â€â€generally, taxis in Finland cost about double the normal European rates.”
That’s not 100% correct. The clock starts counting at an amount about double of the german, but the further you go, the more the costs adapt to the costs I am used to pay here.
Comment by Thilo — Fri, May 25th, 2007 @ 8:32 am
“Public transport puts more money in the pockets of the gov’t so of course they’d recommend this malarky to people. Don’t shoot the goose that lays the golden eggs.”
That’s actually not quite true. The government gets either 6% or 8% VAT on transportation, whereas on the price of a new car, they get almost 100% percent, and on the fuel to tank the car, they get about 300% tax. I think the government only wants people to drive 2-3 cars per family and are actually encouraging people to do it. Only a small fraction of the revenue generated by car and fuel tax is actually used to take care of the roads. Until the EU put a stop to it, the Finnish government was severely, and I mean very severely, punishing those who choose to use ecological fuels, such as rapeseed oil, mustard seed oil, bio-diesel, methane, etc. with a 6X diesel tax. Guess if there were many people working on biofuel technology in Finland. Nowadays you can burn biofuels without any extra penalty.
Comment by Sirkuspelle — Fri, May 25th, 2007 @ 8:55 am
If I might add another comment, another piece of evidence for the Finnish government encouraging people to buy many cars and use them is the irrational “back seat tax”. If there are two identical diesel powered vans, and one has a back seat whereas the other one doesn’t, the one with the back seat will end up having hundres more (about 2-3X) the diesel tax. They don’t want anyone getting free rides now do they? Ecologically, they are shooting themselves in the foot.
This is a theme I want to add in Verosirkus eventually, because this is a real circus too.
Comment by Sirkuspelle — Fri, May 25th, 2007 @ 8:59 am
In the 90’s you were allowed to install a back seat in your diesel van, but it could only have padding that was 1cm thick. If it was thicker, then you would end up paying the higher diesel tax. So basically, it ended up being a back seat cushion tax. Think of that.
Comment by Sirkuspelle — Fri, May 25th, 2007 @ 9:01 am
#
“Even public transit within Finland’s main tri-city region, with its 1M+ residents, is probably the worst of all European cities in terms of availability.â€Â
That’s the craziest thing i’ve ever seen you say, and that’s something!
My advice: Travel *anywhere* *anywhen* in Europe.
Comment by Rich  Fri, May 25th, 2007 @ 8:13 am”
I second that motion, but please take a one way ticket..
Comment by Karhu — Fri, May 25th, 2007 @ 9:30 am
Try sweden for taxis, more expensive, and they didn’t have buses coming to the castle I was staying at either. Some 30km = 70€
Comment by Keksi — Fri, May 25th, 2007 @ 9:37 am
So far so good. I haven’t noticed any significant flaws in our public transit. Expensive - kind of/life is/taxis are - but for those who aren’t making the big euros (i.e. students) it’s a pretty good bargain with 50% discounts. “You can spend many hours each day waiting for bus connections, and many times the buses don’t even show according to their schedules.” - Pfff, now that’s a load of SAD crap. Never happened to me, once, not even in the rural areas. So what, sometimes they’re 5 or 10 mins late or so, be a player and take the earlier bus instead or something.
Comment by Traveller — Fri, May 25th, 2007 @ 10:13 am
ride a bike
Comment by Anonymous — Fri, May 25th, 2007 @ 10:27 am
Kristian is full of *hit. Buses in Helsinki are usually right on time.
Comment by niko — Fri, May 25th, 2007 @ 10:53 am
I’ve heard that Finnish buses have gender identity issues.
Comment by Dave the Slave — Fri, May 25th, 2007 @ 10:57 am
Strangely, I used bus and it was nearly always on time (but Espoo probably does not count as “outskirts”.)
An off-topic observation: why does Kristian keep repeating himself over, over, and over again? It really seems like all his topics are emotional issues (say, “why do /I/ have to pay so much tax in Finland?”) posing as something up for rational discussion (”why does /everyone/ have to pay so much tax?”) Yet he ignores the counter-arguments (”We all pay different amount of tax; There are tax-effective ways to grow/keep personal wealth”), or starts a new topic with the exact same issues. But in the end, we are not addressing /his/ issue and needs. My advice to Kristian - get a (good) financial adviser to save your wealth. If you find someone (Finnish, or really, any one) who doesn’t know how the capitalism work, it’s better to educate (or encourage them) to learn about it. After all, asking for a blanket tax-reduction doesn’t help them in long term.
The belief that reducing tax will /automatically/ induce wealth, improve the efficiency (or solve real social problems), is ignoring the complex structures underneath the economy and human psyche. Just quoting your sentiment: you believe that the government’s tactic of high tax is insufficient to discourage people from owning a personal vehicle or heavy drinking (i.e, tax has no direct causal effect on people’s behaviour.) So how come it suddenly becomes self-evident that a reduction in tax scheme will have more power / effect on people? Then quoting another sentiment you had: the government should not manipulate / social-engineer people’s life, but if the tax-reduction can encourage people to invest or work harder (a type of manipulation, in fact), why is it more favourable? If the answer to that is about the well-being of the people and society (you and I included), then we are entering the realm of socialism.
I miss Phil (who doesn’t? He tends to find something amusing from time to time.) Can we send out a search team for him?
Comment by David — Fri, May 25th, 2007 @ 11:49 am
I blame this on the finlandssvenskar who are all Swedes with the same issues as the buses Dave the Slave has mentioned.
Comment by JG — Fri, May 25th, 2007 @ 11:51 am
(Mmm, my long comment seems to be in the review queue. I hope this is not the beginning of censorship.)
Comment by David — Fri, May 25th, 2007 @ 11:56 am
“Even public transit within Finland’s main tri-city region, with its 1M+ residents, is probably the worst of all European cities in terms of availability. You can spend many hours each day waiting for bus connections, and many times the buses don’t even show according to their schedules. Nighttime transit is almost non-existent”
Kristian, if you want to experience *really* sparse public transport (that’s the correct term, btw), try visiting the UK. I have no time for people (Finns) whingeing about the “state” of their public transport system. I can’t take it seriously – you don’t know how lucky you are.
