Autovero: The ultimate ripoff
@ 2:35 pm Looks like the international news has caught on to Finland’s car tax scheme.
“Buying cars in Germany has become a common practice for Finns who face hefty taxes on vehicles purchased in Finland, which has contributed to the growing number of crossings….â€Â
With Finland’s car tax, used cars in Finland cost nearly double the German price. It’s slightly cheaper to import one yourself, but not much so. For example, bringing a 10,000€ automobile to Finland from Germany will cost you roughly an additional 8,000€ in Autovero. The total price for your 10,000€ automobile will be about 18,000€. I can’t help to think about how much money Finns lose due to this ripoff.
The loss is not just 8,000€ when you consider the Time Value of Money. Let’s say you instead invest that amount in a growth mutual fund that yields 10% per annum. In 25-years, it’ll reach a value of over 85,000€.
But, considering that you’ll probably need to purchase two-used cars within that 25-year timeperiod, you’ll actually lose about 110,000€. Hence, you’ve gotten ripped-off twice; in total, for roughly the cost of a flat!
While the rest of the world knows it’s best to buy cars as cheaply as possible—after all, cars are the worst investments out there—it’s no wonder Finns are among the poorest people in western Europe.
High prices for cars encourage people to use public transportation. This in turn will lessen our need for oil and the impact we have on environment. Of course we could do like americans and get car prices down so everyone could have a hummer.
Comment by saku — Fri, Mar 16th, 2007 @ 3:35 pm
Yeh, what great way for others to control how YOU choose to live out our short lives. Within Finland I have to travel 90 klm. everyday one way…yeh, public transport ? yeh righttt…
You can do it, but dont dare to tell me…or we will be having some big problems. You don’t want to drive a car ? great. I do and I should not be forces to pay higher. But then again Public transport prices are going higher and higher…ahh poetic justice… OHH p.s. I dont turn my car off while I wait at gas stations or when I run into the post…I LOVE my car warm when I get out….mmm I love that greenhouse…green house ? nahhh, just a hype
Comment by riach biacchhh — Fri, Mar 16th, 2007 @ 3:46 pm
God’s own people. “Encourage us to use public transport, lesson our need for oil, save the environment.” Take your head out of the clouds. My work week, which is just about to end, includes a minimum of 1300 km driving or 15 hours min spent at the wheel of my car. Now, you want to try it with public transport? Lesson our need for oil? Maybe if the government would make it more affordable for people to buy new more efficient cars we could actually reduce our oil consumption while driving??? Save the environment? Read the previous point.
Not only would cheaper new cars therefore reduce oil cunsumption but they would help save the world by using recyclable parts and have lower emmisions. As a apin off for the welfare state with its public health system, new cars are also far safer for driver, passenger and pedestrian therefore reducing the risk of high cost care resulting from accidents in old “death boxes” we use as cars. Think of the cost to the state in terms of care and lost production due to accidents, add the environmental benefits and now tell me why cheaper new cars are a bad thing?
Comment by Punter — Fri, Mar 16th, 2007 @ 4:15 pm
Within Finland I have to travel 90 klm. everyday one way
Why live 90 kms from where you work? Thick cunt.
Comment by Anonymous — Fri, Mar 16th, 2007 @ 4:27 pm
“High prices for cars encourage people to use public transportation.”
You mean force people. Not sure what kind of fantasy life you surround yourself in, but public transport is no catch all. It really is a better idea to let people take home their Ikea purchases in their own car and not on the bus. (been there, done that.) And many who commute to work have much longer commutes because they use public transport instead of taking their own car. (Commute by car, 15 minutes. By Metro and bus, 45 minutes.)
Then since you limit access to private transport, you now are forced to run mostly empty busses on odd routes because it is better for the environment.
As for the Hummer, according to this study, it is better for the environment than a Toyota Prius hybrid, if you include the energy it took to build the vehicles!
Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage
http://clubs.ccsu.edu/recorder/editorial/editorial_item.asp?NewsID=188
Comment by Fred Fry — Fri, Mar 16th, 2007 @ 4:56 pm
And this is a news!? In Finland we have this thing called reilu autovero.
For example if you buy BMW 328 1999 130-150.000km from Germany about 10:000e it will cost you to bringing Finland 500-1000e and then the taxes about 6-7000. Total of 16500-18000. And in Finland the price for the same car would be about 20-220000e.
Fuck the Government!
Comment by PePe — Fri, Mar 16th, 2007 @ 5:28 pm
“High prices for cars encourage people to use public transportation.”
Actually, I’ve avoided about 40K in autovero over the years by purchasing cars in Germany while living there.
Thanks to the savings, I could always afford a seutulippu when returning here to Finland. I take Public Transit everyday, whether in Finland, Germany or elsewhere. Much better than driving
Public Transit doesn’t help for going to the Mökki though. And Finland’s Public Transit isn’t the greatest anyway.
Comment by Kristian — Fri, Mar 16th, 2007 @ 5:38 pm
I agree that the tax on cars should be lowered. On the other hand, the fuel tax should be raised.
All oil consuming industrial nations should agree on raising taxes on petroleum. That would lead to lowered demand. The oil producers’ artel OPEC and other producers would have to respond by lowering the asking price of their product to avoid losing revenue.
Opposing the above or even advocating the lowering of gas taxes in European or other oil-importing nations in the name of the free market is totally idiotic. Namely, the international oil market IS NOT FREE. In reality, it is heavily CARTELLIZED. The power of OPEC is on the increase as new oil-producing nations are entering it and as non-OPEC oil-producers are falling relatively behind OPEC in production capacity owing to dwindling resources.
The only ones to benefit from lower gas taxes in the West or Asia are the Russians and the OPEC. Who wants to pump more money into their coffers?
Comment by Markku — Fri, Mar 16th, 2007 @ 5:43 pm
@8 Fuel tax doesnt need to be raised either. A better way is to give tax relief to those purchasing more fuel efficient cars like hybrids and removing the diesel tax, since diesels are more fuel efficient. The majority of Finns seem totally convinced that taxation is the solution to everything.
Instead of enforcing collective punishment, how about rewarding those that do something for the enviroment (it is called positive reinforcement, but I guess that concept is too difficult to undertand in this country)
Comment by uncle sam — Fri, Mar 16th, 2007 @ 5:51 pm
OP
“With Finland’s car tax, used cars in Finland cost nearly double the German price. It’s slightly cheaper to import one yourself, but not much so. For example, bringing a 10,000€ automobile to Finland from Germany will cost you roughly an additional 8,000€ in autovero. The total price for your 10,000€ automobile will be about 18,000€. I can’t help to think about how much MONEY FINNS LOSE due to this ripoff.”
Barking up the wrong tree again Kristian -
Even with this equation Finns still lose more because the orginal purchase (-10,000/car) is made in Germany not because of the vero (+8,000/car) - which is the only way Finns benefit from the individual purchase outside the country.
If the individual who elected to export his hard (Finland) earned Euro to buy a car in Germany, because it saves him personally say 10% overall (without even costing in the additional effort/risk and sundry expenses), instead chose to make his purchase in Finland then Finns gain much more because the domestic economy is supported rather than bleeding away.
If you need to by a car at all buy it in Finland.
Comment by pi — Fri, Mar 16th, 2007 @ 6:39 pm
Punter, “minimum of 1300 km driving or 15 hours min spent at the wheel of my car. ”
get a life and save yourself a lot of time and money, and help the the environment by moving closer to where you choose to work.
Comment by pi — Fri, Mar 16th, 2007 @ 6:45 pm
DH I work where my customers are in order to primarily earn a successful living to provide for my family and unfortunately pay taxes for the likes of you and half of the Finns on this site so don’t tell me to get a life. BTW, it went over 2000km this week. Good week
Comment by Punter — Fri, Mar 16th, 2007 @ 6:55 pm
12. Punter,
At your average speed of near 90kph you also seem to be in quite a hurry - are you running drugs perhaps?
Comment by pi — Fri, Mar 16th, 2007 @ 7:01 pm
Its all about control. They wrap the green “Global warming” scam, and wam, the entire world follows Finland.
Its all about control, and by the way, no Finn can have more Hummers than his neighbor.
Comment by winter — Fri, Mar 16th, 2007 @ 7:03 pm
If using cars is that bad, why not just ban them. Might as well ban mokki too, which would take away an excuse to have a car. Why not ban domestic airplane flights as well. The trains go to more places than planes do. Think of all the good this will bring to the environment. If not, then let the people have the cars and the gas to run them. Both taxes are regressive in that they hurt people more the poorer they are. Car ownership should be a right in a first-world country.
- Do take a look at the link I posted earlier. It takes an American five years of driving to recover the added cost of a prius through savings.
- In the end your car use contributes little to the situation. Have you changed out your light bulbs yet? Why not? Maybe regular bulbs should be taxed higher. Or maybe electricity should be taxed much higher!
Comment by Fred Fry — Fri, Mar 16th, 2007 @ 7:05 pm
None of you anti car people able to answer my simple question? Thought not. BTW, with summer speed limits soon to come into force, the average speed will increase too. Ah, driving music on the Ipod and off we go.
Comment by Punter — Fri, Mar 16th, 2007 @ 7:14 pm
pi: “At your average speed of near 90kph you also seem to be in quite a hurry - are you running drugs perhaps?”
I guess you’re willing to defame anyone whose opinions you don’t like?
Comment by Kristian — Fri, Mar 16th, 2007 @ 7:15 pm
Thanks Kristian but I’ve lived here 14 years now so used to that by now
Comment by Punter — Fri, Mar 16th, 2007 @ 7:19 pm
Can’t wait to get the motorbike out soon to. Now that really is a fun way to waste some petrol. broom broom…..
