Finnish Sairaalat: Most efficient hospitals in the Nordics
Filed under: Uncategorized — Kristian 
@ 2:32 pm
@ 2:32 pm Here’s more great news! Finnish hospitals are deemed to be the “most efficient” of all Nordic countries.
….shorter hospital stays are the reason Finnish hospitals are so efficient. In Finland, patients spend on average less than four days in hospital.
I am so pleased to know that if I am befallen with illness, I’ll be treated in the “most efficient” way possible. Ha!
This reminds me of why having a high-tax, low-Wealth, Finnish-style economy is such a bad idea. But at least we perform well on the “Happiness Survey“, right?
I just wonder if they asked any sick people…..
Did they ask all the dead folks the question? (Do like the British do, and survey by phone?, then make up an answer)
Comment by winter — Thu, Mar 22nd, 2007 @ 3:36 pm
There certainly is a downside to the “efficiency” of Finnish hospitals, which is why so many Finnish nurses go to work at less efficient hospitals in Sweden or Norway, where they spend more on staff, and where nurses can devote more time and attention to each individual patient.
However, for obvious reasons, it would be silly to see this as an indictment of the welfare state model per se.
By the way, all you in the “Europe does everything worse than wonderful America” crowd might do well to read the latest issue of Newsweek:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17659940/site/newsweek/
Comment by Kimmo W. — Thu, Mar 22nd, 2007 @ 3:57 pm
Just out of curiosity: If the news would’ve reported that “Finnish hospitals are the most inefficient in the Nordics”, what would you have said? Something like “welfare state is inefficient, you should privatize hospitals”?
Comment by sj — Thu, Mar 22nd, 2007 @ 4:13 pm
Kimmo W.: “However, for obvious reasons, it would be silly to see this as an indictment of the welfare state model per se.”
That’s true. I see it more as an indictment of the low-wealth economic system that provides the funding. Generally speaking, Finland can’t afford better service; therefore, it must compromise by utilizing ‘efficiency.’
Comment by Kristian — Thu, Mar 22nd, 2007 @ 4:23 pm
Why would we say that when this report can be read as
“Welfare State unable to afford to keep patients in hospitals.”
HELSINKI “According to a newly released report, bankrupt Finnish hospitals are unable to keep patients for any longer than 4 days. Due to a lack of trained doctors, nurses and funding, Finnish patients are let out of hospitals as soon as possible in order to allow for new patients to take the vacated bed while a doctor is available. “It suits us” said Juha Suomalainen as he was thrown out of Tampere Hospital into a waiting State provided taxi for the journey home. “We Finns are always keen to show how efficient we are and we’re known around the world as Flying Finns so why should this be any different?” Mr. Suomalainen then instructed the taxi driver to head straight for the closest florist before going on to the local cemetary where he awaited his fate. “I hope it’s equally efficient up there” he said pointing towards the sky. “Probably won’t be though he sighed, Too many Americans and the like all wanting to privatise…..”
Now that is how it should be read. Or at least would be if the report complemented a privatised health system
he he he
Comment by Punter — Thu, Mar 22nd, 2007 @ 4:29 pm
Whoops. Looks athough young Punter can write but not read…
Despite being offered the chance, he didn’t bother to avail himself of Newsweek’s wisdom:
Consider health care, the benchmark of any nation’s overall well-being. “Americans have the best medical care in the world,” President George W. Bush declared in his second Inaugural Address. Yet the facts show otherwise. The United States is the only developed democracy without a universal guarantee of health care, leaving about 45 million Americans uninsured (and as many again undertreated). Worse, whether measured by questioning public-health experts, polling citizen satisfaction or measuring survival rates, the health care offered by other countries increasingly ranks above America’s. U.S. infant-mortality rates are among the highest for developed democracies. The average Frenchman, like most Europeans, lives nearly four years longer than the average American. Small wonder that the World Health Organization rates the U.S. health-care system only 37th best in the world, behind Colombia (22nd) and Saudi Arabia (26th).”
Comment by kylmä totuus — Thu, Mar 22nd, 2007 @ 4:37 pm
Injuries heal quicker in Finnish hospitals due to efficiency. LOL!
Comment by Phil — Thu, Mar 22nd, 2007 @ 4:38 pm
A prediction: however efficient public service X is in country Y, a fresh crop of market fundamentalists will always come up claiming that private operators can offer the same service several orders of magnitude more efficiently. Examples from the objective reality are not needed, because The Theory can not be wrong.
Comment by Drakon — Thu, Mar 22nd, 2007 @ 4:46 pm
No, I can do both. Still a couple of points. 1. Why do you automatically associate (like so many on this site) any criticism of Finland with a blind “we mean everything in America is better” attitude? Automatically and almost without exception, the moment someone is critical of Finland, you jump down our throat with statistics and such as to why the US is such a mess. Have you ever looked at an atlas and noticed there is more to the world than Finland and The US? Our criticism doesn’t mean USA USA we want America. Why are you so threatened?
2. In defiance of my first point and on the subject of The US, constantly you mention the 42 or 45 million uninsured Americans but tend to overlook therefore the approx 258 million of them that ARE INSURED (based on your figures). Now I seem to remember a short time ago a study here revealed the Finnish system as being heavily weighed against the poor and favouring those employed with an employer provided health care service. Sounds terribly American to me. At a ratio of somewhere around 6.5 insured people for every 1 uninsured, seems to me that while not perfect it’s probably not as bad as you would like to think.
Now, is your glass half full or half empty and more importantly can you afford to fill it?
Comment by Punter — Thu, Mar 22nd, 2007 @ 4:56 pm
My glass is full, brimming over in fact. I suspect the knee-jerk reaction you cite (by the way, there are two separate posts by two separate people so I hope your “you” is generic) is fed by the likes of the excecrable Winter and his foaming at the mouth about European spinelessness and general malaise that one tends to read so tediously often on here - a website that actively advertises itself as discussing Finnish and US matters, and which is run by an American who (when present) brings his peculiarly American spin and myopia to the table.
I nevertheless quite agree with you in principle, and will only say in return that it has been my experience that Americans are themselves equally guilty of the same sin: they often tend to see the world in terms of the US versus some [insert poor, benighted third world nation here], and throw out lines like “Well if you don’t like it here, go to Bangla Desh!”, whereas they should be comparing themselves - favourably or unfavourably with places like Denmark or Italy (or even Finland), which are at least in the first world and on the same playing field.
