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2.5.2007

“Are you a lifer?”

Tags: Uncategorized — Author: @ 9:05 am

…this is a common question asked amongst foreigners from fellow foreigners in Finland. Like, “Are you a lifer in Finland?” which means “Will you live in Finland forever?” There’s much pride amongst these self-proclaimed “lifers”, they even tend to brag about the fact. And if you won’t declare yourself a lifer, you’re treated like the non-believer in a strange cult.

I am not a lifer, but that has nothing to due with Finland. I would never pledge my life’s allegiance to any country (or city, company, etc. for that matter). However, I’ve been asking myself more frequently lately, “Do I think I’ll be in Finland forever?” That’s a tough question – I’ve been here 4 1/2 years and when I first arrived I was more likely to answer “yes” to that question than now.

If I would have returned to the states after just a year or two or three, I would have felt shame, as if I had failed my “mission” somehow. But now I think I could return and be quite proud of myself and the time I spent. Although it wouldn’t be a complete success if I left now, one of my biggest goals was to become fluent in Finnish – I said to myself, “I won’t leave until I learn Finnish.” For the first couple years I thought I’d never become fluent, but now I’m confident of that goal, as Finnish is like an “upside down triangle”, whereby you start at the bottom and learn little, but as you go up you learn much more (English is the opposite supposedly).

Much about being a “lifer” doesn’t depend on yourself – If you’re living abroad, you need to have a good job and you need to be bettering your career, or else you’ll go insane. A job and a career is what makes or breaks you as a foreigner. I work hard and have been very fortunate, people ask me “How long will you stay in Finland?” and I say, “Until my company stops paying me.” …which is probably very close to the truth.

One of the reasons I think I’ll eventually return to the states is, very honestly, salary (which includes taxes, purchasing power, etc..). I won’t try to argue that the “quality of life” would be better for me in the states, but I’ll be able to live a bigger house, drive a nicer car, take fancier vacations, have more money at the end of the month, have more job opportunities etc..

Yes yes, the Finns can sleep better at night knowing they gave more of their hard-earned income away to taxes to benefit “society” (“society” meaning, within the confines of tiny Finland, meanwhile much of the rest of the world lives in their own shit and piss, especially those unlucky saps just east of the Finnish border). Life is short, sometimes you gotta just “lookout for #1″ as they say. Harsh, but true.

So for all those living abroad out there, have you shared the same experiences as me? Did you once think you were a “lifer” but have since changed your mind?

  • http://bnss.podshow.com RAVE THE SLAVE

    “Did you once think you were a “lifer” but have since changed your mind?” – Phil

    Every other week.

  • jkaleva

    Finland’s great. The States are great. As the Russians say, East or West, home is best.

    I’m a proud Finnish American. I have dual citizenship. Been to Finland 25x+, I lost count. Helsinki is like a second home. Friends, family, etc. Spent 6 months there in 2000 and realized I could never live there. I love America and I love Finland. But in different ways. Finland for its nature, America for its freedom. Finns embrace their natural environment better than Americans. Americans embrace their freedom better than Finns.

    Things I realized living in Helsinki I could never give up living outside the States…bartenders who didn’t measure out your cocktail with a fucking shot glass…good, abundant and relatively cheap ethnic food…college football (GO HUSKIES!)…a omakotitalo…and wages (I, to this day, don’t understand how people get by in Finland with the wages they pay there)…the weather can be pretty bad too…

    Things that are great about Finland…the busses always run on time…the women…6 weeks vacation time (although I get 4 weeks in the States and am considered lucky)…maternity/paternity leave (in the US it’s a joke)…the beautiful landscape…people relax more than Americans, Americans are tied up in the rat race…

    It’s all what you like. One’s not better than the other but what’s better is what you prefer. I know Americans who want to live in Finland (if they could ever get a job) and Finns that live in America and love it.

  • Porolainen

    Never heard the term before. It sounds rather American (goals orientated). OR it shows the crowd you mix with :)

  • http://www.palun.blogspot.com giustino

    I don’t think I ever would have predicted ending up in Estonia. So who can actually predict the future?

  • Smithy

    Who says you have to go back to the US? Why not try a different country next? Wouldn’t that be more exiting??

  • http://ringnokia.com Stefan Constantinescu

    Driven across America twice, I can’t wait to get out. The nice house may be great and all, but in the end it is the company that counts.

  • http://www.finlandforthought.net Phil

    Who says you have to go back to the US? Why not try a different country next? Wouldn’t that be more exiting??

    Heh, I think I’m looking for stability rather than excitement.

  • Unit

    I can say that I love Finland, not quite as much as America, but still. Salary is one of the main reasons why my family and I will move back to the States after we finish school. My occupation pays 3x better than in the States than in Finland. Money is not everything, but if we live here we will always struggle financially.

    I will miss things like jokamiehenoikeus, nature, the more relaxed lifestyle, and last but not least, ruisleipa. I won’t miss high taxes, katsastus, and irrational Anti-Americanism.(rational anti-americanism doesn’t bother me)

  • One foot in each camp

    $64,000 question is, if and when you go back, will you be comfortable there, knowing what you know now?

    Once you’ve been let out, once you’ve been away, there are a lot of things you had never seen before about your so-called home – and they may start to annoy you in ways you had not conceived of. It’s facile to think you can just “go back” – unless of course you have been living in a peanut-butter and Jay Leno/AFL/BudLite-fuelled microenvironment the while, in which case you have to ask the other question – why the fuck did you ever leave for foreign parts in the first place?

    Using emotionally charged terms like “lifer” seems to ignore the basic fact that whereEVER you are should be “home”. If it is not that, then you are in the wrong place, and one has to hope you know it is only temporary, because hanging on where you don’t want to be is a waste of time and spirit. Frankly, though it is a tired old line, a good many of the posters on here probably WOULD be better off going “home”, wherever that is, because when they do the math the personal downsides of Finland outweigh the upsides, and you have to ask why they bother to torture themselves (and the rest of us).

  • FinnFreak

    Home is where the heart lies, but if the heart lies, then where is home..? ;)

  • tim73

    Salaries are rising fast and taxes are going down. GDP per person is now bigger than in Germany and Finland is in rather unique position, between east and west = a lot of money to be made. Of course if Russia starts messing things up than thing could go wrong really fast. Just across the pond is Estonia with really low taxes and that alone will keep pressure on lowering taxes here too.

    Maybe Phil should start his own business, it is not that difficult and almost all startup funding possibilities are available here too. It is not like in the 70′s when the only way to do that was to borrow money against your own house from local bank.

    The main problem with USA is the financial irresponsibility, US government, states and cities are all borrowing too much money and that is going to be major burden. Taxes will be raised on all levels there or otherwise the whole system might collapse.

  • http://www.iesaf.fi Karhu

    Phil’s comment:
    [i]There’s much pride amongst these self-proclaimed “lifers”, they even tend to brag about the fact. And if you won’t declare yourself a lifer, you’re treated like the non-believer in a strange cult.[/i]

    I am trying to think who that might mean..There have been a couple of threads on both FF and IESAF forum on the subject..Dont recall any bragging by those who have committed themselves to live and die here.
    Of course “we” get a bit pissed off with those who constantly bleat about how bad things are here, compared to..where-ever they came from…but that does not usualy even result in “us” even posting a response anymore…There is usualy a Finn, someone like Hank, who tells them to piss off back to wence they came.

    How does one know if one is a lifer..??

    I quote Phil again..

    [i]“How long will you stay in Finland?” and I say, “Until my company stops paying me.” …which is probably very close to the truth.[/i]

    My opinion is; you are a lifer when that (Phil’s Statement) is no longer the truth.

    When Nokia, or who-ever you came here for, says “moi moi” and you dont think about going “home” because “home” is Finland.

    Non niin..so you then consider the options:

    1: Find another job..(or who-ever)…when you have been here 10 years plus and have not made a fool of your self and screwed up your Finnish contacts, and can handle at least the basics of the language…not so difficult.

    2: Think about early or part time retirement(osa eläkkeelle) and enjoy Finland even more.

  • N. Siinistö

    Hm, have you considered the risk that the US could reinstall the draft? (I’m not sure how old you are.)

  • N. Siinistö

    If you go back to the US, I hope you don’t leave this blog to Kristian, the boring preacher.

  • Anonymous

    You can always count on tim73… ;) Ignore him, please.

  • Kristian

    If you go back to the US, I hope you don’t leave this blog to Kristian, the boring preacher.

    I have to admit, it’s hard for me not to preach :lol:

    So, here I go….

    Phil’s right. In the US, you can have a better-paying job, bigger house, more money to spend, etc. Few places in Europe compare. For now, Finland doesn’t even come close.

    However, Finland has potential to be the best country in the world. But it needs reforms in a few key areas:

    Privacy—
    Finland can’t keep tossing people’s private (tax, financial) information around the world; Sure, Finns themselves don’t care about their personal verotietot, but people—especially business professionals—who move to Finland expect their privacy to be guarded according to bilateral agreements.

    Tax—
    too high; Finland needs to attract entrepreneurs that are willing to use the country as their home base. A highly-centralized economy will only attract Socialist types who aim to leech-off the system. Sounds cozy, but what Finland really needs are dynamic individuals capable of winning contracts from abroad; not just workers and moochers. Having dynamic individuals will raise salaries for everyone else.

    Consumer markets—
    Finland needs to stop its cartels and state monopolies (e.g. Alko) from dominating the marketplace. Prices for goods and services are too high and not enough selection. Businesses need to raise quality so Finnish products can be sold abroad. That way no jobs are lost.

