Most Americans have this fantasy that someday they will become filthy rich, that all of their day to day problems will disappear, that they will no longer owe thousands and thousands to credit card companies, that someday soon their ship will come in.

More Americans are living below the poverty level “the working poor” than since WWII, the government has passed laws outlawing personal bankruptcies and destroying people’s lives via predatory lending practices and fewer and fewer people are owning more and more of the wealth.

Power and money, in other words are going to fewer and fewer people and corporations while the “little guy” is getting screwed.

Is this your dream for Finland?

Three Swedes – Ingvar Kamprad, Birgit Rausing, and Hans Rausing, are tax exiles. Two fled to Switzerland and Hans fled to the U.K…

hmmm…

Weird, Finland should atleast have 1 billionaire from the Nokia crew?
Swedes are known for being inventors, progressive tall handsome nordids with sloped skulls, big thinkers, while finns are drunk farmers who dont give a fuck! could this be an explanation?

Is this your dream for Finland?

No. Everybody (regardless of wealth, color or creed) here gets screwed royally. oops – make that in a republican fashion.

Well, that figures since Finland is not part of Scandinavia. Scandinavian peninsula consist from Sweden, Norway and Denmark. You’d have to talk about Fennoscandia to include Finland.

Why should it be something for the society to aspire to that some of it’s members would be filthy rich while most others would be poor as the church rat? I don’t get it.

Only five on the list are counted as “self-made”

Not surprising. There’s not much NEW business activity in the Nordic and Scandinavian countries. Mainly old businesses. Taxes are simply too high. Most business startups go straight to lower-tax lands. And the jobs go with them…..along with any future profits.

People of Scandinavian and Nordic countries (including Finland) are simply running on a treadmill while the profit from their labor flow to investors in other countries.

EVERYBODY should be given a Bugatti Veyron. It is a national disgrace that an accident involving a supercar should happen in a country such as the UK and not in Finland, where people have to have collisions in dull Ford Mondeos and suchlike, which is simply embarrassing and only gets in the newspapers if you are a conservative politician who drops off.
Personally I blame the welfare state and taxes. And if elected, I shall introduce draconian new laws on everyman’s rights, thereby allowing Phil here to become Northern Europe’s first wild mushroom billionaire.
It’s the least I can do.

“Why should it be something for the society to aspire to that some of it’s members would be filthy rich while most others would be poor as the church rat? I don’t get it.”

What you describe exists in developing African and Caribbean nations, etc. But I don’t see this as a condition in developed nations.

For example, I see many wealthy people in Switzerland, but very few poor church rats. In fact, the poor in Switzerland live better than the poor in ‘egalitarian’ Finland. I have a relative who is chronically unemployed in Switzerland, so I can vouch for that.

Could this idea that one person’s wealth causes another person’s poverty be one of those generalizations that’s been accepted without any serious analysis?

Antti Herlin is a billionaire, and Aatos Erkko (billion dollars).
Forbes listing does not include every billionaire there is.

This shows that Antti Herlin owns 20,60% of KONE:
http://porssi.arvopaperi.fi/details/details.aspx?id=FISHKNEBV
This shows that current market value of KONE is 5.346 billion euros.
http://www.kauppalehti.fi/4/0x13001907ac/porssi/osake/index.jsp?klid=1907
Makes about 1.1 billion euros ~= 1.4 billion dollars

This shows that Aatos Erkko owns 22.70% of SanomaWSOY:
http://porssi.arvopaperi.fi/details/details.aspx?id=FISHSWS1V
This shows that current market value of SanomaWSOY is 3.545 billion euros:
http://www.kauppalehti.fi/4/0x13001907ac/porssi/osake/index.jsp?klid=1091
Makes about 0.8 billion euros ~= 1.05 billion dollars.

Then we have this guy called Poju Zabludowicz
http://www.aamulehti.fi/sunnuntai/teema/asiat_paajutut/4592464.shtml
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/richlist/person/0,,43018,00.html
“Zabludowicz holds a Finnish passport but lives and works in London”

So Finland does have billionaires, Forbes didn’t just find them. They are very private.

Åboy says “Why should it be something for the society to aspire to that some of it’s members would be filthy rich while most others would be poor as the church rat? I don’t get it.”

Well why don’t you see that there are many that do and maybe we don’t get you and your socialists friends ideas? Why would I give a flying F if some other poor ass sits back and does nothing? I don’t give a shit as long as I don’t have to suffer or support him. Sorry but I have no responsibility to provide for anyone other than myself and family members (until the age of 18). Now as for getting rich and as winter suggests in another post buy a Hummer well let that happen. Life is for living and enjoying and if that includes making money and spending it on material things than bring it on. Maybe like Bill Gates, I might make a squillion and find a charitable bone in my body and personally donate more money than the state of Finland does but then again maybe not. It’s up to me though.

Scandinavian peninsula consist from Sweden, Norway and Denmark.
How on earth is Denmark located on the Scandinavian peninsular? That is just mainland Norway, Sweden and the far northernmost parts of Finland. As a term Scandinavia is disputed in any case… from my opinion, I would include Finland in Scandinavia along with Danmark, Sweden and Norway… but lots of people would not. It is a shame the term Norden never caught on in English.

Anyway, that aside, I think it sad when these people decide to become tax exiles. Shows a lack of societal responsibility in my opinion; in fact selfish. Not surprising that Kamprad does though, as he is a smÃ¥länning… a notoriously stingy (or they would say “economical”) bunch.

Scan·di·na·vi·a –noun

Random House Unabridged Dictionary:

1. Norway, Sweden, Denmark, and sometimes Finland, Iceland, and the Faeroe Islands.
2. Also called Scandinavian Peninsula. the peninsula consisting of Norway and Sweden.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition:

A region of northern Europe consisting of Norway, Sweden, and Denmark. Finland, Iceland, and the Faeroe Islands are often included in the region.

WordNet® 2.1:

1. the peninsula in northern Europe occupied by Norway and Sweden
2. a group of culturally related countries in northern Europe; Finland and Iceland are sometimes considered Scandinavian

The American Heritage® New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition:

The region in northern Europe containing Norway, Sweden, and Denmark and the peninsulas they occupy. Through cultural, historical, and political associations, Finland and Iceland are often considered part of Scandinavia.

…aargh… let’s quit Scandinavia/Norden and join NATO instead…

It’s obvious I am not the only one with ADD. Phil starts with billionaires, then few comments later discussion goes to famous “Is Finland a part of Scandinavia” direction…

Actually, there may be 3 Finnish billionaires, according to a poster at Scandinavian Finance.

Poju Zabludowicz with $3 billion, from casinos and investments. (Lives in London, though.)
Antti Herlin with $1.4 billion, from KONE
Aatos Erkko with $1 billion, from Sanoma publishing house

And yes, I use the broad definition of “Scandinavia.” But I don’t work in Iceland so I don’t write about them, unfortunately.

Finns dont belong to skandinavia genetically culturally geographically etc. Finns could be smarter but in the end finns are just ugrics who run to forest to kill them self with low esteem and high alholic rate. Finns are just stupid when you try to be normal skandinavians lets face it finns are freaks

Discussion about billionaires and even/fair division of wealth in a society through different tax models is a boring topic – Geography however, holds yet many undiscovered areas…

Kristian: “What you describe exists in developing African and Caribbean nations, etc. But I don’t see this as a condition in developed nations.”

But we’ll get there sooner or later, don’t worry a bit. Yesterday I saw a documentary on Dubai on MTV3, which highlighted the society to come: no taxes on income or profit, huge economic growth, no questions asked about where your capital comes from. A true haven ruled by a hereditary oligarchy with no democratic accountability whatsoever, aided and abetted by a tacitly self-censoring press, which can report anything in the world except criticism about the host nation. No free elections for any foreseeable future.

A Steve Forbes talking in a huge, marble and steel congress centre applauding the Dubai model as one the to emulate world of business. The gleaming skyscrapers built and the service sector staffed by Indian and Pakistani guest workers for 5 bucks a day. Higher education outsourced and the national wealth concentrated in a private holding company presided over by the hereditary ruler, buing assets globally to prop up the beautiful creation.

An economically superior, politically and socially, well, “competitive” system. Why can we not have it too?

(SIDENOTE: I apologize if my last comment appears twice. For some reason the page didn’t get updated for me and I might’ve submitted the comment two times as it didn’t show up on the first try.)

Everyone misses the point of having a Billionaire.

It drives the Economy

It provides jobs

And the best one

It drives the welfare state proponents nuts to see success

Thats why I want my Hummer.

It drives the Economy

Wrong. It drives the economy of the billionaire.

It provides jobs

Wrong. It fattens the purse of the billionaire.

It drives the welfare state proponents nuts to see success

Wrong. It drives the welfare state proponents nuts so see inequality and someone fattening their gut on other peoples back skin.

Winter, I couldn’t have said it better and I couldn’t agree more!!!

Bravo!!

“Now is the Winter of our common discontent made glorious summariser by this chummy dork.”

That’s Shakespeare, you know. Dick de Turd.

Hey, we’ve had geography, why not literature?

(SIDENOTE: Phil, could you check your filters, please. A comment I’ve tried to post here (several times) seems to get lost for some reason even though there should be nothing in it to censore or filter.)

Ben Elton puts it nicely when describing one of the characters in his novel Stark:

“He had had to learn the hard way that the difference between being poor and not being poor is far greater than the difference between being rich and being stupidly rich. Being able to own a swimming pool is physical pleasure, being able to own hundreds of them is just an abstract idea. Sly had only one dick and only one stomach. There was only so much he could do for them, and yet each day he worked harder to get more of what he didn’t need and couldn’t use.”

Herlin owns enough stock in Kone to pass the limit quite comfortably, and Erkko’s holdings in SanomaWSOY should just about put him over the top, too. Not sure about Wahlroos. Maybe he’s got some way to go yet.

So, if you really WANT them, we have ‘em.

3 000 000 000 euron suomalainen

http://www.aamulehti.fi/sunnuntai/teema/asiat_paajutut/4592464.shtml

Kristian: Could this idea that one person’s wealth causes another person’s poverty be one of those generalizations that’s been accepted without any serious analysis?

Winter: It drives the Economy

It provides jobs

There are of course 2 sides to this success story, maybe more. On one hand do I believe that a Billionaire can create and push the well-being of the population forward and bring social and economical ascension.
But there are also problems being created:

Study finds Wal-Mart contributes to poverty:
http://stlouis.bizjournals.com/stlouis/stories/2006/05/15/daily29.html

On one side a Wal-Mart Billionaire and on the other hundreds or even thousands of people whose lives have gotten even worse.

So the only thing that matters is the number of friggin billionaires? How about Brazil? A lot of dirt poor people but a lot of billionaires too (like 50 out of 157 000 000) behind a lot of security gates and surveillance cameras. Personal security guards to your kids because those ungrateful poor people might snatch them and demand ransom.

That’s the way to do it, screw the middle class, you are either one of the losers or one of the few winners. Those poor people do not even deserve drinkable water. Still wonder why occasionally those dirt poor people start revolutions?

Winter: You are still an ass and talking like 6-year-old with all of his new toys.

“Winter: You are still an ass and talking like 6-year-old with all of his new toys.”

