High prices for cars encourage people to use public transportation. This in turn will lessen our need for oil and the impact we have on environment. Of course we could do like americans and get car prices down so everyone could have a hummer.

Yeh, what great way for others to control how YOU choose to live out our short lives. Within Finland I have to travel 90 klm. everyday one way…yeh, public transport ? yeh righttt…

You can do it, but dont dare to tell me…or we will be having some big problems. You don’t want to drive a car ? great. I do and I should not be forces to pay higher. But then again Public transport prices are going higher and higher…ahh poetic justice… OHH p.s. I dont turn my car off while I wait at gas stations or when I run into the post…I LOVE my car warm when I get out….mmm I love that greenhouse…green house ? nahhh, just a hype

God’s own people. “Encourage us to use public transport, lesson our need for oil, save the environment.” Take your head out of the clouds. My work week, which is just about to end, includes a minimum of 1300 km driving or 15 hours min spent at the wheel of my car. Now, you want to try it with public transport? Lesson our need for oil? Maybe if the government would make it more affordable for people to buy new more efficient cars we could actually reduce our oil consumption while driving??? Save the environment? Read the previous point.
Not only would cheaper new cars therefore reduce oil cunsumption but they would help save the world by using recyclable parts and have lower emmisions. As a apin off for the welfare state with its public health system, new cars are also far safer for driver, passenger and pedestrian therefore reducing the risk of high cost care resulting from accidents in old “death boxes” we use as cars. Think of the cost to the state in terms of care and lost production due to accidents, add the environmental benefits and now tell me why cheaper new cars are a bad thing?

Within Finland I have to travel 90 klm. everyday one way

Why live 90 kms from where you work? Thick cunt.

“High prices for cars encourage people to use public transportation.”

You mean force people. Not sure what kind of fantasy life you surround yourself in, but public transport is no catch all. It really is a better idea to let people take home their Ikea purchases in their own car and not on the bus. (been there, done that.) And many who commute to work have much longer commutes because they use public transport instead of taking their own car. (Commute by car, 15 minutes. By Metro and bus, 45 minutes.)

Then since you limit access to private transport, you now are forced to run mostly empty busses on odd routes because it is better for the environment.

As for the Hummer, according to this study, it is better for the environment than a Toyota Prius hybrid, if you include the energy it took to build the vehicles!

Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage
http://clubs.ccsu.edu/recorder/editorial/editorial_item.asp?NewsID=188

The Toyota Prius has become the flagship car for those in our society so environmentally conscious that they are willing to spend a premium to show the world how much they care. Unfortunately for them, their ultimate ‘green car’ is the source of some of the worst pollution in North America; it takes more combined energy per Prius to produce than a Hummer.

And this is a news!? In Finland we have this thing called reilu autovero.

For example if you buy BMW 328 1999 130-150.000km from Germany about 10:000e it will cost you to bringing Finland 500-1000e and then the taxes about 6-7000. Total of 16500-18000. And in Finland the price for the same car would be about 20-220000e.

Fuck the Government!

“High prices for cars encourage people to use public transportation.”

Actually, I’ve avoided about 40K in autovero over the years by purchasing cars in Germany while living there.

Thanks to the savings, I could always afford a seutulippu when returning here to Finland. I take Public Transit everyday, whether in Finland, Germany or elsewhere. Much better than driving

Public Transit doesn’t help for going to the Mökki though.  And Finland’s Public Transit isn’t the greatest anyway.

I agree that the tax on cars should be lowered. On the other hand, the fuel tax should be raised.

All oil consuming industrial nations should agree on raising taxes on petroleum. That would lead to lowered demand. The oil producers’ artel OPEC and other producers would have to respond by lowering the asking price of their product to avoid losing revenue.

Opposing the above or even advocating the lowering of gas taxes in European or other oil-importing nations in the name of the free market is totally idiotic. Namely, the international oil market IS NOT FREE. In reality, it is heavily CARTELLIZED. The power of OPEC is on the increase as new oil-producing nations are entering it and as non-OPEC oil-producers are falling relatively behind OPEC in production capacity owing to dwindling resources.

The only ones to benefit from lower gas taxes in the West or Asia are the Russians and the OPEC. Who wants to pump more money into their coffers?

@8 Fuel tax doesnt need to be raised either. A better way is to give tax relief to those purchasing more fuel efficient cars like hybrids and removing the diesel tax, since diesels are more fuel efficient. The majority of Finns seem totally convinced that taxation is the solution to everything.

Instead of enforcing collective punishment, how about rewarding those that do something for the enviroment (it is called positive reinforcement, but I guess that concept is too difficult to undertand in this country)

OP
“With Finland’s car tax, used cars in Finland cost nearly double the German price. It’s slightly cheaper to import one yourself, but not much so. For example, bringing a 10,000€ automobile to Finland from Germany will cost you roughly an additional 8,000€ in autovero. The total price for your 10,000€ automobile will be about 18,000€. I can’t help to think about how much MONEY FINNS LOSE due to this ripoff.”

Barking up the wrong tree again Kristian -
Even with this equation Finns still lose more because the orginal purchase (-10,000/car) is made in Germany not because of the vero (+8,000/car) – which is the only way Finns benefit from the individual purchase outside the country.

If the individual who elected to export his hard (Finland) earned Euro to buy a car in Germany, because it saves him personally say 10% overall (without even costing in the additional effort/risk and sundry expenses), instead chose to make his purchase in Finland then Finns gain much more because the domestic economy is supported rather than bleeding away.
If you need to by a car at all buy it in Finland.

Punter, “minimum of 1300 km driving or 15 hours min spent at the wheel of my car. ”

get a life and save yourself a lot of time and money, and help the the environment by moving closer to where you choose to work.

DH I work where my customers are in order to primarily earn a successful living to provide for my family and unfortunately pay taxes for the likes of you and half of the Finns on this site so don’t tell me to get a life. BTW, it went over 2000km this week. Good week

12. Punter,
At your average speed of near 90kph you also seem to be in quite a hurry – are you running drugs perhaps?

Its all about control. They wrap the green “Global warming” scam, and wam, the entire world follows Finland.

Its all about control, and by the way, no Finn can have more Hummers than his neighbor.

“I agree that the tax on cars should be lowered. On the other hand, the fuel tax should be raised.

All oil consuming industrial nations should agree on raising taxes on petroleum. That would lead to lowered demand.”

If using cars is that bad, why not just ban them. Might as well ban mokki too, which would take away an excuse to have a car. Why not ban domestic airplane flights as well. The trains go to more places than planes do. Think of all the good this will bring to the environment. If not, then let the people have the cars and the gas to run them. Both taxes are regressive in that they hurt people more the poorer they are. Car ownership should be a right in a first-world country.

@8 Fuel tax doesnt need to be raised either. A better way is to give tax relief to those purchasing more fuel efficient cars like hybrids

– Do take a look at the link I posted earlier. It takes an American five years of driving to recover the added cost of a prius through savings.
– In the end your car use contributes little to the situation. Have you changed out your light bulbs yet? Why not? Maybe regular bulbs should be taxed higher. Or maybe electricity should be taxed much higher!

None of you anti car people able to answer my simple question? Thought not. BTW, with summer speed limits soon to come into force, the average speed will increase too. Ah, driving music on the Ipod and off we go.

pi: “At your average speed of near 90kph you also seem to be in quite a hurry – are you running drugs perhaps?”

I guess you’re willing to defame anyone whose opinions you don’t like?

Thanks Kristian but I’ve lived here 14 years now so used to that by now

Can’t wait to get the motorbike out soon to. Now that really is a fun way to waste some petrol. broom broom…..

Phil commented on the Autovero some months ago – and he actually said something that I completely agree with: High car taxes prevent people from buying new and more environmentally friendly cars.

Punter,
Which of your simple questions are you wanting answered?

The inane – “Now, you want to try it with public transport?”
The unintelligible – “The Lesson our need for oil?”
The nonquestion – “Maybe if the government would make it more affordable for people to buy new more efficient cars we could actually reduce our oil consumption while driving???”
Or the positive statement with a question mark appended – ” Save the environment?”
?

“Not only would cheaper new cars therefore reduce oil cunsumption but they would help save the world by using recyclable parts and have lower emmisions. As a apin off for the welfare state with its public health system, new cars are also far safer for driver, passenger and pedestrian therefore reducing the risk of high cost care resulting from accidents in old “death boxes” we use as cars. Think of the cost to the state in terms of care and lost production due to accidents, add the environmental benefits and now tell me why cheaper new cars are a bad thing?”

Make sense?

“Make sense?”

no

Further proof of the standard of education here in Finland. Obvious reasons for the benefits of cheaper new cars on the road from the environment to roll effects to our State health care system. I guess thinking outside of your normal level of comfort simply presents too many dificulties for you people.

If atutovero were to be lowered, where would the goverment then get the money to pay for the current services. All of you people demand lower taxes, but you never give any solution on how would the goverment then get the money. If services were stopped by the goverment, you would be the first ones to critize. Nothing seems to be enough for you people, you just have to find something, I never hear anything good coming out of your mouths.
The rant above was meant for all the libertarians in here, americans who believe us is best and other people who do nothing but complain. If you want change, go vote, if you can’t vote, meaning you aren’t finnish citizen and none of this really concerns you, then shut up.

“If you want change, go vote, if you can’t vote, meaning you aren’t finnish citizen and none of this really concerns you, then shut up.” – saku

You almost had me, up to this. Where the hell do you get off telling people who are enriching your country via unbelievable taxation merely by offering their services and then buying your unbelievably over-taxed goods to “shut up?”

Sure, they can’t vote, but they have every right to complain as these obscene (at least the 100% car tax) taxes really are uniquely harsh.

I see plenty of Mercedes, BMWs Lotuses and actually Hummers driving all around Helsinki these days (many more than were driven around in 1990 when not even most taxi cabs were Mercedes)… I wonder who is driving those expensive cars? I wonder who is benefiting from the taxation of them?

You go do your civic duty and vote, überFinn. But don’t let me see you bitch about the Iraq war or anything coming from a country other than perfect Finland, “cause you can’t vote there!”

Jesus.

22.
Yes Punter I see your point, it would be a good thing if you were not charging around the country at high speed in your deathbox old vehicle and endangering lives polluting the environment.

If you had a cheap new car would you slow down, would you drive less, would you show more respect for the environment?

Dave, you are no longer in the cave. Welcome out Your friend C#nter

26.
“I see plenty of Mercedes, BMWs Lotuses and actually Hummers driving all around Helsinki these days”

So Kristina, car prices can’t be soo bad, eh?

For the record, I have never in my +/-15 years here owned a car. I was merely defending non-Finns’ right to complain.

Additionally, I in no way support (or ever have) the Iraq war or the Bush crime regime.

I haven’t raved about irag at all. You americans can as many soldiers in irag as you want, I don’t care. I’ve never said that Finland is perfect, sure we got our share of problems, but I think that we are better off than many of the countries that people in this forum seem to idolize. You didn’t answer my question about how would the goverment fund services then if taxes were lowered. You complain and complain without providing realistic choice, saying lowering taxes is good for Finland isn’t realistic choice when you take into account the lost tax revenues. And you Dave aren’t the only one, lot more people in this forum are quilty of that too.

“…no Finn can have more Hummers than his neighbor.”

Noo, that’s Sweden. There it is considered obscene och olagom, if you are one millimeter ahead of the Svenssons. Here they even used to paint the houses yellow, as the yellow paint was more expensive, than the neighbour’s traditional red&white. If they couldn’t quite afford it, only part of the house was painted yellow.

I don’t think you understand my friend and in fact I think that goes for many of you. I DON’T WANT THE GOVERNMENT TO PROVIDE ALL OF THESE “THINGS” FOR US. Especially not at the price they seem to charge. Not at all. Get it? It’s not that difficult to understand. I think that we as people should be responsible for our own welfare and not the government. That said, I think the government should stop charging us tax on everything and basically get out of our lives and let us be responsible human beings and fend for ourselves more. That way I won’t be compalaining when the government stops doing what it does today and rather gives me more in my pocket each month to decide want I want to do in the interest of my family and I. Rocket science 101

31. And you can’t admit that a 100 percent tax is basically extortion.

Incidentally, I am more often on the side of the pro-taxers on these pages… I don’t know where you got the idea I “complain and complain.”

As I wrote above, I have never owned a car in Finland due to prohibitive pricing in relation to where I live (in expensive downtownish Helsinki). However, we are not rich and having a car would provide my family with the means to go pick up some furniture once in a while, to be able to improve our lives by being able to go to the hardware store. Instead, I have decided to “make do” with what we have… And you know what? I am sick and tired of making due.

Perhaps you have never lived so far away from relatives / family / close friends that you are all on your own? Well, when you are an expat, you can’t just call “Daddy” to come help out, sometimes “luxuries” are necessary. I know that I have hit a wall recently in that regard.

