“do you think he’d change his mind about some of this if he’d only live in Finland for a year?”

No.

Yeah, me too, no, he wouldn’t.

It takes more than a year to really know a country, but I suspect he would think a little differently when he bought his first automobile.
When he refers to the “educational performance” he may be talking about the high levels of educated people. Isn’t Finland the leader in Masters Degrees per capita? I heard something along those lines once.

This is another one of those “international reports” that put a good light on Finland, but don’t really help or benefit us. I mean, How can this help us improve our wealth.

#3

Exactly, he needs at least couple of years to sober up.

I’m with Rich and mjr, the correct answer is “No”. Do I get a prize?

As for the educational system….have you even taken part in it?? Did you really write “I dont think it’s horrible?”…Brotha, please

The concept of lifelong learning, the availability of educational opportunities at all ages, probably isn’t even considered by the author.

The demands for teacher training in Finland are incredibly high and thorough…any jackass in the States with a bachelor’s degree (and from what I remember maybe not even that) can be a teacher…In Finland, one needs to complete a master’s degree….

Where Finland may lag is in the upper echelon of higher education, as the resources to attract some of the top (most expensive) professors don’t currently exist.

Finnish education system is not that good. Pisa score for 15 years old kids doesn’t contributes much for top-end R&D. Basically the educational problem starts from university level. Finnish education is good for vocational education I agree, but it lags way behind for top-end innovation.

“Finnish education system is not that good. Pisa score for 15 years old kids doesn’t contributes much for top-end R&D. ”

That seems to imply that the only function of an education system is to contribute to top end R & D.

“Finnish education is good for vocational education I agree, but it lags way behind for top-end innovation.”

Actually per capita it’s pretty innovative. HUT and TUT are not MIT or CALTECH but they do a very good job nonetheless. Finland does not need the best technology universities in the world to do well – just very good ones.

“Finland does not need the best technology universities in the world to do well- just very good ones”

Or maybe just good or average ones. There is one very good one in Finland.(TKK)

This guy did not actualy say that Finland’s Education was the best in the world.
He said “the the Finnish system was rated” best in the world..

The..System was Rated by someone..not him…
Quality of end product.= clever Finns….not mentioned.
Quite few non Finns seem to use it also…because it is both FOC and highly rated..one must assume that if the end result..usable degrees, was not good..someone would have said so.

However, please can someone offer up a possible challenger that has a better system.
Dont know about USA/Canada..but Europe… I cant think of one.
Reason is also stated by this guy..it is a fact that all recent Finnish governments have invested more (% of tax income) into Education than most other European countries.

Perhaps if Phil would breed..he would be able to tell us more on the subject.

Comment by european “Finnish education system is not that good. Pisa score for 15 years old kids doesn’t contributes much for top-end R&D. Basically the educational problem starts from university level. Finnish education is good for vocational education I agree, but it lags way behind for top-end innovation.”

Based on my own engineering degree from Brown, and experience from hiring and managing a multinational team of engineers, you don’t know what you are talking about.

“This guy did not actualy say that Finland’s Education was the best in the world.
He said “the the Finnish system was rated” best in the world..”

Actually, he wrote, “Its educational performance is rated the best in the world.”

From this, we might infer that he’s telling us Finland has the best system…..unless he’s attributing Finland’s alleged performance success to cultural factors, like homogeneity? Hmmm.

I’m not making any statements about whether Finland’s education system or performance is good or bad; I’m mostly neutral on the issue. I only find it curious how he represents his case.

One thing that would help Finland is some sort of change where younger people have a good opportunity to work part-time and summer jobs. Too many never do any work until they finish university in their mid-20′s with a blank resume when it comes to work experience.

Speaking of statistics and correlation, has anyone else noticed the following cast-iron rule?

Statistics apparently disproving Kristians agenda = Instantly questionable, methodologically flawed and hard to draw conclusions from.

Statistics apparently proving Kristians agenda = Undeniably true, undoubtedly accurate, and capable of facilitating the most enormous extrapolation.