Too true. But does anybody here think that some troll like him who spends so much time trying to convince people on this Finnish blog that he is a successful rich American weighing the pluses and minuses of buying luxury items?

He is probably sitting in a double-wide trailer, chugging Schlitz tall boys, wishing he was a millionaire, or a thousandaire or at least a hundredaire.

Double-wide? Huh. Mine is a 4 wide at least. But the bulldozer is comming soon, as I have a builder for the new McMansion. Got to Love the slacking Housing Market, as these guys would not even talk to me last year.

So bottom line, I expect to be “Homeless” soon. Anyone have a room to let?

Schlitz tall boys were back in the days of college, now we chug cheep Rum.

Yes this list is something to read about. Amazing thing is that there are so many russian ppl on the list. I think it is quite odd that so few swedish are there. They have so many years without any wars time to crow capital to their country. During WWII they sold so much metal that there should be more billioners than the list shows.

Finland need 10 years more to have some into list.

Look guys and gals. I am not trying to make you feel bad about a lack of billionaires. So to help:

Your success is: getting 10% of the population into poverty and on welfare, and they are staying there. You should be proud of the fact. Now that they are there, you can feel good that none will become billionaires, and escape from your grip.

So think positive, your glass is not have empty, but its half full.

Americans are just beginning to understand to what it is really to be a human being.

Do you Americans dare to say to the few Native Indians, I know better how we should rule the land of America? That I am not just an extension of Greed of Runaways from Europe?

“For generations, Americans shared a tacit understanding that if you worked hard, you could earn a livable income and provide basic security for yourself and your family. That promise has been broken. More than 30 million Americans–one in four workers–are stuck in low-wage jobs that do not provide the basics for a decent life….

Cynthia Porter works full time as a certified nursing assistant at a nursing home in Marion, Alabama. When she comes on duty at 11 pm, she makes rounds, checking the residents for skin tears and helping them go to the toilet or use a bedpan. She has to make sure she turns the bedridden every two hours, or they will get bedsores. And if bedsores are left unattended, she tells me, they can get so bad you can put your fist in them. But there aren’t enough people on her shift. Often only two nursing assistants are on duty to take care of forty-five residents. And Cynthia must also wash the wheelchairs, clean up the dining rooms, mop the floors and scrub out the refrigerator, drawers and closets during her shift. Before she leaves, she helps the residents get dressed for breakfast.

For all this, Cynthia makes $350 every two weeks. She is separated from her husband, who gives her no child support. The first two weeks each month she pays her $150 rent. The next two weeks, she pays her water and her electric bills. It is difficult to afford Clorox or shampoo. Insuring that her children are fed properly is a stretch. She is still paying off the bicycles she bought for them last Christmas.

She can’t afford a car, so she pays someone to drive her the twenty-five miles to work. There have been a few days when she couldn’t find a ride. “I walked at 12 o’clock at night,” she said. “I’d rather walk and be a little late than call in. I’d rather make the effort. I couldn’t just sit here. I don’t want to miss a day–otherwise, I might be fired.” No public transportation is available that could take her all the way to work.

Cynthia lives with her three children in a small maroon-colored shack. It is miles from a main road. Inside, the plywood floor is so thin and worn that the ground can be seen below. In the next room, a toilet sinks into the floor. There is no phone. A broken heater sits against the wall; the landlord refuses to fix it.”

Hey winter, after you’ve stocked up on front yard trampolines, building supplies and underwear made by peasants at Walmart, be glad you can read the rest at: http://www.thenation.com/doc/20040209/shulman

@ Punter (post 11): I bet you’d like some social welfare if and when you hit hard times, lost all your fortune and/or became seriously ill. You see, living in a society means that we take care of those that are less fortunate than we are. Of course it would be easy to think that all the people who need social services are lazy bastards, but that of course isn’t so. I can understand though why you want to think like that and it gives me hope that there’s some shred of humanity still left in you, because that’s just because you’ll sleep easier if you tell yourself that it’s their own fault, right? I thought so.

“Look guys and gals. I am not trying to make you feel bad about a lack of billionaires.”

Our success is: 100% literacy level, one of the lowest infant mortality rates in the world, top of the notch education system, one of the most competitive economies in the world, etc.

The list goes on. Now let’s see what you have:

Couple of rich guys, buttloads of obese ignoramuses, something akin to a totalitarian oligarchic theocracy as a government, 10,000 more homicides per year than in any other civilized western society, polluting frenzied consumerism, hordes of poor that die of tooth decay (among other things), etc.

Seems to me that we’re doing quite well.

I wouldn’t brag too much about the dental thing, there, Åboy.

You’re right of course, Dave, Sometimes the Finnish dental hygienists can be on a sullen mood and do not remember to smile through the tooth cleaning and hand holding.

I don’t know – I really wouldn’t exchange Finland’s much higher social mobility for a couple of US billionaires. I’m sure they are very nice and entertaining to have, as dukes once were, but we seem to be doing quite fine even without.

We have eurobilltrackers!

No Åboy, that’s where you’re wrong. No welfare for me thanks. The only way I will hit rock bottom is if this system of yours continues to drag me down and if it does I won’t stay around. Been here for 14 years and done ok but time to move on I think. This place was nothing when I arrived (1993), grew and looked like it had a slight chance (1996-1999) and has now sunk to the depths of shite. As for your 100% literacy level, low infant mortality rate, top education and other state BS, don’t you get it? Every other major western economy claims the same things. I heard all about free schooling, free school lunches, pensions, child support, healthcare, unemployment benefits blah blah right from day one. Well guess what? It’s available everywhere! Just that in other places, people aren’t forced onto it and don’t live on it like here. People are ashamed to be on it elsewhere. Here we consider it our right. Finns are without a doubt, the most blue eyed and brainwashed citizens outside of North Korea. You are told from day one about this paradise and just follow t blindly. The rest of the world is passing Finland by and laughing but all we do here is sit back smug and sure that we have everything better because that’s what we’re told and we all know not to question now don’t we?
WAKE UP111111

Punter: “I heard all about free schooling, free school lunches, pensions, child support, healthcare, unemployment benefits blah blah right from day one. Well guess what? It’s available everywhere!”

Agreed. It’s not only found in Finland. It’s commonly available everywhere in Europe. At better quality even.

Well, luckily this actually is not North Korea or East Germany: you can leave without any threats to your very life. There are all sorts of paradises around, as opposed to this dystopia, as we have heard, so why not go for it?

“Well guess what? It’s available everywhere!”

If you’re pointing to free education, health care, etc. with “it” then no, “it” certainly is not. I’d suggest you check your facts again, buddy. Then do us all a favor and check them again. When you’ve checked them the third time you might actually start to make some sense.

“Just that in other places, people aren’t forced onto it”

Forced onto what, exactly? Free education and health care, paid parental leave, student allowance, child benefits, government paid sports centres and operas etc?

“The rest of the world is passing Finland by and laughing”

Heh, passing by in what? In consumption and in the growth of income difference and poverty? The last time I checked we were at the top with the competitiveness of our economy, the wellbeing of our children and on the education that we receive. We also get better results out of our health care than a lot of other industrialized nations do, even though we pay a lot less for it.

No. Now you are just reinforcing my point Åboy. Learn to question what your great and mighty leaders tell you. Not everything Hesari and co write is true. I know because my homeland writes the same crap and both countries can’t be at the top. Get it? As for forced onto it, I mean the number of people “forced” onto welfare by an even poorer standard of living if they choose to work. What with all the benefits available and “free this and that” on hand, why would anyone choose to work when it’s unprofitable to do so? The sysytem you have developed has made for the masses to sit back and leech on. Reduced motivation and drive and resulted in more people keen to use it than are prepared to contribute to it. As the balance continues to change in favour of welfare, guess who gets screwed? We do. And one more thing, if I ever hear another Finn speak of the middle class I think I will finally crack. THERE IS NO MIDDLE CLASS IN THIS COUNTRY! Just a few lucky ones and a whole lot of other net payers to this outdated style of western socialism.

Lets summarize:

No chance to be rich or become a Billionaire = Finland

Great chance (Just read how many Billionaires are self made) = USA

HUMM… where do I want to live….. Socialism or Capitalism…..

Punter:

“No Åboy, that’s where you’re wrong. No welfare for me thanks. The only way I will hit rock bottom is if this system of yours continues to drag me down and if it does I won’t stay around.”

Feel free to leave, by all means. I doubt we will “go under” just due to you. I even doubt anyone will notice.

But ANYONE can hit rock-bottom, even you. Or are you a fortune-teller, besides being so GREAT, that you cannot get sick, invalidated, whatever.

“Been here for 14 years and done ok but time to move on I think. This place was nothing when I arrived (1993), grew and looked like it had a slight chance (1996-1999) and has now sunk to the depths of shite.”

Now this about sums it up. They should appoint you professor of History at the Univ. of Helsinki for this extremely intelligent analysis. How would we have known this if it wasn’t for you, Professor Punter.

“As for your 100% literacy level, low infant mortality rate, top education and other state BS, don’t you get it? Every other major western economy claims the same things. I heard all about free schooling, free school lunches, pensions, child support, healthcare, unemployment benefits blah blah right from day one.”

So Professor Punter, the historian, had to be told these things? These foreign intellectuals seem strangely un-intellectual for my taste. Frankly.

“Well guess what? It’s available everywhere! Just that in other places, people aren’t forced onto it and don’t live on it like here.”

People are “not forced onto it”? No-one is forced to accept a pension, child support, free school lunches, healthcare, … If – as I expect – you talk about the financing, taxes are forced onto everybody almost everywhere. What your tax-euros are used for isn’t ear-marked. Now, if we talk about choice of “investment objects” I rather see mine used for “pension, child support, free school lunches, healthcare, …” rather than killing hundreds of thousand iraqians. Somewhere else they seem to think that is more wise.

“People are ashamed to be on it elsewhere. Here we consider it our right. Finns are without a doubt, the most blue eyed and brainwashed citizens outside of North Korea.”

Guilt-by-association. A classical one. Learn to fucking argument, before you start argumenting. This means – if you’re reading comprehension is as bad as your argumentatory skills – GROW UP, AND GET A FUCKING LIFE WHILE YOU’RE AT IT.

“You are told from day one about this paradise and just follow t blindly.”

What is the normal morning routine of a US schoolchild? Don’t they SWEAR allegiance to the flag regurlarly? How’s this for brainwashing? But as it’s not done in AWFUL FINLAND it’s not relevant. According to the “punter logic” at least. I wouldn’t base any future processor on “punter logic” though.

“The rest of the world is passing Finland by and laughing”

Be my fucking guest anytime.

“but all we do here is sit back smug and sure that we have everything better because that’s what we’re told and we all know not to question now don’t we?”

I don’t think ANYONE is TOLD anything like the way you say. And if anyone is, the internet is available almost everywhere. It’s not forbidden to think in Finland, unlike you seem to think. But US idiots (or similar idiots representing other nationalities) complaining about this and that, mostly being unable to provide any believable motivations, simply piss me off.

It’s like that.

Wow

When reality hits the welfare state, it hits you with a base ball bat.

When you see a very well off country with over 800 Billionaires (USA), that has to hurt.

And you don’t even have one. You should have like over 12 by my reverse polish math.