    Income-based fines—
    favoring young, careless drivers while harshly punishing business professionals with driving experience will only ensure that talent moves elsewhere. People expect fairness, not ideology.

    Well, that’s my preaching for now. It’s a pivotal time for Finland. I hope the new government doesn’t miss a perfect opportunity to make improvements. Also, I hope Phil doesn’t leave!

  • N. Siinistö

    When it comes to privacy laws the US has a *lot* to learn from Finland and the EU. Problem with preachers is, they don’t always know what they are talking about.

  • Anonymous

    Some examples would be nice, mr. Siinistö.

  • FinnFreak

    STT – 2.5.2007 at 13:54

    Finland leads in press freedom table

    http://www.iltalehti.fi/viihde/susankuvatHM_vi.jpg

    Finland is in first place in the latest freedom of the press table drafted by US non-governmental organisation Freedom House.

    In the 195-country survey, made public on Tuesday, the worst of the worse is North Korea.

    …doesn’t that say it all..? ;)

  • Antti rn

    “But now I think I could return and be quite proud of myself…”

    Noo, any quitting before you are put in a nettle sack and dragged out from Koukkuniemi or similar place to cool down to ambient temperature, is considered ‘a return by the milk train’ and desertion. :D

  • Antti rn

    #19, maybe I take a little back something I said at #20.

  • Anonymous

    #18

    If you have a half a brain and actually can think all by your own. You can find the examples yourself from practically every post made by Kristian and friends

  • http://fredfryinternational.blogspot.com Fred Fry

    “Privacy—Finland can’t keep tossing people’s private (tax, financial) information around the world”

    I would think that Finland’s publishing of tax data violates this provisions of the European Constitution, which I understand Finland had approved:

    Article II-68
    Protection of personal data
    1. Everyone has the right to the protection of personal data concerning him or her.

    2. Such data must be processed fairly for specified purposes and on the basis of the consent of the person concerned or some other legitimate basis laid down by law. Everyone has the right of access to data which has been collected concerning him or her, and the right to have it rectified.

    3. Compliance with these rules shall be subject to control by an independent authority.

    The specific purpose of collecting the data is for the collection of taxes, not for publication. Publishing the data is a failure by the Finnish Government to protect it.

    Phil,
    You have proved that you can live in Finland. Now if moving back is the best thing for you, then it should be considered. As you mention the job is the hardest to make work if you either want to leave Nokia or have to leave Nokia. As a foreigner, it will always be an issue with any new employers of “Why would you stay here? You can move back to the US for a job.” This comment becomes a real problem as others do not want to hire you because you can leave, in effect forcing you to move back.

    Maybe you should find the spot in the US that best represents what you like in Finland. I suspect that Baltimore is not it. Maine perhaps?

  • http://www.axis-of-aevil.net/ hfb

    After four years of trying like hell to make Finland home, I have no regrets for returning to the US. I miss some of the people and food, sure, but it’s nice to be back. I think what absolutely sealed my return was when a couple of expat-Finn parents explained how they gave their Finnish-born child as Finnish a name as possible so as to not handicap them in the future when it came to school and job prospects, i.e. that even your children are subject to the same prejudices as you are even though they are born and raised in Finland with 1 Finnish parent.

    jkaleva – Since I have a baby who is in a similar in situation….were you happy your parents didn’t do it the other way around and raise you in Finland instead?

  • FinnFreak

    …and what about Montana..? ;)

  • Kuljinkauas

    Fred, there is a large populations of Finns in Michigan :O

  • Anonymous

    #21

    That the US has lot to learn from Finland? No, I don’t! Practically every post by Kristian states that Finland has lot to learn from anybody else, maybe barring North Korea. Mr. Siinistö stated the US has lot to learn from Finland regarding privacy. I want facts that support his statement. If he can’t provide any examples I must conclude he’s talking out of his ass.

  • http://www.entrepreneurshipfinland.com Jon

    I appreciate that if you come from certain parts of the US, whether to stay or go may be a dilemma. I am from the UK – no such dilemma.

    My advice to Americans wanting to leave, however, is to wait two years. The US has seen excellent growth over the past 15 years which partly explains why it has a PPP adjusted GDP per capita about 25% higher than Finland. However, there is increasing concern that some of that growth was built upon unsustainable foundations – namely debt. Irresponsible lending lead to the housing bust we are now seeing in the US. If consumer spending follows this trend, the US will go into recession and it could be very deep. There are signs that is happening now but many economists are optimistic it will weather the storm. If it does, Finland will not close the gap with the US. If it does not, Finland may well close the gap very significantly.

    Additionally, many of the things posters have found irritating about Finland may well change. Car tax will be shifted as will income taxes. Plus, Finland is an easier country to start your own business in than the US and there is much less competition. Most Americans could make a good living simply transplanting ideas they’ve seen in the US to Finland. Start with 7-11 in my opinion.

    Of course you will always be more highly taxed here than in the US and if Finnish culture doesn’t suit you, best to find one that does. I wouldn’t raise my children anywhere else though (that’s not quite true – any other Nordic country would probably do as would Switzerland).

  • Kristian

    Practically every post by Kristian states that Finland has lot to learn from anybody else

    Not about everything though. I’m one of those who actually likes Finnish culture above all others.

    It’s mainly the economics and some old-style, ideology-based laws that need to be changed. And I’m hopeful they will change. In my small way, I try to influence it as much as possible. I look toward the future, even if the present isn’t so good.

    But, admittedly, if I don’t see signs of positive change, then it will force me to stay away.

  • Sam

    Perhaps, a little bit off topic, but the blogger in 4 above does an absolutely great job on covering the events in Estonia.

    It is scary here, it feels like 1940 again.

    And I am flying on Aero in the next few days to Helsinki. I hope my plane is not called Kaleva.

  • Freeridin’ Franklin

    Hopefully I’m not a lifer. I’ve been so far and it has mostly sucked.

  • unlce sam

    well that is a good question. I live in a nice neighborhood. The couple right across me sold their house for €525,000 so I think I can make a nice profit when I sell. Much like Phil, I thought I would be ready to leave when I learn Finnish, but that has gone nowhere in the past 6 months. Back in the US I made 3X of what I make here. But I guess that is not what I miss. I miss seeing my mother and brother and old buddies of mine. I miss being able to go out for dinner or a drink without breaking the bank. I miss driving a nice car. I miss Whole Foods.I miss being able to drop my car for an oil change without making an appointment weeks in advance and believe it or not, I miss people saying please and thank you and smiling, even for no reason.

  • http://www.axis-of-aevil.net/ hfb

    Jon – “I wouldn’t raise my children anywhere else though..”

    Just out of curiosity, what makes you hold this conviction? I’ve heard a few people say it, but few seem to be able to explain why other than the pat idea of ‘free’ education and the flexible family perks. While there is no denying the fact that the culture is more laid back and crime-free, I couldn’t get past the lowered expectations that begin being taught to children from birth.

    Uncle Sam – It is indeed very odd that the formerly annoying friendliness in the US is so refreshing and welcome after living in Finland for a while. And Whole Foods Market is like an oasis you only dreamt about. I nearly hugged the produce guy the first time I went through after being back.

  • Kristian

    hfb: Just out of curiosity, what makes you hold this conviction?

    Because he’s from the UK. A total shit hole :lol:

    Just kidding. Many Brits seem to consider Finland/Nordics as their Shangri la.

    As far as I can see, the UK is an example of what happens when you transition to the free market…..nevertheless keep all the high taxes in place as before. People who live in London complain about it a lot.

    Sorry if I’m ill informed. But, according to what I’ve heard from many expats, I really have the impression that there’s something awry about that funky island. Culturally speaking, I wouldn’t want to raise children there….nor be a child there……nor be at the receiving end of some little delinquent who doesn’t like my parked car. I think the UK has some social baggage of days past to overcome :-/

  • Kristian

    #33 Germany too for that matter. A society can’t have so many generations influenced by that Prussian mentality and then suddenly become normal. Not so simple.

  • http://www.entrepreneurshipfinland.com Jon

    “Just out of curiosity, what makes you hold this conviction? ”

    In a nutshell, because in Finland there is genuine equality of opportunity. More later gotta dash.

  • Kristian

    And now that I think about it, I also like those smiley people in the US. I have no complaints about nice people…even though some complain that it is overly-nice. I don’t mind.

    But there’s also a not-so-nice mentality there depending on which person you happen to meet.

    I think much is influenced by the many waves of immigration over the past centuries. As soon as one group of immigrants became established, another group came along to challenge its position. Society was never at rest. Always struggle.

  • tim73

    “I couldn’t get past the lowered expectations that begin being taught to children from birth.”

    What friggin expectations? Children are children and they are not tools to fulfill parents’ expectations. Like in Japan where there is whole underclass of young people that simply just refused to fulfill those unrealistic expectations. Especially girls there are rebelling against machoism and ultratough-competition among students and workers. That really shows in birth rate, one of the lowest in the world.

    Americans work hard but not smart. Why is Toyota winning over GM? They have a way better working process that does not rely on overtight deadlines and patching up mistakes later.

    Germans are by American standards one of the laziest people in the world (six week holidays) but they do have that refining work process that produce good to excellent results in the long term. If they have to test a car suspension system for 10000 hours, they will do exactly that 10000 hours, not one minute less, no matter how tight deadline would be. Americans would cut down to 1000 hours and hope for the best.

    Anyway, Americans probably should go first to UK in order to have a soft landing to other cultures and it would help softening that “USA number one” attitude.

  • http://fredfryinternational.blogspot.com Fred Fry

    “Many Brits seem to consider Finland/Nordics as their Shangri la.”

