Breadlines in the welfare state
Hundreds of Finland’s poor stand out in freezing cold temperatures twice a week to get free food from stores that normally would thrown away.
“Number 16″, a male voice calls out, as if it were a game of bingo. People with the number 16 on their cards get to go inside.
Rautala and volunteer worker Sinikka Backman feel that the distribution of food is more like the Lotto than a bingo game: the food that is available is that which the stores have not managed to sell. There is enough bread, prepared foods, vegetables, and sausage for everyone. The lucky ones can get cakes, chicken fillets, turkey slices, Brie cheese, or spaghetti casserole.
[...]“The unemployed cannot afford to buy vegetables”, says Tiina from Pihlajamäki.
Would you please stop referring to Finland as a welfare state. Finland is not a proper welfare state any longer, hasn’t been after the recession in the 1990’s. These bread cues are the direct result of systematic downgrading of the welfare safety net.
Comment by Ã…boy — Wed, Feb 28th, 2007 @ 2:09 pm
Well, let’s see. The OECD’s 2006 recommendations are:
+Lower income taxes;
+Draft more flexible central wage agreements; and
+Target welfare better to avoid unemployment and poverty traps.
http://www.oecd.org/document/36/0,2340,en_33873108_33873360_36552804_1_1_1_1,00.html
I have no illusion that the people in the picture could miraculously be employed somewhere. But the reality is: If Finland were a well-functioning, high-gdp economy that doesn’t rely so heavily on foreign investment (or which profits flow to investors outside of the country)it might even be possible for these people to get bread and vegetables without standing in long lines!
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Wed, Feb 28th, 2007 @ 2:10 pm
I’ve been wondering, how was the welfare downgraded during the recession?
Comment by maissi — Wed, Feb 28th, 2007 @ 2:19 pm
These bread cues are the direct result of systematic downgrading of the welfare safety net.
There were no breadlines at all in the 60’s, 70’s or 80’s ?
Comment by Phil — Wed, Feb 28th, 2007 @ 2:48 pm
There were no breadlines at all in the 60’s, 70’s or 80’s ?
There was NO BREAD.
Comment by FinnFreak — Wed, Feb 28th, 2007 @ 2:53 pm
I’m just curious about one thing; As the US isn’t a welfare-state, then how come that the number of poor, compared to the number of citizens, is higher than in Finland?
Will there ever be a society where we haven’t got poor people?
Comment by Mikael — Wed, Feb 28th, 2007 @ 3:12 pm
Those people who cant afford to buy food are alcoholics or drug users who spend all their money on those. I am currently unemployed and I get 380e a month plus full rent, witch is 150e more than usual student gets without loan. That is well enough to buy food.
Comment by Beaver — Wed, Feb 28th, 2007 @ 3:27 pm
Beaver: How would you do if you had 5 kids to support as well?
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, Feb 28th, 2007 @ 3:35 pm
#6 America’s ex-slave ghettos attribute highly to that number. Then you have the hispanic barrios, etc. US poverty correlates almost entirely with ethnicity. America’s extenuating social factors are nothing like what we have here in Finland.
In my experience, any success that a society has with maintaining high living standards for poor people, can be attributed to its urban planning. For example, creating housing that doesn’t segregate part of the population from other parts, good public transit, bike-road network so owning a car isn’t necessary.
America fails in those last two points. The segregation part is hard to avoid though. Again, due to ethnicity and perhaps a tendency to self-segregate.
The actual ‘paying’ for poor people’s subsistence is relatively cheap; largely, they can live-off the left-over consumption of others. Of course, if you live in a low-consumption economy, then there won’t be much to distribute at the bottom end.
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Wed, Feb 28th, 2007 @ 3:40 pm
“I have no illusion that the people in the picture could miraculously be employed somewhere.”
- Yes, like being a bus or truck driver. There always seems to be openings for those positions and while driving busses and trucks is a skill, it is one that can be learned by most everyone and is not required at the time of hiring because the employer will train you.
- How many people that showed up for this givaway have jobs and are well enough not to need handouts, but showed up anyway because, well because the food was being given away for free.
Comment by Fred Fry — Wed, Feb 28th, 2007 @ 3:45 pm
I am currently unemployed and I get 380e a month plus full rent
My weekly shopping bill is like 80 euros, sometimes higher. And that’s not including lunches I eat during the workweek, or anything from Alko. With that unemployment check, you barely have enough left over for anything else.
Comment by Phil — Wed, Feb 28th, 2007 @ 3:59 pm
How many people that showed up for this givaway have jobs and are well enough not to need handouts, but showed up anyway because, well because the food was being given away for free.