And *I* didn’t “mention mention the 42 or 45 million uninsured”. Newsweek did. And the WHO.
Comment by kylmä totuus — Thu, Mar 22nd, 2007 @ 5:20 pm
One “mention” over the line, sweet Jesus.
Comment by kylmä totuus — Thu, Mar 22nd, 2007 @ 5:21 pm
kylmä totuus: “My glass is full, brimming over in fact. ”
Ah, you have private medical insurance. Aren’t you Lucky!
_
I guess the rest of us can make due with all the ‘efficiency’ that Finland’s low-budget medical system can offer.
Comment by Kristian — Thu, Mar 22nd, 2007 @ 5:27 pm
258 Million Insured Americans. Gasp, how UN PC of you. We all know the Finnish model is better, so why bring up the facts that Folks “GO to the USA” for medical. Are they going to “Finland” for your wonderful medical system?
Comment by winter — Thu, Mar 22nd, 2007 @ 5:27 pm
Kristian, you really can be quite tedious with your hobby horses. Are there any empirical observations that could theoretically make you change your mind on these issues? If not, then does it really matter what any given survey says about anything? You could just cite imaginary facts and not be bothered at all about the messy reality. And then give the always unchanged and anti-empirical sermon about “low wealth” economies (this in connection with some of the most wealthiest societies on the planet on any sensible measure). Why are you libertarians so unvariably, hmm, how could I put it diplomatically, factually challenged?
Comment by mjr — Thu, Mar 22nd, 2007 @ 5:28 pm
This infant mortality thing by the way is such an awful shame on the US model - it’s the costliest around, can’t even get everyone insured, and THEN manages to get these awful results on the central measures of highly developed, civilized societies. Kristian, what’s the problem, too few billionaires around, a low wealth economy?
Comment by mjr — Thu, Mar 22nd, 2007 @ 5:32 pm
Efficiency is a well-defined concept in industrial engineering. Can’t know if they’ve strictly applied it here, but it isn’t just political jargon. From the point of view of an industrial engineer, a hospital is a kind of factory, with several standard treatments. Each surgery requires the same steps in preparation and aftercare, just like on an assembly line. The patient suffers less if he doesn’t have waiting periods and queuing, so efficiency measurement and improvement is a real gain for everyone.
Efficient hospitals use their existing resources optimally. This requires planning, scheduling, and eliminating waiting periods and overworking. Inefficient hospitals do not; they force the extra work on the staff, while patients have to wait for treatment, because they can’t plan the work efficiently.
Efficiency of hospitals has not been extensively studied, and Finnish researchers such as Paul Lillrank spearhead the research in this field.
Comment by sepisp — Thu, Mar 22nd, 2007 @ 5:33 pm
mjr “on any sensible measure” as defined by you? Why are your lot not able to answer our questions? I think Kristian and co simply put out ideas and we’re supposed to debate and fuss over them. Not refuse to or constantly try shooting the messenger.
Comment by Punter — Thu, Mar 22nd, 2007 @ 5:35 pm
Google “keskeneräinen potilas”, that gives articles.
Comment by sepisp — Thu, Mar 22nd, 2007 @ 5:38 pm
I don’t RECALL saying I have private medical insurance. Perhaps you know better about the state of my finances. All part of the transparency of this little pine and lakes deomcracy, I suppose. I use both the public and the private sector for my medical needs, in just the same way that I use public and private transport to get me from A to B, depending on how quickly I wish to get there and whether I can be bothered either to drive myself or walk to the station or bus stop. When I take a taxi, I do not moan about the taxes I am paying for the bus or train service I did not take, but that others are using.
And on this medical topic, I’m glad to see that Kristian’s panacea for our general wellbeing is the same acetylsalicylic acid tablet of lower taxes as he has ingested for everything else in his life. I do hope it is buffered, or with such a heavy dosage he will soon get acid indigestion, I fear.
Comment by kylmä totuus — Thu, Mar 22nd, 2007 @ 5:41 pm
mjr: “US model - it’s the costliest around, can’t even get everyone insured”
Are you suggesting that if we imported the BEST aspects of the American model (e.g. most advanced treatments and care options), we’d automatically have to include the worst?
And by the way, I’m not even arguing for the American healthcare model here. I’m mainly in favor of the economic system that funds it—or more precisely, the BEST aspects of it.
Finland’s feeble low-wealth model is dependent on maintaining a reasonable GDP. If the world economy declines, then health services will decline for EVERYONE. Conversely, a high-wealth economic model helps insulate against rough economic times.
There’s really no advantage to being poor…..except having ‘nothing-to-lose’ perhaps. Trust me.
Comment by Kristian — Thu, Mar 22nd, 2007 @ 5:43 pm
I suppose infant mortality is not such an important thing? Or those other measures that really indicate what kind of a national health a society has. By those measures, the USA is much behind the “welfare” societies. This is an empirical fact. Why can’t you admit it through? I know you have your talking points, which you mindlessly parrot, but you never really answer anything to any tangible criticism. Fundamentally, that must be because you the Grand Theory that tells you beforehand which facts can be true and which can’t. Just like Marxist-Leninist, or for that matter, Freudians. That is not rational. There is an observable reality, there are facts that are independent of ideology and politics. One of them is that the US health care system is very costly, inefficient and delivers poor national health statistics in comparison with Western European systems with more state intervention and universal coverage. This is simply true. Do you agree or disagree? And if you disagree to what statistics you base your disagreement? Cite the specific tables and studies. So, no more mindless frothing of ideology on this issue - just cold facts from the libertarian camp. For once, bloody hell…
Comment by mjr — Thu, Mar 22nd, 2007 @ 5:44 pm
Got to love the “Infant Motality” line you use. Yet we all know the USA tries to save its Babies, and then that counts against us. You tend to just write them off, have an abortion, make your numbers look good.
Yea great conparison. We call it Fake, but accurate.
Then again, there were 500 000 killed in Iraq, so say the British.
Comment by winter — Thu, Mar 22nd, 2007 @ 5:45 pm
Punter… there you have it. THAT’S why normally sane people on this site tend to adopt the knee-jerk reflex. It’s wrong, I know, but with clowns like that around, what DO you expect?
Comment by kylmä totuus — Thu, Mar 22nd, 2007 @ 5:47 pm
“I’m glad to see that Kristian’s panacea for our general wellbeing is the same acetylsalicylic acid tablet of lower taxes ”
Yes, obviously. Encouraging people with high incomes to stay in Finland simply makes sense. It’s free money for the rest of us……..even those of us who can’t afford to use the private healthcare sector on occasion.