In order for my family to get a home we would have to move out into the sticks to find a place we could afford and that would probably also involve two cars. Explain to me, how this is feasible/possible when the price of a car is double of what it would cost almost anywhere else on the planet?

The law is what it is… It is prohibitive. Like I said, I can’t see a future here where the government seems set on making life as difficult as possible. Believe me, I am no Libertarian, but then again neither is the Finnish government.

33.”I think that we as people should be responsible for our own welfare and not the government. That said, I think the government should stop charging us tax on everything and basically get out of our lives and let us be responsible human beings and fend for ourselves more.”

Punter it does sound a little like you enjoy the benefits of living in a society (such as roads to zoom around on) but do not wish to contribute your share.

I sounds like you and your family wish to roll your own roads and other capital intensive infrastructure, educate yourselves, treat all of your own ailments, maintain a fair system of law and order around your cave etc. Or are these some of the things you do not want the government to provide?

All I’m asking is that people explain where would we get money for the services then. Punter, aina sitä haluta saa .

Indeed I do enjoy driving around on roads but if I had to choose between a toll system where you pay as you use for all major new road projects and cheaper taxes associated with motoring or stay as is then it’s a no brainer. I understand taxation and its need in society, just not the level and doubling up of so many taxes in this system when frankly the services are not that great when compared to most modern wester nations in 2007. The days of not questioning government policy and believing everything we’re told should be well behind us, especially in such an “educated country.”
As for Saku, read my point again. Vai onko liian vaikea?

Hey, Kristian managed to make an argument that makes sense! Even the facts seem to be right. Congratulations! The car tax system is a mess. The unfortunate thing for him is that Kristian agrees here with more or less all parties, even if mostly for different reasons. I mean, how embarrassing it must feel to share a policy with all those bloody socialists.

By the way, how cheap is cheap oil in the USA. IIRC the war in Iraq costs something like 300 000 000 dollars each day for the Americans alone. Even Finland pays big money to fix what others broke.

Punter, ei oo mutta on liian hapokasta

saku: “You didn’t answer my question about how would the goverment fund services then if taxes were lowered. ”

A legitimate point.

I’d say we need to broaden the tax base. Right now our base is limited by what foreign investors can throw our way.

We need people here—even poor ones—to accumulate capital and invest. Then we can tax them on their investment earnings in addition to their income, albeit at lower rates than now.

If we develop more equity, then it’s easier on the welfare system in the long run. And it makes us more competitive internationally.
Currently, government of other countries—lower tax ones in particular—receive tax revenues from the profits we generate as workers here in Finland. In other words, THEY are the ones with the broad tax base.

Another thing… I’m glad we have people here from other countries giving us new ideas. And we give them our ideas too. No country is perfect and isolation helps no one.

Hey, Kristian managed to make an argument that makes sense! Even the facts seem to be right. Congratulations! The car tax system is a mess. The unfortunate thing for him is that Kristian agrees here with more or less all parties, even if mostly for different reasons. I mean, how embarrassing it must feel to share a policy with all those bloody socialists and environmentalists.

By the way, how cheap is cheap oil in the USA. IIRC the war in Iraq costs something like 300 000 000 dollars each day for the Americans alone. Even Finland pays big money to fix what others broke.

“We need people here—even poor ones—to accumulate capital and invest.”

And naturally, that investment can take many forms. Capital stock, bonds…. But we also hope that people will invest in- and operate- business that create jobs. If we structure our tax system optimally here in Finland, then they won’t have to go to eastern Europe.

1. The car tax should be lowered, because there is no reason to punish people for buying a car.

2. Let the already high fuel tax stay high, no need to raise it since oil is going to get more expensive anyway.

3. Don’t tax at all the new biodiesels etc.

-> This way people get reward for using the ecological fuels, and at the same time they are able to buy newer, less polluting cars.

“Let the already high fuel tax stay high, no need to raise it”

It would affect consumer prices and raise our overall cost-of-living even higher than it’s current exorbitant amount. So I don’t think they’ll touch that idea with a (as an American would say) 10-foot pole.

Basic problem. Finland taxes everything and there is no link to the item taxed and the purpose of the revenue behind the tax.

** We are going to tax cars to punish you for buying the car – Unlike taxing cars to either provide public transport OR provide good road systems.

** We are going to tax public transport for NO.GOOD.REASON (I always thought it odd to tax what is essentially a Government service.)

** We are going to tax alcohol, after we fix the price. (Does alko make more profit from operations or from the alcohol tax. Again, taxing a Government operation.)

Then we are going to charge VAT on the taxes!

Hey, Kristian managed to make an argument that makes sense! Even the facts seem to be right. Congratulations! The car tax system is a mess. The unfortunate thing for him is that Kristian agrees here with more or less all parties, even if mostly for different reasons. I mean, how embarrassing it must feel to share a policy with all those bloody socialists and environmentalists.

By the way, how cheap is cheap oil in the USA. IIRC the war in Iraq costs something like 300 000 000 dollars each day for the Americans alone. Even Finland pays big money to fix what others broke.

Basic problem. Finland taxes everything and there is no link to the item taxed and the purpose of the revenue behind the tax.

Most of the time there is a very precise and transparent link.

@43 Yes, you now understand The Finnish Ponzi game.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme

I agree completely with Fred in #43. Also “Anonymous” has a point when he names someone a thick cunt. It’s Friday after all…

saku, are you for real?

Majava, yes I’m for real. Sure taxing is high but I don’t see any other alternative that doesn’t lead to high deficit for the goverment, which isn’t exactly a good thing. Sure lowering taxes might benefit us in the long run but in the short run it might cause Finland to go into massive debt. Since the taxes are so high that its hurting us, how come then it is that we are ranked in the top ten for our economy or school in many studies.

“All I’m asking is that people explain where would we get money for the services then.”

By not cutting the income tax again, or cutting it less than planned. Autovero could’ve been removed years ago if the income tax cuts had been smaller.

I’d rather take the option of being able to buy a new, safe, environmentally friendly car for 15-20000EUR (instead of 30000EUR) as opposed to taking a 1-2% income tax cut.

Due to elections there’s been lots of talk about improving the situation of “poor people”. Well, I’m all for that, but how about improving the situation of the comparatively poor middle class, too?

first we take care of the poor people since they are the worst off, or are you saying you are starving. Those poor people consider thing luxuries which we consider every day goods. Once the poor people are better off we can move up the ladder.

The car tax will drop soon, don’t worry. That doesn’t mean much to the environment, though, because old Finnish cars will then be sold in Russia and other poor neighboring countries and used there probably even more – and for longer – than in Finland.

“Sure taxing is high but I don’t see any other alternative that doesn’t lead to high deficit for the goverment, which isn’t exactly a good thing.”

Actually justified tax cuts (those that boost the economy) can often result in higher tax revenue, so chances are that services wouldn’t have to be cut.

Also, who says that our tax money has to pay for things like daycare, opera, sports, fancy independence day parties, etc.? There’s a lot we could cut. I know that you don’t want to do that, but that doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t do it. You don’t have it all figured out, kid.

Why shouldn’t taxes pay for daycare. Independent day parties one thing we could cut, but I don’t see that happening very soon.

€200 a month for my 4yo to attend day care doesn’t sound like taxes doing much to me. Oh sorry, it’s my taxes making sure the poor that sit home all day have free day care for their kids. Now I’ve got.

Let’s say that all of a sudden your home finances fall apart. Your luck changes and all of a sudden you find yourself counting pennies. Now do you simply keep spending and hope that one day it will all balance or instead do you tighten your belt and cut back on expenditure? As we saw in the good old USSR, they had a wonderful way of dealing with an ever increasing shortage of money, print more! That is basically what the government here is doing by cutting back on one tax, lets say income tax, and simply increasing others. It doesn’t work. Real tax relief combined with a cut in expenditure is the only way to develop. Allow private enterprise the chance to take over certain services and also give the citizens more of a chance to decide what they wish to use and pay for themselves. By doing this, the government will run a tighter ship, costs will drop, our economy will be more open and people like us that annoy you all will no longer have anything to complain about. In the end, those of you needing BASIC welfare will not be on the street but may see the benefit of a modern free market economy and join the ride. We would hope so and welcome you along anyway. Time for my beauty sleep so good night folks.

Punter:

“€200 a month for my 4yo to attend day care doesn’t sound like taxes doing much to me. Oh sorry, it’s my taxes making sure the poor that sit home all day have free day care for their kids. Now I’ve got.”

€200 a month is much less than the MARKET would charge you. Much less. just ask anyone in England e.g.

You just don’t get it. I’m aware of what the market charges for day care and more than happy to pay it. Just such relatively high costs COMBINED with ridiculously high taxes everywhere means we’re getting screwed twice. It has to be one or the other, not both ALL THE TIME. That’s really all I’m asking for. Give me the market and low tax or high tax and a lower cost on these so called “free services.” Too much to ask for?
Now, good night.

“Why shouldn’t taxes pay for daycare.”

Because lazy people who are already not working are dropping/dumping their children in daycare so that they can avoid being a parent as well.

Don’t tell me that it does not happen. My mother in law is the recipient and to tell the truth, the children are better off. But that is not what it was intended for. Anyway, you have the children, how about taking the time to raise them. Maybe if one parent of each family is encouraged to stay home, then perhaps more people would be employed. But if it is free or nearly so, there is no cost to just drop your child off each day.

Sure tax income and property, even sales. But tax everything? Come on. It must cost a fortune to administer all those tax schemes and with everyone a certain percentage is lost because of people working around the system. Cars from Germany, alcohol from Estonia. Cigarettes from….

Kristian:

“The loss is not just 8,000€ when you consider the Time Value of money. Let’s say you instead invest that amount in a growth mutual fund that yields 10% per annum. In 25-years, it’ll reach a value of over 85,000€.”

What a surprise that the “honourable” guest-blogger would bring this subject up. It’s not like it’s the first time.

Show me one “growth mutual fund” that guarantees 10% per annum over 25 yers. Get a fucking life will you.

And show me one person who drives 25 years using two cars. OK, somebody else except you. What the car industry strives for is a turn-around time of three years. That’s what their target customer looks like. Changes cars every three years. Look at warranties, service agreements, whatever. I can tell you that a good friend of mine previously in the car financing business told me exactly this.

Is this ecologically sustainable? Is it possible without a second hand market, and does the fact that Germany is a big car producer perhaps introduce a manufactured need for fast turn-around times? In your world no. In REALITY yes.

And cars have a second hand value. There is no evidence that cars depreciate in price faster in Finland than in Germany. It seems to be quite the contrary given your “out of the hat” price quotes. A car simply has a longer life-cycle in Finland.

And why is that bad? If the car-tax causes this longer life-cycle, why is that bad? Do you have any idea what is the ecologically right turn-around time for a 20000e car? 3 years, 5 years, 10 years? And who should decide it? Auto manufactereurs? This whole scheme is allowing them to build cars costing 20000e that don’t last 10 years. Are we really going to be in the hands of these kind of crooks?

“But, considering that you’ll probably need to purchase two-used cars within that 25-year timeperiod, you’ll actually lose about 110,000€. Hence, you’ve gotten ripped-off twice; in total, for roughly the cost of a flat.”

This is hilarious. You and winter should start an investment bank together. You sure are two tycoons aren’t you.

This effect – given your absurd initial assumption – could be calculated for ANY tax cost. Income tax, VAT, whatever. In the end everybody would be billioneers.

But it doesn’t quite work that way does it. The tax money somehow pours back into the economy. It’s not like the government simply STEALS it and then somehow destroys it, making it unusable. If you’re so naive that you really think this, then you’re beyond help.

Punter:

“Just such relatively high costs COMBINED with ridiculously high taxes everywhere means we’re getting screwed twice.”

So if you pay “ridiculously high taxes” and then ridicuolously low day-care prices, you get screwed twice. No wonder I don’t understand the libertarian logic. The problem is, there is no fucking logic.

Fred Fry:

“Basic problem. Finland taxes everything and there is no link to the item taxed and the purpose of the revenue behind the tax.”

Is the REALLY any need for taxation to be that tightly ear-marked? Do you know exactly which of your dollars are used to kill Iraqs (assuming you’re in the US)? Didn’t think so.

“** We are going to tax cars to punish you for buying the car – Unlike taxing cars to either provide public transport OR provide good road systems.

** We are going to tax public transport for NO.GOOD.REASON (I always thought it odd to tax what is essentially a Government service.)

** We are going to tax alcohol, after we fix the price. (Does alko make more profit from operations or from the alcohol tax. Again, taxing a Government operation.)

Then we are going to charge VAT on the taxes! ”

Who cares? If you work in a private company that produces goods for the private market, then your salary money will have been taxed and double taxed, and triple-taxed, …

What is this stupid fascination about double-taxation? Happens under any taxation scheme – afaik. Taxed money will be used for aqcuiring goods/services that are taxed – directly or inderectly. Like it or not. It’s just a result of the fact that money “moves about”. And that is the idea of money. The faster the turnaround time, the more gets taxed.

