“I wonder if we dare get rid of the “World Peace” hideousity in Hakaniemi.” – Hank W.

What?

I have been liking Hakaniemi more and more for its “international” populace for years now. It is almost becoming my favorite neighborhood in the Helsinks. I like that the shop owners are foreigners, I like the market square, I like the Asian shops and the atmosphere in general. I especially like that there are no Unicef collecting hippies at every turn in Hakaniemi. I’d take the spurgut any day over them hippies in my face, trying to guilt me into donations.

The Russians say that the statue representing the fighting of fascism. Who are the fascists? The Estonians? The Nazis?

Also, the Finnish press has everyone in Finland believing that this had nothing to do with the statue at all, and that it’s some big conspiracy funded by the Kremlin. But I can’t find info about this anywhere else. What’s the deal?

Well the “World Peace” http://www.feto.fi/Kuvat/maailmanrauha.jpg
still looks like something that was misdelivered on its way to Pjonyang.
It looked slightly better tarred and feathered though.

Well, you’ll be happy to know the ban on the sale of alcohol was lifted in Estonia (as of yesterday). Drink and be merry.

Yes, but until 14.00 in the afternoon. Until the 6th that is apparently, and then there will be a few-day ban.

I’m actually surprised it isn’t going all the way through to the 9th. Not that I believe banning the sale of alcohol in stores will prevent Russians from getting drunk, anyway.

The U.S. media coverage over the “situation” in Estonia has been pathetic. Most of my friends and family only heard about the riots because I told them about it. Even NPR hasn’t had decent coverage.

The BBC, on the other hand, has been keeping on top of things: Estonian embassy blockade to end.

-> 3:

I don’t think I have ever seen it but it looks like it was transplanted from St.Petersburg.

Well, just to chime in on the actual subject (unlike my last two posts), I think the violence and riots had little to do with the statue and more to do with the displacement the Russkies feel there in Estonia.

The only people who I remember begging from me on my many visits since 1991 have been Russian speaking. Of course the begging has decreased over the years a lot, but the poorer the person seemed (especially in the early years of independence) the more likely he was speaking Russian.

Can anyone who lives there speak to this perception? Or was it my imagination?

Estonia seems to be somewhat similar to the South Africa just after apartheid. The blacks there could have beaten the shit out of whites for their sins but they chose wisely a different route. Of course there are still problems but it could be much worse, all-out civil war etc etc.

If you push people in minority too far and you will get IRA-type of terrorism. Putin “dictatorshiplike” administration used this to their domestic and international purposes but that is completely different matter.

One of the things that bothers me in all this is the calling of the protesters as ‘ethnic Russians’ like they are Estonian, which many are not. Some are Russian and the rest were abandoned by Russia when the Soviet Union fell apart. They refused to get Estonian Citizenship or even to integrate. I have been told that the Estonians have had enough and are now threatening the ‘ethinic Russians’ with deportation if they continue to riot.

“I wonder if we dare get rid of the “World Peace” hideousity in Hakaniemi.”
– I lived in Hakaniemi and I too enjoyed the area. However, that statue always bothered me and it is probably time that it gets either pushed into the sea or put in a museum. ‘World Peace’ my ass. The damn thing was a gift from the Soviet Union. that ight not mean much to the younger readers, which is all the more reason that the EU should unblock an investigation into the crimes of communism.

This brings me back to the Estonia statue. It was the Soviet Union that assisted the Nazis which enabled them to roll into Estonia. At the least it was their fault that they were kicked out of Estonia in the first place. (Which is a story in itself.)

Offtopic, vodka tourists of today.
Just recently I heard from my russian friend who are the vodka tourists in nowadays.
Let’s assume that a tourist bus takes 42 passengers. A russian tour organizer buys 84 bottles of vodka, legal 2 per tourist, packs them in the bus along russian tourists who are seeking a cheap shopping trip to Finland. Once over the border, the tour leader gets profit of the vodka from his regular wholesale buyer, who gets profit sellig it forward, who gets a little cheaper booze than from Alko, passengers get a cheap trip to Prisma or Anttila, those will gain more customers, not to mention the restaurants etc.
This is a perfect win – win situation, well, except for the taxman.

