All the gun nuts are out there now, trying to prove how “guns do not kill people” and how it is necessary to have guns in order to overthrow big bad government.

Handguns are really good at overthrowning a government with air, naval and ground forces. Every year over 5000 children are killed in the US by guns , compared to about 100 in Germany or in the UK. In Finland probably less than 10.

Luckily we still have rather strict gun control and one does not get a permit for a Glock or assault rifle “for personal protection”.

Freedom for guns. Will they ever learn?

NRA-freaks are right: guns do not kill people. That’s why they should do something about it. They can’t abolish people, but they can abolish guns.

Such a caste system (cool–uncool)or continuation of high school culture at higher academic institutions only exists if one pays attention to it…

This is interesting…
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00046149.htm

“The rate for firearm-related deaths among children in the United States (1.66) was 2.7-fold greater than that in the country with the next highest rate (Finland, 0.62)”

“For example, five countries, including three of the four countries in Asia, reported no firearm-related deaths among children. In comparison, firearms were the primary cause of homicide in Finland, Israel, Australia, Italy, Germany, and England and Wales. ”

Wow, I moved to the most gun happy country in the world, to the second most gun happy country.

but they can abolish guns

I’m not pro-gun, but you can’t “abolish guns” in the U.S., there’s just too many of them.

The only thing worse than an American gun control debate is a Finnish debate on American gun control. The stats Phil gives in post 4 are interesting, but let’s not get distracted by facts or respectful grief or anything.

“to the second most gun happy country.”

That is true, too many guns in Finland. I think for a permit for shotgun you have to pass the hunter’s exam but for a handgun, is it enough just to join a gun club?

Finns would say, “The U.S. needs to have better gun control like we do in Finland!”. Yet, that would take the U.S. down to the 2nd worst of that list, however gun deaths would be cut in about half.

I reckon Finland has similar gun control as other European countries, most of whose gun violence is a tiny fraction of Finland’s. I think this demonstrates how “gun control” isn’t the perfect cure for gun violence. I think it’s more about history and culture.

‘too many guns in Finland’ (tim73)
How many would be enough? One reason these debates get so nasty is the other side suspects guys like you think law-abiding private citizens should not be allowed to own any guns at all under any circumstances. You want to confirm your prejudices, go to the Middle Beer commando: http://www.middlebeercommando.com/go/content/view/62/26/

Phil: “I think this demonstrates how “gun control” isn’t the perfect cure for gun violence. I think it’s more about history and culture.”

I think i have to agree with that. It would take hundreds of years without access to guns to fade away US history of gun slingery. I just don’t understand how Finland is in second place, since i can’t recall just about any similiar case in Finland where children were involved in a gun related shootout. There must be some but it sounds so uncommon. Maybe it’s because we have such tiny nation that even 10 incidents make the “per capita” statistics look quite big. I don’t know. I thought we were more into stabbing people.

And i would think that Brazil or other south-american nations would be on top of the list. Even before the US. But it could be because a lack of reporting?

I think this demonstrates how “gun control” isn’t the perfect cure for gun violence. I think it’s more about history and culture.

True. Still, gun control plays its part too. Mostly it prevents this kind of massacres – imagine if the guy would’ve used knife, he would probably have killed just a couple of people. Acquiring handguns is ridiculously easy in U.S. In Finland you need to go through all kinds of hassle especially if you want to buy 9mm Glock and the likes of that. Buying hunting weapons is somewhat easier, but I don’t consider them as dangerous as those easy-to-conceal pistols.

I wonder how many of the firearm-related deaths in Finland are done under the influence of alcohol.

Theres a bunch of statistics at the http://www.optula.om.fi/ website on crime. Most have an English summary – i think theres also some comparative analysis there. Sorry, too busy to look, but if you want Finnish crime statistics its all there. Theres also the % of “under influence” re. violence there somewhere.

That picture would be a good poster child picture for gun control.

The gun that he used, a 9mm Glock, was manufactured by the firm with the same name. It started business in 1963 manufacturing curtain rods.

And then branched into a wholly different business line, except that it is “curtains” for anyone who uses their products.

All the gun nuts are out there now, trying to prove how “guns do not kill people” and how it is necessary to have guns in order to overthrow big bad government.

And all the ban happy assholes who think gun legislation work are out there spreading their usual crap.

Handguns are really good at overthrowning a government with air, naval and ground forces. Every year over 5000 children are killed in the US by guns , compared to about 100 in Germany or in the UK. In Finland probably less than 10.

The iraqi insurgents are doing quite a good job of fucking up the US efforts in the area with their guns and improvised IED and guerilla tactics. The aim is not to win a strategic victory, it’s to make shit hard for the autocratically inclined government. That and guns are better off left free rather than controlled, gun crime and murders in america have decreased to 1960′s levels while gunownership have increased 40% per capita in roughly the same time. The reason for americas somwhat higher murder rate(its frankly not that horribly high) is a lack of a social security net and more extreme forms of poverty and the war on drugs to mention a few issues. Despite this guns are increasing in ownership and crime is going down anyway. Weird huh?

Luckily we still have rather strict gun control and one does not get a permit for a Glock or assault rifle “for personal protection”

We have possibly the most liberal gun control laws in europe bar Switzerland and they don’t really do anything but create a false sense of security. We also have more guns per capita than america.

In Switzerland, nearly every male has at least a rifle and pistol in his home. Other weapons are optional.

I’m pro-gun ownership. Most gun-related crime in the US happens in ethnic ghettos. That’s unfortunate. So should everyone else be denied the right to protect themselves?

I know someone (though not very well) who recently shot an armed robber in his store in the US. He received public congratulations from the town’s mayor. I’ll post the article if I can find it.

I realize there are bad things that can happen like in Virginia Tech, but giving up freedom to protect oneself is not the answer. In Europe, that store owner would have been seriously injured.

That is true, too many guns in Finland. I think for a permit for shotgun you have to pass the hunter’s exam but for a handgun, is it enough just to join a gun club?

The hell there are. I’m proud of Finland for having so many guns. We’re an awesome country and I’m doing my best to increase the ownership ratio. All of you should pitch in and buy guns, it’s a fun hobby!

“The aim is not to win a strategic victory, it’s to make shit hard for the autocratically inclined government.”

In Europe, we would let any dictator reign supreme. It’s the cowardly European way. European gun policy proves it….except Switzerland of course….and perhaps Finland too.

True. Still, gun control plays its part too. Mostly it prevents this kind of massacres – imagine if the guy would’ve used knife, he would probably have killed just a couple of people.

It does not prevent this kind of massacre, you are forgetting loads of other countries with their own massacres despite gun control. Gun Control does not work. They’ve had massacres in Germany with guns and they got helluva strict laws. In england they banned all guns after Dunblande massacre and they had strict gunlaws before, now after the ban it hasn’t affected crime or murder rates in the slightest. Oh yeah gun laws work… yeah right! They only work if you think guns cause crime, rather than the opposite, lots of crime causes a market for guns. Banning guns also makes them more expensive, making smuggling more attractive which usually gets the mafia involved and so forth. A ban is just a death spiral and gun control is nothing more than false security.

In Europe, we would let any dictator reign supreme. It’s the cowardly European way. European gun policy proves it….except Switzerland of course….and perhaps Finland too.

Yes the amount of power and regulation people want to give tot he government freely is depressing. Has made me think of moving to America if Finland looses it’s excellent gun control laws for something more draconian and horrible. This country (and switzerland) is like a beacon in the darkness to me.

#16 This is an extrodinalrily fragmented statement with no barings to the social context of this situation whats so ever. Are you serious? Everyone knows someone who protected themself from something at some point and you are using that as an example for widespread massacre. really? Secondly, you mentioned “most gun voilence happen in ethnic ghettos and that’s unfortunate.” That, I won’t even touch because it’s abvious that you need some classes in urban sociology wherever you’re at. Two thumbs down and a middle finger up to you for your stupidity and wanton unintelligent comment. Think before you write nonesence. Switzerland, indeed!!!

I don’t know – as I don’t think God wrote the Second Amendment I have nothing preventing using reason on this issue: you should surely have the right to self-defence but on the other hand it should be significantly more difficult, restricted and controlled to buy guns than milk. Surely no-one disagrees? Guns don’t kill but it seems that American gun culture and seeming acceptance of fairly casual citizen violence does lead to more people being killed in gun related violence than in the rest of the Western world. Of course, if one thinks that the price is worth paying, as there is this strangely obscure text, written by Jesus, that is taken to imply that every American should carry a concealed hand weapon to eradicate violent crime, then that’s fine: this one is for the Americans to decide (and hopefully not NRA).

Optula (Hank’s source, http://www.optula.om.fi/uploads/ldhpbb7.pdf): 16% of Finnish homicides in 2005 were done with a gun, 59% of the guns used were illegal. (Plurality of homicides were done with knives, hands and feet were number two weapon of choice.) So removing legal guns would have potentially affected about 6% of Finnish homicides. 75% of the victims and 80% of the perpetrators were working-age persons without employment, 82% of the male suspects and 85% of the male victims were drunk. I think getting these guys working and sober would be more useful than any security theatre gun control.
On page 18 there’s statistics on young homicides but nothing on the weapons used. Still, under 15′s are given a figure of 0.1 homicides per 100 000 kids per year for the period 1996-2005. Phil’s figure in post 4 (0.4 gun-related homicides per 100 000 per year) is from an earlier period (1990-1995), but the difference is striking. Comparing crime statistics across different jurisdictions is notoriously hard, but homicides are supposed to be pretty much the same in any legal system…

The 2nd amendment isn’t written by god nor does it have to be in order to still be a powerfull symbol of indivudual freedoms and rights. That was just plain bad argument.

but it seems that American gun culture and seeming acceptance of fairly casual citizen violence does lead to more people being killed in gun related violence than in the rest of the Western world.

We glorify violence in europe too, it’s not really relevant as the prime motivator for american gun violence is almost entierly related to poverty and drugs and teh areas most affected by this. What americans need is a strong social safety net and better education and less draconian drug laws. That will work, bans and regulation doesn’t unless you are willing to turn your country into China or Singapore, and none of us would like to live in such shitholes.

Of course, if one thinks that the price is worth paying, as there is this strangely obscure text, written by Jesus, that is taken to imply that every American should carry a concealed hand weapon to eradicate violent crime, then that’s fine: this one is for the Americans to decide (and hopefully not NRA).

1. This isn’t the price of having little gun control as it happens even in countries with gun control.
2. It is not implied, it is a freedom you can choose to utilise as long as you are not a violent criminal, you don’t have to use it.
3. It won’t eradicate violent crime, nor will gun control.

POD: “I think getting these guys working and sober.”

I agree. There’s a similar problem in US ghettos. However in the US there is an added factor of anti-drug laws which contribute to high profit margins for dealers. The laws provide plenty of incentive to kill.

USA is a nation build on slavery and genocide of the native American Indians.

The roots of incidents like VT and Columbine 8 yrs
ago are very deep in the Nation’s history and culture, just like Phil said above.

The most dangerous gun is the gun bought “just for fun” and laying in a shoebox, next to pack of ammos. Add to that a domestic incident or a bunch of guys and barrel of beer. That is why we need strict gun control. That is NOT THE SAME THING AS TOTAL BAN.

“In Europe, we would let any dictator reign supreme. It’s the cowardly European way”

Have Americans risen against their dictatorial-like government with all their handguns? King St. Dubya and his gang are screwing them both ways and they still do nothing or little. Flag somebody terrorists and human rights go out of the window. Torture scandals, Gitmo and Iraq hellhole. Big bad government is already there, with or without handguns.

You know who really deserves a majority of the blame? The media. They are the ones making these incidents into massive circuses. After all the noise of Columbine (which was done with illegal firearms in a state with very strong gun control laws by the way, not all of america is the same you know!) it was only expected that school and mass shootings where not going to stop, they where going to get worse. This meme has been inserted into the public consciousness and already several psychos have acted on it. Thats why these are occuring more, well it’s my pet theory anyway, we’re seeing a copy-cat effect.

The most dangerous gun is the gun bought “just for fun” and laying in a shoebox, next to pack of ammos. Add to that a domestic incident or a bunch of guys and barrel of beer. That is why we need strict gun control. That is NOT THE SAME THING AS TOTAL BAN.

