A “strong tone of voice” is putting it likely, Phil. It seemed all he wanted to do was disagree with anyone and everyone. Many times after reading his insulting, repetetive posts on here and your old forums, I thought to myself “what a tool.”

I wonder if someday one can be fined for being a tool? Not a “tool of fascists” or a “tool of racist hate mongering,” but just a “tool.”

If so, he would have been fined long ago.

Whoops… that should read “putting it lightly, Phil.”

Susan Kuronen should be fined as well. Her recent pictures make me feel violently ill.

Ellilä is annoying, but freedom of speech doesn’t mean that only inoffensive people with sensible and reality-based views are free to express themselves. His anti-Islam screeds have done rather less to spread islamophobia than the actions of various Muslim brainiacs.
Kenneth is right to point out the police have to do the investigation. In a less politically loaded case, if they thought it was a complete waste of time, they might bin the paperwork the minute the person making the charge was out the door.

I don’t know what he said that pissed the Finnish authorities off so much

The Finnish authorities hardly have been pissed off. But in Finland we have this thing called reilu mei… sorry, the rule of law. The police has to investigate when somebody asks.

Ellilä is … how should I put this mildly … a hate mongerer. Neekerit and rättipäät are just the way you like them – gone.

Let’s keep thumbs up for this sananvapauden esitaistelija!

His anti-Islam screeds

He hates niggers too.

I went and read a couple of his posts. They were cute.

I won’t raise my voice if they will give him a small fine. If that’s against freedom of speech, or a buzzword like that, then so be it.

“I’m just waiting for the day when criticizing the welfare state ideology becomes a crime, cause I reckon that day is coming soon.”

Oh come on. Please tell me you weren’t serious with this one. You will be free to criticize the welfare state all you want now and tommorow but do make sure you don’t do it Finnpundit style (Slaughtering Finns and what not to stop the evil welfare state troll)

Having said that; I believe that this fucking PC stuff has gone overboard, everybody is affraid to say anything controversial because it might hurt somebodies feelings. As far as I am concerned you can say what ever you want as long as it doesn’t included rallying people to violence against another group of people (be it religion, colour of your skin, political idea etc.)

So, I guess it’s only a matter of time before Finland adopts Germany’s “Holocaust Denier” law?

Somebody reported him and the police was required by law to “start an investigation”. Remains to be seen how much of an effort they put into it. In the end it means some never-heard-of blogger like Ellilä gets a little undeserved publicity.

“I’m just waiting for the day when criticizing the welfare state ideology becomes a crime, cause I reckon that day is coming soon.”

That’s right – nothing stirs up inter-societal hatred like the discussion of the role of public-private partnerships in a service based modern economy. Its amazing we banned racist and religious hate-speech first when you think about it…

En kommentoi yllä esitettyjä typeriä solvauksia, joissa ei ole mitään relevanttia asiasisältöä.

Täytyy panna Aapon nimi ja nettiosoite (http://aapocalypsenow.blogspot.com/) muistiin. Totalitarismia puolusteleva roskaväki ryömii esiin koloistaan juuri tällaisissa tilanteissa. Sama ilmiö nähtiin mm. Kaltio-lehden tapauksen yhteydessä.

Philin tekstistä:

“Mikko sometimes comments here on Finland for Thought, often on posts involving immigration. He considers himself a liberal, and I believe he is (was?) quite active in the Finnish Liberal Party.”

En ole koskaan ollut ko. puolueen jäsen. Olen muutamia kertoja käynyt heidän keskustelutilaisuuksissaan, ehkä 5 kertaa viimeisen 5 vuoden aikana. Tätä ei voi pitää kovin aktiivisena toimimisena ko. puolueessa.

“I’ve always wondered how a self-proclaimed “liberal” could be so against immigration, traditionally liberals are very pro-immigration. But certainly liberalism isn’t a one-size-fits-all ideology”

En pyri perustelemaan maahanmuuton rajoittamista ensisijaisesti liberalismin pohjalta, mutta esim. muslimien massiivinen maahanmuutto johtaa liberaalien arvojen totaaliseen tuhoutumiseen yhteiskunnan muuttuessa islamilaiseksi diktatuuriksi.

Euroopassa on jo nyt kymmeniä miljoonia muslimeja. Kun niitä tulee vielä vähän lisää, Eurooppa muuttuu Iranin kaltaiseksi teokraattiseksi diktatuuriksi. Tämä ei ole sellainen kehityskulku, jota liberaalit pitäisivät toivottavana.