Fred Fry:

“Because lazy people who are already not working are dropping/dumping their children in daycare so that they can avoid being a parent as well.”

It’s funny that your kind always seem to be able to turn it around to this. What’s important is not, whether a certain service works and provides a good service to the community. The important thing is whether somebody might misuse the service, and waste your precious DOLLARS. The truth is not important, NO, rather dreamt up schemes of “how one could misuse his hand-out for PERSONAL GAIN”. There will always be freeriders. Most of the so called “MARKET” is made up of them. But I think it’s still better not to judge everybody just based on one example.

“My mother in law is the recipient and to tell the truth, the children are better off.”

Your mother in law is the recipient of WHAT, and WHY are the children better off?

Fred -

So the co2 emissions from producing a hybrid car would be paid off in five years? I think that’s a very good deal then. If I buy a car, I plan to drive it at least 20 years if possible.

As Thomas pointed out in an older thread, producing new cars isn’t environmentally sound even if they have better mileage. And maintaining the culture of buying a new car every five years (or less?) is something that shouldn’t be supported.

Pave: “And maintaining the culture of buying a new car every five years (or less?) is something that shouldn’t be supported.”

Ok, so why is the autovero on new cars so much less than on used ones?

I think Fred said it best:

“Finland taxes everything and there is no link to the item taxed and the purpose of the revenue behind the tax.”

It couldn’t be more true.

People drive cars in Finland because few can afford to live in places near their workplace and public transportation is hard enough even when you live in downtown and commute elsewhere in downtown, but when you live out in bumfuckmäki and have to hoof it to nowheremäki it’s downright impossible…not to mention the 2 months in summer where if you wind up working you’ll be sitting for ages if you miss the occasional bus. Plus, if you work an 8+ hour workday, who wants to add 2-3 hours more just in commuting? Those commuter passes ain’t cheap, either.

I bought a 2000 Volvo wagon, used and in immaculate condition for under $10k when I moved back to the US. Even in taxachusetts my tax on the purchase was around $500. It’s a Volvo so I expect to be driving it until it turns to rust which, if my ’84 wagon which I drove for 16+ years is any guage, will be a long time from now.

I suppose it would be interesting to see more accountibility in taxation and where and how the money is spent (like the 60,000 euro ice sculpture in sumertime ( http://www.flickr.com/photos/hfb/31411151/ )), but it creeps me out when people seem so eager to pay 40-60% of their earnings in taxes and berate those who might try to get a better deal elsewhere. It reminds me of the cranky old ladies at the grocery who would berate me for buying the gorgeous cheap Spanish strawberries instead of the puny, molding and overpriced Finnish ones…..perhaps it is something in the water supply.

Oh, and Fred, the ciggies come from Russia and Estonia, too. Just hang around the market or the Alexander theatre on the end of Bulevardi and look for the Russian ladies to offer you cheap smokes. It never ceased to amuse me that the government talked a lot about these cig smugglers and how they were hard to find when they peddle their wares daily right in front of the Maistratti without making any effort to really conceal the transactions.

perhaps it is something in the water supply.

Finns are one of the “happiest” (most content) people on earth, on average that is. One of the reasons is this: take away 10 euros from a well-to-do person and she hardly notices it. Now give this 10 euros to a really poor person and she’ll be really happy. In other words, a happy society taxes the relatively “rich” and gives the money (or a service worth the money) to the relatively poor.

Of course there are limits on how much the rich can be taxed without them becoming too discontent. In the USA the limit is very low, probably because people are so stupid – not inherently but because the standard of schools is so catastrophically low – that they don’t understand this logic. In Finland the limit is high but I bet you’re not capable of understanding why because you’re a product of that schooling system.

But if you, hfb, with your racist ideas went away for good, that would make us even happier

“But if you, hfb, with your racist ideas went away for good, that would make us even happier ”
-another

Perhaps you need to consult a dictionary about what ‘racist’ means. Here’s a hint: it is not an epithet that deflects reasonable arguments.

Of course it’s reasonable to lessen these insane purchase taxes and direct taxation to actual usage. Gas should be very, very expensive, the more expensive the better. Probably the only good thing coming from this stubbornly planned Bush junta attack to Iran is that the oil price would probably skyrocket…

Ps. Punter, you have made me believe in re-incarnation – the glorious spirit of Finnpundit is again with us. Along with his unmatched intelligence and respect of empirical facts. Hurray.

Perhaps you need to consult a dictionary about what ‘racist’ means.

Perhaps you need to consult the archive of this blog in order to know about hfb’s “reasonable arguments”.

“Perhaps you need to consult the archive of this blog in order to know about hfb’s “reasonable arguments”.” – another

So now you’ve derailed the conversation twice in two posts. What does hfb’s other comments have to do with this one?

That’s right. Nothing.

“Of course it’s reasonable to lessen these insane purchase taxes and direct taxation to actual usage. Gas should be very, very expensive, the more expensive the better. Probably the only good thing coming from this stubbornly planned Bush junta attack to Iran is that the oil price would probably skyrocket…” -mjr

Renewed excessive taxation of gasoline would only hurt the huddled masses, per usual.

Here’s a suggestion:

Maybe a taxation of how much one drives would be better? Just like income tax declaration, one would submit how many kilometers at the end of the year and pay accordingly. The people who drive most (hence do the most damage to roads, environment and infrastructure) would pay the most. Those who need the car for occasional convenience and only drive occasionally and for short distances would pay less.

There could be some kind of electric monitor installed in cars that sends this mileage info to the tax office.

People would be encouraged to perhaps use public transport more often if they knew that in the long run, unnecessary trips would cost them.

As for the Bush thing:

As we saw after Katrina when the gas prices went through the roof across the globe, only the oil companies benefitted. People used just as much gas (if not more) and the oil companies made profits like never before. The price of gas will not deter those who think they can afford it. So I don’t think Bush should receive any credit for that (or anything actually).

People drive cars in Finland because few can afford to live in places near their workplace and public transportation is hard enough even when you live in downtown and commute elsewhere in downtown,

Of course you are talking about Helsinki, which is ridiculously overpriced compared to the rest of the country. (Then again, if you’re one of those “There’s no life outside Kehä III -people”, I’m probably wasting my breath)

I could afford to live smack in the middle of downtown Turku just fine as a student, and public transportation was not difficult at all. Neither is it in Helsinki, where I live now. Of course, most of the so-called difficulties people experience with these types of things tend to stem from their own attitudes and hang-ups.

I also bike in downtown Helsinki and Turku quite frequently, which must be a total shocker for a lot of people. It is to the fat-ass businessmen who walk on bike paths talking into their cell phone after having gotten out of their BMW. My bell-ringing has caused quite a few heart attacks. No mercy for the stupid.

Well, this is just one of those things that will have to happen. And which will happen anyway. Oil will run out, very soon we’ll be in peak oil territory. So the sooner we’ll start adapting the better. Yeah, oil companies are basically sabotaging all sensible initiatives, and will benefit on the short term, but we need to start action now, immediately, to stop this insane oil addiction. It will be painful but it must be done. And believe me, it will be painful, even more painful, if we try to postpone the inevitable.

What does hfb’s other comments have to do with this one?

Ah, so you want to know what hfb’s opinions have to do with hfb’s opinions. A very clever question indeed. Anyway, if you want to take seriously somebody who thinks that about every Finn is likely to be not only a drunk but a violent drunk, that you can’t give birth in Finland because the doctors and nurses may disappear all of a sudden to get drunk in the middle of the operation, that Finnish fashion consists of urine soaked pants and so no and on, be my guest. I just thought that its just fair to warn about her racist ideas before somebody takes her seriously.

“every Finn is likely to be not only a drunk but a violent drunk, that you can’t give birth in Finland because the doctors and nurses may disappear all of a sudden to get drunk in the middle of the operation, that Finnish fashion consists of urine soaked pants…” – another

Ah, so embellishing, twisting and exaggerating hfb’s past comments that have absolutely nothing to do with the price of autos or petrol is your way of progress?

I would take Richard Pryor’s opinions about Finland more seriously than yours. And he’s a dead comedian.

Stop raving, you silly boy.

Stop dicking around.

“It reminds me of the cranky old ladies at the grocery who would berate me for buying the gorgeous cheap Spanish strawberries instead of the puny, molding and overpriced Finnish ones…..perhaps it is something in the water supply.”

Silly you. The Spanish steroid-strawberries are devoid of any taste. Finnish strawberries actually taste like the berry is supposed to taste, probably because they haven’t been pumped full with all those nasty chemicals.

The ladies were just trying to help you. Sadly you were too full of that self-conceited arrogance of yours to take heed.

“If using cars is that bad, why not just ban them. Might as well ban mokki too, which would take away an excuse to have a car. Why not ban domestic airplane flights as well. The trains go to more places than planes do. Think of all the good this will bring to the environment. If not, then let the people have the cars and the gas to run them. Both taxes are regressive in that they hurt people more the poorer they are. Car ownership should be a right in a first-world country.”

You utterly missed the point. The point is to form an oil importers’ cartel to match the oil producers’ cartel.

“The Spanish steroid-strawberries are devoid of any taste. Finnish strawberries actually taste like the berry is supposed to taste, probably because they haven’t been pumped full with all those nasty chemicals.” – Åboy

Taste is relative and subjective. You cannot scold someone for preferring the flavor of one berry over another (or I suppose in Finland you can and are expected to). As for the “chemicals” injected into imported fruits, aren’t there EU guidelines regulating all of the EU? I was unaware that Finland was better than the rest of the EU. If Finnish berries are not filled with chemicals, then why, please inform me, why oh why isn’t LUOMO (organic) written next to the Finnish flag on those overpriced, oftentimes soggy fruits?

Because unless they are listed as organic, they arent any more “organic” than other fruits that are allowed to be sold here.

You can believe the marketing campaigns, you can like your Finnish berries for all I care, but don’t tell me what I should like.

“that you can’t give birth in Finland because the doctors and nurses may disappear all of a sudden to get drunk in the middle of the operation”

That actually did happen to us, but not because they were going to get drunk. It was a result of the chronic understaffing in the Finnish healthcare system.(which is a result of the 3rd world like wages)

another: “Anyway, if you want to take seriously somebody who thinks that about every Finn is likely to be not only a drunk but a violent drunk, that you can’t give birth in Finland because the doctors and nurses may disappear all of a sudden to get drunk in the middle of the operation, that Finnish fashion consists of urine soaked pants and so no and on, be my guest. I just thought that its just fair to warn about her racist ideas before somebody takes her seriously.”

I don’t think that’s a fair characterization of hfb…a funny one perhaps —but not a fair one.

Now they even propose the humble Finnish strawberry is so much better, not to mention the tomatoes and cucumber and potatoes and….. The first sign of an overly powerful centralized State sysytem is the brainwashing of it’s citizens into believing everything they’re told without question. Ring a bell anyone?
As for mjr’s “the oil is almost out”, far from it my friend. What with all that formerly unaccessable Soviet oil now in the hands of money loving capitalists, I forecast a return to cheap oil days sooner rather than later.

“As for mjr’s “the oil is almost out”, far from it my friend. What with all that formerly unaccessable Soviet oil now in the hands of money loving capitalists, I forecast a return to cheap oil days sooner rather than later. ” – Punter

Why do you always screw up a reasonable comment with a completely ridiculous one? Oil is killing the planet. If you think that the oil companies are going to reduce prices out of concern for oil thirsty cretins like yourself (apparently), then you are out of your mind.

The fruit and veg thing was quite spot on, though. Shoulda stopped there.

Punter, one wonders what you think of evolution? Are you also a theocon, perhaps ID or primitive Creationism? It is not easy to estimate peak oil starting point, it certainly has not arrived yet, but it is a geological, not liberal or social democratic, fact that oil will run out fairly soon. Considering all the other aspects of the case it is simply sensible to take quick steps to end our addiction in a controlled way before we have to go cold turkey in a very chaotic and disruptive conditions. There is nothing particularly ideological in this unless you think that it is ideological to say that the market place will think that the next quarter is always more important than the next century, so someone else should take the responsibility for more long term preparations.

Btw, hfb surely is no racist – though she once did argue that national statistics are not fair for the USA because they take into account all those black and brown people. I kid you not, but that’s far removed from racism, though not from utter silliness.

“she once did argue that national statistics are not fair for the USA because they take into account all those black and brown people.”

Actually, I might have been the one who said that

Seriously though, I do believe it’s a valid point. You can’t compare the aftereffects from 400-years of American slavery—not to mention the ensuing discrimination that only ended about 2-decades ago—with anything we have here in Finland. Not to mention the proportionate size differences. Our Mogadishu Avenue doesn’t compare. Then there are the huge number of recent Mexican farm-labor immigrants……

Anyway, didn’t mean to derail, but I’ve read that oil is not running out anytime soon—we’ve got about 150-years left. Unfortunately this prediction will keep new, more environmentally friendly technologies from emerging.