Comment by Kristian — Thu, Mar 22nd, 2007 @ 5:49 pm
Kristian, why then is social mobility in USA so much lower than in the Nordic countries, why is it’s education system quite closed to open competition for all children, why doesn’t the wealth it creates trickle down to deliver excellent health care to all? Can’t you really see any connection between low taxation, steep income differences and the failures to deliver on those issues? You don’t think the way societies is in any way connected to our shortsighted and irrational human nature? Elites should function rationally, but still they tend to form closed systems and cartels and monopolies of power. It’s just a fact of human nature. To balance this we need the strong state to keep the playing field reasonably level and paths in and out of elites relatively open. That’s why it can be dangerous to create a very powerful and hereditary class of super rich and a very large section of population permanently closed from fair social competition through rotten public schools and inefficient and poor health care. If you disagree with this to what specifically you base your disagreement on? Do I see human nature and tendency to form closed elites wrongly?
Comment by mjr — Thu, Mar 22nd, 2007 @ 5:55 pm
I suspect, Kristian, you’d be able to afford it a lot more easily if you were more gainfully employed than writing (somewhat incorrectly) about the National Opera’s surplus on operations and the need to privately finance it on a blog at 4 a.m. in the morning. Or if you didn’t go betting the farm on claims about ticket prices… Where IS my money, by the way
But this is of course a mere cavil and only a silly suspicion. I’m sure the drive you show in the cause of lower taxes for the wealthy spills over into your job, and that those late nights at the keyboard only inspire you to greater feats in your cubicle at work.
Comment by kylmä totuus — Thu, Mar 22nd, 2007 @ 6:01 pm
“Yet we all know the USA tries to save its Babies, and then that counts against us. You tend to just write them off, have an abortion, make your numbers look good.”
Gee, Winter, you just make it so easy!
A quick look at the results of a Google search indicates that the abortion rate in the USA is significantly higher than in Scandinavia.
Comment by Kimmo W. — Thu, Mar 22nd, 2007 @ 6:17 pm
#26: “I suspect, Kristian, you’d be able to afford it a lot more easily if you were more gainfully employed”
So you think healthcare should only be good for those who can “more easily” afford it? How generous of you.
Fortunately, I, such as you, am one of the ‘lucky’ ones. My wife and I both have private insurance. In our case, it covers us globally so we can bypass the Finnish medical system altogether if necessary.
However, I have relatives in Finland that are not so fortunate. Not-so-long ago, we paid to have one flown to Florida for a parathyroid operation. A doctor there specializes in the procedure using local anesthesia and lasers. It’s far safer than going under full anesthesia; especially so for an older person.
Try to find that here in low-budget Finland…..or low-budget Europe for that matter. We couldn’t even find it in Switzerland during that time. Maybe it’s arrived by now?
Comment by Kristian — Thu, Mar 22nd, 2007 @ 6:21 pm
Kimmo
Abortion rates have nothing to do with it. Its the Infant Mortality rate, based on numbers of kids dying. Ours is high, because we try to save them. If we were like you, then we would not even try, do an abortion (lets those rates go up), and have nice, feel good, we are PC, low Infant Mortality rates.
Sorry to burst your social vrs capitalism bubble.
Comment by winter — Thu, Mar 22nd, 2007 @ 7:41 pm
Oh… so one can edit on here, can one? I never knew. That first paragraph is new, I believe. Requires a reply. You are being a bit obtuse, or else not reading very carefully.
I suggested to you that you would be better able to afford it from that “little Finnish worker salary” you were referring to elsewhere (I notice you didn’t mention the cushy global private insurance you are apparently able to afford out of that little salary, or does the employer pay it, in which case the salary doesn’t sound so quite so little after all), if you spent more time gainfully employed or even getting a good night’s sleep, rather than pontificating about things you seem woefully not up to speed on - how come a Finn doesn’t know the opera is funded by Veikkaus? - in the small hours of the morning. In fact nearly all the hours God gives.
Sometimes I even wonder if you are gainfully employed at all, in which case I hate to think I’m actually paying taxes to give you the pleasure of indulging your hobby of writing about reducing them.
I do NOT think the health service should be solely for those who can afford to opt out, nor do I think it is perfect in its present form(nothing in Finland is), but I do draw the line at ill-directed and ill-informed criticism. Especially when it is always driven by the same tired agenda.
Now I think you really should address MJR’s perfectly cogent comments. Throw back empirical findings in his or her face if you can, and do not content yourself or patronise the rest of us with citing the example of a single case, however laudable your actions might have been.
Comment by kylmä totuus — Thu, Mar 22nd, 2007 @ 7:57 pm
#29 “Abortion rates have nothing to do with it”
You seem to think it does. In #22 you respond to information on infant mortality by writing:
“You tend to just write them off, have an abortion, make your numbers look good.”
That would seem to suggest that the Nordic Countries avoid bad infant mortality statistics by aborting a large proportion of their fetuses.
The United States has BOTH a higher infant mortality rate, AND a higher abortion rate than the Nordic Countries.
Despite what you seem to think, Winter, stupidity is not a virtue.
Comment by Kimmo W. — Thu, Mar 22nd, 2007 @ 8:00 pm
Should read: “I do NOT think health services should be solely for those who can afford to opt out of the public-sector system”…
Comment by kylmä totuus — Thu, Mar 22nd, 2007 @ 8:01 pm
#9 “…constantly you mention the 42 or 45 million uninsured Americans but tend to overlook therefore the approx 258 million of them that ARE INSURED (based on your figures).”
Sounds like a Bush fan talking about how the gloom-and-doom crowd focus on the thousands that have been killed in Iraq, ignoring the millions who are STILL ALIVE!
Comment by Kimmo W. — Thu, Mar 22nd, 2007 @ 8:51 pm
mjr- “why doesn’t the wealth it creates trickle down to deliver excellent health care to all?”
“To balance this we need the strong state to keep the playing field reasonably level”
I’m relly trying hard to understand you and your ideology but help me to do it. Why would any wealth I or anyone else for that matter create have to trickle down for all? If I created it, why do I have to share it with those that have not participated in its creation? As for a strong state, do you not think that is at least a little 1960’s GDR/USSR in its tone? I mean today, 2007, are you honestly convinced that the State has a place in our private and corporate life? Have we not seen an attempt at that previously that ended up in disaster?
