Ostovoima: Low purchasing power for the highly educated in Finland
@ 6:18 pm 
After living in Germany (Saksa) for many years, this is no surprise to me. In fact, it’s quite obvious. According to an advance release of a report by the EU which examines the purchasing power (ostovoima) of university educated professionals:
“Suomi keikkuu viimeisenä ja Saksa ykkösenä. Saksassa ostovoima on lähes kaksi kertaa niin iso kuin Suomessa.“
It states that Finland has the lowest purchasing power, and Germany has the highest. Furthermore, Germany has nearly double the purchasing power of Finland. A few other countries that beat Finland are England, Holland, Belgium and Spain. How can this be?
“Heikkoa ostovoimaa selittävät kova verotus ja kilpailun puute. [...] Tutkimus selittää Suomen heikkoa menestystä ankaralla verotuksella ja korkeilla hinnoilla sekä osin myös alhaisilla palkoilla.“
Again, no surprise, it reads that the poor purchasing power is because Finland is severely overtaxed and there is very little competition in the consumer marketplace (in my opinion, the low-competition is a macroeconomic result of both, overtaxation and inflexible unions). All this with relatively low salaries.
My wife and I have a home in Germany but occasionally spend time in Finland to be with family. I can tell you from personal experience that it’s true: The difference in purchasing power between Germany and Finland is quite enormous.
We always bring food, beer, wine, building supplies, clothing, etc., from Germany so we don’t have to buy them in Finland. The savings pay for our travel expenses and more. I even brought a whole shipment of wood and cabinets from Germany to renovate our summer cabin and flat in Finland—saved 30% overall, including truck rental and travel costs.
A few things to consider:
- Finland has 22% regular VAT and 17% food VAT, which make it the second-highest taxed country in Europe when these amounts are combined. Only Denmark is higher.
- Automobiles in Finland cost roughly double the German price due to Autovero; a family can lose 10K€ to 20K€ in one shot to this tax, especially if two cars are needed. Public transit availability is not very good, despite 1M+ residents in the Helsinki region. Many families need two cars.
- The state-run Alko, along with Alcohol Policy, means that even social drinking costs people dearly; many times the central European price.
- Overly-high Income Taxation causes a sizable Tax Wedge that ensures both, low-Gross and low-Net Salaries. Also, quite astonishingly, Finland publishes the private income information of all its residents for anyone in the world to inspect (verotietojen julkistaminen)!
The average Finnish family, even if it practices frugality, loses many thousands of Euros each year to the assorted ripoffs listed above—along with many more. Everything from Restaurants to Haircuts to Taxi Fares in Finland costs about double the normal central European price. And Finnish salaries don’t compensate for the overpayment.
Why oh why dont you just stay in Germany, everyone on this site is really sick of you telling us how everywhere else is better than Finland, you really seem to have some kind of twisted illusion that your life will suddenly become great if you move to Switzerland or Germany so maybe you might consider that because its obvious by now that Finland is too backward for you, so please do us all a favour and follow your dream.
Comment by sppuuddy — Sat, Apr 28th, 2007 @ 6:34 pm
No, it’s not only me this time. The EU via Taloussanomat is saying it now. I’m just the messenger here
http://www.taloussanomat.fi/tyo-ja-ura/2007/04/26/Koulutetut+ovat+k%F6yhi%E4+Suomessa/20079999/106
Comment by Kristian — Sat, Apr 28th, 2007 @ 6:39 pm
Kristian:
“I’m just the messenger here”
But me thinks you sent the same message already before.
And the same questions remain in connection to this study. Is it PPP adjusted (which it isn’t, at least if comments on TAX-level having a bearing on finnish byuing power)?
Comment by Thomas — Sat, Apr 28th, 2007 @ 6:52 pm
On the other hand, in Germany, Herr Ingenieur have been traditionally paid enough to support Hannelore + kinder. Here Mrs. Redneck goes to work and doesn’t need to be supported.
Comment by Antti rn — Sat, Apr 28th, 2007 @ 7:30 pm
“Herr Ingenieur have been traditionally paid enough to support Hannelore + kinder.”
Being able to live on one income is definitely an advantage.
But it’s not necessarily due to being paid more. Rather, it’s about the low cost of living. You can live dirt-cheaply in Germany which is very helpful for saving money when you’re still young. Even on one income. In Finland you have to make more sacrifices.
That’s one reason we chose not to live in Finland during those years…..although we’re still kind of young
Comment by Kristian — Sat, Apr 28th, 2007 @ 7:40 pm
Kristian: They know it all already. Don’t expect them to agree with you though! They’re Finns. Their intense National pride can prevent rational thought. They would rather go into denial than accept, especially from a foreigner, that there is anything wrong with Finland.
My guess is that apart from the odd curious foreigner, most of the people viewing this site are Finns, or Uncle Tom expats, that have bought into all that nonsense about living in Finland being equivalent to winning the lottery
Kristian give up, you’re wasting your time!
Expect loads of personal abuse, but little rational argument
Comment by Anonymous — Sat, Apr 28th, 2007 @ 8:36 pm
Kristian,
I don’t deny that the highly educated have lower purchasing power thanin some other European countries as the graph suggests. However, you seem to generalise from this fact to the erroneous assumption that Finns as such have low purchasing power. In fact, PPP adjusted GDP per capita in Finland is higher than in Germany, Britain and Spain. So it is not an issue of purchasing power as such but with how wealth is distributed. In this light, the rest of your post makes little sense.
I would speculate that the reason for the low relative purchasing power of the highly educated in Finland is in part due to taxation (though I’m agnostic about whether this is a bad thing) and partly to do with the fact there are an excess of highly educated people - which depresses wages for them, and a dirth of vocationally educated people - increasing their wages.
Comment by Jon — Sat, Apr 28th, 2007 @ 9:07 pm
It’s interesting that Taloussanomat now admits that the notoriously low Finnish wages do effect purchasing power. Generally the mantra from the right has been that wages should be kept low to avoid inflation (what’s in Finland is called “maltillinen tuloratkaisu”). (Of course interests from capital assets magically never cause inflation.)
Comment by Erik — Sat, Apr 28th, 2007 @ 9:22 pm
Kristian has only stated the obvious. The problem is the same here as it is in America - the truth sucks and no one wants to hear it. Well, that and pride.
Comment by gopha — Sat, Apr 28th, 2007 @ 9:33 pm
Jon: “So it is not an issue of purchasing power as such but with how wealth is distributed.”
A poor person, or low-income worker, in Finland is NOT better-off than his German counterpart—not even better-off than the eastern German. The lower-echelon Finnish worker might get paid more, but he must pay ultra-high consumer prices. Relatively speaking, his standard of living is about the same.
I have lived in the so-called worst parts of eastern Germany—for slightly over 50€ per-month(!) at one point to save money—and can say it’s no different than Kontula or Espoon Keskus. Same thing.
But maybe there are some advantages. For example, each person in eastern Germany has a private doctor. In fact, working as a programmer for a consulting firm, my healthcare plan was identical to the poorest park bum’s. No need to choose between the anonymous terveyskeskus or private insurance.
The educated have better purchasing power in Germany than in Finland. But it’s NOT at the expense of the lower strata. Quite the contrary. A well-functioning economy benefits everyone.
Comment by Kristian — Sat, Apr 28th, 2007 @ 9:59 pm
Kristian: I have lived in the so-called worst parts of eastern Germanyâ€â€for slightly over 50€ per-month(!)
Really? How much was the rent?
Comment by Anonymous — Sat, Apr 28th, 2007 @ 10:16 pm
Having read this blog for a while as a non-Finnish speaking foreigner interested in Finland, I would just like to point out that the content in FFT has became MUCH too repetitive of late. With every post from Kristian being identical, the opportunities for interesting or worthwile debate are obviously decidedly limited. People cannot simply debate high versus low tax over and over again. It’s becoming (become?) highly irritating and if the topic posts do not begin to display some of their previous diversity, I for one (and I expect it would not be just for one) will have to reluctantly give up on FFT. Come on Phil, please remind Kristian that nobody likes a bore.
Comment by anonymous — Sat, Apr 28th, 2007 @ 10:26 pm
Kristian,
I hate to argue over this but I have to question your logic. Finland has per capita GDP of around €32,800 adjusted for PPP. Germany has slightly less at €31,400. Thus, if one segment of Finnish society has less than the Germans another must have more.
The only possible way Germans could all have more purchasing power than Finns is if they borrow more to finance their spending or if the Finns save more. Alternatively, it could be that Finns are not counted a spending money on higher education or whatever because it is channelled through the state - but that’s clearly not what you mean.
Comment by Jon — Sat, Apr 28th, 2007 @ 10:36 pm
“I hate to argue over this but I have to question your logic. Finland has per capita GDP of around €32,800 adjusted for PPP. Germany has slightly less at €31,400.”
- Maybe it is all being shipped out as exports?
One important issue here is that one excuse for the high VAT is to discourage consumption. So this post actually documents that, at least in that respect, the high VAT works as they want it to.
Kristian,
Keep these coming. Most of the reasons for avoiding a return to Finland involve financial discrimination against the middle and upper classes and overbilled and underdone social welfare.
Now I can understand the thought that all these post seem the same, if you have no money and are on the receiving end of all this taxation. Why don’t guys just say what you feel about those who are doing better than you; ‘Shut up and pay us.’
Comment by Fred Fry — Sat, Apr 28th, 2007 @ 11:02 pm
“I for one (and I expect it would not be just for one) will have to reluctantly give up on FFT.”
Can you take that escaped mental hospital patient Thomas with you?
Comment by redman — Sat, Apr 28th, 2007 @ 11:39 pm
Kristian, well-done. Keep it coming. The more traceable evidence, the better. Cheers!
Others, has it crossed your mind that the reason why Finnish papers are barely starting to acknowledge this is because they could not openly take a stab at this country, even on self-evident issues, under the previous SDP -lead governments, for fear of communist-style repression?