By the way, we have a Lenin -statue in Kotka.

Also, the Finnish press has everyone in Finland believing that this had nothing to do with the statue at all, and that it’s some big conspiracy funded by the Kremlin. But I can’t find info about this anywhere else. What’s the deal?

I think the deal is, that there are essentially two different views on history: For Estonians, the bronze statue represents Soviet totalitarian regime, with all the suffering, mass deportations and other barbarism. For Russians, it represents the victory in Great Patriotic War, defeating the Nazis and liberating Estonia. So there we have two fundamentally opposite views on the issue.

The Kremlin support the riots, because it helps to draw support from the many nationalists in Russia, who still miss the old days of grandeur.

Well, I live here.

Here’s my (biased) blow by blow.

* Last May, during the May 9 celebrations in Tallinn, rightwing nationalists (including some skinheads) reacted negatively to people waving USSR flags at said Bronze Soldier memorial. A scuffle broke out and it made everyone nervous.

* In following months said memorial was the sight of repeated scuffles and vandalism. The rightwing nationalists vowed to blow it up. The site is also the grave of 12 Red Army soldiers, and the prime minister said that it was time to move this memorial to a military cemetery where it wouldn’t be the site of scuffles, vandalism, and agitation — it’s located next to the Estonian National Library.

* The Russian Foreign Ministry said it opposed the removal because it would mean that Estonia is celebrating Nazism by moving a monument to a cemetery. The Russian state-owned media outlets covered this issue on a daily basis for nearly 12 months.

* Prime Minister Andrus Ansip was reelected in March with the highest votes ever for a candidate in Estonia. He took this to mean that people endorsed his plans, including the one for the controversial memorial. His government was sworn in in early April and work on removing the statue commenced on April 26.

* The Russian foreign ministry warned Estonia of “irreversible consequences” in relations if they moved the statue and its graves to a military cemetery.

* On April 26 a crowd of thousands of Tallinn teenagers circled the park where the statue is located and began scuffling with riot police who eventually drove them back using foam sprays and a water cannon. These youths dispersed and subsequently vandalized and looted most of the shops along Pärnu maantee — a major avenue. There were 99 incidents of vandalism, 153 people were injured, one man was stabbed to death by another rioter, and there were 1,000 arrests in the following two days.

* In Narva and Jõhvi there were also reports of violence on the night of the 27th. Since then there have been no outbreaks of serious violence here.

* In Moscow, the Putin jugend “Nashi” (ours) harassed the Estonian embassy, including physically confronting the Estonian ambassador at a press conference and attacking her car. Rocks were also thrown at the Estonian embassy’s windows and its flag was ripped down. Also attacked was the Swedish ambassador to Russia, whose car was also mobbed and whose flag was ripped from it.

At that point it became an international issue. After voices of support from the EU, NATO, and the US, the Estonian ambassador decided to go on vacation for two weeks and the Putin jugend dispersed from the site.

Meanwhile, Russia decided to halt oil transit in and out of Estonia, stating that the tracks were badly in need of repairs.

And so, after all that nonsense, the memorial was reopened on April 30th in Tallinn at the new site, and looks pretty good where it is, I would say better than where it was before.

The graves were exhumed from under the nearby tramstop where they had sat for 60 years and will be reburied in a cemetery with honors in June.

As for discrimination in Estonia, Estonia inherited thousands of industrial workers from the Soviet economy who were hit quite hard by the collapse of the Soviet system. This puts them at a great disadvantage economically.

As for linguistic realities, most of Estonia (69 percent) is ethincally Estonian and most people in Estonia can speak Estonian either as a native language or as a second language (at least 85 percent).

There are segments of the Estonian society that do not wish to learn Estonian and so therefore remain at an economic disadvantage. It’s a vicious cycle of expecting everyone to compensate for their lack of Estonian skills. But the reality is how is a state supposed to function where most people speak one language and the others refuse to speak it? How do you have an army platoon where 12 guys speak Estonian and 3 guys refuse to speak it?