Exactly.
…and let’s not forget the FREE Extra Virgin Olive Oil..!
Many of the relatively well off elder citizens (some are for sure in those pictures) didn’t acquire their wealth from an extraordinary income - but from the traditional Finnish sport of “stretching the penni”… over the top consuming & showing off is in many regions of Finland almost considered a mortal sin…
Comment by FinnFreak — Wed, Feb 28th, 2007 @ 4:07 pm
#10 Fred, that sounds a bit cynical
I don’t think we need to force people into jobs. If you look closely, those are older people. I would rather just see life made better for them, without any attached strings.
In my opinion, a strong economy can support a certain number of freeloaders. Everybody needs a vacation every now and then
The important thing is that there are jobs available to those who want them—especially the men, because they’re most prone to cause trouble for society if left idle. Of course, that’s difficult in a centralized, high-tax Finn-economy. Better just to stack the unemployeds in tenement ghettos and pretend they don’t exist.
By the way, I wonder how much of the welfare payments go toward paying for overpriced Alko-hol. In Germany, an alcoholic welfare recipient can buy a large jug of wine 2.5e. Not to mention cheap food due to a lower-tax economy.
Much easier for the taxpayers to digest
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Wed, Feb 28th, 2007 @ 4:12 pm
Wow, 80€ a week on food shopping! What on earth are you buying?? I think I not much more than half of that.
Anyway, I wonder how many people as Fred Fry does, are actually there just because it is free and rather than actually needing it. There is a strange mentality of hording and grabbing anything that is free, especially amongst the eldery who have grown up in harder times. My grandmothers would never throw anything away!
Anyhow, it is of course bad that we have any poverty. But the relative situation in this “welfare state” is better than many many other countries, so for that at least we can be thankful.. .but not complacent.
Comment by JG — Wed, Feb 28th, 2007 @ 4:14 pm
Hmm, I think for once Phil truly does have the trump card: in a really capitalistic society they would starve, see, no breadqueues! And a bone to Fred also: additionally they would not be able to pass on their defective genes! So there you go. Why can’t we have this utopia already???
Comment by mjr — Wed, Feb 28th, 2007 @ 4:56 pm
How many people that showed up for this givaway have jobs and are well enough not to need handouts, but showed up anyway because, well because the food was being given away for free.
Could the same be said about the breadlines in the states?
Comment by Phil — Wed, Feb 28th, 2007 @ 5:12 pm
By the way, I wonder how much of the welfare payments go toward paying for overpriced Alko-hol.
Yeah exactly. What’s the VAT on food here? Like 22%? (or was it dropped to 17 already?) Whichever it is, that’s way too much. If people can’t afford food, high taxes are responsible.
Comment by Phil — Wed, Feb 28th, 2007 @ 5:14 pm
Wow, 80€ a week on food shopping! What on earth are you buying??
I should have mentioned that feeds two people.
Hmm, I think for once Phil truly does have the trump card: in a really capitalistic society they would starve, see, no breadqueues!
Errrr…this is all done by volunteers, same goes for the states.
Comment by Phil — Wed, Feb 28th, 2007 @ 5:16 pm
Oh my God, Finland is not perfect! Who would’ve thought.
Comment by Fudge — Wed, Feb 28th, 2007 @ 5:33 pm
“Fred, that sounds a bit cynical”
Not really. (Or maybe so.) I lived in Hakaniemi and the Union located there often staged soup lines and other free food givaways. (They never did have a table noting available jobs though.)
Often they were giving away good stuff and I would have taken some as well if it were not for the line of people waiting for a handout. Maybe if they used the number system I could have sat and had a possu munkki and waited for my turn, but I don’t bother standing in any line if there are more than three people. And as far as I was concerned, I could have used the food as well. After all, at the end of the month my bank account was empty like everybody elses. And if you watch, those same people accepting handouts did go and get coffee and whatever from the mrket square. Hardly sensable for those with money problems.
Funny that the tax office is not at the end of the line handing out VAT invoices for 22% of the value of the food they take. (Or did they collect it already since the company can’t claim back the VAT they paid to the supplier?)
Comment by Fred Fry — Wed, Feb 28th, 2007 @ 6:00 pm
“And if you watch, those same people accepting handouts did go and get coffee and whatever from the mrket square. Hardly sensable for those with money problems.”