Muslimien ei tarvitse saavuttaa enemmistöä yhdessäkään Euroopan maassa tullakseen valtaan. Muslimit voivat terrorismin ym. painostuksen voimalla tulla valtaan jo silloin, kun heitä on esim. 10%-20% väestöstä. Jo nykyisin islamin kritisointi on käytännössä onnistuttu tukahduttamaan nimenomaan terrorismilla, kuten käy ilmi mm. Muhammad-pilapiirroskiistasta, Kaltio-lehden jupakasta ja minua koskevasta ajatuspoliisin tutkinnasta. Poliitikot ja viranomaiset palvelevat islamilaisia terroristeja toteuttamalla nimenomaan terroristien vaatimuksien mukaista sensuuria.

“- and he should have every legal right to criticize religion and immigration, even if people like me don’t agree with him on these subjects.”

Voisimme järjestää tästä keskusteluohjelman esim. ensi viikonloppuna. Lähetän asiasta meiliä blogini serverin omistajalle Prodokselle, joka jo pyysi minua nettiradio-ohjelmaansa. Voisi olla hyvä järjestää Skypen kautta keskustelu, johon osallistuisivat esim. minä, sinä, Prodos ja Kenneth Sigorsky.

I agree with Kronos #9. But the need to be PC is not so relevant for some people with a religion, or who belong to some (pref. minority) ethnic group. They get away with their sometimes freaky and violent opinions.

I guess that was not so PC of me to say… Screw it!

Täytyy panna Aapon nimi ja nettiosoite (http://aapocalypsenow.blogspot.com/) muistiin. Totalitarismia puolusteleva roskaväki ryömii esiin koloistaan juuri tällaisissa tilanteissa. Sama ilmiö nähtiin mm. Kaltio-lehden tapauksen yhteydessä.

Pane ihmeessä. Sukunimi on Markkanen.

Euroopassa on jo nyt kymmeniä miljoonia muslimeja. Kun niitä tulee vielä vähän lisää, Eurooppa muuttuu Iranin kaltaiseksi teokraattiseksi diktatuuriksi. Tämä ei ole sellainen kehityskulku, jota liberaalit pitäisivät toivottavana.

Euroopassa on myös alhainen syntyvyys, negatiivisiksi kääntyvät huoltosuhteet, kestämättömät PAYGO-eläkejärjestelmät ja useimmissa maissa aivan liikaa julkista velkaa. Toivottavaa?

Well, don’t tell Freedom House – they ranked Finland first in the world for press freedom. Anyway, this guy is as unpleasant as they come, but surely he should be allowed his ignorant hatemongering, unless you can really construe that it actually does incite to violence. That I guess is not allowed in the US either? I doubt though if he really would be guilty of that, of being braindead, yes, but that’s not a crime even for libertarians.

Phil: “I’ve always wondered how a self-proclaimed “liberal” could be so against immigration, traditionally liberals are very pro-immigration.”

That partly depends on whether a liberal sees benefit from immigration or not. If a certain type of immigrant is seen as a welfare sponge, then obviously a liberal wouldn’t be supportive.

There’s also the cultural aspect; one can be economically liberal yet reject dilution of one’s own culture. To state otherwise would suggest that liberals are willing to prostitute their personal values for the sake of liberalism.

Hence, liberalism and immigration can be mutually exclusive. There’s no reason to accept immigration just because one is an economic liberal.

I support freedom of speech in all cases except for inciting violence. Also, I think Germany and Austria should revise their laws regarding freedom of speech.

Aapo Markkanen:
“Euroopassa on myös alhainen syntyvyys, negatiivisiksi kääntyvät huoltosuhteet, kestämättömät PAYGO-eläkejärjestelmät ja useimmissa maissa aivan liikaa julkista velkaa. Toivottavaa?”

Väestön ikääntyminen argumenttina maahanmuuton puolesta
http://mikkoellila.thinkertothinker.com/?p=63

#16: I was about to say something about that freedom of the press thing, too. We’re supposed to be number one and then this happens??

Kristian:
I support freedom of speech in all cases except for inciting violence.

In Ellilä’s posts there are quite a few thinly veiled incitements of violence. The quote from La Marseillaise is most revealing.

In any case, Ellilä’s Muslim-bashing is a fairly recent development. He aims to insult everyone and their dog, probably to fulfill some masochistic fantasy. He most likely secretly dreams of being locked in a cell with a 7′ black man. His 15 minutes are up, move along now.