    It won’t stay that way if they keep jetting off for day-trips to see Santa Claus. I wonder how much damage that is doing to the environment.

    The free school thing is so distorted. We send kids to school in the US at 5 unlike 7 in Finland. Our kids stay in school until they are 18 unlike Finland where your no longer guaranteed anything past 15. And in the US, you don’t have to pay for the books, unlike school in Finland. There is physical education and other programs too, which seem much more lacking in Finland. Maybe the shortcomings in lower education is what makes higher education free in Finland, for those who qualify…….

    Phil,
    You would not be the first to move back. You’ll certainly appreciate the commen things much more. Not to mention the expected higher salary. My first job in Finland after getting my MBA there paid me less than what I was earning in the US two years earlier. The scary thing was that I was earning more than everyone I know there.

  • Kristian

    #37: “That really shows in birth rate, one of the lowest in the world.

    They’ve got about 110,000,000 people on that little postage stamp-sized island. Not enough housing for everyone. I’d say, they should stick with the low birth rates for now.

  • Anne

    Hi! out of curiosity, what is your notion of a ‘fancier holiday’? I’m a Finn, and I have the prejudice that a typical American holiday trip is a week/two weeks long tour or a cruise where you ‘do a continent’ (having maybe a day/country).

    I have also been noticeing that my American relatives (who have varying economic backgrounds) seem to spend their short holidays mostly flying to some other U.S. state so they can spend time with their scattered family. the ‘fanciest’ I’ve heard them ever do is fly to Finland for a month! My point being, it seems Americans have shorter holidays and use them often travelling in the home country, often for family reasons.

  • Unit

    “In a nutshell, because in Finland there is genuine equality of opportunity. More later gotta dash.”

    Try tell that to any dark-skinned ulkomalaiset, they might think differently. In that respect I am lucky that I have light skin and a Finnish last name.

  • http://www.axis-of-aevil.net/ hfb

    “In a nutshell, because in Finland there is genuine equality of opportunity.”

    How does this jive, though, with expats making sure their kid has a Finnish sounding name so that they don’t get tormented in school or passed over for jobs later as an adult?

  • http://fredfryinternational.blogspot.com Fred Fry

    “it seems Americans have shorter holidays and use them often travelling in the home country, often for family reasons.”

    Well yes, but it does take less time to fly from the US East Coast to the West coast than it does to travel across the Atlantic. Also, the language is the same, the money, most everything is the same other than the scenery. Vacations might be shorter but with most companies they grow with time. I started with 3 weeks but now get 5, just like in Finland, and I can take them 1 day or a week at a time. What good is four weeks vacation when you take them in one shot? Then you need to wait a whole year to relax again. My fellow Finnish employees thought I was crazy taking one-week vacations. They asked, what can you do with one week off? It was my reply that got them. “Go on vacation. Five times.”

  • Punter

    I’m loving this one. As for Tim73, that’s it. There are no expectations because everyone is expected to be the same. Poor way to start, no drive or motivation.
    Fred #38- Great point.Certain things are definately lacking from the school programs here that are paid for later by parents, all during this “free education” time. The other thing that is interesting is just how late the kids here start school. Now I’ve always heard how it’s soooo much better because the “kids can be kids” and not have to grow up so quick by starting school at 5. Yeah right. So many (if not most) kids here spend their days in day care, from 7am till 5pm 5 days a week being kids. No time at home being kids with family. It always makes me laugh how this system is so right even though anyone can see through all the contradictions.
    Finally Anne #40- Have a look at The US on a map dear. Notice anything? Travel in their homeland may involve landscapes and changes unimaginable here in Europe. A 6 hour flight may find us in exotic Nth Africa while for them, it’s East-West coast for the weekend. Not rocket science ;)

  • Kristian

    American vacations are most convenient. You don’t even have to leave the office LOL!

    Or maybe I’m talking about the Finnish ones. Fred, any “slackers” in Finland? :lol:

  • Punter

    #43- “or sit in your lonely unpowered cottage by an algae infested lake drinking over-priced beer eating meatless sausage and staring into emptiness for 4″ Gotta love it

  • http://www.entrepreneurshipfinland.com Jon

    When I wrote that there is genuine equality of opportunity in Finland I meant that the accident of your birth is, statistically speaking, less likely to determine where you end up than in any other country. Likewise, at 15 Finns are better at Maths and Science and have better literacy than anyone else. That is even though they start school at 7. At the same time your social status is less likely to determine your achievement in school than anywhere else.

    There is a shopping list of things I would change but at the moment it’s the best going.

  • Punter

    Yeah Jon but unfortunately there is more to life than how well you read and write at 15 and this is a typical mistake in Finland. The bigger picture is seldom considered. While kids may get off to a good start academically (agreed) it matters for little when their upper secondary and tertiary education is unable to maintain the benefit. As discussed previously here, there are few if any examples of brilliant universities in Finland and in fact any student wanting to better themselves are automatically drawn to institutes elsewhere (primarily USA/UK). Likewise lecturers and teachers are hardly knocking down doors to work in Finland unlike the other way around.
    This is what I would describe as a typical Finnish problem. Sure we start off well and achieve great results to a certain level after which maintaing or lifting the standard all becomes too hard. The drive is missing for greatness so mediocracy become acceptable. Sad but true.

  • http://www.entrepreneurshipfinland.com Jon

    Punter,

    Upper secondary schools here are no worse than anywhere else. That’s not a ringing endorsement, just a fact.

    You are right that there are no world class universities here and it is a problem that will need to be addressed. However, one would not expect more than one world class university in a country this size and Helsinki is ranked 66th in the world, which isn’t too bad. It is never likley to have $30 billion worth of endowments like Harvard so it will never compete. In my view the undergraduate education here is very standard. The research is not at all bad though and that is why Helsinki is up there on the ranking.

    I disagree with your diagnosis of the problem. It is not the lack of a drive for greatness but a simple question of culture and economics. Every great university has benefitted from massive donations. This is not in the Finnish culture and Americans have been much richer than Finns since records began. When the richest of 300m start putting their money into a handful of universities over 200 years you get Harvard and Yale. When the King gives huge wealth to a university you get Oxford and Cambridge. They are the result of huge inequalities of wealth which Finland does not have.

  • Punter

    “It is not the lack of a drive for greatness but a simple question of culture and economics.”
    I couldn’t agree more! The culture and therefore the path to economic success is what is missing here. That was my point. There is no great wealth and as long as the culture stays the same and we continue to look back for excuses (no monarchy, no early wealth, no Bill Gates) things will never improve. The culture he is one of looking back and finding excuses for failures and short comings rather than to aggressively stive for improvements. I feel people here will always rather be “the victim.” Seems to be easier.

  • http://www.entrepreneurshipfinland.com Jon

    Punter,

    To be honest, it would be a mistake to say that Finland is not an economic success. Not only is it one of the richest countries in the world per capita, but it has done so in the face of severe obstacles. For much of the last half century it was forced to pay back reparations to Russia. In the early nineties its major trading partner collapsed. Still, it has recovered and surpassed countries with far fewer obstacles. Indeed, the economic outlook for Finland is very good according to the OECD.

    There is much I would change and the drive to become more efficient and to foster innovation must never cease. In the history of mankind though, Finland is a galloping economic success.

  • Anonymous

    #50

    I agree with Punter, Fuck the poor. It’s their fault so stop being poor and let me exploit you.

  • mh

    Fred Fry wrote:

    The free school thing is so distorted. We send kids to school in the US at 5 unlike 7 in Finland.

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t kindergarten part of the school? Or do they start first grade at 5? If it’s the kindergarten they start at 5, how is that different from finnish esikoulu which kids start at 6? And before that finnish kids go to päiväkoti – daycare – where they draw, paint and do things kids like to do. They’re just not called school. Finnish kids usually learn to read only at 7, though.

    Our kids stay in school until they are 18 unlike Finland where your no longer guaranteed anything past 15.

    I don’t quite understand this. How are the kids not anything? They’re guaranteed a vocational or lukio education, and university education after that, if they want it and aren’t too dumb to be educable (rare). They aren’t forced to do anything by the state, but most are forced to do something by their parents. Should the “forcing” be the responsibility of the parents or the state?

    And in the US, you don’t have to pay for the books, unlike school in Finland.

    Free books grades 1-9, after that you pay for them.

    There is physical education and other programs too, which seem much more lacking in Finland.

    Don’t know about physical education in the US, but it is quite lacking in Finland, so you’re probably right. I think the problem with finnish physical education is the forcing bit. You’re forced to do this and that, like playing soccer, and if you happen to suck at it you get laughed at. It would be better if the kids were allowed to do whatever they want, like playing badminton if they hate soccer and volleyball, as long as they’re doing something physical. The current system outright kills any liking for sports the unsuccesful kids might have.

  • mh

    Damn. I didn’t mean to “yell” at you, just forgot to close the bold tag…

  • Antti rn

    “…with expats making sure their kid has a Finnish sounding name..”

    Huh? After reading ‘baptized’ section in HS, I have a feeling that me and missus are the only juntti-einari’s left naming our children with plain traditional finnish names.