Comment by DavidH — Fri, May 25th, 2007 @ 12:04 pm
And as for buses being late… (anna mun kaikki kestää…) In the area of the city where I live I’m more likely to miss my bus because it turns up *early* – this has happened more times than I can remember. Having lived and grown up in the UK, the punctuality and general hinta/laatu-suhde of the public transport here never ceases to amaze me. Gone are the days when I was forced to take trains hours in advance of the timetable, in order to be at my destination on time, or when, despite leaving my house in south London SIX HOURS before my flight departure from Stansted (just north of London), I still managed to miss the flight… Work it our for yourself.
Comment by DavidH — Fri, May 25th, 2007 @ 12:10 pm
And another thing! What vexes me about your opinions (in general, though particularly in this debate) is how obviously and naively contradictory they are. On the one hand you constantly complain that we pay too much tax, yet now you’re saying that public transport should cost the consumer less… So what you’re in fact suggesting is that we should cut tax (thus benefitting the already rich), while with this reduced revenue the government should subsidise public transport *even more* than it already does. Now, you don’t have to be the Chancellor of the Exchequer to see that this isn’t going to work. Let’s hope the honouable Mr Katainen understands this too, though somehow I doubt it.
Comment by DavidH — Fri, May 25th, 2007 @ 12:25 pm
Helsinki has decent public transport. Apart from local trains, Espoo and Vantaa are abysmal in that respect. Residents of both need to take up the issue with their city councils instead of whining here.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Fri, May 25th, 2007 @ 12:40 pm
DavidH, I couldn’t agree with you more. I’m used to taking public transportation, walking, or biking wherever I go. It has never been a problem for me in the greater Helsinki area or Turku. It is only in very rural areas, such as where my boyfriend’s parents live, where I think that a car is more practical. Even there, a bicycle gets you a long way.
I might occasionally need a car for larger transportations and such, but then I can borrow my parents’ car. A need like this arises about 2-3 times a year.
I actually do know people who live in places like Etu-Töölö and feel that they need a car to go to Haaga. Whatever!
Comment by Anzi — Fri, May 25th, 2007 @ 12:49 pm
DavidH:
despite leaving my house in south London SIX HOURS before my flight departure from Stansted (just north of London), I still managed to miss the flight… Work it our for yourself.
I’ve come pretty bloody close to missing two flights from Stansted for assuming Finnish punctuality.
Then again, the prices are nothing like the VR “ripoff”. A return trip for just under 50 quid! It’s often cheaper than the flight!
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Fri, May 25th, 2007 @ 12:56 pm
DavidH in #20: I guess that one of the ideas people contemplating, is privatisation. But it’s not all rosy when it comes to public transport, at least in UK. (Reference - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privatisation_of_British_Rail )
Comment by David — Fri, May 25th, 2007 @ 2:06 pm
I am an avid user of public transit
That’s probably because you have gender identity issues. Real men drive manly cars in an aggressive, take-charge sort of fashion. The evolution of our species clearly shows that sitting passively in girly public transport is for girls.
Also, if Finns “believe anything and assume they are getting a good deal”, how on earth can it be that most people “who have any experience with Finland” know that “Finns are experts in letting themselves get ripped off by government”? Don’t people who have any experience with Finland overwhelmingly tend to be the very Finns who, according to you, assume they’re getting a good deal?
Comment by a lamb with no guiding light — Fri, May 25th, 2007 @ 2:09 pm
@ . If there are two identical diesel powered vans, and one has a back seat whereas the other one doesn’t, the one with the back seat will end up having hundres more (about 2-3X) the diesel tax.
However than if you have an identical “commercial vehichle” your traffic insurance is 2-3X higher. So having a benzine van with a backseat (a crewcab), I’ve already “earned back” the “backseat tax” levied on it when it was imported.
Comment by Hank W. — Fri, May 25th, 2007 @ 2:29 pm
There is a large Amish group here in Southern Maryland. About one-per year some one hits them in a buggy-car collision. The horse is usually put down.
Now how would Finland tax that? A horse poop tax?
Comment by winter “Yea, Proton Power, now in remission†— Fri, May 25th, 2007 @ 3:15 pm
I think the worse part of that article was where it blamed the families with second cars for the poor rural services simply because once a family gets the second car, they are no longer interested in using public transport. That is so unfair. Maybe the reason is that the rural population no longer finds it acceptable to wait an hour IN JANUARY for the only bus to come running by.
Busses are not practical if you have to buy groceries for a large family, unless you go food shopping every day at the local kioski.
Bikes are also not valid as transportation in the winter. Finns riding bikes are five times more likely to be in an accident. Nor is it valid for those who work farther from home.
Comment by Fred Fry — Fri, May 25th, 2007 @ 3:16 pm
Fred Fry: Bikes are also not valid as transportation in the winter. ”
If the buses would be equipped to carry bicycles, then it would be a great way to travel. It’s possible in most countries I’ve lived- or toured- in.
But it’s not really possible in Finland because it would require extra space in the bus….which, in-turn, would require more frequent bus trips.
That’s another example of how we like to compare services in other countries to those of Finland—it might look the same superficially, but in reality there’s always a little compensating ripoff in Finland.
I’ve noticed that the wealthier, lower-taxed countries have the best public transit.
Comment by Kristian — Fri, May 25th, 2007 @ 3:28 pm
DavidH: “So what you’re in fact suggesting is that we should cut tax (thus benefitting the already rich), while with this reduced revenue the government should subsidise public transport *even more* than it already does.”
Well DavidH, what you fail to realize is that income producing capital will always find its home with people (shareholders) in low-tax lands.
That means people (shareholders) in those countries *own* your job in Finland. It also means that profit from your Finn-labor goes to people in those countries….and gets taxed there…..and pays for THEIR public services.
That’s why proletarian countries like Finland always struggle to fund services. Or they find ways to shortchange consumers. They can’t match the service, so they approximate as closely as possible…..and let everyone believe the quality/quantity is equal to that which is found in other lands.
Comment by Kristian — Fri, May 25th, 2007 @ 3:47 pm
I’ve been a loyal reader of this blog for a couple of years. I come here practically everyday, even if I rarely comment. But now I’ve had enough. Please, someone stop Kristian. Now. I’m not kidding, I just can’t read these posts anymore. Complete, utter bullshit with ideological bent = ARGH. I think I leave this blog, if this shit continues to go on. Thanks for the nice blog Phil, just leave the guest bloggers, please.
Comment by Passer-by — Fri, May 25th, 2007 @ 3:54 pm
DavidH: “Let’s hope the honouable Mr Katainen understands this too, though somehow I doubt it.”
