Should ympäristö be Finland’s first priority?
@ 1:43 pm Some airlines, including SAS’ Blue1, are letting customers voluntarily pay an emissions surcharge. I’m in favor of cutting emissions Europe-wide—even worldwide—but is it really necessary for Finland to be on the front-line of bearing extra expenses for pollution?
Considering that geographic isolation already adds considerable costs to even the shortest excursion off the Finnish ’subcontinent’—and the fact that Finland is one of the poorest lands in the western European spectrum—do such policies make sense for Finland to implement in advance, even if only done so voluntarily?
Sure, corporations are the first to pay these voluntary fees. Seems ok at first thought. But in essence, corporations could instead pay that money to their Finnish workers.
Finnair is still sitting on the bench with this one. And I hope it stays there. Although I support pollution cutting measures in general, they should first be implemented by countries which can most easily afford them. Finland should be on the tail-end of the process—or at best, slightly ahead of eastern European countries.
Well, it was deemed on this blog some time ago that Finland is one of the world’s heaviest polluters or something along those lines… So yes, it really is necessary.
Btw, what’s with finnish words in the topic? Using “ympäristö” instead of “environment” has no added value and may confuse those who do not speak finnish. To a finnish speaker it sounds just weird.
Comment by mh — Tue, Mar 27th, 2007 @ 1:50 pm
Phil, why do you value money more than the youe enviroment? is it some american thing I can’t understand? Why can’t a “poor” country be a example to “rich” countries. Hey, if we can afford to lower our lifestyle for the enviroment, why shouldn’t you? Isn’t that a good message to the “rich” world?
Comment by Player — Tue, Mar 27th, 2007 @ 1:53 pm
I have to agree on the point why should we be the first ones doing so. Its the same reason we went in to Ottawa treaty even though it significantly lowered our defense, its because to not do so would otherwise harm our reputation, thats what politicians would say. Its just plain stupid that Finland has to be the model student at all times in every issue. For once we should be little selfish and do whats right for the country.
Comment by saku — Tue, Mar 27th, 2007 @ 2:00 pm
Phil, looking at the state of earth today, EVERYONE should play their part. Too bad you seem to value money more than the planets future? I can understand that once your so poor you can’t afford food/housing you don’t care about the pollution. As long as you have money to keep yourself healthy, you should use your money for good instead of a new SUV/entertainment system/whatever. Or is that more important? You tell me. Should I stop caring about the planet because and rather buy myself a motorboat instead of giving it to charity?
Comment by Player — Tue, Mar 27th, 2007 @ 2:03 pm
“Finland is one of the world’s heaviest polluters or something along those lines… ”
I think that was due to Finland’s logging and paper industry. However, much of Europe and other parts of the world benefit mostly from it. I’ll surmise that Finland consumes only a small fraction of what it produces.
“Btw, what’s with finnish words in the topic?”
Finnish words look interesting to non-Finnish speakers. At least I’ve been told that. Maybe it creates curiosity by placing it in the title? Also, it’s a good keyword for google. I should probably put the word ‘environment’ in the text….unless Phil wants to add that as a category?
Comment by Kristian — Tue, Mar 27th, 2007 @ 2:03 pm
oh, there seems to be others posting to this blog than Phil. Sorry about targeting him, my posts were of course pointed to Kristian.
Comment by Player — Tue, Mar 27th, 2007 @ 2:10 pm
“Why can’t a “poor†country be a example to “rich†countries.”
Because who wants to follow those who are poor? The danger is that you might eventually become poor like them
“As long as you have money to keep yourself healthy, you should use your money for good instead of a new SUV/entertainment system/whatever.”
Good point. Healthcare would be at the TOP of my list. Then Education…. All those areas where we always seem to be underfunded.
http://www.finlandforthought.net/2007/03/22/finnish-sairaalat-most-efficient-hospitals-in-the-nordics/#comments
Comment by Kristian — Tue, Mar 27th, 2007 @ 2:35 pm
OK.
Make a poll.
I’ll start it off unscientifically: “You have to fly to Paris from Helsinki on Friday night and a huge airline corporation has two prices to choose from for the ticket. One is 100€ more than the other. Which one do you pick, the cheaper one or the more expensive one?”
Comment by DAVE THE MAVE — Tue, Mar 27th, 2007 @ 2:45 pm
Lapset and Ympäristö. Thats it.
Comment by Jyväskyläläinen — Tue, Mar 27th, 2007 @ 2:53 pm
“Lapset and Ympäristö. Thats it.”
What happens when the lapset turn 65 and don’t die til they’re 95?
Comment by DAVE THE MAVE — Tue, Mar 27th, 2007 @ 3:00 pm
Fuck the lapset. We are all going to die.
Comment by Pessimist — Tue, Mar 27th, 2007 @ 4:01 pm
Gee I just posted something about this.
Here:
- Don’t buy tax-free products outside Finland, especially alcohol. They are already in Finland and used a much more efficient transport mode than you flying/driving them back.