  • Anonymous

    Several points

    1. Most of the comments here come from Finns who can’t GO home because they’ve never left it. They visit Phil’s site to tell foreigners that dare to criticise Finland that Balck is White and vice versa

    2. I recognise the comment (23) made by hfb. I live in Finland for 2 years and then left. One of my reasons for leaving was that I saw the writing on the wall for my 2 year old son. He doesn’t have a Finnish name and he doesn’t look Finnish either. I felt that he was treated unequally at his day care. There are still far too many Finnish racist Junttis out there. Other ex-pats that I knew had similar problems with their kids be victimised and bullied. During my time in Finland I taught at a Lukio and a Business College. I knew students at both schools that had “mixed” parents that changed their foreign sounding surname, taken from their Dad, to their mothers Finnish sounding maiden name. Racism is accepted / excused away by even well educated Finns, and it drives many foreigners away

    3. I agree with comment 41 and 42. Equality of opportunity only applies to pale faced Finns. Jon, have you got a job yet?

    4. Finns love to quote PISA. However, after working as a teacher in Finland I’m wouldn’t base my view of the Finnish education solely on a single study. I heard many rumours about Finland’s PISA sample being manipulated. A country could boost its recorded performance by selecting only “good” schools for the PISA sample, and within those schools the Headteacher my ask only “good” students to sit the PISA tests. Translation also affects the difficulty of a question.

  • Anonymous

    Finland won’t improve until they quit their denial culture

  • http://fredfryinternational.blogspot.com Fred Fry

    “Free books grades 1-9, after that you pay for them.”
    – Why free and then not? Not exactly a free education. This is the trick of the social society, where you get everything for free and then they nail you with all sorts of fees.

    “Our kids stay in school until they are 18 unlike Finland where your no longer guaranteed anything past 15.”
    – To clarify, I ment that children are not guaranteed any schooling after 15. Maybe that is wrong. Perhaps that they are not required to go to school once they are 15. Why would Finland let kids drop out of school when they are only half-done?
    As for being too dumb for university, there are countless examples of people who did poorly in high school who then excelled in university. The Finnish system does not give them a chance.

    “Fred, any “slackers” in Finland?”

    Kristian,
    Don’t even get me started.

  • Kristian

    I agree with Punter that there are just too many things that Finns blame on the past.

    And somehow Sweden is always the measuring stick. If you say, “Finland is poor.” The automatic Finnish response is, “Yeah, Sweden was always wealthier.”

    It’s as if you can only be wealthy today if you were wealthy in the past. It is rarely questioned whether Finland’s current economic system is optimal.

    —– —– —— ——

    Sitting around with family yesterday, a cousin-in-law chimed-in by saying “alcohol taxes always need to be high in Finland otherwise all Finns will be alcoholics.”

    He simply parroted what he’d heard and read all his life in Finland.

    I had to ask him: is it only Finns who need these high prices? Or do Germans, French and Italians also need them?

    Of course not. Only Finns need high alcohol prices. So we’ve been told.

  • http://www.entrepreneurshipfinland.com Jon

    “3. I agree with comment 41 and 42. Equality of opportunity only applies to pale faced Finns. Jon, have you got a job yet?”

    I think there’s a degree of racism here towards non-Finns but only if they don’t speak Finnish or speak it badly. It’s a problem I agree. Yes, I’ve had a job since arriving in Finland but I realise I’m not typical. I might well have had a better job had I stayed in the UK.

    “4. Finns love to quote PISA. However, after working as a teacher in Finland I’m wouldn’t base my view of the Finnish education solely on a single study. I heard many rumours about Finland’s PISA sample being manipulated. A country could boost its recorded performance by selecting only “good” schools for the PISA sample, and within those schools the Headteacher my ask only “good” students to sit the PISA tests. Translation also affects the difficulty of a question.”

    Studies can always be criticised but the PISA study is the only comparison available. As always it is imperfect but much better than personal experience, which is worthless because it is so partial.

  • Lil Sis

    I’m biased, but I think moving back to the US would be a great idea! Heck, if you miss the cold, move to the north. If you want warm weather, move to the south. Ocean-front, lake-front, mountain-view, forest, plains, big city, boonies…we have it all. If you ever move to another country, make it a warm one with cheap flights! ;)

  • Don

    I was just having this conversation with some mates yesterday. I lived in Germany for a while, and also spent some time in Equador, then I moved back to the states. I really thought I was ready to be back “home”. Well, when I got back, it sure didn’t feel like home anymore. I had changed way too much. I mean, I get on fine here and everything, but I just don’t think I can stay too much longer without going insane.

    Very soon, I will be moving to Finland. I hope it is somewhat refreshing and a new experience. I cannot say right now whether I would/will live there forever, I have no idea. Sometimes that scares me a bit, because I don’t really feel like I “belong” anywhere at the moment. I’m not sure what to do with/about that, heh.

    Funny thing is, I make pretty decent money here now and pay lower taxes and all that shit, but as much as we put importance on it, I really don’t give a crap at the moment. No matter what rationality you place on it, it isn’t as easy as all that and you sometimes just can’t help how you feel or don’t feel.

  • mh

    “Free books grades 1-9, after that you pay for them.”
    Why free and then not? Not exactly a free education.

    Grade 9 is the last the kids are “forced” to attend. It’s logical that the line is drawn there. I suppose they could provide free books on later stages too, but the system is already underfunded. At the later stages the kids also become eligible for opintotuki which they can’t get while on grades 1-9.

    This is the trick of the social society, where you get everything for free and then they nail you with all sorts of fees.

    There are no hidden fees here. Nobody is forcing you to buy any books although it might be difficult to get good grades without them. If you happen to have an older sibling, you can use his/her leftover books. If you decide to buy the books anew, they sell them in non-government-owned book stores.

    Perhaps that they are not required to go to school once they are 15. Why would Finland let kids drop out of school when they are only half-done?

    The age is actually 16, not that it makes very much difference.

    Yes, they can actually drop out if they don’t finish 9th grade by the time they turn 16. I don’t know if it makes any difference to make them stay any longer if they are that determined not to pass. These cases are very rare, though.

    Most kids continue to vocational or lukio after they finish 9th grade. Is it this that you oppose, making the decision between vocational and lukio at the age of 15-16?

    As for being too dumb for university, there are countless examples of people who did poorly in high school who then excelled in university. The Finnish system does not give them a chance.

    University education requires certain amount of intelligence. If they really are dumb, then it is not for them. If they have bad grades because they are lazy and unmotivated (the majority of students with bad grades), they still have good chances to get into a finnish university. To get in to a finnish university, you have to take the acceptance exam. If you score high enough, you’re in and nevermind the earlier bad grades. Of course, you get extra points for good grades, so it might be really hard to get in to one of the more difficult programs if you get no extra points. If you’ve been lazy and lack the basic knowledge to study for the acceptance exam, then it might also be too hard.

  • Green

    mh beat me to it…

    Sad to see that so many dont like Finland. It also seems that a lot of misinformation and more importantly misunderstanding among expats about how Finland works and why it works like it does.

  • http://www.axis-of-aevil.net/ hfb

    Jon – “When I wrote that there is genuine equality of opportunity in Finland I meant that the accident of your birth is, statistically speaking, less likely to determine where you end up than in any other country. Likewise, at 15 Finns are better at Maths and Science and have better literacy than anyone else. That is even though they start school at 7. At the same time your social status is less likely to determine your achievement in school than anywhere else.”

    Well, it will be interesting to see if the kids with names of obviously foreign origin do as well in school and have the same opportunities presented to them. Both the UK and the US have different forms of class and status but, don’t think for a moment that Finland doesn’t have its own form. And, as a statistical average, the school performance is impressive, but then why is all the greatness such a dark and well hidden secret outside of educators and Finnophiles?

  • http://www.entrepreneurshipfinland.com Jon

    “but then why is all the greatness such a dark and well hidden secret outside of educators and Finnophiles?”

    It isn’t. People from all over the world come to visit Finnish schools to see what they’re doing right. Anyone who read the PISA reports also knows.

  • Anonymous

    You guys and gals get so wrapped up in politics and comparing country’s as if there really is a right answer.

    The thought of moving “home” is a spiritual issues too, having your own family, mother, father, brothers and sisters, friends who actually know you and food that your love (even if it is Peanut Butter).

    It has sometimes nothing to do with how much taxes you pay or who is the President.

    It has to do with being happy or potentially bumping into an old friend, and sometimes but not always chatting with a stranger in an elevator.

  • http://www.axis-of-aevil.net/ hfb

    Jon – You missed my point….aside from drinking and working for Nokia, it doesn’t seem that the well educated do very much with it either inside or outside of Finland. One peculiar trait of the Finnish education is the seemingly mortal fear of getting something wrong, e.g. my husband has issues singing to our daughter since he isn’t a good singer…as if a 5 month-old cares. :)

    You can get a good to great education on either side of the Atlantic if you work hard enough at it…what you do with it is what distinguishes that education and the institution where it was received.

  • Unit

    #68
    You really hit the nail on the head. Your reasons listed are the most important ones, the rest are secondary in nature.

  • Anonymous

    I have this issues with Finland:

    1- Whereever you go you always end up buying food from Citymarket or Smarket, even in the most remote “village”, same for Kioski. In a few words, uniformity…everything is flat

    2- I was shocked when I saw that big companies, firing people and saw all the collegues in a “business as usal mode”, one told me then if they fire they must have a good reason or it’s good for the company future…

    3- Weather is frustrating, your holiday can be ruined if you have chosen the wrong week or month in the summer…

    4- Ridiculous Car Tax!

    5- Ridiculous flat price… and hearing the “land shortage” cause price to go higher… Commune and city planning should stop their corrupt game :-}.

    6- I would not go either to the US : too money centric and “plastic”!, i opt for old europe, or the new europe once it get a bit older

  • tim73

    Americans work yearly about 20-25 percent more (1950 hours, same as in Japan) than most Europeans and get 25 percent more salary. So what is the point of that? Live to work?

  • Kristian

    get 25 percent more salary.