He knows; it’s hard to overlook. But unfortunately, as Sirkuspelle illustrated in posts #7 & #8, Finland is mired in layers of taxation that make very little sense. It’s always been that way, and I think even the new administration is somewhat oblivious to it—everyone has his own vested interest and wants part of the cash. In the short-term, less cash means that less immediate interests will be fulfilled.
The only way to affect change is force Finland to adhere to international treaties it’s signed. For example, you can file a complaint with the European Commission.
Otherwise, don’t expect change to come from within.
Comment by Kristian — Fri, May 25th, 2007 @ 4:01 pm
Kristian, I dare you to make a positive post that explains why you want to live/live in Finland.
Very likely more than one regular reader or even some occasional visitor to this blog has had a gut full of your endless crying about how miserable your lot is, how gulible your neighbours are, how rich we would be if we made you fuhrer, how your vast international experience loads you full of sagacity, auto tax, xtax, ripoff, grog tax, tax tax, etc.
Regarding your habit of relentlessly your repeating yourself - and then even linking to your earlier posts as some kind of reference:
You may believe in the comment attributed to A. Hitler about, if you say something often enough and loud enough it becomes true, but many find it tedious and weighs down and constricts, rather than expands this discourse.
Comment by pi — Fri, May 25th, 2007 @ 4:42 pm
“Please, someone stop Kristian. Now. I’m not kidding, I just can’t read these posts anymore. Complete, utter bullshit with ideological bent = ARGH. I think I leave this blog, if this shit continues to go on. Thanks for the nice blog Phil, just leave the guest bloggers, please.” - Passer-by
Agreed!
Comment by pi — Fri, May 25th, 2007 @ 4:49 pm
“That’s why proletarian countries like Finland always struggle to fund services”
And just how big is the US budget deficit? Don’t tell me that’s a proletarian country too…
Comment by Rich — Fri, May 25th, 2007 @ 4:50 pm
@ 16, 32, 35 Uncle Phil was last sighted alive in Monaco, when he entered the casino. Not sure, if he left there alive. He’ll be back with you soon.
Apart from the outrageuos car tax, Nightwish has a new vocalist. Heard their new song this morning on the radio and it’s quite decent.
Comment by AbnerMarsh — Fri, May 25th, 2007 @ 5:23 pm
The Finns that give Kristian a hard time and the sort of people that explain WHY Finland is in the state it is today. Nothing in Finland will ever change because Fins deny that anything could posibly be wrong with their PERFECT country. They especially can’t cope with a foreigner that tells them that there is something wrong with their country.
Of course, no country is perfect. However, if you acknowledge shortcommings you can do something about them. But Finns just meekly doft their collective caps, and accept greatfully whatever pile of crap the Finnish Big Brother state provides for them. Nothing will ever change there until this blind acceptance/denial culture changes. Foreigners often have different perspectives, they tend to think in different ways. If Finns listened to foreigners views and took their advice things might improve. But Finns are far too arrogant and racist to do that
The facts are: there are over 1m living in the Helsinki area, and just one rather pathetic tube line with a handful of stops, buses do run very infrequently compared to modern European cities of the same size. Bus and train fares are also very expensive
Comment by Anonymous — Fri, May 25th, 2007 @ 5:35 pm
Kristian:
That’s why proletarian countries like Finland always struggle to fund services.
I’ve found that the former communist countries have by far the best public transport systems, especially compared to the other infrastructure. Prague and Budapest, for instance, have top-notch metros, which, needless to say, provide excellent value for money. I wish I could say the same for the London tube…
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Fri, May 25th, 2007 @ 5:38 pm
Of course, no country is perfect. However, if you acknowledge shortcommings you can do something about them.
Let me put it this way: if something is broken, the best way to fix it might not be to throw it against the wall and stomp on it. Even though that might seem like the coolest option to some.
The facts are: there are over 1m living in the Helsinki area, and just one rather pathetic tube line with a handful of stops
Thank Espoo and Kokoomus in Helsinki for that with their respective 50 and 30 years of staunch opposition to the metro.
buses do run very infrequently compared to modern European cities of the same size.
Are there modern European cities this small? Certainly not ones that are this sparsely populated.
Bus and train fares are also very expensive
In fact, they are rather average compared to western Europe.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Fri, May 25th, 2007 @ 5:54 pm
I visited Finland once, Oulu, to be precise. A single bus 20 min journey cost €3!
That, is FCUKing expensive, about double what you would pay in London, and the average wage in Oulu is certainly not double of that in London.
FF: you need to get out more. I know Finland’s isolated, but you’re seriously out of touch mate! Ever been to Vienna or Zurich or Newcastle; CHEAP CLEAN AND EFFICIENT PUBLIC TRANSPORT
Comment by Anonymous — Fri, May 25th, 2007 @ 6:01 pm
Actually I find helsinki’s transport system to be pretty good and at low cost.
Consider the trams, busses and metro’s as well as enough parking space, little traffic jams, and you’ll find the infrastructure is outstanding to congested countries like germany, the netherlands, france.
I wish you good luck in a country like britain where, for example, on christmas there is NO public transport whatsoever. This costed me a taxi to the airport from downtown costing about 80 pounds or so.
Must say i do plan to come visit here, too. Too much horseshit.
Comment by Billy Butterneck — Fri, May 25th, 2007 @ 6:19 pm
I visited Finland once, Oulu, to be precise.
Oh. No wonder you’re such an expert. Please tell us how to make everything right, o wise one.
That, is FCUKing expensive, about double what you would pay in London
In a parallel universe, perhaps.
FYI, here’s a fare finder for London transport.
Ever been to Vienna or Zurich or Newcastle
Only Vienna, I’m afraid. I might visit Zürich this summer, if I’m able to have a vacation (ever the slacking Finn - hi there, Fred).
In Vienna, the single fare is €2, i.e. the same as in Helsinki. In Zürich, the single fare is CHF 3,80 = 2,30€.
Newcastle: “Single - prices range from £1.30 to £2.70 depending on the number of zones travelled through, return tickets available”
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Fri, May 25th, 2007 @ 6:23 pm
Damn, the quality of Finland-bashers on this blog is getting low. Where’s ol’ Pundy when you need him?
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Fri, May 25th, 2007 @ 6:33 pm
“. I think I leave this blog, if this shit continues to go on.”
Kristian
the commies are leaving this blog. keep up the good work
Comment by Anonymous — Fri, May 25th, 2007 @ 6:44 pm
@37 Anoymous - “The Finns that give Kristian a hard time and the sort of people that explain WHY Finland is in the state it is today. Nothing in Finland will ever change because Fins deny that anything could posibly be wrong with their PERFECT country.
