45 Comments »

1. “If you don’t have a voluntary pension plan now, get one.”

   That’s a good point.

   When you think about how badly the high-tax Finnish welfare state rips you off, it makes you wonder why anyone would want to live here at all. I guess some don’t have a choice.

   Approaching middle age, my wife and I are sort of in that intermediate stage now—we can live-off investment income, but we’re not quite successful enough to live comfortably.

   In any case, we didn’t live in Finland during our ’saving years.’ It’s much easier to move ahead in countries where incomes are high and taxes are low.

   Also consider the high prices of goods and services in Finland. I’d say the cost of living is about 30% higher in Finland overall.

   That means spending money that could otherwise be invested for retirement :-/

   Comment by Kristian — Fri, Apr 20th, 2007 @ 12:00 pm

2. That guy on the left obviously just found out that he’s going to be in The Economist soon. “Oooooh!”

   Comment by Pave — Fri, Apr 20th, 2007 @ 12:04 pm

3. Hey Phil,

   You’ve really got me thinking now.

   My wife and I don’t eat very often at restaurants in Finland due to the high prices. I mean, entrees at 17€ and glasses of beer and wine for 5€???

   There are few bargains here, even when you travel away from the main city region. I don’t see how Finns can do it on their tiny over-taxed salaries. But I guess that explains the many empty restaurants here. At least you can always get a seat if you’re willing to pay the price

   We estimate that it would cost us at least 25€ overpayment each time if we skip desert and don’t drink too much. That’s not the meal itself but, rather, the amount over what it costs us in Germany, for example.

   So, instead, we’ve invest that 25€ each week in a growth mutual fund that yields 10% per-annum.

   In 25-years the value of our investment will amount to roughly 70,000€. So far, we’re right on target or maybe a bit over.

   Thanks again Phil! You provide a great service to the public.

   Comment by Kristian — Fri, Apr 20th, 2007 @ 1:06 pm

4. With all this money you’re saving by pretending to live in Germany and actually living in Finland, you will likely be the richest man in Europe soon.

   

   Comment by DAVE THE MAVE — Fri, Apr 20th, 2007 @ 1:27 pm

5. I think Kristian should stop eating all together. Think about all those preciousss euros he would save for his investments.

   Comment by N. Siinistö — Fri, Apr 20th, 2007 @ 1:33 pm

6. “With all this money you’re saving by pretending to live in Germany and actually living in Finland,”

   No pretending. We’ve been here for less than a year this time. But we always move back and forth due to family.

   We live like poor hounds here in Finland to save money. I guess if we were to stay longer, then we’d get used to it

   Comment by Kristian — Fri, Apr 20th, 2007 @ 1:39 pm

7. “No pretending. We’ve been here for less than a year this time. But we always move back and forth due to family.

   We live like poor hounds here in Finland to save money. I guess if we were to stay longer, then we’d get used to it ” - Kristian

   I don’t mean to sound pedantic or obsessive… I’m not stalking you. But, you say you’ve been “here” (presumably in Germany) then you say “here” (presumably in Finland).

   There must be some pretending going on, erm, “here.”

   Comment by DAVE THE MAVE — Fri, Apr 20th, 2007 @ 1:54 pm

8. No DAVE, when I say I’m “here” then I’m invariably talking about here in Finland. Sorry if I didn’t express it clearly enough…

   Comment by Kristian — Fri, Apr 20th, 2007 @ 2:02 pm

9. I’m 27 and recently when to see my insurance broker at Tapiola to discuss my YEL payments (I’m self-employed). When I asked if I should consider a supplementary private pension, he laughed and said I don’t need to worry until late 30s/40s. Is this typical Finnish advice? I was quite surprised, as this goes against practically everything I’ve read in UK/US.

   Comment by Kathryn — Fri, Apr 20th, 2007 @ 2:16 pm

10. Kristian of espoo, since you so often complain about Finnish life/taxes/laws in your posts and so many of your posts indicate that you are desparate to accumulate more money why don’t you just leave and stay gone?

    Comment by mog — Fri, Apr 20th, 2007 @ 2:29 pm

11. “”"So, instead, we’ve invest that 25€ weekly overpayment in a growth mutual fund that yields 10% per-annum.”"”

    Comment by born there — Fri, Apr 20th, 2007 @ 2:45 pm

12. what is >>> growth mutual fund in finnish ?

    Comment by born there — Fri, Apr 20th, 2007 @ 2:46 pm

13. mog: “why don’t you just leave and stay gone?”

    I have already stated above that we “always move back-and-forth due to family.” Did you happen to read that part?

    In fact, I’ve stated many times on Finland for Thought that we would like to see things improved because it affects our future plans. Again, it’s driven by family obligations; some are getting older…

    So, it’s not about being “desperate to accumulate more money” or anything like that, as you state it.