    Gross salary maybe. It’s probably more like 100% (double) when considering net salary and purchasing power. And please don’t tell me about the great social services I receive in Finland. I get nothing.

    Great bike paths and urban planning though.

    aside from drinking and working for Nokia, it doesn’t seem that the well educated do very much with it

    Are you trying to convince us that drinking isn’t considered important work? :lol:

  • http://stello.brayforum.com/blog Stello

    “So for all those living abroad out there, have you shared the same experiences as me? Did you once think you were a “lifer” but have since changed your mind?”

    - – - – -
    I’m a Finn living in Ireland (for a bit over ten years now). I’d honestly rather die than live in Finland again. I do love lots of things about Finland, and I’m proud of my nationality, but I just can’t live there. I start getting depressed during a week’s visit, especially if it’s in wintertime.

    I’m fairly certain that I’ll always live in Ireland as I feel totally at home here, and if I ever imagine living in some other country, I’d miss Ireland too much. (And I’m not even into the diddle-e-i culture or U2, I just enjoy the everyday life here.)

  • Kristian
  • Punter

    The All Ords has just posted the same in Australia. It must be the beginning of the end that Tim73 and his pink pals keep preaching about ;)

  • Anonymous

    69: Could you give me some examples, common activities abroad where one uses hir education besides work? Do you mean hobbies?

  • tsuhna

    Kristian “I’m one of those who actually likes Finnish culture above all others.”

    Hah hah, you’re a funny guy, Krisse.

  • Anonymous

    After four years of trying like hell to make Finland home, I have no regrets for returning to the US.

    And such a likable type you seem to be! ;-)

  • Anonymous

    with expats making sure their kid has a Finnish sounding name so that they don’t get tormented in school

    “Tormented in school”, yes, and they eat them too.
    You’re … I don’t know … sick racist?

  • halffinn

    wow, a lot of comments on this one…

    so i’m in the same boat as jkaleva. i’m half-finnish, dual citizenship. i lived in finland about 4 years both as a child, and as a university student. i tried to work while i was in college, but i faced a lot of discrimination because of my name.

    i have been back many times, and i love finland, finnish culture and all of my finnish family. but i don’t think i can live there again.

    years ago, phil’s comments about wanting a bigger house, better car, etc would have been my opinion as well. but now i’ve had those things during a successful career in the states. beyond the tax issues, finland’s biggest problem for entrepreneurship, in my opinion, is cultural. there’s not a culture of self-determination or ambition. that’s why i am 100% sure i could not have done what i did in finland. so, to the question of trying another country next, i’m currently living in germany, and basically hating it. i’ve also lived in france, which was nice, but stagnant and not progressive enough economically.

    what really gets me in the end is the societal issues – friendliness, openness, smiling for no reason. finns are reserved and shy. germans are rude, mean and their default attitude is dislike and mistrust until proven otherwise. the us is a country that is open (although less so now), welcomes foreignors and does give mostly equal opportunity. if you want to succeed, in any way that you define as success, the us is a country that will give you the freedom to try. you may fail, and if you do, there will be no one there to catch you, but at least you can try. in finland, you most likely cannot.

    t: jere

  • Anonymous

    one would not expect more than one world class university in a country this size and Helsinki is ranked 66th in the world, which isn’t too bad.

    AFAIK the rankings are based on references in certain international journals. “International” means English nowadays. Every study made in Finnish gets lost in these rankings. In other words, they are useless.

    Yeah, there’s quite a lot of English in medical and IT education – and that’s the reason why the University of Helsinki is 60th, not 666th.

    What can we do? Start studying in English?

    My guess is that Estonia will make English an official language soon. Then Finland will follow. In a couple of generations Finnish will be the language “the old people speak back at home”, like in Ireland.

    Then we’ll have a world-class university!

  • David

    Many comments follows the trend “It’s better to leave Finland”, but perhaps this merely reflects the people who read this blog (or this particular entry)?

    #68 probably said it the best. I would say, “home” is a concept, an ideology, or even a dream that people preconceived. No enough rational reasons can convince a person that a particular place is home. There are always places doing things “better” than where you live now. Food, tax, education, money, cars… etc. So do people instantly plan a migration once they find greener pasture?

    This leads to another point: what does one want to do with his/her life? Reading through the comments, I feel as if there is a competition for the greatest achiever here. While everyone of us competes in one way or another, it’s not to be forgotten that we also have a life to live. You can earn more and all that, but will you be happy? (Let me point out, this is a rhetorical question.)

    Finally, nobody seems to compare Finland to, say, Russia, China, India, or Congo (and Kazakhstan.) Rather, it’s the usual suspects – US, UK, Germany, Switzerland, Canada…etc.

    Maybe Finland is not as bad as some made out to be?

  • Anonymous

    finland’s biggest problem for entrepreneurship, in my opinion, is cultural. there’s not a culture of self-determination or ambition

    Nevertheless Finland tends to outperform the USA growthwise.

    That means, in all likelihood, that, hell, Finns are not even close to the ideal of not working too hard. Apparently we still have this idea of making yet another euro in order to “survive”.

    Hopefully we’ll learn to have less ambition in the future, you know, lay back and enjoy of what we’ve got, like in those “poorer” countries, Germany, Netherlands and what have you.

    Americans (the citizens of the USA on average) are of course brainwashed beyond any hope in this respect: “More, more, more”. ;-)

  • Anonymous

    Finally, nobody seems to compare Finland to, say, Russia, China, India, or Congo (and Kazakhstan.) Rather, it’s the usual suspects – US, UK, Germany, Switzerland, Canada…etc.

    Finland should be compared to Kazakhstan, that’s of course the the right angle. Never mind that in reality Finland is one of the richest and fastest growing economies in the world.

    Where do you folks get these strange ideas?

  • Anonymous

    Where do you folks get these strange ideas?

    This blog?

  • http://www.entrepreneurshipfinland.com Jon

    “finland’s biggest problem for entrepreneurship, in my opinion, is cultural. there’s not a culture of self-determination or ambition”

    There was actually an awful lot of entrepreneurship before the collapse of the USSR. So many people got burned so badly it made them reluctant to try again. Certainly it’s not in the Finnish blood in the same way as it is in the US but that is in part just to do with marketing. The US was founded on the idea that you come and pull yourself up by your bootstraps.

    There’s nothing inherently anti-entrepreneurial about welfare states and Nodic culture either. Norway and Iceland have a similar number of entrepreneurs as the US, so it’s not about taxes. I’d say watch this space.

  • Anonymous

    Helsinki University of Technology is world class but you can’t graduate there in Finnish, I think, or at least it’s rare nowadays.

  • Punter

    #82- Again it seems that these lists are fine when they rate Finland highly but should be ignored when they don’t. Typically Finnish opinion.

  • Anonymous

    Again it seems that these lists are fine when they rate Finland but should be ignored when they don’t.

    Again it seems that Punttis disregards facts and concentrates on Finland bashing. Your a sad, sad personality.

  • Freeridin’ Franklin

    if you want to succeed, in any way that you define as success, the us is a country that will give you the freedom to try.

    Sure, if you manage to crawl under the fence alive. There’s a snowball’s chance in hell to get in legally.

  • Kristian

    David: “You can earn more and all that, but will you be happy?

    True. But economics isn’t solely about earning more. It can also influence the type of employment available, which in-turn influences your enjoyment of life irrespective of money.

    For now, in Finland, your best chances are to be a corporate guy. Or maybe a scientist or engineer who works for a big company. The salaries aren’t so big, but you can still have a reasonably good life if you enjoy other aspects of Finnish culture.

    But if you don’t like the rules and conformity of corporations, then to be self-employed is normally the most logical alternative. It might raise the quality of your life irrespective of any increase/decrease in income.

    But you still need some basic freedoms from the economic and legal side to even make it possible. That’s the part that needs to be developed in Finland. It’s not quite there yet. Currently, the economic and legal system is optimized for the proletariat.

    As someone already mentioned, there’s not much entrepreneurial drive in Finland. It’s true. That’s thanks to 50+ years of Socialism (er, excuse me, _Social Democracy_). It created a huge proletariat. The economy and laws were formed around it.

    David: “nobody seems to compare Finland to, say, Russia, China, India, or Congo (and Kazakhstan.)

    I compare it with eastern Europe (excluding Russia). No doubt, Finland is a much cleaner version of it; nevertheless there is a distinct similarity: All were characterized by centralized economics. Of course, Finland managed to remain more free in comparison.

    Remaining free-er obviously worked in Finland’s favor. But the others had the strange luck of experiencing total economic collapse which enabled them to start anew. In contrast, Finland must strive hard to dismantle some very deeply entrenched structures.

    Each has its particular advantages I suppose; just depends on who you are and what you are trying to achieve—even if only in the non-financial sense.

  • http://www.axis-of-aevil.net/ hfb

    halffinn – “so i’m in the same boat as jkaleva. i’m half-finnish, dual citizenship. i lived in finland about 4 years both as a child, and as a university student. i tried to work while i was in college, but i faced a lot of discrimination because of my name. i have been back many times, and i love finland, finnish culture and all of my finnish family. but i don’t think i can live there again.”

    Thanks for sharing that. I was fairly sure of my conviction that moving with my child back to the US was the best option for her future not only because of her pedigree but also for opportunities that she’d never have in Finland. Hopefully she’ll appreciate it when she gets older as I’ve even insisted in our will that if I die before she reaches 14, that her father is not to take her back to Finland as a permanent residence. She’ll have the best of both…summers in Finland and the rest of the year in the blue bits of the US. :)

  • http://bnss.podshow.com DAVE THE MAVE

    Um, what about the wishes of your husband, 93? What if without your jovial presence he discovers that despite your state’s blue-ness, he would want the same thing as you… ie to move back to his homeland.