No it’s just completely and utterly wrong and in violation of reality. WE DON’T NEED GUN CONTROL IT DOESN’T WORK, NEVER HAS! GUN ACCIDENTS HAVE DROPPED 60% SINCE THE 1970s WHILE GUNOWNERSHIP HAS RISEN 40% AND GUN ACCIDENTS ARE THE SECOND LAST CAUSE OF ACCIDENTAL DEATHS IN THE NATION, IT IS MORE DANGEROUS TO WALK ON THE STREET BY FAR! We don’t need gun control, we’re doing better and better without it.

I hope the ALL CAPS got the facts into your head.

Accidents for all age groups:
Accident Type
Automobile 43,000
Falls 16,200
Poisoning by solids, liquids 11,700
Pedestrian 5,300
Drowning 3,900
Fires, burns 3,600
Suffocation by ingested object 3,400
Firearms 600
Poisoning by gases, vapors 40

tim73: “Have Americans risen against their dictatorial-like government with all their handguns?”

Well, they’d need brains too. Not just guns

Seriously, at this point, America can still be changed politically. I don’t think violent uprising is necessary. Besides, America’s foreign policy doesn’t affect the common man anyway—at least not the American common man :-/

No, my dear Asshole (a rare sentence in my texts) I merely said that if you think that things are fine and dandy, and that gun control doesn’t work anyway, then quit whining and be happy with the situation. God given rights don’t come free.

Btw, if gun control doesn’t work, should it be abolished altogether: no waiting periods, no background checks, maybe no age limits either? I mean no-one hears of milk control either or peanut butter control.

This Cho kid appears to have planned this attack. For headcases like hi, I don’t think increased gun restrictions would have made any difference. 1) You can easily get guns illegally. 2) He would have just made a homemade bomb instead (think about the Myyrmaki Mall incident a few years back). I reckon bombs can do more damage than handguns.

I think when the media and everyone else blames the guns, they’re completely missing the real cause. Ban guns or give them out for free, it won’t change people’s violent behavior.

“Ban guns or give them out for free, it won’t change people’s violent behavior.”

Nor will it prevent them from committing violent acts. Easily-built homemade bombs will kill far more people—randomly!—than handguns.

Btw, if gun control doesn’t work, should it be abolished altogether: no waiting periods, no background checks, maybe no age limits either? I mean no-one hears of milk control either or peanut butter control.

I actually favor some control, but thats only the background checks that there are now. I would also support mandatory gun safes for people owning 5 guns or more(like here in finland), thats something that could work.

But other than that, keep the laws where they are now, maybe reopen the registries thaty where closed in 1986. It doesn’t really affect people that much, and states can govern their own laws to whatever degree they want, thusly people who like guns can move to such states and vice versa.

#27: “USA is a nation built on slavery and genocide of Native Americans”—how profound

Fine, and Finland is a nation built on geographical and cultural marginalization of the Sami…

What happened in Virginia is a result of a boy/man with worms in his brains who went ape shit and shot a bunch of innocent people…

State Universities are quite definitely gun-free zones, so he was breaking Virginia or US law by even having the gun on campus..

This unfortunately stirs up the gun control debate much more than it does the Anger Management in American Culture debate…apparently this boy had written some disturbing stuff that had even caused his professors to notify the police…

Don’t blame the guns, blame the humans. I knew there is going to be some jack ass blaming the guns..ohhh, that big bad gun went around killing…forget the fact that it was this mental case that killed…but NOOO it was the gun that killed…well, at least he blew himself away. that saves tax payers the stress…now let his corps rot in hell where it belongs….blaming guns ? no blame you mother for giving birth to your dumb commi butt.

Making your own guns from hardware parts found in stores:
http://www.thehomegunsmith.com/

So yeah, guns aren’t that hard to make if you got the time and skill, I could do it if I really wanted to. But I obey the law.

oh, by the way, I’m pro gun and I love all my 8 firearms I own…don’t ban guns. ban humans..hahahah. Just call me a gun hugger. save the guns , save the guns…ban more humans, ban more humans…

Phil, if that was the case murder rates would be indentical accross the world, they are not. I’m sure laughably easy access to guns is a significant contributing factor. Also the death penalty must affect too: if you are going anyway why not take as many people with you as you can. But more important surely are the hopeless slums with broken down educational systems combined with unreasonably harsh punishments and an irrational prohibition of drugs in a society where drugs are there to stay. Both social mobility and social cohesion are very low in America: to add into this situation this bizarre cult of the firearm is surely not helping. You can’t legilate away this situation, true, but you can still take certain precautionary steps. If you are able to think rationally that is, but as we know Jesus wrote the Second Amandment with the purpose of every law abiding American to carry a concealed hand weapon to eradicate violent crime on the streets and having a set of assault rifles to defend their homes from murderers. That’s what that militia business means, you see.

Phil, if that was the case murder rates would be indentical accross the world, they are not. I’m sure laughably easy access to guns is a significant contributing factor.

It hasn’t been proven. Given that crime has dropped while gun ownership has risen, there is no real connection that can be made to guns causing crime.

But more important surely are the hopeless slums with broken down educational systems combined with unreasonably harsh punishments and an irrational prohibition of drugs in a society where drugs are there to stay.

Now here you hit the nail on the head OTOH.

Both social mobility and social cohesion are very low in America: to add into this situation this bizarre cult of the firearm is surely not helping.

It’s hardly a bizzarre cult. Please stop that kind of stereotyping.

If you are able to think rationally that is, but as we know Jesus wrote the Second Amandment with the purpose of every law abiding American to carry a concealed hand weapon to eradicate violent crime on the streets and having a set of assault rifles to defend their homes from murderers. That’s what that militia business means, you see.

You can’t buy assault rifles in america wihout massive costs and rigours checking from the ATF. Add to that no new automatic firearms are allowed into the registries since 1986, so all existing guns are expensive as hell and they are all there is. Secondly it’s not a requirement.

Let’s end this discussion since we all know too well that heavy metal music is to be blamed for all of this.

I doubt most people with any experience of guns would want just any a-hole and klutz to have access any and every sort of gun. Or to quote a recent graduate of the Finnish intti, ‘I don’t want to be within range if those bozos are ever given live ammo.’ Barring convicted criminals and obviously mentally unbalanced individuals from having guns is cool with pretty much everyone. I’ve never seen anyone defend possession of WMD (although you might just find some hard core Libertarian doing that, if you looked). So it’s not a question of control/no control but how much control and what good does it do. I just don’t see how a US govt that has failed rather in enforcing its drug laws would succeed in preventing people from having all the guns they really wanted to have. And we don’t have a problem here in Finland, either. No moral panics, please.

So sad. What makes one go on such a killing spree. I understand why he would want to kill a girlfriend, but why 31 extra? These kids in big schools in rural places really should have always someone to talk at the school.

Well, I would go as far as to say that gun control cannot happen in isolation and that in isolation in the American situation it would not have as much impact as we often sanctimonious besser-wissers in Europe would think. We easily connect our situation with our legislation and that is not the complete story at all. Still, rationality and irrationality are the same whether in Europe or in America, and the NRA positions and talking points that I have parodied here are irrational. Fullstop. It is not to overthrow American liberty to tighten the gun laws, it is to protect it. But as said, mere legislation won’t be huge help – it must be accompanied with changing mentalities and social structures. You can’t legislate violence away in a free society.

I doubt most people with any experience of guns would want just any a-hole and klutz to have access any and every sort of gun.

I’ve got a small arsenal myself and getting a 1911 and shotgun soon again, and I think finnish gun licensing should be like licensing for cars. If you pass the requirements for handling a certain type of firearm (.22 caliber weapons, single shot rifles, shotguns, pistols and semiautomatic rifles) you should be able to buy firearms for all the categories you are approved for, no questions asked after you pass the license, get as many as you want, you have to store them though.

I’ve never seen anyone defend possession of WMD (although you might just find some hard core Libertarian doing that, if you looked).

Wouldn’t be very libertarian. Sounds anarcistic.

So it’s not a question of control/no control but how much control and what good does it do.

Yes, I can see in the US that background checks do work more or less, but anything else is like pissing into the wind, I mean even in more gun free europe we have not prevented mass shootings and many countries like england has twie the burglary rates and violent crime and so on(canada is another country but they aren’t european).

“You can’t buy assault rifles in america wihout massive costs and rigours checking from the ATF”

So do you wanna militia or not? Or handgun only-militia?

“Let’s end this discussion since we all know too well that heavy metal music is to be blamed for all of this.”

No you moron, ABBA is to blame.

American drug policy hard at work.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pj4yUpR1PB0

DEA = Drug Enforcement Agency

So do you wanna militia or not? Or handgun only-militia?

It’s irrelevant what I want. The federgal government closed the machine gun registries in 1986, so there can be no more automatic guns than there already are, even though they where hard to get before they are insanely expensive now as well, since the supply is ever diminishing. It’s easier getting a full-auto in Finland. Which you can if you are a licensed collector.

Let’s just do a simple cost/benefit analysis of the accessibility of guns.

Costs: accidental shootings, killings done at the spar of the moment with a weapon that can kill by a quick squeeze on the trigger usually by someone in a temporary rage or drunk who would not otherwise kill someone if such an efficient weapon was not available, and a tool for criminals to be able to overpower their victims

Benefits: perhaps, in rare cases, a potential crime victim might come up on top in an adversial situation with a criminal

For myself, if I need protection, I will use my trigger finger and dial the police on my mobile phone.

If a gun was laying around my house, it is more likely to be used in the commission of one of the costs and not the single benefit.

“For myself, if I need protection, I will use my trigger finger and dial the police on my mobile phone.”

Keep dreaming

They’ll get there in time to collect the evidence….your mobile phone included.

“If a gun was laying around my house, it is more likely to be used in the commission of one of the costs and not the single benefit.”

That might very well be true in your case. I won’t second-guess you on that one

@mjr,
I have the impression that US debates on gun control have the same problem as US debates on abortion: one side assumes the other side is not out to make reasonable restrictions (no assault rifles, no very late term abortions) but to ban the whole thing a little at a time. Unfortunately these suspicions are not entirely without reason, either. This makes for a fanatical anti-slippery slope defense that isn’t fully rational.
@MA,
there’s licenses and licenses even for cars. I can drive a car but not a truck. I know a guy who can drive a fuel tanker on an airfield. He has to pass a test every year or he loses his permit or whatever it’s called. So how about making reasonable distinctions?

Let’s just do a simple cost/benefit analysis of the accessibility of guns.

Lets not. Liberty isn’t a question of cost/benefits, besides you bungled the hell out of the comparison by working on an assumption that gun control would stop any of the below:

Costs: accidental shootings, killings done at the spar of the moment with a weapon that can kill by a quick squeeze on the trigger usually by someone in a temporary rage or drunk who would not otherwise kill someone if such an efficient weapon was not available, and a tool for criminals to be able to overpower their victims

We got all these things in countries with harsh gun control, some of the worst countries are the ones with actual bans, fat load of good that did them, huh.

Benefits: perhaps, in rare cases, a potential crime victim might come up on top in an adversial situation with a criminal

Various research results have yielded results of 80,000 to 2,5 million cases of a gun used in self-defence per year in america, and 98% of them never required the firing of a single shot.

For myself, if I need protection, I will use my trigger finger and dial the police on my mobile phone.

Thats your perogative. Your life.

If a gun was laying around my house, it is more likely to be used in the commission of one of the costs and not the single benefit.

Patently false. The idea that a gun is more likely to be used against you has shown to be false many times, it is infact the most effective method of self defence.

there’s licenses and licenses even for cars. I can drive a car but not a truck. I know a guy who can drive a fuel tanker on an airfield. He has to pass a test every year or he loses his permit or whatever it’s called. So how about making reasonable distinctions?

I did make reasonable distinctions by dividing them, thats about all there ought to be. Time-limited licenses serves no purpose whatsoever but to increase buerocracy, and possibly a false sense of security, we don’t got those in Finland now either because they are worthless.

Kristian and Monumental Asshole:

If the cost/benefit is, as you say, so much in favour of gun ownership, then perhaps, more efficient guns should be allowed to even further this perceived benefit.