Some of the state’s policies have not helped. But doing nothing about the situation wouldn’t help either.

The bottomline is that it is in everyone’s interest that Estonia succeeds. Because the last time Estonia was attacked by Russia in 1940, it also meant an attack on Finland, and it meant thousands of refugees crammed into tiny boats washing up on the shores of Sweden.

“Some are Russian and the rest were abandoned by Russia when the Soviet Union fell apart.”

So according to you blacks should kick all the whites out from South Africa back to (mainly) Netherlands and UK? They got even more reasons to do that than Estonians, whites there practically tortured them for decades. One other example, does “America for Americans” ring a bell? Irish immigrants were not welcomed in the 19th century by so called “native” Americans…

Those Russians in Estonia have lived all their lifes in Estonia and most of them does not have any relationship to Russia other than language. Even if they do, so what.

# 14.
Let’s replace some words

There are segments of the Finnish society(Swedes) that do not wish to learn Finnish and so therefore remain at an economic disadvantage. It’s a vicious cycle of expecting everyone to compensate for their lack of Finnish skills. But the reality is how is a state supposed to function where most people speak one language and the others refuse to speak it?

Yeah, but the Finnish-Swedes don’t wave Swedish flags on holidays.

#15
Those Russians in Estonia have lived all their lifes in Estonia and most of them does not have any relationship to Russia other than language. Even if they do, so what

Exactly. To those who has trouble modeling the situation, I’ll try to give a bad analogy – let’s assume that from 1.6.2007 Swedish is not anymore one of the official languages in Finland. Plus you can give now finnish citizenship only after language exam. All swedish speaking finns are getting “alien” passport (old finnish citizenship revoked). If you want to be a finn – learn finnish and apply for citizenship etc. If you don’t – go West to Göteborg. Who cares if your parents and yourself were born here?

So major part of russian-speaking population already lived in Estonia when it regained independence. It’s not like a lot of people are migrating there from Moscow and demanding some extra privilege.

15

Thats exactly what happened in say Kenia. Or look at Uganda. Now the whites in South Africa have been there for generations, not like they were dropped in all of a sudden while you deported the local population some 60 years ago. The Estonian-Swedes were more or less decimated 60 years ago, you think they appreciated the “population change”? Its one thing to maintain your language and culture, its another thing to maintain your imperialistic past.

#17
Hank, would anyone mind?

“Yeah, but the Finnish-Swedes don’t wave Swedish flags on holidays.”

Yes they do, they are just closet flaggers.

#18 I’d say you would find only a few % of Finland-Swedes unable to pass a Finnish test. More failures in the obligatory Swedish test.

#22

Hank, that’s why they call it an analogy I don’t ask you to accept my opinion, but I hope you understand my point.

Well the facts are the following:

* Estonia was established in 1918
* In 1944 its government went into exile
* The Soviet occupation of Estonia was never recognized in the West
* Estonian citizenship de sanguinis existed from 1944-1991

Now, those people who moved to Estonia during that time were citizens of the Soviet Union, an entity that no longer exists.

However, the Russian Federation is its successor state. Therefore, all 125,000 (9 percent of population) stateless persons de facto have a right to Russian citizenship. Russia has done little to end this statelessness in Estonia.

By the way, what is the case with those Swedes in Finland that don’t know Finnish? Can you really get a job at a supermarket in Helsinki if you don’t know Finnish? Is that discrimination?

Also, weren’t Swedes in Finland for about 1,000 years, while Russian speakers were there since the 1950s? Does that mean that every time a large minority moves into a country, the country must change its state languages? If so, why is Turkish not a state language in Germany? And why are those racist Germans requesting that immigrants pass a language test?

F-Swedes have a different position in Finnish society than Russians in Estonia. And F-Swedes who can’t speak Finnish mainly live in rural parts. It’s not a great analogy, but nice try

If I were a Russian living in Estonia, I would learn English as a second language before Estonian. That would probably be safest for everyone.