    But I do feel that it’s important to give people a context with which they can analyze their own financial wellbeing. How (or if) they use it, is entirely their choice.

    Comment by Kristian — Fri, Apr 20th, 2007 @ 3:00 pm

14. By the way, on the topic of Pensions….

    As people are getting older in Finland, Finland needs to attract highly qualified and educated workers from abroad to pay for existing pension obligations. I wonder how prospective immigrants would feel about such things as Finland’s open publishing of their financial and tax information…..
    http://www.finlandforthought.net/2007/04/19/finnish-tax-circus/

    Comment by Kristian — Fri, Apr 20th, 2007 @ 3:07 pm

15. Oh yes, and those prospective, highly-qualified immigrants will also have to pay for Finland’s alcohol policy problems.
    http://www.finlandforthought.net/2007/04/02/alko-alkoholi-and-the-fleecing-of-finland/

    Comment by Kristian — Fri, Apr 20th, 2007 @ 3:15 pm

16. And then there’s the healthcare thing…
    http://www.finlandforthought.net/2007/03/22/finnish-sairaalat-most-efficient-hospitals-in-the-nordics/

    Comment by Kristian — Fri, Apr 20th, 2007 @ 3:16 pm

17. And did I mention that cars cost nearly double here in Finland? Yes, one for the price of two!
    http://www.finlandforthought.net/2007/03/16/autovero-the-ultimate-ripoff/

    All these things are bad for investing. Sorry if I complain too much

    Comment by Kristian — Fri, Apr 20th, 2007 @ 3:20 pm

18. Been cherry picking surveys again, Phil? Not to speak of your strange sidekick, Kristian. In any case, this happens to be quite a relevant statistics for once: we will need significantly more immigrants into the country. Just to save a Pavlovian reflex by winter, Finland will no doubt prefer about half a million Palestinian suicide bombers! We good do all the necessary shielding work here, maybe with reduced taxes in honour of deep libertarian thought.

    Comment by mjr — Fri, Apr 20th, 2007 @ 3:36 pm

19. “Not to speak of your strange sidekick, Kristian.”

    Or mjr, our resident Commie on Finland for Thought

    Comment by Kristian — Fri, Apr 20th, 2007 @ 3:42 pm

20. Hmm, Kristian, just to let you ponder in your peculiarly libertarian way about my Communism:

    http://stockholmslender.blogspot.com/2006/03/good-old-times-when-we-sang-horst.html

    or

    http://stockholmslender.blogspot.com/2006/10/eesti-ajaloost.html

    Comment by mjr — Fri, Apr 20th, 2007 @ 3:45 pm

21. @13 Kristian of Espoo,
    “why don’t you just leave and stay gone?”

    I have already stated above that we “always move back-and-forth due to family.” Did you happen to read that part?

    In fact, I’ve stated many times on Finland for Thought that we would like to see things improved because it affects our future plans. Again, it’s driven by family obligations; some are getting older…

    So, it’s not about being “desperate to accumulate more money” or anything like that, as you state it.

    So you’re indicating you only spend what time you do in Finland out of “obligations” and not because you like it or want to be a part of the society. Is this why your posts are so typically self centred and greedy?
    Your endless stream of posts about taxes and ways of increasing personal wealth do show more desparation to accumulate more money than they do of social conscience or compassion.

    
    But I do feel that it’s important to give people a context with which they can analyze their own financial wellbeing. How (or if) they use it, is entirely their choice.

    Acknowledged, but why is it so overwhelmingly a financial issue with you?

    No doubt you’ve calculated the euro cost of caring for your elders at today’s exchange rate x some age factor x inflation and determined the most cost effective time for death down to the cent.

    Preferably you’ll realise there is more to life and calm down the bleating about tax/economics/money and the persuit of financial wealth.

    Comment by mog — Fri, Apr 20th, 2007 @ 4:37 pm

22. mjr is communist. more like the new kind not the old kind. Many Finns are communists. Should listen to good advice for a change. Finland is poor.

    Comment by seeker of truth — Fri, Apr 20th, 2007 @ 6:29 pm

23. seeker of truth
    You should realy travel a bit and then come here and say Finland is poor(thought I’m sure you have traveled all over the world already).

    Comment by bob — Fri, Apr 20th, 2007 @ 6:38 pm

24. How realistic is the immigration hail mary to save the retirees when the new immigration tsar is already getting death threats and such for having a policy of increasing immigration into Finland? I hope the government is hunkering down and preparing for the far more likely situation of having to dramatically scale back budgets and services when the boomers really start to retire en masse.