Just think of the benefits if assault weapons were allowed, instead of mere handguns.

Why do people who say “guns don’t kill people” think they’re saying something clever?

If the cost/benefit is, as you say, so much in favour of gun ownership, then perhaps, more efficient guns should be allowed to even further this perceived benefit.

Strawman, I hadn’t illustrated that there was an actual cost/benefit improvement for owning handguns either (although philosophically the increase of liberty is very nice). Only that your premise was flawed.

Just think of the benefits if assault weapons were allowed, instead of mere handguns.

Benefits would be more choices for people, but again thats a philosophical argument and not a cost/benefit perspective, I do not really believe in the cost/benefit angle. But since we’re discussing it, lethality wise full-auto is not really that usefull to kill people with to be honest, you’re more likely to waste shots than hit someone, it’s mostly used for suppression fire by soldiers to keep the other guys heads down. Otherwise the doctrine is to use single-shot mode.

There is a good website that is actually a tutorial for classes in Pathology at the University of Utah in which firearm death and injury issues are discussed.

http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNSTAT.html

In it, it mentions that the use of firearms in cases of protection is far outnumbered by cases of homicides, accidents, suicides, etc.

With respect to philosophical issues of freedom (which Monumental Asshole preaches as a reason to be allowed handguns), perhaps, his notion of freedom should also allow everyone to have a rocket propelled grenade launcher just in case your homestead is attacked by a criminal driving up to it in an armoured vehicle.

Frankly speaking, if you live in a neighborhood where you have to arm yourself to the teeth, then you should consider moving, or becoming politically active and try to get a more responsive police presence.

Freedom, for me, is not to the right to carry a piece around.

Freedom, for me, is to have peace of mind.

Finland’s Gun laws are odd. I have two rifles that would be illegal in Finland, but I can get a permit for them when I move back ‘for sentimental reasons’ (They were my Grandfathers.)

Anyway, Finn’s should be the last group in Europe to lecture the US on Gun control;)

Funny, how all the attention is on the guns. This kid was identified as being mentally unstable and demonstrated an ability to commit violence through his writings. He was ever referred to the police, however, since he had not done anything illegal at that point, there was nothing they could do. How about blaming the lawyers and ‘rights’ groups for allowing this person to refuse needed treatment, instead to roam around like a ticking timebomb.

Same for Mohamad Atta. Until he actually hijacked the plane, the Government had little evidence against him. Had he been arrested that morning as he went to board the flight, a good portion of the US, would be made at the Government for treating him like a criminal.

In it, it mentions that the use of firearms in cases of protection is far outnumbered by cases of homicides, accidents, suicides, etc.

13 different surveys through the decades disproves this one source: http://www.guncite.com/kleckandgertztable1.html

The most conservative estimates indicate ~700,000 uses per year, far surpassing the total amount of murdered people each year, alot of others indicate which far outweigh the number of dead from guns per year.

With respect to philosophical issues of freedom (which Monumental Asshole preaches as a reason to be allowed handguns), perhaps, his notion of freedom should also allow everyone to have a rocket propelled grenade launcher just in case your homestead is attacked by a criminal driving up to it in an armoured vehicle.

Another reason is that no good has ever shown to come from gun control. Nothing anywhere indicates it makes you safer at all. Thus encroaching on liberties have no real gain. The obvious conclusion is to pursue other paths, such as the actual root causes like poverty and drugs.

Freedom, for me, is not to the right to carry a piece around.

Freedom, for me, is to have peace of mind.

Thats not freedom, thats security, traded for freedom.

Peter: “more efficient guns should be allowed to even further this perceived benefit.

Just think of the benefits if assault weapons were allowed, instead of mere handguns.”

That’s a valid point Peter, but assault weapons aren’t necessarily the better choice in every case, tactically speaking.

For example, if you are protecting from within your home, a handgun is arguably much easier to handle. That’s especially true for an older person, from whom a long-barreled weapon could more easily be wrestled away. For this reason my own parents have a revolver (.357) in the bedroom. On mom’s side of the bed, since dad travels a lot.

Revolver vs. Semi-automatic handgun? I like the revolver for its simplicity. Semi’s are good if you practice regularly. This is only my opinion though; I realize these ‘best choice’ discussions can get religious rather quickly.

When considering a handgun, it might be safe to argue that a large caliber, hollow-tip bullet that mushrooms upon impact would be best for stopping power and to prevent over-penetration (through wall partitions, etc.).

Or… As in the case of America, the walls are made of cardboard anyway, so maybe small diameter, high-velocity would be good. You could shoot at your target straight through the wall partitions if necessary. Hence, an AK47….assuming you’re strong enough to prevent it from being wrestled away in tight quarters.

Shotguns are good too of course—won’t over-penetrate and slightly better chance of hitting a vital area. But also limited manageability and low capacity in some cases.

As you can see, these decisions are tactical in nature. Understanding your environment beforehand is a great benefit. There’s no single-best solution.

All this gun control talk is nuts. This guy who killed 32, was nuts, and no amount of gun control would have stopped him. What got stopped, was the rights of now dead students to defend themselves, because of Virginia School gun control laws.

Don’t come and rob anyone in my neighborhood, the neighborhood will be armed, and shooting (Hitting is another issue). If this nut had walked down my street shooting people, he would have died in a hail of return gun fire, not by his own hands.

65 was me

“In it, it mentions that the use of firearms in cases of protection is far outnumbered by cases of homicides, accidents, suicides, etc.”

“Homicides, accidents, suicides, etc.” are obviously very easy to quantify.

But I don’t think there is enough reliable data to determine how often firearms are used in “cases of protection.” That’s especially true when you consider the ‘deterrent’ factor.

That is, randomly breaking-into an American’s or Swiss person’s home would not be wise—even a Finn’s for that matter, if he lives outside of the city…

Go for the German’s or Brit’s home instead. It’ll heighten your odds of enjoying the rest of the evening.

“allow everyone to have a rocket propelled grenade launcher just in case your homestead is attacked by a criminal driving up to it in an armoured vehicle.”

Sure, if that were a normal condition where you live. Unfortunately, places like that exist in this world. But fortunately, I don’t live in one of them.

“Frankly speaking, if you live in a neighborhood where you have to arm yourself to the teeth, then you should consider moving,”

And I’m sure you’ll pay for all their relocation expenses….

Not everyone who lives in a ghetto chooses to live there. Getting “politically active” is valid, but a slow and dangerous process—especially if you are campaigning against drug dealers.

You might succeed in getting rid of them—i.e. pushing them into the next neighborhood—but would you be prepared to protect your home and family in the meantime?

@ Fred Fry (post 62):

There’s no such thing as a thought crime. Well, there is, but it’s only in use in totalitarian states like North Korea. Without a plausible cause or reason we can’t start apprehending people “just because”. If there’s really no evidence of a person planning to do something illegal we can’t do anything about it. If you want to abolish this basic freedom where the burden of proof is on the officials then you’re someone who’s voting for a police state where people live without any basic rights.

“Funny, how all the attention is on the guns. This kid was identified as being mentally unstable and demonstrated an ability to commit violence through his writings. He was ever referred to the police, however, since he had not done anything illegal at that point, there was nothing they could do. How about blaming the lawyers and ‘rights’ groups for allowing this person to refuse needed treatment, instead to roam around like a ticking timebomb.”

According this logic, Guns don’t kill people, pens do…

Thing I’m still puzzled about, understanding it’s not very easy to evacuate college area of this size, was no stress concerned before second incident because it’s not that unordinary for the shoot-out to happen in the break of day?

The pen is mightier than the sword.

“The pen is mightier than the sword.”

Yes! Or a bayonet on the end of an AK47 or shotgun!

That would be perfect for home protection. Maybe not as maneuverable as a handgun, but you could really pin someone with it if necessary.

Thanks for the idea.

Take a shotgun shell, open it up and empty out the lead balls, leave teh wad, then fill it with ball point pens and tighten it up. Load into a old fashioned side by side shotgun. The pen is mightier than the sword I say.

Yep a campus full of students carrying firearms “to protect themselves” doesn’t sound safe to me – confined spaces, lot’s of inexperienced gun-slingers, someone goes on a rampage – mass shoot-out. I’d rather be somewhere else when the vigilanties start shooting.

#73 “Yep a campus full of students carrying firearms “to protect themselves” doesn’t sound safe to me”

I guess Israel wouldn’t be the right place for you.

#74

If you are going to quote, quote the whole thing and then say something “meaningful” againt my reasoning of why I wouldn’t feel safe in a such place.

So would you Kristian be perfecty happy to know that you have such “fine” marksmen covering your back as every idiot on campus is allowed to “protect themselves”. Nevermind the fact that while they are protecting themselves they may and will shoot someone innocent.

“I guess Israel wouldn’t be the right place for you.”

Usually atleast the majority of them have military training and some skill to use a firearm. Unlike your average joe american.

Hmm, I think the pro-gun side here makes the picture pretty clear – guns are obviously a part of the problem of social violence, clearly not the solution: they are not meant or expected to be a solution. I just don’t see any way to rationally deny this point. Then again you might argue that “liberty” (almost obligation) for all law abiding citizens to carry guns, concealed, automatic, heavy calibre, you name it, Kristian loves it, is worth that social cost (especially as mere legislation in itself won’t be of decisive help), and that’s fine. That’s a logical position, bizarre maybe, but logical. No liberty comes without cost – the question here is what price is reasonable. NRA has one answer, the regularly polled majority of the American people another, and elected politicians a third. It’s your country, you decide. Except if it is a powerful and wealthy minority, even fringe, lobby that decides, but anyway.

Also the death penalty must affect too: if you are going anyway why not take as many people with you as you can.

Good point. I wonder how many madmen have that rational.

But more important surely are the hopeless slums with broken down educational systems combined with unreasonably harsh punishments and an irrational prohibition of drugs in a society where drugs are there to stay. Both social mobility and social cohesion are very low in America: to add into this situation this bizarre cult of the firearm is surely not helping.

But I’m guessing this kid came from a good family with money, and I doubt he was on drugs. (illegal drugs that is)

No, I haven’t been much talking about this tragic case: these multiple killings are rare even in the USA and the gun debate probably has little to offer here in the narrow sense. I’m more satirizing NRA (a despicable organization whose influence corrupts the political process) that regularly offers its unpleasant talking points when a massacre like this happens, a disgusting spectacle. I’m sure tighter control won’t solve this kind of extreme situations (though of course if a non-criminal person flips it would be at least good to make guns less easily available – sheer availability and even certain social exaltation of guns are surely factors even in these special cases). Anyway, not much wisdom to offer about this particular tragedy – of course universities and schools should try to be pre-emptive and not let people isolate themselves into violent paranoia, but that’s easier said than done.

Cars are specifically designed not to kill people. Aeroplanes are specifically designed not to kill people.

To drive a car, you need to pass a test and convince doctor you can see and hear.

To fly an aeroplane, you need to pass a test, convince the doctor + have your head examined.

Guns are designed to kill. To get one, you do what? Show your ability to walk through a revolving door?

Surullinen tapaus, sellaista on vapaus, as Lauri Viita put it.

“Yep a campus full of students carrying firearms “to protect themselves” doesn’t sound safe to me – confined spaces, lot’s of inexperienced gun-slingers, someone goes on a rampage – mass shoot-out. I’d rather be somewhere else when the vigilanties start shooting.”
– He shot over 50 people. All unarmed and unable to protect themselves, as liberals want it.

Huge warning signs:
—————————-
The Virginia Tech gunman was taken to a mental health facility in 2005 after university authorities received complaints against him by two female students and others became afraid he was suicidal, it has been revealed.

Virginia Tech police chief Wendell Flincham confirmed moments ago that Cho Seung-Hui had targeted two female students in November and December of 2005.

He made contact with the first woman through phone calls and in person. Though she complained to police, she later declined to press charges, referring to Cho’s attentions as “annoying”.

The matter was then handled within the university, outside the scope of police.

Cho instant messaged the second woman in December, 2005. She asked police to ensure he had no further contact with her, and police gave Cho a warning regarding the matter.