Let’s already discuss more fruitful topic
“Most men married women from Russia, Thailand or Estonia. Finnish women tended to marry men from Britain, the United States and Turkey.”

#17 – Would anyone mind?

Only if they insisted thet Finnish interior politics were dictated in Stockholm.

#23

Actually the analogy is that Helsinki is nowadays full of Savo-speaking newcomers, but still no rioting Swedes on the streets . Maybe pakkoruotsi and pakkosuomi wasn’t such a bad idea after all.

As for the statue in Hakaniemi, I don’t understand why we should get rid of it. It’s an excellent reminder of the dangers of sucking up too much to a declining superpower.

I can only answer by quoting Scott Adams
“Let me explain something about analogies. Analogies are not supposed to be identical to the thing you are making the analogy about. Imperfection is necessary. Otherwise an analogy would be, for example, “Downloading music without paying is like downloading music without paying.” It doesn’t add much to your understanding.”

#27 — ha ha! The Russian Duma delegation told the Estonian government it should resign. What a bunch of maroons!

Look, this is an Estonian matter. Estonia will work it out and it mostly has (32 % stateless in 1992, 9 percent stateless in 2006). Let democracy work. If Russian-speaking Estonians feel they are discriminated against, then let them organize and march and put together petitions and do things democratically.

Many of those that I know are also *against* the idea of making Russian a state language or just giving away citizenship. It’s not as black and white as you might think.

In the meantime, make fun of Russia, because it’s just too easy.

“Also, weren’t Swedes in Finland for about 1,000 years, while Russian speakers were there since the 1950s?”

Estonians are not somekind of pure “race”, they are as mixed as Finns genetically and also languagewise, both from east and west. Soviet Union was an exception that stopped the mixing process. There will be sizable Russian speaking minority in Finland and maybe even in Sweden too within few decades.

The simple fact is that Russia and the Soviet Union are to blame for this bullshit going on in the first place. This statue, placed in a sovereign nation that was illegally invaded and ruled, represents oppression, hardship and racism to the Estonians. Just as the Confederate flag in America represents oppression, hardship and racism. If the ethnic Russian community in Estonia feels abandoned and despises Russia then they need to speak up instead of letting a few mouthy thugs, yearning for the old days of Mother Russia, speak for them.

OTOH, it would have been nice to hear the EU and Finland bitch more about the way Russia is handling this situation. Then again, everyone is being diplomatic for the sake of Russian energy exports. because we all know too well what happens when you speak up against something that Russia is doing. See Belarus, Ukraine, Georgia and a few others for details.

#31 You are very correct. Estonia has been multiethnic for centuries. But I am an American and I moved here and I have been able to get by in this language. That’s all I can say. I accepted that most people speak it and so I don’t have any problems buying food or bus tickets.

But what does that have to do with anything? Most of the people that ransacked Tallinn last week were citizens of this country. Yet they called the democratically elected government “fascist” and unveiled signs reading “CCCP Forever.” I didn’t feel bad for them when they got hit by the water cannon.

If you are like me and you have a family, you value peaceful resolutions to conflict. No matter how many issues exist in civil society, you hope that they can be resolved peacefully.

The government decided to move a controversial memorial to a military cemetery. Given Estonia’s history I am surprised it wasn’t blown up. That’s what the IRA did to British memorials in Ireland. Not recommendable, but 100 percent a European problem, as European as Estonia.

So what’s the big deal other than scoring points? It was an internal Estonian affair. And now Russia is seeking an apology. They are totally nuts, those boys in the Kremlin.

[i]Also, the Finnish press has everyone in Finland believing that this had nothing to do with the statue at all, and that it’s some big conspiracy funded by the Kremlin.[/i]

Well, Phil, it seemed so. Not the demonstaration against the statue in Estonia, but the backlashh in Moscow. The Russian nazis, the nationalistic Natsa – movement – got their press coverage (look for upcoming elections);: the Russian Duma could make a few nationalistic moves (like sending a delegation to ask a soverigne countrys government to resign ) but most importantly, teh EU-Russia top meeting is coming up, so the word is the Russians were kicking the hornets nest to see how the EU would react.