Now, we finally have a Rightist government with liberal tendencies and one of their first actions was to create a proper Ministry of Immigration. Another was to fan out plans for reducing taxation on food and for eliminating some of the punitive taxation on ownership. Maybe there’s still hope for this country, after all…
Comment by Martin-Éric — Sat, Apr 28th, 2007 @ 11:56 pm
If Kristian has truly lived in Germany, he ought to be perfectly aware of which effect the German tax system has on this study. It’s pretty cheeky that he doesn’t say it aloud.
German taxation is based on families, rather than individuals. Thus it’s finacially possible for a wife to stay home as a Hausfrau. Academic housewives are neatly wiped out of the studies such as this one, whereas in Finland they’re having low-paid jobs in libraries, Kela offices and kindergartens. As well, if you have kids then possible child benefits (as far as I know) are paid through your salary, and not as a social transfer - which also makes a difference.
I’m probably economically much more liberal than Kristian is, but I find his way to argue for his cause quite dull. No sane person argues today that Finland should take its example from a country like Germany. It’s among Europe’s most potential fiscal disasters and has only managed to hang on because of their serious wage constraint over the last few years. Firms have prospered, but the German consumers have not. Their purchase power has gone down not up.
Do you follow any news when you’re in Germany? Or do you get your information merely from your local friends who, as I assume, are some sort of aristocrats?
Comment by Aapo — Sun, Apr 29th, 2007 @ 12:14 am
The problem with Kristian’s repetetive posts is that he constantly, and for ideological reasons, barks under the wrong tree. Taxes are probably* marginally higher in Finland than in Germany, but it’s not like that money dissappear from the economy, it’s just redirected to some other use. And what the hell has public tax information to do with purchasing power?
* but I wouldn’t take Kristian’s word for it. He has a history of getting his facts wrong.
Comment by Erik — Sun, Apr 29th, 2007 @ 12:19 am
Huh? I think this purchasing power disparity has been every now and then in the news at least since the introduction of Euro. Has the government been denying supply of paper for the critical papers or intimidated editors? That’s the communist style. Worst thing emanating from SDP is probably Paavo Lipponen calling some journalists grudging wethats.
Yeah, generally the wage you earn in this country has nothing to do with your education, but the direct damage you can inflict by striking. Engineers can hit their asses on the bench for quite a long time before anybody noticing, but if you stop the bloody paper machine, you make the company lose 1…2km of paper per minute.
Another aspect is the traditional ideal for the “academic poverty”, i.e. you work for the love of your field and fatherland, rather than for the money.
Comment by Antti rn — Sun, Apr 29th, 2007 @ 12:23 am
@18: There you go, Erik - EU tax revenues 2005 nicely and neatly:
aapocalypsenow.blogspot.com/2007/03/tax-revenue-in-eu-countries.html
(1995 figure in brackets)
1)Sweden 52.1% (49.7)
2)Denmark 51.2 (49.8)
3)Belgium 47.7 (45.9)
4)Norway 45.0 (42.3)
5)France 45.8 (44.5)
6)Finland 44.0 (46.3)
7)Austria 43.6 (43.6)
8)Italy 40.8 (41.8)
9)Slovenia 40.7 (40.5)
10)Germany 40.2 (41.3)
Comment by Aapo — Sun, Apr 29th, 2007 @ 12:23 am
In terms of purchase power Finland certainly comes behind Germany, in terms of the health of public finance, Germany is FAAAAAR behind. Choose which ever rocks your boat.
Oh and btw Kristian, you really need to come up with something different to post every now and then. Everyone here knows already your not satisfied with level of PP of Finns.
Comment by olli — Sun, Apr 29th, 2007 @ 2:16 am
Yep,,,thats why they kill them selfs. and drink till they get drunk and kill others..they go the ol head up the ass sickness. Its so sad to see this great country have its head up its sorry ass.
You see, I come to realize that
1. the Finns love being taxed up the ass
2. The fins think its normal common place to have low self esteem
3. To be used like a whore by the ruling class is normal
4. That rather then change things we Finns will be the drunk trailer trash of the planet.
5. And how the Finns love their high taxes.
I say, let them be taxed to death. I say, they made their tax bed now let them drown in it.
Comment by hill billy — Sun, Apr 29th, 2007 @ 2:18 am
Jon: “I hate to argue over this but I have to question your logic. Finland has per capita GDP of around €32,800 adjusted for PPP. Germany has slightly less at €31,400. Thus, if one segment of Finnish society has less than the Germans another must have more.”
It’s a good observation. But we have to remember that the figures are per capita. That means a housewife or partially employed wife in Germany doesn’t increase the official GDP-per-capita number, but rather dilutes it.
Another interesting point to consider is that western Germany is not a worker state like Finland; it harbors accumulated wealth. And much of that wealth produces investment income. Even though it augments the tax base, investment income doesn’t increase GDP.
In western Germany, it’s very possible—and common—for someone who owns a house or flat outright (no loan), and has some money invested, to derive enough investment income so that he doesn’t need to work. Or maybe he has a part-time hobby-business to supplement his investment income.
Both of the above situations are possible in Germany due to the low cost of living. It really is dirt-cheap compared to Finland. I’d say 8K€/year can support a person semi-comfortably if he doesn’t need to pay mortgage or rent. Maybe less. That means only about 150K€ principle is needed to derive that income amount safely.
Incidentally, both of the above scenarios are also common in Switzerland—another country that doesn’t necessarily have stellar GDP (PPP). But like Germany, it has wealth. In Finland, we tend to only measure standard-of-living in terms of GDP. I guess that’s because there is no wealth in Finland, so we lack the frame-of-reference.
Comment by Kristian — Sun, Apr 29th, 2007 @ 3:01 am
Yep, send in a bad message, and the wall goes up.
I tell Finns about their stupid deployment to help save Thugs and Killers in Lebanon, and guess what? Same sad, question.
Sorry to bring up your failures, but someone has to.
Comment by winter “Against stupidity, the gods themselves are helpless.†— Sun, Apr 29th, 2007 @ 3:52 am
“That means a housewife or partially employed wife in Germany doesn’t increase the official GDP-per-capita number, but rather dilutes it.”
Yes, thus diluting the purchasing power of the family.
“Even though it augments the tax base, investment income doesn’t increase GDP.”
Where on Earth did you get that idea from? GDP is not based solely on employment income. I can’t imagine where you got the idea that it is.
Comment by Jon — Sun, Apr 29th, 2007 @ 7:13 am
“Yes, thus diluting the purchasing power of the family.”
It’s a choice that’s available in Germany. Perfectly legitimate. Do you have a point with this?
“GDP is not based solely on employment income.”
You’re right. I mistakenly stated that investment income isn’t included in GDP. But since it’s used for Consumption, it is in fact included, albeit indirectly. If I’m not mistaken, employment income would be considered Investment by business and would thereby increase GDP directly. Maybe I’m wrong about that?
Nevertheless, living on small amounts of investment income, or a family living on one income, are lifestyle choices that many western Germans can and do make. Both cases dilute the GDP-per-capita number. But it doesn’t mean that they are poor.
Initially, you implied/questioned whether the welfare recipient (someone who actually is poor) or a low-echelon worker in Germany is responsible for the lower GDP (PPP)—per-capita number. I don’t think so. I attribute the lower number to the two groups that I described above. I might create another post on this to demonstrate the difference in purchasing power, even from a poor person’s perspective.
Comment by Kristian — Sun, Apr 29th, 2007 @ 7:33 am
As a Finn, I am…
1) Appalled at the poor buying power that is evident every time I travel abroad, or from my experiences of living abroad
2) Disappointed that most of the folks in my country are reluctant to admit to this problem, and prefer to bully those who bring the problem into the open
3) Not going to sit on my ass like the rest of my countrymen — rather, I’ll do what I can to let my representative in the Eduskunta know that I want a more dynamic economy that rewards work and spending, like any decent economy tends to do
4) Going to start a business in Estonia if this shit goes on for very much longer. They at least seem to know how to create an environment that’s conducive to entrepreneurship
People… wake up. It’s our country. The world won’t give a crap whether 5 million Finns go bankrupt. Ensuring we have a competitive economy is our responsibility, and it starts with setting the right kinds of incentives. Buying power is one of them.
Comment by Markus — Sun, Apr 29th, 2007 @ 8:23 am
Yawn, the same old story again from Kristian of espoo, just go back to Germany where the grass is sooo very green.
Comment by pi — Sun, Apr 29th, 2007 @ 9:19 am
Congatulations Krisse, you’re one step closer to understanding how the Finnish system works. Next you probably want to find out why … just kidding, of course you don’t. And Markus, I’m sure you know what you’re talking about, but it’s still a bit of a mystery how one of the best performing economies in the world could go bankrupt. It will naturally but how?
Comment by Anonymous — Sun, Apr 29th, 2007 @ 11:56 am
It’s not very hard people, if you don’t like Kristian’s posts, don’t read them. I agree that they are a bit repititious but nevertheless, important.
My wife and I have young children and need to buy stuff from abroad, it’s too expensive in Finland. Case in Point: We purchased a double buggy from ebayUK that costed about 550€ including shipping costs(50£). The same buggy would have costed us almost 900€ in Finland. The price difference would have been even greater if we would have purchased last summer when we were in the U.S.
Comment by Unit — Sun, Apr 29th, 2007 @ 12:12 pm
I would just like to point out that the content in FFT has became MUCH too repetitive of late
Blame me, I asked Kristian to write a post on this article, even though he just wrote about purchasing power a week ago. But when an article like this is published, do you really expect us to ignore it?!
We write everyday on here, often several times in one day, and we’ve been doing it for 3 years now, and blogs discuss “niche” topics…you’re bound to hit the same topics many times.
Comment by Phil — Sun, Apr 29th, 2007 @ 12:29 pm
The problem with these nice posts just happens to be that, if containing too many kristianisms, they may harm your cause. Those who agree with you already keep agreeing but those who you might convince won’t listen you anymore. Much better result could be achieved if the analysis would be based on facts and not Kristian-style pseudologic - for which this entry is a great example.
I would heartily see Finland overhauling its tax system, reforming the crap out of its labour market, makings its public finances more sustainable and taking on the middle class’ cheekiest welfare privileges, yet would definitely emigrate at the first moment were guys like Kristian let to rule this country.