Later police became aware of concerns that Cho was suicidal.
—————————-

You don’t have to force treatment on him. However, you should be able to kick him out of school for failure to act on problems identified by the school. Sad for the girls who did not file police reports. This is one mark against lienency.

Hmm. Captain Haddock has changed his name here to Monumental Asshole? Just wondering cos you both are gun nuts and quote using bold text.

Anyway, here’s a good summary and interesting insight: http://womensspace.wordpress.com/2007/04/17/cho-sueng-hui-and-the-virginia-tech-massacre-these-are-the-sons-america-has-raised/

Off topic. European happiness survey

http://www.admin.cam.ac.uk/news/dp/2007041701 .

“The map of European well-being also puts paid to some long-standing national stereotypes. In particular, the idea that people are happiest along the sunny banks of the Mediterranean does not appear to be true. Italy, Portugal and Greece are consistently among the lowest-scoring countries in the survey, while the highest scores were registered in the chillier surrounds of Sweden, Finland and the Netherlands, as well as among the table-topping Danes.”

“Usually atleast the majority of them have military training and some skill to use a firearm. ”

Yeah, training for civilians is a good idea. Much of that should be scenario-based and not only weapons handling.

I agree with those who say that the VT incident could have been stopped sooner. Any chance would have been better than none. In this case, they obviously had no chance to stop it.

One thing regarding the restriction of guns… Reduced availability of guns would ensure that knowledge of bomb making will spread. It’s not that hard; the ingredients are available everywhere. People are adaptable that way.

This guy could just as easily have thrown an explosive into a classroom and then blown himself up. That’ll be the new thing after they take away guns.

Antti rn, in 81

I agree 100%.

A background check on this shooter in Virginia would have revealed his run-ins with the police.

And his psychological problems.

And the potential danger of allowing him to own a gun.

How many times have I seen in a bar a guy suddenly getting beer muscles and takes a swing at someone.

How the outcome could be so different if, instead of “beer muscles”, the guy gets a “beer trigger finger”.

Very easily, instead of a black eye, one or two deaths could occur instead when a gun is pulled out and shooting starts.

The less guns floating around, the safer most of us will be.

VTECH JUST KICKED IN YO!

I wonder if it’ll ever be legal to shoot people for looking funny.

Or what about ladies who wear too much repulsive perfume?

And graffiti painters?

So many possibilities that haven’t been fully explored yet….

Off topic. European happiness survey

I swear, it seems like they do 8 of those a year.

“A background check on this shooter in Virginia would have revealed his run-ins with the police.”
– A background check was required to purchase those weapons.
– Since he was never arrested, there would not be anything of interest when they checked. Which was why I made the comment about the women NOT filing charges. That is what creates a record.

I talked about this in another forum. While I have no other solution to America’s gun crime problem other than banning guns altogether. The problem is that America is too entrenched in it’s gun culture (200+ years strong). I don’t want to see guns banned or the 2nd Amendment repealed. But let’s face it, the banning of guns in America will never happen. There’s too many law-abiding citizens with guns than there are nut-jobs and cowards with guns.

A guy said in response to my frustration, “The gun control debate is tired”. He’s right, it is. There’s enough control. It still doesn’t stop gun crime. Jail sentences and the death penalty does not stop gun crime. See America’s War on Drugs and Prohibition in America for details.

It’s sad but there’s just no other real viable solution to the problem. All anyone can do is just mourn for today’s dead and continue with our lives.

Maybe we should just face the fact that school killings in America do happen and will happen. It’s nothing new, nothing to be surprised at, not even a headline piece of news, let’s compare it to moose-accidents in Finland. We can’t abolish moose. They’ve been here forever and there are just too many of them.

number 93: I changed your comments slightly to be more analogous:

Maybe we should just face the fact that school killings in America do happen and will happen. It’s nothing new, nothing to be surprised at, not even a headline piece of news, let’s compare it to suicides and alcohol related crimes, accidents and diseases and moose accidents in Finland. We can’t abolish suicides, alcoholics, and moose. They’ve been here forever and there are just too many of them.

The number of guns in Finland is the third biggest in the world right after the USA and Jemen, in that sense Finland is pretty gun happy. I’d say that the correlation between firearm-related deaths and the number of guns is pretty obvious. And I don’t think that children usually shoot each other on purpose but by accident – or they shoot themselves.

Somehow this whole thing reminded me of Petri Gerdt and the Myyrmani bombing. Sure the Myyrmanni one was on a smaller scale but seemed to be as premeditated as the Virginia tech shooting. Plus both perpetrators seemed to be loners who went on to possibly get some kind of revenge on the world. Somehow I just don’t see how ghun control is a solution to these massacres. You can easily do a lot of damage without guns if you really want to. and clearly the people responsible for school shootings do not just “snap” unexpectedly but plan thei actions well in advance and where there’s a will there’s a way.

@mjr, will you ever write a post without the use of “social mobility” in it? Makes me understand the strange want for a gun

Hmm, Punter, I understand it is a sore point. So far libertarianism is totally without answers how to stop the society from stratifying in the absence of a strong, well fairly strong, state that can keep the playing field level as regards access to universally good and affordable education and health care. Without those both privilege and poverty will be unfairly, uncompetetively inherited. That is why the Nordic countries have much higher social mobility, that is, social openness than the USA – which is far closer to the libertarian ideals than than we are. So no wonder that you like, for example, Lenin having no real intellectual answers to human nature would like to use weapons instead of arguments! Hymiö.

Peter:

Guns are a societal factor, unlike disease, moose which are biological factors. You’re so lame.

30 or so american students dead in one massacre. The dumber Bush (who has no role in the incident) goes there personally to “boost” his public record. The newspapers are full of heart-breaking stories, … Not only in the US. All over the world. The blog-keeper himself starts by writing “How terribly, terribly awful.” Yet he knows none of the victims. Not even by far. (?)

Irac today. Two “incidents”, both claim more innocent victims (one 100, one 50). No dumber Bush there (although he IS responsible). No heart-breaking stories in the news. Maybe 10 lines or so, summing up the basic facts in the shortest possible way. The blog-keeper probably didn’t notice the “incidents”, or just doesn’t care, cause he has visited Virginia Tech, but not Iraq. Or couldn’t be bothered by the fate of “sand-niggers”. Or even if he had all the details, why would he care, he doesn’t know these people. Unlike the Virginia tech victims. Only, he doesn’t know them either, but after all, with them he shares: a passport + a MON town they both have visited + a common culture, whose enforcent upon Iraq today resulted in yet another pair of hardly noticed “minor incidents”.

Could global/local hypocrisy/double-standard be spelled out more carefully?

This is is a media story. You can read it from the Korean view. Then he is Korean. You can read it from the European view then he is American, you can read it between two continents and…. Then there is his personal record: one of 100 000 Korean students in the US. Maybe there are some troubles but not this. Who is to blame then?

Dudette in 99:

“Guns are a societal factor, unlike disease, moose which are biological factors. You’re so lame.”

LOL.

I do not agree with mamort’hole always, but:
‘MARMOT’S NOTE: Just in case I haven’t made this perfectly clear—and I believe I have down below, but just in case—the fact that the shooter is Korean is, ultimately, irrelevant. He was a sick kid. Period. You can talk try to read into this tragedy cultural factors all you like (and I’m afraid that’s going to happen both in the United States and here in Korea), but the fact remains that there are 100,000 Korean students in the United States, not to mention about 1 million Korean-Americans, many of whom share the same cultural background as the shooter, and NONE of them have shot up their schools. The overwhelming majority, in fact, are upstanding members of their academic and residential communities. Cho Seung-hui is about as representative of the Korean community as the Columbine shooters were of the white community, that is to say, he’s not. In fact, if there is any group that seems “predisposed” to this sort of violence in the United States, it’s not foreign Asian students, it’s white males.’ http://www.rjkoehler.com

There must be a better plural noun for moose. Meece perhaps?

Nevermind.

Jens-Olaf which you quote from another source in 103:

“In fact, if there is any group that seems “predisposed” to this sort of violence in the United States, it’s not foreign Asian students, it’s white males.”

I don’t necessarily agree.

Persons who are “predisposed” to this sort of violence are psychotic types with worms in their heads. Nationality or race probably doesn’t matter.

Incidentally, I say this despite the fact that the world’s largest spree murderer using handguns was another South Korean national who killed over 50 in South Korea a few years back. Here is the link to this particular psycho who was a policeman who resented being assigned to a duty post in a rural area and took it out on 3 villages which he shot up, and killed 57 innocents. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woo_Bum-Kon

Most South Koreans studying aboard are well-behaved serious students, from all indications. This guy at VT was just a fluke.

Unfortunately, some things will not change.

And this type of event will happen again.

A rational gun control law needs to be put into place in the USA and wherever else it is lacking.

Secondly, the media attention glorifies this type of deviant behavior in the eyes of some sickos, and will set off a round of copycat episodes, either in the US or wherever media attention of the event is extensive.

Lastly, a more careful monitoring must be made of potential dangerous types and their subsequent preventative treatment and confinement must be allowed, despite some obvious infringements on individual rights, if necessary.

“Yep a campus full of students carrying firearms “to protect themselves” doesn’t sound safe to me”

or Switzerland is not for you

As we dis-arm the population more and more, there will be larger and larger events like this.

If it can happen, it will. If someone had a gun, he would have held the crazy guy at bay, just long enough for help to arrive.

Thats what happened in Denver last year. A guy with a gun was having lunch with his wife, when a kid came into the mall shooting (He killed 5 or 6). He pined the kid down with his gun, until the swat team could kill him.

“the death penalty does not stop gun crime.”
– Try using the death penalty before making that statement.
– 14,000 murders in the US last year
– 1,000 executions over the last 20 years.

Execute 14,000 murderers and then lets talk about whether the death penalty works or not.

“A rational gun control law….”

Almost sounds like ‘national’ gun control law. Not something I would suggest. You’ve got all types of people migrating to your country with all sorts of ideas. Eventually, they could gain strength. Taking away your gun rights is the first step in rendering you powerless against them. In my opinion, the last thing you need are a bunch of Commies subverting your country.

Trust me, we know all about that sort of thing here in this little corner of the globe.

Guys, here’s a quote by Hubert Languet (aka Junius Brutus), the author of [i]A Defence of Liberty Against Tyrants[/i]: A tyrant disarms the people. Just look at Hitler, Stalin, Qadhafi, and Castro. They took away not only the guns, but also their personal freedoms and human rights.

A friend of mine (who was born in the Danzig corridor) once said, “You take God out of the schools, the guns and drugs come in.”

Just something to think about.

Best quote:

“Police can’t be everywhere, and as incidents from Columbine to Virginia Tech demonstrate, by the time they show up at a mass shooting, it’s usually too late. On the other hand, one group of people is, by definition, always on the scene: the victims. Only if they’re armed, they may wind up not being victims at all.”

Hmm. Captain Haddock has changed his name here to Monumental Asshole? Just wondering cos you both are gun nuts and quote using bold text.

No it’s me alright, I’m just bored with Captain Haddock. Also I’m not nuts, otherwise I wouldn’t be able to get guns in Finland This name might change to.

The number of guns in Finland is the third biggest in the world right after the USA and Jemen, in that sense Finland is pretty gun happy. I’d say that the correlation between firearm-related deaths and the number of guns is pretty obvious. And I don’t think that children usually shoot each other on purpose but by accident – or they shoot themselves.

Yes, it shows quite clearly there is no correlation at all to be found. Finland is one of the safest countries in the world, like Switzerland. America has had decreasing murder rates for nearly 1½ decades now and are back at 1960′s levels again while gun ownership is at an all time high. Same for accidents across the age-groups, down 60% since teh 1970′s with gun ownership up 40% at roughly the same time!

And this type of event will happen again.

You got that right.

A rational gun control law needs to be put into place in the USA and wherever else it is lacking.

Already in place. Background checks, permits for carrying in public in those states where it is allowed, it’s about as effective as it’s ever going to get now, more won’t help any, didn’t help the european countries either.

Secondly, the media attention glorifies this type of deviant behavior in the eyes of some sickos, and will set off a round of copycat episodes, either in the US or wherever media attention of the event is extensive.