60% made their money from scratch. That really hurts any notion that Finland can’t have some. So you have to conclude the state tax system makes sure one does not happen.

The world is leaving old Europe in the dust. Even Russia put you all to shame.

Soon the EU will be just a 3rd world country, maby you are already there.

What is it with you Reds that as soon as someone questions your welfare state that you firstly, consider them American. Secondly, get all abusive and use profanity. Thirdly, queston the doubters logic and return to your good old socialist BS?
Listen Thomas. I am not American and know I don’t believe the poicy in Iraq is working. Now does that mean it is the only other option available to spending tax revenue on welfare? It’s either this or that is it? Wake up and relize there are many different options available and all white welfare state doubters are not waving the American flag (though I’d rather wave it than yours)
Now as for your personal abuse, use of foul langage and ridicule, don’t even start to argue that way as just like your little piss ant welfare state, yu’ll lose. Now fuck off you little cock sucking Commie prick Get it?

For everyone else, do you not think it strange that people here always seem to think that if you speak against this sysytem that automatically without question you are an American that wants to build a little bit of the US of A right here in Häme? Do people not consider that apart from the American model and the Nordic model there are others to choose from? I’m sure our capitalist American friends here don’t wish to recreate their hometowns here. It’s just they see the problems here and with knowledge of the problems various pure (almost) market economies face are in a good position to offer alternatives. Also in our dare I say more open societies, I think we are more used to venting our anger and frustration towards things and we are taught to question authority and traditional thinking. Not here. I’ve never understood these points in Finland nor why thinking this way or questioning things around you is offensive for Finns.

“I’ve never understood these points in Finland nor why thinking this way or questioning things around you is offensive for Finns.”

In my opinion, it might probably be quite offensive if you’ve taught to think that “We will never be rich, but at least we’ve got something better, a perfect society.” And when someone challenges that it can be taken as an insult. When I was young, I often heard the phrase; “To be born in Finland, is like winning in a lottery”.(Or something along those lines). I agree, but no one said how much I won. 50 EUR?

There really is no comparison; America is stuck somewhere between 1800-1900. Darwinism economy with gargantuan punishments. Oh yeah, 800 billionaires and 2 MILLION prisoners.

Education level of average US citizens…. Winter is one fine example. The uberrich of America are screwing both ways American workers and they do not even know it! Cancer when you are uninsured and unemployed…pay 50 000 dollars. How about trade deficit? It is not because Chinese are cheap, it is because American workers produce crap products.

Tax exile fled to the UK, to do what? Pay tax there?

I must confess that I don’t see myself as much of a nationalist – but ideologically I am a social liberal. So, that is the system of thinking based on which I values societies. And to me it appears an empirical fact that Finland has a more socially liberal system than the USA, for example. And it certainly is more socially liberal than the libertarian paradise that only recides in the, rather ill-equipped, brains of the libertarians. To hear such primitive opinions as our friend winter for example has (hmm, you never really answered my question, btw, if you believe that Jews will go to hell, having rejected Christ), does quite naturally lead to a heated debate. I think it is often Americans that are amazed that there are societies where people really do think that their system is superior to that shining city on a hill. But it is true, apart from, I don’t know, Kristian, people in the Nordic countries quite automatically do think so. Based I guess on high social mobility, excellent universal health care, dynamic economy and virtually free higher education of outstanding quality. Go figure, why people should like these things…

“And you don’t even have one. You should have like over 12 by my reverse polish math.”

Not really. It’s not the aim of an egalitarian welfare society that some of it’s members should hoard riches beyond any possible need while others die of hunger and untreated diseases and have to work as wage slaves for the über-rich and live on their droppings.

“Soon the EU will be just a 3rd world country”

There are plenty of billionaires in 3rd world countries. Look at India, for example.

“that some of it’s members should hoard riches beyond any possible need”
And that would again be your socialist view? Why doesn’t a person have the right to hoard riches as you say? What if that is what drives him/her and by doing so this person creates opportunities for others? You all sound just like the fool described by the SAK ads for TV. Yet even they saw the foolishness of their ways and dropped the ads. Get over hte “them against us” crap and the “rich hate and use the poor rubbish” and see the modern world for what it is. Wealth creats opportunity and might I add pays for your welfare paradise so get off my back.
How do you propose your welfare state would look if everyone making more than average decided to take their weakth out of this hole in protest at the high tax and lack of benefit for investment? Tell me how would you little pinkies survive then?

Tim73, just what do you know about the US education standard? Seems to me that half the world flock there to pay for the education on offer while here it’s the opposite. Our system even pays foreign students to study here and still can’t attract anywhere near the numbers of tertiary students per haed. Now if the standard was so low in the US and so high here in Finlkand, I think it would be visible in peope (students and lecturers) russhing to benefit, don’t you? While we may all read and count to 10, as provided by universal free education and taught in primary and secondary school, this is mearly the tip of the educational ice berg. To even propose the education level on offer here is equal to that abroad is further proof of your ignorance. Name the great educational institutions of the world and count how many are Finnish.

Hmm, yes, most of the best universities are in the USA, though you also have plenty of hopeless slum schools there. The cost of a quality university education is also getting prohibitive. The USA is a continent sized superpower: it can afford to waste human potential – Finland can’t. Not to speak that to do so would be deeply immoral. Our top students are perfectly capable of taking advantage of possibilities elsewhere. In any case, if the medieval theocratic notions get even more inluential in the USA, it might even fall behind in many important areas. Apropos, what is the current stand of the Kansas Schoolboard on evolution? And how many children are home educated to save them from modern science?

So if you can’t afford it, take a loan, get a scholarship (as a return for hardwork) or try a term in the military to help with school. Now I know I’m going to get it for that suggestion but that is what it is. A suggestion that shows there are options out there as long as you choose to be PRO ACTIVE and not sit back and expect society to provide everything for you.
BTW, still no answer to where this welfare idea will be without the rich proping it up and what will happen to it if the rich decided to pull out in protest?

“where this welfare idea will be without the rich proping it up and what will happen to it if the rich decided to pull out in protest?”

Some of them continuously “pull out”, leaving for no-tax areas like Monaco. Others stay and build this society with the rest of us. This welfare has been built by a poor nation with hard work and big sacrifices. Even the ones that have gotten a bit richer than others haven’t (yet) forgotten about it. And it’s actually the vast middle class that is the major contributor to the tax box, not the few rich people who do everything that they can to hide their income and profit.

Yes, even in the most rigid feudal systems there were ways out, if you combined exceptional personal abilities with good luck. Even more so in the US – but social mobility is low, lots of great potential gets wasted. I’m sorry that is not morally acceptable. (Of course, it is also ineffective.) In my ideal society only your own abilities should count, not your parents’ or foreparents’. That would be just. But I wouldn’t close off competition: I would throw it radically open.

#47 “Also in our dare I say more open societies, I think we are more used to venting our anger and frustration towards things and we are taught to question authority and traditional thinking. Not here. I’ve never understood these points in Finland nor why thinking this way or questioning things around you is offensive for Finns.”

Actually, I think that it is a fairly universal tendency for people of just about any nation to be defensive about their own nation against criticism by foreigners – even if they might agree with the substance of the criticism itself.

This kind of hypersensitivity is not necessarily a good thing, but it seems to be a fact of human nature, so it is a good idea to try to exercise a certain amount of tact in these situations – if one wants to actually get a point across. It can also help avoid getting your ass kicked, especially among certain types of Americans who seem to take extreme offense at being told that any country anywhere does anything at all better than the U-S of A.

So when Punter writes “Finns are without a doubt, the most blue eyed and brainwashed citizens outside of North Korea” he may feel some kind of semi-sexual gratification from letting off steam, but he is probably not very successful in persuading anyone toward his point of view.

I see no point in trying to persuade people. I believe in democracy and freedom which extends to freedom of belief, not brainwashing. I’ll leave that up to the Finnish state. Also MJR please explain why my good fortune or that of my parents shouldn’t be shared with my children or grandchildren? I take it therefore that you support inheritance tax? Now just again tell me why I can’t choose to place security and opportunity to my family with things I have achieved during my lifetime? Why though does everyone else in society have the right to these benefits?

Vast middle class is the major contributor to tax….. Where? Here in Finland? A middle class???? Now, go on, you’re having a laugh now. Surely?

#63 If inheritance tax is evil, it is certainly not a uniquely Finnish evil.

#64 Economic class distinctions are relative concepts. Many people whose annual income and housing standards would place them below the poverty line in Western Europe and North America have material standards of living equivalent to the upper middle class in some countries.

and nor is the welfare nanny state a uniquely finnish evil, doesn’t make it right or less evil though. I’m talking middle class by european. american, australian etc etc standards. Now, a middle class in Finland? Tell me again…..

Punter, I feel that your main problem is not seeing what society actually is. You wrote that people in welfare states: “sit back and expect society to provide everything for you,” as opposed to the presumably superior American system of “self-sufficiency.”

You see, all of us (who belong to that society) are a part of that society… So, in a sense, in Finland you are taking care of yourself via a different system. You pay high taxes, you go to university free, you pay high taxes, you get virtually free medical care, you pay high taxes, you can be sure that you and your kids won’t starve to death on the streets in a cardboard box if you get laid off.

While I know that you’ll say you don’t need that kind of help, then fine, you know where the door is. But I get the sense that you don’t really get the system you are dissin’. I liken it to many American’s view of the Constitution; it starts out (as you know) “We The People…(yadda yadda)…” How many Americans do you actually think that they are part of the “WE” in “We The People…”? How many Americans who actually know what the Constitution actually is supposed to mean actually believe that they are part of the “society,” who have some kind of say in the progression of the country? How many Americans really think that grass-roots movements (not sponsored by some corporation) actually have a fuck’s worth of influence on the policies of the government (whatever party)? Does your Billionaire solution make the little guy stronger or make him stronger?

The US is on a slippery slope towards some bad (worse) things happening internally; the incarceration of millions (which are run by privately owned prison companies), the elimination of the middle class and the systematic dumbing down of society with popular culture (while the real government creates policies and laws that really are doing the majority of the populace great harm).

Sure, it’d be nice to have a mansion or two, a swimming pool or nine, but in the big picture, when I really think about it, a system where there are no children sleeping on the streets is one I’d gravitate to.

Punter, you surely know how “well” hereditary monarchy and aristocracy worked? It is natural to want to bequeth your success, but unfortunately abilities often are not bequethed alongside the property. Or alongside the lack of it. So, inheritance tax for great fortunes is actually socially a good thing – though I would abolish it for “normal” properties, say anything under 0.5 million euros. What we need to ensure fair competition is a universally good and universally affordable education system – along with universal access to high quality healthcare, and some safetynets to protect from the unpredictable, random fluctuations of the capitalist economy. Pursuit of profit is the best of servants, but it should absolutely be kept under certain constraints, so that it would not abolish itself along with meaningful liberal democracy.

What about a society of individuals all worrying about themselves and having responsibilty for themselves to function and act according to the rules. With individual respect and freedoms assured the society will develop just fine. I don’t want or need the government to make decisions for me. All I need is for them to prepare the tools and climate for individual success and stay the hell out of my everyday life. I’m more than capable of providing for and looking after my family thank you. Give me the benefits for my work and effort in this society and allow me to pay for my childrens education and health care (as we do today anyway) etc and allow them to benefit from their parents success. Not be sitting in a class along with the children of societies rejects that I’m also supporting and learning that this is what you can expect regardless of how hard you work. A fine lesson to teach the kids…. The future here is indeed rosey.