One thing that would help Finland is some sort of change where younger people have a good opportunity to work part-time and summer jobs. Too many never do any work until they finish university in their mid-20’s with a blank resume when it comes to work experience.

WTF!? As a student, I don’t know anyone who doesn’t work at least at summer. A 25-year-old person with no work experience is probably as common as a polar bear in Lapland.

#14 No, I’m only asking which statistics he’s using. So far, nobody knows. Unit might have a good point though about the Master’s degrees.

I’m actually more surprised that he wrote Finland doesn’t, “put up trade barriers or subsidize chosen industries.”

Unquestionably, of ALL the EU countries, Finland does it the most—by far.

The protectionism is largely enabled by geography; only those who can travel—or live abroad—can benefit from a true ‘open’ European marketplace with its competitive selection and pricing.

In the linked article

“It has ranked No. 1 in the World Economic Forum’s global competitiveness index four times since 2001″

I can’t help but wonder how much of Finland’s supposed competitiveness is due tohaving full access to foreign markets yet closing its own.

What ever the reason it doesn’t seem like all that “compeitiveness” provides a higher standard fo living for Finns.

Kristian -

Are you sure that he’s talking about Finland when he says economies shouldn’t put up trade barriers etc? My interpretation is that Finland was his example for taking up the R&D challenge and doesn’t really talk about Finland’s protectionism, only that many economies turn to protectionism in the face of globalization.

Entrepreneurs have it difficult in Finland. It’s not only high taxes that get you but the overall high cost of things to start and run the business. All while maintaining a high cost of living in general. I’ve explored it thoroughly during last year.

I could get loans to pay for the high startup but then I’d have high loans to pay down. Finland isn’t really designed for entrepreneurs. Maybe that is why there are so few. You really need a niche idea to make the effort succeed.

Anyone gotten any business education in Finland – learning of the “realities of life” are very reluctant to start a business for the reasons given above. Its only the ignorant and then “naive foreigners” that start a business imagining of success and riches. Firstly you will drop off all sorts of government aid systems, and have to contribute a lot of social fees. That is more of a hindrance than the taxation and high VAT. And then if the business doesn’t success that well – there is no such thing as a personal banktrupcy. Your children need to disown you to avoid your debts…

So not wanting to start a business is just common sense.

19 You really need a niche idea to make the effort succeed.
Well that is one very good incentive for creativity, for smarter businesses and ideas.
The concept that,
“entreprenuership” in itself is fabulous, is flawed if it’s based on unoriginal, franchised or borrowed ideas.

Kristian: “I’m actually more surprised that he wrote Finland doesn’t, “put up trade barriers or subsidize chosen industries.”

Unquestionably, of ALL the EU countries, Finland does it the most—by far.

The protectionism is largely enabled by geography;”

Can you please cite any figures, studies etc. supporting your claim of Finland being the most protectionist of the EU countries? Name for example the trade barriers kept up by the Finnish govt. that France, Germany or Denmark do not have. It would be very interesting to see on which data you are basing your arguments on.

If Finland’s geography and low population make it unappealing for foreign companies to enter the Finnish market, it is not “protectionism” but pure circumstance. Basically the Finnish government should go above and beyond its duty to free trade and subsidize foreign enterprise to make up for our markets’ natural disadvantages and bring market accessibility on par with Central Europe…

#6-”The demands for teacher training in Finland are incredibly high and thorough…any jackass in the States with a bachelor’s degree (and from what I remember maybe not even that) can be a teacher…In Finland, one needs to complete a master’s degree….”

Really? Can you explain all of the “tuntioppetajat”, assistants and freelance “teachers currently employed in the system, from day care to polytechnic and beyond? Most are only moderately educated and employed for various other “reasons” or then are sent from the unemployment office to earn their checks.

“Can you please cite any figures, studies etc. supporting your claim of Finland being the most protectionist of the EU countries?”

Three examples:
Ikea had to wait for 7 (seven!) years before getting the license to open its first shop in Finland.

Lidl had similar problems as well to enter in the finnish market.

Import car tax is outrageously against the already existing EU agreement free circulation of goods inside EU.