    Doesn’t seem quite fair to dictate his life after your death, does it?

  • http://www.axis-of-aevil.net/ hfb

    Dave – He is always free to return if he wants, just not with her until she’s of an age to decide for herself. He witnessed some of the same things I did and understands why I have made that provision. It’s unlikely that Finland will change much with regard to immigrants before then.

  • Anonymous

    I hope that hfb somehow manages to prevent her from moving here ever, if she’s gonna be anything like her mother. We don’t need any more racists here.

    hfb (about the Finns and Americans): “I’ve not seen a single violent, pooping, pissing or passing out in the street drunk since I left the so-called happiest nation in the EU, another baseless claim that mere observation doesn’t support, […] Maybe it’s genetic, too.”

  • Anonymous

    “He is always free to return if he wants, just not with her until she’s of an age to decide for herself.”

    So is the child in question his? Why do you feel the urge to be the sole “owner” and dictate what he can do when it comes to your and his child? Do you call the shots or do you make compromises?

  • Punter

    You are really starting to work on my head you twit #96. Perhaps a classic case of the pot calling the kettle black. Anyone who dare speaks out against anything here, you steep to personal attacks and biggoted generalizations declaring all else inferior racists. WAKE UP or crawl back under the rock you came out from.

  • Kristian

    halffinn: “germans are rude, mean and their default attitude is dislike and mistrust until proven otherwise.

    That’s a good cultural summary of Germany. Of all cultures on this planet, the German one must be the worst in terms of friendliness :lol:

    However, I’ve found that it varies from one region to the next. Not all are bad. I find Bavarians very nice. Eastern Germans are usually very nice, too.

    But all Germans, irrespective of region, are bizarre. You know, like all windows on the public bus must remain closed even when it is 35C outside; someone might catch a draft and get sick. There’s a long list of such strangenesses.

    Despite the cultural quirks, I’ve always found it easy to make good friends in Germany. I guess when everyone hates each other, even Germans appreciate having close friends upon which to rely.

    Of course, that’s no consolation when you need to deal with the less-than-professional crew at—e.g. state monopoly Deutsche Telekom customer service. Like dealing with spoiled children :-/

  • Freeridin’ Franklin

    Anon quoting hfb:
    “I’ve not seen a single violent, pooping, pissing or passing out in the street drunk since I left the so-called happiest nation in the EU, another baseless claim that mere observation doesn’t support, […] Maybe it’s genetic, too.”

    During our recent week-long stay in New York, we were accompanied by a nodding junky in a Starbucks on W 49th St on one fine morning. He wasn’t bothering anyone, but we concluded that in Helsinki he’d been thrown out in appx. 2 seconds. I guess it all depends on what you want to see, hfb.

    Not to mention that a few cops got shot (one in Harlem, two auxiliaries in the Village) and there was a violent granny-robber loose in Queens, so I guess they haven’t quite eradicated violence in the USA yet. Perhaps these things don’t happen in your gated community, so it’s all for the better.

  • Kristian

    #100

    Amazingly, the New York City metro area has the population of Finland, Sweden and Norway, combined. And then some more.

    I don’t think it’s necessary to live in a gated community in the US. Even big cities are safe, but you don’t want to live in the ethnic sections of them….and I’m not talking about the European ethnic sections.

  • Kristian

    #101

    And when considering Blacks and Latinos, I’ll guess that there are more of them in NYC than there are Finns in Finland. That is, about 5M?

  • Freeridin’ Franklin

    Kristian:
    Amazingly, the New York City metro area has the population of Finland, Sweden and Norway, combined. And then some more.

    I wonder how many policemen were shot to death on duty in Finland, Sweden and Norway combined during that week. I know that it’s been 10 years in Finland.

    and I’m not talking about the European ethnic sections.

    But gotta keep those damn Danes out. They’re nothing but trouble.

  • Antti rn

    “That’s thanks to 50+ years of Socialism (er, excuse me, _Social Democracy_). It created a huge proletariat…”

    Err…remember the starting point. In the 50′s whole country was practically proletariat. Worker family of 5 could live in a 60m2 apartment and have a couple of tenants living with them. My parents lived practically with a barrel of herring they bought from silakkamarkkinat + with potatos granpa sent them. In the 70′s, some of my classmates did not have electricity and we had 2-digit phone number, as the manual switchboard was used in our village up to 1980′s.

    If anything, I think kekkoslovakia produced the finnish middle class, rather than proletariat. In the 40′s, Finland was on par with many South-American countries. I guess they got something right here afterall.

  • Anonymous

    Punter, your a product of the Australian variant of the general “Anglo-Saxon” racism. It rooted so deep in your discourse that you wouldn’t see it even if it bit you in the ass. Redfern, Palm Island, Sydney, Cronulla …

    And let’s face it, you’re not all that bright either.

  • Anonymous

    Poor Kristian thinks that American violence is an ethnic problem. A bit history wouldn’t hurt, I guess. Well, goes to show that Finns too can be stupid racists.

  • Kristian

    I wonder how many policemen were shot to death on duty in Finland

    Yeah, the whole murder tally in NYC is lately around 600/year. It’s now at the lowest level since 1963.

    Most were committed in NY’s Finlandtown section…..you know, near Harlem.

  • Kristian

    Anonymous: “So is the child in question his?

    She doesn’t know.

    (just kidding :lol: )

    hfb: “I’ve even insisted in our will that if I die before she reaches 14, that her father is not to take her back to Finland

    That’s not important. I want to know, who gets the orange ball?
    http://www.axis-of-aevil.org/about.html

  • http://www.axis-of-aevil.net/ hfb

    Ah, the anonymous chorus of the red herrings come out as if they might be doing anything but reinforcing my opinion and joy for escaping Finland with my child.

    Freeridin’ – I don’t live in NYC, but I would guess the default response to someone like that in Helsinki would be to avoid eye contact and ignore them until they went away or quietly committed suicide….it’s pretty much the same with drunks anywhere downtown, except maybe the trams during the push lately to get the freeloaders away from tourists.

  • Anonymous

    escaping Finland.

    You and your racism are greatly missed. If you just took your medication more frequently I’m sure you wouldn’t feel the compulsion to carry on with your abusive ways here ;-)

    I don’t live in NYC

    Well, if you live in Boston my advise is to go boldly out:

    Pregnant woman shot in leg
    Hancock and DeWolf streets, Dorchester
    10:27 AM

    April 30, 2007

    Man shot repeatedly
    Dudley and Dearborn streets, Roxbury
    8:52 PM

    April 29, 2007

    Cold Stone Creamery robbed at knifepoint
    201 Brookline Ave., Roxbury
    2:15 PM

    April 28, 2007

    Person shot in head
    Millet and Park streets, Dorchester
    11:19 PM

    April 25, 2007

    Teen arrested for armed robbery
    102 Columbia Rd., Dorchester
    11:45 PM

    Stabbed to death
    Blue Hill Avenue, Mattapan
    7:30 PM

    April 23, 2007

    Shot in the lip
    Dunkeld and Fayston streets, Roxbury
    11:44 PM

    One stabbed to death, one shot
    44 Marion St., East Boston
    9:24 PM

    Triple shooting
    6 Armadine St., Dorchester
    7:45 PM

    April 22, 2007

    Shot while sitting in car
    35 Harmon St., Mattapan
    11:43 PM

    Police stop machete-wielding thug
    Maverick Square, East Boston
    10:58 PM

    April 14, 2007

    Three teens face armed-robbery charges
    Boston and Dorchester streets, South Boston
    9:55 PM

    April 12, 2007

    Armed robbery at Shaw’s
    33 Kilmarnock St., Fenway / Kenmore
    11:37 PM

    Girl fight leads to gun confrontation
    Humboldt Ave. and Martin Luther King Blvd., Roxbury
    9:05 PM

    April 11, 2007

    Teen pulls gun in argument
    14 Sayward St., Dorchester
    10:52 AM

    April 10, 2007

    Stabbed, beaten with a copper pipe
    Leslie and Dix streets, Dorchester
    8:29 PM

    April 09, 2007

    Van driver shot
    Center Street and Chestnut Avenue, Jamaica Plain
    4:00 PM

    April 08, 2007

    Teen charged with shooting other teen to death
    3146 Washington St., Jamaica Plain
    5:13 AM

    April 06, 2007

    Attacked with bleach
    W. Broadway and F Street, South Boston
    9:40 AM

    March 31, 2007

    Two stabbed in melee
    302 W. Broadway, South Boston
    3:05 AM

    March 30, 2007

    Woman stabbed in ankle
    Mattapan Square, Mattapan
    11:26 PM

    Randolph man shot to death
    69 McLellan St., Dorchester
    7:57 PM

    Man shot; will live
    Blue Hill Avenue and Wilmore Stree, Mattapan
    6:10 PM

    Shot to death on T bus
    Washington Street and Columbia Road, Dorchester
    3:50 PM

    March 28, 2007

    Man shot to death
    870 Blue Hill Ave., Dorchester
    5:22 PM

  • Anonymous

    Yeah, hbf’s kid is gonna be one happy child … if she’s not shot by a drunkard or a drug-graced maniac.

  • http://www.axis-of-aevil.net/ hfb

    Well, I suppose if I lived in or had reason to go anywhere near Southie or Dorchester I’d be worried….but I don’t.

    But I’d rather take my chances here than ever live in Finland again. There are worse things in life than being shot at random.