I am sincere and not “taking the Micky” here but I feel these simple questions may help me better understand your opinions as I see them simply wrong. HELP
Comment by Punter — Thu, Mar 22nd, 2007 @ 8:55 pm
Come on Kimmo. Try harder plesae. It is a simple fact that we do focus on a smallish minority of people outside the private system rather than the majority covered by it. As I said, I think the Finnish system is somewhat comparable in terms of those avoiding the long public lines through work provided health care. In a sense, using a private sysytem not available to all. Just a pity we pay for both.
Comment by Punter — Thu, Mar 22nd, 2007 @ 8:59 pm
“smallish minority of people outside the private system rather than the majority covered by it.”
What’s your point? Are you talking about Finland or somewhere else? If it’s Finland, my own experience is that the public system has served my family just fine in most respects. For dental care, I’ve gone private - a bit expensive, but he’s good. For other things, I’ve never had to wait too long to get an appointment, and referrals to specialists go quite well too.
So it is not my experience that Finnish public health care is exclusively for the dirt-poor who can’t afford anything better. Certainly, there’s room for improvement, but not nearly as much as in the USA.
Comment by Kimmo W. — Thu, Mar 22nd, 2007 @ 9:45 pm
As someone who has worked in the Finnish health care system I can affirm that Winter does have a point about the babies. In Finland, if a baby is born to early(before week 22 i believe) nothing is done to try save them, and they are considered as being dead births.
In America they try to save these babies, often with poor results.(baby dies anyway) The end result is that America has a very skewed infant mortality rate.
Furthermore, during the ultrasound screening the baby is checked for certain “defects” that threaten the babies future life expectancy. The recommended option in these cases is abortion. This skews Finnish stats because these babies would reflect in the infant mortality rates if they came to term, as they have a high risk of death soon after birth, or during birth.
Because Americans are more religious in nature, they are more likely to bring these babies with “defects” to term.
This all being said, Finlands aitiysneuvols(mothers advice clinic) system is very good at insuring that mothers live in a healthy way that is conductive for having a healthy child. IMO this is a strong reason behind the good infant mortality statistics.
Comment by Unit — Thu, Mar 22nd, 2007 @ 9:46 pm
“why do I have to share it with those that have not participated in its creation?”
You don’t. If you have the nicest toys in the sandpit, you can naturally play with them all by yourself, but I strongly advise you to make sure your mummy and daddy are close at hand, or that you have a gated sandpit, because sooner or later someone is going to swipe them. Probably swiping you first. It might also be a bit dull playing by yourself, but if you don’t believe in society, that shouldn’t be a huge problem.
Basically, your argument also suggests that we’d more honestly be ruled by sexa- and septu- and octogenarians who jealously guard all the wealth that their generation has created through their labours on behalf of the society as a whole, and that the passing of wealth from one generation to the next - to people who have NOT toiled and sweated in the fields and factories of life - would be forbidden outright. Are you of that opinion, or do you make an exception for helping “your own”?
As for your comments about the strong state or lack of it, when I see a distinct change for the better in humans’ endemic selfishness and greed and a greater sense of social solidarity rearing its head, I’ll be a lot more willing to contemplate removing the reins of a democratically elected and accountable government. I’d love to see a world without police and without sanctions for wrongdoing or without the need for safeguards against the quick driving over the slow and then reversing on them, but right now I’m not overly optimistic. I presume you must be, even though you don’t seem to like playing with the other children.
Comment by kylmä totuus — Thu, Mar 22nd, 2007 @ 10:26 pm
kylmä totuus says how come a Finn doesn’t know the opera is funded by Veikkaus?
kylmä totuus are you an idiot?
Veikkaus is owned by Finnish government. It is government money that funds opera. The same government money could be spend on something else.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veikkaus
Comment by Redman — Thu, Mar 22nd, 2007 @ 10:53 pm
Fair comments and thanks for your opinion. As for your question of wishing to help my own, well yes. Call me selfish or whatever you so wish but I do rather the idea of helping those I wish to than having the government decide it for me. Now that doesn’t mean I’d choose to help no-one. In fact I may turn out to be very generous and giving. My point though is simply that I prefer to have the power to decide who I see fit to help be it a small African village in need of drinking water or a large under funded group of opera performers in Finland. I believe in people and given a chance to help, most of us would do so. I just refuse to accept it is a governmanet’s right to decide who I help and how.
Comment by Punter — Thu, Mar 22nd, 2007 @ 11:04 pm
the bottom line is that the dirt-poor finns don’t have a health care to speak of. the international surveys saying otherwise were cooked up by vanhanen and co. they also killed jfk. by the way.
Comment by Tomi — Thu, Mar 22nd, 2007 @ 11:05 pm
Unit:
“As someone who has worked in the Finnish health care system I can affirm that Winter does have a point about the babies. In Finland, if a baby is born to early(before week 22 i believe) nothing is done to try save them, and they are considered as being dead births.”
And you have proof for this statement no doubt?
Comment by Thomas — Thu, Mar 22nd, 2007 @ 11:06 pm
Redman:
“Veikkaus is owned by Finnish government. It is government money that funds opera. The same government money could be spend on something else.”
Redman, are you an idiot. Veikkaus, while being “government owned”, does quite well with completly voluntary PRIVATE funding.
Comment by Thomas — Thu, Mar 22nd, 2007 @ 11:09 pm
Errr… Veikkaus is funded VOLUNTARILY by punters who like to believe they can beat the 26 million-something to one odds of winning Lotto. When you tell me that gambling is compulsory - in other words tax revenue from the meagre earnings of Finnish working stiffs is forcibly taken to pay the salaries of Veikkaus employees and dish out its profits, I might start listening to your babble.
Anyway, soon you won’t have to worry, as the EU is hot-to-trot on removing the Veikkaus “monopoly” on gaming and allowing in Ladbrokes, so you’ll be able to give your money to their private and institutional shareholders instead and not have to worry about some rich folks listening to people singing. Unless you feel for the shareholders’ ears, of course.
Yes, the money could go on something else. Though I somehow have the feeling that if you were the one doing the choosing, it wouldn’t go on many things YOU don’t think are necessary. They might not be the same things as the next person. Or the next.
Comment by kylmä totuus — Thu, Mar 22nd, 2007 @ 11:10 pm
“That would seem to suggest that the Nordic Countries avoid bad infant mortality statistics by aborting a large proportion of their fetuses.”