Yeah, the whole economy is like a big Ponzi scheme. Unfortunately, our standard of living is reduced due to the resulting high prices for goods and services.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Wed, Feb 28th, 2007 @ 6:51 pm
When you have a lack of money, you have to spend it very wisely. If you can have free items and you have time cue it- there will always people for that. Some of them actually can afford to by food themselves, but they can have more to spent if they can some basic items free, If they are standing in cue, it doesn’t mean that they are starving to death.
I think the cues are here to stay becaause of different reason, but the fact is that people living in Finland are likely going to die because of food, like it can be in many other country. There will be always poor people in every country who suffering because of many different reasons. Maybe in Finland reasons can be different than for ex. in Usa but I thing problems to solve there are more difficult than here.
Comment by Timo — Wed, Feb 28th, 2007 @ 7:10 pm
Breadlines sure would have been a national disgrace at high noon of Kekkoslovakian welfare state and many people were appalled, when they first arrived into common consciousness in the beginning of the 90’s. Salvation Army had their customers even before though, but I guess they were not lining up on streets at that time yet.
People are there for various reasons. Many people are still paying their own or friends or relatives debt from the 80’s to the bank from whatever money they got.
Yes, wartime people are in their own class. Coffee sale somewhere gets you stampeded and run over by rollaattori and after visit of the Great Democrat, their estates may run into hidden rice and flour reserves enough to feed a village. There was one of this kind in my family insisting on removing stuff from the freezer in winter and putting it outside instead to save electricity. Guess what happens, if they learn about free food available somewhere.
Comment by Antti (the redneck one) — Wed, Feb 28th, 2007 @ 7:32 pm
If someone was to write Robert Schutz’s “The 30,000 Solution” with Finland in mind what might it look like?
For those who haven’t heard of Schutz’s work, here’s a debriefer:
http://www.earthlight.org/essay44_roszak.html
or
http://www.progress.org/dividend/cdpress.html
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, Feb 28th, 2007 @ 7:37 pm
Excellent points about wartime folks, Antti, if I may add the yoghurt can top collection that has been accumulating for a few decades. You never know when you might need them.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Wed, Feb 28th, 2007 @ 9:50 pm
Darn it guys and gals.
Its the High taxes. You keep them high to keep the bread line going. I can’t see any other reason you would force these folks out of work, by having such high taxes in the first place.
So please, for the little guys stomach, raise your French white flag of surrender, you are real good at this, and lower the TAXES.
Comment by winter — Wed, Feb 28th, 2007 @ 11:27 pm
US poverty correlates almost entirely with ethnicity.
Kristian (in Espoo)
The poor in America has nothing to do with there ethnicities. It is a class system not a ethnic issue. The have and have nots. A large portion of the poor in the United states own their own houses,and eat the minimum amount of calories a day. Bus, trains, taxis are widely available, and these people have assets. The major problem with people nowadays is living beyond their means. Instead of one house they are going for the beach house, the bigger car, and the clothes and jewelry. Yet still a majority of the poor in the states live better then in most of the poor in Europe and Finland. I find the biggest issue facing Finland is a lack of drive. Many are content to collect money from the government and take care of their family and go to the bar. They have no need to travel and get around fine on the bus.
Comment by Kourtney N. Williams — Wed, Feb 28th, 2007 @ 11:40 pm
Heck, we just had a study on the poor in America. Found out they are fat.
Yea, it sure sucks to live in a country where the Fat folks are poor. It use to be the other way around.
Turning the BBC on:
But wait… Kristian only has the BBC on, so those Israel shells that hit the poor palistian family on the beach were not, and I repeat not, a planted Palistian land mine they just happened to put their chairs on.
Turning the BBC off.
Comment by winter — Thu, Mar 1st, 2007 @ 12:13 am
Now this I have to join, thus not retiring my 5 cars, 2 boats, and 3 chainsaws:
“Well rejoice, sinner! Carbon atonement is no longer the exclusive preserve of the Malibu set  with the Iowahawk EcoPals Network! This unique new system lets you, the average Joe planet rapist, cleanse your tortured psyche of the stain of enviro-guilt for as little as $9.95 per year! If enough of you follow this simple three step program, we can save the world for our children  who will soon be frolicking with healthy polar bears atop Earth’s reforested glaciers. Act now before it’s too late!”
Comment by winter — Thu, Mar 1st, 2007 @ 12:32 am
Wow, Looks like from the picture there is a huge variety of FREE food to choose from. Does this much food really go unsold?
Comment by Rick — Thu, Mar 1st, 2007 @ 12:37 am
“My weekly shopping bill is like 80 euros, sometimes higher.”
There are only two in our household, so we eat out a lot because it cheaper than buying groceries. However, I still manage to spend at least 100 euros at the grocery store each week, and it’s on basic stuff like soda, bread, yogurt, milk, etc. Food is very expensive in Finland…no great deals or quality like you find in grocery stores in the US.