Take those consumption taxes, for instance. Why do you kick so much fuss over them? Economically speaking, it’s quite a liberalist idea to shift emphasis from direct taxes onto indirect ones, an essential step towards flat-rate taxation, and even still you preach against it. Why? Especially as the case is that if your sales taxes are first high and then slightly lowered it’s usually the salesman who reaps the benefits. The prices won’t go down.
Speaking of VAT, then here are facts:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_added_tax#Tax_Rates
No drastic differences out there, if you ask me. Finland has 22%, Ireland 21% and the flat-rate Slovakia 19%.
Comment by Aapo — Sun, Apr 29th, 2007 @ 2:03 pm
The same buggy would have costed us almost 900€ in Finland.
Well, there seems to be a great business opportunity for someone there. Unfortunately that kind of opportunities exist only in parallel universes, not in free market economies. Sure, there are businesses in Finland - the same way as everywhere - which aim at trying to rip off the stupid, but if you’re not stupid you buy elsewhere.
And what about this study then? Everybody who has the least interest in these things knows that an average white-collar worker in Finland is worse off than most of his counterparts in the rich countries. Ask AKAVA if you want to know why. People are paid more or less according to their marker value. Let’s educate less engineers, MDs or whatever and - simbsalabim! - their wages go up. The total tax rate is pretty much the same in comparable countries but the progression is a bit steeper in Finland. And the “too” equal income distribution doesn’t help either - in a restaurant, say, I have to pay for the relative high wage the waiters earn.
Lack of competition? Hard to believe. Lidl certainly came here in order to prove that the prices were too high. Now their prices are about the same there than in neighboring Prisma.
Anyway, and once again, Finland is one of the least expensive countries in the world. And I’m sure that those with a political brainwash agenda can’t accept nor understand this.
Comment by Anonymous — Sun, Apr 29th, 2007 @ 2:13 pm
As for our academic purchase power, I guess no one has brought up the collective bargaining yet? (That TUPO thing.)
I’d say that the “solidar wage policy” might be blamed to some extent. It has held back wages in more dynamic sectors and set them artifically high in professions where productivity hasn’t been able to keep up.
Comment by Aapo — Sun, Apr 29th, 2007 @ 2:16 pm
It has held back wages in more dynamic sectors
Perhaps, but the fact is that TUPO only determines the minimum wage. Actual wages are higher in the “dynamic sectors”.
Comment by Anonymous — Sun, Apr 29th, 2007 @ 2:52 pm
Finns are also taxed by their state protected Oligopolies that run cartels
In 2006 K-Markets gross profit margin was over 20%! In Germany and the UK the supermarkets make less than half that.
The red tape and bureaucracy imposed by the Finnish government acts as a barrier to entry to the Finnish domestic market, blocking out potential new entrants from abroad that run more efficient businesses. These foreign businesses could offer Finnish customers lower prices and better quality products.
The aim of course is to protect Finnish jobs.
Finnish sacred cows including:
Valio
K-Market
S-Market
Stockmann
HK
Koti-Pizza
Exploit Finnish consumers act as tax collectors for the Finnish elite. They are purveyors of over-priced rubbish.
Wake-up and smell the coffee Finns. Protectionism and cartels are making you the poor nation of Europe
Comment by Anonymous — Sun, Apr 29th, 2007 @ 3:02 pm
“Why oh why dont you just stay in Germany, everyone on this site is really sick of you telling us how everywhere else is better than Finland, you really seem to have some kind of twisted illusion that your life will suddenly become great if you move to Switzerland or Germany so maybe you might consider that because its obvious by now that Finland is too backward for you, so please do us all a favour and follow your dream.
”
sppuuddy I submit that it is you who should have a look in the mirror if this is the right place of residence for you. I for one would much rather have people here who take an interest in public matters and try to improve them than people who think anything that’s bad isn’t allowed to talk about. What we need is twice the amount of Kritians and half the amount spuddies.
Comment by Anton — Sun, Apr 29th, 2007 @ 3:12 pm
Koti-Pizza
LOL!
Comment by Anonymous — Sun, Apr 29th, 2007 @ 4:07 pm
What we need is twice the amount of Kritians
I’d prefer somebody who knew what he was talking about. Or at least capable of learning.
Comment by Anonymous — Sun, Apr 29th, 2007 @ 4:11 pm
Phil: “Blame me, I asked Kristian to write a post on this article”
Yes, I debated about whether to give you the customary “hat tip” credit for sending me the article. But I decided against it. That way you could remain the good guy here. You should’ve kept quiet
Aapo: “Take those consumption taxes, for instance. Why do you kick so much fuss over them?”
Because if I only mention income taxes, then someone will inevitably tell me “Oh, they’re only a few points over the European average. What’s the big deal?” And they’d be right. That’s why I try to provide a more complete picture.
But even that doesn’t seem to work, because I still see comments like the following…
Aapo: “No drastic differences out there, if you ask me. Finland has 22%, Ireland 21% and the flat-rate Slovakia 19%.”
No drastic differences until you look at the next column which shows that food VAT is 17%, which seems to be well over double the European average. When a family spends 10K per-year on food, then it is significant. And there’s also the tax wedge on restaurant services. If I’m not mistaken, it is 22%.
All these are too high and make a good point for lowering income taxes to compensate. Do I really need to spell that part out? Or do you think people can figure it out for themselves?
Aapo: “Those who agree with you already keep agreeing but those who you might convince won’t listen you anymore. Much better result could be achieved if the analysis would be based on facts and not Kristian-style pseudologic - for which this entry is a great example.”
My aim is not to convince anyone, because most already know it. I simply want to give those who are in basic agreement a way of looking at the problem AND how it affects them personally.
And just because _you_ call it pseudologic, doesn’t mean it is. In this case, how can it be? I’m simply stating what’s in a CURRENT NEWS article and recounting my own experiences. Then I list some topics we’ve already covered on FFT.
I realize some of it is redundant. But not everyone here is a regular reader. For those who are bored with it, just go to the next article. There’s plenty of other good reading here on FFT. Don’t let my occasional writing spoil your day.
Comment by Kristian — Sun, Apr 29th, 2007 @ 4:34 pm
Finland’s VAT on food will be 12% later this year. Satisfied?
Comment by Anonymous — Sun, Apr 29th, 2007 @ 5:05 pm
17% indirect tax on food in Finland! That’s immoral. Poor Finns. Finns love to brag about how egalitarian their country is. Well, I wouldn’t like to be living on Finnish wages and have to cope with a 17% tax on every item of food bought. The EU should intervene and harmonise all indirect taxes on food across the Union at 0%
Comment by Anonymous — Sun, Apr 29th, 2007 @ 5:06 pm
K-Market profit margins + 17% food taxes + low wages = poverty
Comment by Anonymous — Sun, Apr 29th, 2007 @ 5:07 pm
We for one will be black balling those Finnish sacred cows. At least most of the foreign student will be boycotting those cows this upcoming year…lets rock and roll…we have been boycotting the local cows for 6 months..yeah, only 25 student for now..but the word is getting out fast…BOY COT. Any one know if LIDL is a sacred cow ? So far we are shopping there for most everything.2 more years of school 2 more years to boy cot high taxes… Life is great. ALL this in support for the Finnish working class.. uuuurahhhh. I support the Finish bussiness people that want to actively reduce the cartel mentality… for the rest that sit on their trailer trash fat butts…pay the taxes and enjoy your commies lives you loosers…get bent !!!
If you can, please give a list or places that are not the “Finnish sacred cow” markets. thanks
Comment by hill billy — Sun, Apr 29th, 2007 @ 5:23 pm
in terms of the health of public finance, Germany is FAAAAAR behind
Wow, their waiting times at the dentist are MORE than 16 months??
Comment by Phil — Sun, Apr 29th, 2007 @ 7:56 pm
teeth ? who needs teeth ?
Comment by hill billy — Sun, Apr 29th, 2007 @ 8:22 pm
I just can’t figure out why people have such a hard time understanding that Finland is tax way too heavily in comparison to other european countries and people regularly get ripped off due to lack of compatition and the various taxes that Kristian points out. I guess the majority of Finns are like Alcoholics in the sense that they are completely blind to the truth when someone points out that this country needs fixing.
Comment by uncle sam — Sun, Apr 29th, 2007 @ 8:38 pm
Wow, their waiting times at the dentist are MORE than 16 months??
This nicely captures the level of argumentation on the right side.
Comment by Anonymous — Sun, Apr 29th, 2007 @ 8:40 pm
I can’t figure out why people keep lying about the Finnish tax level.
Comment by Anonymous — Sun, Apr 29th, 2007 @ 8:42 pm
Kristian,
“Yes, thus diluting the purchasing power of the family.â€Â
“It’s a choice that’s available in Germany. Perfectly legitimate. Do you have a point with this?”
Yes, your claim was that Finns have less purchasing power than Germans - which they don’t. Then you argued that Germans actually have more purchasing power if you discount the people that don’t work (like housewives). That may or may not be true but it’s a different issue. Your basic point was wrong and obviously, some Finns could choose to work less or not at all and purchasing power for them would fall. As it stands, Finns have more purchasing power than Germans.
It seems what you really want to discuss is productivity per hour worked. That is slightly higher in Germany but Finland has seen far better growth on that score since 2000 than Germany(http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/28/18/36396770.xls). That suggests we’re doing the right thing.
Comment by Jon — Sun, Apr 29th, 2007 @ 8:46 pm
Phil:
“Blame me, I asked Kristian to write a post on this article, even though he just wrote about purchasing power a week ago. But when an article like this is published, do you really expect us to ignore it?!”
The same study, that taloussanomat wrote about, WAS already covered in another post by Mr. Kristian. Why does the fact that taloussanomat publishes facts about this somewhat strange study (whose results are dependant on tax-levels), make it interesting for a second time?
Comment by Thomas — Sun, Apr 29th, 2007 @ 8:50 pm
I buy most of my expensive goods from online shops England and Germany prices are like 50% to 20% cheaper there of course chipment can last two weeks but i dont gear. We all should start use foreing online shops because its only way to decrease prices because i think lack of competence is main reason rip off prices of finnish goods.