Well, certainly very ugly memories were awakened by this crisis – Estonia barely survived a cultural and even physical holocaust due to the Soviet occupation, so it is very understandable that such monuments and celebrations of the said holocaust touch a nerve. Surely, even so the Estonian government made mistakes and aggravated things needlessly. But most of the blame absolutely lies with the Kremlin and its cynical and scary aggression and propaganda. Below my slightly longer take on the isssue:

http://stockholmslender.blogspot.com/2007/05/stalins-willing-executioners-pro.html

The damn thing was a gift from the Soviet Union. that ight not mean much to the younger readers, which is all the more reason that the EU should unblock an investigation into the crimes of communism.

We learn all about the baddie commies at school and at home. Communism is a curse word in Finland too, most of the time.

If we’re going to relocate this “World Peace” statue to the museum then surely we should get rid of the Czarish statues too. Actually, come to think of it the Mannerheim statue near Kiasma always reminds me of the ugly ultra-nationalism and skinheads in Finland, why not relocate that too? A lot of blood has been shed for all kinds of things in the course of history.

I think it’s a decision between displaying history in the public places or art. Anything but more space for ads, please.

Hmm. Maybe I should stress that the Mannerheim bit in my previous comment was irony. Before someone pulls a pea in their nose.

Well, I must confess that to me “Lenin Park” in Alppila sounds excactly like Himmler Park would sound… We rightly abhor the Nazi system, why not then the system Stalin and Lenin established that did actually get even more people killed? I think it is absurd to argue which ideology was worse, they are so awful as to make all distinctions insignifant. Though I would say that the Soviet terror system certainly seems more dangerous as its victims mostly are now forgotten and the hammer and sickle is a trendy fashion statement these day – certainly unlike the swastika.

Well, I must confess that to me “Lenin Park” in Alppila sounds excactly like Himmler Park would sound… We rightly abhor the Nazi system, why not then the system Stalin and Lenin established that did actually get even more people killed?

Exactly. I just hope that will change during the next decades, when the old stalinists have kicked the bucket. I’m not too optimistic though.

I am not so sure that communism is an ugly word in Finland. I have been reminded a couple times to tone down my comments about the Soviet Union while there ‘because many people here supported the Soviet Union’ and that I might hurt their feelsing.

this is not an old issue either. Take Tampere. Mannerheim’s statue was stuck in the forest and some park in the city was named after the Red ‘defender’ of the city just a couple a years ago. Who pushed the naming issue? Taavi Lintunen, a communist member of the Government.

Väyrynen and Kanerva are back and the next thing we know is Russians doing the “nightfrost government” (yöpakkashallitus) on Estonians. We are only short of learning Kekkonen being alive and well + having been secretly in control for all these years from the sauna of Tamminiemi. Just like the bad old C3P days.

If this was just about some statue, it would escape all reason. One word from Kremlin and the Putin jugend would have been back home. Estonians did the transfer in dignified manner and the military graveyard is perfectly honorable place for the statue. Before further jesusing around, the russians could check, what they did with the finnish graves in Karelia. Tombstones make nice stairs and walkways.

I bet they have been pissed off about the recent developments with missile shields etc. coming to their backyard and put a hedgehog in west’s pants. I’m afraid the russian poet quoted in HS mocking Estonia is right. Pskov is just 1 day march away and the EU would sell their granny for one m3 of gas. If things go really ugly, we’ll have to check the writing on Suomenlinna gate (Not the ‘Break on through to the other side’ graffiti)

“…Take Tampere…”

I think Tamperer’s attitude is more about “The South shall rise again” style defiance, than communism. After the mess it was, even the Christ himself in place of Mannerheim would have been the bloody mulquist, who had the granpa and granma shot.

Considering Estonia is a member of NATO, I’d be very wary of them tanks…

Just another reason for Finland to join NATO. When you’re next to a crazy country like Russia, it’s insane not to consider joining NATO. Those people opposed to joining NATO in this country is like saying “If your husband threatens to kill you, don’t call the police!”. We should join NATO now before Russia becomes even more richer, and then before we know it, it’ll be Finlandisation all over again and too late to join NATO. Wheee!!