Fortunately liquor tax is counted based on amount of liquor, not quality. Thus good wines are rather affordable here.

And because the liquor monopoly is a large buyer of wines, they also get good price deals from them.

Hard liquor should be more expensive so that teens, unemployed or others with little money wouldn’t afford it this easily as today. Otherwise I can’t complain our system.

“Hard liquor should be more expensive so that teens, unemployed or others with little money wouldn’t afford it this easily as today.”

Even with super-high prices, alcoholics will just mix-in ethanol to compensate.

The rest of us will just buy from Estonia and elsewhere—unlike beer and wine, hard liquor is compact, so it’s easy to transport large quantities. That’s why Alko can’t raise price very much without losing sales.

I’d say that Finland’s alcohol policy is the main cause for Finland’s alcohol problem. Alcoholics should be steered toward cheap wine (3€/large jug) and beer (.35ct/.5L) like they are in Germany, not toward hard liquor like in Finland.

But hey, screw the alcoholics. It’s most important that the rest of us can have our fancy wines every now and then :-/

Drakon:

“Can you please cite any figures, studies etc. supporting your claim of Finland being the most protectionist of the EU countries?”

Don’t you know your Kristian already. What has he babbled on about endlessly? Autovero. But since it – afaik – applies even to cars MANUFACTURED in Finland (weren’t Uusikaupunki cars treated the same way?). Imported used cars – which seems to be Kristians pet project – are of course “somewhat problematic”. But, car buyers should be treated fairly, and why would a buyer of a new car, who bought it abroad, be treated differently than a buyer of an old car?

Phil,

I have a suggestion for your blog. How about creating a daily or weekly “Idiot Comment Award” ??

Contestant 1
Number 21 who thinks its good to have high barriers and less entrepreneurs. Ill assume he also thinks its good to have low pay since everybody should be a worker. few employers.

Contestant 2
Number 22 who needs proof that Finland uses protectionism to keep its prices high.

Contestent 3
Number 25 whose solution to problems are to raise alcohol taxes and prices even more.

Number 27 Thomas can be barred from this competition because he’d win every time. It would be unfair to the others.

What do you think about the idea Phil?

“And then there’s the state liquor monopoly which quadruples—even quintuples—the price of any imported beers. Wine selection is kept within a narrow and high price range. Alcoholics should be steered toward cheap wine (3€/large jug)”

Let’s assume that Finland would allow selling of wines freely in supermarkets. The only concequence would be that Prisma and Citymarket would start selling Pirkka Merlot and Rainbow Chardonnay. I cannot see how that would benefit anyone else but Kesko and S-group. And of cource Kristian who prefers 3€/large jug wines. I have been all around Europe and it is very rare that any shop anywhere has so good collection of Wines as Alko. Most shops tend to sell only local cheap garbage and if lucky some other 4€ dishwater. Alko’s prices for quality wines are very affordable. I do not wish a situation that I have to travel to Helsinki and Kämp to buy the wines I want. Now I can buy everything in local Alko.

“Let’s assume that Finland would allow selling of wines freely in supermarkets.”

That would be travesty. The Finnish state would dissolve into nothingness.

“I have been all around Europe and it is very rare that any shop anywhere has so good collection of Wines as Alko.”

Have you ever been in France or Italy? Typically in supermarkets of medium size you find hundreds of wines, mainly of the same nationality, but of all qualities.

I agree that in Alko you have a choice of wines from all the world, but there are wine cellars for that in Europe as well.

“I do not wish a situation that I have to travel to Helsinki and Kämp to buy the wines I want. Now I can buy everything in local Alko.”

local Alko?!? There are only 300 Alko points in the WHOLE Finland and you think you can say it is a “local” shop? I hate so much the fact that I cannot buy a bottle of wine together with the other food staff and I have to waste time to go to another shop (which is not near my place). Would it be so terrible to sell wine in the supermarket? Do not tell me that people would get more drunk because of that. It is nonsense. If they can go to the supermarket they can go to Alko.