Exactly. This is a copy cat episode we re seeing. Much like every other episode after columbine has been inspired by the media frenzy around it.

Lastly, a more careful monitoring must be made of potential dangerous types and their subsequent preventative treatment and confinement must be allowed, despite some obvious infringements on individual rights, if necessary.

1. No we won’t be giving up any rights, those who think like that ought to move to China or Singapore (or maybe the UK which is morphing into a european Singapore) and enjoy their precious security thats been exchanged liberty. Life is just so much more fun when everything is tightly controlled and regulated, rite? Yeah right, more like the grave is a reward after a life in a country like that.

2. It won’t have any effect either, plenty of gun control countries have had their own mass shootings and what not.

By the way, from what I’m hearing this guy shouldn’t have been able to buy guns. He had a history (been comitted by a judge once to a mental hospital) that should have prevented him from buying guns and he lied on the ATF forms. However due to some loopholes in the NICS, the National Instant Check System, and the state of Virginia not being quick enough in processing the papers to discover he lied, he slipped through the cracks.

So what we could learn from this is that the NICS system in america needs to be more effective, it’s one of the few effective regulations there are in the world. Any more regulation doesn’t really work as can be seen elsewhere in the world.

Well, just as I said, dear pro-gun people here: if things are fine and dandy, quit being so defensive about it. As Jesus Himself loves the Second Amendment and wants Americans, as a free people under law (except when they are suspected by the never erring government of terrorism) to carry concealed hand weapons to protect them from street crime, then ok it is. Liberty doesn’t come free and if you, and the majority of the American people, think that the cost is acceptable, so why not have the concealed hand guns or use assault rifles as hunting weapons or sell mortar throwers in Wal-Marts or what you have. If guns are good for you, they are good for you – and you can stop the melodramatic shouting about it.

Very bad joke:

Why he succeeded to kill over 30 yanks by using only handguns?
Answer: It is as easy as shooting fat king pingvings.

MJR, please quit it with the jesus-bullshit that you’re strewing about and trying to generalise gun owners as jesus happy rednecks. Personally, fuck Jesus. Your arguments make no sense either, pro-gun people can’t have opinions because of the 2nd amendment seems to be what you are saying. Frankly you are the one sounding like a whiner here. Then there’s the fact that the not as free societies of europe have to bear the same costs now again too, which is more a result of the media senastionalism and memes than guns anyway.

Also mortar throwers aren’t small arms and thus aren’t covered by the 2nd amendment. Should such things ever be neccesary, well the iraqi insurgents are doing just fine in achieving their goals without stockpiling IED’s or having had access to anything but small-arms. Besides it’s easier to make explosives from common household items than it is to make guns or maybe even than it is find one illegaly.

M.A: Over 30 000 Americans are killed every year by guns and about 9000 of them are children. Compare that to about 100 chilren killed in Germany or in UK. Relatively about 20 times more children killed in the US! Of course loose gun control is to blame.

With Finnish type of gun control, where you do not get a Glock without specific purpose and not for personal protection, I would bet that those figures would go down and a lot.

About this “there is way too many guns in the US and it is too late”. Well, they had way too many guns also after WWI in Germany, UK and France when the millions of soldiers went home in many cases WITH THEIR GUNS. The same thing happened here in Finland after WWII. It is simply the question of collecting those weapons back and restricting the supply as much as possible. Banning gun stores in downtown areas might also help a lot.

My condolences to the VA Tech people, their families, friends, etc.

It is easy for Europeans and others to point their finger at the American gun laws. This kind of thing happened in Scotland a few years back, and Scotland is not the kind of place you associate with guns and the Wild West. It also happened in Germany. Gun policy in the US is set state by state. Some states have laxer laws than others. I would expect it should be pretty easy to get a gun in Montana or Wyoming, whereas in California, pretty difficult. Finland has higher per-capita gun ownership that the US.

What we need, is a way of identifying people like this guy, and getting them into help.

M.A: Over 30 000 Americans are killed every year by guns and about 9000 of them are children. Compare that to about 100 chilren killed in Germany or in UK. Relatively about 20 times more children killed in the US! Of course loose gun control is to blame.

Oh please, don’t give us this old tired bullshit. Murders and crime happen because of social issues such as poverty, corwding and lack of education, thats what causes the crime in the first place, gun control won’t address the root cause at all.

Also half of that number are suicides, it’s up to everyone if they want to off themselves only.

Thirdly you are wrong, I’ve show it countless times already that gun ownership ratios are entierly unconnected with the murder rate in america, infact we’ve observed a negative trend. This is just a easy boogey man for people with a chip on their shoulders.

Also the banning of guns have not affected homicide statistics in the countrys where they where banned, it’s even more absurd to think it would in america. The only thing that will change anything is a better social safety net and improving education for everyone, especially the poor.

But hey FUCK THE POOR lets use their problems as a reason to fuck up the liberty of the USA, right!

With Finnish type of gun control, where you do not get a Glock without specific purpose and not for personal protection, I would bet that those figures would go down and a lot.

There’s a piece of paper on which you can write anything, I can put down hobby and intend to use it as self-defence anyway. Thats not protection, it’s just buerocracy and it fools the easily fooled apparently.

About this “there is way too many guns in the US and it is too late”. Well, they had way too many guns also after WWI in Germany, UK and France when the millions of soldiers went home in many cases WITH THEIR GUNS. The same thing happened here in Finland after WWII. It is simply the question of collecting those weapons back and restricting the supply as much as possible. Banning gun stores in downtown areas might also help a lot.

Too many guns? Every new legal gun owner is a welcome addition to the ranks. Why don’t we ban free speech and regulate the internet while we are it? I mean the EU is already doing it so why not the US? Fuck all those people who don’t think exactly like me! Seriously crap like this is precisely why the 2nd amendment is a good idea. To stop a free country from slowly sliding into a disgusting nanny-state autocracy.

“- He shot over 50 people. All unarmed and unable to protect themselves, as liberals want it.”

Would it have been better if there would have been more killers. Vigilanties with guns in confined spaces and lot’s of people shooting the maniac and the maniac shooting them. Are you seriously so naive that you think they would have hit him right in the head and nowhere else like let’s say fellow students.
So instead of a one killer we would have a whole punch of them who were just “protectin themselves” at the expense of others.

I guess its the Youtube era the gunman sent a package full of videos,photos, a manifesto, and one audio tape to NBC news a hour before the second shooting that they received yesterday. He seemed to have problems with rich people and the whole “caste” system. No matter what you believe this is a troubled kid issue or a gun control issue. This kid was troubled and seemed to feel that a massacre was the only way for him to be heard. He even refers to the Columbine murders as martyrs. I believe this is a combination of the two issues he was a troubled kid that would have ended up hurting someone no matter what he made up his mind to do that early. The scary thing is that a person in his mind state and labeled mentally ill by a psychiatric facility can so easily purchase two guns and a lot of ammo and the store owner can say that there is nothing he would have done differently because the law was followed. If this doesn’t cause the gun laws to change even in the slightest I would be surprised. Although I still think he would have harmed people one way or another it took box cutters for a group of men to kill nearly 3,000 people on 9/11 so I still believe this tragedy would have happen with or without a gun.

He didn’t follow the law. He lied on the ATF forms and he wasn’t caught in time. He wasn’t allowed to own guns under federal law.

Also, a lot of ammo? I don’t think he bought that much. You can burn 300 rounds in an normal range session. I usually by 9mm and such in loads of 1000 because it saves money. This is not an unusual practice.

I said the store owner said he followed the law whether he did or not is not what I said. My problem is that he was able to get the guns easily and if he lied and got them that makes it worse wouldn’t you say. Of course on a range you can burn 300 round easily thats what your there to do, but for home protection that is a bit excessive. How many time do you think you think he would have to “protect” himself.

I said the store owner said he followed the law whether he did or not is not what I said. My problem is that he was able to get the guns easily and if he lied and got them that makes it worse wouldn’t you say.

Well the point is, lying shouldn’t work, the NICS system should stop just this. But I’ve been hearing that the state of Virgina might not report the information correctly or quickly enough, this is a problem they must address so that NCIS can work as it should.

Of course on a range you can burn 300 round easily thats what your there to do, but for home protection that is a bit excessive. How many time do you think you think he would have to “protect” himself.

Well, any gun you are getting for self-defence you should practice with, atleast a thousand rounds to improve your handling and to see if it is proned to jamming or not.

If there would be no gun control for regular firearms, the bad guys would still be able to get assault rifles and such illegally, and good law abiding citizens couldn’t defend themselves efficiently. And if assault rifles would be legal, the bad guys would get even bigger guns. So logically, banning athrax and anti-tank missiles only leaves innocent people defenceless and causes more violence.

Bad guys never got assault rifles when they where legal, why should they? Big, clumsy and full auto isn’t that usefull anyway. What they want is a small cheap hand gun. So EPIC FAIL for your shitty logic. No wonder you chose to be anonymous.

Isn’t it ironic that in a country so obsessed and paranoid about terrorist attack that it’s prepared to turn half the world into a battleground to prevent them, one fucked up student is able to buy a couple of guns and blow scores of people away. Just like that.

“Oh please, don’t give us this old tired bullshit. Murders and crime happen because of social issues such as poverty, corwding and lack of education, thats what causes the crime in the first place, gun control won’t address the root cause at all. ”

Facts just don’t matter to you, right? Numbers could be ten times worse and still you would stick by your “guns do not kill people”. UK and France have their massive fucked-up ghettos too but homicide rates are nowhere near as bad as in major US cities.

Less guns people have, the better. There isn’t many drive by stabbings in the world, for example. Handguns are especially bad because their only sensible use is “personal protection” and way too many times in domestic indicents it is used against own family member. All that just because somebody like you bought that gun “just for fun” years earlier. You just do not shoot a deer or moose or fox with Glock, do you? How the hell you know where your guns will be in 20 years from now?

Facts just don’t matter to you, right?

Are you being ironic? You have ignored the facts multiple times now.

Numbers could be ten times worse and still you would stick by your “guns do not kill people”. UK and France have their massive fucked-up ghettos too but homicide rates are nowhere near as bad as in major US cities.

UK and France have nowhere the poverty levels of the US, even comparing the two is just a testament to your own retardation and constant denial of the numbers. The bozos in the ghettos all live in subsidised housing and get quite generous welfare nor do they have actual fucking drug wars like america. Christ this is like comparing the first Iraq war to the second world war, talk about lacking scope or any sane understanding of facts. Not mention the US figures have gotten much better despite a lack of your vaunted pseudo-fascist methods.

BUT HEY LETS NOT CARE ABOUT THE FACTS! BAN BAN BAN BAN!

Less guns people have, the better.

LOL

There isn’t many drive by stabbings in the world, for example. Handguns are especially bad because their only sensible use is “personal protection” and way too many times in domestic indicents it is used against own family member. All that just because somebody like you bought that gun “just for fun” years earlier. You just do not shoot a deer or moose or fox with Glock, do you? How the hell you know where your guns will be in 20 years from now?

Ohh dear stuff can be misused, best we ban everything so dumb shits like you don’t have to freak out all the time. And fuck your subjective definitions of what constitutes sensible usage.

Anonymous,

“Would it have been better if there would have been more killers. Vigilanties with guns in confined spaces and lot’s of people shooting the maniac and the maniac shooting them. Are you seriously so naive that you think they would have hit him right in the head and nowhere else like let’s say fellow students.”

– Lets think a second about who is the naive one. Really, everyone who might have been in the line of fire of this maniac was shot already. The maniac was also the ONLY person who was not either running for their lives or crouching behind whatever protection they could find. He was walking around like he owned the place, and having the only guns in the building, he did.

– Now in this case, lets say your ‘vigilante’ does hit an innocent bystander while taking down the maniac as he attempts to mow down the entire French class. the death toll would still have been much lower.

– People who carry handguns regularly do so for protection and understand the responsability of using it. They also understnad the skill required to hit your target, and that shooting a gun is not like shooting is portrayed on TV. You comment is not only idiotic, it is offensive. (more killers)

“People who carry handguns regularly do so for protection and understand the responsability of using it. They also understnad the skill required to hit your target”

Yeah, right. One old quote comes to mind:

“I can shoot the cork of a wine bottle from 20 yards!”, said one man to another.
“Well, that is quite good but can you shoot that same cork when that wine bottle is aiming a pistol to your heart and ready to shoot?”, said the other man.