“I was about to say something about that freedom of the press thing, too. We’re supposed to be number one and then this happens?”

Has happened many times. It’s only investigation, nothing has come of it yet. Remember the Mohammed cartoons published by SISU?
It also spawned an investigation but prosecutors didn’t raise charges.

Well it’s probably just a fundamentalist vs another fundamentalist and the police are working as a middle piece.

I believe it’s time for me to weigh in on the subject, since a large portion of my own blog deals with the very same issues on a weekly basis. As with the Danish Mohamed cartoon brouhaha, the issue over free speech is once again thrust into the forefront, but I maintain that free speech like Islamic terrorism it is not “the central issue” at stake here, both being but a by-product of a larger conflict.

What is at stake is the destructive ideology of a puritanical offshoot in Islam (both Sunni and Shi’ia), that is at complete odds with a modern day society and its value systems. The two divergent faiths in Islam, though at ideological odds with the other, share the same fanatical utopian dream of an united ummah (the house of Islam) but under their own perspective banners of Islam.

The adherents to Islam in the modern age, can be divided amongst the four or more groups whose ways differ in the understanding their faith. On one end we have

1.) The Islamist Extremists who believe that their interpretation of an ancient puritanical version of Islam invalidates all other versions of Islam, and are willing to fund/support international jihad or take part in the fighting themselves, or both, in order to achieve final victory. Then there are

2.) Islamists, who believe as do the Extremists in a utopian version of Islam, though they do not physically take part in the violence, they are however as supportive of the Extremists efforts as the Extremists themselves. They may speak out of both sides of their mouths to the non-Muslim or to other Muslims they do not trust, and yet preach that philosophically the Extremists are correct in taking the fight to the unbeliever.

3.) The average faithful Muslim who practices his/her faith as they are thought in the mosque, got to work, pay their taxes and lead ordinary lives.

4.) Secular Muslims, such as were seen in the streets of Istanbul protesting the potential rise of an Islamist president.

5.) Modernist Muslims, though the secular and modernist can be somewhat an interchangeable term, but the modernist cares for the direction of Islam within the modern world, while the secularist cares more for his/her own personal well being within the modern world, with little thought going towards religion.

Both the Modernist Muslims and Islamist/Islamist Extremist Muslims are aiming for the majority of the Islamic world which belong to group (3.), with both the Islamist Shi’ia and Sunni factions both working together as well as competing against each other depending on the situation. Iran is indeed helping Al-Qaida kill Shi’ia inside Iraq. When it comes to martyrdom, each side use their own regardless of the consequences, to each faction death is victory including their own.

The inability of western intellectuals/academy, politicians and the media and the police to discern the difference between the Islamists’ and their agendas from the Moderates (I favor the term Modernist) only helps to obfuscate the truer issues at hand while making it extremely difficult for the Modernists to be effective in changing the course of Islam for the future.

Lets face it, if Islam was as modern as the majority of Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism ect., we would not be arguing over the danger Islam poses to western ideals. That this religion of over one billion adherents whose numbers are in the hundreds of millions that long for the return of sharia (islamic law) in the present day, is troubling and dangerous. That any criticism of the Islamic religion and their prophet brings call for death and destruction is reason why there is such timidity in the west to “step up to the plate”.

Mikko Ellilä’s criticisms of Islam and Muslims are well placed, though I can’t lay a blanket ascertion that all MUslims are dangerous, just the ones I mentioned, as well as the ones who can be easily influneced due to their trust in the Imam or scholar, for they are the ones who set the tone for the rest of their community. Modernist Muslim must be encouraged and supported wherever they may be, they are the only hope for the future.

Oh yes, Mikko Ellilä was this idiot who likes to argue with english speakers in finnish so they can’t reply. I thought the name rang a bell. I have no sympathy at all.

On a more general note, I don’t like this hate speech law one bit. Finland is ranked number one in the freedom of press? Why exactly is Finland more free than, say Denmark? Danish papers were at least allowed to print drawings of Muhammed. Is this one of those studies they conducted by asking the citizens how free they think their press is?

I think that this discussion should be held if the Political Correctness “goes way overboard”. I’m personally not very positive towards immigration and think that freedom of speech is one of the most important things (if not the most important thing) in democratic societies but this issue is under investigation which doesn’t mean that the authorities haven’t given Ellilä right nor wrong and he’s, as far as I’m concerned, free to continue writing as much as he wants about whatever he wants during the investigation.
If he however is prosecuted because of this then I will really start worrying.
The limit of freedom of speech, to me, goes when one starts calling for murder, genocide, violent actions etc. against other people.