Comment by Punter — Fri, Mar 16th, 2007 @ 7:20 pm
Phil commented on the Autovero some months ago - and he actually said something that I completely agree with: High car taxes prevent people from buying new and more environmentally friendly cars.
Comment by Mikael — Fri, Mar 16th, 2007 @ 7:24 pm
Punter,
Which of your simple questions are you wanting answered?
The inane - “Now, you want to try it with public transport?”
The unintelligible - “The Lesson our need for oil?”
The nonquestion - “Maybe if the government would make it more affordable for people to buy new more efficient cars we could actually reduce our oil consumption while driving???”
Or the positive statement with a question mark appended - ” Save the environment?”
?
Comment by pi — Fri, Mar 16th, 2007 @ 7:25 pm
“Not only would cheaper new cars therefore reduce oil cunsumption but they would help save the world by using recyclable parts and have lower emmisions. As a apin off for the welfare state with its public health system, new cars are also far safer for driver, passenger and pedestrian therefore reducing the risk of high cost care resulting from accidents in old “death boxes†we use as cars. Think of the cost to the state in terms of care and lost production due to accidents, add the environmental benefits and now tell me why cheaper new cars are a bad thing?”
Make sense?
Comment by Punter — Fri, Mar 16th, 2007 @ 7:42 pm
“Make sense?”
no
Comment by Anonymous — Fri, Mar 16th, 2007 @ 7:58 pm
Further proof of the standard of education here in Finland. Obvious reasons for the benefits of cheaper new cars on the road from the environment to roll effects to our State health care system. I guess thinking outside of your normal level of comfort simply presents too many dificulties for you people.
Comment by Punter — Fri, Mar 16th, 2007 @ 8:01 pm
If atutovero were to be lowered, where would the goverment then get the money to pay for the current services. All of you people demand lower taxes, but you never give any solution on how would the goverment then get the money. If services were stopped by the goverment, you would be the first ones to critize. Nothing seems to be enough for you people, you just have to find something, I never hear anything good coming out of your mouths.
The rant above was meant for all the libertarians in here, americans who believe us is best and other people who do nothing but complain. If you want change, go vote, if you can’t vote, meaning you aren’t finnish citizen and none of this really concerns you, then shut up.
Comment by saku — Fri, Mar 16th, 2007 @ 8:07 pm
“If you want change, go vote, if you can’t vote, meaning you aren’t finnish citizen and none of this really concerns you, then shut up.” - saku
You almost had me, up to this. Where the hell do you get off telling people who are enriching your country via unbelievable taxation merely by offering their services and then buying your unbelievably over-taxed goods to “shut up?”
Sure, they can’t vote, but they have every right to complain as these obscene (at least the 100% car tax) taxes really are uniquely harsh.
I see plenty of Mercedes, BMWs Lotuses and actually Hummers driving all around Helsinki these days (many more than were driven around in 1990 when not even most taxi cabs were Mercedes)… I wonder who is driving those expensive cars? I wonder who is benefiting from the taxation of them?
You go do your civic duty and vote, überFinn. But don’t let me see you bitch about the Iraq war or anything coming from a country other than perfect Finland, “cause you can’t vote there!”
Jesus.
Comment by DAVE THE RAVE — Fri, Mar 16th, 2007 @ 8:19 pm
22.
Yes Punter I see your point, it would be a good thing if you were not charging around the country at high speed in your deathbox old vehicle and endangering lives polluting the environment.
If you had a cheap new car would you slow down, would you drive less, would you show more respect for the environment?
Comment by pi — Fri, Mar 16th, 2007 @ 8:24 pm
Dave, you are no longer in the cave. Welcome out
Your friend C#nter
Comment by Punter — Fri, Mar 16th, 2007 @ 8:25 pm
26.
“I see plenty of Mercedes, BMWs Lotuses and actually Hummers driving all around Helsinki these days”
So Kristina, car prices can’t be soo bad, eh?
Comment by pi — Fri, Mar 16th, 2007 @ 8:27 pm
For the record, I have never in my +/-15 years here owned a car. I was merely defending non-Finns’ right to complain.
Additionally, I in no way support (or ever have) the Iraq war or the Bush crime regime.
Comment by DAVE THE RAVE — Fri, Mar 16th, 2007 @ 8:29 pm
I haven’t raved about irag at all. You americans can as many soldiers in irag as you want, I don’t care. I’ve never said that Finland is perfect, sure we got our share of problems, but I think that we are better off than many of the countries that people in this forum seem to idolize. You didn’t answer my question about how would the goverment fund services then if taxes were lowered. You complain and complain without providing realistic choice, saying lowering taxes is good for Finland isn’t realistic choice when you take into account the lost tax revenues. And you Dave aren’t the only one, lot more people in this forum are quilty of that too.
Comment by saku — Fri, Mar 16th, 2007 @ 8:31 pm
“…no Finn can have more Hummers than his neighbor.”
Noo, that’s Sweden. There it is considered obscene och olagom, if you are one millimeter ahead of the Svenssons. Here they even used to paint the houses yellow, as the yellow paint was more expensive, than the neighbour’s traditional red&white. If they couldn’t quite afford it, only part of the house was painted yellow.
Comment by Antti rn — Fri, Mar 16th, 2007 @ 8:35 pm
I don’t think you understand my friend and in fact I think that goes for many of you. I DON’T WANT THE GOVERNMENT TO PROVIDE ALL OF THESE “THINGS” FOR US. Especially not at the price they seem to charge. Not at all. Get it? It’s not that difficult to understand. I think that we as people should be responsible for our own welfare and not the government. That said, I think the government should stop charging us tax on everything and basically get out of our lives and let us be responsible human beings and fend for ourselves more. That way I won’t be compalaining when the government stops doing what it does today and rather gives me more in my pocket each month to decide want I want to do in the interest of my family and I. Rocket science 101
Comment by Punter — Fri, Mar 16th, 2007 @ 8:40 pm
31. And you can’t admit that a 100 percent tax is basically extortion.
Incidentally, I am more often on the side of the pro-taxers on these pages… I don’t know where you got the idea I “complain and complain.”
As I wrote above, I have never owned a car in Finland due to prohibitive pricing in relation to where I live (in expensive downtownish Helsinki). However, we are not rich and having a car would provide my family with the means to go pick up some furniture once in a while, to be able to improve our lives by being able to go to the hardware store. Instead, I have decided to “make do” with what we have… And you know what? I am sick and tired of making due.
Perhaps you have never lived so far away from relatives / family / close friends that you are all on your own? Well, when you are an expat, you can’t just call “Daddy” to come help out, sometimes “luxuries” are necessary. I know that I have hit a wall recently in that regard.
In order for my family to get a home we would have to move out into the sticks to find a place we could afford and that would probably also involve two cars. Explain to me, how this is feasible/possible when the price of a car is double of what it would cost almost anywhere else on the planet?
The law is what it is… It is prohibitive. Like I said, I can’t see a future here where the government seems set on making life as difficult as possible. Believe me, I am no Libertarian, but then again neither is the Finnish government.
Comment by DAVE THE RAVE — Fri, Mar 16th, 2007 @ 8:41 pm
33.”I think that we as people should be responsible for our own welfare and not the government. That said, I think the government should stop charging us tax on everything and basically get out of our lives and let us be responsible human beings and fend for ourselves more.”
Punter it does sound a little like you enjoy the benefits of living in a society (such as roads to zoom around on) but do not wish to contribute your share.
I sounds like you and your family wish to roll your own roads and other capital intensive infrastructure, educate yourselves, treat all of your own ailments, maintain a fair system of law and order around your cave etc. Or are these some of the things you do not want the government to provide?
Comment by pi — Fri, Mar 16th, 2007 @ 8:57 pm
All I’m asking is that people explain where would we get money for the services then. Punter, aina sitä haluta saa :P.
Comment by saku — Fri, Mar 16th, 2007 @ 8:58 pm
Indeed I do enjoy driving around on roads but if I had to choose between a toll system where you pay as you use for all major new road projects and cheaper taxes associated with motoring or stay as is then it’s a no brainer. I understand taxation and its need in society, just not the level and doubling up of so many taxes in this system when frankly the services are not that great when compared to most modern wester nations in 2007. The days of not questioning government policy and believing everything we’re told should be well behind us, especially in such an “educated country.”
As for Saku, read my point again. Vai onko liian vaikea?
Comment by Punter — Fri, Mar 16th, 2007 @ 9:05 pm
Hey, Kristian managed to make an argument that makes sense! Even the facts seem to be right. Congratulations! The car tax system is a mess. The unfortunate thing for him is that Kristian agrees here with more or less all parties, even if mostly for different reasons. I mean, how embarrassing it must feel to share a policy with all those bloody socialists.
By the way, how cheap is cheap oil in the USA. IIRC the war in Iraq costs something like 300 000 000 dollars each day for the Americans alone. Even Finland pays big money to fix what others broke.
Comment by Anonymous — Fri, Mar 16th, 2007 @ 9:27 pm
Punter, ei oo mutta on liian hapokasta
Comment by saku — Fri, Mar 16th, 2007 @ 9:30 pm
saku: “You didn’t answer my question about how would the goverment fund services then if taxes were lowered. ”
A legitimate point.
I’d say we need to broaden the tax base. Right now our base is limited by what foreign investors can throw our way.
We need people here—even poor ones—to accumulate capital and invest. Then we can tax them on their investment earnings in addition to their income, albeit at lower rates than now.
If we develop more equity, then it’s easier on the welfare system in the long run. And it makes us more competitive internationally.
Currently, government of other countries—lower tax ones in particular—receive tax revenues from the profits we generate as workers here in Finland. In other words, THEY are the ones with the broad tax base.
Another thing… I’m glad we have people here from other countries giving us new ideas. And we give them our ideas too. No country is perfect and isolation helps no one.