I never said that, you did. Is a simple case of cooking the books, to show your so called good nature, or to cover up your really bad health care system.
I lean toward a bad health care system, unable and unwilling to save early babies, because it costs money.
You really need more “Human Shields” so your Oil Bill can be lowered.
Comment by winter — Thu, Mar 22nd, 2007 @ 11:15 pm
Hey Winter, me and another poster were having a bet the other day that you are really a plant - a trolling stooge of the rampant left. Actually it never came to a wager, because we both came down on the side that you HAD to be, since nobody on your side of the fence could conceivably shoot themselves in the foot quite so often, unless they were Cheney on quaaludes. So fess up and tell us - it’s all a gag, right? I mean you do it very WELL, but enough’s enough. Quit while you’ve got some toes left.
Comment by kylmä totuus — Thu, Mar 22nd, 2007 @ 11:22 pm
“As for a strong state, do you not think that is at least a little 1960’s GDR/USSR in its tone? I mean today, 2007, are you honestly convinced that the State has a place in our private and corporate life? Have we not seen an attempt at that previously that ended up in disaster?”
Ah, that’s an exact description of the Nanny state Finland has today. All you are missing is the 5 yr plans.
You can’t : Get Fired, Buy a car without super high taxes, keep your money you earned, please send 60% of it in, pick your own doctors, blow your nose, and piss on the sidewalk anymore.
Did I forget, the big benefit of all this Nanny state: you get a free baby box?
Comment by winter — Thu, Mar 22nd, 2007 @ 11:27 pm
“Quit while you’ve got some toes left. :)”
Naw, my neighbor has a gun closet, the size of a National Guard Armory. We will never run out of ammo here. He can even reload ammo. We have duck and cover rules for anyone driving during hunting season.
Comment by winter — Thu, Mar 22nd, 2007 @ 11:31 pm
Sorry, had to interrupt the discussion and rush to see The Three Penny Opera in the Helsinki City Theatre. (One wonders why they call it Kerjäläisooppera as it is not the original but Brecht’s adaptation.) Felt quite satisfying: not only is it heavily subsidized - the theatre would certainly make steep losses without honest tax money - but the play was also of all people by Brecht. Not that I really appreciate him as a person (or as an ideologue) but I just felt nicely un-libertarian about the whole evening! Not that there would have been much advance in the debate in the meanwhile by the opposite camp. It must feel nice to have an all encompassing, all explaining Theory, but it does make it obviously very difficult to debate with reality based people… Like what do all these FACTS and OBSERVATIONS have to do with anything - if it doesn’t work in your pet theory, it obviously doesn’t exist… Strange that you should then go and abuse the French with this cavalier Parisian attitude to observable reality.
Comment by mjr — Thu, Mar 22nd, 2007 @ 11:38 pm
“As for your question of wishing to help my own, well yes. Call me selfish or whatever you so wish but I do rather the idea of helping those I wish to than having the government decide it for me.”
My sentiments ENTIRELY. Yippee, we agree!
Now that my children have fled the nest, all that kindergarten and peruskoulu and university tuition fees stuff can go to hell for all I care, and with the private pension plan and my health insurance, put together out of the few shekels left each month, sod the health system, too. And as for national defence, well, just as soon as I’ve finished paying the second home off, I’ll be selling up this one and buggering off to the warm anyway, so I really don’t give a fuck if the Russians or the Swedes or the Luxemburgers march in. Let ‘em have it. Boggy old place anyway, full of mosquitoes and snow. Wassthatyousay? Development aid, what? Leave it out, mate. Paying through the nose to prevent them all voting with their feet and coming up north or blowing up our embassies? Who cares, won’t be my problem, will it? I’ll be tucked up in rural Provence down a long drive with a gate and a barbed-wire fence at the end. Polar bears on icefloes? Fuck ‘em, they kill nice baby seals anyway. Oh, but I’ll give to the seals - cute little furry things they are.
Yeah, you and me, Punter, we’ve got it right. We should be entitled to choose who and what to support. Kind of like charity. Make sure it’s something nice, like. AIDS victims are a bit messy, and the mentally handicapped, well, you don’t really want to look at them, do you now? But I’m sure I can find SOMETHING I like. Maybe a park bench or two… would have to have my name engraved on it, mind.
Note: No polar bears were harmed in the making of this post.
Comment by kylmä totuus — Thu, Mar 22nd, 2007 @ 11:50 pm
God, why are you so bitter about having good, free care where it counts, like in saving lives?
Comment by Anonymous — Fri, Mar 23rd, 2007 @ 1:24 am
“free care where it counts,”
free is not free, you are taking it from someone who worked for it.
Its just not fair, to steal, pick your neighbors pockets, just because you chose the path you went down.
Now put you frakin money where your mouth is, and give ALL YOUR money to the government. Guess you will not, typical liberal, its not from my pocket, if I can give from yours.
Its like the Clintons and Public schools. Did they send their only kid to one, hell no.
Comment by winter — Fri, Mar 23rd, 2007 @ 2:40 am
kylmä totuus:
the EU is hot-to-trot on removing the Veikkaus “monopoly†on gaming and allowing in Ladbrokes
Well, at least Ladbrokes offers a game - poker - in which it is possible to win in the long run. Compare that to the 26 million to one odds Lotto gives you. Rahapelifoorumi, which is mostly comprised of members of RAY, Veikkaus and Fintoto, of course tried to get playing of internet poker banned altogether in Finland. They would let you gamble but choose only games in which you can not win.
Comment by mh — Fri, Mar 23rd, 2007 @ 2:47 am
Unit - While I understand the practicality of letting premie babies die, I find it somehow horribly sad. I don’t know that it has so much to do with religion as our deeply ingrained sense of optimism. What is science and medicine for if you can’t apply it to saving a young life like that? What happens in Finland if the parents want to try and save the child? I’m also a bit curious about the abortions as a colleague of mine whose wife was pregnant went to the public system for an ultrasound where they deemed the fetus dead and said she’d just miscarry….as I recall he had to take her to a private clinic for an abortion rather than wait for a decidedly less pleasant miscarriage.
Also, if you look on the CDC website, since this topic has been covered before, you’ll find the infant mortality rate for whites to be very close to Finland’s. It’s an unfortunate reality that minorities have a much higher rate for a variety of reasons in the US.
It will be interesting to see just how ‘efficient’ the health care system will become in Finland in the next few years as the retirement exodus begins leaving fewer taxpayers in its wake and much more demands on the system.