“Normal properties, anything under €500000K?” What is normal about that? Try buying a house in the capital for 4 person family (note house, not dog kennel that most live in) along with 2 cars a few stock investments and a little cash for a rainy day and see if it comes in under your “normal” threshold? Or sorry, are those things too extreme and opulent for normality? Generally, I would consider this to be the bare minimum of any interpretation of middle class and in fact where I come from, more typical of a normal working class household. Go figure.

“I’m more than capable of providing for and looking after my family thank you.”

Me me me me me, my own, my precious..

Don’t you get it? What you described is not a society. It’s bunch of cynical, navel-gazing narcissist who just happen to coexist. “I don’t care about you lazy fucks, as long as I have my belly full the rest of you can go to hell for all I care”. This kind of thinking even has a medical term, it’s called psychopathy.

#66 “nor is the welfare nanny state a uniquely finnish [sic] evil, doesn’t make it right or less evil though.”

Finland may be a welfare state, but it is also a democracy comprising citizens who tend to see the availability of public services as a good thing.

If they truly felt oppressed by the availability of subsidised education and health care, and by the lack of billionaires, they would be free vote a party into power that wants to eradicate such state-sponsored tyrannical egalitarianism.

By the way, Punter, if your house were on fire, what would be the truly genuine free-market self-reliant way to act if your house were on fire?

one at a time. Åboy, you’re a communist. It was tried and failed so get over it. Stop looking over the fence and worrying about what others have. Yes it is me, me, me but also my family. Just care about yourself and stop preventing me from doing so as efficiently as I otherwise could outside of this system. Co-existence is what it’s all about BTW. Getting on with one another, not controlling them and worrying about what they have.
As for the second twit, WTF has a fire got to do with anything? I suppose you’re waiting for me to say that I would call the fire brigade of course to have it put out and then you would say ” ah but that is a state service” then carry on with “see, you can’t look after yourself without help from the state” etc etc etc. My response to that is fuck I hope you are not a product of the so called educational wonders of this welfare society. I mean rally, are you thinking? Are you in a fit state to participate in this society. Go check your letter box, I’m sure your unemployment statement os waiting for you.
What I would do BTW is first ensure my family were safe and evacuated from the building. Second I would call the fire brigade to help extinguish the fire and thirdly I would think shit, what to do now until the insurance company comes through. See, part of taking care of myself is making sure insurance etc is paid and valid. Insurance I pay for with my own free will if I decide to. With the company of my choice and to the value I can afford. Pay it and if I never use it think, well that was a waste of money or then when I need it say thank God I had it.
Also in a modern free market society, there is no reason as to why the fire services couldn’t be privatised. Indeed by looking at the service offered here in my town and knowing the salary those guys are on, it would be better to stand by the fire and piss on it. The Finnish state obviously can’t afford to provide state of the art emergency services (when is the next firemans strike anyway) to all people. Look at the ambulance and Mediheli (half private) service in northern Finland. As for firefighting and rescue work????
Why not allow the free market to enter this sector? Everyone would benefit.

“you’re a communist”

Here we go.. I was wondering when this card would be drawn.

*sigh*

Please don’t presume to know what I am or am not. If I were as presumptuous as you are I’d say you’re a extreme right-wing fascist with the moral backbone of a robber baron.

Aboy is not a Communist. Comminist society thinks all wealth should be in the hands of the masses. He has not expressed that – yet. We do know how that worked out, but now they are Billionairs, so an old Communist was not so bad after all.

I could quote the famous Brazilian archbishop, Dom Helder Camara:

“When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist.”

Cheers Winter. Åboy, that was not a presumption, just a stated fact based on your many postings on this site over the years. As for me, yes indeed I am right-wing(economically speaking) and proud of it. Still waiting for your wisdom regarding the success of the welfare state without the rich financing it…..

“”See, part of taking care of myself is making sure insurance etc is paid and valid.”" -Punter

Maybe you and Åboy have more in common than you think. Just think of your taxes as insurance for:

- unemployment
- FREE higher education
- FREE* health care
- pension*

* I use these terms loosely

Not at all. I consider insurance as a volunteer payment made by myself of my own free will to a private company against any potential unforseen circumstances that may cause difficulties in my life. I am free to take them or not and free to shop around for the best deal that suits me. Likewise I am free to cancel these payments at any time I wish or offer my business to a company that provides a better service or more competitive price. Unlike Åboy and co. who simply trust big brother to do this for them. Maybe a lazy result by lazy people that have had the drive sucked out of them by this lazy state system???

Punter please leave as soon as possible. We already have enough of domestic idiots in this country we don’t need dumb foreing idiots as well.

Now fuck off and grow a pair of brains.

Ps. Please seek medical help for your psychopathic personality disorder.
Now where’s my precious, mine don’t thouch it.

Winter, I couldn’t have said it better and I couldn’t agree more!!!

Bravo!!

Comment by Kourtney N. Williams

How could you. You’re just as dumb as he is, we don’t expect any more of you

hey coward, get a name and a life you racist shit. Maybe that’s the problem in Finland. I’ve discovered it folks! Finns it seems all have a pair of brains which means one is constantly fighting the other resulting in nothing ever coming out and therefore nothing ever getting done. It really was simple afterall.

Co-existence is what it’s all about BTW. Getting on with one another, not controlling them and worrying about what they have.

There are very few rich people who have gained wealth WITHOUT controlling others. The society you’re thinking of here is one that doesn’t exist anywhere on Earth. Most of the work human beings do demand so much effort that it can’t be produced alone which forces people to work together almost everywhere. (Also, the diversity of work needed forces people to have their own expertise which leads to everyone being dependant on everyone.) That automatically creates a situation where acts, desires and plans are in a competition and conflict. How can you not see the immense power structure of society?

Not be sitting in a class along with the children of societies rejects that I’m also supporting and learning that this is what you can expect regardless of how hard you work.

Don’t worry, I’m sure that next to your kids are sitting the children of the uber-rich (who btw pay more taxes than you everywhere where income tax exist, so they actually support your ass) to whom your family is just a bunch of lazy rejects. “Your daddy has just 5 cars? Why doesn’t he get off his ass and get a job!” ‘Cos you know, it’s aaaall about work ethics.

Hmm. You can surely be rich without big incomes. But you get the idea…

“…so an old Communist was not so bad after all.”

It doesn’t work that way in Russia.

One can perhaps cultivate some billionaires and convince the people, that there are enough crumbs falling off their table to make the rest of the society flourish. If there is not glue enough to keep the society together, tell everybody they can be a billionaire or at least a millionaire with hard work and a dash of luck. I think the chances are even a couple orders of magnitude better than striking big time in the national lottery.

Yep, the masses surely owned everything in Soviet Union through the vanguard of the communist party. Now the old vanguard are the millionaires and billionaires, but their crumbs are falling off to Swiss bank accounts.

Punter: “BTW, still no answer to where this welfare idea will be without the rich proping it up and what will happen to it if the rich decided to pull out in protest?”

Actually, the rich themselves have already left Finland—or otherwise stated, they were never here in the first place. Furthermore, not all are rich; one can say that most are merely worker-investors in other countries that have more financially astute tax policy.

A disproportionately large part of Finnish industry is financed by investment capital from abroad. Finns merely offer hourly labor, but the actual profits flow to those foreign investors. So the real question you should ask is: What will happen if the rich decided to pull THEIR CAPITAL out of Finland in protest?

It’s something we don’t like to think about here in Finland, because due to our lack of wealth, we’re not financially prepared for such an eventuality :-/

“but their crumbs are falling off to Swiss bank accounts.”

….instead of Finnish bank accounts

“….instead of Finnish bank accounts”

Now that would be the way to get the unjust war reparations back with interest, if we could tap into assets “stolen” by the oligarchs.

#88 How ’bout it?

Actually, it would be an extreme case to accept the oligarchs’ money. But generally speaking, wealth ensures a nation advocacy, prestige and clout. Hence, security.

Poverty—Finnish style—ensures that you do what other nations prescribe for you.

“”I consider insurance as a volunteer payment made by myself of my own free will to a private company against any potential unforseen circumstances that may cause difficulties in my life.”" – Punter

I see. What about the insurance companies defaulting on hurricane victims, saying that they won’t pay? What happens when your precious company says “that’s it, we’re not paying for that heart transplant. Too much money!”

What then? Visa card still good? Hope so.

Actually mine is unlimited Am Ex but one should read the fine print of their policy and have a good lawyer for those matters, among other things, anyway.

So you’re all set with your credit card should your daughter get a rare form of incurable cancer (hence untreatable) that you didn’t happen to notice wasn’t covered on your insurance contract?

Good luck to you both and to your lawyers.

And if the same thing happens to you, WTF will your welfare shit do? At least in my world I will afford the best care and comfort available for my family while you twit, sit in a dirty shitty State ran hospital and ponder equality. Or maybe these types of illness don’t effect you socialist types? Unfortunately such a situation occured twice to direct relatives (father and grandmother) in my homeland and thankfully, due to insurance and wealth accumulated, an unbearable situation was made just that little less painful by having the very best MONEY COULD BUY in a time of crisis. Ultimately it made no difference but I like to think that at least their suffering was as “asy” for want of a better word, as possible. Insurance and private or State? Not even close.

How much would you be willing to pay for an education that taught you to sound like Punter?
And then:
Could you ask for a refund?
Could you make a claim against some insurance, or maybe ask AmEx to do a chargeback?

91.

Is having an unlimited amex just like being a billionaire, or even better?

You all really missed the point.

60% are self made. That means the country and tax system was there to facilitate, not hinder.

Its that simple guys. You have self made folks in your society. But this shows you hold them back from their full potential, with a corresponding hit on your economy. Hint: how many, are out of work? Like 10%?

Its like your welfare state piggy bank imploded, please don’t feel too bad. I do feel for you.

Finland can’t even provide adequate public health care. Still we pay half of our wages in taxes. Having to pay ridiculous prices for “free” dentist and getting some sorry ass dentist bitch, whos had two years of vocational training and don’t know shit about dental care, really tells it all. Im personally going to SHOOT the person wholl next start blabbing along the lines “You see, in Finland we have this world class free heatl care” because we dont. And Åboy, youre’ a fucking idiot. Bigots like you make other finns ashamed.

“And Åboy, youre’ a fucking idiot. Bigots like you make other finns ashamed.”

That’s priceless coming from a retard who threatens to shoot everyone who disagrees with him.

Your mother’s the one who should feel ashamed for not having strangled you at birth.

Too many stupid, loud-mouthed assholes, not enough good points. Just whip your dicks out and measure them already.

Punter (#41):

“No Åboy, that’s where you’re wrong. No welfare for me thanks. The only way I will hit rock bottom is if this system of yours continues to drag me down and if it does I won’t stay around.”

Feel free to leave, by all means. I doubt we will “go under” just due to you. I even doubt anyone will notice.