If Kristian of Espoo is given a hard time it is due not because of his views expressed (views that may be crap, ill-concieved, plain-wrong, sexist, rascist or even well considered, compassionate, relevant or otherwise), but his incessant bleating over and over the same tired old rants.
Perhaps Kristian could simply ask for a permanent bit of space in the left or right colum on the page for a summary of his own politics - it will use a lot less space than reposting the same stuff again and again with slightly different spin.
Comment by pi — Fri, May 25th, 2007 @ 7:04 pm
44 “. I think I leave this blog, if this shit continues to go on.â€Â
Kristian
the commies are leaving this blog.
It’s not only commies that eventually go and turn off the dripping tap.
Comment by pi — Fri, May 25th, 2007 @ 7:10 pm
Go Kristian, drive the commies and fans of forced social equality out of this blog
Comment by unlce sam — Fri, May 25th, 2007 @ 8:41 pm
@37, well said! My thoughts exactly. Finns are well brainwashed to think that Finland is suberb compared to any other nation in this earth. It’s sad really… How can we ever make Finland better place if we can’t even see and admit the facts? Finland has a lot of potential - the problem lies in people who still live in the past and cheer about the past achievements. Wakie, wakie, it’s not 60’s anymore.
What comes to the public transportation in Helsinki/Vantaa/Espoo area, it’s perhaps not as bad as Kristian claimed but far away from being great. Subway is convinient way to commute but we only have one line!(yes I know, from Itäkeskus the line splits in two). Trains are also quite good, but try going from east to west or vice versa. I myself bought a car solely because grew sick and tired of waiting slow buses to go work and come back home.
Comment by LaaLaa — Fri, May 25th, 2007 @ 8:47 pm
I think the public transportation in Helsinki is great, but my only comparision is to the public transportation here in the midwest US. People use it during rush hour to get downtown for work or to get around in the inner city with out a car.
Having cheap cars and relativly cheap gas is liberating. You can go anywhere at any time you want, and you can also live anywhere. Having to base where you decide to live on the availability of public transportation seems very stifling to me.
When I lived in Helsinki I worked in construction at first and it tookforever to get to job sites around town. When we bought our Fiat Uno it freed up an average of 1.5 hours a day for me. It was faster for my wife to take the bus because it was a strait shot from where we lived to her work. I would have rather lived in some other area than Puistola but we didn’t have much choice due to transport issues. After awhile I loved Puistola (we lived on the east side of the tracks, not the west
).
When people have the freedom of an automobile and cheap gas it makes the economy more dynamic because the fear of relocating, lossing a job, finding a job, etc. is much less because you know you can get to where you need to go, when you need to, no matter what the situation happens to be. People are much more comfortable with risk, and therefore make decisions that they wouldn’t make if they were more worried about their future. I’ve heard many a construction worker in Finland worry about where the next jobsite will be because of this very issue.
I not saying having a car and cheap gas is the ticket to happiness or a robust economy. It just helps a person on a personal level.
Comment by maksalaatikko — Fri, May 25th, 2007 @ 9:45 pm
“‘That’s why proletarian countries like Finland always struggle to fund services.’
Franklin: I’ve found that the former communist countries have by far the best public transport systems, especially compared to the other infrastructure.”
I agree. But those aren’t proletarian countries anymore. Finland still is, at least in the white collar sense.
Comment by Kristian — Fri, May 25th, 2007 @ 10:05 pm
Kristian:
I agree. But those aren’t proletarian countries anymore. Finland still is, at least in the white collar sense.
You’re not seriously suggesting that the public transport infrastructure was built in the 1990s, now?
As for the being proletarian, I see east European businesses being bought by westerners rather than the other way around. Russia is rather the exception due to its oligarchy. The Icelanders (i.e. Abramovich) recently acquired the online broker eQ online. Finland is being bought, and cheap.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Fri, May 25th, 2007 @ 10:31 pm
“You’re not seriously suggesting that the public transport infrastructure was built in the 1990s, now?”
Finland’s? I don’t think the infrastructure in Finland is lacking; rather, it is utilized in a sparse manner which causes long waits and lousy nighttime service. It’s an economic problem.
“I see east European businesses being bought by westerners rather than the other way around.”
It doesn’t tell you about the ownership though—technically speaking, a western business can be owned by shareholders who live in eastern countries.
I’m pretty sure money is staying in eastern countries—or at least as much as can be expected, all things considered. Most eastern European countries are using variants of the Swiss economic strategy.
I saw a nice Lamborghini with Estonia plates in front of Kämp this evening…
Comment by Kristian — Fri, May 25th, 2007 @ 10:57 pm
Kristian: MEE VITTU TAKAISIN SAKSAAN JOS SE ON NIIN MAHTAVA VITUN VALTIO. NIMIMERKILLÄ KOKEMUSTA ON.
Comment by tim73 — Sat, May 26th, 2007 @ 12:14 am
I’m always how amazed how well on time the buses in Helsinki are and how effective the system is (I live in the Turku area) and I think it’s great to get a timetable from the internet and just move from bus to bus, with the same ticket that I purchased on the first bus, and be right on time wherever I am going.
Am I the only one with really good luck here?
Comment by Mikael — Sat, May 26th, 2007 @ 12:36 am
Post 54 personifies and validates post 38. Waaaay to go Timo!
Comment by maksalaatikko — Sat, May 26th, 2007 @ 12:50 am
Sorry for this not being in English:
Tim at 54:
Totta tosiaan Tim 73. Kyllä kaikkien ulkomaalaisten pitäisi lähteä tästä paratiisista jossa saa juoda kusen lämmintä lapin kultaa ja sitten palata takaisin sossu kämppään ilman vasenta kenkää koko matkan oksenuksella merkattuaan.
Ja kukaan ei tiedä paremmin miten maailmaa pitäisi johtaa kuin suomalaiset! Kyllä näin on! Vinläänd! ! Koskenkorva PERKELE!
Joo ei tosiaan. Kyllä vittu minäkin suomesta lähtisin kun vain jossain minut ottettaisiin vastaan. Armeijaan on pakko mennä, verot on mielipuolisia, talvet ovat helevetistä, ihmiset ovat kylmiä kuin syväjäähdytetyt ruumiit, kaunoja kannetaan sukupolvesta toiseen.