Comment by Kristian — Fri, Mar 16th, 2007 @ 9:35 pm
Hey, Kristian managed to make an argument that makes sense! Even the facts seem to be right. Congratulations! The car tax system is a mess. The unfortunate thing for him is that Kristian agrees here with more or less all parties, even if mostly for different reasons. I mean, how embarrassing it must feel to share a policy with all those bloody socialists and environmentalists.
By the way, how cheap is cheap oil in the USA. IIRC the war in Iraq costs something like 300 000 000 dollars each day for the Americans alone. Even Finland pays big money to fix what others broke.
Comment by Anonymous — Fri, Mar 16th, 2007 @ 9:42 pm
“We need people hereâ€â€even poor onesâ€â€to accumulate capital and invest.”
And naturally, that investment can take many forms. Capital stock, bonds…. But we also hope that people will invest in- and operate- business that create jobs. If we structure our tax system optimally here in Finland, then they won’t have to go to eastern Europe.
Comment by Kristian — Fri, Mar 16th, 2007 @ 9:43 pm
1. The car tax should be lowered, because there is no reason to punish people for buying a car.
2. Let the already high fuel tax stay high, no need to raise it since oil is going to get more expensive anyway.
3. Don’t tax at all the new biodiesels etc.
-> This way people get reward for using the ecological fuels, and at the same time they are able to buy newer, less polluting cars.
Comment by Passer-by — Fri, Mar 16th, 2007 @ 10:01 pm
“Let the already high fuel tax stay high, no need to raise it”
It would affect consumer prices and raise our overall cost-of-living even higher than it’s current exorbitant amount. So I don’t think they’ll touch that idea with a (as an American would say) 10-foot pole.
Comment by Kristian — Fri, Mar 16th, 2007 @ 10:13 pm
Basic problem. Finland taxes everything and there is no link to the item taxed and the purpose of the revenue behind the tax.
** We are going to tax cars to punish you for buying the car - Unlike taxing cars to either provide public transport OR provide good road systems.
** We are going to tax public transport for NO.GOOD.REASON (I always thought it odd to tax what is essentially a Government service.)
** We are going to tax alcohol, after we fix the price. (Does alko make more profit from operations or from the alcohol tax. Again, taxing a Government operation.)
Then we are going to charge VAT on the taxes!
Comment by Fred Fry — Fri, Mar 16th, 2007 @ 10:22 pm
Hey, Kristian managed to make an argument that makes sense! Even the facts seem to be right. Congratulations! The car tax system is a mess. The unfortunate thing for him is that Kristian agrees here with more or less all parties, even if mostly for different reasons. I mean, how embarrassing it must feel to share a policy with all those bloody socialists and environmentalists.
By the way, how cheap is cheap oil in the USA. IIRC the war in Iraq costs something like 300 000 000 dollars each day for the Americans alone. Even Finland pays big money to fix what others broke.
Comment by another — Fri, Mar 16th, 2007 @ 10:28 pm
Basic problem. Finland taxes everything and there is no link to the item taxed and the purpose of the revenue behind the tax.
Most of the time there is a very precise and transparent link.
Comment by another — Fri, Mar 16th, 2007 @ 10:35 pm
@43 Yes, you now understand The Finnish Ponzi game.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme
Comment by Kristian — Fri, Mar 16th, 2007 @ 10:37 pm
I agree completely with Fred in #43. Also “Anonymous” has a point when he names someone a thick cunt. It’s Friday after all…
saku, are you for real?
Comment by majava — Fri, Mar 16th, 2007 @ 11:01 pm
Majava, yes I’m for real. Sure taxing is high but I don’t see any other alternative that doesn’t lead to high deficit for the goverment, which isn’t exactly a good thing. Sure lowering taxes might benefit us in the long run but in the short run it might cause Finland to go into massive debt. Since the taxes are so high that its hurting us, how come then it is that we are ranked in the top ten for our economy or school in many studies.
Comment by saku — Fri, Mar 16th, 2007 @ 11:11 pm
“All I’m asking is that people explain where would we get money for the services then.”
By not cutting the income tax again, or cutting it less than planned. Autovero could’ve been removed years ago if the income tax cuts had been smaller.
I’d rather take the option of being able to buy a new, safe, environmentally friendly car for 15-20000EUR (instead of 30000EUR) as opposed to taking a 1-2% income tax cut.
Due to elections there’s been lots of talk about improving the situation of “poor people”. Well, I’m all for that, but how about improving the situation of the comparatively poor middle class, too?
Comment by agd — Fri, Mar 16th, 2007 @ 11:22 pm
first we take care of the poor people since they are the worst off, or are you saying you are starving. Those poor people consider thing luxuries which we consider every day goods. Once the poor people are better off we can move up the ladder.
Comment by saku — Fri, Mar 16th, 2007 @ 11:28 pm
The car tax will drop soon, don’t worry. That doesn’t mean much to the environment, though, because old Finnish cars will then be sold in Russia and other poor neighboring countries and used there probably even more - and for longer - than in Finland.
Comment by another — Fri, Mar 16th, 2007 @ 11:30 pm
“Sure taxing is high but I don’t see any other alternative that doesn’t lead to high deficit for the goverment, which isn’t exactly a good thing.”
Actually justified tax cuts (those that boost the economy) can often result in higher tax revenue, so chances are that services wouldn’t have to be cut.
Also, who says that our tax money has to pay for things like daycare, opera, sports, fancy independence day parties, etc.? There’s a lot we could cut. I know that you don’t want to do that, but that doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t do it. You don’t have it all figured out, kid.
Comment by Nirva — Fri, Mar 16th, 2007 @ 11:39 pm
Why shouldn’t taxes pay for daycare. Independent day parties one thing we could cut, but I don’t see that happening very soon.
Comment by saku — Fri, Mar 16th, 2007 @ 11:53 pm
€200 a month for my 4yo to attend day care doesn’t sound like taxes doing much to me. Oh sorry, it’s my taxes making sure the poor that sit home all day have free day care for their kids. Now I’ve got.
Comment by Punter — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 12:13 am
Let’s say that all of a sudden your home finances fall apart. Your luck changes and all of a sudden you find yourself counting pennies. Now do you simply keep spending and hope that one day it will all balance or instead do you tighten your belt and cut back on expenditure? As we saw in the good old USSR, they had a wonderful way of dealing with an ever increasing shortage of money, print more! That is basically what the government here is doing by cutting back on one tax, lets say income tax, and simply increasing others. It doesn’t work. Real tax relief combined with a cut in expenditure is the only way to develop. Allow private enterprise the chance to take over certain services and also give the citizens more of a chance to decide what they wish to use and pay for themselves. By doing this, the government will run a tighter ship, costs will drop, our economy will be more open and people like us that annoy you all will no longer have anything to complain about. In the end, those of you needing BASIC welfare will not be on the street but may see the benefit of a modern free market economy and join the ride. We would hope so and welcome you along anyway. Time for my beauty sleep so good night folks.
Comment by Punter — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 12:28 am
Punter:
“€200 a month for my 4yo to attend day care doesn’t sound like taxes doing much to me. Oh sorry, it’s my taxes making sure the poor that sit home all day have free day care for their kids. Now I’ve got.”
€200 a month is much less than the MARKET would charge you. Much less. just ask anyone in England e.g.
Comment by Thomas — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 12:29 am
You just don’t get it. I’m aware of what the market charges for day care and more than happy to pay it. Just such relatively high costs COMBINED with ridiculously high taxes everywhere means we’re getting screwed twice. It has to be one or the other, not both ALL THE TIME. That’s really all I’m asking for. Give me the market and low tax or high tax and a lower cost on these so called “free services.” Too much to ask for?
Now, good night.
Comment by Punter — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 12:34 am
“Why shouldn’t taxes pay for daycare.”
Because lazy people who are already not working are dropping/dumping their children in daycare so that they can avoid being a parent as well.
Don’t tell me that it does not happen. My mother in law is the recipient and to tell the truth, the children are better off. But that is not what it was intended for. Anyway, you have the children, how about taking the time to raise them. Maybe if one parent of each family is encouraged to stay home, then perhaps more people would be employed. But if it is free or nearly so, there is no cost to just drop your child off each day.
Sure tax income and property, even sales. But tax everything? Come on. It must cost a fortune to administer all those tax schemes and with everyone a certain percentage is lost because of people working around the system. Cars from Germany, alcohol from Estonia. Cigarettes from….
Comment by Fred Fry — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 1:21 am
Kristian:
“The loss is not just 8,000€ when you consider the Time Value of money. Let’s say you instead invest that amount in a growth mutual fund that yields 10% per annum. In 25-years, it’ll reach a value of over 85,000€.”
What a surprise that the “honourable” guest-blogger would bring this subject up. It’s not like it’s the first time.
Show me one “growth mutual fund” that guarantees 10% per annum over 25 yers. Get a fucking life will you.
And show me one person who drives 25 years using two cars. OK, somebody else except you. What the car industry strives for is a turn-around time of three years. That’s what their target customer looks like. Changes cars every three years. Look at warranties, service agreements, whatever. I can tell you that a good friend of mine previously in the car financing business told me exactly this.
Is this ecologically sustainable? Is it possible without a second hand market, and does the fact that Germany is a big car producer perhaps introduce a manufactured need for fast turn-around times? In your world no. In REALITY yes.
And cars have a second hand value. There is no evidence that cars depreciate in price faster in Finland than in Germany. It seems to be quite the contrary given your “out of the hat” price quotes. A car simply has a longer life-cycle in Finland.
And why is that bad? If the car-tax causes this longer life-cycle, why is that bad? Do you have any idea what is the ecologically right turn-around time for a 20000e car? 3 years, 5 years, 10 years? And who should decide it? Auto manufactereurs? This whole scheme is allowing them to build cars costing 20000e that don’t last 10 years. Are we really going to be in the hands of these kind of crooks?