Comment by Persnickety — Thu, Mar 1st, 2007 @ 1:00 am
My weekly shopping bill is like 80 euros, sometimes higher.
!
Cans of tuna and noodles everyday for dinner?
Comment by gopha — Thu, Mar 1st, 2007 @ 1:41 am
My weekly shopping bill is 30-40 euros, I am a student, live alone and try to buy cheap groceries.
Comment by Passer-by — Thu, Mar 1st, 2007 @ 1:49 am
Wow! 80e/week or 100e/week is really a lot when you think about it. In Germany, we spend less than that for both of us.
Lunch at a restaurant is dirt cheap too—kebap is about 2.90e, asian take-out is 3.50e, a schnitzel sandwich at the gas station is 2.50e. And a .5L beer at the gas station is 1e, a bottle of wine is 3.50e….
Aside from food, the auto is filled with lots of good german beer when returning from Germany. The less money spent here in Finland, the better for our savings account
Finn-prices are ridiculous. It’s no wonder those people will find every opportunity to get free food. Economically speaking, it’s the finnish Ponzi game. Nobody benefits in the end.
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Thu, Mar 1st, 2007 @ 2:00 am
Take the Phil environmental test, and contribute to his beer fund.
STEP 1: Catalog Your Sins
Your first step on the road to salvation is to take a frank inventory of your eco-transgressions. When answering the following questions, remember to be honest. We are all sinners in the eyes of Gaia, and it is important not to incur her wrath by fibbing.
1. Did your home consume less than 220,000 Kilowatt hours in 2006?
2. Was your combined residential energy bill less than $30,000 in 2006?
3. When your are traveling the three blocks from your hotel to the Palm d’Or Ceremony at Cannes, do you and your entourage use less than five SUVs?
4. When you travel to Berkeley to lecture on greenhouse gases, do you balance your multiple-limousine motorcade with at least one Prius?
5. In the previous year, did you travel less than 1 million miles on private and commercial jets?
6. In the previous five years have you, and members your immediate family, successfully avoided arrest for speeding and/or driving high in a Cadillac?
If you answered “no” to any of these questions, don’t worry — you can still reach salvation. Simply keep track of the number of “no” answers and proceed to Step 2.
STEP 2: Calculate Carbon Credits
As we say in the environmental community, now it’s time to “pay the piper” for your carbon use. If you answered “yes” to ALL of the questions in Step 1, your fee is $9.95. For each “no” answer, add an additional $19.95, plus $4.95 carbon credit shipping and handling.
Once you have calculated your total fee, send it to Phil via the “Beer Fund” tip jar located on the left sidebar.
Comment by winter — Thu, Mar 1st, 2007 @ 2:42 am
I wonder how many of those queuing for bread are Romani
Comment by Fägäri — Thu, Mar 1st, 2007 @ 4:45 am
I wonder how many of those queuing for bread are Romani
hah.
…I couldn’t see any Mercedes or Volvos in the pictures, so my firm guess is: zero.
Comment by FinnFreak — Thu, Mar 1st, 2007 @ 11:42 am
“A large portion of the poor in the United states own their own houses,and eat the minimum amount of calories a day. Bus, trains, taxis are widely available, and these people have assets. The major problem with people nowadays is living beyond their means. Instead of one house they are going for the beach house, the bigger car, and the clothes and jewelry.”
It sure is easy for people working in three jobs and barely have money to feed their family let alone afford college for their children and health insurance and if something rises that need medical attention like a broken arm you can kiss that money you saved for food goodbye.
I guess they are just spending too much.
“I find the biggest issue facing Finland is a lack of drive. Many are content to collect money from the government and take care of their family and go to the bar. They have no need to travel and get around fine on the bus.”
Sorry buddie but I have yet not met anyone here in Finland who likes to be unemployed and I should know I deal with these people daily.
Comment by Anonymous — Thu, Mar 1st, 2007 @ 1:18 pm
Kourtney:
“The poor in America has nothing to do with there ethnicities. â€Â
You have to look at relative proportions, not absolute figures.
http://www.bsos.umd.edu/socy/vanneman/socy441/trends/povrace.html
.
.
“It is a class system not a ethnic issue.â€Â
And not surprisingly, class correlates highly with ethnicity. However, I do believe the relative proportions will continue to converge.
.
.