In a real situation most of us probably would duck and cover, waste all ammo in panic, without much aiming and run like hell to another cover. Even if you are not the one panicking, some other dude with handgun next to you would and shoot pretty much everything but the target.

It only took one guy with his gun, eating lunch with his wife to stop the Kid in the mall in Denver last year. All he did was slow the kid down, giving time for the swat team to arrive, and kill the kid.

Simple case of a gun saving lives, by being there. Not banned from the University as this last event has shown us in graphic detail.

Come on admit it, gun control is a failure, and always will be.

By the way, the left wing thinks this type of guy can be identified and sob, sob, “helped”. Well he was identified, helped and he stilled killed. Another failed left wing agenda item.

Its now wonder the left feel so bad. Every thing they feels is good, is now shown as a failure.

Winter, there are also two cases of school shooting where either a teacher or student ran out to their cars to get their gun to stop a shooter.

“In a real situation most of us probably would duck and cover, waste all ammo in panic, without much aiming and run like hell to another cover. Even if you are not the one panicking, some other dude with handgun next to you would and shoot pretty much everything but the target.”
– Most of ‘us’ do not carry a gun. Nor is that what people are saying.

– Banning guns is as useful a solution as banning alcohol is to solving Finland’s alcohol problems.

Stop Drunk Driving – BAN ALCOHOL!

“- Now in this case, lets say your ‘vigilante’ does hit an innocent bystander while taking down the maniac as he attempts to mow down the entire French class.the death toll would still have been much lower.”

Well that doesn’t bring much warm in the heart of the vigilanties victims.
The vigilanties are quilty of murder and under your sense of justice they should be executed.

“People who carry handguns regularly do so for protection and understand the responsability of using it. They also understnad the skill required to hit your target, and that shooting a gun is not like shooting is portrayed on TV. You comment is not only idiotic, it is offensive.”

Buahahahaaa I’ll by that argument when every gun owner in america goes through excessive training both mentally and physically. It is you who’s the naive one or do you seriously think that gun-ho Joes are somesort of 007′s.

“Banning guns is as useful a solution as banning alcohol is to solving Finland’s alcohol problems”

I am not saying that BAN all the guns but I am for strict gun control. If you wanna full-automatic assault rifle, you should be trained to use one. Somebody should also check from time to time that it is properly stored behind locks and maybe even a “head check” every five years to find out whether you are still mentally healthy or not. That would minimize problems.

Any kind of alcoholic or mental problems and those guns should be taken away. That is completely different than just buying a gun from local shop with minimal background check and without any kind of training.

“Buahahahaaa I’ll by that argument when every gun owner in america goes through excessive training both mentally and physically. It is you who’s the naive one or do you seriously think that gun-ho Joes are somesort of 007’s.”
– What do you think people do with these things when they buy them?
– Some will throw them in a safe or hide them away at home and never touch them. Thos who make the effort to get a concealed carry permit (that is different from getting permission to buy the gun) often get the carry permit because they are regularly going to the range to shoot it.
– Everyone knows how competitive Americans are. Shooting poorly is nothing to brag about. They all want to show off the targets with the bullseyes shot out.
– Not sure where the 007 comments fits in. First, he’s a British Agent. Second, these are the sort of situations you keep your secret agents away from.

“They all want to show off the targets with the bullseyes shot out.”

Naw, they show off the deer, with 10 points, laying in the back of his truck. I have yet to see anyone show me a target all shot up.

And anyone thinking the government comming by every 5 years or so to check, is any way or form a good idea, will find a shotgun stuck in his face. So it will not happen.

The motto here is “When I die, you can peel my fingers of my gun”.

I stick to targets and clay pigeons. Although when/if I move back to Finland, I plan to go out hunting with the ‘cannons’ I plan on bringing with me.

“The motto here is “When I die, you can peel my fingers of my gun”.” – winturd

Hey, Bozo, guns don’t have fingers. Even I know that.

118: Mr Asshole, I’m sorry it just amuses me that the sorry fundamentalist Jesus brigade should be so much allied with the pro-gun position – whatever happened to turning the other cheek? Was it a misreading from loading the other attack rifle? Anyways, as said, you are fine and satisfied about all this firepower having easy availability for your decent God fearing folk, so why not quit this hysterical overreaction in defending this paradisical state of affairs. Things seem to fine and dandy on the gun front in the good old US of A, so be happy!

“guns don’t have fingers. Even I know that.”

Classic, open mouth insert foot, statement.

#139

The 007 comment was to show the point that few of us are calm nerved and able to kill in complete chaos and not hurting anybody else, no matter how many clay ducks you have shot.

bullet in the body of the vigilanties victims doesn’t bring much warmth in their hearts, no matter how many others the vigilantie may have saved.

If USAs campuses are so dangerous even though they are not, then I don’t have any problem with professional armed guards who have actual training of using a firearm not just experince in shooting clay ducks, to keep the place and students safe.

M.A. “BUT HEY LETS NOT CARE ABOUT THE FACTS!”

Here are some facts that demonstrate the effect of removing guns from the community.

In 1996 in Port Arthur Tasmaina, Martin Bryan shot dead 35 people. He’s now sitting in prison.
As a result of this mass murder the Australian Government introduced much tighter gun laws AND spent half a billion dollars buying back over 700,000 guns from the public. The weapons were destroyed.

In the 10 years before the Port Arthur massacre 112 people had been killed by shooting in 11 mass murders (4 deaths or more).
In the 10 years after the gun buy back ZERO people have been killed by shooting in mass murders.
…

The facts demonstrate that more guns = more deaths and less guns = less deaths.

…
Bringing up other issues such as poverty, slums, drugs etc is just an attempt to smokescreen.

“bullet in the body of the vigilanties victims doesn’t bring much warmth in their hearts,”
– Show me the bodies of the ‘vigilantes’ victims.
– Even police accidentally shoot others.

As for children being shot. A child in the US is 100 times more likely to drown in a pool than be shot.

Anything can be a murder weapon. My favorite Finnish headline is “Engineer Kills Wife with Frying Pan.” And in Finland, your most likely to be killed by a family member or friend. Not so in the US. What does that say about Finland?

mjr #98 “So far libertarianism is totally without answers how to stop the society from stratifying in the absence of a strong, well fairly strong, state that can keep the playing field level as regards access to universally good and affordable education and health care. Without those both privilege and poverty will be unfairly, uncompetetively inherited.”

Yep, just like the poor 26000 students at VT that are missing that affordable education you mean? Seems highly unfair to me……….

“Anything can be a murder weapon. My favorite Finnish headline is “Engineer Kills Wife with Frying Pan.” And in Finland, your most likely to be killed by a family member or friend. Not so in the US. What does that say about Finland?”

We keep our enemies close.

As a result of this mass murder the Australian Government introduced much tighter gun laws AND spent half a billion dollars buying back over 700,000 guns from the public. The weapons were destroyed.

Not to mention there are probably one million weapons that where buried over the country that where not turned in to the government, many of these weapons have now also been sold to gangs and such, thanks australian government. Retarded decisions as usual from governments.

In the 10 years before the Port Arthur massacre 112 people had been killed by shooting in 11 mass murders (4 deaths or more). In the 10 years after the gun buy back ZERO people have been killed by shooting in mass murders.

And in the entire 20th century prior to the 10 years you choose to pick from, no people where killed in mass shootings as well. The first mass shooting was between outlaw motorcycle gangs shooting each other as well. People in Australia can and do still buy guns like the ones used by Cho to kill the people at VT. Over 300,000 guns where purchased in 2006 alone.

Why are there no more deaths when so many guns are still around? There are assloads of guns in australia easily capable of matching port arthur. Most of the guns taken where hunters rifles anyway and pump action shotguns and whatnot. An australian can still go and buy a GLOCK or walther P22 like Cho used.

And I guess 2002 Monash University shooting doesn’t count either, where an international student shot two others. Nor the fact that gun violence has been declining steadily since 1980 in australia, 16 years going before these gun laws where introduced that still allow many weapons more than capable of mass murders.

The Sporting Shooters Association of Australia also argues from teh statistics that there has been no evidence that the gun controls in 1996 affected the pre-existign trend, this research has been backed up by the New South Wales Berau of Crime Statistics and Research.

In 2006 the lack of any measurable statistical evidence was confirmed in a peer reviewed article in the British Journal of Criminology as well.

The facts demonstrate that more guns = more deaths and less guns = less deaths.

Invalidated by statistics in both Australia and the United States.

Bringing up other issues such as poverty, slums, drugs etc is just an attempt to smokescreen.

Yes, it might illustrate the real problems in society and disrupt the pro-control peoples desire for a police state.

I’m sorry, ignore the 300,000 figure for now, I think thats incorrect.

I need to verify that as it was told to me by an australian mate who works in a gun store, he’s claiming the opinion is swinging to more pro-gun in recent years as well.

I was gonna say. Not on your life mate. As for buying a 9mm Glock over the counter in Australia, don’t know what state you’re from (or visited) but check again. To write in that way suggests the process and availability of these weapons is similar to that in The US. This is simply wrong. (BTW, the counter of your local pub doesn’t count)

What does that say about Finland?

That the overall homicide rate in the USA compared to Finland is much higher?

And, no, it’s not a nigger issue, Kristian, but something that has plagued the USA for centuries. While in Europe – or Canada – modernization has been bringing the number of murders down for decades, or centuries actually, in the USA the trend has been often the opposite. Somewhat in the same way as in Finland, although here we are talking more often about manslaughters rather than murders. One common nominator between the two countries is the number of guns but, then again, homicides in Finland are rarely committed with a gun.

Finns kill each other over two times more often than other west Europeans (but less than in east Europe, not to mention the USA). Fortunately the trend seems to be going downwards, though.

My uneducated guess is that the common nominator is that acquiring a decent life relative to the cultural expectations is too tough for too many both in Finland and the USA.

By the way, domestic violence in Finland has been going down dramatically, contrary to what you’d expect by reading news.

I never meant to imply you can buy it over the counter, only that you can buy a GLOCK or any such pistols, the laws don’t prevent you from buying such weapons, there’s alot of paperwork involved in getting one and you have to be an active sportshooter and there are 10 round capacity limits and such things, from what I remember being told by austrialian mates. But getting them is entierly possible.

Yeah finns are very violent, but it’s because we are an extremely introverted binge drinking people. Atleast we stab each other or use cut glass instead.

Well I suggest you research the facts yourself instead of listening to some Australian amtes and believing everything you’re told. You might be shocked

Was anything what I said wrong? No it wasn’t. The guy works in a gunstore and knows the gun laws and how you get firearms. You can infact get firearms up to .45 calibre if you are a participant in approved competitions such as Single Action Shooting and Metallic Silhouette. Thus if you compete in any of these, a 9mm GLOCK is an available choice.

For general target shooting you can get .38 calibre or less.

Yeah okay I also got in contact with him and 20,000 firearms where sold in his state in 2006, he thinks maybe 100,000 nationally. But thats just a guesstimate and not a solid figure, but 20,000 for his state anyway.

we are an extremely introverted binge drinking people

You probably are but I’m not. Nevertheless, there might be some truth to what you say: too many people not adapted to the “civilized way of life”.

To avoid redundancy, I’ll not respond to the gun issue. I attended the University of Virginia and my husband is from that lovely state, so we know a number of people associated with Virginia Tech. I can’t remember if anything else big like this has happened in the US since we moved to Estonia last fall, but I do know this is the first time I felt far-removed from the chaos that is living in the US. Sorrow and relief make odd bedfellows.

And commenting on how Finland has “no big schools are located in tiny towns”, Estonia’s got Tartu University. The easiest way to describe it is as a college town.

You probably are but I’m not.

I’m not, so you can stuff that crap where the sun don’t shine.

Nevertheless, there might be some truth to what you say: too many people not adapted to the “civilized way of life”

Like you. Oh dear I’m sorry I lowered myself to your level of argumentation.

I’m not

Then you should not use phrases like “we Finns”, idiot.