“But, considering that you’ll probably need to purchase two-used cars within that 25-year timeperiod, you’ll actually lose about 110,000€. Hence, you’ve gotten ripped-off twice; in total, for roughly the cost of a flat.”
This is hilarious. You and winter should start an investment bank together. You sure are two tycoons aren’t you.
This effect - given your absurd initial assumption - could be calculated for ANY tax cost. Income tax, VAT, whatever. In the end everybody would be billioneers.
But it doesn’t quite work that way does it. The tax money somehow pours back into the economy. It’s not like the government simply STEALS it and then somehow destroys it, making it unusable. If you’re so naive that you really think this, then you’re beyond help.
Comment by Thomas — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 1:44 am
Punter:
“Just such relatively high costs COMBINED with ridiculously high taxes everywhere means we’re getting screwed twice.”
So if you pay “ridiculously high taxes” and then ridicuolously low day-care prices, you get screwed twice. No wonder I don’t understand the libertarian logic. The problem is, there is no fucking logic.
Comment by Thomas — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 1:49 am
Fred Fry:
“Basic problem. Finland taxes everything and there is no link to the item taxed and the purpose of the revenue behind the tax.”
Is the REALLY any need for taxation to be that tightly ear-marked? Do you know exactly which of your dollars are used to kill Iraqs (assuming you’re in the US)? Didn’t think so.
“** We are going to tax cars to punish you for buying the car - Unlike taxing cars to either provide public transport OR provide good road systems.
** We are going to tax public transport for NO.GOOD.REASON (I always thought it odd to tax what is essentially a Government service.)
** We are going to tax alcohol, after we fix the price. (Does alko make more profit from operations or from the alcohol tax. Again, taxing a Government operation.)
Then we are going to charge VAT on the taxes! ”
Who cares? If you work in a private company that produces goods for the private market, then your salary money will have been taxed and double taxed, and triple-taxed, …
What is this stupid fascination about double-taxation? Happens under any taxation scheme - afaik. Taxed money will be used for aqcuiring goods/services that are taxed - directly or inderectly. Like it or not. It’s just a result of the fact that money “moves about”. And that is the idea of money. The faster the turnaround time, the more gets taxed.
Comment by Thomas — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 2:13 am
Fred Fry:
“Because lazy people who are already not working are dropping/dumping their children in daycare so that they can avoid being a parent as well.”
It’s funny that your kind always seem to be able to turn it around to this. What’s important is not, whether a certain service works and provides a good service to the community. The important thing is whether somebody might misuse the service, and waste your precious DOLLARS. The truth is not important, NO, rather dreamt up schemes of “how one could misuse his hand-out for PERSONAL GAIN”. There will always be freeriders. Most of the so called “MARKET” is made up of them. But I think it’s still better not to judge everybody just based on one example.
“My mother in law is the recipient and to tell the truth, the children are better off.”
Your mother in law is the recipient of WHAT, and WHY are the children better off?
Comment by Thomas — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 2:24 am
Fred -
So the co2 emissions from producing a hybrid car would be paid off in five years? I think that’s a very good deal then. If I buy a car, I plan to drive it at least 20 years if possible.
As Thomas pointed out in an older thread, producing new cars isn’t environmentally sound even if they have better mileage. And maintaining the culture of buying a new car every five years (or less?) is something that shouldn’t be supported.
Comment by Pave — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 2:52 am
Pave: “And maintaining the culture of buying a new car every five years (or less?) is something that shouldn’t be supported.”
Ok, so why is the autovero on new cars so much less than on used ones?
I think Fred said it best:
“Finland taxes everything and there is no link to the item taxed and the purpose of the revenue behind the tax.”
It couldn’t be more true.
Comment by Kristian — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 4:09 am
People drive cars in Finland because few can afford to live in places near their workplace and public transportation is hard enough even when you live in downtown and commute elsewhere in downtown, but when you live out in bumfuckmäki and have to hoof it to nowheremäki it’s downright impossible…not to mention the 2 months in summer where if you wind up working you’ll be sitting for ages if you miss the occasional bus. Plus, if you work an 8+ hour workday, who wants to add 2-3 hours more just in commuting? Those commuter passes ain’t cheap, either.
I bought a 2000 Volvo wagon, used and in immaculate condition for under $10k when I moved back to the US. Even in taxachusetts my tax on the purchase was around $500. It’s a Volvo so I expect to be driving it until it turns to rust which, if my ‘84 wagon which I drove for 16+ years is any guage, will be a long time from now.
I suppose it would be interesting to see more accountibility in taxation and where and how the money is spent (like the 60,000 euro ice sculpture in sumertime ( http://www.flickr.com/photos/hfb/31411151/ )), but it creeps me out when people seem so eager to pay 40-60% of their earnings in taxes and berate those who might try to get a better deal elsewhere. It reminds me of the cranky old ladies at the grocery who would berate me for buying the gorgeous cheap Spanish strawberries instead of the puny, molding and overpriced Finnish ones…..perhaps it is something in the water supply.
Comment by hfb — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 7:18 am
Oh, and Fred, the ciggies come from Russia and Estonia, too. Just hang around the market or the Alexander theatre on the end of Bulevardi and look for the Russian ladies to offer you cheap smokes. It never ceased to amuse me that the government talked a lot about these cig smugglers and how they were hard to find when they peddle their wares daily right in front of the Maistratti without making any effort to really conceal the transactions.
Comment by hfb — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 7:27 am
perhaps it is something in the water supply.
Finns are one of the “happiest” (most content) people on earth, on average that is. One of the reasons is this: take away 10 euros from a well-to-do person and she hardly notices it. Now give this 10 euros to a really poor person and she’ll be really happy. In other words, a happy society taxes the relatively “rich” and gives the money (or a service worth the money) to the relatively poor.
Of course there are limits on how much the rich can be taxed without them becoming too discontent. In the USA the limit is very low, probably because people are so stupid - not inherently but because the standard of schools is so catastrophically low - that they don’t understand this logic. In Finland the limit is high but I bet you’re not capable of understanding why because you’re a product of that schooling system.
But if you, hfb, with your racist ideas went away for good, that would make us even happier
Comment by another — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 7:44 am
“But if you, hfb, with your racist ideas went away for good, that would make us even happier ;-)”
-another
Perhaps you need to consult a dictionary about what ‘racist’ means. Here’s a hint: it is not an epithet that deflects reasonable arguments.
Comment by RAVE THE DAVE — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 9:05 am
Of course it’s reasonable to lessen these insane purchase taxes and direct taxation to actual usage. Gas should be very, very expensive, the more expensive the better. Probably the only good thing coming from this stubbornly planned Bush junta attack to Iran is that the oil price would probably skyrocket…
Comment by mjr — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 10:03 am
Ps. Punter, you have made me believe in re-incarnation - the glorious spirit of Finnpundit is again with us. Along with his unmatched intelligence and respect of empirical facts. Hurray.
Comment by mjr — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 10:05 am
Perhaps you need to consult a dictionary about what ‘racist’ means.
Perhaps you need to consult the archive of this blog in order to know about hfb’s “reasonable arguments”.
Comment by another — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 10:26 am
“Perhaps you need to consult the archive of this blog in order to know about hfb’s “reasonable argumentsâ€Â.” - another
So now you’ve derailed the conversation twice in two posts. What does hfb’s other comments have to do with this one?
That’s right. Nothing.
Comment by DAVE THE RAVE — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 10:44 am
“Of course it’s reasonable to lessen these insane purchase taxes and direct taxation to actual usage. Gas should be very, very expensive, the more expensive the better. Probably the only good thing coming from this stubbornly planned Bush junta attack to Iran is that the oil price would probably skyrocket…” -mjr
Renewed excessive taxation of gasoline would only hurt the huddled masses, per usual.
Here’s a suggestion:
Maybe a taxation of how much one drives would be better? Just like income tax declaration, one would submit how many kilometers at the end of the year and pay accordingly. The people who drive most (hence do the most damage to roads, environment and infrastructure) would pay the most. Those who need the car for occasional convenience and only drive occasionally and for short distances would pay less.
There could be some kind of electric monitor installed in cars that sends this mileage info to the tax office.
People would be encouraged to perhaps use public transport more often if they knew that in the long run, unnecessary trips would cost them.
As for the Bush thing:
As we saw after Katrina when the gas prices went through the roof across the globe, only the oil companies benefitted. People used just as much gas (if not more) and the oil companies made profits like never before. The price of gas will not deter those who think they can afford it. So I don’t think Bush should receive any credit for that (or anything actually).
Comment by DAVE THE RAVE — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 10:53 am
People drive cars in Finland because few can afford to live in places near their workplace and public transportation is hard enough even when you live in downtown and commute elsewhere in downtown,
Of course you are talking about Helsinki, which is ridiculously overpriced compared to the rest of the country. (Then again, if you’re one of those “There’s no life outside Kehä III -people”, I’m probably wasting my breath)
I could afford to live smack in the middle of downtown Turku just fine as a student, and public transportation was not difficult at all. Neither is it in Helsinki, where I live now. Of course, most of the so-called difficulties people experience with these types of things tend to stem from their own attitudes and hang-ups.
I also bike in downtown Helsinki and Turku quite frequently, which must be a total shocker for a lot of people. It is to the fat-ass businessmen who walk on bike paths talking into their cell phone after having gotten out of their BMW. My bell-ringing has caused quite a few heart attacks. No mercy for the stupid.