But ANYONE can hit rock-bottom, even you. Or are you a fortune-teller, besides being so GREAT, that you cannot get sick, invalidated, whatever.

“Been here for 14 years and done ok but time to move on I think. This place was nothing when I arrived (1993), grew and looked like it had a slight chance (1996-1999) and has now sunk to the depths of shite.”

Now this about sums it up. They should appoint you professor of History at the Univ. of Helsinki for this extremely intelligent analysis. How would we have known this if it wasn’t for you, Professor Punter.

“As for your 100% literacy level, low infant mortality rate, top education and other state BS, don’t you get it? Every other major western economy claims the same things. I heard all about free schooling, free school lunches, pensions, child support, healthcare, unemployment benefits blah blah right from day one.”

So Professor Punter, the historian, had to be told these things? These foreign intellectuals seem strangely un-intellectual for my taste. Frankly.

“Well guess what? It’s available everywhere! Just that in other places, people aren’t forced onto it and don’t live on it like here.”

People are “not forced onto it”? No-one is forced to accept a pension, child support, free school lunches, healthcare, … If – as I expect – you talk about the financing, taxes are forced onto everybody almost everywhere. What your tax-euros are used for isn’t ear-marked. Now, if we talk about choice of “investment objects” I rather see mine used for “pension, child support, free school lunches, healthcare, …” rather than killing hundreds of thousand iraqians. Somewhere else they seem to think that is more wise.

“People are ashamed to be on it elsewhere. Here we consider it our right. Finns are without a doubt, the most blue eyed and brainwashed citizens outside of North Korea.”

Guilt-by-association. A classical one. Learn to fucking argument, before you start argumenting.

“You are told from day one about this paradise and just follow t blindly.”

What is the normal mornig routine of a US schoolchild. Don’t they SWEAR allegiance to the flag regurlarly? How’s this for brainwashing. But as it’s not done in AWFUL FINLAND it’s not relevant. According to the idiot logic at least.

“The rest of the world is passing Finland by and laughing”

Be my fucking guest anytime.

“but all we do here is sit back smug and sure that we have everything better because that’s what we’re told and we all know not to question now don’t we?”

I don’t think ANYONE is TOLD anything like the way you say. And if anyone is, the internet is available almost everywhere. It’s not forbidden to think in Finland, unlike you seem to think. But US idiots (or similar idiots representing other nationalities) complaining about this and that, mostly being unable to provide any motivations, simply piss me off.

It’s like that.

So Thomas, are you an editor?

My education pi is of little importance to you. How much did it cost? Well I guess that is for me to worry about. I did however get on the right end of a sizeable scholarship (non US) as a result of good family connections that took care of the fees. The cost of living during study was entirely self funded though. Nothing for free in this life my father always told me and you know what, he was right. Now as for what it has taught me and in return taught the so called intellectuals that abound in this land and have had the pleasure of my wisdom for 14 years, well we’ll see in time. My only wish is that before then, I’m out of here and enjoying the coast somewhere quiet.

Why is it Åboy that every time somebody chooses to disagree with you that you feel the need to drag out the old F word and switch to a bout of profanity? Are you really so threatened by free speech and opinions different to your own that you feel this rush to verbally asault people? In fact all it does is show you for what you undoubtably are. A lazy non creative socialist that shines as an example for everything messed up in this country. Good night.

Strange how radical modern conservatives are – no Burke or Oakeshott for them. No intelligence either: should we really once again go down this selfdestructive road to understand that unbridled capitalism will sow the seeds of its own destruction. That’s how human nature works. How leninist the libertarians are, scarily so. How stupid.

Punter
“hey coward, get a name and a life you racist shit. Maybe that’s the problem in Finland. I’ve discovered it folks! Finns it seems all have a pair of brains which means one is constantly fighting the other resulting in nothing ever coming out and therefore nothing ever getting done. It really was simple afterall.”

Who said I have anything against foreigners? I do have problem with dumb fucks like you, we already have enough of retards in this coutry we don’t need to import more of them to Finland.

“My education pi is of little importance to you. How much did it cost? Well I guess that is for me to worry about. I did however get on the right end of a sizeable scholarship (non US) as a result of good family connections that took care of the fees.”

Nepotism. It sure is great when your daddy is rich and connected, fuck those others after all it’s Gods will that they were born poor.

“hey coward, get a name and a life you racist shit”
Hey coward why don’t you write here with your real name. Fucking racist bitch who makes false assumptions and spouts ignorant and retarded comments. I’ll write with my own name if you’ll write with yours, or are you affraid chicken shit.

“have had the pleasure of my STUPIDITY for 14 years, well we’ll see in time. My only wish is that before then, I’m out of here and enjoying the coast somewhere quiet.”

Please do and thank you in advance for increasing the average IQ in this country. I am sure it will “sky rocket” after your departure

Wow

Bring up a topic like Billionaires and one can sure hit a sensitive nerve.

But then again, when your welfare state, all is equal, world, is imploding, under its own weight.

I do feel for you guys, it is not nice to be pointing, out such glaring downsides to a welfare world.

We just passes the 100 mark on comments, shall we try for the record? Its over 500 I think.

#101 “Nothing for free in this life my father always told me and you know what, he was right.”

Sounds like a good reason to tax the hell out of big inheritances.

#104 “I do feel for you guys, it is not nice to be pointing, out such glaring downsides to a welfare world.”

Speaking of downsides:
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20040209/shulman

“unbridled capitalism will sow the seeds of its own destruction” No that was communism in the early 90s Capitalism is still going strong.
As for chicken shit, sorry for coming from a family that worked hard for its rewards and was able to provide better opportunities to future generations willing to do likewise. Ah F it, I’m not sorry at all. Thats the way the cookie crumbles and God (whoever that is) had nothing to do with it. Also your use of vulgar language puts you into the same class as Åboy. Really unbecomming of yourself. BTW, bitch is normally used when talking about females of the K9 variety and as I’m neither K9 nor female, you’re wasting your time. Also, my street slang seems to remind me that people of another class and social structure use that term as well but once again, it’s just not me. Now bend over and pull that rather empty head of yours back out of your…………. Well you know.

“Sounds like a good reason to tax the hell out of big inheritances.”

Actually Kimmo W., it’s very bad because it allows wealth to flow out of a country. In my opinion, it is much better to allow those who HAVE to continue to finance themselves with their own capital.

That way we as a society can concentrate more effectively on providing opportunities for those who HAVE NOT.

Punter, methinks this is just up your alley:
http://www.theonion.com/content/opinion/i_dont_want_health_care_if_just

DAVE THE RAVE: “What about the insurance companies defaulting on hurricane victims, saying that they won’t pay?”

Good point. In my opinion, government should act as a safeguard regarding insurance matters. That is, it should oversee the finances of insurance companies. But if an insurer defaults despite the governmental monitoring, then government needs to compensate for the difference and help the individuals who are affected.

The problem is when government itself becomes the insurer. In that case, we most certainly won’t get the best value as consumers.

Dear Punter,

I think you may have misspelled your name. After reading your insightful posts, I think it really should begin with a “C.”

Kisses,

Dave

You mean as in Rave from the CAVE? Get up with the times

114.

LOL! Rave from the CAVE! Good one! LOL! I gotta remember that one, Cunter.

see we do have a sense of humour.

Anywya I hope by the morning I will have an answer to 3 questions that remain outstanding namely 1.How will the nanny welfare state survive without the evil rich to fund it? 2. Why can’t we attract foreign academics to our wonderful educational institutions with financial incentives while in other countries they are turning them away despite the fact they have to pay fees? and 3, Hopefully MJR or a friend can explain how €500000 is considered about “normal wealth” and therefore worthy of inheritance tax when in fact for most it would be below an average financial performance for a lifetime? Considering of course a family home, modest investments, 2 cars and money for a rainy day and excluding such luxaries as a boat or holiday home, I would be disappointed to think of a life of 75 years being worth less than €500000……
Rather than the name calling and constant refusal to tackle the arguments with substance, sleep on it pinkies and consider an answer to these.
Oh and F you you Fing foreigner, go home USA lover etc etc etc don’t count as answers. Heard it all before

Ah Punter wants substance answers, that require one to think about what has happened to poor (4th world?) Finland.

Bottom line is: Finland has the smart folks, it has Education, Modern Facilities, but just moves along making a small living. The potential for wealth is in Finland, but its going to take a huge social change to get there.

Wake up, you to can grow the economy like the USA, and have an extra $10 000 for every Finnish peasant to go to Wal-Mart each year.

Or you can continue to dream the social welfare crud, where every one is the same, every one stands in the same long line, nobody can dare to earn more than one’s neighbors.

Cunter wrote:
“bockbockbockbockBOCK!!! PKAW”

bitch is normally used when talking about females”

Well you are a bitch as in you don’t have any balls

“sorry for coming from a family that worked hard for its rewards and was able to provide better opportunities to future generations willing to do likewise. Ah F it, I’m not sorry at all. Thats the way the cookie crumbles and God (whoever that is) had nothing to do with it.”

Yeah it sure is though for idiots like you what with the rich daddy and connections. You didn’t do shit for what you had and have, you just got it free without any work. You’re a fucking class A hypocrit bum.
I don’t feel sorry for you. I do feel sorry for your ancestors for having such lazy ass bum as an offspring.

“Also, my street slang seems to remind me that people of another class and social structure use that term as well but once again….”

…..You make wrong assumptions AGAIN but hey don’t worry I didn’t expect any less of you.

“Anywya I hope by the morning I will have an answer to 3 questions that remain outstanding namely 1.How will the nanny welfare state survive without the evil rich to fund it? 2. Why can’t we attract foreign academics to our wonderful educational institutions with financial incentives while in other countries they are turning them away despite the fact they have to pay fees? and 3, Hopefully MJR or a friend can explain how €500000 is considered about “normal wealth” and therefore worthy of inheritance tax when in fact for most it would be below an average financial performance for a lifetime? Considering of course a family home, modest investments, 2 cars and money for a rainy day and excluding such luxaries as a boat or holiday home, I would be disappointed to think of a life of 75 years being worth less than €500000……”

Sorry first of all your three “guestion” don’t deserve an answer. You are so far bent up in your ass that even Mr.Bates would look like a schoolboy.

You my beloved Mr.Cunter are beyond any help as I said before seek medical attention for your psychopathic personality disorder and after the good doctor has fixed you up grow a pair of brains. Maybe then I’ll answer your retarded “guestions”.

Oh, lovely. Not only can you boys not quit comparing your American and Finnish metaphorical dicks, but you’ve gotta throw in misogynistic insults as well.

No wonder women don’t post here. There’s little intelligent life.

I believe that one of our deep libertarian cum rightwing thinkers on this thread compared Finland with North Korea. Anyone thinking that we don’t urgently need 50 billioners in Finland is deligthfully labelled as a “Communist”. I think that social democracy is one of the things that has made Communism such a strange phenomenon to modern conservatives that they don’t even regonize it, should even Lenin come and bash their “brains” in. My apartment is 50 meters away from Kauniainen border, that bastion of Finnish “Communism”. Finland is a dynamic market economy, you can get ahead and win substantial properties, you can get rich – and many do. Only thing missing are bad, crime infested slums with no hope of getting out, a hereditary underclass. Instead we have excellent universal education, excellent universal health care and other relatively well functioning safety nets. Combined with dynamic, efficient economy. See, it can be done.