Then you should not use phrases like “we Finns”, idiot.

I am a finn so I very well fucking should when describing my own country and countrymen. Learn some grammar you utter fucking retard.

So it’s the grammar that makes you an introverted binge drinker. Learn some thinking, asshole

Hello?!?! According to your poor grasp of language it would not be possible for a finnish person who has never had a drink in his life to say that “we finns drink alot”. Absurdity.

I’m not an introvert but yeah you are driving me to binge drinking!

Bad guys never got assault rifles when they where legal, why should they? Big, clumsy and full auto isn’t that usefull anyway. What they want is a small cheap hand gun. So EPIC FAIL for your shitty logic. No wonder you chose to be anonymous.

Chech this out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout

The robbers used heavy body armor and assault rifles with huge drum magazines. The police shot them multiple times with their regular pistols, but they just kept going and spraying thousands of rounds. So I was right after all.

If you and I are not introverted binge drinkers then you should say: “we Finns, except for myself and one other fellow, are introverted binge drinkers. And it’s not “alot” but “a lot”, oh you master of language grasping.

Seems like you learnt your filth in Australia though so first, tone down the profanity. Secondly, there is a bit of a difference between 300000 as earlier stated and the 20000 you now quote. As for shooting club membership and gun ownership, check things a little further and see how you qualify, how long you have to wait, ballistic testing guns and other evaluations of applicants as well as storage laws etc and then tell me that gun ownership post Port Arthur is still simple and wide spread. As for your “friend’s” input, he, as one working in the gun indutry in Australia may not, I suggest, be the best and most neutral source for information. Think about it????

They made a movie about the incident:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i34fbTMEius

Way upthread I got confused by the difference between US govt statistics (quoted by Phil) and Optula statistics regarding children and use of firearms in homicides in Finland. My bad, of course the US govt figure was of children who were victims, the Optula figure was of children who were killers. So that mad cow in Sibbo who drugged and shot her whole family added two to one figure and none to the other. Children are easy enough to kill, if you are a grown-up. You don’t need a gun.
Mass shootings have their own nasty logic, though. The Helsinki Metro killer used an axe. If he’d have had a gun, would he have stopped at just one victim? Not that you couldn’t hack away with an axe if you had the inclination, but the concept of a mass axing just isn’t there yet. Lots of crimes one could be the first to commit – I just had several nasty ideas, but thought better about sharing them. Good thing most potential mass murderers and terrorists aren’t very imaginative.

So, I suppose the position of the pro-gun people here is “the more guns the better” – and those arguing for more control seem to think the opposite. I think it is fairly easy to establish a statistical connection between the availability and number of guns and the level of violence, but the, often, Jesus and/or NRA inspired gun folk of the USA think that guns are nevertheless good for liberty, so there you go. You can’t then decide the debate with statistics – one can of course just rely on one’s common sense and reason, and maybe they would have something to say about the glorious right and obligation to carry concealed hand weapons or the benefit of having some nice assault rifles to protect your home and to go for the occasional hunt – hmm, sounds really like a tough one! Have to think about that one…

Punter is fellow who don’t understand how a two-dimensional graph with a time axis works, probably due to Italian or German education. Yeah sure, we should take him seriously!

If you and I are not introverted binge drinkers then you should say: “we Finns, except for myself and one other fellow, are introverted binge drinkers.

Where the fuck did you learn langauge? Thats not true at all. You can describe a group like that without neccesarily including yourself.

And it’s not “alot” but “a lot”, oh you master of language grasping.

Oh dear I lost a space!

tsuhna, mushrooms up early this year are they?

“probably due to Italian or German education.” Yeah right, read some posts and you might follow and understand more. BLANK

Seems like you learnt your filth in Australia though so first, tone down the profanity.

Hmm, no.

Secondly, there is a bit of a difference between 300000 as earlier stated and the 20000 you now quote.

For his state alone, not the whole country. He estimated 100,000 but

As for shooting club membership and gun ownership, check things a little further and see how you qualify, how long you have to wait, ballistic testing guns and other evaluations of applicants as well as storage laws etc and then tell me that gun ownership post Port Arthur is still simple and wide spread.

I’ve not said it’s simple, but it is still widespread and guns you can kill with as efficiently are still around.

As for your “friend’s” input, he, as one working in the gun indutry in Australia may not, I suggest, be the best and most neutral source for information. Think about it????

You may but it wouldn’t be true so meh. There’s nothing biased about what he said, numbers he gave for sales in his state are not anything but numbers, the directions for getting firearms where also correct. The only thing you are doing is strawmanning me by claiming I said it was simple, first you even claimed I’ve said it was as simple as in the USA, which I never said.

Also the amount of illegal weapons are increasing every year in australia, so much for gun control.

The robbers used heavy body armor and assault rifles with huge drum magazines. The police shot them multiple times with their regular pistols, but they just kept going and spraying thousands of rounds. So I was right after all.

Yes I’ll have to give you that, I shouldn’t have said never, just practically never, only two recorded homicides since 1934 have been done with machine guns. Hardly an epidemic in a country like america.

Sorry, asshole, but I won’t consider every generalization that happens to pop up in your small brain true. And you didn’t “lose a space”, instead you missed one – or so you claim.

Sorry, asshole, but I won’t consider every generalization that happens to pop up in your small brain true. And you didn’t “lose a space”, instead you missed one – or so you claim.

Ahh little retard, the truth of the generalisation is not relevant to wheter the grammar is correct or not. Ofcourse I wouldn’t expect you to understand this.

Also being a spelling nazi, last refuge of the idiot.

Punter, Finland’s GDP will surpass that of the USA in a couple of decades if the long-term trend continues. Your stupid answer to this fact a while back showed that you don’t understand a two-dimensional graph with a time axis.

Not German or Italian education? Well, something well below the Finnish standards anyway.

Now I got bored …

By the way, didn’t your spelling nazi powers catch my “wheter” it should be “whether”

Also being a spelling nazi, last refuge of the idiot.

It’s “Nazi” with a capital N.

Aw maw gawd! I nevar coulda thunkit! (watches your head explode)

2.(often lowercase) a person elsewhere who holds similar views.”
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/nazi

Now I just wonder weather I’m extremely bored or just bored. But hey, now I remember that I downloaded the latest episode of “Lost” yesterday.

Punter, Finland’s GDP will surpass that of the USA in a couple of decades if the long-term trend continues. Your stupid answer to this fact a while back showed that you don’t understand a two-dimensional graph with a time axis.

And if my mother had balls she would be my father???? Your arguements of if and may and such hold no relevance at all so thaks for the insult.
Now, as to the education part, as I have spent 14 years in the “education and training” field of this fine country, you’d better hope for sake of your arguement that my education is up to a standard acceptable here otherwise where does it leave your “we have the best education in the world arguement?” You people with your short sight and simple minds scare me more than any gun.

#175 “For his state alone, not the whole country. He estimated 100,000 but”
So why would any other statements made by him (or you) be considered more accurate than this?

“Also the amount of illegal weapons are increasing every year in australia, so much for gun control.”

And this comes from your friend again I suppose? Apart from a lengthy “gangland war” that broke out in Melbourne for 18 months in 2003-04, show where gun crime and the amount of illegal weapons habe increased every year in Australia since the Howard Governments push to tighten firearms following the 1996 Port Arthur shootings. By the way, if the guns are illegal, there are no records to trace and number with making any suggestion of number nothing more than another “guesstimate” by your friend.

“- Show me the bodies of the ‘vigilantes’ victims.”

Fine if you want to be dense then be one. I am not going to explain my point any further.

So why would any other statements made by him (or you) be considered more accurate than this?

Barring something very unlikely they are in the ball park, we could have him phone upp all the other departments and collate the data though. But hey you are welcome to think whatever you want of my sources, I can’t expect trust from the internet after all.

And this comes from your friend again I suppose?

Nope, this comes from Trends and Issues in Crime and Criminal Justice No. 230: Firearms theft in Australia. Australian Institute of Criminology. ISBN 0-642-24265-8; ISSN 0817-8542.

Apart from a lengthy “gangland war” that broke out in Melbourne for 18 months in 2003-04, show where gun crime and the amount of illegal weapons habe increased every year in Australia since the Howard Governments push to tighten firearms following the 1996 Port Arthur shootings. By the way, if the guns are illegal, there are no records to trace and number with making any suggestion of number nothing more than another “guesstimate” by your friend.

So, since you where wrong about my source, this whole bit here was an utter waste of time. LOL

WTF has firearm theft got to do with what we describe as gun crime? Space cadets…… I know where the name comes from now and my only pleasure from this is learning you are not Australian afterall.

The Finnish homicide rate is close to 2.5 times bigger than in other west-European countries. So, can’t we feel safe here? No we can’t if we live in the northern or eastern parts of the country, are unemployed and spend our time drinking with the guys.

If guns don’t kill, why bother about Iraq or North Korea nukes?

Iraq or North Koria nukes? You all need to start digging. Iran has over 1,000 centrifuges turning, and turning and turning.

Funny that Iraq didn’t use it’s WMD aginst you and Israel.

WAYNESBURG, Ky. –
Miss America 1944 has a talent that likely has never appeared on a beauty pageant stage: She fired a handgun to shoot out a vehicle’s tires and stop an intruder.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070421/ap_on_re_us/brave_beauty_queen

“Funny that Iraq didn’t use it’s WMD aginst you and Israel.”

Funny that a pole take by the Britsh shows a majority of the EU would agree to attack Iran right now.

Bunch of Blood thirsty folks over there in the EU.

To bad you can’t do what the majority want. No power to project at all.

” And in Finland, your most likely to be killed by a family member or friend. Not so in the US”

Wrong. Women in the US are far more likely to be beaten or killed by a (usually male) family member or friend. Murders also tend to be race-specific, too.

“Funny that a pole take by the Britsh shows a majority of the EU would agree to attack Iran right now.

Bunch of Blood thirsty folks over there in the EU.

To bad you can’t do what the majority want. No power to project at all.”

Funny that your debating skills are so poor that you have to divert the conversation with something completely out of subject.

So you agree with me that Iraq didn’t have any WMDs, surely if they had any they would have used them.

Ps. Decades old mustard gas is not a WMD. Unless Saddams plans included to irritate the eyes of G.I Joes, oh the horror.

Kristian gave us this link:
“WAYNESBURG, Ky. -
Miss America 1944 has a talent that likely has never appeared on a beauty pageant stage: She fired a handgun to shoot out a vehicle’s tires and stop an intruder.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070421/ap_on_re_us/brave_beauty_queen”

She was shooting off her gun to protect some scrap metal: old unused farm machinery from her heyday in the 1940′s.

Not to protect her life or anything of real value.

There are too many handguns in the wrong hands or in hands where accidents may happen.

I wonder how many 7 year old young American girls – who were potential Miss America’s at least in their parent’s eyes – were killed by handguns recklessly left around the house.

Anyone notice how mass killings are all in “Gun free zones”?

And not one, at a “Gun Show”?

Any explanations? Or does gun control not work?

Yep, I tend to think The US is one big gun show. Gun control, if done properly can work. Is it perfect? No. Is it better than what you have over there now? Yep….

“Funny that a pole take by the Britsh shows a majority of the EU would agree to attack Iran right now.”

I have seen no pole, rod, staff, or stick wielded by the British that would indicate any such thing.

However, a web search did reveal the results of an opinion survey nearly three weeks ago that revealed that a narrow majority of Europeans would agree to attacks on Iran as a LAST RESORT to stop it acquiring a nuclear bomb, but not on an attack right now.

#5 “I’m not pro-gun, but you can’t “abolish guns” in the U.S., there’s just too many of them.”

As appalling as the whole US gun culture is (the fervor of the NRA types at promoting their cause seems to take on a tone of religious and sexual frenzy at times), and as necessary as some amount of gun control would be, I agree that tougher laws would not be a panacea.

The root of the problem is not easy availability of firearms, but rather a culture that sees blowing things up and blowing people away (or in less severe circumstances, “kicking ass”) as the best solution to a wide variety of problems, both domestic and global.