#23 “we would not be arguing over the danger Islam poses to western ideals”
We’re not, you are.

Here is a post by Punter that may well shock a few but I too am ashamed to hear of opinions like Ellilä’s even being mentioned on this site. He is a nothing. A weak racist twit that has no security in himself or his own culture and thus feels so threatened by anything “different.” May I suggest he and his 5 followers pick up their sausage and beer and drag their red necks to the middle of a forest and live in their own little paradise. They will probably find creatures there more close to themselves (if they look in trees or under rocks)
That said, I do agree that everyone has a right to express themselves andd this right is sacred. Only if it incites violence should it be investigated.

26″A weak racist twit that has no security in himself or his own culture and thus feels so threatened by anything “different.”

You are obvliously more well informed than the rest of us about Islamism, please Punter, tell us why there is nothing to alarmed about. Just what makes a puritanical interpretation of Islam compatable with today’s modern society? Why would sharia ever be “a good thing” to have any pluralistic society or otherwise?

And you tell me why are you so convinced they want to bring it here? I think they are a little more concerned at the moment with the goings on in The Holy Land and a small thing in Palestine. I hardly see a group of Islamists being interested in bringing Sharia Law here to Finland. Grow up.

Historically speaking, the Muslims in Europe have behaved much more civilisedly than for example the Catholic church has. As an example, when Al-Hambra fell and Islam was driven out of Iberia, the inquisition started to persecute Jews – who then fled to Bosnia, where they were welcomed by the Ottoman Turks and treated largely as respectable citizens. Just compare to how it was in pogromised parts of Europe.

And oh well, then came finally the Holocaust and the most effective crusade the world has ever known.

The part that disturbs me about this is the immediate assumption that anyone suffering from “freedom of speech” restrictions is automatically judged to be The Good Guy by the blogosphere. While, in this case, idiocy does not necessarily qualify one for prosecution, we can’t assume that freedom of speech is a black and white issue. (If it were, then we’d have no recourse against spammers, who are after all exercising their Freedom of Speech Rights, Protected By The Very Wise Blogosphere).

That partly depends on whether a liberal sees benefit from immigration or not. If a certain type of immigrant is seen as a welfare sponge, then obviously a liberal wouldn’t be supportive.

Then the problem is not with the immigrant, but with the welfare system.

“Don’t hate the playa, hate the game”

Oh, I’m annoyed by the same thing too: now he gets to be this big martyr suffering for his noble, misunderstood ideals… But that’s why I would not prosecute these things unless there really is actual incitement to actual violence. Anyway, this thread will probably be now hijacked for this anti-Islam thing – I find this sort of primitive black and white labelling of one billion people and a global religion with a near infinite number of local interpretations slightly silly, and, unfortunately often, sinister. Anyway, more of my not so novel musings below:

http://stockholmslender.blogspot.com/2007/03/myriad-ways-of-islam.html

Dear me, his blog is slightly on the monomaniac side, and, unsurprisingly, not much thought involved in the process, but I couldn’t find any incitement to violence, unless one counts the Marseillase. I guess it is quite a bloodthirsty song really, but we can hardly arrest Jacques Chirac every time when he comes to a state visit – or the band. It surely is legitimite to oppose immigration based on religious identification, silly and nasty maybe, but it is definitely not against the law.

So did this guy (Mikko E) commented here earlier in english or in finnish? Why he is making comments here in finnish? What are the different possible reasons?

“if Islam was as modern as the majority of Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism ect.”

Side note: Buddhism has nothing do to with the three abrahamic religions. It simply does not belong in the same group at all even Hinduism is closer and still far away.

mh: “Is this one of those studies they conducted by asking the citizens how free they think their press is?”

You mean how they asked people about their level of happiness in the “Happiness Survey?” LOL!

Ontario Emperor: “we can’t assume that freedom of speech is a black and white issue. (If it were, then we’d have no recourse against spammers”

You’re making an equivocation. The issue isn’t what’s written in the spam e-mail. Rather, it’s the fact that it IS spam e-mail. It could probably even be blank to be considered spam.

Gotta protect non-violent free speech, always.

“You’re making an equivocation. The issue isn’t what’s written in the spam e-mail. Rather, it’s the fact that it IS spam e-mail. It could probably even be blank to be considered spam.”

E-mail is it comparable to regular mail. If it is, then are the spammers breaking the law by sending adverts to people who don’t want them.