Comment by Anzi — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 11:02 am
Well, this is just one of those things that will have to happen. And which will happen anyway. Oil will run out, very soon we’ll be in peak oil territory. So the sooner we’ll start adapting the better. Yeah, oil companies are basically sabotaging all sensible initiatives, and will benefit on the short term, but we need to start action now, immediately, to stop this insane oil addiction. It will be painful but it must be done. And believe me, it will be painful, even more painful, if we try to postpone the inevitable.
Comment by mjr — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 11:02 am
What does hfb’s other comments have to do with this one?
Ah, so you want to know what hfb’s opinions have to do with hfb’s opinions. A very clever question indeed. Anyway, if you want to take seriously somebody who thinks that about every Finn is likely to be not only a drunk but a violent drunk, that you can’t give birth in Finland because the doctors and nurses may disappear all of a sudden to get drunk in the middle of the operation, that Finnish fashion consists of urine soaked pants and so no and on, be my guest. I just thought that its just fair to warn about her racist ideas before somebody takes her seriously.
Comment by another — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 11:15 am
“every Finn is likely to be not only a drunk but a violent drunk, that you can’t give birth in Finland because the doctors and nurses may disappear all of a sudden to get drunk in the middle of the operation, that Finnish fashion consists of urine soaked pants…” - another
Ah, so embellishing, twisting and exaggerating hfb’s past comments that have absolutely nothing to do with the price of autos or petrol is your way of progress?
I would take Richard Pryor’s opinions about Finland more seriously than yours. And he’s a dead comedian.
Comment by DAVE THE RAVE — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 11:42 am
Stop raving, you silly boy.
Comment by another — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 11:51 am
Stop dicking around.
Comment by DAVE THE RAVE — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 11:54 am
“It reminds me of the cranky old ladies at the grocery who would berate me for buying the gorgeous cheap Spanish strawberries instead of the puny, molding and overpriced Finnish ones…..perhaps it is something in the water supply.”
Silly you.
The Spanish steroid-strawberries are devoid of any taste. Finnish strawberries actually taste like the berry is supposed to taste, probably because they haven’t been pumped full with all those nasty chemicals.
The ladies were just trying to help you. Sadly you were too full of that self-conceited arrogance of yours to take heed.
Comment by Ã…boy — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 12:28 pm
“If using cars is that bad, why not just ban them. Might as well ban mokki too, which would take away an excuse to have a car. Why not ban domestic airplane flights as well. The trains go to more places than planes do. Think of all the good this will bring to the environment. If not, then let the people have the cars and the gas to run them. Both taxes are regressive in that they hurt people more the poorer they are. Car ownership should be a right in a first-world country.”
You utterly missed the point. The point is to form an oil importers’ cartel to match the oil producers’ cartel.
Comment by Markku — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 12:34 pm
“The Spanish steroid-strawberries are devoid of any taste. Finnish strawberries actually taste like the berry is supposed to taste, probably because they haven’t been pumped full with all those nasty chemicals.” - Ã…boy
Taste is relative and subjective. You cannot scold someone for preferring the flavor of one berry over another (or I suppose in Finland you can and are expected to). As for the “chemicals” injected into imported fruits, aren’t there EU guidelines regulating all of the EU? I was unaware that Finland was better than the rest of the EU. If Finnish berries are not filled with chemicals, then why, please inform me, why oh why isn’t LUOMO (organic) written next to the Finnish flag on those overpriced, oftentimes soggy fruits?
Because unless they are listed as organic, they arent any more “organic” than other fruits that are allowed to be sold here.
You can believe the marketing campaigns, you can like your Finnish berries for all I care, but don’t tell me what I should like.
Comment by DAVE THE RAVE — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 12:48 pm
“that you can’t give birth in Finland because the doctors and nurses may disappear all of a sudden to get drunk in the middle of the operation”
That actually did happen to us, but not because they were going to get drunk. It was a result of the chronic understaffing in the Finnish healthcare system.(which is a result of the 3rd world like wages)
Comment by Unit — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 12:51 pm
another: “Anyway, if you want to take seriously somebody who thinks that about every Finn is likely to be not only a drunk but a violent drunk, that you can’t give birth in Finland because the doctors and nurses may disappear all of a sudden to get drunk in the middle of the operation, that Finnish fashion consists of urine soaked pants and so no and on, be my guest. I just thought that its just fair to warn about her racist ideas before somebody takes her seriously.”
I don’t think that’s a fair characterization of hfb…a funny one perhaps
—but not a fair one.
Comment by Kristian — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 1:06 pm
Now they even propose the humble Finnish strawberry is so much better, not to mention the tomatoes and cucumber and potatoes and….. The first sign of an overly powerful centralized State sysytem is the brainwashing of it’s citizens into believing everything they’re told without question. Ring a bell anyone?
As for mjr’s “the oil is almost out”, far from it my friend. What with all that formerly unaccessable Soviet oil now in the hands of money loving capitalists, I forecast a return to cheap oil days sooner rather than later.
Comment by Punter — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 1:13 pm
“As for mjr’s “the oil is almost outâ€Â, far from it my friend. What with all that formerly unaccessable Soviet oil now in the hands of money loving capitalists, I forecast a return to cheap oil days sooner rather than later. ” - Punter
Why do you always screw up a reasonable comment with a completely ridiculous one? Oil is killing the planet. If you think that the oil companies are going to reduce prices out of concern for oil thirsty cretins like yourself (apparently), then you are out of your mind.
The fruit and veg thing was quite spot on, though. Shoulda stopped there.
Comment by DAVE THE RAVE — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 1:31 pm
Punter, one wonders what you think of evolution? Are you also a theocon, perhaps ID or primitive Creationism? It is not easy to estimate peak oil starting point, it certainly has not arrived yet, but it is a geological, not liberal or social democratic, fact that oil will run out fairly soon. Considering all the other aspects of the case it is simply sensible to take quick steps to end our addiction in a controlled way before we have to go cold turkey in a very chaotic and disruptive conditions. There is nothing particularly ideological in this unless you think that it is ideological to say that the market place will think that the next quarter is always more important than the next century, so someone else should take the responsibility for more long term preparations.
Btw, hfb surely is no racist - though she once did argue that national statistics are not fair for the USA because they take into account all those black and brown people. I kid you not, but that’s far removed from racism, though not from utter silliness.
Comment by mjr — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 2:22 pm
“she once did argue that national statistics are not fair for the USA because they take into account all those black and brown people.”
Actually, I might have been the one who said that
Seriously though, I do believe it’s a valid point. You can’t compare the aftereffects from 400-years of American slavery—not to mention the ensuing discrimination that only ended about 2-decades ago—with anything we have here in Finland. Not to mention the proportionate size differences. Our Mogadishu Avenue doesn’t compare. Then there are the huge number of recent Mexican farm-labor immigrants……
Anyway, didn’t mean to derail, but I’ve read that oil is not running out anytime soon—we’ve got about 150-years left. Unfortunately this prediction will keep new, more environmentally friendly technologies from emerging.
Nevertheless, the automobile problem is something for the World to solve as a whole. You can’t start by punishing one of its weakest, most sparsely populated nations—i.e. Finland. Clearly, our main goal is survival first.
Comment by Kristian — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 2:44 pm
hfb surely is no racist
It’s possible that she doesn’t realize that she is, I give you that. But labelling any “race” the way she has labeled Finns would be immediately regarded as racist by anybody, probably even by herself. Now, it’s possible that she things that we are violent drunks and what not because of our culture. In that case she’s not strictly speaking a racist. Then again it’s possible that she thinks we’re violent drunks because of genetic reasons. Who knows …
But enough about this depressing lady. Punter makes sweeping generalizations, too, but as far as I can tell he just thinks the system is hopeless not - necessarily? - the people. That’s a perfectly healthy attitude, well, at least argumentatively while perhaps not healthwise.
Comment by another — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 2:49 pm
Ã…boy - “The Spanish steroid-strawberries are devoid of any taste. Finnish strawberries actually taste like the berry is supposed to taste, probably because they haven’t been pumped full with all those nasty chemicals.”
Now that’s funny….Finland has plenty of nasty chemicals even not including all the paper mills being exported to the third world. I know the propaganda machine tells everyone the food in Finland is purest, etc., but after driving around Finland and seeing the deforestation and the smokestacks I’m not convinced any food is pure.
And…Another. Given that I’ve not seen a single violent, pooping, pissing or passing out in the street drunk since I left the so-called happiest nation in the EU, another baseless claim that mere observation doesn’t support, Of course, if I did see any I could just drive over them in my Volvo now instead of having to plot an evasive course on foot. I’m willing to stand behind the idea that it is cultural. Maybe it’s genetic, too. Of course, the government would rather have you believe that drinking is only caused by the mistake of lowering the alcohol tax. I’m pretty sure that this is also a commonly held opinion in Finland by Finns given the reaction of disbelief the midwife had when my husband answered the drinking question with ‘infrequently’. She turned to me, smiled and said I got myself a rare ‘good one.’ If Finland is such a happy, smart population base, why do you need warning labels on the alcohol bottles?
And props to Dave the Rave for making me giggle at the Richard Pryor comment.
Comment by hfb — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 3:40 pm
- Actualy. It takes five years of savings from driving a hybrid to save enough to compensate for the added cost of buying a hybrid. Also, your hybrid won’t last 20 years. You are lucky if you get 10 years out of it. Keep in mind that they car has two power systems in it, and that much more can go wrong with it.
- When I was first at HKKK the busses from Russia were nearby. Half of them were selling vodka. Pretty funny watching Finns and Russians make deals.
Comment by Fred Fry — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 3:47 pm
Another tax that slows the conversion to renewable energy; the energy tax itself. Power is taxed at the point that it is generated. So if you go and power your house with wind-power, you still owe the Government for the energy you produced, even if you are not connected to the national power grid.