“ A large portion of the poor in the United states own their own houses,and eat the minimum amount of calories a day.â€Â
I do agree that many own houses, either due to inheritance or perhaps they had good jobs prior to becoming poor. As for eating minimum calories…. I don’t think McDonalds’ marketing department would agree with you
.
.
“ Bus, trains, taxis are widely available, and these people have assets.â€Â
I don’t see America as a public transit land. Some cities have gotten better, but for the most part you still need a car in the US. That’s very expensive for a poor person. If it breaks-down, or if driving privileges are lost, then the job is lost too. Very stressful.
Generally, US urban planning is probably worst of any industrialized nation on Earth. And speaking of Earth, try using Google Earth and scan over the US and then over Europe—even Russia. You’ll see that the US was not planned effectively from the beginning. Good thing those houses are made of cardboard and plastic; easier to bulldoze and start over.
.
.
“ The major problem with people nowadays is living beyond their means.â€Â
Absolutely true for many. I only wish we had such a wealthy economy that would enable that type of consumption. Even if we din’t actually consume that much.
.
.
“Yet still a majority of the poor in the states live better then in most of the poor in Europe and Finland.â€Â
In monetary terms, that’s true. But again, that urban planning sucks for them (in my opinion). It wouldn’t have cost any more to plan the US right. Americans just made bad choices as a society, throughout history.
.
.
“ I find the biggest issue facing Finland is a lack of drive.â€Â
In some ways that’s true, but I don’t think it’s mainly due to getting money from the government. This was a centralized economy during Soviet times, and people became habituated as job takers. Big industry gave them jobs, and they simply showed-up for work. Now, big industry for bottom-end workers is gone, and there’s nothing to replace it. The high-tax economy thwarts entrepreneurism. So much for the carrot.
.
.
“ They have no need to travel and get around fine on the bus. â€Â
I hope you’re not blaming public transit
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Thu, Mar 1st, 2007 @ 4:27 pm
“Absolutely true for many. I only wish we had such a wealthy economy that would enable that type of consumption.”
This is the capitalist mantra of today. “Buy more, consume more, spend more!” “Be a good consumer.” Isn’t that exactly the thing that has gotten us into so much trouble so far? I mean, how could the economy grow indefinitely? And why should it? Isn’t that a bit ludicrous? The natural resources on this planet are limited after all.
It also sounds eerily Orwellian.
Comment by Ã…boy — Thu, Mar 1st, 2007 @ 5:26 pm
Ã…boy: “The natural resources on this planet are limited after all.”
Exactly. I don’t like overconsumption either. If I had the excess discretionary income of Americans, I’d much rather invest it.
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Thu, Mar 1st, 2007 @ 6:45 pm
Oh, about that good life the American poor are living - a very interesting news story by the Washington Post:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/27/AR2007022702116.html
Comment by mjr — Thu, Mar 1st, 2007 @ 6:52 pm
Ã…boy:
It [rampant consumerism] also sounds eerily Orwellian.
Not quite, IMHO. I’m rather thinking of Huxley. The more stiches, the less riches and all that. All in all, our society has long been going towards that direction.
Kristian:
Exactly. I don’t like overconsumption either. If I had the excess discretionary income of Americans, I’d much rather invest it.
Without a large population in the throes of a consuming frenzy, you might not get such a great return for your investments.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Thu, Mar 1st, 2007 @ 6:54 pm
“I’m rather thinking of Huxley.”
You’re right of course. Brave New World it is, and not so much 1984.
Comment by Ã…boy — Thu, Mar 1st, 2007 @ 7:18 pm
“Without a large population in the throes of a consuming frenzy, you might not get such a great return for your investments.”
Yes, it seems crazy when you think about it that way
In reality though, I’m not convinced that a “frenzy” is needed. A steady rate that is environmentally sound should suffice, IMO.
There’s also the consumption of services which don’t unnecessarily harm the environment. Here in Finland, the service sector is lacking due to things the OECD mentions: high income taxes, inflexible unions, misplaced social benefits…..
This is the only country I know, where kiosks actually close entirely for long periods of time. People everywhere, yet the kiosks are closed?
Fixing these types of things can really boost an economy. It doesn’t just concern kiosks.
http://www.oecd.org/document/36/0,2340,en_33873108_33873360_36552804_1_1_1_1,00.html
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Thu, Mar 1st, 2007 @ 7:21 pm
“I don’t see America as a public transit land. Some cities have gotten better, but for the most part you still need a car in the US. That’s very expensive for a poor person. If it breaks-down, or if driving privileges are lost, then the job is lost too. Very stressful.”