“Have you ever been in France or Italy? Typically in supermarkets of medium size you find hundreds of wines”

No, no. Only Finland has good wines. Everybody else has crap.

“Do not tell me that people would get more drunk because of that.”

Yeah, sometimes they fall down on the sidewalk. Good thing it’s not like that in Finland thanks to Alko.

Mikko: “Three examples:
Ikea had to wait for 7 (seven!) years before getting the license to open its first shop in Finland.

Lidl had similar problems as well to enter in the finnish market.

Import car tax is outrageously against the already existing EU agreement free circulation of goods inside EU.”

Decent points, but I was not contesting the fact that in some ways Finland uses protectionist policies, just the claim that Finland is the “most protectionist EU country by far”. But all other EU nations also indulge in the sin of protectionism, in varying degrees. Comparative proof is what is needed here.

seeker of truth, I kindly thank you for selecting me for your shortlist for the “Idiocy Award”. I am deeply honored to receive such a nod from someone so eminently more accomplished in that particular field of human endeavour.

seeker of “truth”:

“Number 27 Thomas can be barred from this competition because he’d win every time. It would be unfair to the others.”

My comment in this thread is untrue in what sense? Kristian may think what he likes about alco-taxes etc., but they are NOT trade-barriers, since they do NOT promote domestic production.

Call me an idiot if you like, but you do not seek the truth.

“But all other EU nations also indulge in the sin of protectionism, in varying degrees.”

Protectionism is difficult in most other countries. That’s because people can simply drive across their respective borders and buy whatever they want. Retailers wouldn’t gain by protecting their home industries. Instead, they’d lose sales.

Switzerland is a great example; one can use the immense purchasing power of the Franc to buy goods in the ultra-cheap EU. It forces Swiss retailers to keep their own prices down.

Finns can cross the border too, but it costs about 650€ on Silja Line with car. Finnish retailers/cartels take advantage of that threshold. They can arbitrarily decide which products to sell high and which to sell low; there are no repercussions.

Of course, Finnish retailers might say that overpricing is necessary to compensate for the high taxes (Tax Wedge) in Finland. Unfortunately it is done at the expense of the Finnish consumer.

Alko takes advantage of the 55€ threshold to Estonia and sets its prices accordingly. It has no competition other than Estonia. There’s also the law that states all beer over 4.6% (?) can only be sold by Alko. That ensures most import beers stay out of the supermarkets; only Alko can sell them….at ripoff prices of course.

“Protectionism is difficult in most other countries. That’s because people can simply drive across their respective borders and buy whatever they want.”

Like the French, who can drive to Germany and buy their electricity from there?

Well, it isn’t much worth going to Sweden as the prices are higher there. And the logic doesn’t work with Norway, where people from Oslo can easily do the stint over to Sweden, which for them is cheaper. And Estonia is not *that* much cheaper, depends on how much and of what you buy. Its 44e to cross one way, so to make up for the 88e I’d need to buy a whole years supply of dry goods to make it even. Now then say if I go to a spa and get some physiotherapy and buy medicines – then the difference starts making the trip worth it; then the cheap groceries and miscellaneous stuff makes it worth to go shop Rimi empty while you are already there. But to go just for the shopping, a few years back when the winter prices were 11 euros a man and 11 for the car, and the gas price being low, then it was worth just to go fill the car up and buy booze.

“Decent points, but I was not contesting the fact that in some ways Finland uses protectionist policies, just the claim that Finland is the “most protectionist EU country by far.”

You are right, that is more difficult to prove. All states are protectionists to some extent, but I would say on a different level than in Finland. Two examples I can give:

1) Acquisition of the French energy company “Compagnie de Suez” by the Italian ENEL energy company. The French blocked the acquisition as Energy is seen as strategic area of economy. What they did is amazing: the state French company Gaz de France bought Compagnie de Suez. They did not have the money to do that as the participation of the state in the company was only 30% or something like that, anyway there was a law specifying a limit on the maximum allowed participation of the state in a private company.

The French government CHANGED the law in one week to allow a bigger participation of the state (!) so that Gaz de France could buy Compagnie de Suez.