- Don’t burn things, decorative candles, fireplaces, wood saunas.
- Don’t fly First or Business class. Your just hogging up space on the place that can be used to carry others.
- Fly direct whenever possible.
Paying for the right to pollute is silly. Your just undoing the good work of others. That is the idiocy of being carbon neutral. You should be carbon negative!
Comment by Fred Fry — Tue, Mar 27th, 2007 @ 4:40 pm
The planet will be here LOOONG after the worms have finished chewing on you and your children’s bodies in the grave…trust me…the planet ain’t crying.
Global warming ? yeh BS.. the globe warms and cools… get some global education and you’ll see this as fact.
Life is short, so Ill take the money…again, the planet will be here LOOONG after your stinkin corps rots in the earth. as well as your children’s corpses…gone to dust…DUST I tell ya…Dust and worm food…..hahahahah
I ain’t rich. But I ain’t poor either…pay a fee to blue one ? no way !
peace out
Comment by Born there — Tue, Mar 27th, 2007 @ 5:27 pm
‘I have to agree on the point why should we be the first ones doing so.’
If Finland, having come far enough to realize that something needs to be done, decides not to, how can we expect others, perhaps less developed countries to lead the way? It is us and others like us that have caused most of this trouble, and wasted the resources. We have already reaped the economic benefits of polluting at will. Calling Finland a poor country is ridiculous, even in the European context, not to mention globally. If us Finns can’t do it, we’re all fucked.
Comment by aet75 — Tue, Mar 27th, 2007 @ 5:35 pm
By the way, you spelled “ympäristö” incorrectly.
Comment by DAVE THE MAVE — Tue, Mar 27th, 2007 @ 5:38 pm
DAVE, I’m still thinking about your first question. It’s a tough one. Sure it’s not a trick??? I’ll get back to you on it though. Promise
Comment by Punter — Tue, Mar 27th, 2007 @ 6:47 pm
Funny, by being far removed from the rest of Europe and living in such a cold climate, Finns naturally tax the environment more than others. High heating, long distances to travel, wood sauna.
Then add alcohol runs to Germany, Estonia, and Sweden and winter trips to Spain and other sunny locations.
There are two ways to embrace this:
- Repent, and repent hard
- Embrace global warming as one country sure to benefit from it.
Comment by Fred Fry — Tue, Mar 27th, 2007 @ 7:14 pm
Fred, we just might not be that country if the Golf Stream gets fucked up by the changes in temperature, as some scientists claim. Ironically, we might get even more snow and ice as most of the other countries warm up. We’ll surely get our comeuppance for wasting valuable resources…
Comment by Drakon — Tue, Mar 27th, 2007 @ 7:23 pm
Yes we all gonna die someday, happy childhood is good start for adulthood. When you turn over 20 and realyse that life is after that full of shit, at least you can be happy for your childhood, which was not full of shit. Get it?
Sorry my english sucks ass…
Comment by Jyväskyläläinen — Tue, Mar 27th, 2007 @ 7:29 pm
- Embrace global warming as one country sure to benefit from it.
Then again, a diminishing of the North Atlantic Drift, which would occur according to some hypotheses, wouldn’t be so beneficial. Then we’d have to lobby for more burning of fossil fuels in order to compensate.
Paying for the right to pollute is silly. Your just undoing the good work of others. That is the idiocy of being carbon neutral. You should be carbon negative!
The idea is to promote infrastructure changes that reduce emissions in the long run. For instance, emission payments might give incentive for the Finnish government to give tax incentives for installing heat pumps (a substantial investment for the average Jorma).
The system has one fundamental flaw: punishing the producing countries instead of the consuming countries. For instance, paper production is one of the most important reasons that Finland’s ecological footprint is so huge, whereas the consumers get away scott free.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Tue, Mar 27th, 2007 @ 8:06 pm
Go ahead, lower you income. I will just gass up the SUV and drive until the tank is dry.
Or better yet, I am gassin up the boats this weekend.
Good weather in Maryland this weekend. Ya-Ho
Comment by winter “Against stupidity, the gods themselves are helpless.†— Tue, Mar 27th, 2007 @ 11:19 pm
http://money.cnn.com/2007/03/22/real_estate/dangerous_states/
The weather might be good in Maryland, but the state is the fourth most dangerous in the US.
Better not run out of gasssss in the wrong part of town, chilly boy.
Comment by RAVE THE DAVE — Tue, Mar 27th, 2007 @ 11:37 pm
Ya-Ho.
Comment by RAVE THE DAVE — Tue, Mar 27th, 2007 @ 11:37 pm
Thats DC. They had 8 dead in 5 days, and only one arrest. Heck its safer in Baghdad than here. But then thats why we all have guns.