Good links where you can compare prices chipment is usually 30€, bikes and bigger goods 60€
http://www.preissuchmaschine.de/
http://www.idealo.de/
finnish one http://www.mbnet.fi/hintaseuranta/
Comment by katas — Sun, Apr 29th, 2007 @ 9:03 pm
Markus:
“People… wake up. It’s our country. The world won’t give a crap whether 5 million Finns go bankrupt. Ensuring we have a competitive economy is our responsibility, and it starts with setting the right kinds of incentives. Buying power is one of them.”
Another thing is DEBT. Which we don’t have. Thanks to the taxation level. Look at those taxation heavens, and look at their debt. Debt is merely postponed taxation.
Comment by Thomas — Sun, Apr 29th, 2007 @ 9:05 pm
katas:
“finnish one http://www.mbnet.fi/hintaseuranta/”
This shows that prices in Finland are mainly competitive. Only German prices are cheaper for the “state-of-the art” computer they use as their base for their comparisons. And it’s nowhere near 50% cheaper in Germany.
Comment by Thomas — Sun, Apr 29th, 2007 @ 9:09 pm
Thomas:
My observer is that at least Cameras,bikes and mobile phones are cheaper in Germany and England, OK 50% is too much but 20% is enough to me anyway prices are cheaper,
Of course there is exception that why everybody should find out where is cheapest like you did Thomas
Comment by katas — Sun, Apr 29th, 2007 @ 9:21 pm
Interestingly the “study” compares gross wages. That’s completely wrong. Either compare net wages or the total costs of an employee. In Finland a much bigger part of a “salary” is hidden - paid by the employer - than in Germany. That alone pretty much explains the strange result.
And naturally Germany, say, is less expensive for an average Finn because Finland’s nominal GDP per capita is so much bigger. Even the PPP GDP (corrected with purchasing powers) is a bit more here than in Germany. For the same reason Estonia seems so cheap. And no, the share of the salaries relative to the GDP is not particularly low in Finland.
Comment by Anonymous — Sun, Apr 29th, 2007 @ 10:26 pm
still the heart of the argument is that Finns are taxed way too heavily and regularly ripped off by state run alcohol, car taxes, and limited choices. Most of all, the selling of personal income tax information is grossly illegal. I fail to understand why are people still arguing that this is somehow good for the country ?
Comment by unlce sam — Sun, Apr 29th, 2007 @ 10:40 pm
Thomas said, “Another thing is DEBT. Which we don’t have. Thanks to the taxation level.”
Not according to this
Debt: €60.0 billion (est. 2005) 38.2 % of the GDP
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Finland
Phil and Kristian, you both write well. My friends (Finns) at work read it now too.
Comment by seeker of truth — Sun, Apr 29th, 2007 @ 10:50 pm
Its the net indebtedness you should be looking at.
Comment by Anonymous — Sun, Apr 29th, 2007 @ 10:57 pm
#58
Finlands assets exceed the amount of debt
Comment by Anonymous — Sun, Apr 29th, 2007 @ 10:57 pm
Finland, is a small country by population. Maintaining this level of service and infrastucture for 5 million people costs money esepcially in harsh winter. At the same time, it has to feed ever increasing retiring people at the same time remaining economically compititive. So i thint it can not afford to have lower taxes and higher purchasing power compared to a bigger country like Germany. Only solution is to ring few million forigners fto work rom outside to increase population to 10 million, everybody will be happy then.. how does finn like this
Comment by non-finn — Sun, Apr 29th, 2007 @ 11:02 pm
The purchasing power of an average Finn is not necessarily below that of her German counterpart. The “study” above referred to white-collar workers. Finland’s nominal GDP per capita is about 5 000$ more than in Germany. After purchasing power corrections it’s still about 3 000$ more. With such figures it would be hard to prove that Finns would earn much less than Germans.
Comment by Anonymous — Sun, Apr 29th, 2007 @ 11:15 pm
Well, I think there is something of a genuine problem here - though Kristian typically exaggarates wildly and then goes completely bonkers with his remedies. Our market is not as efficient as it should be, competition is quite restricted in many important areas. The retail market is obviously a semicartel with just very few actors dominating in good gentlemanly agreement, with basically Lidl as one of the bright spots (not that they would be a very nice company as such). We could do much better and correct at least some of the most glaring market failures (state intervention would probably be needed here to save private enterprise from itself). Anyway, admittedly there have been improvements lately and Finnish purchase power has increased considerably so hope is not lost.
Comment by mjr — Sun, Apr 29th, 2007 @ 11:38 pm
It’s cheaper in Germany. We lived there for 2 years anow we live in Finland for 6 months. A real shocking difference
Comment by Anonymous — Sun, Apr 29th, 2007 @ 11:54 pm
Its getting better, definitely, with IKEA and LIDLE into market. We need more foreign players, but the market is so small that not that many would be interested to setup in Finland.., the only way is to increase the population.. finland is way way sort of critical mass needed to run a country of this size and infrastructure.. .. 1 million indians and 1 million chinese will fix all the problem..
Comment by Anonymous — Mon, Apr 30th, 2007 @ 12:15 am
Jon: “your claim was that Finns have less purchasing power than Germans - which they don’t.”
I support the study which states that white collar professionals in Germany have MUCH better purchasing power than those in Finland. I have no doubt about that, and I’ve already listed my reasons. Most people seem to agree.
Jon: “Then you argued that Germans actually have more purchasing power if you discount the people that don’t work (like housewives). That may or may not be true but it’s a different issue.”
It’s not a different issue because it dilutes the German GDP-per-capita number—in my opinion, enough to account for that 3K€ difference between Finland and Germany. And probably more.
Jon: “and obviously, some Finns could choose to work less or not at all and purchasing power for them would fall.”
Sure, if they go on welfare.
Notice that every western European country has more accumulated wealth than Finland. Most of Finnish wealth is stored in homes. German wealth (and that of other western European countries) is stored in both, homes and income-producing investments.
http://www.finlandforthought.net/2006/12/07/finlands-net-worth-per-capita-lowest-in-old-eu-by-alot/
“Your basic point was wrong ”
No, my basic point was absolutely correct.
I started making these comparisons and observations since the early- or mid-1970’s. I guess before that I was too young realize any such differences. Since then I’ve lived in both countries as both, a poor person and as a working professional. Germany was always significantly cheaper, and it still is.
If anyone cares to question what I’ve written, my comments are #10, #23, #26 and of course the original post.
Comment by Kristian — Mon, Apr 30th, 2007 @ 6:44 am
Once again, there is no reliable study on the net worth of the Finns but it certainly is not below every other west-European country. And as usual you apparently invent your “facts” as you go: of course Finns have “income-producing investments”, almost as much as in housing - or a lot more if public pension funds are included.
http://www.stat.fi/artikkelit/2007/art_2007-02-15_001.html
And Germany is of course somewhat less expensive. It’s after all about 5 000 dollars below Finland in GDP per capita figures. The poorer the country the lower the prices, if you haven’t noticed.
Comment by Anonymous — Mon, Apr 30th, 2007 @ 7:04 am
“I support the study which states that white collar professionals in Germany have MUCH better purchasing power than those in Finland. I have no doubt about that, and I’ve already listed my reasons.”
I accepted with that in my first post. I disagreed that Finns have less purchasing power in general, which you then argued with.
“It’s not a different issue because it dilutes the German GDP-per-capita numberâ€â€in my opinion, enough to account for that 3K€ difference between Finland and Germany. And probably more.”
It doesn’t dilute the number, it reflects the reality. Finns have more purchasing power than Germans. In the same way, Americans have more purchasing power than the French even though the French make more per hour worked. That may be because they work longer but it’s still a fact which runs contrary to your claim. You need to tryto understand what purchasing power means.
“Germany was always significantly cheaper, and it still is.”
If this is the obervation your argument is based on, then it’s no wonder you’re tying yourself up in knots. Purchasing power reflects the ability of people to buy goods. That depends on income. PPP adjusted GDP per capita refelcts the average ability of people to buy a given basket of goods and services. Since Finland’s per capita GDP is higher than Germany’s, they can thus buy more, whatever the street value.
Comment by Jon — Mon, Apr 30th, 2007 @ 7:49 am
GDP means production. And you are talking about consumption. I guess there is a huge net flow of capital out of Finland to other countries. This explains why even the GDP per capita is high in Finland but actual wages are way lower than Germany.
Comment by european — Mon, Apr 30th, 2007 @ 12:44 pm
Another problem of GDP is it just counts the quantity but not the quality.
Just take a case.
Finnish producers make one apple per month. They sell one apple at ten Euro. A Finnish consumer buy one apple per month.
German producers make ten apples per month. They sell one apple at one Eruo. A German consumer buy ten apples per month.
So conclusion: GDP should be the same for two countries. But the result? German consumer enjoyed ten apples but Finnish only one!
In a completely open free and competitive market, this doesn’t happen because imports from Germany will effect to lower the price of local apple. The local apple producers will go bankrupt. But Finnish market is not that kind. Just think about the silly Finnish flags in the labels. Those kind of products are expensive and of low quality, but Finnish consumers choose those silly products along with various protections by the government.
The final result is what we see now.
Comment by european — Mon, Apr 30th, 2007 @ 12:56 pm
european,
There is no huge net flow of capital out of Finland and even if there were, it wouldn’t explain the level of salaries. Salary levels, like other price levels, are based on supply and demand. I would guess that the greatest reason for the comparatively low salaries (among white collar workers) in Finland is the fact that there is an oversupply of highly educated people. Plumbers and electricians earn plenty here.
Comment by finnsense — Mon, Apr 30th, 2007 @ 1:08 pm
european,
That’s what GDP adjusted for PPP is for. Purchasing power parity means that if a Finn has €30,000 and a German has €30,000, they can buy the same basket of goods.
Comment by finnsense — Mon, Apr 30th, 2007 @ 1:10 pm
Jon: “ it’s no wonder you’re tying yourself up in knots.”
I’m not tying myself in knots. Instead, you simply refuse to understand the argument.
Comment by Kristian — Mon, Apr 30th, 2007 @ 2:12 pm
“I’m not tying myself in knots. Instead, you simply refuse to understand the argument.”
That’s not an argument. If you honestly believe that I really suggest you go and read through again. You have clearly made a leap from the observation that prices are lower in Germany that purchasing power is thus higher there. As I’ve argued, that simply does not follow.