Firstly for my much admired anonymopus fan out there who thinks it’s neat to throw around insults, believe me friend I would love to meet you. If you feel the same then may I suggest we discover a way to do so. I enjoy a debate however being labelled such things and insulted in such a piss poor way by an obviously irrate biggot online is beyond me so please you, how can we do this?
Secondly I still don’t get it. You have had all night and morning to come up with three simple answers to three simple questions concerning your system. No tricks no games. What was the net result of this? NOTHING NOT A SINGLE THING (FRUSTRATION) Yoy had the chance to explain yourselves to me and any other interested conservative. You had an opportunity to explain your left wing ideas and make me see the light. The net result however was nothing. No answers to the questions no explainations or justifications just a deep personal insult from a spineless freak, an accurate summary of the content by an “American Angel” and mjr still going on about where her flat is while not answering the question directed to her.
Now why is it that economic conservatives like me seem (and fill your own words in here from previous insults) when it is people like you unable to debate or justify your opinions. Easier to get into some mud throwing, bit of name calling. Anything to avoid tackling the problem head on. Generalize and Americanize everything, claim we have the best of everything and when someone questions these opinions, look out. FIRE.
Well I should have known. As I said, I’ve lived here long enough and this opinion from many comes as no surprise. I just would have thought, or at least liked to have thought that on a site such as this it may have been different but allas………….

Still waiting for a response to this comment…

“Bottom line is: Finland has the smart folks, it has Education, Modern Facilities, but just moves along making a small living. The potential for wealth is in Finland, but its going to take a huge social change to get there.

Wake up, you to can grow the economy like the USA, and have an extra $10 000 for every Finnish peasant to go to Wal-Mart each year.

Or you can continue to dream the social welfare crud, where every one is the same, every one stands in the same long line, nobody can dare to earn more than one’s neighbors. ”

Sadly we will continue the old ways of the SDP after the elections. As one can plainly see by the comments posted, there are still plenty of fans of taxation and forced equality

My sentiments exactly Uncle Sam. When provided with the chance to discuss the options and answer some questions concerning these issues, typically the outspoken supporters of these policies come up short and resort to cheap sniping. I rest my case.

“I would be disappointed to think of a life of 75 years being worth less than €500000……” Punter

While money is necessary, and I like living above the poverty line as much as the next guy, I would be disappointed if a pile money is the only factor with which I can measure the quality of my life. Sad are the people who have no other compass besides an accountant’s calculator.

“1.How will the nanny welfare state survive without the evil rich to fund it?”

It has done so up until now. Rather than from individual billionaires, the system takes advantage of big trade (ie Russia in the olden days and Nokia et al today). What’s not to understand?

“2. Why can’t we attract foreign academics to our wonderful educational institutions with financial incentives while in other countries they are turning them away despite the fact they have to pay fees?”

What? What does this have to do with anything we are discussing? Did I miss something? How was it when daddy sent you to your community college? Did you have big name professors and that’s why you are so smart?

“3. Hopefully MJR or a friend can explain how €500000 is considered about “normal wealth” and therefore worthy of inheritance tax when in fact for most it would be below an average financial performance for a lifetime?”

That was probably just a number he/she threw out there, without thinking, and now you’re pouncing on it like a FOX pundit jumped on Obama’s parking tickets. Sure life would be nicer with more inheritance, but at least the tax is fairly exercised among all levels of wealth — unlike in the US, where lobbyists make sure the ultra rich just get richer and the poor are fucked in anus repeatedly.

“Oh, lovely. Not only can you boys not quit comparing your American and Finnish metaphorical dicks, but you’ve gotta throw in misogynistic insults as well.

No wonder women don’t post here. There’s little intelligent life.” – AmeriikanEnkeli

Can you hear this?

It’s the world’s smallest violin playing the world’s saddest tune.

“Easier to get into some mud throwing, bit of name calling.”

A classic case of the pot calling the kettle black.

Please come down off your high horse, your ass is showing and it’s not pretty. You, my dear, are no better, as it seems you were there from the beginning, actually initiating the whole name calling thing.

To Be Honest, Finland and its people, are smart, down to earth and honorable, billionaires or not isn’t the issue, like someone said earlier, India got billionaires… Money is not everything in this world, Stop acting like jews!!!

The day the rich people of Finland starts to buy $200 million tickets as space tourists (like that yankee jew did not long ago,) then it’s time for concern about the health of the finnish nation!

“dicks, but you’ve gotta throw in misogynistic insults”

By the way, why is it peachy keen for womyn to write “dick” but it is “misogynistic” for men to write “cunt?”

Thanks for your input Dave. That was all I asked for and your comments are taken on board for consideration. Interesting that you point to Russia and Nokia as examples of how the system will work withoput the “rich.” Point taken although I see those two as examples of how the system has failed to work, both with the collapse of The USSR and Finlands ability to take the most from Nokia’s unique position of wealth in the late 90s. I guess this just proves how 2 people can see the same thing differently. >
As for the second point, in fact it was the constant pointing out that we may not have wealth but we have other great things eg. education that raised this question. My point being that we have neither at a high level. To put it simply, if we are sacrificing private wealth for great public services such as education (which Finns constantly refer to) why is that foreign academies attract paying students while we fail to attract similar numbers (oer haed) with free and even paid education? I think it has a lot to do with the quality of education at the higher level and after all, isn’t that what specialised tertiary education is all about? Not learning to count and read but taking this knowledge to a higher level.
Finally I guess the €500000 was just a number thrown out but come on. How hard is it to have €500K in assets when you add it all up? It’s not a lot of money today. To me, using this form of taxation is simply unjustified and the ultimate insult to anyone that has worked a life away in this country to provide for their family. Also, it is the poor and working class that get hit by this far more than the wealthy who are better able to ship money away and with the help of creative book keeping, hide it from the powers that be. As for honest Jukka and his family waiting to see what is left of the grandparents property, well “sell it up, pay the tax because your family member died (selfish bastard)and we’ll see what’s left to give you.” Next time maybe they’ll think twice about dying Now, about that ass…..
Thanks again for at least taking the time and enjoy your day in the cave. Cheers.

Well, among other things our “welfare state” can pay its own way, without any gigantic loans from the Chinese Communist Party. When did balanced budgets stop being a conservative slash libertarian principle? Not to mention the negative savings rate of the US consumers, not to mention the busily deflating housing bubble, etc. etc. We could maybe get the Chinese to finance a couple of billionaires to Finland?

Cunter wrote:

“Firstly for my much admired anonymopus fan out there who thinks it’s neat to throw around insults, believe me friend I would love to meet you. If you feel the same then may I suggest we discover a way to do so. I enjoy a debate however being labelled such things and insulted in such a piss poor way by an obviously irrate biggot online is beyond me so please you, how can we do this?”

You know it’s not nice to threathen people with violence. It’s against the law. Mr.Bates can you here the cops knocking.

Cunter wrote:
“yaddayaddayadda. Waa waa waa.”

Oh please people have answered your dumb baseless “guestions” and made valid points which are based on FACTS. Unlike you who has done nothing but bitch about things like a little baby you are. Seriously you make claims that have no basis on reality but hey you don’t have to think and actually work your ancestors did that for you already. BTW how’s Paris Hilton doing, now there’s a person who is in your social class.

You still can’t answer it can you? Obviously you have nothing intelligent to say so STFU and leave us in peace to discuss matters close to our heart in an open and free environment.
You know it’s not nice to threathen people with violence. It’s against the law. Mr.Bates can you here the cops knocking.
Now I wonder how you would put that together? Go back to your year 9 law books and read up again. Now if you really want a threat of violence then………………..
Read your own crap wanker

Punter:

#101
“So Thomas, are you an editor?”

No, why do you ask? And, btw. why would I tell you whether I’m an editor (whatever that means) or not.

#117
“Anywya I hope by the morning I will have an answer to 3 questions that remain outstanding namely 1.How will the nanny welfare state survive without the evil rich to fund it?”

What a stupid question. Who are these evil rich that fund the “nanny welfare state”? If you can’t single them out how can you expect anyone to even take a stand to your question?

“2. Why can’t we attract foreign academics to our wonderful educational institutions with financial incentives while in other countries they are turning them away despite the fact they have to pay fees?”

So in other countries they turn away ACADEMICS that PAY FEES. What kind of “academics” go anywhere, and PAY FEES. Are you out of your mind? And I don’t think that STUDENTS – that is what you are talking about – need to be attracted to Finland with financial incentives. They have come here completely voluntarely. Without financial incentives.

“3, Hopefully MJR or a friend can explain how €500000 is considered about “normal wealth” and therefore worthy of inheritance tax when in fact for most it would be below an average financial performance for a lifetime?”

I’m not MJR and I’m not – afaik – his friend. But I’ll answer this for you, nevertheless.

The main argument – that’s how I see it – against inheritance tax is that it’s “double taxation”. This is a fairky stupid argument. Say you earn an income from a manufacturing company selling some goods on the “so-called market”. Then your income is based on purchases made by income-earners, who themselves have already paid taxes on their income. So your income is double-, thriple- and even more taxed. Regardless of the taxation system there will be effects like this. I don’t know what is behind this 500000 figure you talk about. But I see a point in having inheritance tax. If your income is taxed, i.e. income you earn from your own productive work, why shouldn’t non-productive income be taxed. Why should you be “punished” if you work, but if you get it all doing nothing, then you should be exempt? And, many economically liberal people believe, that everyone should start out with the same tools, and make their fortune themselves. Inheritance turns this around.

#122
“Firstly for my much admired anonymopus fan out there who thinks it’s neat to throw around insults, believe me friend I would love to meet you. If you feel the same then may I suggest we discover a way to do so.”

So you are appearing here non-anononymously, right? Punter is really your official name? Is it appearing in the phone-book?

uncle sam wrote: Sadly we will continue the old ways of the SDP after the elections. As one can plainly see by the comments posted, there are still plenty of fans of taxation and forced equality

I know, cutting taxes is sad. Wish we could get a real leftist government.

Punter and Uncle sam, all I can respond to you is that people are moderately content with this system. Surely we would be run by economic conservatives if we wanted to. And before you say that the welfare state has brainwashed us, I say then so has the American economically conservative state brainwashed the Americans. Of course it limits thinking-out-of-the-box but it’s kind of hard to sustain a working society without some hegemonic ideology. I’m not defending these ideologies nor am I really even sure what to think of them. But it’s very ignorant to bash Finland that we’re brainwashed, stupid, poor, or whatever just because we have high taxes. The reality is that we’re doing quite good regardless.

By the way, I think the culture of admiring millionaires is not as big in Finland as in other countries. It’s often said that we like envy more but I’m not sure. I myself don’t see the point in having millions, or billions for that matter. No one has deserved that much power without responsibility (which is embedded in political power in parlamentarism).