Go to any American redneck bar and listen to the conversations about an hour or so into the evening’s drinking, and the bellicose commentary will abound: “They oughtta just go and…” the sentence usually concludes in some sadistic masturbation fantasy that can range from using nuclear weapons to turn the sand of a Muslim country into glass, to using conventional weaponry to respond to some minor insult.

It is the prevalence of those kinds of attitudes, rather than the ease of aquiring firearms that spawns the violence.

winter, ignoring isn’t quite the rebutal I was looking for.

“Gun control, if done properly can work. ”

ask Australia. now the crooks all have the guns, and crime by gun is way up.

“I have seen no pole, rod, staff, or stick wielded by the British that would indicate any such thing.”

I posted the link here like 1 week ago.

Bunch of blood thirsty thugs you all are.

“Iraq didn’t have any WMDs”

whats the count, like over 600 last time i looked. Now they have proof of where the remaining stuff went. Want to guess where?

#260 Are you perhaps referring to something that I read about in Salon today? Glenn Greenwald writes about a theory advanced by British neocon, Melanie Phillips which is seriously implausible, but if true, it hardly gives the Dubya administration high marks for competence. She stipulates that:

“(a) WMDs really were found in Iraq after the invasion, (b) they were located in vast underground bunkers (c) which contained “nuclear, chemical and biological materials”, but (d) the U.S., through negligence, failed to secure those sites and, as a result, (e) the WMDs were stolen by The Terrorists and/or Syrian agents, who now have them and are actively plotting (along with China, Russia and North Korea) to use them against the West, but — (f) because the Bush administration is so embarrassed by their failure to prevent the theft of all these dastardly weapons, and because Democrats are embarrassed by this discovery because it proves that Saddam really did have WMDs all along, they have all jointly created a vast conspiracy where they conceal the discovery of WMDs in order to cover up for their negligence.”

Kimmo W. in 202 says:

“Go to any American redneck bar and listen to the conversations about an hour or so into the evening’s drinking, and the bellicose commentary will abound: “They oughtta just go and…” ”

LOL, and what crap by our esteemed resident sociologist, Kimmo. Where did you get your PHD?

Those types of bars are worldwide, and I have seen them throughout Europe, UK,the US, and yes, even in Finland.

Kimmo, you can go into any Finnish juntti bar, and you get similar behaviour, stupid discussions and mindset.

A couple of Finnish friends and myself had to fight our way out of a bar in Joensuu because they didn’t like us “foreigners”. My Finnish colleagues were Joensuu native born guys who did the unpardonable sin of moving to and living in Helsinki. They were less angry at me, a real foreigner than my friends.

It was rather nasty. Incidentally, one of these friends now lives in Texas, and the another in Ontario.

I never experienced violence like that in the States when I lived there, but several times in Finland, I have.

“whats the count, like over 600 last time i looked. Now they have proof of where the remaining stuff went. Want to guess where?”

Sources would be nice and if they did have them why didn’t they use them, they had the time to use them and if they had any they would have used them. Surprisingly Tel Aviv didn’t go boom neither did we see any other pretty fireworks not to mention a pox outbreak among G.I Joes.

And to quote myself

“Ps. Decades old mustard gas is not a WMD. Unless Saddams plans included to irritate the eyes of G.I Joes, oh the horror.”

#208 I never suggested that boorish behavior in bars is an exclusively American phenomenon – not by a long shot. It is my experience that in Finland, the atmosphere especially among men who have been drinking can turn quite menacing quite easily.

My point goes beyond drunken rants to broader aspects of the American world view: a tendency to resort to final solutions accompanied by explosions, gunfire, or general mayhem (usually on the fantasy level, but sometimes in the real world) as a way to relieve both national and personal frustrations.

Fry and Laurie – one reason why I like the BBC – put it rather well:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7PUfsDc8x0

WTF has firearm theft got to do with what we describe as gun crime?

Christ where you born without a brain? I said:
Also the amount of illegal weapons are increasing every year in australia, so much for gun control.

How is firearm theft and the ever increasing number of illegal guns in Australia not relevant? Are you just to busy focusing on how to use the keyboard to think of anything else or what?

Space cadets…… I know where the name comes from now and my only pleasure from this is learning you are not Australian afterall.

Well duh I’m finnish and have said so a billion times or so in this conversation. Christ are all gun control people this stupid and illogical?

Kimmo in 210,

“My point goes beyond drunken rants to broader aspects of the American world view: a tendency to resort to final solutions accompanied by explosions, gunfire, or general mayhem (usually on the fantasy level, but sometimes in the real world) as a way to relieve both national and personal frustrations”

Don’t you think your statement above fits very nicely the Finnish commentator just below you in 211?

Your wide-sweeping generalisations of Americans could be easily offset by equally wide-sweeping generalisatons of Finns as being alcoholic, suicidal, and socially-inhibited and immature with a latent inferiority complex, with a smug view of the world of not wishing to really get involved, just sermonize from the mount a bunch of platitudes to show you are superior to everyone else although keeping your borders closed to any inconvenient problems happening in the rest of the world.

I know that is not true of most Finns and your remark about Americans is equally untrue.

“Your wide-sweeping generalisations of Americans could be easily offset by equally wide-sweeping generalisatons of Finns as being alcoholic, suicidal, and socially-inhibited and immature with a latent inferiority complex, with a smug view of the world of not wishing to really get involved, just sermonize from the mount a bunch of platitudes to show you are superior to everyone else although keeping your borders closed to any inconvenient problems happening in the rest of the world.

I know that is not true of most Finns and your remark about Americans is equally untrue.”

Nice display of that american cultural imperialism. Don’t try to tell me you don’t actually think like that time to time.

“Don’t you think your statement above fits very nicely the Finnish commentator just below you in 211? … I know that is not true of most Finns and your remark about Americans is equally untrue.”

Certainly. No country has a monopoly on boorishness or virtue. I can nevertheless say from personal experience that the attitudes that I alluded to are quite common in the United States.

Usually these high-adrenaline expressions of frustration in sentences that begin with words like “They ought to just…”, “Boy, I’d like to…”, basically amount to a psychological release of pent-up frustration, but sometimes, when the pressure mounts, and the person feeling frustrated and victimised happens to have access to assault rifles and other instruments of death, that the expression of frustration takes tragically concrete forms.

“Your wide-sweeping generalisations of Americans could be easily offset by equally wide-sweeping generalisatons of Finns as being alcoholic, suicidal, and socially-inhibited and immature with a latent inferiority complex…”

This isn’t a pissing contest! Those would indeed be unfair sweeping generalisations if someone were to say that they typify all Finns, But I would be the first to amit that those characteristics are very much present within the Finnish nation.

By the way, the British comedian Ben Elton once had a pretty good comment on the assault rifle controversy. He noted that some had suggested that instead of banning those weapons completely, ownership could be restricted to those who can show that they are mature enough to be trusted with such dangerous firearms. Elton saw this as a good idea, and said that the test could actually be quite simple. All you need is one question:

“Do you wish to own a machine gun?”

And if the answer is “yes”, then that person is obviously not suitable to have one.

Don’t you think your statement above fits very nicely the Finnish commentator just below you in 211?

I’m under no obligation to treat retards nicely. Can’t debate, well fuck you then.

Monumental Asshole

“How is firearm theft and the ever increasing number of illegal guns in Australia not relevant?”
“Also the amount of illegal weapons are increasing every year in australia, so much for gun control.”

So where is the answer to my question? All you have done is throw out more BS based on nothing other than a “guesstimate” from some unknown friend in Australia. The fact of life in Australia in regards to guns and gun crime is far different to that you describe. The “Thug life” culture of American youth, the glory of the gun etc etc etc are far removed from the typical Australian. The punishment faced and the power of the police and courts to prosecute gun crime is such, following 1996, that the measures taken by Howard seem to have worked.
Now is it a perfect system that has removed all gun crime? NO. Will it? No. However faced with the option of further Port Arthurs (or Hoddle St/ Queens St) or the gun control we have, it’s not a hard choice as to which is better. Most Australians perhaps with the exception of your gunshop loving “friend” certainly agree and to argue otherwise is pointless and wrong.

whats the count, like over 600 last time i looked.

say. lets set the bar. How many WMDs do we have to find?

Can we set a number so you can’t keep changing it.

Then when the numbers reach say 700, you give in. Or is it 800? Higher?

Some scrapped bombshells that have residues of WMD material don’t do. Those things are washed ashore every now and then even by the baltic sea.

Let’s set the bar according to what Colin Powell presented at the UN.

- Unmanned aerial vehicles equipped to spread anthrax.
- Continued nuclear program i.e. those sentrifuges with the famous aluminium tubes.
- Continued missile program
- Saddam ties with Al-Qaida,

where are they?

Rest of the list:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/02/20030205-1.html

“I’m under no obligation to treat retards nicely.” – Asshole

Hey Asshole. I thought you’d run out of Sisu and went to hide in your bottle. Too bad. Go back to your daycare center. They are looking for you.

I, for one, cannot tolerate your consistent shitty tone all the time. No matter what it is “fuck you this, fuck you that.”

No one other than you thinks you are funny.

However, if you’d care to post a photo of yourself, you might get a few laughs, retard.

“- Unmanned aerial vehicles equipped to spread anthrax.
- Continued nuclear program i.e. those sentrifuges with the famous aluminium tubes.
- Continued missile program
- Saddam ties with Al-Qaida,

where are they?” – Antti rn

Well, according to Rumsfeld:

“We know where (the WMDs) are. They’re in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat.”

More gems:

“I would not say that the future is necessarily less predictable than the past. I think the past was not predictable when it started.”

“We do know of certain knowledge that he [Osama Bin Laden] is either in Afghanistan, or in some other country, or dead.”

“Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war.”

“Freedom’s untidy, and free people are free to make mistakes and commit crimes and do bad things.” –on looting in Iraq after the U.S. invasion, adding “stuff happens”

“As you know, you go to war with the army you have, not the army you might want or wish to have at a later time.”

“[Osama Bin Laden is] either alive and well or alive and not too well or not alive.”

“I am not going to give you a number for it because it’s not my business to do intelligent work.” -asked to estimate the number of Iraqi insurgents while testifying before Congress

“I believe what I said yesterday.don’t know what I said, but I know what I think, and, well, I assume it’s what I said.”

“Needless to say, the President is correct. Whatever it was he said.”

“Reports that say that something hasn’t happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns — the ones we don’t know we don’t know.”

“If I said yes, that would then suggest that that might be the only place where it might be done which would not be accurate, necessarily accurate. It might also not be inaccurate, but I’m disinclined to mislead anyone.”

“There’s another way to phrase that and that is that the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. It is basically saying the same thing in a different way. Simply because you do not have evidence that something does exist does not mean that you have evidence that it doesn’t exist.” -on Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction

“It is unknowable how long that conflict [the war in Iraq] will last. It could last six days, six weeks. I doubt six months.” -in Feb. 2003

“Well, um, you know, something’s neither good nor bad but thinking makes it so, I suppose, as Shakespeare said.”

“Secretary Powell and I agree on every single issue that has ever been before this administration except for those instances where Colin’s still learning.”

“Learn to say ‘I don’t know.’ If used when appropriate, it will be often.”

“I don’t know what the facts are but somebody’s certainly going to sit down with him and find out what he knows that they may not know, and make sure he knows what they know that he may not know.”

“I’m not into this detail stuff. I’m more concepty.”

“I don’t do quagmires.”

“I don’t do diplomacy.”

“I don’t do foreign policy.”

“I don’t do predictions.”

“I don’t do numbers.”

“I don’t do book reviews.”

He will certainly be missed.

Heh, there is also some unintended humour in that White House press release on Powell presentation at the UN. The title says: Iraq – Denial and Deception

I understand why people want guns banned having missused one once and almost killing my own sister at 5 yrs. old. They can be very destructive when used by the insane or unknowledgable. When used by the responsible they are also an reinforcer of security. The debate to control guns will probably never be solved, but I do realize one very important fact of gun ownership that CANNOT be denied. If guns ARE ever banned then the only ones who WILL have them are the ones that won’t hesitate to use them on us…..the criminal. To test this theory why don’t you give up your gun, then have someone crazy break into your house and murder and rape your children and wife, and see if you don’t ask for a gun then. If you don’t then fine ban them. You can always get more wives and kids right?