Comment by Jon — Mon, Apr 30th, 2007 @ 2:22 pm
Jon: “You have clearly made a leap from the observation that prices are lower in Germany that purchasing power is thus higher there.”
No, that’s NOT a leap I’ve taken. It is clearly not. But that seems to be all that you are reading.
Forget about my observations altogether. Which part don’t you understand?
Comment by Kristian — Mon, Apr 30th, 2007 @ 2:31 pm
According to the Eurostat the prices in Finland are about 15% higher. Then again the nominal GDP per capita is about 20% higher. That would indicate that Finns have slightly more purchasing power … but only if you don’t take taxation into account, it’s several percentage points lower in Germany. Now Germans may have more purchasing power … but only if they don’t have to pay directly for such services that Finns pay via taxes, which they do, or if they are not raising loans and thus just transferring the tax burden to the future. Now Finns have more purchasing power. Carry on with the exercise if you want to.
What’s seems to be certain, though, is that the study Taloussanomat referred to is badly flawed. You don’t compare gross wages because they are more or less arbitrary. And in my humble opinion a higher taxation level shouldn’t be considered something that solely eats up your purchasing power.
And West Germany alone would probably beat Finland hands down.
Comment by Anonymous — Mon, Apr 30th, 2007 @ 3:17 pm
“Forget about my observations altogether. Which part don’t you understand?”
You wrote in your original post the following:
“Furthermore, Germany has nearly double the purchasing power of Finland. A few other countries that beat Finland are England, Holland, Belgium and Spain. How can this be?”
I complained in my first post that you were behaving as if this referred not to people with higher education but to Finns in general . You went on to try to justify that this referred to Finns in general. I argued this was impossible since Finnish GDP adjusted for PPP is higher than that in Germany and GDP adjusted for PPP is the most reliable guide of purchasing power when stuff you get for “free” through taxation is taken into account.
What I don’t understand is why you don’t admit your initial post was wrong and why you advance increasingly misguided and spurious arguments in defence of it.
Comment by Jon — Mon, Apr 30th, 2007 @ 5:07 pm
phil wrote: “Wow, their waiting times at the dentist are MORE than 16 months??”
I wasn’t talking about public health-care, but the health (sustainability) of their economy. Finland is running on major budget surplus and low-ish government debt, while Germany certainly is not. Neither do we have nearly as bad aging phenomenon as Germany and our birthrate and netmigration has actually improved over the past few years.
Comment by olli — Mon, Apr 30th, 2007 @ 5:29 pm
Jon you are the fool!
The weakness of using GDP figures (per capita measured in PPP terms) as a proxy for purchasing power is that it assumes that the value of the output produced by the public sector is valued accurately.
Finland’s GDP per capita adjusted for purchasing power will depend heavily upon the value economists (employed by the Finnish government) place on the value of output produced in the Finnish public sector. Finland’s public sector is huge, so any valuation problems could significantly affect recorded GDP per capita at a PPP exchange rate
The average basket of goods chosen for the PPP exchange rate will obviously have an effect on the figures too. Change the average basket of goods for your comparison and you could see the positions reversed. I’m sure I’ve seen other GDP per capita figures for Finland and Germany measured using PPP, presumably produced by a different team of economists, that shows that German GDP per capita at PPP is way above the comparable figure for Finland.
Don’t dismiss the obvious by making reference to one economic study, which may well be spurious. We all know that
1. Real GDP per capita is miles higher in Germany than it is in Finland.
2. The cost of living in Finland is miles higher than it is in Finland
Therefore, I think its pretty stupid to suggest that the average Finn has a greater purchasing power than the the average German. Open your eyes. Have you ever been to Germany? Jon, if purchasing power in Finland was really as high as you think there would be no need for the ever-so affluent Finn to import second-hand cast off rust bucket cars from Germans that can instead afford to buy new, because…wait for it….they have the purchasing power, not the Finn.
Jon, what’s you’re real name? Jani, Janne? Whoever you are, my bet is that you’re a sad Finn whose in denial. Enjoy your miserable life in poor old Finland
Comment by Anonymous — Mon, Apr 30th, 2007 @ 5:48 pm
it’s a bit wired to read fins thatare being screwed by the finish system and still they defend it…. could it be due to the trauma of 90’s and when the state started take the fin by the hand like a nany?
Comment by Anonymous — Mon, Apr 30th, 2007 @ 6:24 pm
Anonymous/Kristian,
Your post was pretty obnoxious but if I ignore the tone and just focus on your argument, it appears to be this:
1) GDP (PPP) figures are imperfect.
2) If GDP (PPP) is an imperfect measure of purchasing power, it’s best to base any opinion on other well-known “facts” that you have pulled out of a hat.
Therefore,
3) You are right and I am wrong.
Seriously though, there are some serious weaknesses in your argument. GDP (PPP) was devised because real GDP figures are totally unreliable, so harking back to them is a bit silly. The basket of goods and services are not random but are intended to be representative and are arrived at by a group of international economists. Furthermore, the GDP per capita (PPP) that I cited was the OECD figure. I have never seen Germany ahead on GDP per capita.
As to the premises you prefer to the internationally approved and recognised statistics used by every government agency and think tank in the world, let’s see. According to the World Bank, Finland has higher real GDP per capita than Germnay (http://siteresources.worldbank.org/DATASTATISTICS/Resources/GNIPC.pdf). Your first premise is thus false.
Your second premise is also a bit confused. I have been to Germany and the cost of most things in shops was lower as were cars. This was due to two factors. When I was there, the VAT rate was 16%. In Finland it is 22%. Car tax is even higher. That may make it appear that Germans get more for their money but that’s the wrong way to look at it. VAT is used to pay for goods and services for citizens - for infrastructure, education, health care, unemployment benefits and so on. Of all taxes it is regarded by economists as the most efficient. So the price of goods on the street tells you little about absolute purchasing power.
My real name is Jon and thank you, I’m quite content.
Comment by Jon — Mon, Apr 30th, 2007 @ 6:37 pm
Hi
Comment by Kristian — Mon, Apr 30th, 2007 @ 7:05 pm
You ignore the point about the valuation of public sector output. Most of it has to be valued, but its not traded. This is a big weakness of GDP figures. Is the monetary value of public sector output in Finland measured accurately? How can you place a reliable monetary value on the output of a state school that does not charge its pupils.
Second, PPP figures are a matter of opinion. Different economic forecasting groups DO choose different items to make up the average basket of goods. Economists are not a homogenous mass. They rarely agree with each others figures. Surely, you do know that!
The exchange rate used to convert GDP per capita significantly affects the recorded outcome of any study into comparative purchasing power.
Jon, go and study some economics, I think that you would enjoy doing so
Comment by Anonymous — Mon, Apr 30th, 2007 @ 7:09 pm
Sorry, I meant to write ALL output produced by the public sector has to be valued
Comment by Anonymous — Mon, Apr 30th, 2007 @ 7:20 pm
“Jon, go and study some economics, I think that you would enjoy doing so”
You’re still being obnoxious and I would have thought by now it’s clear I have studied Economics. This is how I know you are making this stuff up as you go along.
If you want me to take you seriously find me any set of GDP figures, either real or PPP, that show Germany as doing better than Finland. The fact you hark on about the exchange rate in a discussion about Germany and Finland, who use the same currency, does not inspire confidence.
Comment by Jon — Mon, Apr 30th, 2007 @ 7:35 pm
I almost forgot:
GDP = consumption + investment + (government spending) + (exports − imports)
Which part exactly of government spending is impossible to quantify or require estimation different to any business?
“How can you place a reliable monetary value on the output of a state school that does not charge its pupils.”
By counting up how much it costs? What am I missing here?
Comment by Jon — Mon, Apr 30th, 2007 @ 7:43 pm
“Anonymous/Kristian,
Your post was pretty obnoxious”
It was not my post. It was written by an Anonymous who’s legitimately commented here previously. I’m sure Phil or Hank W. can vouch for that. Maybe you’re being overly sensitive?
Anyway, even though I see it as sound argumentation, I won’t base my own point on which set of GDP (PPP) numbers is accurate and which isn’t. Someone else can do it if they wish. I’ll stick to my original point for now.
Jon: “You wrote in your original post the following:
‘Germany has nearly double the purchasing power of Finland.’
I complained in my first post that you were behaving as if this referred not to people with higher education but to Finns in general”
Ok, fair enough. I see that we have a misunderstanding. I assumed it was clear since both, my prior sentence and the bold title, make reference to university educated professionals. It was not my intent to mislead.
Jon: “What I don’t understand is why you don’t admit your initial post was wrong”
Are we clear on this now?
Jon: “You went on to try to justify that this referred to Finns in general.”
Yes.
In the comments section, you agreed that university educated Finns have poor purchasing power compared to their German counterparts.
But then you seemed to imply that this is due to the distribution of wealth. That is, educated people in Germany are better-off at the expense of non-educated ones. And you used Germany’s lower GDP-per-capita for your reasoning.
It’s not the worst reasoning. But you fail to account for the different societal structure. Hence, my argument was/is that poor people are not worse-off. The lower GDP-per-capita is explained by:
1). hausfraus in Germany diluting the GDP-per-capita figure; and
2). those who live fully or partially on investment income diluting GDP-per-capita figures.
Therefore Germany’s alleged lower GDP-per-capita is not due to some greater level of poverty in Germany. Rather it is explained by the different societal structure. Much of western Europe can be explained by it.
Comment by Kristian — Mon, Apr 30th, 2007 @ 8:13 pm
You are assuming that the Finnish public sector is efficient, i.e. the money spent equals the value of output produced……I don’t think so.
The best way of judging the value of output is to look at how much consumers are willing to pay for the goods produced.
Most of Finland’s public sector output is provided on a compulsory basis free of charge, and…….. there lies the problem.
Comment by Anonymous — Mon, Apr 30th, 2007 @ 8:14 pm
The “Hi” post above isn’t mine either. Very funny
Comment by Kristian — Mon, Apr 30th, 2007 @ 8:32 pm
“…The “Hi†post…”
The Content Finns Anonymous of FFT?…??!