Sorry, but I see little difference between rural services in the US and Finland. OK, there might be a bus going by in an hour in Finland, but you really can’t depend on it for going food shopping etc. So instead the Finn walks or takes a bike. The American takes his car. You need a car to live outside Finnish Cities. You do not need a car if you live in most US Cities. But if you have one, you might have an easier time finding a parking spot than if you live in downtown Helsinki. In that case, you can’t own a car!
Comment by Fred Fry — Thu, Mar 1st, 2007 @ 7:42 pm
MJR,
That Washingotn Post story you link to fails to mention that that poor familiy would not have such huge tooth problems if the parents bothered to teach their children to brush. Last time I check, toothbrushes were cheap.
Really, what is a 10 year old doing with 6 rotten teeth?
Comment by Fred Fry — Thu, Mar 1st, 2007 @ 7:47 pm
“that poor familiy would not have such huge tooth problems if the parents bothered to teach their children to brush”
Yet again a shining textbook example of laying the blame for unfortunate circumstances on the victim.
Brushing your teeth can only take you so far, really. If you don’t have access to a health professional you’re bound to run into problems. And how on earth do you happen to know about the health education in this particular family? Do you know them personally?
Comment by Ã…boy — Thu, Mar 1st, 2007 @ 8:28 pm
My little brother used to have the worst teeth in childhood and it had nothing to do with not brushing. Our mother is a nurse and she has always taught us the importance of taking care of ourselves. My brother didn’t have that much trouble though because his teeth were always well cared for, practically for free, by public health care.
Peoples tooth bone and saliva are different (not to mention the personal bacteria each one of us have) and some people just are bound to run into more trouble than others.
Comment by Ã…boy — Thu, Mar 1st, 2007 @ 8:38 pm
At least they get some bread in Finland, how about in the US? They get shot.
Comment by dudette — Thu, Mar 1st, 2007 @ 8:43 pm
how about the us?
Well in the US they go to Walmart with the extra $10 000 they earn over the average EU peasant.
Its all about high taxes, you keep them there, and you will always have bread lines.
Lower the taxes, and you get employment, less than 5%, and its who cares about the government anymore, we can fend for ourselves.
Comment by winter — Thu, Mar 1st, 2007 @ 10:22 pm
And in the US it’s easy to die of treatable diseases like tooth decay as you can’t afford decent medical treatment. Yay. Sure hope that Walmart line is worth it.
Comment by Ã…boy — Thu, Mar 1st, 2007 @ 10:49 pm
winter:”its all about high taxes, you keep them there, and you will always have bread lines. Lower the taxes, and you get employment, less than 5%, and its who cares about the government anymore, we can fend for ourselves. ”
You might think two steps ahead once in a while… Your government total debt is around 8700 BILLION dollars and rising fast. That’s about 83 000 dollars per US household. That does not even include future liabilities which are about 50 000 BILLION dollars. That’s about 500 000 dollars per household.
Your government, states, cities are all spending and borrowing like drunken sailors while keeping taxes low. For example, you have 12 carrier strike groups, each of which consists about 10 major ships plus countles number of smaller ones. Do you really think US is able to continue this kind of fiscal madness for long?
“in Fiscal Year 2006, the U. S. Government spent $406 Billion of your money on interest payments* to the holders of the National Debt. Compare that to NASA at $15 Billion, Education at $61 Billion, and Department of Transportation at $56 Billion”
USA is basically insolvent. Don’t believe me, your own head accountant says so:
“There is simply no way for our national bills to be paid under current levels of taxation and promised benefits. Our federal deficits alone now total more than 400% of GDP. That is the conclusion of a recent Treasury/OMB report entitled FINANCIAL REPORT OF THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT.
So enjoy your low taxes for now…
Comment by tim73 — Thu, Mar 1st, 2007 @ 11:53 pm
In Finland you might have to wait up to one year to get a dentist appointment. And they won’t even clean your teeth. You people are so deluded… And what about the unlicensed doctor that got a baby killed? That would never happen in any civilized country other than Finland. Finnish health care is a HUGE joke.
Comment by truth — Fri, Mar 2nd, 2007 @ 12:19 am
No, I’ll take it back… That would never happen in any civilized country. Period.
Comment by truth — Fri, Mar 2nd, 2007 @ 12:21 am
Fred: “Sorry, but I see little difference between rural services in the US and Finland.”
Finland isn’t a great example regarding public transit. At least not compared to other European countries. Finland’s a low-GDP land, so we can’t do much better for now :-/
Fred: “…would not have such huge tooth problems if the parents bothered to teach their children to brush.”
I was thinking in similar terms. But, I wondered how long the mother waited before looking for help. Did she wait until the last minute?