Tässä foorumissa ei yritetä rakentaa mitään “positiivista suomi kuvaa” jos haluat osallistua foorumiin jossa kirjoitetaan suomalaista propagandaa mene pois. Eiköhän jokin “suomi jugend” foorumi siullekkin löydy.
Tämä on aika suomi kriittinen foorumi, amerikkalaiseen tyyliin, amerikassahan on lehdistönvapaus, kritisoida saa. Suomessa se on paperilla vain. Suomessahan kun kritisoi niin heti jokin juntti kuten sinä älähtää että “hei, toi kaveri tuolla puhuu pahaa suomesta, miten kehtaa, mennään vetämään sitä turpaan.”
Joo, ja mä olen suomalainen.
Comment by Pohjois karjala.. — Sat, May 26th, 2007 @ 1:33 am
shut up stupid tim73 you stupid retard!!!!!!
Comment by your retarded mom — Sat, May 26th, 2007 @ 1:34 am
Kristian:
Finland’s? I don’t think the infrastructure in Finland is lacking; rather, it is utilized in a sparse manner which causes long waits and lousy nighttime service.
I was referring to the ex-communist countries.
It seems that you want to lower taxes, lower ticket prices and increase the frequency of buses. I have a proposition: let the government pay taxes!
I’m pretty sure money is staying in eastern countries
What makes you think so?
I saw a nice Lamborghini with Estonia plates in front of Kämp this evening…
I’ve seen two quite famous ones with Finnish plates.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Sat, May 26th, 2007 @ 2:46 am
“Fins deny that anything could posibly be wrong with their PERFECT country.”
thats why I exist. To tell Finns about: Stupid deployment supporting thuggs and killers, Food-for -oil and the resulting Finnish votes, and their none leadership for 6 months allowing 500 000 to die in Darfur.
Comment by winter “Yea, Proton Power, now in remission†— Sat, May 26th, 2007 @ 2:57 am
”I’ve been a loyal reader of this blog for a couple of years. I come here practically everyday, even if I rarely comment. But now I’ve had enough. Please, someone stop Kristian. Now. I’m not kidding, I just can’t read these posts anymore. Complete, utter bullshit with ideological bent = ARGH. I think I leave this blog, if this shit continues to go on. Thanks for the nice blog Phil, just leave the guest bloggers, please.”
What he said
Comment by tekke — Sat, May 26th, 2007 @ 3:02 am
I for one have been most satisfied with Helsinki-Espoo-Vantaa public transport, though I’ve never lived in outskirts. For student, price for monthly three-zone ticked is imo cheap for the value gained and the routes go often and reliably enough (expect nights when few kms walk from nightbus is possible). Reittiopas on phone makes the planning of journeys so easy.
If one compares public transport of our capital to any other city in Finland, it works way better and costs often less. Don’t really have anything to complain expect the tv-screens with moving advertisements in some busses, horrible invasion of attention. Only city abroad where to what I can compare is London, where routes are more frequent but the traveltimes longer and infrastructure dirtier and in poorer shape (rats in metro, never seen them here).
Comment by Arkwright — Sat, May 26th, 2007 @ 3:04 am
Tim73:
“MEE VITTU TAKAISIN SAKSAAN JOS SE ON NIIN MAHTAVA VITUN VALTIO. NIMIMERKILLÄ KOKEMUSTA ON.”
Haha, how many drinks did it take for you to lose your English? (and yes, I understand every word.)
Your post confirms my opinion of you. You are most likely the most dangerous poster on FFT, after Thomas.
You just can’t wait to line us all up against a wall, can’t you.
Comment by Fred Fry — Sat, May 26th, 2007 @ 3:09 am
“You just can’t wait to line us all up against a wall, can’t you.”
Huh, that my line. But heck you Europeans failed to display even the tiniest modicum of competence in running the world, so line on up.
Comment by winter “Yea, Proton Power, now in remission†— Sat, May 26th, 2007 @ 3:53 am
niko - “Kristian is full of *hit. Buses in Helsinki are usually right on time.”
Well….that depends on the bus. I used to have a very short commute from downtown to Keilaniemi. In the summertime…buses were very unreliable and often were either late or didn’t come at all. During the regular schedule the buses were often overcrowded which would drive past my stop. I’ve even had them just drive right past with an empty bus in some parts of Espoo which made my husband so mad one time that he actually called to complain…not that it did much good. Public transport is never perfect and often inconvenient, especially when compared to a car, but it beats trying to find parking, paying for parking and the whole overall expense of a car. At the rate fuel keeps rising in price, we should all get used to walking and riding bicycles more often.
Comment by hfb — Sat, May 26th, 2007 @ 4:39 am
The reason for those high car taxes is a not existing car industry in Finland. So every car purchase means that a lot of national wealth goes out of the country as no parts of the car were produced in Finland. As a result, the car prices in Finland are really low compared to other countries (e.g., Germany, Holland, Austria) when you take the taxes away from the purchasing price. That is why people on the continent like to import Finnish cars when they have a way of getting the tax money back. The price is simply cheaper.
Comment by bafana — Sat, May 26th, 2007 @ 11:30 am
You just can’t wait to line us all up against a wall, can’t you.
Fred, I believe it’s you who has been touting the death penalty.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Sat, May 26th, 2007 @ 1:11 pm
Now you don’t see it, now you do. Might be interesting to know if all the posts prior to the disappearance have been restored. One hopes so.
Might also be worth reading them all again to see just WHAT it was that caused the thread to vanish. It’s a button to be cherished.
Comment by Hello, stranger — Mon, May 28th, 2007 @ 2:57 pm
I’m very sorry about the disappearing post.
From the beginning, I thought Phil took it offline—which would be strange because Phil never takes anything offline unless it’s spam. But I couldn’t reach him, so I couldn’t comment on why it disappeared. And obviously, I wouldn’t want to second-guess his decisions about these things.
As you might know, Phil is away for now—in Monoco, as someone mentioned
But he’s now informed me that it went offline due to a technical glitch that’s happened a few times before. It was neither his doing nor mine (unless I did it by accident somehow).
Believe me, I’m just as disappointed as you are, as this is one of my favorite topics. If I can figure out how to increment the post so that it’s closer to the beginning, I’ll do it. I don’t think we’re done with this subject yet…
Comment by Kristian — Mon, May 28th, 2007 @ 3:03 pm
Perhaps it would satisfy the hungry-for-information if you told them why you made no comment to this effect when challenged repeatedly on the matter on another thread. Otherwise, I fear, this apology will come as too little, too late, and only serve to increase the groundswell of annoyance. I refer to the comments made on the daycare thread, some good long while after this particular one had gone belly-up. A simple remark and explanation then would have saved a great deal of damage limitation now. And may have rescued credibility. In the circumstances, I envision “cover-up” will become a popular jibe.