  • Kristian

    #110

    “Woman stabbed in ankle”

    Or stabbed by a midget :lol:

  • Kristian

    Well, I suppose if I lived in or had reason to go anywhere near Southie or Dorchester I’d be worried….but I don’t.

    hfb, care to comment on the ethnic composition of those areas?

  • Anonymous

    “reinforcing my opinion and joy for escaping Finland with my child.”

    The feeling is mutual :) . Why do you still write on this blog. Didn’t you say that when you finally had got away from this horrible place that Finland and Finns wouldn’t interest you a one bit. Feeling bitter? As that would explain your comments with racist undertones about Finns.

  • Anonymous

    Well, I suppose if I lived in or had reason to go anywhere near Southie or Dorchester I’d be worried

    Southie and Dorchester are amazingly big areas:

    http://www.boston-online.com/crime/murder2006.html

    But is somebody surprised by her lies anymore?

    Anyway, go boldly out but don’t take your kid with you.

  • http://www.axis-of-aevil.net/ hfb

    Kristian – Southie is largely an Irish working-class area and Dorchester is Black and Latino.

    And Anonypundit – I write here because I can, because it clearly riles you the soul of the Finnish nation and because it reaffirms my reasons for leaving.

  • http://bnss.podshow.com DAVE THE MAVE

    “But is somebody surprised by her lies anymore?” – posted by nobody because he/she is scared of even making up a username, much less actually linking to who he/she really is

    You are so insulted, so hurt by hfb’s reaction to her living in a “nice” part of Helsinki and having to step over human feces that you can’t even see straight.

    It is obvious she is a highly paid professional who didn’t live in Itä Pasila nor does she live in Dorchester. What is the big deal with that?

    It is also obvious that her observations in Eira (or whichever nicer part of town she did live in) of drunks was to her disliking. It is also obvious that she is kind of projecting and (overstating?) her dislike of Finland to (some?) excess to justify being able to live in a place she actually feels at home — while her husband has to take up the role of being the “foreigner” (although I seem to recall it was her husband’s job offer in Boston that initiated the sudden move).

    Again, what is the big deal? Why are you so sensitive? Where is your Sisu, man/woman?

  • DAVE THE BRAVE

    Listen DAVE THE MAVE, you don’t have stand up for racists. You really don’t, unless you think that saying something like “niggers keep pooping in public and can’t help it because it’s probably genetic” is okay. Then again, probably you _do_ think it’s okay.

    By the way, there really isn’t “nice parts” in Helsinki the same way as in American cities or even other European ones. That’s the way Helsinki is deliberately planned. And yeah, it’s true, it really is … who am I kidding? You’re not going to believe me because I’m a brainwashed Finn. Right? Perhaps that’s genetic too.

  • tim73

    “Well, I suppose if I lived in or had reason to go anywhere near Southie or Dorchester I’d be worried….but I don’t.”

    “Out of sight, out of mind”-polyanna attitude. Just wait a year or two until the hollow shell called US economy implodes under crushing debt and the real fun starts.

  • http://bnss.podshow.com DAVE THE MAVE

    “By the way, there really isn’t “nice parts” in Helsinki the same way as in American cities or even other European ones. That’s the way Helsinki is deliberately planned. And yeah, it’s true, it really is … who am I kidding? You’re not going to believe me because I’m a brainwashed Finn. Right? Perhaps that’s genetic too.” – Anonymouth = #118.

    Hee hee… Look at the big strong Finn crying in his rubber boots. Get a life. You know as well as I do there is a difference in both price, quality of life and conveniences throughout the neighborhoods of Helsinki. According to you, let me get this straight, Helsinki is “planned” to be different than any other city in the world, and is perfect.

    If what you wrote is true, then how come two apartments of the same size in say, Myllypuro/Malmi and Eira/Töölö differ in price so much?

    Is that racism too?

  • DAVE THE BRAVE

    Well, DAVE THE MAVE, you seem to be stupid as well.

  • Punter

    #104 “Redfern, Palm Island, Sydney, Cronulla” “And let’s face it, you’re not all that bright either.”

    List anonybutt, do you have any idea of what you’re talking about? Do you know anything about Palm Island? It’s place in Australian and indigenous Australian history? It’s position of self rule? It’s problems that have continued under self rule? The current situation there? No I didn’t think so. And why you ask did I think you would not know these things? It’s because you are a simple fool. You sit online and read Wiki and quote seemingly intellectual comments and opinions and curse others for their own intellectual shortcomings (as you did to me.)
    Then at the end of the day, when stating Australia’s obvious “deep rooted racism” you use examples like Redfern, Sydney and Cronulla. As you seem to so enjoy the net, I’ll give you a project. Open up earth google and find Redfern and Cronulla. BTW, a little advice. Just look up Sydney.
    You are the weakest link, GOODBYE

  • Punter

    Hold on. Has my friend anonymous changed his name to DAVE THE BRAVE? Probably just his equally stupid half (yet still twin) brother

  • Anonymous

    Reading texts by stupid people is not rewarding, sorry Punter.

    And DAVE THE MAVE which part of the “there really isn’t “nice parts” in Helsinki the same way as in American cities or even other European ones” didn’t you understand? And this fact doesn’t make Helsinki perfect. A ridiculous idea. Instead it makes Helsinki generally annoying, you can find annoying people in about every part of the city.

  • Punter

    Wipe that egg off your face idiot

  • http://bnss.podshow.com RAVE THE SLAVE

    “And DAVE THE MAVE which part of the “there really isn’t “nice parts” in Helsinki the same way as in American cities or even other European ones” didn’t you understand? And this fact doesn’t make Helsinki perfect. A ridiculous idea. Instead it makes Helsinki generally annoying, you can find annoying people in about every part of the city.” – Anonymous

    Helsinki is particularly annoying when you visit it, I’m sure. Your rebuttal lacks everything sensible.

  • Unit

    Can’t you see when you are getting flamed? The anonyTURD has everybodys goat. Screw you anonyTÚRD, YOU SUCK NUTS. HAHA. YOU degenerate loser!

  • http://bnss.podshow.com RAVE THE SLAVE

    “Can’t you see when you are getting flamed?” – Unit

    I guess not… Do you mean that *gasp* he is winding us up? You’d think he’d come up with something – over the course of the past two years – more than “racist.”

    Anyway, I (as the kids say these days) “pwned” him. :-D

  • truth

    Anonymous is a typical finnish loser. He has no life, no future prospects and is bitter to anyone who manage to get out of this communist shithole. LISTEN TO ME YOU FINNISH FUCK! KILL YOURSELF! YOUR HUMAN TRASH YOU FUCKING SPINELESS COMMUNIST LOSER! FUCKUNG SUBHUMAN

  • Kristian

    Antti rn

    Err…remember the starting point. In the 50’s whole country was practically proletariat.

    In the 50′s, a much greater percentage of the country was agrarian. I don’t think that counts as proletarian, since farms were owned by families. But concerning the rest of society, you’re probably right. E.g. my grandfather worked for VR, the railroad company. He was headmaster of a station in Savo.

    If anything, I think kekkoslovakia produced the finnish middle class, rather than proletariat.

    In my opinion, today’s middle class is the new proletariat. It’s members don’t perform manual work, but they sell their labor as before; they don’t own their means of production, and they have no business capital.

    It’s just a modern, more educated version of proletarianism. In that way, Finland is different from the rest of western Europe. Thanks to kekkoslovakia.

  • Kristian

    hfb: “Southie is largely an Irish working-class area and Dorchester is Black and Latino.

    I don’t know about Southie. Lots of white trash there? I know someone who lives in the Irish section of n.e. Philadelphia. And also someone in the Polish section. Those places are fine; no major crime or danger.

    In terms of relative proportions, major crime in the US is traditionally concentrated in Black and Hispanic/Latino areas of cities.

  • Anonypundit

    “And Anonypundit – I write here because I can, because it clearly riles you the soul of the Finnish nation and because it reaffirms my reasons for leaving.”

    No it doesn’t rile me up, I coudn’t give a flying fuck about your opinions. What does intrest me is why did you trumpet the fact that once you leave, you don’t want to have anything to do with Finland and Finns but yet you still keep on commenting. Why?

    “Anonymous is a typical finnish loser. He has no life, no future prospects and is bitter to anyone who manage to get out of this communist shithole. LISTEN TO ME YOU FINNISH FUCK! KILL YOURSELF! YOUR HUMAN TRASH YOU FUCKING SPINELESS COMMUNIST LOSER! FUCKUNG SUBHUMAN”

    Spoken like a true winner. Might I suggest you take a good look of yourself and get commited into a mental institute as those “smart” pills you bought from the home shopping network clearly aren’t working.

    Now go troll somewhere else.

  • Freeridin’ Franklin

    Ah, the anonymous chorus of the red herrings come out as if they might be doing anything but reinforcing my opinion and joy for escaping Finland with my child.

    But why do you need reinforcement? If I had a chance of living and working on the east coast (preferrably NYC, but I’d really take any place), I’d be on the next plane and wouldn’t spend much thought on Finland. Why not just be happy with what you have?

    Still, I merely tried to point out that social problems in Finland and the US have different manifestations and it is quite subjective how much those bother you. I’ve learned to avoid Punavuori hobos since age five, so I’m not too shocked by them. Many Finns, on the other hand, fear drug addicts to an irrational degree.

  • Kristian

    I’d be on the next plane

    Franklin, why don’t you just find a company in Finland that will relocate you?

    They’d handle all the details—work permit, living arrangements, etc. It’s the easiest way. Obviously you’ve got the language skills for it.

    Many Finns, on the other hand, fear drug addicts to an irrational degree.