Nevertheless, the automobile problem is something for the World to solve as a whole. You can’t start by punishing one of its weakest, most sparsely populated nations—i.e. Finland. Clearly, our main goal is survival first.

hfb surely is no racist

It’s possible that she doesn’t realize that she is, I give you that. But labelling any “race” the way she has labeled Finns would be immediately regarded as racist by anybody, probably even by herself. Now, it’s possible that she things that we are violent drunks and what not because of our culture. In that case she’s not strictly speaking a racist. Then again it’s possible that she thinks we’re violent drunks because of genetic reasons. Who knows …

But enough about this depressing lady. Punter makes sweeping generalizations, too, but as far as I can tell he just thinks the system is hopeless not – necessarily? – the people. That’s a perfectly healthy attitude, well, at least argumentatively while perhaps not healthwise.

Åboy – “The Spanish steroid-strawberries are devoid of any taste. Finnish strawberries actually taste like the berry is supposed to taste, probably because they haven’t been pumped full with all those nasty chemicals.”

Now that’s funny….Finland has plenty of nasty chemicals even not including all the paper mills being exported to the third world. I know the propaganda machine tells everyone the food in Finland is purest, etc., but after driving around Finland and seeing the deforestation and the smokestacks I’m not convinced any food is pure.

And…Another. Given that I’ve not seen a single violent, pooping, pissing or passing out in the street drunk since I left the so-called happiest nation in the EU, another baseless claim that mere observation doesn’t support, Of course, if I did see any I could just drive over them in my Volvo now instead of having to plot an evasive course on foot. I’m willing to stand behind the idea that it is cultural. Maybe it’s genetic, too. Of course, the government would rather have you believe that drinking is only caused by the mistake of lowering the alcohol tax. I’m pretty sure that this is also a commonly held opinion in Finland by Finns given the reaction of disbelief the midwife had when my husband answered the drinking question with ‘infrequently’. She turned to me, smiled and said I got myself a rare ‘good one.’ If Finland is such a happy, smart population base, why do you need warning labels on the alcohol bottles?

And props to Dave the Rave for making me giggle at the Richard Pryor comment.

So the co2 emissions from producing a hybrid car would be paid off in five years? I think that’s a very good deal then. If I buy a car, I plan to drive it at least 20 years if possible.

– Actualy. It takes five years of savings from driving a hybrid to save enough to compensate for the added cost of buying a hybrid. Also, your hybrid won’t last 20 years. You are lucky if you get 10 years out of it. Keep in mind that they car has two power systems in it, and that much more can go wrong with it.

Oh, and Fred, the ciggies come from Russia and Estonia, too. Just hang around the market or the Alexander theatre on the end of Bulevardi and look for the Russian ladies to offer you cheap smokes. It never ceased to amuse me that the government talked a lot about these cig smugglers and how they were hard to find when they peddle their wares daily right in front of the Maistratti without making any effort to really conceal the transactions.

– When I was first at HKKK the busses from Russia were nearby. Half of them were selling vodka. Pretty funny watching Finns and Russians make deals.

Another tax that slows the conversion to renewable energy; the energy tax itself. Power is taxed at the point that it is generated. So if you go and power your house with wind-power, you still owe the Government for the energy you produced, even if you are not connected to the national power grid.

“I left the so-called happiest nation in the EU, another baseless claim that mere observation doesn’t support.”

Shhhhhhhh!

Quiet, you’ll ruin everything if you tell us it’s not true. Isolation is Finland’s secret to happiness, ya know.

Sort of reminds me of the Allegory of the Cave (Republic by Plato). The guy was chained in a cave all his life; any concept of happiness, contentment, sadness, etc. was limited to the environment within those surrounding walls, including the shadows that appeared thereon.

Upon being freed, he just couldn’t believe the wonders of the world outside. Perhaps reminiscent of what Finnish expats experience

hfb, you sort of held back a bit didn’t you? But thanks for proving my point anyway. And it’s perfectly in line with your racist attitude that you can’t accept that “those uncultured, stupid, racist and violent drunks” could actually feel pretty content with their lives – much more so than the Americans by the way – so the polls are, have to be wrong. “Of course I know better than these brainwashed idiots how they feel deep down!”

But hey, you haven’t lost your ability to invent anecdotes. How convenient that you happened to consult this particular – and strangely unprofessional – midwife who thought that about all Finnish men are drunks! Well perhaps _she_ was drunk … What’s next? Did your pool boy tell an hour ago how he just was here and saw just miserable, unhappy people?

By the way, your child is apparently going to be half Finnish. What a depressing thought, don’t you think. Then again with your superior American genes thrown in, probably he’s gonna be just a half drunkard

Quiet, you’ll ruin everything if you tell them it’s not true.

Here’s another nut case who thinks that all those international “happiness polls” are forged by Finnish authorities. I’m beginning to suspect that the number of idiot Finns is indeed alarmingly high …

Upon being freed, he just couldn’t believe the wonders of the world outside. Perhaps reminiscent of what Finnish expats experience

Oh, thank you for these words of wisdom, you great philosopher! It’s an privilege to hear from somebody who has been abroad. I mean, abroad! Sounds almost to good to be true for a little commoner like me who just once has been to Pori and thought it was a world-class city.

By the way, you’re a joke, man.

another—Judging by your emotion-fueled tendency to rely on personal insults, can I assume that you are one of the few Finns who supplied negative responses on the “Happiness Survey.”

It would conflict with any brainwashing theories of course…..

hfb is absolutely right we are drunk even on TV

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXu65NYmA-k
Remontti-Reiska has had a few too many drinks.

Seriously hfb anecdotal evidence is no evidence, or do you accept that yanks are murderers and torturers. USA is a culture of murder, do you accept this statment as it’s as valid as is yours.

“Seriously hfb anecdotal evidence is no evidence, or do you accept that yanks are murderers and torturers.”

Well, to a certain extent it’s true; America has quite a few murders committed each year. And, as a nation, it does torture people. But obviously we can’t apply that trait to each individual American. There are probably just as many who think it’s a bad quality as those who think it’s good.

Regarding drunken behavior, I don’t think it’s so horrible. As long as it’s not destructive or harmful to others, I don’t mind. But I guess hfb doesn’t see it that way. One thing is for sure: I rather enjoy her stories about it

92. Kristina of Espoo
“Upon being freed, he just couldn’t believe the wonders of the world outside. Perhaps reminiscent of what Finnish expats experience”

Yes there are utterly unbelievable, profoundly wrong, unsustainable and inequitable things to be found in the outside world. While there are still problems within by so many measures Finns have much they can be thankfull for and satisfied with.

Judging by your emotion-fueled tendency to rely on personal insults

And you didn’t insult me by telling that I’m a brainwashed idiot who couldn’t tell whether he was happy or not because he’s never been abroad? Give me a break. You’re so full of yourself that you that you really think that you are far superior to all other Finns. Otherwise you wouldn’t write like you do. And do you really think that hfb didn’t insult me by suggesting that I and my kids might be inherently violent drunks and what not?

By the way, I’m not. How strange … But surely _you_ must be, otherwise that would be beyond any likelihood, don’t you think? Surely you must be one of those public poopsters hfb so fondly writes about.

And I’m not “emotionally fueled” or insulting. I just like to play around with people who are full of shit. (See, the smiley means that it’s all ok, no hard feelings, just having a bit fun, just like you do.)

Well, I’ve lived a very big part of my life abroad and have chosen to spend the rest of it in Finland. I have experienced the joys of Central Europe and the United States, even Sweden, to a full extent and still choose Finland.

I guess I’m just a big frigging weirdo. Then again, back in school I was one of those annoying kids who happily hung out in the so-called “unpopular” crowd and thought that the so-called “popular” kids were a bunch of boring dumbasses. I still think so, BTW.

hfb, were you a cheerleader in high school by any chance?

Given that I’ve not seen a single violent, pooping, pissing or passing out in the street drunk since I left the so-called happiest nation in the EU, another baseless claim that mere observation doesn’t support, Of course, if I did see any I could just drive over them in my Volvo now instead of having to plot an evasive course on foot.

I know. The horror of having to walk around with the commoners! At least a good old Volvo is safe enough (if you believe the Swedish propaganda) to provide you an armour against all of those other people that think they’re at the same level with you.

Seriously, after having spent time in the Paris metro and having talked to my friends who have lived in cities like London and Kuala Lumpur, these stories about the overwhelming dirtyness of Helsinki just make me laugh.

“And you didn’t insult me by telling that I’m a brainwashed idiot…?”

I did? You know, there’s a difference between making general comments about a society and using personal insults. You can be sure that comments I make are of the general nature, not personal.

You know, there’s a difference between making general comments about a society and using personal insults.

Please reread how you responded to what I wrote. Unless you still can’t see how you made fun of me – well, let’s try to be civil – you’re not exactly on the smarter side.

Anyone who says that cities in Finland are not frequented by winos is a liar. They attack you in the metro, they yell at you on the tram, they don’t ride the buses because then they’d have to buy tickets. They piss on monuments, they get escorted out of Alko stores and often make a nusiance of themselves otherwise, too.

Either you are blind or you are liars. Let’s hope for the former.

Yeah, Finns don’t have a problem with alcohol…

An estimated 6% of expectant mothers have a substance abuse problem, according to the Finnish Medical Journal. Women who abuse drugs and alcohol give birth to around 3600 children a year.

The article in the latest edition of Suomen Lääkärilehti (The Finnish Medical Journal) points to significant benefits from treatment for substance abuse among expectant mothers at special polyclinics. However, the authors argue that if the mother does not recover from substance abuse during her pregnancy, social welfare officials should help the child by taking it into protective care as soon as it is born.

http://www.yle.fi/news/left/id55787.html

I see from the last comments that the discussion has turned into a personal matter and I won’t bother to read through all comments so far and see if anyone has suggested what I’m going to suggest now:
I’m sticking to the idea that high car-taxes forces people, especially poor people, to drive around in old cars that consume more gasoline per day than a new car does per week (okay, a small exaggeration but still…)- not very economical and definitely not very environmentally friendly. So why not make cars that consume less than say 6L/100km extremely low tax cars and then raise the taxes a couple of percentage per liter/100km that the car consumes. That will make the environmentally friendly cars something of a bargain for most people and those who necessarily must drive around in big SUVs pay more, both for the car and in general taxes, and we could also say that the high taxes on big cars come from the fact that their mass is poses a greater danger towards fellow road-users and pedestrians.

105.
“#

Anyone who says that cities in Finland are not frequented by winos is a liar.”

It’s not really a phenomenon unique to Finnish cities, take winos & junkies in US, UK & German, cities, ice skaters or petrol sniffers in Mexican, Australian or South African cities and so on….

Anyone who says that cities in Finland are not frequented by winos is a liar.

I never said that. All I’ve ever said is that anyone who says that winos/other people acting in a disorderly fashion on the street is a strictly Finnish phenomenon is blind, stupid, or living on another planet. Or all of the above. Take your pick.

I hate winos and drunkards and drug-addicts with the fire of a thousand suns. But this being a strictly Finnish thing? Please, are you trying to kill me with laughter?

Okay boys and girls and especially you, Kristian:

There’s a small piece about Finnish economy (with appropriate OECD stats, naturally) on our modest attempt at a weblog, Global Economy Matters, available here, and accompanied with an article on history and politics here.

As for my own blog, the election climax has been actively covered by my guest blogger Ari (aka a lamb with no guiding light).

Heh, wasn’t there this letter to the editor in HS few days ago, where some professor praised how low the social barriers are in Helsinki with nightshelter for alcoholics in Eira and some rich neighbourhood in eastern Helsinki. Perhaps they hide the bums better in other cities.

So hfb is it okay for me to say that you are a product of the culture of murderers? Still waiting for the answer.
BTW it must be hard for your husband and daughter to live with you what with them being the products of culture of drunks and street poopers and their wife/mother despising them and their origins.

#107

That is actually a pretty good idea and one which I think could work as well. Although many BMW fans out there might object as it’s all about winning the start in red lights

And in addition (I myself drive a peugeot 106, 1996, which spends about 6l/100km) the cars that spend a little less tend to be smaller and hence easier to find parking place for

To 112.:

If hfb is the product of the culture of murderers then you are the product of generations of insane, alcoholic, emotionally-deprivated, sport suit wearing, dentally challenged, vegetable-xenophobic, salmiak sucking, self-loathing, country-bumpkin-redneck, street pooping, metro-riding-axe-wielding-psychopaths.