Short answers to Punter’s 3 questions: 1) I thought we didn’t have a big rich “class”? So how can you think they fund the welfare state? Simple answer: The welfare would survive and IS SURVIVING pretty well without rich people. Read Dave’s answer @ 125. 2) Finland is not exactly a “sexy” place to live in. Only adventurous folks come here really, which shows that people don’t really care about money so much, but other things. Besides, our universities are not that great anyway, severely underfunded. 3) Sure that figure is not that big but at least I think it’s more than enough to pass on to your kids. Also, most people’s goal in life is not to gain as much wealth as possible but they like to spend it on stuff that makes them happy (or just because they’re addicted or brainwashed). Everyone is NOT like you. I repeat: There are different people out there! They want different things, might not be smart people in your opinion but that’s just your opinion, quit whining please

“You still can’t answer it can you? Obviously you have nothing intelligent to say so STFU and leave us in peace to discuss matters close to our heart in an open and free environment.”

I don’t need to answer your retarded 4-year old questions, some already have answered to them, people who have a lot more patience with idiots like you than I will ever have.

“You know it’s not nice to threathen people with violence. It’s against the law. Mr.Bates can you here the cops knocking.
Now I wonder how you would put that together? Go back to your year 9 law books and read up again. Now if you really want a threat of violence then………………..
Read your own crap wanker”

Where did I threathen you with violence where? Please do show me and I’ll apologize. You on the other hand did threathen me in subtle way with violence what with the let’s get together [and I'll beat the shit out of you] and discuss

Cunter wrote:
“believe me friend I would love to meet you. If you feel the same then may I suggest we discover a way to do so. I enjoy a debate however being labelled such things and insulted in such a piss poor way by an obviously irrate biggot online is beyond me so please you, how can we do this?”

You don’t have to be a genious to read the messege between the lines.
Now piss off wanker.

Come on Thomas, you know what I mean. I hardly think Finalnd attracts foreigners by any significant number due to the quality educational system on offer. It is far from the top of the list on the world students shopping list as far as places to study go. However all we seem to get in any discussion about Finland is the annoying reference to Finland’s supposed worlds best education system blah blah blah and how bad it is in other countries (read USA). My point is do people really think this is true? Why do we jump to these ridiculous assumptions to justify our meager and poor standard of living? Just doesn’t make sense. As fr as paying fees go, no I’m not out of my mind. Abroad, foreign students typically pay large fees to universities and colleges in order to get study places. It is how the universities fund a great deal of their expenses. Now, why are they willing to pay to study in eg: The US, Australia but here, where they are able to get student benefits and free education, they are hardly waiting in line?
As for ypur answers to the other questions, thaks for taking the time. I agree to disagree with your answer to 3 and inheritance atx but it will probably come up on a new post Phil started Not sure what you mean in no.1 but thanks anyway for your wisdom.

The inheritance tax? Well, I think it is just a good insurance policy against overt “aristocratization” of the society. Abilities are often not inherited and to keep a level playing field we need funds to keep the educational system open and effective, the same with national health and some other central safety nets. So, it is naturally good for people to make fortunes, but also crucial to keep the number of selfmade people as high as possible, in every generation – the greater the permanent, hereditary “overclass” the more closed to competition societies tend to get. But naturally we should not punish ordinary hard working people that fairly easily can accumulate ca 0,5 million euro properties. Anything over that should be taxed, not because of envy or class hatred, but as a social safety measure. Surely, people can even then bequeth large properties to often undeserving offspring that can then have the desired edge over those children that can only compete based on personal abilities and talents (provided of course, that they even have access to affordable high quality education).

“why are they willing to pay to study in eg: The US, Australia but here, where they are able to get student benefits and free education, they are hardly waiting in line?”

maybe its because you actually have to know something to get in. You know money just doesn’t cut it.
BTW there are a quite an hefty number of foreigners in Finlands universities and they had to do something else rather than just having a rich daddy.

Punter:

“Come on Thomas, you know what I mean. I hardly think Finalnd attracts foreigners by any significant number due to the quality educational system on offer.”

Punter, I do not know what you’re babbling about. During my own academic career, I co-worked, and published academic papers, with post-docs from both Oxford AND Cambridge. They were sharp guys, but then, they came to Finland volunteerly. They asked for the opportunity. Since one is a tenured professor in England, and one is working for Intel, I don’t see their visit to Finland as extremely unfruitful.

“However all we seem to get in any discussion about Finland is the annoying reference to Finland’s supposed worlds best education system blah blah blah and how bad it is in other countries (read USA). My point is do people really think this is true?”

Pisa-scores show otherwise. Like it or not.

“Why do we jump to these ridiculous assumptions to justify our meager and poor standard of living?”

I don’t know of your standard of living. Mine’s pretty good. Compared with the standard of living of 90% of the worlds human beings. I’m not requiring that much more. Oh, sure, like winter I would like to have 17 cars and 13 boats. NOT.

“As fr as paying fees go, no I’m not out of my mind. Abroad, foreign students typically pay large fees to universities and colleges in order to get study places.”

So you say that free universities do not attract TOP class students, and now you would like to introduce a fee? You are out of your mind. Or at least you are not logical.

“I agree to disagree with your answer to 3 and inheritance atx but it will probably come up on a new post Phil started ”

Feel free. But – afaik – many so called economic liberals even think that inheritance taxes (even 100%) are justified. I think inheritance taxes are a way to achieve wht MJR was talking about. Social mobility. I don’t see much good in socially immobile societies. That makes me think of medieval times. Or, the US.

“Not sure what you mean in no.1 but thanks anyway for your wisdom.”

Well since you talked about the filthy rich being the ones providing THE GOODS on which everybody else lives, I would like to know who they are. Usually when middle-class workers (e.g. nurses) start demanding substantial wage raises, e.g. motivated by high wage raises of the executive class, the motivation for neglecting these demands is that the effect would be so severe to society in terms of costs. Now if this is the case, don’t you think that the effect these people have on the tax-funding is EQUALLY substantial?

“I think inheritance taxes are a way to achieve wht MJR was talking about. Social mobility.”

Sure is. So mobile in fact, that Finns locate their assets and even residences away from Finland. Our country has lost a significant amount of its wealth that way.
.
.

I don’t care about pollution
I’m an air-conditioned gypsy
That’s my solution
Watch the police and the tax man miss me
I’m mobile
Oooooh, yeah, hee!

The Who

As taken from their Web page- “(PISA) is an assessment that focuses on 15-year-olds’ capabilities in reading literacy, mathematics literacy, and science literacy” Sorry but again WTF has this got to do with anything other than the fact Finns have a good start to their education? Where does it take them from there if the tertiary standard is unable to cut it on an international level? Like so many things in Finland it seems we take off like a house on fire and then when the foundations are laid we get lazy and accept mediocracy. A spin off from the system perhaps? Near enough is not good enough especially in a world of greatness.

I guess Punter agrees with me as he’s not responding to my posts.

Punter:

“As taken from their Web page- “(PISA) is an assessment that focuses on 15-year-olds’ capabilities in reading literacy, mathematics literacy, and science literacy” Sorry but again WTF has this got to do with anything other than the fact Finns have a good start to their education?”

The comment I addressed was the following one: “However all we seem to get in any discussion about Finland is the annoying reference to Finland’s supposed worlds best education system blah blah blah and how bad it is in other countries (read USA).”

So do we have a good education system, or do we? If you say the education is NOT good, and the next thing you say is the START of education is good, then we are coming closer to a total collapse of your arguments. Now I’m claiming there are people from top universities applying for post-docs in e.g. computer science. Then it seems our top-level education is good as well. I find it pretty hard to believe it would fail on any level, given these records.

“Where does it take them from there if the tertiary standard is unable to cut it on an international level? Like so many things in Finland it seems we take off like a house on fire and then when the foundations are laid we get lazy and accept mediocracy. A spin off from the system perhaps? Near enough is not good enough especially in a world of greatness.”

I think I comprehend english quite well, and I think I’m capable of understanding a LOGICAL argument, expressed in english. But this has got to be one of the strangest statements I’ve heard/read. Are you sure even you know what your babbling about in the above sentences?

Kristian:

“Sure is. So mobile in fact, that Finns locate their assets and even residences away from Finland. ”

You’ve been playing this record for weeks. Without end. Now, show your proof. Where are the numbers? I don’t think I need to read these opinions of yours, unless you are able to substantiate. So far, you haven’t been able to. Now, give the proof for your claim.

And – btw. – I’m not talking about senior citisens selling their finnish assets and moving to Spain. That is not the kind of movement you imply. I’m talking about such assets, like e.g. the assets of Pekka Herlin. Haven’t seen those moving anywhere outside of Finland.

Punter. Do not even try to fight about politics with Finns who are hell bent on Finland following the swedish “folks hemmet” politics.

The thing is. Finland has people who understand what you are saying, but we are a minority.

I just stumpled on the election promises of a unnamed politician in US. He promised to keep the taxes down while trying to create more jobs in his county.

That is American thinking for you.

In Finland, we have people promising monthly payments from the goverment to all the people.

That is just how Finland is at the moment.

It will change.

We just have to crash to the wall first.

I already thought we were on our way when the stockmarkets started slipping. Only the nerve of American investors kept the global economy from crashing.

Back in 1993 we were “saved” by 50 billion loan package negotiated by Iiro Viinanen (and the success of Nokia afterwards). When the next recession comes. We most likely will get strict guide lines from the world bank on how to spend the money we are going to loan to keep our system working while the recession will last. (because we are already deeply in debt)

And that will probably be the last nail on the coffin of our system.

If Estonia is going to do as well as I think it will. In about 10 years time, we might change from following the Swedish system to following the Estonian one. But the “old guard” has to croak for that to happen.

Once Estonia is richer than Finland. When people go there and see fancier cars and richer people. Jealousy will make us want to change too.

And no, I wont discuss about this.I know that certain Finns just want to mock Estonia and say that what I am saying will never happen. Well, they can say it as much as they want. Well see.. In ten years time.

I think the recession will start first with stock market crash, it will cause mass layoffs / bankrupcies, after that the real estate market will croak.. Once that happens, a lot of people are going to become ward of the state and imf is going to say “No, no! You can not give all that loaned money to the people”..If we will anyway, then we are doomed. We are going to become like one of the south american countries.

This might seem weird me saying this at the moment as Finland is raking in the cash. But I am just pointing out that our system is gazzling tax money like a tank and while it might work right now. It just does not stand a chance during a recession.

I just hope they wont counter this with somekind of recession time capitalism, while switching back to full blown folks hemmet system after the recession has passed.

STP:

“The thing is. Finland has people who understand what you are saying, but we are a minority.”

Thank god. There are idiots worldwide who might UNDERSTAND Punter.

“Back in 1993 we were “saved” by 50 billion loan package negotiated by Iiro Viinanen (and the success of Nokia afterwards). When the next recession comes. We most likely will get strict guide lines from the world bank on how to spend the money we are going to loan to keep our system working while the recession will last. (because we are already deeply in debt)”

Deeply in debt. Are you kidding. According to the OECD (not a LEFT wing activist network, afaik) the finnish PUBLIC ECONOMY is net-indebtless. Unlike many of the OECD low-tax paradises.

“And no, I wont discuss about this.I know that certain Finns just want to mock Estonia and say that what I am saying will never happen. Well, they can say it as much as they want. Well see.. In ten years time.”

We’ll do, but let’s hope this comparison is not based on cars, since that is simply the worst INVESTMENT object there is, and if Estonians INVEST in cars in the future, too bad for them. Because they won’t be BUILDING any.