Comment by Antti rn — Mon, Apr 30th, 2007 @ 9:48 pm
Kristian,
Your argument might work if the percentage of Germans working was lower than the percentage of Finns working. According to Eurostat this is the case with 67.2% of Germans working to 69.3% of Finns. That’s not enough to explain how working Germans could all be better off than working Finns though. It might explain the gap in GDP but it needs to do much more than that to support your argument (since if educated Germans have 75% more purchasing power German GDP would need to be much higher to enable uneducated to Germans to earn more too).
I think people get a skewed idea of how expensive Finland is if they live in the Helsinki Metropolitan area. I also still think that the excess of educated people is the reason for their low salaries in Finland.
Anonymous,
Well even if we ignore government expenditure, Germany and Finland have comparable GDP. Germany spends 47% of GDP on public services and Finland spends 50% (2004). There are also plenty of areas in which the state is clearly more efficient than the private sector - like health care. T
If you want to argue that statistics are misleading then okay, I don’t disagree. But as a wise man once said: “The only thing less reliable than statistics is abstraction from personal experience”. Going to Germany and seeing goods being cheaper tells you nothing about salaries, income taxes, what you get from the state for free and so on.
Comment by Jon — Mon, Apr 30th, 2007 @ 9:48 pm
“the case with 67.2% of Germans working to 69.3% of Finns.”
That depends on how “labor participation” is counted. A job doesn’t always = a job. I believe there is much less women work in Germany (in true job.)
I have lived there. For me Germany is less cost for almost everything. Compare to pay.
Comment by finntastic — Mon, Apr 30th, 2007 @ 10:59 pm
much less women who work. sorry
Comment by finntastic — Mon, Apr 30th, 2007 @ 11:00 pm
The statistical side of the debate seems a bit arcane, it would be more interesting to discuss practical ways to make the market function better in Finland. I guess it is the inherent goal of all private enterprise to work towards cartels and monopolies, but I would think that Finland is quite rare in the West for our market inefficiency. Surely the size of the market is important, but it cannot be the sole explanation. Perhaps our cultural preference for consensus is also a factor, as well as the relatively recent emergence from a predominantly agricultural society (I guess that happened fundamentally only after the WW2). Well, our assorted libertarians probably won’t be able to suggest any ways to counter this inherent market inefficiency as their beloved Theory, at its crudest what we mostly have on this site, doesn’t really allow the concept.
Comment by mjr — Mon, Apr 30th, 2007 @ 11:10 pm
Jon,
One point that I’ve just noticed from one of your earlier posts: PPP exchange rates are not based on actual market exchange rates. Yes, Finland and Germany use the same currency, but that does not mean that a PPP exchange rate betwen the two countries would be 1:1. A PPP exchange rate is an abstraction, a theoretical calculation; the exchange rate required to equalise the cost of living in the two countries that you want to compare.
Valuing the ouput of the public sector by measuring the amount spent to provide the service is unsatisfactory. As you know, the real value of something is determined by what someone else is prepared to pay for the good or service. Most public sector output in Finland is provided on a take it or leave it basis free of charge.
MJR, ever heard of “Lean production” and “mass customisation”. These days firms can offer variety from relatively short production runs without incurring a cost penalty. The real reason why you find relatively few imported goods in Finland is the anti-competitive agreements that exist between companies like Valio and K-Market; the aim being to deny shelf space to foreign products. If foreign goods are not stocked by Finnish retailers they can’t be bought by Finnish consumers. The name of the game is Finnish economic nationalism, the goal being to generate high dividends for the Finnish elite and to protect Finnish jobs. Who gives a damm about the consume, they’re only proles. anyway
Comment by Anonymous — Tue, May 1st, 2007 @ 12:11 am
95. few imported goods in Finland
Take a look at the international wine selection in a provincial Alko, you don’t see such a range in French, German, Italian, Spanish… bottle shops.
Comment by pi — Tue, May 1st, 2007 @ 4:05 am
I’m all for encouraging competition and innovation as you might be able to tell from my website. I don’t like it when people blame VAT for things for a couple of reasons. First, it’s the most efficiently collected tax and it isn’t progressive so it doesn’t act as a disincentive to work. Second, I beleieve that at this point in time in Finland, we get decent value for our government services. I am in favour of making those services ever more efficient (using vouchers or other schemes) but they should be guaranteed.
Germany itself has increased VAT by 3% this year.
Comment by Jon — Tue, May 1st, 2007 @ 8:17 am
@96 I have noticed that the wine selection in Alko varies by location. For example in Savo, the wines are mostly in boxes and the bottle selection in pretty mininal in contrast with the Alko in Iso Omena and Tapiola who has a farily good selection of Margaux, Paulliac, and St. Emillion. Maybe we can start a discussion of which Alko has the best wine selection
Comment by unlce sam — Tue, May 1st, 2007 @ 8:19 am
I am not an economist, so I can’t point out exactly where the GDP calculation is wrong. But from my observation, the living standard in Finlnad is much lower than Germany even East Germany.
One point is that actually GDP(PPP) doesn’t count the quality. Finnish local products that are sold at high prices are very poor in quality, but interestingly they are sold more than better imported goods. I think Finnish nationalism intervene to prevent rational thinking. I am not sure how economists can count this kind of irrational buying habit in count.
Comment by european — Tue, May 1st, 2007 @ 9:50 am
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Comment by Jukka — Tue, May 1st, 2007 @ 11:41 am
I am not sure how economists can count this kind of irrational buying habit in count.
The last time I checked economics was about free choices people do with their own money. Buying local isn’t irrational if that’s how people want to spend their money.
And if you haven’t done all kinds of jobs, earning all kinds of salaries and living in all parts of Germany and Finland you should rather trust the statistics than your own sporadic observations. In particular, when we are talking about two countries which are very close to each other in most crucial aspects, like the government expenditure, standard of living, and even “taste”). The statistics are not flawless but they give a much better approximation of how things are.
And this is how they are: Finland’s nominal GDP is according to the IMF, World Bank, OECD, EU and even CIA well above that of Germany’s (if somebody knows anybody else making these statistics, pleas tell). Most of them, if not all, rank Finland ahead of Germany even with the PPP. This doesn’t necessarily meant that an average Finn has more purchasing power but, then again, it shows that she can’t have much less either. Proving otherwise would need a major rewrite of modern economics.
The mumbo jumbo about Finnish authorities cooking up figures or some mysterious disparities between the Finnish and German figures regarding public spending, display either ignorance or will to distort facts … or desperation in front of a very disturbing fact. There are, after all, quite a few people who see Finland’s success as a threat to their world view (unnecessarily in my opinion, Finland isn’t really the kind of a welfare state these lost souls think it is; Sweden - even something like Belgium - would be a much better enemy).
Comment by bottom line — Tue, May 1st, 2007 @ 11:47 am
95: I believe S- and K-groups once actually shared their logistics system - disgraceful. But I don’t think it’s economic nationalism, it’s simply a cartel, benefitting its members, like cartels admittedly do. Well, I guess we should talk about semi-cartel really, there is some competition, it just never seems to cross certain bounds. This is just one example where we could do much better. I certainly wouldn’t dispute the fact that Finland has a growing and dynamic economy and a relatively wealthy population (filthy rich actually if you think on global terms). Still we have problems also, and could have much more efficient internal market.
Comment by mjr — Tue, May 1st, 2007 @ 12:15 pm
Tradeka and SOK, not K and S. By the way, Lidl is, I think, more expensive than Prisma with the 5% off I get as a regular customer. I wonder how much anybody could get the prices down if even Lidl couldn’t. So, the problems seems to be structural: too high overall costs, salaries etc, too long transportations to too few people and what have you.
Comment by Anonymous — Tue, May 1st, 2007 @ 12:54 pm
Finnish local products that are sold at high prices are very poor in quality
I have to add this to my list of things the Finns do wrong, right after the “brainwashed lazy-ass drunkards”: “They can’t make things.”
Comment by Anonymous — Tue, May 1st, 2007 @ 1:42 pm
One point:
“Automobiles in Finland cost roughly double the German price due to Autovero; a family can lose 10K€ to 20K€ in one shot to this tax, especially if two cars are needed. Public transit availability is not very good, despite 1M+ residents in the Helsinki region. So many families need two cars.”
I agree that the public transit availability might be lacking elsewhere, but in Helsinki region, I seriously and honestly think it is very much up to the task.
However, I do agree that having so high prices for new automobiles themselves is counterproductive, even in ecological sense (which I believe is/was one of the arguments for Autovero). It results in having old cars and slows down the adoption of environmentally better technologies. I’d much rather see lower taxes for buying a new car and higher (yes, even higher) tax for using the car. Maybe even so that older cars would be taxed higher than new ones, and bigger cars more than smaller ones. Of course, this would look like it was against the poor (who cannot afford to get new cars) and for the rich (who can) so it will never happen.
Disclaimer: for the record, I don’t have a driver’s license nor do I plan to ever get one, if I can help it. I am currently very content with public transit availability in Helsinki. Of course, if I ever get children I might have to reconsider this.
Comment by Tommi Tuura — Tue, May 1st, 2007 @ 2:40 pm
re: Car taxation
There are plans to shift the car tax onto environmentally unsound cars. I believe within two years.
Tommi’s right. Public transport in the Helsinki Met area is very good. The only gripe is the lack of links from Espoo to Vantaa but otherwise it’s very efficient.
Comment by Jon — Tue, May 1st, 2007 @ 3:19 pm
Jon: “the case with 67.2% of Germans working to 69.3% of Finns.â€Â
finntastic: “That depends on how “labor participation†is counted. A job doesn’t always = a job.”
I agree with that point. German’s economy is very different from Finland’s. In corporate and institutionalized Finland, there is a clearer distinction between employment and non-employment. And it’s probably reflected more clearly in payscales.
In Germany, a housewife who stays home with the children might also answer phones (from home) for some small trucking company. Technically, she counts as employed—but in reality, she only works when the phone rings.
The pay for this type of job is very low, so it dilutes GDP-per-capita for Germany. There are many such mini-jobs.
There’s also a HUGE amount of underemployment in eastern Germany. The arctypical engineer who drives a taxi is very common. As well as people of all professions who are forced into retirement 10-years-early. The system is still far from optimal there.