    Christopher Buckley, the brilliant satirist, just wrote “Boomsday” which is a scathing send up of how to solve problem of the retiring boomers in the US with a policy of voluntary suicide. It’s a funny book that won’t get much attention until it is a problem that cannot be ignored any longer.

    Comment by hfb — Fri, Apr 20th, 2007 @ 6:42 pm

25. “When you think about how badly the high-tax Finnish welfare state rips you off, it makes you wonder why anyone would want to live here at all. I guess some don’t have a choice.”

    You seem to have absolutely miserable time in here. Hope you find place enough for you……

    As for the Finns being modern communist society. Well why not as long as people in FINLAND dont complain(Havent seen much of riots lately about high taxes(have you?). Finland is doing well like other nordic countires for now and hopes are high that this little nation will do so for future.

    But then speaking here wont go anywhere. Most of here posting here got so strong opinions about these things that Its not realy worth to argue(and by the posts most are just to argue here) by ppl that tend to like current system, but with some tweaks or either ppl that dont like this system. Or other option is that some people that dont have a life and waisting theyre time about realy important things like Finns being realy that rich!?!

    Comment by Helsingfors — Fri, Apr 20th, 2007 @ 7:27 pm

26. “I hope the government is hunkering down and preparing for the far more likely situation of having to dramatically scale back budgets and services when the boomers really start to retire en masse.” -hfb

    Forced to choose, I would take “scaled back” Finnish services (say state medical, senior care) over the “fucked up” services that the US currently provides.

    Comment by DAVE THE MAVE — Fri, Apr 20th, 2007 @ 8:14 pm

27. “You should realy travel a bit”

    I live in Finland temporary though. My company pays me extra for the extra taxes etc. I wouldnt want to do it on a Finn salary. Nice country other than the economy and cost of living.

    Comment by Anonymous — Fri, Apr 20th, 2007 @ 8:37 pm

28. sorry that was me above

    Comment by seeker of truth — Fri, Apr 20th, 2007 @ 8:37 pm

29. What a great way to live your life. Save money and skip the restaurants. Life fullfilled. Happy transaction day whenever that is due.

    Comment by dudette — Fri, Apr 20th, 2007 @ 8:54 pm

30. Finland’s economy definitely sucks, Ireland grows faster. Here is a map describing the purchasing power in different European regions.
    http://www.english.mb-research.de/_mbr/presse/MBR-KK06_750.jpg
    Finns are dirt poor, Norwegians are much richer.

    Comment by Anonymous — Fri, Apr 20th, 2007 @ 9:35 pm

31. As Norway is even more of a welfare state than Finland, I take it that we must get more welfare structures and higher taxation to get richer?

    Could one of the assorted libertarians here post the Finnish GDP growth figures for the last, say 10-15 years? Do they show negative growth, hunger, famine, pestilence, boat refugees to California?

    Comment by mjr — Fri, Apr 20th, 2007 @ 10:00 pm

32. I’ll admit that my first post was a bit harsh. It wasn’t meant to sound that way. There are many things I like about Finland—less population density, nature, and it’s good to get away from the German mentality for a while. So I don’t mean to put everything in a bad light. I suppose I’m just a bit impatient about the pace of change. I’ve seen it occur piecemeal for the past 17-years. It’s going in the right direction, but I just wish it would progress faster.

    hfb: “How realistic is the immigration hail mary to save the retirees when the new immigration tsar is already getting death threats”

    My thoughts exactly hfb. I’m not against some immigration (insofar as I’m concerned, you’re always welcome back if we can play in the park with that orange rubber ball of yours ) but I’m not so convinced that Finland NEEDS immigration to solve its problems. Here’s the dilemma that Finns face:

    1). Keep the high-tax Socialism but lose the Finnish culture and heritage due to immigration;

    OR

    2). Lose the high-tax Socialism but keep the Finnish culture and heritage with less immigration.

    I’ve said many times that lower taxes will allow wealth to accumulate, so then immigration won’t be such a big necessity.

    A wealthy earner contributes more to the tax base than a modest earner—maybe even many times more—even if he is taxed at a lower percentage rate.

    But hey, maybe I’m focusing too much on finances and wealth. More important things to life, right?

    Comment by Kristian — Fri, Apr 20th, 2007 @ 10:28 pm

33. mjr: “As Norway is even more of a welfare state than Finland, I take it that we must get more welfare structures and higher taxation to get richer?”

    Or some oil wells.

    Comment by Kristian — Fri, Apr 20th, 2007 @ 10:32 pm

34. If I’m reading the colors correctly, it appears that part of the ex-DDR is at the same purchasing power level as Finland.

    http://www.english.mb-research.de/_mbr/presse/MBR-KK06_750.jpg

    Those are just averages of course. I can tell you that employed eastern Germans have a higher standard of living than Finns. We have a home there so it’s plain for us to see.