    About two-hours-ago, I was accosted outside the Itäkeskus Metro station. First time this year, so it must be the change in seasons that makes people a bit crazy.

    He was aggressive—even ran across the street toward me, yelling “Tulepa tänne! Tulepa tänne!” He wanted money and cigarettes. And maybe to assert himself in an anti-social way.

    Had to give him a pretty hard shove when he got too close. Not sure if he was a druggie or just a young alcoholic, but I don’t let those types near me.

    I don’t want to risk getting stuck with a needle, so I feel it’s always best to send a clear message from the beginning.

    I see too many people who let them hover within their personal space as they’re (aggressively) begging. Not safe.

    But, not all alcohol/drug addicts are like that. Only a chosen few I guess.

  • Freeridin’ Franklin

    Franklin, why don’t you just find a company in Finland that will relocate you?

    That’s plan B, right after finding €10M on the street.

    But seriously, I kind of like being in control of my own fate, so I prefer to do my work through my business from now on. I’d love to do some contract work abroad, though.

    Had to give him a pretty hard shove when he got too close. Not sure if he was a druggie or just a young alcoholic, but I don’t let those types near me.

    Probably your regular east Helsinki speed freak/polyabuser.

  • http://www.axis-of-aevil.net/ hfb

    Anonypundit – “No it doesn’t rile me up, I coudn’t give a flying fuck about your opinions.”

    LOL…I got a good 15 minutes of chuckling out of that one. *snicker* Yeah, I always stalk and harrass people whose opinion mean nothing to me. I realise it’s personal and that your English usage indicates that you are a native speaker, likely someone I know/know of but are too much of a pussy to put the name to the mits. *shrug*

    Freeridin’ – “But why do you need reinforcement? If I had a chance of living and working on the east coast (preferrably NYC, but I’d really take any place), I’d be on the next plane and wouldn’t spend much thought on Finland. Why not just be happy with what you have?

    Oh, I’m happy with the move….but with mixed feelings and four years invested in Finland, it’s hard not to wonder if I somehow wasn’t strong enough, didn’t try hard enough, etc. Hanging around here simply removes the doubts I have along those lines.

    Kristian – I don’t know Southie much as, well, it’s an area you don’t go into unless you live there or have business there. I believe the crime is mostly either mobsters or, how shall I say, racial in nature, i.e. darkies don’t last long in southie.

  • http://www.finlandforthought.net Phil

    Tomi/tomia/another/anonymous – The only request I ever have for commenters is that they pick a username and stick to it.

  • UNIT

    heh heh, good job Phil!!

  • Anonymous

    Yes sir, you got me now worried and ashamed. Hope it’s not too late to make a deal. If you folks don’t publish my real real name or IP address I’ll promise to shut up. I’ll go even further, I will silently agree on everything with you guys, hell, I promise to tell everybody I know that the Finns are poor brainwashed idiots pooping in public because of genetic reasons.

    I’d even told you the names of those – at least – two other anonymouses writing along the same lines if I just knew them. But I’ll give you all my assistance in finding out who they are. I’ll give my mother’s name, for heaven’s sake, she once said that Australia is not the best place on earth and Boston somewhat dangerous. All you need to do is ask.

    And of course hfb is not a racist, Punter hypocrite or Unit an informant – or whoever it was who asked master Phil for these corrective but, don’t get me wrong, rightful measures. What on earth was I thinking?

    Please forgive me and heil. ;-)

  • Anonypundit

    #138

    My apolgies. I was honestly interested about hfb’s motives to continue to comment when couple of months ago she said she wouldn’t. It’s none of my bussiness of course so I would like to apoligise hfb for pestering her.

    “likely someone I know/know of”

    No I don’t know you so there is no need to feel paranoid. All I was trying to achieve was that you would sometimes step out of your own shoes for a while and think how people might feel about some of your insulting generalisations.

    I’ll stop pestering you about it.

  • Punter

    We may not be all that but you are still a fool with egg on your face.

  • Nimi muutettu

    Must say I don’t get this bashing-with-the-big-racist-stick thing at all.

    Where’s it coming from anyway?

    If I were to broach any kind of EUR 0.02 opinion it would be that hfb doth protest too much, but that were I in her shoes I’d probably be protesting even louder – it’s a pretty natural defence mechanism to badmouth the other place to death just to comfort oneself that the decision to relocate was a right one, and it’s something that a lot of people will go through, particularly at the point where they’ve decided to “settle” somewhere (keeping this discussion on track with this rather silly “lifer” thing). None of us wants to feel a fool for being where we are, and this inevitably adds a filter or a set of blinkers to our reactions to what is going on around us. Call it protecting one’s personal investment in the place if you like. What makes the ex-pat an ex-pat is the fact that in most cases they have not made that investment.

    Not THAT long ago, the writer’s highly entertaining blog was quite often telling a different story about where “home” was –

    “Returning to the US after being away for three years was almost as bizarre as being dropped onto another world after being abducted by aliens. I will admit that it was nice that everyone spoke English in spite of strangers making frequent comments on how funny my accent was or asking me where I was from.

    I remain jet lagged, tired and dazed from the trip so it will be a few more days before returning to my old tired and lazy self. I have a renewed appreciation for my adopted home that only spending two weeks in the heartland of flyover country with it’s miles of strip malls, massive SUVs and nearly ubiquitous “Support Our Troops” ribbons on their bumpers could provide. It was good to see my family, but I’m glad to be home again.”

    In January 2006 “home” was categorically – almost “in-your-face, America” in Finland, and there is something quite poignant in the stark difference between those two paragraphs quoted above and the tone of what has come in the past two or three months. I can only assume – since bipolar disorder does not compute – something very very bad happened along with the joy of parenthood. Which is a shame.

    But it doesn’t have anything to do with racism, so leave it out, alright?

  • mh

    Yes, hfb’s change of direction was quite notable. Maybe she grew slowly to hate Finland but tried to make things look allright by writing only nice things? Some people might have identified her as a “friend”, a person who writes only nice things about Finland, and felt quite devastated by her change of direction. It’s a good thing to give us finns a slap in the face every now and then, lest we think we live in some kind of shangri-la.

    However, it must be noted that everything that could go wrong with hfb’s last months here indeed seemed to go wrong and she sure wasn’t shy to tell us about her feelings. The picture her words conveyd of Finland was some kind of hell on earth. ;) It’s been said finns don’t see the shortcomings of their country. That’s probably true as I have myself developed a much more critical eye towards Finland during the time I’ve been a reader of this blog. I think the opposite might be true as well. If you really, really hate a place, you see only the things that are bad and wrong there.

    This episode was a year or so ago. People should give hfb a break already, no matter how much they disagreed with her back then.

  • http://www.axis-of-aevil.net/ hfb

    MH – I’d like to think that I’m still a friend of Finland as my feelings are still very conflicted. One doesn’t have to have only happy thoughts about a place to feel warm thoughts. As the great Mark Twain once said, “Familiarity breeds contempt…and children”. :) I think my having to be completely sober for 9 months made my irritation with the extreme number of drunks fouling my neighbourhood last summer more profound…as well as making me see just how much social life in Finland seems to revolve around booze. Sure, you don’t have to drink to be social, but it sure helps. To be sure, there are lots of things I absolutely loathe about the US, but I haven’t quite yet quantified what it was that made me force the issue on leaving Finland. Perhaps lots of little things. Hanging around here is partly my own need to figure that out and partly to give the furriner’s view of things, however painful or seemingly biased it may be to Finns.

    There were three people who said the lack of a Finnish name diminished their opportunities which I personally appreciated reading since even though my daughter has a Finnish name, the moment she speaks she’ll likely be tagged as ‘not our kind’ since she won’t be living there. She’ll be teased here for her name, especially since the Boston dialect makes it sound like ‘Chrysler’ :) but kids tease everyone, even with the most banal names.

    Nimi muutettu – If you spent any amount of time in the armpit of the US known as flyover country, you’d likely think the Gulag or Gitmo would seem a pleasant alternative so I’m not sure if that quoted passage is a valediction to the US, but of relief to be not living there. I’ve spent my entire life living all over the world to avoid being there. :) Of course, the row I had with my mother while there which led to us not talking until the week before she died also didn’t help. On the flipside, I do miss my sisters and am occasionally insane enough to fancy going back there so as to have them nearby while raising my daugher. And then I remember that I’m not religious or conservative or a hick. :)

  • Hank W.

    I don’t know if Finns deny the shortcomings of their country. Heck, after all we ask all the foreigners *why did you come here* to check if they’re mad, as everybody has always aspired to leave from here. Though then when you start to compare, be it Kazakhstan or Germany or Estonia you start to appreciate certain things and see that while the country is not perfect there are places things are much worse. Then again it must be remembered that the Finns have no other “home” to go back to, so of course the country is perfect for the natives. And I don’t think anybody appreciates some outsider coming to besserwisser on how things are taken care of. Then again I do cringe of all the froth-mouthed pr that the Finnophiles spew out, the truth is somewhere there in the middle.

    At the end of the day I look at the rival Sweden and go look at http://www.thelocal.se discussions. Foreigners whining 1:1 of the same things foreigners whine about in Finland. So either it is something rotten north of Denmark, or foreigners just whine as it is their nature :lol:

  • Kristian

    Well Hank, Sweden is a Socialist shithole. What else can be said?

  • Kristian

    …but it has very nice scenery and nature. So it’s not all bad :-)

  • Hank W.

    And the princess has big bazongas.

  • http://www.axis-of-aevil.net/ hfb

    What, doesn’t Halonen have big hooters…or was that her moustache? :D

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