It also dilutes GDP-per-capita. And I won’t argue that a taxi-diving engineer in eastern Germany has better purchasing power than a fully employed one in Finland
To argue Jon’s case, there are millions of people who live in the eastern German countryside who get paid very little, and they consume very little. It’s still DDR there; that generation will never make the transition. They genuinely count as being poor. The new generation has more relevant skills, but they’re just now entering the workforce.
For now, this condition also dilutes GDP-per-capita for Germany, significantly. No one is starving though; they simply live frugally as before in DDR. Even wear the same clothes.
I also favor a VAT tax over income tax. I only mention it in my posts to emphasize the full picture. Germany did increase its VAT to 19%; food VAT is still 9%. And cars are still about half Finland’s price. Eventually, they’ll probably lower income taxes. I think that is the mid-term plan. Much depends on the development of eastern Germany.
Generally, I don’t think that Finland should deviate too much from its neighbors in terms of consumption taxes. Otherwise, it’ll continue to be necessary for people to schlep consumer goods to Finland from abroad.
Comment by Kristian — Tue, May 1st, 2007 @ 3:47 pm
Someone above mentioned about eastern Germany having better purchasing power than Finland. I’m going to create a post about that. It’s something interesting to talk about.
Comment by Kristian — Tue, May 1st, 2007 @ 3:59 pm
Lidl in Finland doesn’t have to charge the same prices as Lidl Germany because there is more competition and greater rivalry within the German market sector that the Finnish supermarket market. Lidl Finland probably makes bigger gross margins than Lidl Germany.
If more foreign supermarkets could overcome Finland’s protectionist bureaucracy K-Market would face even more competition. Lidl’s prices in Finland would probably come down to help it maintain its market share. At the moment Lidl in Finland doesn’t have to charge German Lidl prices to under-cut K-Market.
Comment by Anonymous — Tue, May 1st, 2007 @ 4:16 pm
Economics and other business related courses are not taught in Finnish schools.
The Finns need some education in this area. Most Finns don’t know about the impacts of cartels and other anti-competitive tactics that are part of Finland’s business culture.
Their conformity culture doesn’t help either. Finns obey authority without question. Finnish firms that run anti-competitive agreements have complete freedom to do what they want. Finns don’t complain; instead they doft their caps to authority and meekly do what is expected of them- buy over priced domestically produced rubbish to help support “little” Finland.
Mugs!
Comment by Anonymous — Tue, May 1st, 2007 @ 4:22 pm
Post 110- Have you been reading my mind?” Never before have I seen such a complete and accurate description of Finland and it’s people. Your hand is on the pulse and you should be rewarded. A real pleasure to read.
Comment by Punter — Tue, May 1st, 2007 @ 10:13 pm
Hmm, yeah, I thought too that the problem couldn’t be economic, it must genetical! Could we somehow improve the race to get market forces function better? I would especially appreciate tips from pure Aryans!
Comment by mjr — Tue, May 1st, 2007 @ 10:18 pm
And your answer to that post just confirmed it as a reality. Just follow your leaders all the while pretending to consider the problem while life marches on. Yes sir.
Comment by Punter — Tue, May 1st, 2007 @ 10:31 pm
#112
No no. We should get some “pure blooded” Australians like Punter and watch the economy and intelligence of this country sky rocket.
“Economics and other business related courses are not taught in Finnish schools.”
Utter Bullshit, with a capital B.
Comment by Anonymous — Tue, May 1st, 2007 @ 11:02 pm
“Most Finns don’t know about the impacts of cartels and other anti-competitive tactics that are part of Finland’s business culture.”
“Their conformity culture doesn’t help either. Finns obey authority without question. Finnish firms that run anti-competitive agreements have complete freedom to do what they want. Finns don’t complain; instead they doft their caps to authority and meekly do what is expected of them- buy over priced domestically produced rubbish to help support “little†Finland.”
Sorry but it was these points made in the post that this Australian was agreeing with. It was said so beautifully that my eyes teared……….
Now, go on, continue to throw around your outdated brainwashed views. You only strengthen the common view
BTW, it is true. Most Finns wouldn’t have a clue as they are mostly all salary men loyally serving their bosses and the State….
Comment by Punter — Tue, May 1st, 2007 @ 11:11 pm
Hmm, with all due respect Punter - are you really, really sure you are not Finnpundit? These generalizations are not only idiotic, but they have this really nasty, unpleasant undertone as well (which lovely combination does bring our dear friend FP to mind). I was mostly making just non-serious fun of your eccentric comments, but actually, taken literally, they do sound quite racist.
Comment by mjr — Tue, May 1st, 2007 @ 11:39 pm
This piece of news certainly was really no surprise for me….I just don’t understand why some people turn so defensive:
“Why oh why dont you just stay in Germany, everyone on this site is really sick of you telling us how everywhere else is better than Finland, you really seem to have some kind of twisted illusion that your life will suddenly become great if you move to Switzerland or Germany so maybe you might consider that because its obvious by now that Finland is too backward for you, so please do us all a favour and follow your dream.
Comment by sppuuddy  Sat, Apr 28th, 2007 @ 6:34 pm”
wow, a really hostile response…
Comment by From the perspective of a Chinese Finn — Wed, May 2nd, 2007 @ 12:42 am
Why would the term “racist” even be used in this matter? Being critical of something, even the behaivour of a race or nation, is hardly grounds for being described as racist. I stand by my comment that most Finns are conformists that rarely question authority. They are far too passive, are blind when it comes to problems within Finland and most are followers rather than leaders. What is the differnece in my “racist” view of Finland and lets say your “racist” view of me? Get over it.
That’s is not to say that there are not also some fine points about living in Finland. As I have always said no-one is pointing a gun at me and keeping me here by force. I’m free to leave whenever I want but remain here for other reasons. If only certain aspects of Finland were different I believe that this could be an even better place to live and raise a family.
Now if I am unable to air my problems with this country and people living here without be called racist then I think it is you and not me that needs to have a close look in the mirror.
As for me being Finnpundit, I can assure you there are many differences between the 2 of us mostly concerning US policy in The Gulf and entire Middle East. Although I agree with FP economic stance, you will probably never find 2 people further apart when it comes to the Middle Esat and US/Israeli policy there. Go figure.
Comment by Punter — Wed, May 2nd, 2007 @ 8:12 am
Well, it just seems kind of suspicious to generalize about a whole nation like that. Finns this, Finns that, Jews this, Jews that and so on. This kind of thinking can’t help being totally wrong and misplaced. So, either you are quite ignorant or then you some fairly nasty hangups about Finns or both. You takes your pick.
Comment by mjr — Wed, May 2nd, 2007 @ 10:05 am
#mjr
You should try and criticise Australia and watch Punter explode. He has zero tolerence for people who say something bad about his native country but it’s perfectly okay for him to make even worse false assertions about Finns and Finland.
He is a big fat hypocrit.
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, May 2nd, 2007 @ 11:12 am
Give Punttis some slack, he’s obviously having some serious problems with his indoctrination. He gets something like an orgasm when somebody agrees with him that Finland is this crappy excuse for a country and Finns brainwashed idiots.
But when he learns that Finland is doing well and has been for decades his brain gets tied up in knots. “Ah, no, no, no, noo” is about all he can then utter from his, apparently, drooling mouth. I’m sure you can picture that from his confused writings - like when he actually wrote “ah, no, no, no, noo” when somebody dared to suggest that Finland’s economical success is not a freak accident but something that has gone on for decades.
Next his programming will tell him to take what I wrote as an evidence of “how idiotic my Finnish enemies are”. Mark my words.
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, May 2nd, 2007 @ 2:55 pm
Finlands economical success has been going on for decades? Really? Can’t take criticism about my homeland? Try me?
Generalizations about Finland and Finns? You bet unless you want to start dealing with private and/or company names. What else are we to do apart from generalize?
You people seem to lack the understanding of a discussion foru. What is it if not to generalize and be critical of things? If you find a topic on here that I happen to agree with, ie safety and security/ peace of living here in Finland, you might all be shocked. However as long as you continue to call this a dynamic, efficient, modern, open, cheap, economically successful country etc etc etc, you will get an opinion from me that is different. Right? No but then that’s not important. My own opinion? You better believe it and I will say it for all it’s worth.
Now, if you want to criticize Australia, feel free. I couldn’t care less. Just make sure you know what you’re talking about not like some earlier posts re. Aboriginal affairs and gun control. Save me……..
Comment by Punter — Wed, May 2nd, 2007 @ 5:00 pm
“Just make sure you know what you’re talking about”
If only Punter would follow his own advice.
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, May 2nd, 2007 @ 6:23 pm
And, mind you, Australia’s economy long-term trend is not particularly bad compared to many countries. Of course, not at all as good as that of Finland’s but then again Finland is after all among the very best.
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, May 2nd, 2007 @ 6:29 pm
Don’t know what your reading (smoking) but I really wish you’d learn to understand what you write. “Catch us if you can” as we say back home…..
Comment by Punter — Wed, May 2nd, 2007 @ 6:49 pm
As a matter of fact, what do you call 14 years of continous economic growth to an economy that was already modern and developed? (not like here) Unemployment of 4.2%, a booming resource driven export sector enjoying record prices/profits, a flexible workforce enjoying the highest real wages ever.-…..??? Why even bother? You my friend have your head in a cave and can’t see anything other than this dot on the map of Europe.
Comment by Punter — Wed, May 2nd, 2007 @ 6:56 pm
Don’t know what your reading
How about IMF’s statistics. Finland’s nominal GDP per capita is about $4 000 higher that that of Australia’s. And the long-term growth rate has been constantly faster. Perhaps you could send that 4000 dollar back to your folks so they could buy a brand new wombat trap. Isn’t that what Australians mostly eat - in addition to road kills, of course?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29_per_capita
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, May 2nd, 2007 @ 6:59 pm
Check your stats again numb nuts. BTW, made a nice little profit from The All Ords today so to did my folks so you can keep your poor 4000, I don’t need it. If you really think the living is higher here, I take it as read that you’ve never visited Australia. Do me a favour, visit, learn, return then debate me. Until such time may I suggest you kindly STFU.