#37 “E-mail is it comparable to regular mail. If it is, then are the spammers breaking the law by sending adverts to people who don’t want them.”

Exactly. It’s the method of delivery that’s illegal (arbitrarily sending e-mails en-masse); not the speech contained within.

One could continue to advertise Penis Enlargers in magazines, on websites, etc., but not via spam.

Phil, you say you don’t actually ever read Mikko Ellilä’s blog, which is under investigation and that you’re not even fully aware of Mikko Ellillä’s opinions or comments, but YET you see it fit to stand up for him in your own blog? Excuse me?

Your post could make a lot more interesting read if you would’ve actually read at least some of the posts Mikko’s written in his blog.

The “war on terrorism” and the confrontation between the west and the muslim world has given all sorts of xenophobics, racists, and other extremists much more room to speak up their “opinions,” and to gather attention and approval from even some of those who would normally tend to think twice before attacking another group either verbally or physically. In this wake of terrorism, it should be noted that extremism exists on both sides, and that all kinds of extremism, especially the violent kind, need to be recognised and condemned. Confrontation can not be solved by creating more confrontation, okay?

The freedom of speech was never a totally unrestricted right anywhere in the world, in any society. There have always been, and are, laws that restrict the right to say everything one wants to in public. The freedom of speech doesn’t mean that you can just open your mouth and say whatever you please anywhere you want about anybody or anything. If I throw insults at you or try to incite violent thoughts or actions in others, it doesn’t fall under ‘freedom of speech.’ I’m sure that if you’re a reasonable person with a fair amount of common sense, you do agree with that. It seems to me that lately too many people have started playing dumb over issues like immigration, terrorism, religion, etc, and claim that they just don’t know what freedom of speech means or doesn’t mean. When will this end, I wonder?

I suggest that next time you write something, you could at least see first what is that you’re writing about. Of course you can just say that “though I’ve never read his blog, I’ve met the guy a couple of times and talked with him, and I’m sure he’s done nothing wrond,” but that doesn’t make you look much smarter than the person you’re talking about.

Phil:
>”I don’t know what he said that pissed the Finnish authorities off so much”

Ok, please remind yourself of the fact that now the police is only _investigating_. That doesn’t mean that Mikko Ellilä is yet charged of anything – it is just under investigation. In a society organized according to the standards that we generally believe in (right?), the police have both the right and the duty to investigate.

The request to investigate Ellilä’s blog might have come from a private individual as well as from some authorities. So it’s not necessarily “the Finnish authorities” that are so “pissed off now.”

And if Ellilä hasn’t indeed done anything wrong then he’s got nothing to worry about, right? So what’s the fuss about yet?

Those who so eagerly say that they’re “worried of the threats to the western culture and society with the current waves of immigration,” (it seems to me that those are some of Ellilä’s words) should ask themselves what sort of society and system it is that they “defend” and see as the “good western society and values,” if they don’t agree with the values of this western society?

So what’s the fuss about yet?

The internet is full of people with no life, no brains, no clue and too much time on their hands. As Finnpundit puts it, the blogosphere is abuzz.

Internet made it possible that the thoughts of marginal groups can now be accessed by everyone. They arise emotions in a very different way than any time in history. This gives more visibility to people who are hooked by their own thoughts and their agenda, in a way that has never been seen before.

We are trying to learn how to live together in this changed technical environment. The societies must decide how they regulate this slowly emerged new situation. Its not easy for anyone. Unlimited freedom to say whatever of anyone, also anonymously or not.

I am personally for freedom, but not for unlimited freedom. Case Ellila has showed, in my opinion, that I am right. Any cases like this, which emerge rather from personal character, like need to hurt anyone, rather tells about handicapped relationship towards other people than anything else. They turn thinkertothinker to hatertohater. They tell that things which work in theory are sometimes very difficult to carry out in real world.

People tend to think that all the others are more or less the same than themselves. Those of us who have tried to understand a psychopat know what I am writing about. No matter how hard you try, how well you know him, he remains a total stranger.

We see the same in political discussion. There is libertarists I appreciate, as well as many others. What they have in common is that they do not believe they are absolutely right, which would give justification for their thoughts alone and for no one elses.

That kind of libertsrists are few in Finland. Its not for libertarism to blame, however, in a small country marginal people are tempted by nationally marginal ideas. What is really sad is that almost without an exception, racialism is an inseparable part of the most loud libertarists’ ideology.

I hope this is a national deviation.

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