Comment by hfb — Fri, Mar 23rd, 2007 @ 6:01 am
“Its like the Clintons and Public schools. Did they send their only kid to one, hell no.”
So what are you complaining about here? Are you saying that because the Clintons, who are presumably supporters of the availability of public education opted out of it for their own fmily, public schools should be abolished?
Could you explain the logic of this position? Well, there I go, letting hope triumph over experience once again!
Comment by Kimmo W. — Fri, Mar 23rd, 2007 @ 8:19 am
Now here’s a nice item from Washington Monthly - any fake belly laughs Kristian?
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2007_03/010986.php
The state of California has fined Blue Cross $1 million for illegally cancelling policies:
The investigation found that Blue Cross used computer programs and a dedicated department to systematically cancel the policies of pregnant women and the chronically ill regardless of whether they intentionally lied on their applications to cover up pre-existing medical conditions, a standard required by state law for canceling individual policies. Regulators examined 90 randomly selected cases of policy cancellations and found violations in each one.
Comment by mjr — Fri, Mar 23rd, 2007 @ 10:01 am
Hey, remember that hfb is a racist before you think about taking her seriously.
hfb (about the Finns and Americans): “I’ve not seen a single violent, pooping, pissing or passing out in the street drunk since I left the so-called happiest nation in the EU, another baseless claim that mere observation doesn’t support, […] Maybe it’s genetic, too.â€Â
No! There’s nothing remotely racist there!
Comment by Anonymous — Fri, Mar 23rd, 2007 @ 11:57 am
OK then, one basic question to you guys: does a civilized society have _any_ moral responsibility whatsoever of taking care of those who cannot take care of themselves IYO? Phil? Kristian? Winter?
Comment by AnonyMeaCulpa — Fri, Mar 23rd, 2007 @ 12:09 pm
mh #53: Sure, you can win in poker, but the winning players are in minority. Where do you think their winnings come from? The vast majority lose, some more, some less. In fact this current poker craze is a ticking timebomb for multiplying gambling problems. Now as playing for money is cool (not only a bit pathetic as with those old ladies blowing away their pensions on slot machines) a lot more people are drawn in, and certain percentage of them will develop a gambling problem - that otherwise might have never realized.
For Veikkaus this opposition to internet poker is a strange ideological position to take (they already have their games available online), when they could the same thing as the Svenska Spel did and open a “official, safe, national poker site” of their own. It would, no doubt, get a huge following in just a few months.
Comment by Drakon — Fri, Mar 23rd, 2007 @ 12:43 pm
When you’re dying of a shot-wound or pulminary embolism, the first thing you think about on the Ambulance isn’t “Darn, I’m gonna have to put in a few more hours to work off this one!” when your hospital system is efficent and run by your tax money; unlike the United States, where it’s the first thing you think of unless you’re wealthy enough to be able to sit back on your high haunches and preach about how people should be able to support themselves and the government is stealing your money.
Comment by Anonymous — Fri, Mar 23rd, 2007 @ 1:42 pm
This seems a really dumb conversation unless it’s clear what “efficient” means, which Kristian’s post at least doesn’t make clear. British hospitals have, at least according to the media, ever increasing problems with drug resistant infections. You go into hospital for an overnight small op, and come out six weeks later having only just survived some viral infection that nearly killed you. If Finland doesn’t have these type of problems, OF COURSE they will be more efficient.
Comment by Toby - Northern Light Blog — Fri, Mar 23rd, 2007 @ 2:28 pm
AnonyMeaCulpa: “OK then, one basic question to you guys: does a civilized society have _any_ moral responsibility whatsoever of taking care of those who cannot take care of themselves IYO? Phil? Kristian? Winter?”
I can’t answer for the others, but… Unlike the so-called egalitarians on this thread, I actually do believe in high quality healthcare for the lower stata. But it simply can’t be achieved within the context of the most “efficient” system in the Nordics.
The ideas of income egalitarianism and high quality healthcare for the lower strata clearly do not support each other. An economy can’t function optimally that way.
We’ve been insured under the Swiss, German and US systems. In the Swiss and German cases, we had the same coverage as a wino on the street. Nearly everyone is insured under the same ‘basic’ plans. You don’t really need more.
We’ll take any one of those before the Finnish one. It really comes down to the economics that support the health system; not necessarily the health system itself.
Comment by Kristian — Fri, Mar 23rd, 2007 @ 2:39 pm
“It really comes down to the economics that support the health system; not necessarily the health system itself.”
I should say it comes down to both. You can’t have one without the other.
Comment by Kristian — Fri, Mar 23rd, 2007 @ 2:48 pm
Anonymous - Am I a racist for thinking you’re a spineless prick for having an axe to grind and making a lame go of it, too? So passive-aggressive, so Finnish.
Toby - I believe ‘efficient’ in this context means shorter stays and less staff.
And, again, the US does have a tax supported low-income health system that works much like the Finnish system does as if you want better care and elective care, you get private insurance through your employer. Those without coverage are often illegals and low income who earn too much and have an employer who does not offer private insurance. Some states like MA are now offering heavily subsidized public plans for these folks. Even with medical coverage it’s best to stay out of hospitals anymore with the staff shortages.
Comment by hfb — Fri, Mar 23rd, 2007 @ 3:30 pm
“does a civilized society have _any_ moral responsibility whatsoever of taking care of those who cannot take care of themselves ”
Absolutly. but.
They must be trully needy. We all cover the folks who show up sick at a Medical Center. But, there are many folks, taking advantage of that fact, and they bring in a child for a cold. Thats not needy, its saying, you owe me, take care of me.
No, we don’t owe you. We can take care of you, with the expectation you will pay us back.
Comment by winter — Fri, Mar 23rd, 2007 @ 3:52 pm
Cheers guys, thanks for answering. Phil?
Comment by AnonyMeaCulpa — Fri, Mar 23rd, 2007 @ 5:48 pm
I too would wish to add my 2 cents in that yes, to a degree society should provide for those that can’t provide for themselves. That’s the cornerstone of my idea against the current system. By creating an economic system that provides more of an advantage for hardworking (read wealthier) citizens, they would choose to take out private health and education for example thus reducing the burden currently facing the public sector in these fields. As a roll on, those in genuine need of help would have a smaller yet less crowded system built around them instead of the current dinosaur trying to cover everyone.