“”"Within Finland I have to travel 90 klm. everyday one way
Why live 90 kms from where you work? Thick cunt.
Comment by Anonymous — Fri, Mar 16th, 2007 @ 4:27 pm “”"”

Times like this its better post and stay anonymous for fear of a physical beating name calling ? yeh, I would stay anonymous also ? thick cunt ? I am what I eat.. yeh,,,better to stay anonymous, its called safety

Yes I choose to use as much possible gas as I can afford,,I love freedom to drive anywhere I choose…

And yes, I use my car to got 1 kilometer or even half a kilometer…its called “love of driving”. And actually I have nothing better to spend my money on, I have all I need. I make a good income. So I drive everywhere I choose… green house ? PLEASE, its all a BS hype. oh, and I will drive as long as I physically can.100 meters or 1000 kilometers..I LOVE FREEDOM !

and I let the car Idle,,,all the time,,at gas stations waiting at post, everywhere..I love to get into a warm car.

LIFE IS SHORT AND GREAT, YOU DON’T LIKE MY GAS CONSUMPTION ? TO BAD…HAHAHAH

“Unless you still can’t see how you made fun of me – well, let’s try to be civil….”

In post #96, I merely speculated that your own happiness contrasts with results from the “Happiness Survey.” And I did not say that you are brainwashed. You’ll see in ¤96 that it’s the direct opposite.

And all of this was in response to…. “By the way, you’re a joke, man.” and “Here’s another nut case….”

Anything that I wrote before was not directed at you personally. But maybe I wrote it in a way that you felt personally offended? It wasn’t my intention.

Mikael: “I’m sticking to the idea that high car-taxes forces people, especially poor people, to drive around in old cars that consume more gasoline per day than a new car does per week [...] not very economical and definitely not very environmentally friendly. ”

I see two effects here:

1).This is the Finnish concept of recirculating money, as Fred Fry mentioned in an earlier post. Poor people pay much more in auto taxes—since used cars are taxed higher—therefore the rest of us need to supply poor people with more transfer payments so they can afford to live.

2).Insofar as environmental friendliness or lack thereof, it makes no difference when considering used cars. That’s because they’ll be driven somewhere by *somebody* no matter what. Ultimately, it doesn’t matter whether it’s a Finn, Russian, Czech or German. The car will be driven until it dies a natural (or unnatural) death. Same amount of pollution in the end.

We can argue that’s it’s better to junk the old inefficient cars, but then we’ll create new emissions by virtue of building new ones…not to mention the environmental cost of disposing the old ones prematurely.

Mikael: “So why not make cars that consume less than say 6L/100km extremely low tax cars and then raise the taxes a couple of percentage per liter/100km that the car consumes.”

I agree, but only for new cars. Or make the tax regressive according to age. Same reason as above.

Also, I agree with your point about SUV’s and danger to other road users. I’d rather not see SUV’s in Europe.

#118

Another point….

3). By encouraging the purchasing of new cars—albeit more efficient ones—then we ensure that more capital flows out of Finland.

Whereas I don’t want to see any protectionism whatsoever, I also don’t think spending of capital on imports should be encouraged artificially. The policy should be neutral in that regard.

Wow, haven’t we had a fun day without the punter. Dave the rave, why was the comment ridiculous? I simply stated a view that with all of the oil held in the former USSR now reachable by foreign companies and with likely investment in the pipelines and infrastructure we can likely look forward to more oil flowing from new fields. Now I didn’t say was that good or bad, that’s another matter, just that “new oil” is highly likely. Okay, it’s not new in that it’s been in the ground since chicken was an egg but new in terms of the world market. Ridiculous?
As for mjr and wondering if I know of evolution. Yes, I’ve heard of it. Maybe if you read and considered my posts, then did the same to yours you might well ask yourself this question. You seemingly think that change is a bad thing. Every time it’s mentioned you bag it. Keep this, don’t change that. Now I simply said more oil is likely in the world market due to the opening up of massive fields previously off limits to the West. That’s looking forward. I also said earlier that we should lok ahead and develop a way to make it cheaper to buy new more environmentally friendly, safe and efficient cars to limit the costs to society. Now if that is not looking ahead and somehow sounds primitive to you then I’m sorry. I’m sorry for us all that have to constantly live in such a stuffy and judgemental society.
BTW Dave, the Spanish red peppers in the shops at the moment are to die for

Hey Åboy, you are still alive. Forget your silly “The Spanish steroid-strawberries are devoid of any taste” propaganda and answer the question I left you on the previous post. I’m really turning blue. HELP

DAVE THE RAVE
“If hfb is the product of the culture of murderers then you are the product of generations of insane, alcoholic, emotionally-deprivated, sport suit wearing, dentally challenged, vegetable-xenophobic, salmiak sucking, self-loathing, country-bumpkin-redneck, street pooping, metro-riding-axe-wielding-psychopaths.”

That was exactly my point. hfb claims that finns are like this, I just wanted to know if she accepts the statement that americans are the product of the culture of murder, torture and, etc. as it is as valid argument as is her’s. If she doesn’t she’s a hypocrit and a racist.

Note my comment #97

“hfb is absolutely right we are drunk even on TV

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXu65NYmA-k
Remontti-Reiska has had a few too many drinks.

Seriously hfb anecdotal evidence is no evidence, or do you accept that yanks are murderers and torturers. USA is a culture of murder, do you accept this statment as it’s as valid as is yours.”

Look at all these happy people spending their Saturday in front of their computer claiming an injustice weilded against the happy Finns of the world. LOL.

Oh, Dave, nice comeback and yeah, public displays of alcoholic pregnant women and women with babies is sadly seen with some frequency. There’s nothing like watching a very pregnant woman stagger in downtown while waiting for a bus and not seeing even one person step up to help or say something. There was once a woman in the park with all the drunks with her newborn in the pram and amazingly one of the women in the dog park called the police on her. But, hey, all the domestic abuse and fetal alcohol stats must be a vicious lie. Maybe the parliament should start taxing these sorts even more and reward people with healthy(er) lifestyles with a lower tax rate.

“But, hey, all the domestic abuse and fetal alcohol stats must be a vicious lie.”

And yet we aren’t claiming that all americans are murderers and tortures just because the statistics say otherwise unlike you are.
So mrs. sweeping generalizations how is the life back there in uberhumanville

Fred Fry:

“- Actualy. It takes five years of savings from driving a hybrid to save enough to compensate for the added cost of buying a hybrid. Also, your hybrid won’t last 20 years. You are lucky if you get 10 years out of it. Keep in mind that they car has two power systems in it, and that much more can go wrong with it.”

How much does it take to make ECOLOGICAL savings? After all, that’s the REAL POINT of switching to a hybrid. Not economic savings, although these are the ones used to motivate selfish car-owners.

hfb:

“Given that I’ve not seen a single violent, pooping, pissing or passing out in the street drunk since I left the so-called happiest nation in the EU, another baseless claim that mere observation doesn’t support,”

Either you haven’t been around, or you’re just lying. I saw some of the worst cases of completely messed up drunks (COMPLETLY ignored by passers-by) in downtown NYC, the last time I was there.

Mikael:

“So why not make cars that consume less than say 6L/100km extremely low tax cars and then raise the taxes a couple of percentage per liter/100km that the car consumes. That will make the environmentally friendly cars something of a bargain for most people and those who necessarily must drive around in big SUVs pay more, both for the car and in general taxes, and we could also say that the high taxes on big cars come from the fact that their mass is poses a greater danger towards fellow road-users and pedestrians.”

This might be the way to go, but the autovero merely prolongs the life-time of cars, whilst the bensavero punishes the vasters. And the consumption of a 10 year old car really isn’t that much greater than for a brand new – similar – car.

Kristian:

“That’s because they’ll be driven somewhere by *somebody* no matter what. Ultimately, it doesn’t matter whether it’s a Finn, Russian, Czech or German. The car will be driven until it dies a natural (or unnatural) death. Same amount of pollution in the end.”

Simply not true (afaik). I don’t think you can provide us with any statistics that show that old cars travel around the globe in such a way as you claim. I think cars are scapped (and not sold further) at a faster pace in countries with faster car turn-around times. One reason being, that the market of used spare parts is lucrative (due to auto manufactereurs greed). So byuing an old car is lucrative, if you’re able to take it to pieces, and sell the pieces to needy ones.

All of this, is naturally the result of auto manufactereurs selling crap for an expensive price. After investing time & money at making the culture car-borne.

“And the consumption of a 10 year old car really isn’t that much greater than for a brand new – similar – car.” Where do you get that idea from. Not only has there been a significant reduction in fuel consumptionin the past 10 years but also an even greater reduction in the level and type of emissions (not to mention the recyclable content of materials.) All in all, the modern car (3 years old) is a far more efficient beast and far less harmful on the environment. We shouldbe rewarded and not punished for buying them.

I seem to remeber reading and seeing a documentary about the high number of Toyota Hiaces exported from Finland across to Africa every year and how quickly the locals there lap them up. Just like us and the cars we’re forced to import from Germany. Does anyone else recall seeing this?

How about writing a blog post about the upcoming elections?

“How about writing a blog post about the upcoming elections?” – Passer-by

Possibly because it’s more fun making shit up.

Kristian:

“Whereas I don’t want to see any protectionism whatsoever, I also don’t think spending of capital on imports should be encouraged artificially. The policy should be neutral in that regard.”

That is one of the points behind the autovero in the first place. Your thick-sculledness is amptly proven by the above. It doesn’t really matter whether a finn buys a used or new car from abroad. It’s import nevertheless. Why should one be treated differently than the other? Your scheme is simply to build up a general car life-cycle similar to that one in Germany. The point in support for a longer one is ecology + what youd say above. But with your idiotic scheme we would simply choose

1) a shorter life-cycle, which is ecologically bad

2) an older car park, which is bad for safety

3) a bigger amount of cash outflow, which is bad for the economy

This is the scheme you have been stubbornly presenting as ideal, simply out of your own self-interest. As you drive between Germany and Finland you would be a likely “importer” of these used cars, and now you want to get public support for your personal import business.

Learn to sail, and import sailing boats instead. Much more ecological. But I guess you’re not able to that.

Punter:

“Where do you get that idea from. Not only has there been a significant reduction in fuel consumptionin the past 10 years but also an even greater reduction in the level and type of emissions (not to mention the recyclable content of materials.)”

The usage hasn’t gone down significantly. Afaik, the Opel Kadett (model -90) I used didn’t use any more fuel than my current car (model -06). Don’t know about other emissions, but I doubt (?) the emissions used in building the newer cars make up that of using the old one.

“I seem to remeber reading and seeing a documentary about the high number of Toyota Hiaces exported from Finland across to Africa every year and how quickly the locals there lap them up. Just like us and the cars we’re forced to import from Germany. Does anyone else recall seeing this?”

I don’t. But nevertheless, there is a big market for used spares. Having owned a 90 Kadett, I can tell you. Or go have a look at motonet. These parts are – I assume – not imported. They come from cars brought to car dealers as “exchange”. They become spare parts quicker in Germany than in Finland. Due to the life-cycle. Due to the fact that second hand values are bigger. That’s what I believe.

Thomas, I think if I know Kristian from his posts that you’ve just opened yourself up for the KO blow.
Dave, any further comments on my previous post to you? #120 Interested in your opinion ad the red peppers out your way….

An Opel Kadett from the year 1990 not using more than an 06 model? Come on. When you weigh up the engine size, hp and torque, drivability etc you can not tell me that 2 comparible cars, 16 years apart are similar in terms of consumption and emissions. Simply, you can’t. Don’t take my word for it, no in fact DO. YOU ARE WRONG:

Being such “an old car”, you sure you’re not comparing imp gallons to metric litres/ 100 km???

Protectionism is stupid!

Sky high car taxes are a protectionist measure designed to divert expenditure away from cars towards domestically produced items, such as over-priced rotten stawberries and other veg., grown in a harsh climate at tremendous cost.

Feel sorry for the Finns.

They actually beleive the bullshit they are told by their “Big Brother” government: Yes, all foreign products is produced using poisonous fertilisers!

From my infrequent visits to the shithole that is Finland I can’t believe how naive the locals are. They think that Finnish chicken and beef are superior to the imported substitutes.

One question for my Finnish pals:

You can choose to eat an imported organic beef steak. The cow lived in a country where it can live outdoors eating grass every month of the year.

Or you can eat a non-organic steak that came from a cow that lived indoors for 6 months of the year eating hay.

Finns choose the later just because the plastic pack that contains the steak has a Finnish flag on it, and it costs more too!

Feel sorry for the Finns!

They don’t even know what really goes on in their own country. They aren’t interested. They just enjoy their MYTHS!!!

Look at the statistics! High rates of tax cannot be defended on environmental grounds. On a per capita basis the Finns are one of the most polluting nations in Europe, much higher than Sweden or the UK (It’s pointless to compare yourself against the USA because environmentally they’re in a different league)

One final point to my Finnish chums. You all think that Finland is great; superior to other countries. Well, if that’s so how come so few foregners come to live in your version of paradise?