2) for fairness, I give an example about Italy. Few weeks ago, the main telecommunications Italian company “Telecom” was on the market. The american AT&T made an offer, but the Italian government hampered the acquisition and convinced several Italian banks to raise up the money and buy Telecom.

All this for the same reason that strategic areas of economy “should” not fall on foreign hands. US is even more strict in respect of this policy, extremely protectionist on regards of anything connected with military and strategic defense.

On the other hand, this kind of protectionism is at much “higher level” than the one in Finland, where instead the effect of protectionism is much more visible to the Finnish consumer in terms of price impact (food, cars, etc).

If Finland is protectionistic about it’s food. Then why the spanish tomatos cost less than the Finnish counterparts? Shouldn’t it be the other way around for Finland to be protectionistic about it’s domestic produce?

“If Finland is protectionistic about it’s food. Then why the spanish tomatos cost less than the Finnish counterparts?

Produce is an anomaly; retailers can use ‘buyer psychology’:

1). Nationalism—buyers know that domestic produce supports a Finnish family directly;

2). Subsidies—buyers subsidize produce with tax money, so they expect a return on their ‘investment’ despite the higher prices;

3). Health—buyers might have rational/irrational fears about pesticides and chemicals used for preservatives to transport produce from abroad.

Supermarkets can use this ‘buyer psychology’ to their advantage for produce and a few other ‘national favorites.’ But, those are anomalies.

For many other things that are imported ( but not always) —e.g.-frozen pizza, prepared and semi-prepared food, jarred and boxed products, cheeses, pastries, etc.—you can add 30%-to-50% to the normal European market price. Add about double for many prepared foods.

Meat is expensive too, despite subsidies and Finland being a land with ample production resources. And what about the high price of fish?!

It might not always be about protecting domestic supplier industries per se. Instead, retailers will protect their own high prices using the geographic barrier effect (which limits Finns’ travel mobility).

Plus, they use a government that keeps-out competition (as Mikko mentioned in #24) and the Tax Wedge effect to their favor.

Not every single product they offer is severely overpriced. But there is enough overpricing to add a few-thousand € to the yearly shopping totals of individual and families.

#23

Most tunttiopettajat are qualified teachers who are conveniently not given enough hours to have a full-time job, saving the state a lot of money…

Those that don’t have qualifications are in large part under agreements with the institution to become qualified in a certain period of time…

Polytechnic teachers need to have a master’s degree (at least), and in order to sign a contract for over 6 months, they must be qualified teachers…

As for day care, I have heard qualification is lacking, but I don’t know much about it…

Polytechnic teachers need to have a master’s degree (at least), and in order to sign a contract for over 6 months, they must be qualified teachers…

Welcome to the wonderful world of pätkätyö…

Kristian:
I’d say that Finland’s alcohol policy is the main cause for Finland’s alcohol problem. Alcoholics should be steered toward cheap wine (3€/large jug) and beer (.35ct/.5L) like they are in Germany, not toward hard liquor like in Finland.

You bleeding-heart concern for the poor alcoholics is heart-warming indeed. Now, after applying some Nessu/Kleenex, we might remember that to be blessed with cheap piss-wine at 50c/litre, an alcoholic need only to stroll to the nearest store selling wine-making supplies. After half and our of work and a wait of about a month, they have a cellar full of that wonderful jug-wine that gets you pissed at no cost. If we further consider that this is legal while operating your own still is NOT, it might be argued that the alcoholics are indeed steered toward wine instead of hard liquor. But you’ve demonstrated an unwillingness to pay any attention to rational arguments in this matter, so I’ll leave it at that.

Dario:
Have you ever been in France or Italy? Typically in supermarkets of medium size you find hundreds of wines, mainly of the same nationality, but of all qualities.

In France and Italy there is a strong consumer demand for wines of all qualities. In Finland there is not.

I agree that in Alko you have a choice of wines from all the world, but there are wine cellars for that in Europe as well.