    Comment by Kristian — Fri, Apr 20th, 2007 @ 10:37 pm

35. If I’m reading the colors correctly

    That would be something like a miracle.

    Comment by Anonymous — Fri, Apr 20th, 2007 @ 10:41 pm

36. Well, dear me, who would have thought: so there ARE explanations other than the distance from being a libertarian paradise for the level of static wealth? So, maybe, just maybe Finland’s uniquely late industrialization (in the Western context) has got something to do with the situation? Just maybe - and probably it didn’t help to fight the WW2 on our own, to lose 13% of land area, pay huge war reparations and not get any Marshall aid. In fact we have caught up in the decades when we also turned into a Nordic welfare society, so, using libertarian logic, we need more welfare state structures to get more property. Not that property statistics would be nearly as meaningful as GDP for example.

    Comment by mjr — Fri, Apr 20th, 2007 @ 10:54 pm

37. Oh, just for the hell of it, here’s one for winter:

    http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/4/20/1179/27363

    Comment by mjr — Fri, Apr 20th, 2007 @ 10:58 pm

38. “Oh, just for the hell of it, here’s one for winter:” - mjr

    Don’t pick on him because he had a curable brain tumor as a kid but was unable to get care because his drunk mom didn’t have health care. That’s really mean.

    Comment by RAVE THE SLAVE — Sat, Apr 21st, 2007 @ 1:35 am

39. Dave - “Forced to choose, I would take “scaled back” Finnish services (say state medical, senior care) over the “fucked up” services that the US currently provides.”

    I don’t think you’re going to get a choice and by scaled back it may be more dramatic than people are willing to give. There have been a spate of articles about the dire state of elder care in Finland lately which might be ‘the good old days’ soon.

    Comment by hfb — Sat, Apr 21st, 2007 @ 6:29 am

40. According to the map the purchasing power of most Finns is quite average compared to other EU15 countries or a bit above. But that should be self-evident without any special studies. And for those who don’t know about Finland’s demography, like Kristian: most people live in the southern parts of the country. And perhaps one should warn the ignorant, like Kristian, that because of Finland’s equal income distribution labor-intensive services, in particular, tend to be expensive to the middle class.

    The comparison doesn’t include public services which is somewhat disadvantageous for Finns - and advantageous for Germans, for example. Finland’s total tax rate is, after all, a bit above the EU15 average and thus we pay for certain services via taxes while “others” have to pay for them directly.

    The bottom line is that Finland is somewhere among the, say, 15 least expensive countries in the world, and because of the low inflation and rapid growth getting less and less expensive. But in order to get full benefits one should earn a Finnish salary and get all public services. For a Latvian “rented” construction worker earning five euros an hour Finland is indeed expensive.

    Comment by Anonymous — Sat, Apr 21st, 2007 @ 12:40 pm

41. #40 “The bottom line is that Finland is somewhere among the, say, 15 least expensive countries in the world, and because of the low inflation and rapid growth getting less and less expensive.”

    Ahhhhhh….. No no no no

    Comment by Punter — Sat, Apr 21st, 2007 @ 12:50 pm

42. Ahhhhhh….. No no no no

    Punter got one of his cognitive-dissonance seizures. No fact can get through the tilulilulii barrier.

    Comment by Anonymous — Sat, Apr 21st, 2007 @ 1:00 pm

43. #40 “The bottom line is that Finland is somewhere among the, say, 15 least expensive countries in the world, and because of the low inflation and rapid growth getting less and less expensive.”

    You’ve got to be kidding, right? Among the 15 least expensive countries in the world? Sorry, but I haven’t heard anything that stupid in a very, very long time.

    Comment by aet75 — Mon, Apr 23rd, 2007 @ 5:31 pm

44. Among the 15 least expensive countries in the world? Sorry, but I haven’t heard anything that stupid in a very, very long time.

    Well, yeah, I thought about for a while and realized that Estonia is much cheaper, making Finland 16th. (How do you make the kieli poskella smiley, , here?) Anyway, what am I supposed to do with you kids who don’t know how to argue? You yourself retort to “arguments” like these: “Ah, no no no no no”, “and these people brag about the high standard of their education!”, “another baseless claim that mere observation doesn’t support” and your nonsense.

    Comment by Anonymous — Tue, Apr 24th, 2007 @ 6:22 pm

45. @44: Well, I could make up a preposterous claim like ‘Finland is the richest country in the world (which is closer to the truth than what you presented as the ‘bottom line’; try and google MOST EXPENSIVE countries in the WORLD)’, and then post it anonymously. But then I would not expect to be rewarded with well-conceived arguments.

    Comment by aet75 — Tue, Apr 24th, 2007 @ 11:54 pm

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