“Look at the statistics! LOW rates of tax cannot be defended on environmental grounds.”

USA, CHINA both have low taxation and what do you get the biggest polluters in the world

Heh, I diverted my expenditures and now I’m driving to work by strawberry.

“Well, if that’s so how come so few foregners come to live in your version of paradise?”

I’m home here, they are not.

Punter: “I think if I know Kristian from his posts that you’ve just opened yourself up for the KO blow.”

Punter, when Thomas starts connecting autovero (in its current state) with environmental benefits, we know the purpose of his argument: Support overtaxation any way possible

_

Just waiting to hear the connection between overpriced Alko and the environment……

_

By the way, can anyone tell me, is autovero covered by insurance? That is, if you crash your newly purchased car, then do you have to pay those many thousands of Euros all over again upon buying a replacement car? Or does insurance cover it?

Punter:

“An Opel Kadett from the year 1990 not using more than an 06 model? Come on. When you weigh up the engine size, hp and torque, drivability etc you can not tell me that 2 comparible cars, 16 years apart are similar in terms of consumption and emissions. Simply, you can’t. Don’t take my word for it, no in fact DO. YOU ARE WRONG:”

While you’re at it, show me the facts. If you please. I say there’s no big difference. When I say big difference, I mean figures like 20%. And this is an age difference of 15 years.

And while you’re at it, show me a believable estimate that shows, why a -90 Kadett should be out of business. Because that’s what you and mr. Autovero are proposing.

Kristian:

“Punter, when Thomas starts connecting autovero (in its current state) with environmental benefits, we know the purpose of his argument: Support overtaxation any way possible”

When you talk about environment we know, it’s not from an environmental purpose.

When I say, I believe that the autovero is a GOOD THING IF IT MEANS THAT ENVIRONMENTAL DAMAGES ARE MINIMISED, I’m sincere. GET IT. Now you can claim whatever you like, but I think I’ve given straight answers to why I support the autovero. E.g. based on ecology and economy. Unlike you, you admitted car-importer, whose only reason for bringing this autovero up time after time, is your own self-interest.

Hypocrite.

Per capita China produces less than one tenth of the polltion produced by an average Finn

Fool!

NO you are the fool USA produces 25% procent of worlds pollution and China is picking up. You better hope that they are not going to pursue the american way of life.

Now go cry nancy boy and grow some pubic hair.

Anyone who is against a high gas tax out of supporting a market free of regulation is a fool. Suppliers of petroleum are already keeping the price of their product artificially high with their cartel. They’ve been at it for decades. Any idiot can see that the West should’ve formed a buyers’ cartel to avoid being ripped off by the towelheads.

Amazing how the mention of drunk pregnant women and moms and domestic violence got folks back on topic.

Anonymous #124 =“And yet we aren’t claiming that all americans are murderers and tortures just because the statistics say otherwise unlike you are. So mrs. sweeping generalizations how is the life back there in uberhumanville”. The lack of debate and language skills by most commenters on this blog always amuses me. What was I claiming unlike you what? Nevermind, I’m sure the comeback will be equally as unintelligible. How is it back home? It’s great. The Finnish in-laws came to visit last week and, while they’re nice people and I get on ok with them, the visit reminded me of why I left and am happy to raise the child as an American. A random nice old lady in the grocery store gushed more to me over my cute spawn than my Finnish in-laws did in a week. Yes, it’s good to be home.

“Per capita China produces less than one tenth of the polltion produced by an average Finn” — Wow, if that’s true, Finland is in some serious trouble given that China is quickly becoming a toxic wasteland due to industrialization without much if any regulation. Punter, I believe the stat you are thinking of is that Finns top the ‘environmental footprint’ per capita in the EU due to all the logging.

Thomas — I don’t live in NYC, a place as dirty and as urban a place one might imagine if the population of Finland were stuffed into Helsinki. My point was that I can walk my pram in an urban area without seeing the same parade of drunks I did in Helsinki. Maybe having to be sober for all of last summer made the difference as I’m a drinker and I’ve staggered home on more than a few occasions in Helsinki but I never really noticed just how many drunks, career drunks, there were before.

Kristian -” Just waiting to hear the connection between overpriced Alko and the environment……”

That’s easy! If you tax booze to the point where teens and winos being are unable to afford to hang and drink in the park, the parks will no longer be used like an open sewer and dumpster which will save the parks department millions every year and return the habitat to the seagulls.

Thomas “When I say, I believe that the autovero is a GOOD THING IF IT MEANS THAT ENVIRONMENTAL DAMAGES ARE MINIMISED, I’m sincere. GET IT. Now you can claim whatever you like, but I think I’ve given straight answers to why I support the autovero.”

But Thomas, your answers are fundamentally flawed. There is no way you can possibly link auto vero maintaining high prices and therefore keeping us in polluting old bombs to LIMITING ENVIRONMENTAL DAMAGE. It just doesn’t add up. Think about it logically and clearly, from the materials used to poisons emitted, from the fuel consumed to the safety of the occupants and pedestrians, there is no way one can justify the continued use of aged vehicles in a modern society. Least of all on environmental grounds.

hfb (about the Finns and Americans): “I’ve not seen a single violent, pooping, pissing or passing out in the street drunk since I left the so-called happiest nation in the EU, another baseless claim that mere observation doesn’t support, [...] Maybe it’s genetic, too.”

I know that the USA is probably the most racist society within the western world but it still manages to surprise me how open some of them are about it. And in a typical racist manner, it pisses hfb off when the ones she is classifying on racist grounds dare to stand up against her.

I hope that Phil or anybody who has the power to stop it, won’t let this racist and her friends like “dave the rave” carry on with their ugly ways. I have to leave this depressingly uncivilized blog behind now.

By the way, when is your little boozer due, dear

If somebody know hfb’s real name it would probably be fair to let her poor husband know to what kind of a person he’s married.

hfb is quite open about her real name. I know it, but it is not my place to give it out. And IIRC, her husband was eager to leave Finland, too.

HFB:
A random nice old lady in the grocery store gushed more to me over my cute spawn than my Finnish in-laws did in a week. Yes, it’s good to be home.

Well, mileage varies. One thing that has always bothered me about your posts is that you seem to think that everybody thinks like you or expects the same things from life as you do. This is not the case. Not everybody wants the suburban house and the Volvo, and overwhelming attention and approval from strangers.

Personally I feel very uncomfortable when strangers approach me on the street with overwhelming compliments. Last summer it felt so fantastic to come back to Finland and not have every third dude on the street making some comment about my height. I love the fact that I can just pay my purchases at the grocery store without having to stand 10 extra minutes in line while the cashier wants to guess which country I’m from. Maybe you find that kind of behavior flattering, I find it intruding and obnoxious.

People are different. Personally, at this point in my life, I’d also rather marry Matti Vanhanen than move to the ‘burbs and buy a frigging Volvo.

“I hope that Phil or anybody who has the power to stop it, won’t let this racist and her friends like “dave the rave” carry on with their ugly ways. I have to leave this depressingly uncivilized blog behind now.” – another (excuse)

Just last night, on the way home from work I was accosted by a drunken man who had a “taskupullo” of 60 percent hooch in his pocket. He wasn’t terribly smelly, but his speech was so gravelly and slurred that I spoke better Finnish than him! He said he was an engineer, I think, and offered me a belt.

I declined.

“People are different. Personally, at this point in my life, I’d also rather marry Matti Vanhanen than move to the ‘burbs and buy a frigging Volvo.” – Anzi

Wouldn’t marrying Mr. V. entail exactly that? And for the record, hfb was saying that she was lacking in emotional support from her in-laws which are Finnish.

You don’t agree it is strange to have complete strangers swooning over your baby much more than the actual grandparents?

How tall are you? I’m just dying to know.

Vanhanen is tall too, maybe you have some kind of crush?

It’s amazing how aggressive some people get when they realize that not everybody shares their opinions.

You don’t agree it is strange to have complete strangers swooning over your baby much more than the actual grandparents?

It depends on the type of swooning. I know my parents don’t exactly swoon, gush, and flail over my nephews but that doesn’t mean that they don’t love them. They hold them, kiss them, play with them, tell them bedtime stories, sing to them, hug them, and tell them they’re beautiful and adorable. We talk about my nephews constantly with my parents, about how sweet and wonderful they are. but you won’t see my mom going “Oh my GOD the baby is SOOOOO ADOOOORABLE!!!!!” in public. Thank God.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but “gushing” to me means a high-pitched voice, lots of arm-waving, and a lot of “cootchie cootchie coos” and cheek-pinching. I hate that. I hated that as a kid when strangers did it to me, I hate it as an adult when I see strangers do it to children.

I’m about 15 cm taller than the average Finnish woman.

“Correct me if I’m wrong, but “gushing” to me means a high-pitched voice, lots of arm-waving, and a lot of “cootchie cootchie coos” and cheek-pinching.” – anzi

I think I need to correct you. Gushing can be quite reserved, ie no extraordinary arm action and within normal voice registers.

If I get hfb’s estimation of her in-laws correctly, she meant that the expression of emotion by Finns can be strained at times.

Take for examply my (late) father in law. He was around 70 when our kid was born and I can’t recall a single time he played, bounced on his knee or even hugged the kid. Completely opposite of him was his wife who fawned and yelped over his cuteness… However he was a war vet and somewhat a grump in general and they were both Finnish-Swedish, so this might be an aberration.

My father, on the other hand, who is from the States is more than googly eyed and enthusiastic about the grandkids, as is my mother (who also happens to be Finnish-Swedish).

Is it so very hard for you folks to see that some Finns actually do have a problem with (stone sober) public displays of affection? I would bet it isn’t geographically-grounded, but I’d guess that there is a little truth in the the “reserved Finn” myth.

“I’m about 15 cm taller than the average Finnish woman.” – anzi

That’s hot!

I am 194cm, but not a (Finnish) woman

Is it so very hard for you folks to see that some Finns actually do have a problem with (stone sober) public displays of affection? I would bet it isn’t geographically-grounded, but I’d guess that there is a little truth in the the “reserved Finn” myth.

No, I don’t have a problem with accepting that. For example, my grandfather wasn’t the touchy-feely type. Neither are my boyfriend’s grandparents. It bothers me somewhat, but I don’t think that it is my place to judge their behaviour either. I do, however, do my best to act differently.

Do you have a problem in accepting that people who are not comfortable with PDA aren’t all emotionally stunted and cold? And that being an extrovert isn’t always a good thing?

Do you have a problem in accepting that people who are not comfortable with PDA aren’t all emotionally stunted and cold?

Kinda. I mean, if a kid’s father doesn’t hug him ever, never tells him he loves him, doesn’t kiss him… Doesn’t that mean something is wrong?

And we were not talking about public displays, hfb was talking about the lack displays of affection from the grandparents as opposed to the PDA from ladies in the supermarket.

And that being an extrovert isn’t always a good thing?

Never use the word always, it wrecks the arguments.

Kinda. I mean, if a kid’s father doesn’t hug him ever, never tells him he loves him, doesn’t kiss him… Doesn’t that mean something is wrong?

But that’s not PDA (public display of affection). That’s basic display of affection. Which, granted, not everybody is comfortable with either.

Then again, people display affection in very different ways. Not everybody is into hugging and kissing, or talking. My grandfather wasn’t the touchy-feely -type at all, but I do know for sure that he loved his children, my grandmother, and his grandchildren. He displayed it in all of the other things he did and said.

My main beef here is that you seem to have a fixed idea of what is a “proper” and “correct” way of displaying emotions, and because Finns don’t generally adhere to that way (in your opinion), we’re wrong and must be corrected. Again, tell me if I’ve misinterpreted you.

Never use the word always, it wrecks the arguments.

And sweeping generalisations, not to mention assuming that your own opinions are everybody else’s opinions, don’t? What should I have said? “Being an extrovert is not a good thing?” That’s not true either, now is it?

Personally I have always preferred the company of more introverted than extroverted people. But that’s just me, the weirdass ginormotron chick who likes beer, hard rock music, and who doesn’t think that a person is defined by which country has issued them their passport.

Just replace the word finn with black or a jew and see what you get from hfb’s comments. It amazes me how stupid and hypocritical hfb really is. Here she is talking about how people here don’t have any skills in debate, yet she refuses to answer to a simple guestion and dodges it with ad hominems.

You my dear lady are a racist. You posess zero reasoning skills and your debate tactics, well you can’t debate. all you can do is thow in meaningless blanket statements if thats your idea of an intellectual discussion then you don’t deserve any intellectual comeback from anyone. Anecdotal evidence = NO evidence.

Please entertain us with your finnish skills hfb, please do.

“Just replace the word finn with black or a jew and see what you get ” – Adrogynous

The only thing Finns can do is play sports, be singers or entertainers, are stingy with their money and …umm… wait.