Excuse me if I don’t cheer the prospect of having to fly to “Europe” every time I want to buy a decent bottle of wine.

local Alko?!? There are only 300 Alko points in the WHOLE Finland and you think you can say it is a “local” shop?

In comparison, there are, I believe, 7 Stockmanns in Finland.

“In France and Italy there is a strong consumer demand for wines of all qualities. In Finland there is not.”

Oh, you mean ALL residents of Finland want to spend a few-thousand €uro on alcohol each year? Nobody in Finland wants to save money?

Kristian:

“It might not always be about protecting domestic supplier industries per se. Instead, retailers will protect their own high prices using the geographic barrier effect (which limits Finns’ travel mobility).”

“geographic barrier effect”, that’s a new one, haven’t heard that before? Wtf. does it mean? And how does it “limit Finns’ travel mobility”? And what does that mean?

First off, that is NOT protectionism (as that is government-driven). That is simply greed. I don’t think Lidl (whether or not it has been treated in any sense badly upon entrance) has provided much of an lesser amount of greed, since it’s prices do not seem much cheaper than those of its competitors. Especially if you’re looking for something else than the “bulk stuff” (which they do not even provide). What hinders them from providing the “german heavenly price level” you keep implying there is? Lidl, afaik, is as centralised as can be. Are you saying, that Lidl can’t be trusted to provide similar prices to finns, as germans, unless there are competitors providing similar prices. What does this tell us of Lidl. What does this tell us of “markets”. Most markets consist of the number of players we have in the “food market” today.

But you, who seem to think that a retailer (no, I’m not defending ANY surplus retailer profits) covering Finland with a FULL supply, has no added cost’s as compared to a retailer that covers a country of 20 times more consumers, spread out on an area double the size of Finland, has no NATURAL advantage in terms of pricing? This seems to have been your message week in, week out. Is this really what you believe?

And you call ME insane? Wake up.

Btw. Could you please provide YOUR examples of protectionism, since you implied Finland somehow exceeds in this, and I don’t think I saw any SENSIBLE explanations for your opinion, as of yet.

Kristian:
Oh, you mean ALL residents of Finland want to spend a few-thousand €uro on alcohol each year? Nobody in Finland wants to save money?

I really don’t know what you are talking about.

As you said yourself, every Finn is free to import a van full of booze every time they want from Estonia, if that is their wont.

Let’s see.

Rent of van: 50-80€
Ferry ticket: 70-100€

So the fixed cost would be, on average, around 150€ for each vanful. I think that’ll take care of several years of consumption for the average person, even if they only import that lovely jug wine.

(i have move for work i am operator) i live Finland already now 9 yer but after 5 yer i show the reality side by side.. horrible please because this is very racist country every thing under hardly controlled.. if you are foreigner you will see how credibly they can infect on you.every offices are very clever when they see you are foreigner, but its take really long time to understand how they do clever way.. believe me this is Well organized nightmare.do you believe it or not.,so no media freedom at all!!! most bad thing one crazy man bit me at work i was injured badly and to week i was in hospital i am belong to workers union called metalli,i was very surprise they did not do nothing about it and they say its only for Finnish origin people, but the have collect money from me 5 yer continuously every month. then i when to the court 2 time and it cost me over 10000 euros,(normally union use to pay it, but for me the say they don’t because i am non Finnish origin,also they force me that not to go court because biter was Finnish. this is real whats has happen to me i have all the document about the happening if some one are interesting i will send more info.. funniest thing is i Von the case in court and they pay me 100 euros (one hundred euro) for me for my damage, only my hospital Bil was many thousand euros. you can contact me if you interesting more about this i have all documents. hire is nothing free and every thing is very very expensive i wish not to get sick until i am back to my country. because hospital medicine are horrible expensive, and i have now big bank loan because i did not get any help from any wear for this bad trouble.and i have to do more work to pay my loan for may years. this my experience about this country.my e mail (sampspam@gmail.com)

This is most interesting things ever whats i have reed, from foreign minister of Finland.. according to Finnish foreign low mother is NOT blood relative..BELIEVE THIS OR NOT but it is reality of Finland . i have paper evidence say jest like this !!!