Road kill…. What a twit. Speaks loads for your education system.
Comment by Punter — Wed, May 2nd, 2007 @ 8:05 pm
Finland sucks and even the Finns privately accept that.
How come only 2 000 Brits live in Finland?
Compare that to the 10 000 or so Finns that have emigrated to the UK………..and Finland’s population is ten times SMALLER than the UK’s
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, May 2nd, 2007 @ 8:09 pm
That is a common theme with them world wide though. They have possibly migrated, based on population, more than any other nation on earth. I’ve read over 1 million Finns are registered abroad. Imagine, 20% of this great lands own people have fled. But wait, thy had hard times and had to pay back Russia and it’s cold here and ……….
Comment by Punter — Wed, May 2nd, 2007 @ 8:15 pm
I thought that I would not lower myself down to your level but what the hell …
Why on earth I would like to go Australia, to the middle of nowhere, you fuck head.
Besides it’s dangerous. Do you know that there have been at least 19 serial killers in Australia. “Ivan Milat - aka Backpack Murderer killed at least 7 tourists.” No wonder you fled. Your criminal background keeps some deep mental undercurrents flowing down there. Or perhaps it’s in your genes having all those thugs as your ancestors. By the way, there has not been a certain serial killer in Finland (excluding härmän häijyt and the like in the 19th century).
And this violence of yours is particularly obnoxious when linked with another tradition of yours, racism. Then again, I’m quite sure that the massacres of the aboriginals never happened, as one of the products of your great educational system told me a while back. Fortunately John Howard (that’s your PM) is now setting the record straight … hah, hah
And Finland’s economy surpassed that of Australia’s decades ago. Even Australians, who are not as ridiculously patriotic or as arrogantly ignorant as you, have to admit it.
“Roadkill” means, by the way, an animal killed by being struck by a motor vehicle. A great education you folks have down there, I seem to know your motehr tongue better than you! And quick, what’s roadkill in Finnish, surely you must know that having suffered here for years.
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, May 2nd, 2007 @ 8:57 pm
Roadkill would probably be the sight that appears in your mirror each morning, or beside you in bed. Now don’t get too personal here. Lets take your points as they come.
Middle of nowhere yet one of the worlds most visited countries constantly at the top of the must see places on earth. Strange that one.
More dangerous. Yep, true. So what, we learn to look after ourselves and it’s only people like you with your big mouths spurting ridiculous crap that generally suffer.
19 serial killers…. Make it 20, a new one has just been investigated dating back to 1965. As for our (my) criminal genes, well all I can say is the fight and determination to beat the odds and rise above adversity in the early 1800’s is reflected today in our achievements across a broad spectrum. Many other cultures would have been crushed by the harshness of the land but instead we, all of us regardless of background, culture, colour or creed have succeeded. Pity Finns can’t seem to get over their past.
Racism? Now tell me about it numb nuts. As one of the most multicultural and diverse populations known to mankind, tell me about racism. Visit the country and admire the diverse population. Foods, languages, religions, opportunity etc etc etc and all you can come up with are “aboriginie massacres” that you seem to know about. I’m dying to hear more off your tripe on this subject. Look at population numbers pre white (European) settlement and then progressively until today and get back to me. And don’t insult my intelligence (that’s your PM) by telling me about the man I’ve known since I was a boy and who’s party i have voted for from the age of 18. TWIT.
As for your economy, don’t make me choke. It was probably due to Finlands superior economy all those years ago, combined with all these negative points that drove tens of thousands of Finns, maybe even relatives of yours, to our shores from the 1960s.
You’re dismissed.
Comment by Punter — Wed, May 2nd, 2007 @ 9:44 pm
Middle of nowhere yet one of the worlds most visited countries constantly at the top of the must see places on earth.
Sure, hah hah, what have you been smoking.
Middle of nowhere yet one of the worlds most visited countries constantly at the top of the must see places on earth.
Another desperate excuse. “Yeah we have this harsh climate …” Who do you think you’re kidding?
As for your economy, don’t make me choke.
Don’t you choke in your drool, brainwashed idiot.
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, May 2nd, 2007 @ 10:29 pm
I don’t like to spend much time on these punters but let me make a correction nevertheless. My ctrl+c didn’t catch this quote: “Many other cultures would have been crushed by the harshness of the land”. Replace the second quote with that one. (If you don’t, here’s how it went: Punter has laughed at the excuses some Finns make “because we have a harsh weather” - and correctly so, for once. Now he makes the same excuse for his own beloved country. A typical racist attitude - an attitude that has plagued the “Anglo-Saxon” culture everywhere - well, perhaps excluding Canada for some strange reason.)
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, May 2nd, 2007 @ 10:45 pm
So is there anybody who can explain why the GDP per capita of FInland is as high as western European countries, but actual standard of living is similar to that of eastern European countries? Should I belive the statistics?
My guess is that if economy of a country is almost a closed system, they can value GDP etc. arbitrarily high as they wish (Remember GDP per capita of East Germany was highly overevaluated during the cold war. I think the current Finnish statistics is no different.). I think Finland is in this situation. If Finland is pushed to a open free market, I guess actual Finnish GDP per capita should drop down to a quarter.
Comment by european — Thu, May 3rd, 2007 @ 1:18 am
Oh dear, is it contageous, stupidity I mean - Finland really, sorry to say, folks, does not differ in any significant way from, say, the other Nordic countries. You go to Slovakia, Lithuania, Romania whatever you have, and you can confirm that simple empirical fact. So, to refuse simple empirical facts because, hmm, “Finns are backward”, sounds, well, it really does sound, besides being braindead, racist. Have you been jilted by the famously independent minded Finnish women or have you encountered our unthinking Nordic superiority feeling about anything not “perfect” - well, you do sound quite alarming in any case.
Comment by mjr — Thu, May 3rd, 2007 @ 1:46 am
Harshness of the land moron. Size, geography, climate, lack of water, wildlife along with the harshness of the conditions brought on with European settlement. As for the tourism FACTS, look it up. Funny how Santa Claus Land isn’t very popular.
Comment by Punter — Thu, May 3rd, 2007 @ 7:48 am
Punter, you should shut up before you make any more damage to the foreigners in Finland.
Comment by Anonymous — Thu, May 3rd, 2007 @ 8:41 am
My guess is that if economy of a country is almost a closed system, they can value GDP etc. arbitrarily high as they wish
Sure they can, a while back Nepal decided to be the richest country in the world. OECD, IMF, CIA and the World Bank naturally adjusted their statistics accordingly.
Then again, knowing the absolute lack of sense of irony and knowledge by the kinds of you … hey, that was a joke. J O K E, got it?
By the way, have you ever considered the possibility that you could be wrong and the world right … if not, did you know that it’s not a shame to look for professional help?
Comment by Anonymous — Thu, May 3rd, 2007 @ 9:00 am
Harshness of the land moron.
What’s a “land moron”. You write amazingly poor English for an “Australian”.
Comment by Anonymous — Thu, May 3rd, 2007 @ 9:24 am
As for the tourism FACTS, look it up.
Yep, you’ve been smoking something alright.
Comment by Anonymous — Thu, May 3rd, 2007 @ 9:38 am
Why don’t you stop using a tag like “anonymous” and use a unique name that be easily followed? At least I would then know if there ws only 1 or and entire family of morons….
Can you not answer my questions? Check out our tourism and where are all of these aboriginie massacres details you were going to show? You criticize but never deliver any proof.
Comment by Punter — Thu, May 3rd, 2007 @ 2:25 pm
Hehe funny little bitchslapping catfight going on I see..
To add insult to injury, i have an opinion or two to add.. First of all, any GDP does not matter if you yourself make the wrong choices. Secondly, born canadian and havin lived in holland i can tell you that it really depends on yourself. If driving a big new car and drinking lots of beer and smoking is the bag you are into, then you are probably better off in Australia. But if you value calm peaceful safe living and you dont get depressed too easily you might be better of in Finland. In any case, i guarantee you that for example in Holland you pay more (municipal-, road- and salary-) taxes even though retail prices are cheaper. Canada however is up there without the sandy hot beaches on an island, but on the other hand they do not have to deal with scores of refugees trying to reach your shores by boat by the thousands. See here the big dilemma for the well educated.. Comparing GDP is numerical, how everyone else feels about it is irrelevant. Fact is that finnish society is a strong collective force in economic terms and it has the balance sheet to prove it. I disagree with finnish produce being of poor quality, instead i would never buy any food from Lidle as it is full of artificial additives. Also prices outside of Metropolitan area are much lower. But maybe that’s because I like fresh vegetables, potatoes and fish, water and air. It keeps the mind healthy and sharp; a prerequisite to earn a decent salary or run a healthy business. Finland might not be as laid back as Australia or as grandiose as Canada or as multicultural as Holland, but it has perfectly well-functioning airports to fly you anywhere you wish to go.. whats the point in hanging around bitching about taxes and Gdp in a country you anyways plan to leave or apparently got stuck in?
Comment by Craig — Thu, May 3rd, 2007 @ 3:36 pm
“whats the point in hanging around bitching about taxes and Gdp in a country you anyways plan to leave or apparently got stuck in?”
Exactly, if the bad outweights the good in your personal life then there is no point in staying and pissing others of with your semi-factual and non-factual complaints
Comment by Anonymous — Thu, May 3rd, 2007 @ 5:54 pm
As I have always said (including on this site) I am free to leave with my family anytime and the day we decide that is what’s best for us then we shall. In the meantime as a tax paying law abiding resident of Finland that has spent a long time learning the culture and establishing relationships here, I feel free and justified to give my opinion on things AS I SEE THEM.If anyone wishes to debate Australia r discuss aspects of Australian life then I’ve always been happy to match the good with the bad from “home.” Theo only problem I have here is when people criticize Australia and generalize and shoot out “facts” with little or no knowledge of the truth (apart from that available from Wikipedia) and then when pressed fail to deliver any evidence.
Ask me about my opinions on numerous Australian “wonders”, water management, gun control, energy politics, environmental matters, use of speed cameras for revenue raising etc etc etc and you will find a very unhappy citizen. Talk to me about racist Australians, a lower standard of living, a wasteland in the middle of nowhere or