As Kristian said, the economy to support such a system is what we lack but hopefully someday in the future, the benefits of a combined system will be explored.
Comment by Punter — Fri, Mar 23rd, 2007 @ 7:41 pm
“Combined system”. First you are already going there, taking the USA model. We want credit by the way.
Who wants to stand in line. Come on guys its 2007, and we don’t have Lennen around any more. Guess he died.
Your private companies are going to insurance now, so you are switching models now.
Comment by winter “Against stupidity, the gods themselves are helpless.†— Fri, Mar 23rd, 2007 @ 7:49 pm
“we don’t have Lennen around any more.”
Who?
Comment by Kimmo W. — Sat, Mar 24th, 2007 @ 9:35 am
Lennon, I think he means Lennon. But we do have McCartney though.
Comment by mjr — Sat, Mar 24th, 2007 @ 11:39 am
“So what are you complaining about here? Are you saying that because the Clintons, who are presumably supporters of the availability of public education opted out of it for their own fmily, public schools should be abolished?”
Who said Public schools should be abolished.
No its the, I am your Leader, watch me do the opposite of what I say you all should do.
Pure Hypocrisy. That’s the left in this country.
Any one some carbon credits? I have a firm that sells them to you. I will plant trees with all the money I get. (After expenses)
Comment by winter “Against stupidity, the gods themselves are helpless.†— Sat, Mar 24th, 2007 @ 1:59 pm
I helped a woman who passed out in the middle of the busy street after just being released from the hospital in downtown Helsinki.
I could not figure how she was released if she was so ill that she collapsed one block from the hospital.
I half walked and half carried her back to the hospital and probably ruined their efficiency statistics for that day.
Comment by Peter — Sat, Mar 24th, 2007 @ 3:19 pm
“probably ruined their efficiency statistics for that day.”
naw, thats all fake. They just restarted her stay in the hospital, you will see her out in 3 days.
Same for Babies. You let early births die, call it an early termination, and look good.
Its just cookin the book, so the welfare state look good on paper. So why does the welfare state system not get outside visits? Who flies to Finland for an operation? Its so good they must be comming?
The USA has entire Hospitals who care for foreign nationals. At MD Anderson in Texas they even have a 5 star Hotel attached, with an air-walk to get across the street. Does Helsinki have that?
Comment by winter “Against stupidity, the gods themselves are helpless.†— Sat, Mar 24th, 2007 @ 9:04 pm
Winter:
“The USA has entire Hospitals who care for foreign nationals. At MD Anderson in Texas they even have a 5 star Hotel attached, with an air-walk to get across the street. Does Helsinki have that?”
Maybe those hospitals could care for those US nationals who aren’t covered by national health care?
Interesting that someone actually BRAGGs about the fact that their home country provides services to foreigners, that nationals can’t afford. As if that is a measure of greatness. Any African country can brag similarily.
You are an idiot. IDIOT. Sorry. Not even the “great” US heealth care can cure that.
Comment by Thomas — Sat, Mar 24th, 2007 @ 9:25 pm
Thomas
Just what US National can’t walk into any USA Hospital and get treatment? Please name one person.
We have Health Care, but we expect you to go private first, and pay your own way. The Government is a safety net, not the provider here.
Comment by winter “Against stupidity, the gods themselves are helpless.†— Sat, Mar 24th, 2007 @ 10:48 pm
Winter:
“Just what US National can’t walk into any USA Hospital and get treatment? Please name one person.”
James “aka Jim” Smith.
Is that all the information you need?
FUCKING IDIOT
Now, prove me wrong. Moron.
Comment by Thomas — Sat, Mar 24th, 2007 @ 11:45 pm
For once Winter. here here. A safety net, not the provider. People here would be amazed. Thomas, it’s not that simple…..
Comment by Punter — Sun, Mar 25th, 2007 @ 12:03 am
Punter:
“Thomas, it’s not that simple…..”
Why not?
Comment by Thomas — Sun, Mar 25th, 2007 @ 12:35 am
Thomas, we all take winter’s inability to write cohesively, but you writing “idiot” in ALL CAPS just doesn’t add too much to the whole thing.
The fact is, if you have an emergency health issue in the US you WILL be treated. Ever hear of the ? Hippocratic Oath ?
How payment is made (later) is another issue.
But if you’re bleeding you will be bandaged.
Stop perpetrating lies you obviously know nothing about. Have you ever been to the US, and if so, have you ever been denied health care?
Maybe you just wanted to join the idiot gang?
Comment by DAVE THE RAVE — Sun, Mar 25th, 2007 @ 11:17 am
“Thomas, it’s not that simple…..”
No, but he apparently is.
Comment by DAVE THE RAVE — Sun, Mar 25th, 2007 @ 11:20 am
Dave
You talking to yourself again?
Comment by winter “Against stupidity, the gods themselves are helpless.†— Sun, Mar 25th, 2007 @ 1:42 pm
#79
Unless you have to have a lets say heart surgery, you can have it but it’ll cost you 50 000- ?.
So you indeed have a choice in USA. save your life and live in the streets or enjoy whats left of it and actually live under a roof
Comment by Anonymous — Sun, Mar 25th, 2007 @ 2:15 pm
“I just wonder if they asked any sick people…..”
Heh, I was very pleased with my efficient hospital experience in the dreaded public health care. I walked in at 15:00, had my hernia operated around 18:00, regained my legs back from epidural about 19:00, ate like a wolf at 20:00 and had my workmate sign me out about 22:00, after the nurse was convinced that I was still able to pee…
They insisted on someone coming to pick me up before I got released. Taking taxi to home door wasn’t good enough.
Comment by Antti rn — Sun, Mar 25th, 2007 @ 3:33 pm
“You talking to yourself again?” - winter
Good job! You made a comment without a single spelling or grammatical error!
Comment by DAVE THE RAVE — Sun, Mar 25th, 2007 @ 4:07 pm
84.
Oops, I take that back. You should have written “ARE you talking to yourself again?”
My mistake. And yours.
Comment by DAVE THE RAVE — Sun, Mar 25th, 2007 @ 4:09 pm
Huh
“save your life and live in the streets or enjoy whats left of it and actually live under a roof”
Buy Insurance. Its that simple. Less than 3K per yr in a group plan.
Comment by winter “Against stupidity, the gods themselves are helpless.†— Sun, Mar 25th, 2007 @ 7:03 pm
DAVE:
“The fact is, if you have an emergency health issue in the US you WILL be treated. Ever hear of the ? Hippocratic Oath ?”