Comment by winter “Against stupidity, the gods themselves are helpless.†— Tue, Mar 27th, 2007 @ 11:40 pm
“Neighboring Southwestern states New Mexico and Arizona joined Nevada as second and third most dangerous states across the country, followed by Maryland and Tennessee.”
http://money.cnn.com/2007/03/22/real_estate/dangerous_states/
No. That’s M-A-R-Y-L-A-N-D.
If you can read, that is. If you want to discuss DC, I hear one third of the population there is illiterate.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=2963272
Illiterate means the inability to read.
Comment by RAVE THE DAVE — Tue, Mar 27th, 2007 @ 11:51 pm
Huh, MARYLAND includes PG County, a part of DC where all the killings happen.
Look at a map.
DC is illiterate because it gets IMMAGRANTS. They can’t all read/write in ENGLISH.
Dave- see the gods below.
Comment by winter “Against stupidity, the gods themselves are helpless.†— Wed, Mar 28th, 2007 @ 2:21 am
Back to carbon footprints - two Los Angeles talk show hosts (John and Ken of radio station KFI), in response to Schwarzenegger paying $10 to some tree farm or whatever when he hops into a private plane, offered the carbon footprint of the trees on their own property to listeners who donated $10 each to some charity. During the discussion on this topic, it was pointed out that China is building new coal plants at an amazing rate, which certainly dwarfs any pollution that Finland is creating.
That’s the problem with these feel good schemes - someone may feel good if they pay extra to reduce their carbon footprint, but no matter what Finland (or even the U.S.) does, there are still people with big feet.
Comment by Ontario Emperor — Wed, Mar 28th, 2007 @ 2:36 am
“there are still people with big feet.”. so true, but in the USA those coal plants were blessed by the environmental movement who did not want Nukes.
At least China has plans to build over 200 new nuke plants, and hopefully not use those coal plants.
You can thank the goody tree huggers if you want.
Comment by winter “Against stupidity, the gods themselves are helpless.†— Wed, Mar 28th, 2007 @ 3:51 am
Winter - The hilarity of you taking the piss on the great unwashed tide of folks for being illiterate while misspelling immigrants is likely lost on you.
I’m not sure I get how a pollution tax for air travel is supposed to help the environment, especially in a country so used to paying out the arse for such things and seems to enjoy paying taxes. I don’t mind paying taxes, but when you pay so much and read about how the elderly are getting the shaft in retirement homes and the city is closing schools during a so-called baby boomlet it makes you think perhaps you need to get smarter leaders first before giving them more money. The airlines will likely laugh all the way to the bank.
Comment by hfb — Wed, Mar 28th, 2007 @ 6:04 am
hfb:
I’m not sure I get how a pollution tax for air travel is supposed to help the environment
If the tax for a round trip from Helsinki to NYC is $20, it’s not going to have much of an effect, apart from making the payer feel good. It’s a small wonder that air travel is the fastest growing cause of emissions. Flying is practically free these days.
perhaps you need to get smarter leaders first before giving them more money
So true. It appears that we’re still stuck with KePu, with Vanhanen as the Prime Player.
On a related note, Vanhanen chided Helsinki for generating most of its power with fossil fuels. Yes, the same Vanhanen who advocates everyone living in Nurmijärvi and driving to Helsinki to work.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Wed, Mar 28th, 2007 @ 7:13 am
#15 Yeah, you’re right. Thanks.
Comment by Kristian — Wed, Mar 28th, 2007 @ 8:54 am
‘the city is closing schools’ (post 29)
And child-care centres. Ours will be shut down in May.
Comment by prince of dorkness — Wed, Mar 28th, 2007 @ 9:51 am
“Huh, MARYLAND includes PG County, a part of DC where all the killings happen.”
Oh, I see. Thanks genius.
Comment by RAVE THE DAVE — Wed, Mar 28th, 2007 @ 8:16 pm
And oh, I’ve wayved the French white flag of surrender on winter’s spelling a long time ago.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Wed, Mar 28th, 2007 @ 9:21 pm
spelling, you mean I can spell? Let me know when that happens.
Comment by winter “Against stupidity, the gods themselves are helpless.†— Wed, Mar 28th, 2007 @ 10:45 pm
winter:
spelling, you mean I can spell? Let me know when that happens.
Modern browsers actually come with spellcheckers. I understand why you wouldn’t want to use one, open source being socialist and all.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Wed, Mar 28th, 2007 @ 10:54 pm
spellchecker? Not in Netscape.
Comment by winter “Against stupidity, the gods themselves are helpless.†— Sun, Apr 1st, 2007 @ 3:19 am
winter:
spellchecker? Not in Netscape.
It’s a standard feature in Firefox 2. Seems to be on by default in the Linux version, not on Windows. I have to look into it.
I would never recommend installing Linux, or any other OSOS. You might be instantly teleported to Lebanon and converted to a human shield for Iran. You wouldn’t even have the time to wayve the French white flag of surrender.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Tue, Apr 3rd, 2007 @ 8:29 pm