I know it sounds cynical, but I lived along the perimeter of one of those ghettos for a short time. All types of parenting styles there.
Nevertheless, the american States need to refine their programs. I don’t think money is the problem; they simply haven’t agreed politically on how to organize it.
It all relates to the immigrant epic, I suppose. Nobody wants to feel like they are paying for someone else. Self-sufficiency is the american mantra.
Unfortunately, due to historically traceable reasons (e.g. slavery, discrimination), a certain part of the population has no history of economic success. That’s why the ghettos evolved. If you want to see where I lived for a short time, go to….
40°00′00″ X 75°09′09″
It’s a real shocker, even from a few hundred meters. Nearly 400 people murdered in Philadelphia last year. Most of them in that sprawling ghetto. If you scroll far enough, you can spot the perimeter by the condition of the rooftops. Again, keep that historical context in mind.
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Fri, Mar 2nd, 2007 @ 1:14 am
“”scan over the US and then over Europeâ€â€even Russia. You’ll see that the US was not planned effectively from the beginning.”"
Russia? Mister you are Phull of shit !
Comment by rick — Fri, Mar 2nd, 2007 @ 1:24 am
Russia? Mister you are Phull of shit !
Heh, maybe what you don’t realize is that Russia doesn’t have the housing sprawl of America. It follows a cluster model like western Europe, so any future planning is actually workable. Conversely, America is forever stuck with traffic jams—unless flying cars are invented.
Also, although I won’t claim that Russia is any shining example of quality housing, at least most multi-unit dwellings are made from concrete and steel. Probably most single homes too. Conversely, America is a giant fire hazard. Not to mention being susceptible to wind gusts….
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Fri, Mar 2nd, 2007 @ 2:18 am
Another thing about American homes…. You can break-into one with simple hand tools.
Like this:
1). Hammer claw to unclip the exterior plastic veneer;
2). Slightly larger hammer claw to break through the 2cm plywood wall;
3). Pull-out insulation; and
4).Use foot to kick through drywall.
My guess is that it wouldn’t be so easy with a Russian home. Of course, going through a window would be more expedient in either case
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Fri, Mar 2nd, 2007 @ 2:30 am
“Oh, about that good life the American poor are living - a very interesting news story by the Washington Post:â€Â
Don’t blame the System…blame the parent(s)! Medicaid would have covered the child regardless of the lapse in their insurance.
Comment by Persnickety — Fri, Mar 2nd, 2007 @ 2:54 am
Tim73
Get your facts correct. “There is simply no way for our national bills to be paid under current levels of taxation and promised benefits. ”
Thats all the future demands on the tax system. Your welfare state has the same problem.
The US government will just cut the programs, problem solved. Its really that simple. You can’t cut, you are already at bare bones, so watch out.
Comment by winter — Fri, Mar 2nd, 2007 @ 3:34 am
“Brushing your teeth can only take you so far, really.”
- Brushing your teeth does not result in six “rotten” teeth. As Kristian points out the health problems started long before those teeth turned rotten and spread a deadly infection. That child did not go to a dentist because mom could not get FREE service. Even with health care coverage you have to pay something. When I was using a Washington, DC pediatricians office, they serviced a number of illegal aliens. While I had a $15 copay, they had no insurance and paid nothing. When I asked why I was told that if they charged a copay, the parents would not bring their child in.
She could have taken the kid to a dentist and then paid off the invoice. Why didn’t she do that? What kind of assets does she have? Where were her priorities? No I do not know her, but I too lived in an inner city (Washington, DC, Jersey City, and Queens) and I can say that lack of parenting is to blame for many problems.
Comment by Fred Fry — Fri, Mar 2nd, 2007 @ 4:31 am
Fred Reed has written yet another brilliant essay. This time about the American psyche. Read it.
http://www.fredoneverything.net/National%20Character.shtml
Comment by Fat Bastard — Fri, Mar 2nd, 2007 @ 7:42 am
winter: “The US government will just cut the programs, problem solved. Its really that simple. You can’t cut, you are already at bare bones, so watch out.”
Actually, no. America Society of Civil Engineers gave grade D in their infrastructure report card of 2005 and the total investment needed is 1600 BILLION dollars for the next five years. That is only one of the major financial problems.
Heavily indebted country cannot make those necessary infrastructure repairments. Your infrastructure is also very vulnerable to oil price shocks, public transport is a joke for the most part of the US and suburban life is way too car dependent.
Source:
http://www.asce.org/reportcard/2005/index.cfm
Comment by tim73 — Fri, Mar 2nd, 2007 @ 9:14 am
#56:
“Nobody wants to feel like they are paying for someone else. Self-sufficiency is the american mantra.”