Ever heard of anyone being denied “emergency health care” in Finland, despite the fact that winter, kristian, … and all other IDIOTS claim the finnish health-care is more or less worthless?
No. Hippocrates is just as alive in Finland as anywhere else.
“Stop perpetrating lies you obviously know nothing about. Have you ever been to the US, and if so, have you ever been denied health care?”
Stop lying about what I’ve said, liar. When have I said that it is not the case that “if you have an emergency health issue in the US you WILL be treated.”? I’m close to using the I-word w.r.t. you as well.
Read what people say, before you answer them.
Comment by Thomas — Sun, Mar 25th, 2007 @ 8:41 pm
Thomas, take a breath. Read your own posts. You are certainly leading to the fact that in your mind anyone outside of the US insurance system will go without treatment. This certainly isn’t the case. As to what happens thereafter is another matter but the care will come at least.
Also if I could offer a little advice? Stop with the personal insults all the time. I mean really, they take away from the otherwise sensible comments you’ve made on previous topics and leave nothing other than a wry smile and a bad taste in the mouth.
Comment by Punter — Sun, Mar 25th, 2007 @ 9:05 pm
“Buy Insurance. Its that simple.”
Trouble is, in a completely market-driven health care system, insurance companies have a tendency to deny insurance for anyone they consider particuarly likely to get sick - that is, the ones who need it most.
Comment by Kimmo W. — Sun, Mar 25th, 2007 @ 9:31 pm
#89 That’s true. In a purely market driven system, only those who are healthy would get coverage. The US is not a completely market driven system though.
If I’m not mistaken, US federal law mandates that everyone is eligible for insurance, regardless of health. I could be wrong about that, but individual States have their own sets of protections nonetheless. For example….
http://www.healthcoverageguide.org/referenceguide/index.cfm?itemID=21413
Ultimately, it all depends on how the laws are written. The US with 300-million population and 50-States probably isn’t the best example for having the best written laws. But it does have the best quality of care, best educated physicians and most financial resources to purchase the newest equipment.
Comment by Kristian — Mon, Mar 26th, 2007 @ 12:05 am
I read that at least one US state is mandating people to buy insurance. That way they’ll spend the first dollars they earn on healthcare rather than other consumer items. It sort of works like a tax when you think about it.
That’s basically how Switzerland does it. It’s a good system because the employer stays out of the process altogether. I wouldn’t want my employer snooping around my private healthcare information.
Comment by Kristian — Mon, Mar 26th, 2007 @ 12:09 am
Punter:
“You are certainly leading to the fact that in your mind anyone outside of the US insurance system will go without treatment.”
This is a LIE. The fact that people like you don’t recognise this, shows what kind of people you are. LIARS.
Comment by Thomas — Mon, Mar 26th, 2007 @ 12:13 am
#89
And even if you have an insurance it doesn’t cover all
http://www.helpconnie.blogspot.com/
Something like this haven’t ever come up in Finland but somehow in USA this possible.
I guess she’ll end up in the emergency room for the rest of her life.
Comment by Anonymous — Mon, Mar 26th, 2007 @ 12:15 am
“insurance companies have a tendency to deny insurance for anyone they consider particularly likely to get sick ”
Well yea. No kidding. Would you insure someone who has AIDS?
Insurance is all about risk. Risky people should be charged more, they made a risk decision, now they need to live with it.
It all about the risk takers wanting my cheep insurance. They should not be rewarded for what they do.
I had a friend who worked in Insurance. His job was to cancel policies of Gay bars when they forgot to pay their premiums. Its one way to move the risk takers into a separate “High” cost insurance group that they should be in.
Comment by winter “Against stupidity, the gods themselves are helpless.†— Mon, Mar 26th, 2007 @ 12:17 am
*Something like this hasn’t ever come up in Finland but somehow in USA this is possible.
Comment by Anonymous — Mon, Mar 26th, 2007 @ 12:18 am
“I had a friend who worked in Insurance. His job was to cancel policies of Gay bars”
That’s absolutely horrible
Comment by Kristian — Mon, Mar 26th, 2007 @ 1:12 am
“That’s absolutely horrible”
No, it is business. You cut losses, reward good behavior. Get rich.
Comment by winter “Against stupidity, the gods themselves are helpless.†— Mon, Mar 26th, 2007 @ 2:57 am
#97
Sure “it’s business”, but it doesn’t mean it isn’t horrible.
Comment by Kimmo W. — Mon, Mar 26th, 2007 @ 6:48 am
So in the end of the day, we are nanny-stated either by the state or the insurance companies cutting losses and promoting good behaviour.
It’s OK even for the Finnish state, if I weld in the garage, but damned insurance company is demanding all kinds of qualifications for a simple work. If they were in charge, only approvable freetime activities would be lace-making and knitting with a helmet on.
Comment by Antti rn — Mon, Mar 26th, 2007 @ 9:58 am
“nanny-stated either by the state or the insurance companies cutting losses and promoting good behaviour.”
Yep, the difference is the nanny state, just naggs, and give you my money anyway. The Insurance company hits your wallet, not mine.
Just guess who is more effective.
Comment by winter “Against stupidity, the gods themselves are helpless.†— Mon, Mar 26th, 2007 @ 2:20 pm
It all about the risk takers wanting my cheep insurance. They should not be rewarded for what they do.
So your insurance company is not aware of the duck-and-cover routines you have to do during hunting season? Maybe I should give them a call.
Comment by Pave — Tue, Mar 27th, 2007 @ 12:40 pm
Duck and cover??? Well after the neighbors stopped me on the road and asked me to get a red hat, I now run with a red hat.
Lot less gun shots that way. Poor deer are dying all over, we even bagged one with the car last week. I did mean to slow down.
Comment by winter “Against stupidity, the gods themselves are helpless.†— Wed, Mar 28th, 2007 @ 2:37 am
All you private medical insurance fans might want to read this horror story:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/26/business/26care.html
“The bottom line is that insurance companies make money when they don’t pay claims,†said Mary Beth Senkewicz, who resigned last year as a senior executive at the National Association of Insurance Commissioners. “They’ll do anything to avoid paying, because if they wait long enough, they know the policyholders will die.â€Â
“Against stupidity, the gods themselves are helpless.â€Â
The deities must be absolutely frantic about Winter.
Comment by Kimmo W. — Thu, Mar 29th, 2007 @ 1:06 pm