Comment by Hello, stranger — Mon, May 28th, 2007 @ 3:41 pm
@ 68 #
Now you don’t see it, now you do. Might be interesting to know if all the posts prior to the disappearance have been restored. One hopes so.
Hmm, I think the post below did not display “before the incident”
”
16. #
Strangely, I used bus and it was nearly always on time (but Espoo probably does not count as “outskirtsâ€Â.)
An off-topic observation: why does Kristian keep repeating himself over, over, and over again? It really seems like all his topics are emotional issues (say, “why do /I/ have to pay so much tax in Finland?â€Â) posing as something up for rational discussion (â€Âwhy does /everyone/ have to pay so much tax?â€Â) Yet he ignores the counter-arguments (â€ÂWe all pay different amount of tax; There are tax-effective ways to grow/keep personal wealthâ€Â), or starts a new topic with the exact same issues. But in the end, we are not addressing /his/ issue and needs. My advice to Kristian - get a (good) financial adviser to save your wealth. If you find someone (Finnish, or really, any one) who doesn’t know how the capitalism work, it’s better to educate (or encourage them) to learn about it. After all, asking for a blanket tax-reduction doesn’t help them in long term.
The belief that reducing tax will /automatically/ induce wealth, improve the efficiency (or solve real social problems), is ignoring the complex structures underneath the economy and human psyche. Just quoting your sentiment: you believe that the government’s tactic of high tax is insufficient to discourage people from owning a personal vehicle or heavy drinking (i.e, tax has no direct causal effect on people’s behaviour.) So how come it suddenly becomes self-evident that a reduction in tax scheme will have more power / effect on people? Then quoting another sentiment you had: the government should not manipulate / social-engineer people’s life, but if the tax-reduction can encourage people to invest or work harder (a type of manipulation, in fact), why is it more favourable? If the answer to that is about the well-being of the people and society (you and I included), then we are entering the realm of socialism.
I miss Phil (who doesn’t? He tends to find something amusing from time to time.) Can we send out a search team for him?
Comment by David  Fri, May 25th, 2007 @ 11:49 am
“
Comment by pi — Mon, May 28th, 2007 @ 3:50 pm
The same people always criticise you for telling like it is. You make good points. No need to apologise.
Comment by Anonymous — Mon, May 28th, 2007 @ 7:22 pm
I couldn’t SWEAR to it, but I’ve the damnedest sense that that earlier post at #69 has been edited after the fact. But no, nobody would do that and put in stuff about “doing it by accident”… nah.. .. couldn’t be. Absolutely not. Couldn’t possibly comment. Nope. Obviously not. More than my job’s worth… etc, etc. Good grief.
Comment by Hello, stranger — Mon, May 28th, 2007 @ 10:20 pm
Anonymous #38: “buses do run very infrequently compared to modern European cities of the same size. Bus and train fares are also very expensive”
These are NOT facts in the slightest. Again, no one – not even Kristian, in his infinite wisdom – appears to have addressed my point. You’re calling for *more* public transport, but you want it to cost less. How do you suggest funding this? Privatisation is hardly the answer: it didn’t work in the UK, Reagonomics *certainly* didn’t work in the US (private investment DOES NOT benefit those less well-off in our society), yet you seem to want us to repeat these mistakes, even with the benefit of twenty years’ worth of hindsight. How nonsensical! How ludicrous!
Comment by DavidH — Mon, May 28th, 2007 @ 11:34 pm
#40: “The facts are: there are over 1m living in the Helsinki area, and just one rather pathetic tube line with a handful of stops
Thank Espoo and Kokoomus in Helsinki for that with their respective 50 and 30 years of staunch opposition to the metro.”
Hurrah! I couldn’t have said it better myself! And, remind me, where was it that over 60,000 misguided people voted for a certain narrowly averted presidential disaster?
Comment by DavidH — Mon, May 28th, 2007 @ 11:38 pm
Well, If even Helsinki public transit (which is a public transit heaven compared to rest of the country) sucks, how can we improve it? When I did my part of converting Salmisaari electricity into kinetic energy of Helsinkians arses, the taxpayers put some 500Mmk into HKL coffers and the ticket buyers put another 500Mmk. As HKL was a non-profit organization, one may say that half of the ticket price was subsidized by the city council.
Now cheaper tickets are wanted with more frequent connections. How to make the ends meet? First, drivers workday consists of driving + few pauses based on law. Slacking by surfing on porn pages on company time is simply impossible, unlike in some high productivity jobs. Timetables are set by clocking the damn Rosbergs on the line. Middle management was cut down and sent back to driving in the 90’s.
So how do we proceed? Lower driver’s salaries? (They are a major cost afterall) Increase their working hours? Or perhaps subsidize the public transport some more? Privitization just puts more shareholders to be fed in every gap so the circus itself must run with even less. Usually the quality also goes down, unless the service buyer is a real mulquist, who checks all the time that everything is done by the contract.
Comment by Antti rn — Tue, May 29th, 2007 @ 1:01 am
Antti: “So how do we proceed? Lower driver’s salaries? [...] Increase their working hours? Or perhaps subsidize the public transport some more? Privitization just puts more shareholders to be fed…”
Good questions Antti. My argument on this matter has never been privatizing vs. not privatizing (although the reading-impaired have always accused me of supporting privatization).
So, I will acquiesce just this once and provide a small illustration using privatization and shareholders….since YOU mentioned it.
Having shareholders taking a cut is not necessarily bad, but only IF they reside in Finland. That’s because shareholders receive dividends, and dividends get taxed. The part that’s not taxed initially gets re-invested and taxed later.
Whereas you can try to implement all those things you mentioned—lower salaries, longer hours, etc.—the only tenable solution is to get more shareholders (and capital) to reside in Finland. This can be considered independently of whether the transportation system itself is public or private—it’s almost irrelevant.
Without income-producing private capital in the country, the system will always be limited by—e.g. how cheaply people are willing to work. Or how fast (the GDP treadmill). Again, irrespective of whether the transit system is public or private.
Ultimately, having income-producing wealth in society—even if it is unevenly distributed—is the only way to increase funding for public transit without compromising on something else.