” that’s just me, the weirdass ginormotron chick who likes beer, hard rock music,” – Anzi

Ginormotron ?

This is getting interesting.

This is getting interesting.

Seriously? If this is your idea of interesting, then I can’t help you.

Too bad. At least I have an image (albeit something out of Heavy Metal comic books) to place to your nickname.

Sorry, dude. I tend to steer clear of brass bras and horned helmets.

Me too.

“And for the record, hfb was saying that she was lacking in emotional support from her in-laws which are Finnish. You don’t agree it is strange to have complete strangers swooning over your baby much more than the actual grandparents?”

It’s nice to see at least someone is reading before posting. Precisely. Of course, after moving, having the kid and dealing with the house…they come to stay for a week which, ordinarily, I wouldn’t mind but I gotta say that as an exhausted new mother who barely gets a chance to sleep I must admit that the in-laws visit was like adding two more kids without diapers to my plate as they didn’t change a single diaper, didn’t offer to buy lunch, I made the evening meals and they mostly talked only to my husband who conveniently didn’t take any time off while they were here. I didn’t think it was much to expect a little gushing. The nice old lady wasn’t overly attentive…she just smiled and congratulated me on such a lovely baby and mentioned her kids, too. She is a beautiful baby and I do seem to get quite a few people stopping to admire her and congratulate me. It’s nice in a way as after all we’ve been through with the move, etc. and four years of Finns studying their shoes as you pass them in the halls of your apartment building a little kindness makes my day.

Anzi – Is it really fear of emoting or is it total and complete self-absorbtion? Seriously, if you come 3500 fucking miles, you should be able to smile at the mother of the baby and say something nice about the adorable grandkid…not to mention have the grace to stay in a hotel.

Anonymous – You lost me on the racist argument way, way back at the top where you first mentioned something about how stupid and violent the US is…it’s sorta like the KKK calling me a racist. *shrug*

On the whole, no, I don’t have a very positive view of Finns and I might add that you cowering behind your anonymous moniker and flinging poo possibly after too much to drink since I don’t believe I’ve said anything quite so personal or inflammatory as you suggest aren’t helping to improve that view.

hfb (about the Finns and Americans): “I’ve not seen a single violent, pooping, pissing or passing out in the street drunk since I left the so-called happiest nation in the EU, another baseless claim that mere observation doesn’t support, […] Maybe it’s genetic, too.”

Yeah okay, you’re not particularly smart but if you read the above three times slowly even you should see that it clearly racism.

So, by the way, you already had your little boozer? With Finnish genes of uncontrolled abuse and pooping and the American culture of drugs and violence, the future doesn’t look bright, does it …

HFB, I feel your pain. Kinda like my in laws here. Hardly a word of congratulations to the dad, just a rush to see the baby and smile at it. They seemingly have a shallow concept of family. Mind you, when it comes to raising them and holding them when they’re smiling, there’s always time. Even as far as to take my newborn out of my arms and to question discipline and rules with the normal lazy parents view that “they’re just growing up.” It is a very different concept of family, far more distant and shallow.

hfb:

I’m sorry that your in-laws are the way they are. My experience of family is very different from yours, so I cannot relate. Yes, my family is all Finnish, we’re very close, and everybody smiles and gushes over my nephews and offers to help when they’re visiting.

So yes, I cannot relate to your pain. And I’m not being sarcastic or bitchy here, which I admit is a nice change.

I just think that you shouldn’t expect everybody to be like and think like you and the people around you. I still strongly resent your way of thinking that your experiences are everybody’s experiences. This is not the case and I hope you realize that.

“Anonymous – You lost me on the racist argument way, way back at the top where you first mentioned something about how stupid and violent the US is…it’s sorta like the KKK calling me a racist. *shrug*”

A bit dense are we. I was fighting fire with fire and hoping that you would get my point but apparently you don’t want to.
First of all I don’t think that USA is a culture of torture, drug abuse, murder etc.
But you seem to think that Finland is a culture of drunks, street poopers and big meanies and then claim that it might even be genetic too.

“I’ve not seen a single violent, pooping, pissing or passing out in the street drunk since I left the so-called happiest nation in the EU, another baseless claim that mere observation doesn’t support, […] Maybe it’s genetic, too.”

Either you accept that USA is a culture of whatever shit or you are a hypocrit and a racist as my “argument” is as valid as is yours. It’s both or neither.

Now read what you have written here over the years and replace the word Finn with black or a jew, Amrican, latino, indian [insert group of people here] and see what you get.

Hope you like my nick.

Punter – Well, this is one reason I insisted on returning home. Both of my parents are unfortunately dead, but my sisters have been incredibly helpful. At least she won’t grow up seeing drunks everyday and thinking it’s normal. Granted, there are drawbacks here, too, but they don’t outweigh the pain of staying in Finland.

Anzi – I don’t think I ever asserted that my experiences equal everyone in Finland. Personally, I don’t think my mother-in-law would come to her daughter’s house after she had moved, had a baby, etc. after 3 months and camp out in her home without offering much help. I think it is a sort of rudeness that transcends nationality. Would your family be from the Eastern side of Finand? From what I’ve been led to believe by a reasonable number of Finns is that the Western side is quiet and more reserved than the Eastern.

Anon/gfs – There are a number of studies that have concluded that there is some basis to think that alcoholism is in some way genetic. If thinking drinking problems are both culturally as well as genetically to blame is racist then, well, I’m in good company. And, if I ever see someone here poop or pee in broad daylight in the middle of people picnicing in the park, I’ll be sure to go ask them their race and let you know. That might be a while though….

Anzi – I don’t think I ever asserted that my experiences equal everyone in Finland.

Maybe that has not been your intention, but you sure do come off that way sometimes. And quite frankly, some of your comments give me whiplash from the 180 degree turns they make.

At times you say that you understand that not all Finns are rude alcoholics, but then you say things like “I’m glad my daughter will not grow up seeing drunks on the street”. Or you say that the rudeness you’ve experienced in Finland is not a national thing, but then you praise the politeness of people elsewhere.

You are in no way accountable to me and I don’t mean any offense, but I’m just trying to make sense of what it is you’re trying to say. Right now, I have no clue.

(And BTW, I hate anonymous comments with a passion so I sincerely hope that you do not associate me with the dude with the spelling impairment. )

Personally, I don’t think my mother-in-law would come to her daughter’s house after she had moved, had a baby, etc. after 3 months and camp out in her home without offering much help.

Yes, that sounds like something my dad’s sister would do. She would also spice the visit with a non-stop commentary on how she’s a better person than everybody else because she lives abroad.

Would your family be from the Eastern side of Finand? From what I’ve been led to believe by a reasonable number of Finns is that the Western side is quiet and more reserved than the Eastern.

I’m a third-generation Helsinkian from my father’s side, and second generation from my mother’s side. My mother’s parents are from the religious and reserved Oulu region, which displayed itself very clearly in the taciturn demeanor of my grandfather. My grandmother is a different story altogether, but her family is originally from Karelia so yes, the Eastern Finnish attributes are there.

My boyfriend is about as Western Finnish as they come. But you know what they say about the quiet ones: less talk, more action.

“Anon/gfs – There are a number of studies that have concluded that there is some basis to think that alcoholism is in some way genetic. If thinking drinking problems are both culturally as well as genetically to blame is racist then, well, I’m in good company. And, if I ever see someone here poop or pee in broad daylight in the middle of people picnicing in the park, I’ll be sure to go ask them their race and let you know. That might be a while though….”

Yadayadayada. I am not going to deny that alcoholism isn’t genetic and thats not the point.

There are countless studies and statistics that indicate that you are 3 times more likely to get murdered in USA than in any other western society. USA is quilty of torture and other war crimes and the current adminstration even condones that.
So USA is a culture of murder and torture then, you agree?

Well I rather take the country of street poopers and drunks (as this type of behaviour would happen only in Finland, yeah right) than the country of murderers and torturers (as this is type of behaviour is only exclusive in the USA, right?)

BTW The only country where I have seen people shooting heroin in broad daylight and all out in the public was in the USA. Does this mean that USA is full of heroin junkies?

“And BTW, I hate anonymous comments with a passion so I sincerely hope that you do not associate me with the dude with the spelling impairment. )”

I hate you too

I hate you too

OMG. My life is, like, totally over now.

Kristian: I agree, but only for new cars. Or make the tax regressive according to age. Same reason as above.

Now I’m not really following – I see that we reached an agreement on some points but you must explain the background of this thinking to me a bit better – why does it matter if it’s a new or old car if it falls within the limits demanded?
The 6L/100km would of course not be an eternal limit but would be lowered in the future, depending on how well the car-industry is doing.

Mikael: “why does it matter if it’s a new or old car if it falls within the limits demanded?”

Good question.

In my opinion, new cars should be taxed in a way to encourage manufacturers to build efficient cars. I’m sure we both agree on that.

Insofar as used cars…. They have already been built, so we can’t do anything about them; they need to be driven for their entire natural lives, or else we’ll just create more pollution by prematurely junking them and then manufacturing a new replacement.

Generally, it should be considered that used cars might be less fuel efficient due to engine technology and body components (e.g. heavier materials) available in earlier years. I don’t think these cars should be _overly_ discouraged here in Finland, because we’d simply be passing the eco-buck to another country. It would be hypocritical.

Another thing to consider is that if we encourage cars that are too small—regardless of new or used—then we might have extra costs to the public health system. But that’s another topic altogether……

How do you see it?

Anzi – At times you say that you understand that not all Finns are rude alcoholics, but then you say things like “I’m glad my daughter will not grow up seeing drunks on the street”. Or you say that the rudeness you’ve experienced in Finland is not a national thing, but then you praise the politeness of people elsewhere.

Well, I don’t think that’s a contradiction. Admittedly, I am rather conflicted over my feelings about Finland, especially since I tried so hard to make it work, but I am glad that my daily experience of seeing drunks hellbent for leather on drowning whatever ailed them in a 90 proof elixr. I often wondered what the long-term impact is on the children seeing these drunks peeing and gamboling about ( e.g., Koff park has a playground that is often filled with young children ) and if it does have any impact, I just can’t see it as being a positive thing. I still think about the drunk guy who lived upstairs who I witnessed pee on the front door of our building one afternoon when he was too drunk to open the door. He had two kids up there who I routinely heard crying and it always made me feel sad and helpless since there isn’t any good solution to a horrible situation like that.

And the politeness and friendliness of people here has been overwhelming. I used to think of it as annoying much of the time, but after being in Finland I almost want to go around hugging people for being so nice. It may get old again after a while, but I’ll just try to remember what its polar opposite is.

Yes, that sounds like something my dad’s sister would do. She would also spice the visit with a non-stop commentary on how she’s a better person than everybody else because she lives abroad.

What, like my mother-in-law beginning every sentence “In Finland…” while she was here? She actually started to explain shop hours to me in the car on the way to the grocery store and after six days of too much togetherness I nearly snapped but somehow managed to keep my ‘I KNOW, I lived there…remember?’ to myself.

So USA is a culture of murder and torture then, you agree?

Every culture is guilty of torture if not now, in the past. I seem to remember something about Finns murdering and torturing their own during the civil war. The patina of ‘civilisation’ is very thin for all humans. “Nobody expects the inquisition”" There are plenty of things that are far more troublesome about the US which require a bit more thought and experience to see and understand.

Kristian – In my opinion, new cars should be taxed in a way to encourage manufacturers to build efficient cars. I’m sure we both agree on that.

How does taxation encourage anything, exactly? Or did you mean tax breaks for manufacturers? Cars are like printers…it’s not the price of the printer, it’s the inks that suck your wallet dry. There was a journalist who wrote a book recently….can’t remember the title….about the prototype cars a car manufacturer leased out to a bunch of folks only to take them back after a year or two. When he found out that they were junking them out in the desert after they had worked so well and so efficiently (without petrol) he went in search to find out why. There is no incentive for the auto industry to build cars that either use less petrol or alternative fuels given the oil lobby is so strong. The fuel is where its at.

I often wondered what the long-term impact is on the children seeing these drunks peeing and gamboling about ( e.g., Koff park has a playground that is often filled with young children ) and if it does have any impact, I just can’t see it as being a positive thing.

Speaking solely for myself here, I spent my first five years in the suburbs of Espoo, in a high-rise apartment building made of concrete. I knew the local hobos by name. Then, after living abroad for a while, my family moved to the middle of Helsinki, where I would see drunks on a frequent basis on the bus on the way to school. I’ve grown to become a moderate drinker who hates public displays of drunkenness, but who can handle herself and who does not flinch when faced with something that is different from her usual realm of experience.

I must add that my parents are not big drinkers, so the only raucous drunken behavior that I have witnessed during my life has happened outside the home.