“I think the recession will start first with stock market crash, it will cause mass layoffs / bankrupcies, after that the real estate market will croak.. Once that happens, a lot of people are going to become ward of the state and imf is going to say “No, no! You can not give all that loaned money to the people”..If we will anyway, then we are doomed. We are going to become like one of the south american countries.”

What LOANED money is that? And what does the IMF have to do with Finland? You’re foaming on like winter.

“This might seem weird me saying this at the moment as Finland is raking in the cash. But I am just pointing out that our system is gazzling tax money like a tank and while it might work right now. It just does not stand a chance during a recession.”

What’s so different now, than during the 90′s crisis? If Finland survived then, why wouldn’t it now?

“I just hope they wont counter this with somekind of recession time capitalism, while switching back to full blown folks hemmet system after the recession has passed.”

????????

Libertarian logic at it’s brightest?

STP: “This might seem weird me saying this at the moment as Finland is raking in the cash.”

What cash? You mean that which we collect from running on the wage treadmill?

We’re wage earners, but that’s it. Foreign worker-investors collect all the profits from our labor. The Finnish worker just keeps running……

#148 All due to Finland’s over-taxation, by the way.

Kristian, you really are quite removed from empirical reality, with all due respect – a rarity on this site, you are an (extreme) right winger that can spell, think and be polite, simultaneously! Would not have believed that I would call that a rare feat, but maybe they add something to libertarian drinking water… In any case, the only brick wall that is visibly and rapidly approaching is the coming credit crunch of the wildly overspending US governmental (and private) finance. We have currently a very dynamic high growth and high tech economy that also manages to keep social mobility high and keeps the playing field for ALL children fairly level. True, we might end up gradually in difficulties as globalization intensifies, but that is true of all Western economies, the US included. Luckily we have at least not adopted the old libertarian principle of credit financing our government.

Although STP clearly hasn’t done his homework, one fact has obviously managed to penetrate his head: Finland copes badly with world-wide recessions. But, contrary to what he thinks, it has nothing to do with the so-called “welfare state” (hell, I don’t know if it’s even correct to call Finland a welfare state) but almost completely with our dependence on exports/imports. And that again depends on the small size of our economy, something we can’t fix no matter what.

As for the Finnish universities, I don’t think that anybody should call them excellent. How could they be when all 10+ universities have to get by with a budget that is the same size as that of a single top American university? And yet, and despite of the useless language, almost unbearable winter and what not, about 7% of the postgraduates are foreigners. That probably means that certain fields within universities are doing fine internationally.

As for the taxes, the rich don’t definitely finance Finland’s budget, the middle class does. That’s true in every rich country but especially in Finland where a bigger part of the taxes than in most other countries is collected from incomes, not from capital gains and the like. Finland’s total tax burden, about 44%, is something like three percent points above the EU15 average, by the way, and it’s been going down for years now.

What else … Oh yeah, I wouldn’t call the rich evil. Especially not those who either have made themselves their fortunes or at least take good care of what they have inherited – and don’t fly to Riviera for breakfast. In fact, a vast majority of the Finns think positively of entrepreneurs (was it something like 80%?). Consequently, the number of firms is relatively high.

mjr:

“Kristian, you really are quite removed from empirical reality, with all due respect – a rarity on this site, you are an (extreme) right winger that can spell, think and be polite, simultaneously!”

Thanks! I enjoy your posts, too. However, I am NOT a right winger—neither extreme nor otherwise. And in economic terms, I’m not even sure if the Libertarians would fully accept me.

Insofar as empirical reality, Finland isn’t my only residence, so it’s quite easy to make comparisons.

“In any case, the only brick wall that is visibly and rapidly approaching is the coming credit crunch of the wildly overspending US governmental (and private) finance.”

We’d better hope it doesn’t happen, because then who’ll fund Finnish industry?

At least we’ll still have the Swiss perhaps

“Luckily we have at least not adopted the old libertarian principle of credit financing our government.”

Finland’s debt is roughly 40% of GDP. America’s is 65%. America’s debt has been lower in the past, but also much higher. To a certain extent, debt can be used for strategic purposes. But, at this point, the US should probably look for ways to avoid increasing it.

Or we’ll have problems here in Finland, since Finland can’t sustain itself without investment Dollars (and Francs of course).

http://zfacts.com/p/318.html”

“We have currently a very dynamic high growth and high tech economy that also manages to keep social mobility high and keeps the playing field for ALL children fairly level.”

Growth is due to the foreign-financed high tech industry. Without it, due to our own lack of wealth and initiative, our local economy couldn’t sustain itself.

Insofar as social mobility, all western European countries have it. However, most have the added advantage of self-sustaining local economies with–e.g.—local businesses. These affect career choices that people make.

Whereas the Finn is ‘forced’ into working for a faceless foreign-owned corporation, someone in another European country has a choice of EITHER working for a corporation OR following—e.g.—his father’s footsteps in a family business. Many times the latter is the more attractive personal choice.

Hence, we like to talk about social mobility here in Finland, but what we really have is a LACK OF CHOICE.

Well, you libertarians truly are non-chalant about debt… For some reason there is wide spread consensus of top economists that the US deficit (both public and private) is very alarming indeed. Hmm, I’m sure the good old libertarian thinking beats any actual expertise!

About the billionaires, maybe they could make themselves useful and borrow some extra-debt to the US government for it to take care of ALL of the nation’s children… Below the first paragraph of the NY Times lead editorial today:

The Next Big Health Care Battle

At a time when the nation is pondering how to provide medical coverage to some 47 million uninsured Americans, it is logical and right to start with the country’s nine million uninsured children. The Bush administration, unfortunately, is going in exactly the opposite direction.

Or we’ll have problems here in Finland, since Finland can’t sustain itself without investment Dollars (and Francs of course).

Kronor rather – and “Finnish” Euros in Sweden. Anyway, when everybody else thinks that foreign investments, both direct and indirect, are fine you have this theory that they are evil. I just don’t get it. Particularly when foreign investments are just a fraction of domestic ones.

Growth is due to the foreign-financed high tech industry.

Bull. Every branch within the industries is doing well: forestry, metal, and chemical.

Insofar as social mobility, all western European countries have it.

That’s one opinion. Then again there are people who actually have studied the subject. And, alas, according to them there is a lot more social mobility in Finland and other Nordic countries than any other first world country.

By the way, Heini Wathén could be an additional Finnish billionaire.

“Kronor rather – and “Finnish” Euros in Sweden.”

Sweden might be the biggest direct investor. But America and Switzerland are the biggest indirect investors. So perhaps we shouldn’t hope for America’s demise quite yet.

“Anyway, when everybody else thinks that foreign investments, both direct and indirect, are fine you have this theory that they are evil.”

It’s perfectly fine. How much foreign investment do Finns themselves own?

How much foreign investment do Finns themselves own?

A lot. But isn’t it your job to dig up the figures if you think they are hugely relevant. I don’t.

Pave I think he got overwhelmed.

Thanks for writing intelligently btw.

“‘How much foreign investment do Finns themselves own?’

A lot. But isn’t it your job to dig up the figures if you think they are hugely relevant. I don’t.”

Oh I think it’s very relevant. Because, relatively speaking, if foreign entities have greater net-ownership than Finns themselves, then profit is flowing out of Finland.

You really think Finns own a lot, eh?
http://www.finlandforthought.net/2006/12/07/finlands-net-worth-per-capita-lowest-in-old-eu-by-alot/

Kristian, just possibly this property owning statistic relates to our late industrialization. Not to mention that we fought the WW2 with our own money, and paid reparations, and lost 13% of our land area and considerable industrial capacity. It is only during our “social democratic” era that we started to catch on: maybe high taxes then are good for property! In any case, I would not really try to find causes from the last 40 years as this is the time when we have actually started to do better. So, maybe, just maybe we could leave this blatant red herring out of the debate? This would go for you too, Phil… Well, one can always hope.

How many bloody times do we have to hear that “we fought WW2 with our own money and paid all our war reparations?” Antone would think the Finns were the only people involved in WW2. What about the destruction of Japan and their suffering? They seem to have kicked on, taken their heads out of their asses and moved forward. Sorry for my rudeness but this Finnish habit of constantly look back at past events and walking under a grey cloud of “this happened to us and we had to do this” is just so F ing frustrating. You are NOT the only country to have suffered at the hands of evil aggression but seem only too keen to remember this. Maybe when as a nation you become strong enough and have an identity of your own that you can trust then you will be ready, as a nation, to leave your past behind and catch up to the rest of the world. I jsut hope it happens soon as the train is leaving the station.

Why can’t we do it if Israel is doing it too? Truth to be told you completely missed the point on that one again.What are you stupid.

Punter, I’m a bit at loss: we really were the last Western country to industrialize, we really had to manage on our own with the Soviet Union after the war without any friendly Marshall aid and so on. It really does explain why we have much less property than Sweden which has much more property per head despite of having even more longstanding and heavier welfare structures. So, unless you are angling for some kind of genetic or racial inferiority, I would really find the explanation for this from our past. Btw, you do sound curiously like you would be personally aggrieved by our plucky little Finland – has the nation done you some injury?

So lets build a wall and stockpile nuclear weapons too. I mean Israel is doing so why can’t we??? Ah… I missed the point. Would think so FN

Interesting how evil the USA is. We win a war, give out Marshall aid, leave the country (well sort of, we are still in Germany, but moving on to poland), help you win the Yugo war (Paid 95% of the cost there no less), and now we get great (Hick… must be the rum) support after we are attacked and lose 3,000 in New York.

Must be the rum. Have got to start acting like the Russiana and Chinese. Learn to not help, or give you anything, and cut off gas right when it gets cold.

Oh winter, if only we would have the likes of Kennedy, Truman and Eisenhower leading the USA. Not to speak of FDR. What we now have in the leadership are moral and intellectual pygmies produced by money and lobbyist infested political system. Maybe too many billionaires around?

Blame that no good money again. Nothing quite as evil as money for turning all those perfectly good people into pigs. BTW, people produce the money not the money producing people. At least from a strict scientific standpoint….

Sorry mjr but you’ve obviously forgotten your sad little story about poor little Finland followíng the war and missing all that money sent to the rest of Europe was covered previously here. Enjoy

http://www.finlandforthought.net/2006/12/13/us-secretly-rebuilds-finland-after-wwii/

Kristian:

“Finland’s debt is roughly 40% of GDP.”

Finland is non-debted in terms of the public economy. That is net-debt, i.e. “finacial assets”-debts. A calculation you should know of since you constantly write and complain about debt.

Compare that to any of those low-taxation paradises of yours, and explain why their net-debt is not the result of lower tax rates. Then come back and tell us why tax rates should be lowered.

Punter, #168: You might be on to something, but only if you think that the fact that Finland had the possibility to buy surplus war material from the US on discount is comparable with receiving free Marshall Aid, that is, money the recipients actually never payed back.

Receiving a loan, however cheap, is not the same thing as getting a gift. Remember, also the countries getting Marshall Aid did buy the same surplus stuff on similarly lenient terms.

Concerning the question on few foreign people attending Finnish universities, although education is free. Has anyone here noticed that most university education in Finland is offered in Finnish, which sort of limits its attraction to non-Finnish speakers?