We can take lessons from the Swiss on that one.
http://www.finlandforthought.net/2006/12/07/finlands-net-worth-per-capita-lowest-in-old-eu-by-alot/
Comment by Kristian — Tue, May 29th, 2007 @ 1:43 am
Kristian Good questions Antti. My argument on this matter has never been privatizing vs. not privatizing (although the reading-impaired have always accused me of supporting privatization).
So, I will acquiesce just this once and provide a small illustration using privatization and shareholders….since YOU mentioned it.
You point out that Antti has asked some good questions, which you fail to make any attempt to address. Antti mentions shareholders in the context of privatization of transport and you play your usual loop tape mantra - and you blame Antti for it!
If only the “just this once” part of your comment were true.
Comment by pi — Tue, May 29th, 2007 @ 4:09 am
pi: “and you blame Antti for it!”
No, I don’t.
However, you are obviously one of those “reading-impaired” types I referenced.
And posting at 4:09, I’ll assume that you’re also an ‘unemployed type.’
Comment by Kristian — Tue, May 29th, 2007 @ 6:32 am
#76: “lower salaries, longer hours, etc.â€â€the only tenable solution is to get more shareholders (and capital) to reside in Finland. ”
Great. Herein lies the essence of fiscal conservativism: the (Finnish) shareholders get richer, while the poor can either work harder for less pay or piss off (and in this case, probably piss off home, as, deplorably, it’s generally only immigrants who are forced to work under such appalling conditions.) You people have no shame whatsoever, but what galls me most about that is that you don’t even care – you positively revel in your own selfishness.
Comment by DavidH — Tue, May 29th, 2007 @ 10:21 am
“And posting at 4:09, I’ll assume that you’re also an ‘unemployed type.’” - Kristian
And if you keep on posting things like this, Kristian, I’ll bet pretty soon you’re gonna be somewhat “under-employed” on these pages, because mostly people are just getting irritated with these pages.
What if the guy has insomnia, or perhaps the WordPress software made it look like it was 4:09? I mean, it deleted a whole blog entry, now, didn’t it?
:-D
By the way, the ultra rich people you get such a boner for do NOT ride the bus.
Comment by DAVE THE RAVE — Tue, May 29th, 2007 @ 11:08 am
Kristian pi: “and you blame Antti for it!â€Â
No, I don’t.
However, you are obviously one of those “reading-impaired†types I referenced.
So what were you meaning by “So, I will acquiesce just this once … since YOU mentioned it. (complete with CAPS) if you weren’t attributing the reason for you re-re-re-repeating your usual drivel to Antti? Explain how it would be read by the unimpaired?
And posting at 4:09, I’ll assume that you’re also an ‘unemployed type.’
This quip is a typical product of your defective logic.
Comment by pi — Tue, May 29th, 2007 @ 12:31 pm
“people are just getting irritated with these pages.”
Yes, but in particular those who consistently disagree with anything that’s written here…yet have no solutions of their own to share.
As for the rest of us, we’d actually like to improve things.
Comment by Kristian — Tue, May 29th, 2007 @ 11:13 pm
Where is my dirty foul mouthed little pinkie friend Tim73 adn all of his wisdom? As for post 57, “right on the money.” This is that wonderful perfect country with the freest press in the world blah blah blah…. (but if anyone dare mention a problem or ask a question of it, especially a foreigner, watch out) Weren’t you lot ever involved in debating? That’s right, in left wing, politically correct Finland we are all equal and it is wrong to say no to something. Now I understand you all
Comment by Punter — Tue, May 29th, 2007 @ 11:32 pm
Punter, you do remind me so heartwarmingly of Finnpundit, maybe you are spiritual if not actual twins? There seemed always to be something extra than just our People’s Republic’s “communist” ways that aroused his oddly shrill pronouncements. You do sound like also having quite a sizable chip on shoulder…
Kristian, bravo, you re-materialized the post - nice!
Comment by mjr — Tue, May 29th, 2007 @ 11:40 pm
No. As I remeber, Pundy, just like my other friend Winter, certainly had pro US views in terms of foreign policy that certainly made my blood boil. A fact I mentioned several times on FFT as well as on his/her own blog. Although I might agree in some areas I will never bow my head or keep quiet in areas I disagree, regardless of whose opinion I’m doubting.
Now if you would just open your mind to change, opinion and development instead of simply regressing to historical posts and comparisons between people, you and your like minded friends might find a middle ground with some of us “right wing fanatics” where we can agree and make a difference.
Comment by Punter — Wed, May 30th, 2007 @ 12:04 am
I’m not sticking this privatization on Kristian. I just took it up, as it was one alternative in discussion, when I was in transit business in the 90’s. At that time they were watching very closely what was happening in Britain.
Helsingin Raitiotie ja Omnibusosakeyhtiö actually used to be a private company until 1945 when Stadi took over. (The old “RaO” logo is still visible on ornaments of Töölö tram depot.)
OK, if I got it right, Kristian is proposing us to became rich (or more rich in global scale) so we can afford decent public transport. It makes sense. Meanwhile, I wonder how rich a society needs to become. We are supposed to be best off ever in history, but are we improving? Cutting down seems to be the word, be it public transit or taking care of the old geezers.
Comment by Antti rn — Wed, May 30th, 2007 @ 12:17 am
Punter:
(but if anyone dare mention a problem or ask a question of it, especially a foreigner, watch out)
Indeed, the result might be discussion, where the wise foreigner’s (or Finn’s, for that matter) flawless arguments might even be challenged. The horror! The xenophobia! The racism! The commie brainwashing!
Just sometimes, it might be questioned whether the horrible problem is such a big deal after all. Such as with the supposedly sorry state of public transit in Helsinki.
And Kristian, metros tend to stop by midnight everywhere and there are night buses in Helsinki. Move out of Espoo, dude.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Wed, May 30th, 2007 @ 12:34 am
“Yes, but in particular those who consistently disagree with anything that’s written here…yet have no solutions of their own to share.” - Kristian
You couldn’t have written a more true statement. Except your solutions are the same no matter the problem; “Let some assholes get rich and then everything will be good! “Cut the taxes for the wealthy and the poor will prosper!” “Fry bacon on one side then eat it because you cant’s stand it no more!”
Okay, that last line was mine, but the other two sound remarkably familiar.
Comment by Dave the Slave — Wed, May 30th, 2007 @ 12:54 am
Still, you haven’t honestly explained how the post disappeared for a day or two, have you?