I know people who have grown up in sheltered upper-class areas of Espoo, who have now grown up to be people who are against the Espoo metro because of “all of the bad element that will arrive from Itäkeskus to ruin their neighborhoods”. I take no shame in saying that I’m glad not to be one of those people.

My sister lives right next to Koff park and she takes my nephews there all of the time. I think that there’s nothing wrong with that.

hfb: “I often wondered what the long-term impact is on the children seeing these drunks peeing and gamboling about ”

No effect whatsoever; it’s human behavior that hasn’t changed since the beginning of time. It just hasn’t been sanitized (i.e. swept under a rug) here yet. And I hope it never is. I’ll admit that urinating on the front door is a bit rude though. Much can be attributed to Finnish alcohol policy and its tendency to encourage binge drinking. I don’t see this extreme behavior elsewhere in Europe.

But seriously, much of this is the overly-concerned American in you, who might be too heavily influenced by centuries-old, puritan notions of morality. Not an insult, by the way. It’s just something that I notice is common to many Americans…..but then there are also those who reach the heights of perversion. Interesting dichotomy.

hfb: “I used to think of it as annoying much of the time, but after being in Finland I almost want to go around hugging people for being so nice.”

My Swedish relatives who just visited the States said the same thing; they found everyone (aside from unprofessional airport personnel at JFK) especially friendly, open and very much in contrast to Sweden & Finland. They hadn’t vacationed there in 10-years, so I guess they’d forgotten that nice aspect.

I would agree that people in America are openly friendly and communicative. I’ve always enjoyed that part. But the flip-side is that some can have the most difficult personalities—even volatile for that matter. It’s as if everyone is elbowing for ‘respect.’ I guess that’s a characteristic of immigrant cultures.

I found the vacillation between friendly and difficult mentally draining after a while and always felt relieved when returning to comparatively subdued Europe or monotone Finland. But it does get kind of boring here sometimes. Maybe that’s partly because of our sucky lifestyle where everything closes before midnight or shortly thereafter.  Americans are more dynamically-minded that way.  Work hard/play hard, etc……….

Kristian and Anzi – I don’t know that I’m so much of a puritan or that I’m looking for a sanitized suburbia, but to see people like that every day is incredibly depressing for me not only because they are killing themselves but likely their families, too. I find it hard to look away and assume that the state is taking care of them. Granted, the parents are the most influential when it comes to being role models with regard to drink, etc. but with drinking being so pervasive it seems like a hard task for parents. It’s difficult here, too, as the aura of the forbidden always attracts curiosity. I don’t know, maybe seeing all the drunks killing themselves serve as a reminder of what can happen but I don’t necessarily want to see such harbingers of addiction each and every day.

I despise the NIMBY people, too (what, like the bums can’t take the bus to Espoo?). One woman on staff at the US embassy told me about a drunk pooping in the paper bin at a house the embassy owns in Kaunianen one day while she was getting it ready for some new staff arriving. They get around just fine without the metro, but I can appreciate the idea of not wanting them around to poop in your paper bin.

And JFK…yeah, I am often surprised that anyone wants to come visit this country after having to pass through JFK. What an absolute shithole that place is…especially that gate FinnAir seems to have. I had an *ahem* interesting time with them ‘losing’ my 160 pound dog upon arrival last October. Let’s just say given my bump and escalating tone of voice made them look a little harder….

Americans are a total pain in the ass, I’ll grant you that, but perhaps it was being away for a few years or maybe it is that I now travel around with a cute spawn that has made me see the friendliness in a bit more positive and different light. Friendly people make it easier to suffer the assholes more gracefully. Finland is so subdued that excepting Vappu and Juhannus it is hard to get a pulse.

“I find it hard to look away and assume that the state is taking care of them.”

Especially when the state’s policies seem to cause it in the first place. Much of what we do is left over from the old Soviet-style economy that we had. We’re still sort of in that mode. Binge drinking is just part of it.

_
hfb: “One woman on staff at the US embassy told me about a drunk pooping in the paper bin…”

That’s freakin’ funny LOL! During my teenage years, I worked on a construction site for a family friend in the US. A real estate agent was showing the house we were building; and to everyone’s surprise, someone had pooped in the bathtub! A landscaper was later fired

But I’ll admit, that’s unusual for the states. ‘Aggressive’ pooping is our thing for sure.

By the way, I can’t wait for the Metro to reach Espoo. Wish it would happen sooner.

I’m sorry, but the pooping in the paper bin -bit makes me laugh, too.

Drunkards on the street also make me sad and angry (I prefer to party indoors during Vappu), and I have been known to express my frustration towards them. Mostly verbally. So far.

But after having spent about 80 minutes every day in the Paris metro for six months, and witnessing things like people urinating in the middle of the platform, people shooting up drugs right next to me, a young girl lying passed-out in the wagon and no-one helping her and hearing about a woman getting raped in a metro wagon full of people, I have gained some perspective. I won’t even start on all of the homeless people that live in cardboard boxes in the street. That’s something you do not see much of in Finland.

When living in Vienna, I walked through the city’s drug central station every day. I felt a bit sorry for those poor souls, but mostly they just pissed me off.

@192Yeah, in the US, the whole concept of public life is different. Cops arrest people for merely staggering or possessing a beer.

But to compensate, there are whole sections of cities reserved for hard drug activity, alcoholism and hundreds-of-murders per-year.

I lived in Philadelphia. There were over 400-murders in 2006 alone. I think hfb’s Boston only had 75 though. In any case, most happen in ethnic ghettos.

So it’s not like the US doesn’t have slovenly behavior. It’s just distributed differently by design.

Kristian: In my opinion, new cars should be taxed in a way to encourage manufacturers to build efficient cars. I’m sure we both agree on that.

Absolutely!

Kristian: Insofar as used cars…. They have already been built, so we can’t do anything about them; they need to be driven for their entire natural lives, or else we’ll just create more pollution by prematurely junking them and then manufacturing a new replacement.

Generally, it should be considered that used cars might be less fuel efficient due to engine technology and body components (e.g. heavier materials) available in earlier years. I don’t think these cars should be _overly_ discouraged here in Finland, because we’d simply be passing the eco-buck to another country. It would be hypocritical.

This was the part that I didn’t understand in your first post.
As I see it, we wouldn’t have to put a higher taxation on old cars if their efficiency is at an acceptable level, which would be put up by the State, on which basis it’s then taxed.
This is, as the limit would be lowered from year to year, ultimately “forcing” old cars to receive a higher taxation due to the fact that if they are, say, 10 years old then the technology, as you pointed out, will catch up with the old car making it a fuel-insufficient car compared to new ones.
For example; We say that the limit for an extremely low car-tax would be 6L/100km and I would today buy a Hybrid car which consumes about 5.5L of gasoline per 100km. 5 years from now want to sell it and the limit would have been lowered by the state to 5.8L/100km – the car has still quite a long “lifetime” left and is still very energy sufficient, therefore there would be no need to tax it higher just because it isn’t a new car. It would receive a higher taxation when, after a couple of more years, the limit for low taxation would be under 5.5L/100km.

Kristian: Another thing to consider is that if we encourage cars that are too small—regardless of new or used—then we might have extra costs to the public health system. But that’s another topic altogether……

This is of course very true. We do always end up weighing benefits and costs up against each other.

Mikael—I wouldn’t want to see large offroad-type vehicles everywhere. That’s for sure. But after all is done, I hope our car tax won’t be any higher than in, say, Germany—at least for reasonably fuel-efficient cars (again, considering the economy/safety tradeoff).

We definitely shouldn’t be punished for buying cars. Germany’s auto industry benefits, and an economically strong Germany helps everyone in Europe. We can sell our used cars eastward, so there’s no great loss of capital to Finland.  The net production and polution effect is the same any way we look at it, but at least it’ll keep us driving newer cars. We deserve it don’t we?

Very few people benefit from high car-taxes – we sure agree on that one.

I could add that the point off course is that it should benefit people even more to buy fuel efficient cars as that also makes us less depending on oil producing nations.

Finland is the asshole of the world, so what? I been to all over the world and however boring it is to be back, in a long haul I wouldn’t like to live anywhere else. I been expatriate to a lot of places, I have seen cultures and after the initial novelty wears off: I didn’t like it too much more than I did here at the asshole of the world.

There is a problem that where ever I go, I find I’m still the same myself with all the positive and negative feelings about different things.

So some jackass didn’t like it in Finland? Tough for whoever that may concern. Live like you want, live where you want and be happy. It’s pointless to cry how people don’t smile to you FIRST.. if you look like you ate truckload of lemons would you so much smile either?

If you want fake smiles “How are you today how may I serve you” -kind of greeters when you got to a supermarket, go for it. That kind of phony crap don’t float my boat. When a Finn is being kind to you and smiles to you, that is because she/he is showing here feelings, not pretending or just doing it out of habit. But whatever, some people just don’t “get it” so why I am even bothering.. whatever..

Punter:

“But Thomas, your answers are fundamentally flawed. There is no way you can possibly link auto vero maintaining high prices and therefore keeping us in polluting old bombs to LIMITING ENVIRONMENTAL DAMAGE. It just doesn’t add up. Think about it logically and clearly, from the materials used to poisons emitted, from the fuel consumed to the safety of the occupants and pedestrians, there is no way one can justify the continued use of aged vehicles in a modern society. Least of all on environmental grounds.”

Surely you understand that some pollution is created by BUILDING A CAR as well? As long as I don’t see any numbers on OVERALL environmental costs, I do not believe in the 3-year life cycle cars. Period.

Sure the production plants create pollution although I have a gut feeling (nothing more sorry) that the balance of this, under the tight manufacturing laws regarding polluting, would still offset the filth being spewed from the exhaust of older vehicles. It would be an interesting study to collect some concrete values comparing the running of 10-15 year old cars against the productiom and running of new cars in terms of overall environmental impact. Any opinion or ideas?

Punter:

“Sure the production plants create pollution although I have a gut feeling (nothing more sorry) that the balance of this, under the tight manufacturing laws regarding polluting, would still offset the filth being spewed from the exhaust of older vehicles. It would be an interesting study to collect some concrete values comparing the running of 10-15 year old cars against the productiom and running of new cars in terms of overall environmental impact. Any opinion or ideas?”

If car builders – and Kristian – would have THEIR ideal world everybody would change cars every three years. I’m SURE this isn’t environmentally sound. Not even if there is good re-use of raw materials. Building cars, acquiring raw materials for them, transporting these raw materials, transporting the new cars, …

Its all waste, possibly somewhat out-weighed by more efficient motors. But my old Opel Kadett -89 still consumed AS MUCH gas as my -06 car (both equipped with an 1.6 l engine). Or even less, if I happen to use the air conditioning (which is nowadays include in all cars, and seems to increase fuel consumption quite much).

Funny that.

Thomas, the big picture. It is not just about the fuel consumption but even more importantly today, emissions. These are the key to the environment and it is here as well as consumption that the new cars leave the old qutie literally for dead.

Punter:

“Thomas, the big picture. It is not just about the fuel consumption but even more importantly today, emissions. These are the key to the environment and it is here as well as consumption that the new cars leave the old qutie literally for dead.”

Yes, but building cars causes emissions as well. If that is the case, then surely any sane person understands, that the “total emissions” one car produces have to include ALL those that were produced while building the car.

You seem unable to understand this. As does kristian, the espooian. But, the big picture is, you are WRONG.

I hardly ever feel ashamed for being finnish, but the communist idiots posting here make me feel the same as the drunken finns I happen to see abroad.

I think finns are somehow brainwashed into thinking that they live in the land of the lottery winners and anything finnish is better than foreing equivalent (I think it is only true for Sako rifles. Or actually, WAS true.. now that the Italians (Beretta) have messed things up). Often times these people are young, in their twenties, still in school. The hard reality of economics and taxation hasn’t hit them yet. They get the student grant, after all. It just appears out of nowehere without them needing to do nothing more than just ask for it! Only negative about it is that it is so small that it’s unfair! Once they get a job and start paying all the taxes they realize how things really work. But not all, unfortunately. Those are most likely working in some public office or at places universities, church etc. Never in private sector or as enterpreneurs.

Also, it never ceases to amaze me how the socialists feel they have the right to force others to pay for their idealistic fantasies. They think THEY know how OTHERS should live. And yet they think that I should not be allowed to make the decisions for them! Just unbelievably arrogant. I guess non-socialists are somehow inferior and need to be herded by the right-minded socialists or they might make wrong choices.

But I voted the communists in kuntavaalit anyway! All the politicians lie, but the communists are just honestly crazy. Now I’m waiting for them to arrange me enough income (out of thin air, I guess) so I can quit working and paying for the socialist fantasies and start benefiting from them! I’m sick and tired of being the net-loser. Unfortunately I’m quite healthy as is my family, but after I quit working, maybe I’ll pick up a drug habit or something so I can use those “free” services as well!