Comment by Fred Fry — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 3:51 pm
“I left the so-called happiest nation in the EU, another baseless claim that mere observation doesn’t support.”
Shhhhhhhh!
Quiet, you’ll ruin everything if you tell us it’s not true. Isolation is Finland’s secret to happiness, ya know.
Sort of reminds me of the Allegory of the Cave (Republic by Plato). The guy was chained in a cave all his life; any concept of happiness, contentment, sadness, etc. was limited to the environment within those surrounding walls, including the shadows that appeared thereon.
Upon being freed, he just couldn’t believe the wonders of the world outside. Perhaps reminiscent of what Finnish expats experience
Comment by Kristian — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 4:00 pm
hfb, you sort of held back a bit didn’t you? But thanks for proving my point anyway. And it’s perfectly in line with your racist attitude that you can’t accept that “those uncultured, stupid, racist and violent drunks” could actually feel pretty content with their lives - much more so than the Americans by the way - so the polls are, have to be wrong. “Of course I know better than these brainwashed idiots how they feel deep down!”
But hey, you haven’t lost your ability to invent anecdotes. How convenient that you happened to consult this particular - and strangely unprofessional - midwife who thought that about all Finnish men are drunks! Well perhaps _she_ was drunk … What’s next? Did your pool boy tell an hour ago how he just was here and saw just miserable, unhappy people?
By the way, your child is apparently going to be half Finnish. What a depressing thought, don’t you think. Then again with your superior American genes thrown in, probably he’s gonna be just a half drunkard
Comment by another — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 4:07 pm
Quiet, you’ll ruin everything if you tell them it’s not true.
Here’s another nut case who thinks that all those international “happiness polls” are forged by Finnish authorities. I’m beginning to suspect that the number of idiot Finns is indeed alarmingly high …
Comment by another — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 4:14 pm
Upon being freed, he just couldn’t believe the wonders of the world outside. Perhaps reminiscent of what Finnish expats experience
Oh, thank you for these words of wisdom, you great philosopher! It’s an privilege to hear from somebody who has been abroad. I mean, abroad! Sounds almost to good to be true for a little commoner like me who just once has been to Pori and thought it was a world-class city.
By the way, you’re a joke, man.
Comment by another — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 4:26 pm
another—Judging by your emotion-fueled tendency to rely on personal insults, can I assume that you are one of the few Finns who supplied negative responses on the “Happiness Survey.”
It would conflict with any brainwashing theories of course…..
Comment by Kristian — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 4:52 pm
hfb is absolutely right we are drunk even on TV
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXu65NYmA-k
Remontti-Reiska has had a few too many drinks.
Seriously hfb anecdotal evidence is no evidence, or do you accept that yanks are murderers and torturers. USA is a culture of murder, do you accept this statment as it’s as valid as is yours.
Comment by Anonymous — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 4:58 pm
“Seriously hfb anecdotal evidence is no evidence, or do you accept that yanks are murderers and torturers.”
Well, to a certain extent it’s true; America has quite a few murders committed each year. And, as a nation, it does torture people. But obviously we can’t apply that trait to each individual American. There are probably just as many who think it’s a bad quality as those who think it’s good.
Regarding drunken behavior, I don’t think it’s so horrible. As long as it’s not destructive or harmful to others, I don’t mind. But I guess hfb doesn’t see it that way. One thing is for sure: I rather enjoy her stories about it
Comment by Kristian — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 5:08 pm
92. Kristina of Espoo
“Upon being freed, he just couldn’t believe the wonders of the world outside. Perhaps reminiscent of what Finnish expats experience”
Yes there are utterly unbelievable, profoundly wrong, unsustainable and inequitable things to be found in the outside world. While there are still problems within by so many measures Finns have much they can be thankfull for and satisfied with.
Comment by pi — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 5:13 pm
Judging by your emotion-fueled tendency to rely on personal insults
And you didn’t insult me by telling that I’m a brainwashed idiot who couldn’t tell whether he was happy or not because he’s never been abroad? Give me a break. You’re so full of yourself that you that you really think that you are far superior to all other Finns. Otherwise you wouldn’t write like you do. And do you really think that hfb didn’t insult me by suggesting that I and my kids might be inherently violent drunks and what not?
By the way, I’m not. How strange … But surely _you_ must be, otherwise that would be beyond any likelihood, don’t you think? Surely you must be one of those public poopsters hfb so fondly writes about.
And I’m not “emotionally fueled” or insulting. I just like to play around with people who are full of shit.
(See, the smiley means that it’s all ok, no hard feelings, just having a bit fun, just like you do.)
Comment by another — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 5:21 pm
Well, I’ve lived a very big part of my life abroad and have chosen to spend the rest of it in Finland. I have experienced the joys of Central Europe and the United States, even Sweden, to a full extent and still choose Finland.
I guess I’m just a big frigging weirdo. Then again, back in school I was one of those annoying kids who happily hung out in the so-called “unpopular” crowd and thought that the so-called “popular” kids were a bunch of boring dumbasses. I still think so, BTW.
hfb, were you a cheerleader in high school by any chance?
Comment by Anzi — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 5:40 pm
Given that I’ve not seen a single violent, pooping, pissing or passing out in the street drunk since I left the so-called happiest nation in the EU, another baseless claim that mere observation doesn’t support, Of course, if I did see any I could just drive over them in my Volvo now instead of having to plot an evasive course on foot.
I know. The horror of having to walk around with the commoners! At least a good old Volvo is safe enough (if you believe the Swedish propaganda) to provide you an armour against all of those other people that think they’re at the same level with you.
Seriously, after having spent time in the Paris metro and having talked to my friends who have lived in cities like London and Kuala Lumpur, these stories about the overwhelming dirtyness of Helsinki just make me laugh.
Comment by Anzi — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 5:48 pm
“And you didn’t insult me by telling that I’m a brainwashed idiot…?”
I did? You know, there’s a difference between making general comments about a society and using personal insults. You can be sure that comments I make are of the general nature, not personal.
Comment by Kristian — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 5:48 pm
You know, there’s a difference between making general comments about a society and using personal insults.
Please reread how you responded to what I wrote. Unless you still can’t see how you made fun of me - well, let’s try to be civil - you’re not exactly on the smarter side.
Comment by another — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 6:00 pm
Anyone who says that cities in Finland are not frequented by winos is a liar. They attack you in the metro, they yell at you on the tram, they don’t ride the buses because then they’d have to buy tickets. They piss on monuments, they get escorted out of Alko stores and often make a nusiance of themselves otherwise, too.
Either you are blind or you are liars. Let’s hope for the former.
Comment by DAVE THE RAVE — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 6:06 pm
Yeah, Finns don’t have a problem with alcohol…
An estimated 6% of expectant mothers have a substance abuse problem, according to the Finnish Medical Journal. Women who abuse drugs and alcohol give birth to around 3600 children a year.
The article in the latest edition of Suomen Lääkärilehti (The Finnish Medical Journal) points to significant benefits from treatment for substance abuse among expectant mothers at special polyclinics. However, the authors argue that if the mother does not recover from substance abuse during her pregnancy, social welfare officials should help the child by taking it into protective care as soon as it is born.
http://www.yle.fi/news/left/id55787.html
Comment by DAVE THE RAVE — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 6:14 pm
I see from the last comments that the discussion has turned into a personal matter and I won’t bother to read through all comments so far and see if anyone has suggested what I’m going to suggest now:
I’m sticking to the idea that high car-taxes forces people, especially poor people, to drive around in old cars that consume more gasoline per day than a new car does per week (okay, a small exaggeration but still…)- not very economical and definitely not very environmentally friendly. So why not make cars that consume less than say 6L/100km extremely low tax cars and then raise the taxes a couple of percentage per liter/100km that the car consumes. That will make the environmentally friendly cars something of a bargain for most people and those who necessarily must drive around in big SUVs pay more, both for the car and in general taxes, and we could also say that the high taxes on big cars come from the fact that their mass is poses a greater danger towards fellow road-users and pedestrians.
Comment by Mikael — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 6:16 pm
105.
“#
Anyone who says that cities in Finland are not frequented by winos is a liar.”
It’s not really a phenomenon unique to Finnish cities, take winos & junkies in US, UK & German, cities, ice skaters or petrol sniffers in Mexican, Australian or South African cities and so on….
Comment by pi — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 6:24 pm
Anyone who says that cities in Finland are not frequented by winos is a liar.
I never said that. All I’ve ever said is that anyone who says that winos/other people acting in a disorderly fashion on the street is a strictly Finnish phenomenon is blind, stupid, or living on another planet. Or all of the above. Take your pick.
I hate winos and drunkards and drug-addicts with the fire of a thousand suns. But this being a strictly Finnish thing? Please, are you trying to kill me with laughter?
Comment by Anzi — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 6:29 pm
Okay boys and girls and especially you, Kristian:
There’s a small piece about Finnish economy (with appropriate OECD stats, naturally) on our modest attempt at a weblog, Global Economy Matters, available here, and accompanied with an article on history and politics here.
As for my own blog, the election climax has been actively covered by my guest blogger Ari (aka a lamb with no guiding light).
Comment by Aapo — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 6:42 pm
Heh, wasn’t there this letter to the editor in HS few days ago, where some professor praised how low the social barriers are in Helsinki with nightshelter for alcoholics in Eira and some rich neighbourhood in eastern Helsinki. Perhaps they hide the bums better in other cities.
Comment by Antti rn — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 6:54 pm
So hfb is it okay for me to say that you are a product of the culture of murderers? Still waiting for the answer.
BTW it must be hard for your husband and daughter to live with you what with them being the products of culture of drunks and street poopers and their wife/mother despising them and their origins.