Comment by Dave the Slave — Wed, May 30th, 2007 @ 12:55 am
And another thing, why arent the FFT boards at http://www.finlandforthought.net/ bothered by you fellows and gals? It is a much more comfy way of communicating like this.
Comment by Dave the Slave — Wed, May 30th, 2007 @ 12:57 am
Regarding #89: No, and he still hasn’t answered my question either (which I’ve now asked at least twice) as to how he plans to fund improvements to the public transPORT service once he’s taken away the very funding that makes it work so well. The thing is, there is no answer, because this position is completely flawed.
Comment by DavidH — Wed, May 30th, 2007 @ 1:21 am
#87
The whole crux of the problem is should you decide where you live based on public transit? No. Especially when you consider how expensive it is to live in Hki.
Comment by unit — Wed, May 30th, 2007 @ 8:12 am
Kristian - “ Yes, but in particular those who consistently disagree with anything that’s written here…yet have no solutions of their own to share. “, as noted by Dave the Slave in #89: You only have one very well worn “solution” and you simply regurgitate it regardless of the issue of discussion - many of which you’ve kicked-off of late.
Anyone who disagrees with just one thing - your one-eyed final solution, (well described by Dave the Slave as ““Let some assholes get rich and then everything will be good! “Cut the taxes for the wealthy and the poor will prosper!— is going to appear to disagree with “anything that’s written here ” - by you at least.
See if you can get a bit of left or right column space and from Phil and put your final solution there so we can refer to it even more easily than reading every alternate post from you.
Comment by pi — Wed, May 30th, 2007 @ 11:24 am
Uunit 93.”The whole crux of the problem is should you decide where you live based on public transit? No.
Access to public transport is one of the numerous local amenities to be considered if you have a choice of where to live, as are things such as access to shops, cinemas, sporting facilities, libraries, schools etc. If you have need for any of these kinds of amenities it is not going to be very convenient for you to choose to distance yourself from it.
If you need to catch a train regularly, it’s going to be more convenient for you to decide to live near a station. If you need to use a school, likewise it is a more convenient choice to live near a school and so on.
It is indeed prudent to consider access to public transport when choosing where to live.
Comment by pi — Wed, May 30th, 2007 @ 11:43 am
Antti: I’m not sticking this privatization on Kristian.”
Yes, I knew that. And just to be clear, I responded to your comment because YOU (unlike some others) are one who actually doesn’t accuse me of seeing privatization as a solution to everything—some things maybe, but not everything.
Antti: “OK, if I got it right, Kristian is proposing us to became rich (or more rich in global scale) so we can afford decent public transport. It makes sense. ”
It makes sense because there are only two basic ways to earn income:
1). labor
2). returns on capital investment
The first one is limited by how fast we can work. The second one is less limited. Theoretically, the public infrastructure of an entire society could be financed solely via taxes collected from returns on capital investment.
There really should be no reason for low- to lower-middle income earners to pay ANY income tax whatsoever. Maybe just a small VAT.
I say let the rich pay most of the taxes.
Comment by Kristian — Wed, May 30th, 2007 @ 3:00 pm
Kristian:
I say let the rich pay most of the taxes.
And how do you propose to invite the rich to pay our taxes? I presume you mean the really rich, as above-average wage earners are bearing most of the tax burden as it is.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Wed, May 30th, 2007 @ 7:19 pm
“And how do you propose to invite the rich to pay our taxes?”
Well, the rich will always pay taxes *somewhere*, but they’ll always look for attractive deals. However, it doesn’t necessarily mean that the lowest rate wins every time. There are other factors, like a stable legal environment and fair treatment from authorities.
Ultimately, there’s competition between countries to attract/retain capital—specifically for the reasons I mentioned. From a country’s point-of-view, you can see it best in terms of marketing strategy with different price points and offerings.
“I presume you mean the really rich,”
Not necessarily. In my opinion, all levels of income and wealth should find it beneficial to stay and contribute. So, it’s not just about attracting/retaining really rich people per se. Generally, you shouldn’t exclude any wealth- or income-level from contributing to the tax base. It’s really a matter of aligning the system competitively with other countries.
Comment by Kristian — Thu, May 31st, 2007 @ 2:52 pm
Back to the taxi point…
Or you could have a cheap taxi system like NYC where each ride will cost about $10 but…you take your life in your own hands, the drivers don’t speak English, the smell is usually horrific, the cabs are in terrible condition, you get car sick because of the rapid speed because they are searching for the next fare AND you are expected to tip for this great “service”.
Gee, who wouldn’t want that, instead of the safe, clean, reliable taxis we have here?
And the bus/train/tram system here is AMAZING compared to the US.
Comment by Heh — Tue, Jun 5th, 2007 @ 5:49 pm
pezw lxkjrobw earjunf lqij lzvght ysbukdpja rmcwha
Comment by vpsj uiaq — Fri, Oct 26th, 2007 @ 2:54 am
zidyuqfmh joterx hwpl jrdoamcsq vukhitbzy tzcxoyn yaxo http://www.buqlgi.ldkif.com
Comment by hwutao phlajwxgr — Fri, Oct 26th, 2007 @ 2:54 am
daozlni ogrhje
http://harryaguilar.pablohost.com/fact-fic3b/helpless-sexy.html helpless sexy
Comment by helpless sexy — Sat, May 17th, 2008 @ 4:24 pm
lxjrsyp wchbasz
http://jamesmauck.hostedwith.us/erectileb7/volunteers-needed-for-medical-research-erectile-dysfunction.html volunteers needed for medical research erectile dysfunction
Comment by volunteers needed for medical research erectile dysfunction — Tue, May 27th, 2008 @ 3:21 pm
xbgjhu gokx ifnjux
http://ellenluton.itrello.com/erectile7e/erectile-disfunctions-caused-by-dipping-tobacco.html erectile disfunctions caused by dipping tobacco
Comment by erectile disfunctions caused by dipping tobacco — Tue, May 27th, 2008 @ 11:04 pm
Cool site. Thank you!
http://xn--villaferruea-khb.com/admin/modulos/html/poko/azoq/golf-community-home-sites-for-sale-research-triangle-area.php golf community home sites for sale research triangle area
http://xn--villaferruea-khb.com/admin/modulos/html/poko/azoq/large-golf-shoes.php large golf shoes
http://xn--villaferruea-khb.com/admin/modulos/html/poko/azoq/standard-scratch.php standard scratch
http://xn--villaferruea-khb.com/admin/modulos
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, May 28th, 2008 @ 1:03 am