Can this be true? I mean they’re pretending to be Christians, aren’t they? Now what do the tenets of Christianity say again.. Oh yes. Love your brother as yourself. Give your other shirt to the one that has none. Overall, lead a humble life, share from your fortune to those that are less fortunate, so on and so forth. Indeed, one could even argue that Christianity is based on social welfare thinking. Or vice versa.
I’m not a believer myself but it seems that Americans are possibly the greatest hypocrites on the planet. “In God We Trust” written on the money and all. I bet that Jesus would burn those kinds of bills on a big pyre. Think how he got angry with those moneychangers in that temple.
Comment by Ã…boy — Fri, Mar 2nd, 2007 @ 11:07 am
Ã…boy,
- “Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.”
There is no shortage of people and programs offering training both in the US and Finland. Many people who run into a stretch of bad luck are assisted greatly by these groups. Then you have the perpetual poor. The teachers are there but the students are unwilling.
There are no shortage of people willing to help. The ‘needy’ are not helped as much as possible as they are more interested in handout instead of putting in the work to become self-sufficient again. Some ass in a previous posting was pointing out that some people need help because they are lazy. It does not work that way. If you look at finland’s own documents about aid, it clearly states that you are expected to work.
Americans hypicates? Maybe but no more than the rest of the free world, especially the EU. All that money that was pledged for the tsunami, guess who ponied up and who did not. The you have the fake condom crisis in Africa. The US is giving billions to fight AIDS in Africa, yet the world compalins that the money is not being used to buy condoms to give to the Africans. Here is a suggestion, maybe the rest of the world can buy condoms for Africans too lazy to buy them on their own. (Which makes me wonder, if they are too lazy to buy a condom, how are you going to get them to put one on?)
Comment by Fred Fry — Fri, Mar 2nd, 2007 @ 3:10 pm
“America Society of Civil Engineers gave grade D in their infrastructure report card of 2005 ”
No kidding
They make money on repairs, and just what grade would they give?
No way they are biased? Or are they?
Comment by winter — Fri, Mar 2nd, 2007 @ 3:16 pm
“The you have the fake condom crisis in Africa.”
Blame the pope. He’s the massmurdere who says that using a condom is a sin. Then the Africans, instead of using condoms, go and rape their children once they’re infected with the virus. You see, they believe that one can be cured through having sex with a virgin.
No wonder there are areas in Africa where half of the population under 20 years have HIV. As I said: blame the pope.
Comment by Ã…boy — Fri, Mar 2nd, 2007 @ 3:26 pm
Ã…boy: “You see, they believe that one can be cured through having sex with a virgin.”
Are you saying it’s not possible?
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Fri, Mar 2nd, 2007 @ 5:13 pm
“Blame the pope. He’s the massmurdere who says that using a condom is a sin. Then the Africans, instead of using condoms, go and rape their children once they’re infected with the virus. You see, they believe that one can be cured through having sex with a virgin.”
- If that is the case, why are the ‘enlightened Europeans’ demanding to shower Africa with condoms if they know they won’t use them.
- And why is it that Europe is dismission their religious culture? Doesn’t that go against their grain?
Comment by Fred Fry — Fri, Mar 2nd, 2007 @ 5:41 pm
“Some ass in a previous posting was pointing out that some people need help because they are lazy. It does not work that way. If you look at finland’s own documents about aid, it clearly states that you are expected to work.â€Â
Well, I think Finland’s stance on “Aid†is a bunch of bull!!! I thought the Welfare system in the States was abused, until I moved here. Over half of this country is on some kind of government aid (even people in their teens, twenties, and thirties with no kids), while the other half of the people in this country who work for a living are taxed up the ass to support them.
Comment by Persnickety — Fri, Mar 2nd, 2007 @ 6:06 pm
Persnickety, do you have any figures to suggest the welfare system is abused more here than in America? You know the fact that more people receive government aid does not directly tell about poorer morals or more abuse but rather only shows that we have a different system.
You have to remember that most of those people who receive aid “even in their teens, twenties and thirties” will in the near future become the people who pay the taxes to finance the aid for the next generation. In the context of a social democratic system this is a normal way of life: the people who receive aid and pay for it are not so clearly segregated as in market liberalist systems. Of course from a right wing ideological stance it will seem like widespread abuse; but to measure the real amount of wrongdoing in the system should be based on facts, not vague generalisations.
Comment by Drakon — Fri, Mar 2nd, 2007 @ 7:32 pm