This statue, placed in a sovereign nation that was illegally invaded and ruled, represents oppression, hardship and racism to the Estonians. Just as the Confederate flag in America represents oppression, hardship and racism.

a la the stars and stipes today in other parts of the world..

44. “Just another reason for Finland to join NATO. When you’re next to a crazy country like Russia, it’s insane not to consider joining NATO.”

How about Russia joins NATO just because they are next to a bunch of crazy expats and bored Finns?

“Just another reason for Finland to join NATO”

Fuck it. We are borderline people, between east and west and we like it. You just have to outsmart or outdrink the Russians once in a while like Mr. President Kekkonen did when Soviets proposed those “Joint Military Exercises” back in the 50,60,70′s.

Every time that happened, Kekkonen did go to Moscow and outdrink/outsmart those hardcore Russians and all of sudden everything was back to normal. Russsians always like to play a little bit chess with their friends and enemies alike…

Or is Mr. Dubya any better? Spreading his democraZy in the Middle East with no plan whatsoever. Fucked up little Texas frat-boy idiot. All hat no cattle.

What we should do instead, is to strengthen the EU defense forces by forming a unified naval forces with Sweden, for starters.

Now then again if we had gotten “Karelia back” in 1956, or in 1994… in 1956 it would still have been empty, in 1994 we’d been having a similar minority problerm.

I was very pleasantly surprised by Ilkka Kanerva and the Finnish government’s reaction to this matter (admitedly the first reaction, from Vanhanen, was a bit wobbly). We are absolutely right to support Estonia in this matter, Russia has no business antagonising relations between the main community and the Russian minority there and even less right to state that the Estonian government ought to resign.

I do think that the wider EU, in particular the current German presidency, was far too slow to react.

Tim, nr 21, Finland-Swedes are not closet or non-closet Swedish flag wavers. It is as much a foreign flag to us as to any other Finn. In fact, sometimes you will even see Finland-Swedes writing letters to Husis complaining about Finland-based websites that insist on one having to click on the Swedish flag for the Swedish language version. The argument being why should we have to click on a foreign flag to reach the section in our language. Would be a bit strange if all US-based websites had a UK flag for the English section as an analogy.

“BBC, on the other hand, has been keeping on top of things:”

Huh, have they had one person in Iraq covering, lets just pick one good story… wait can’t do that, its no PC for the BBC to cover good stories like:

”
Ah yes, just 7 months ago Al Anbar was “lost.”

Amidst my travels to neighborhood watch centers and police stations where local Sunni Muslims who have porn on their cell phones are playing hard ball against AQIZ types who would ban porn on cell phones I forgot all about this article in the WaPo last September.

Anbar is so “lost” now politically that there is a waiting list for anbaris to join the IA and IP.

It is so lost, that in the AO I hope to visit next the local Sheiks have declared war on AQIZ and the neighboring tribe supporting AQIZ.

It is so lost, the local neighborhood watch centers deliver captured IEDs to Marine Combat Outposts.

It is so wildly stinking lost that…wait, it is not lost.

In fact, the situation has flipped so much in 7 months that the heavy lifting in Al Anbar may be coming to a close–the heavy lifting being the political work of flipping the tribes to support the coalition and take charge of their own security. ”

Hint, you do not get good news stories from the left wing (They said it, not me) BBC.

So PLEASE, do not say the BBC is on top of things. Well, on top of PC corrects stuff, I will take that one.

For me it fells like back in 1991, al senses try to get every inch of information. I will relax when 9. th of May is done. There are too many scary emails and sms messages flouting through the internet in Estonia.

According to Sveriges TV, the Russians are erecting a statue dedicated to Estonian “antifacists” on their border with Estonia.

Also it seems that a boycott has began of some Valio products made in Estonia.

Let’s hope that 8 and 9 May go off without any more rioting in Estonia. 9 May of course being the Russian “Victory Day” marking the end of WW2.