Comment by Anonymous — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 7:05 pm
#107
That is actually a pretty good idea and one which I think could work as well. Although many BMW fans out there might object as it’s all about winning the start in red lights
And in addition (I myself drive a peugeot 106, 1996, which spends about 6l/100km) the cars that spend a little less tend to be smaller and hence easier to find parking place for
Comment by Kez0nat0r — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 7:08 pm
To 112.:
If hfb is the product of the culture of murderers then you are the product of generations of insane, alcoholic, emotionally-deprivated, sport suit wearing, dentally challenged, vegetable-xenophobic, salmiak sucking, self-loathing, country-bumpkin-redneck, street pooping, metro-riding-axe-wielding-psychopaths.
Comment by DAVE THE RAVE — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 7:15 pm
“”"Within Finland I have to travel 90 klm. everyday one way
Why live 90 kms from where you work? Thick cunt.
Comment by Anonymous  Fri, Mar 16th, 2007 @ 4:27 pm “”"”
Times like this its better post and stay anonymous for fear of a physical beating
name calling ? yeh, I would stay anonymous also ? thick cunt ? I am what I eat.. yeh,,,better to stay anonymous, its called safety 
Comment by Born there — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 7:23 pm
Yes I choose to use as much possible gas as I can afford,,I love freedom to drive anywhere I choose…
And yes, I use my car to got 1 kilometer or even half a kilometer…its called “love of driving”. And actually I have nothing better to spend my money on, I have all I need. I make a good income. So I drive everywhere I choose… green house ? PLEASE, its all a BS hype. oh, and I will drive as long as I physically can.100 meters or 1000 kilometers..I LOVE FREEDOM !
and I let the car Idle,,,all the time,,at gas stations waiting at post, everywhere..I love to get into a warm car.
LIFE IS SHORT AND GREAT, YOU DON’T LIKE MY GAS CONSUMPTION ? TO BAD…HAHAHAH
Comment by Born there — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 7:30 pm
“Unless you still can’t see how you made fun of me - well, let’s try to be civil….”
In post #96, I merely speculated that your own happiness contrasts with results from the “Happiness Survey.” And I did not say that you are brainwashed. You’ll see in ¤96 that it’s the direct opposite.
And all of this was in response to…. “By the way, you’re a joke, man.” and “Here’s another nut case….”
Anything that I wrote before was not directed at you personally. But maybe I wrote it in a way that you felt personally offended? It wasn’t my intention.
Comment by Kristian — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 7:31 pm
Mikael: “I’m sticking to the idea that high car-taxes forces people, especially poor people, to drive around in old cars that consume more gasoline per day than a new car does per week [...] not very economical and definitely not very environmentally friendly. ”
I see two effects here:
1).This is the Finnish concept of recirculating money, as Fred Fry mentioned in an earlier post. Poor people pay much more in auto taxes—since used cars are taxed higher—therefore the rest of us need to supply poor people with more transfer payments so they can afford to live.
2).Insofar as environmental friendliness or lack thereof, it makes no difference when considering used cars. That’s because they’ll be driven somewhere by *somebody* no matter what. Ultimately, it doesn’t matter whether it’s a Finn, Russian, Czech or German. The car will be driven until it dies a natural (or unnatural) death. Same amount of pollution in the end.
We can argue that’s it’s better to junk the old inefficient cars, but then we’ll create new emissions by virtue of building new ones…not to mention the environmental cost of disposing the old ones prematurely.
Mikael: “So why not make cars that consume less than say 6L/100km extremely low tax cars and then raise the taxes a couple of percentage per liter/100km that the car consumes.”
I agree, but only for new cars. Or make the tax regressive according to age. Same reason as above.
Also, I agree with your point about SUV’s and danger to other road users. I’d rather not see SUV’s in Europe.
Comment by Kristian — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 7:51 pm
#118
Another point….
3). By encouraging the purchasing of new cars—albeit more efficient ones—then we ensure that more capital flows out of Finland.
Whereas I don’t want to see any protectionism whatsoever, I also don’t think spending of capital on imports should be encouraged artificially. The policy should be neutral in that regard.
Comment by Kristian — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 8:11 pm
Wow, haven’t we had a fun day without the punter. Dave the rave, why was the comment ridiculous? I simply stated a view that with all of the oil held in the former USSR now reachable by foreign companies and with likely investment in the pipelines and infrastructure we can likely look forward to more oil flowing from new fields. Now I didn’t say was that good or bad, that’s another matter, just that “new oil” is highly likely. Okay, it’s not new in that it’s been in the ground since chicken was an egg but new in terms of the world market. Ridiculous?
As for mjr and wondering if I know of evolution. Yes, I’ve heard of it. Maybe if you read and considered my posts, then did the same to yours you might well ask yourself this question. You seemingly think that change is a bad thing. Every time it’s mentioned you bag it. Keep this, don’t change that. Now I simply said more oil is likely in the world market due to the opening up of massive fields previously off limits to the West. That’s looking forward. I also said earlier that we should lok ahead and develop a way to make it cheaper to buy new more environmentally friendly, safe and efficient cars to limit the costs to society. Now if that is not looking ahead and somehow sounds primitive to you then I’m sorry. I’m sorry for us all that have to constantly live in such a stuffy and judgemental society.
BTW Dave, the Spanish red peppers in the shops at the moment are to die for
Comment by Punter — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 8:17 pm
Hey Ã…boy, you are still alive. Forget your silly “The Spanish steroid-strawberries are devoid of any taste” propaganda and answer the question I left you on the previous post. I’m really turning blue. HELP
Comment by Punter — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 8:28 pm
DAVE THE RAVE
“If hfb is the product of the culture of murderers then you are the product of generations of insane, alcoholic, emotionally-deprivated, sport suit wearing, dentally challenged, vegetable-xenophobic, salmiak sucking, self-loathing, country-bumpkin-redneck, street pooping, metro-riding-axe-wielding-psychopaths.”
That was exactly my point. hfb claims that finns are like this, I just wanted to know if she accepts the statement that americans are the product of the culture of murder, torture and, etc. as it is as valid argument as is her’s. If she doesn’t she’s a hypocrit and a racist.
Note my comment #97
“hfb is absolutely right we are drunk even on TV
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXu65NYmA-k
Remontti-Reiska has had a few too many drinks.
Seriously hfb anecdotal evidence is no evidence, or do you accept that yanks are murderers and torturers. USA is a culture of murder, do you accept this statment as it’s as valid as is yours.”
Comment by Anonymous — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 8:44 pm
Look at all these happy people spending their Saturday in front of their computer claiming an injustice weilded against the happy Finns of the world. LOL.
Oh, Dave, nice comeback and yeah, public displays of alcoholic pregnant women and women with babies is sadly seen with some frequency. There’s nothing like watching a very pregnant woman stagger in downtown while waiting for a bus and not seeing even one person step up to help or say something. There was once a woman in the park with all the drunks with her newborn in the pram and amazingly one of the women in the dog park called the police on her. But, hey, all the domestic abuse and fetal alcohol stats must be a vicious lie. Maybe the parliament should start taxing these sorts even more and reward people with healthy(er) lifestyles with a lower tax rate.
Comment by hfb — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 8:44 pm
“But, hey, all the domestic abuse and fetal alcohol stats must be a vicious lie.”
And yet we aren’t claiming that all americans are murderers and tortures just because the statistics say otherwise unlike you are.
So mrs. sweeping generalizations how is the life back there in uberhumanville
Comment by Anonymous — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 8:47 pm
Fred Fry:
“- Actualy. It takes five years of savings from driving a hybrid to save enough to compensate for the added cost of buying a hybrid. Also, your hybrid won’t last 20 years. You are lucky if you get 10 years out of it. Keep in mind that they car has two power systems in it, and that much more can go wrong with it.”
How much does it take to make ECOLOGICAL savings? After all, that’s the REAL POINT of switching to a hybrid. Not economic savings, although these are the ones used to motivate selfish car-owners.
Comment by Thomas — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 8:50 pm
hfb:
“Given that I’ve not seen a single violent, pooping, pissing or passing out in the street drunk since I left the so-called happiest nation in the EU, another baseless claim that mere observation doesn’t support,”
Either you haven’t been around, or you’re just lying. I saw some of the worst cases of completely messed up drunks (COMPLETLY ignored by passers-by) in downtown NYC, the last time I was there.
Comment by Thomas — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 8:59 pm
Mikael:
“So why not make cars that consume less than say 6L/100km extremely low tax cars and then raise the taxes a couple of percentage per liter/100km that the car consumes. That will make the environmentally friendly cars something of a bargain for most people and those who necessarily must drive around in big SUVs pay more, both for the car and in general taxes, and we could also say that the high taxes on big cars come from the fact that their mass is poses a greater danger towards fellow road-users and pedestrians.”
This might be the way to go, but the autovero merely prolongs the life-time of cars, whilst the bensavero punishes the vasters. And the consumption of a 10 year old car really isn’t that much greater than for a brand new - similar - car.
Comment by Thomas — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 9:11 pm
Kristian:
“That’s because they’ll be driven somewhere by *somebody* no matter what. Ultimately, it doesn’t matter whether it’s a Finn, Russian, Czech or German. The car will be driven until it dies a natural (or unnatural) death. Same amount of pollution in the end.”
Simply not true (afaik). I don’t think you can provide us with any statistics that show that old cars travel around the globe in such a way as you claim. I think cars are scapped (and not sold further) at a faster pace in countries with faster car turn-around times. One reason being, that the market of used spare parts is lucrative (due to auto manufactereurs greed). So byuing an old car is lucrative, if you’re able to take it to pieces, and sell the pieces to needy ones.
All of this, is naturally the result of auto manufactereurs selling crap for an expensive price. After investing time & money at making the culture car-borne.
Comment by Thomas — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 9:33 pm
“And the consumption of a 10 year old car really isn’t that much greater than for a brand new - similar - car.” Where do you get that idea from. Not only has there been a significant reduction in fuel consumptionin the past 10 years but also an even greater reduction in the level and type of emissions (not to mention the recyclable content of materials.) All in all, the modern car (3 years old) is a far more efficient beast and far less harmful on the environment. We shouldbe rewarded and not punished for buying them.
Comment by Punter — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 9:34 pm
I seem to remeber reading and seeing a documentary about the high number of Toyota Hiaces exported from Finland across to Africa every year and how quickly the locals there lap them up. Just like us and the cars we’re forced to import from Germany. Does anyone else recall seeing this?
Comment by Punter — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 9:40 pm
How about writing a blog post about the upcoming elections?
Comment by Passer-by — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 9:40 pm
“How about writing a blog post about the upcoming elections?” - Passer-by
Possibly because it’s more fun making shit up.
Comment by RAVE THE DAVE — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 10:30 pm
Kristian:
“Whereas I don’t want to see any protectionism whatsoever, I also don’t think spending of capital on imports should be encouraged artificially. The policy should be neutral in that regard.”
That is one of the points behind the autovero in the first place. Your thick-sculledness is amptly proven by the above. It doesn’t really matter whether a finn buys a used or new car from abroad. It’s import nevertheless. Why should one be treated differently than the other? Your scheme is simply to build up a general car life-cycle similar to that one in Germany. The point in support for a longer one is ecology + what youd say above. But with your idiotic scheme we would simply choose
1) a shorter life-cycle, which is ecologically bad
2) an older car park, which is bad for safety
3) a bigger amount of cash outflow, which is bad for the economy
This is the scheme you have been stubbornly presenting as ideal, simply out of your own self-interest. As you drive between Germany and Finland you would be a likely “importer” of these used cars, and now you want to get public support for your personal import business.
Learn to sail, and import sailing boats instead. Much more ecological. But I guess you’re not able to that.
Comment by Thomas — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 10:45 pm
Punter:
“Where do you get that idea from. Not only has there been a significant reduction in fuel consumptionin the past 10 years but also an even greater reduction in the level and type of emissions (not to mention the recyclable content of materials.)”
The usage hasn’t gone down significantly. Afaik, the Opel Kadett (model -90) I used didn’t use any more fuel than my current car (model -06). Don’t know about other emissions, but I doubt (?) the emissions used in building the newer cars make up that of using the old one.
“I seem to remeber reading and seeing a documentary about the high number of Toyota Hiaces exported from Finland across to Africa every year and how quickly the locals there lap them up. Just like us and the cars we’re forced to import from Germany. Does anyone else recall seeing this?”
I don’t. But nevertheless, there is a big market for used spares. Having owned a 90 Kadett, I can tell you. Or go have a look at motonet. These parts are - I assume - not imported. They come from cars brought to car dealers as “exchange”. They become spare parts quicker in Germany than in Finland. Due to the life-cycle. Due to the fact that second hand values are bigger. That’s what I believe.
Comment by Thomas — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 10:47 pm
Thomas, I think if I know Kristian from his posts that you’ve just opened yourself up for the KO blow.
Dave, any further comments on my previous post to you? #120 Interested in your opinion ad the red peppers out your way….
Comment by Punter — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 10:49 pm
An Opel Kadett from the year 1990 not using more than an 06 model? Come on. When you weigh up the engine size, hp and torque, drivability etc you can not tell me that 2 comparible cars, 16 years apart are similar in terms of consumption and emissions. Simply, you can’t. Don’t take my word for it, no in fact DO. YOU ARE WRONG:
Comment by Punter — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 10:59 pm
Being such “an old car”, you sure you’re not comparing imp gallons to metric litres/ 100 km???
Comment by Punter — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 11:02 pm
Protectionism is stupid!
Sky high car taxes are a protectionist measure designed to divert expenditure away from cars towards domestically produced items, such as over-priced rotten stawberries and other veg., grown in a harsh climate at tremendous cost.
Feel sorry for the Finns.
They actually beleive the bullshit they are told by their “Big Brother” government: Yes, all foreign products is produced using poisonous fertilisers!
From my infrequent visits to the shithole that is Finland I can’t believe how naive the locals are. They think that Finnish chicken and beef are superior to the imported substitutes.
One question for my Finnish pals:
You can choose to eat an imported organic beef steak. The cow lived in a country where it can live outdoors eating grass every month of the year.
Or you can eat a non-organic steak that came from a cow that lived indoors for 6 months of the year eating hay.
Finns choose the later just because the plastic pack that contains the steak has a Finnish flag on it, and it costs more too!
Feel sorry for the Finns!
They don’t even know what really goes on in their own country. They aren’t interested. They just enjoy their MYTHS!!!
Look at the statistics! High rates of tax cannot be defended on environmental grounds. On a per capita basis the Finns are one of the most polluting nations in Europe, much higher than Sweden or the UK (It’s pointless to compare yourself against the USA because environmentally they’re in a different league)
One final point to my Finnish chums. You all think that Finland is great; superior to other countries. Well, if that’s so how come so few foregners come to live in your version of paradise?
Comment by Anonymous — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 11:12 pm
“Look at the statistics! LOW rates of tax cannot be defended on environmental grounds.”
USA, CHINA both have low taxation and what do you get the biggest polluters in the world
Comment by Anonymous — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 11:48 pm
Heh, I diverted my expenditures and now I’m driving to work by strawberry.
“Well, if that’s so how come so few foregners come to live in your version of paradise?”
I’m home here, they are not.
Comment by Antti rn — Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 11:50 pm
Punter: “I think if I know Kristian from his posts that you’ve just opened yourself up for the KO blow.”
Punter, when Thomas starts connecting autovero (in its current state) with environmental benefits, we know the purpose of his argument: Support overtaxation any way possible
_
Just waiting to hear the connection between overpriced Alko and the environment……
_
By the way, can anyone tell me, is autovero covered by insurance? That is, if you crash your newly purchased car, then do you have to pay those many thousands of Euros all over again upon buying a replacement car? Or does insurance cover it?
Comment by Kristian — Sun, Mar 18th, 2007 @ 12:14 am
Punter:
“An Opel Kadett from the year 1990 not using more than an 06 model? Come on. When you weigh up the engine size, hp and torque, drivability etc you can not tell me that 2 comparible cars, 16 years apart are similar in terms of consumption and emissions. Simply, you can’t. Don’t take my word for it, no in fact DO. YOU ARE WRONG:”
While you’re at it, show me the facts. If you please. I say there’s no big difference. When I say big difference, I mean figures like 20%. And this is an age difference of 15 years.
And while you’re at it, show me a believable estimate that shows, why a -90 Kadett should be out of business. Because that’s what you and mr. Autovero are proposing.
Comment by Thomas — Sun, Mar 18th, 2007 @ 12:35 am
Kristian:
“Punter, when Thomas starts connecting autovero (in its current state) with environmental benefits, we know the purpose of his argument: Support overtaxation any way possible”
When you talk about environment we know, it’s not from an environmental purpose.
When I say, I believe that the autovero is a GOOD THING IF IT MEANS THAT ENVIRONMENTAL DAMAGES ARE MINIMISED, I’m sincere. GET IT. Now you can claim whatever you like, but I think I’ve given straight answers to why I support the autovero. E.g. based on ecology and economy. Unlike you, you admitted car-importer, whose only reason for bringing this autovero up time after time, is your own self-interest.
Hypocrite.
Comment by Thomas — Sun, Mar 18th, 2007 @ 12:51 am
Per capita China produces less than one tenth of the polltion produced by an average Finn
Fool!
Comment by Anonymous — Sun, Mar 18th, 2007 @ 2:08 am
NO you are the fool USA produces 25% procent of worlds pollution and China is picking up. You better hope that they are not going to pursue the american way of life.
Now go cry nancy boy and grow some pubic hair.
Comment by Anonymous — Sun, Mar 18th, 2007 @ 2:47 am
Anyone who is against a high gas tax out of supporting a market free of regulation is a fool. Suppliers of petroleum are already keeping the price of their product artificially high with their cartel. They’ve been at it for decades. Any idiot can see that the West should’ve formed a buyers’ cartel to avoid being ripped off by the towelheads.
Comment by Markku — Sun, Mar 18th, 2007 @ 3:24 am
Amazing how the mention of drunk pregnant women and moms and domestic violence got folks back on topic.
Anonymous #124 =“And yet we aren’t claiming that all americans are murderers and tortures just because the statistics say otherwise unlike you are. So mrs. sweeping generalizations how is the life back there in uberhumanville”. The lack of debate and language skills by most commenters on this blog always amuses me. What was I claiming unlike you what? Nevermind, I’m sure the comeback will be equally as unintelligible. How is it back home? It’s great. The Finnish in-laws came to visit last week and, while they’re nice people and I get on ok with them, the visit reminded me of why I left and am happy to raise the child as an American. A random nice old lady in the grocery store gushed more to me over my cute spawn than my Finnish in-laws did in a week. Yes, it’s good to be home.
“Per capita China produces less than one tenth of the polltion produced by an average Finn” — Wow, if that’s true, Finland is in some serious trouble given that China is quickly becoming a toxic wasteland due to industrialization without much if any regulation. Punter, I believe the stat you are thinking of is that Finns top the ‘environmental footprint’ per capita in the EU due to all the logging.
Thomas — I don’t live in NYC, a place as dirty and as urban a place one might imagine if the population of Finland were stuffed into Helsinki. My point was that I can walk my pram in an urban area without seeing the same parade of drunks I did in Helsinki. Maybe having to be sober for all of last summer made the difference as I’m a drinker and I’ve staggered home on more than a few occasions in Helsinki but I never really noticed just how many drunks, career drunks, there were before.
Comment by