So many candidates, and just one vote
In the states, you’re very lucky if you have two candidates to choose from. Most districts are heavily Democrat or Republican, so your realistic choice is basically one. Here in the Uusimaa region of Finland, there’s 340 to choose from!! Seriously, how do you all choose one candidate from 340? That’s quite overwhelming, but it sure beats the hell out of the U.S.’s electoral system! …Choice is good. Except when it comes to socialized healthcare…then only one choice is best.
When I did Helsingin Sanomat’s election machine, a female Centre Party member was my #1 choice - I guess I should vote for her. But, I’m not a big fan of the agrarian Centre Party, and if she loses, my vote goes to help some unknown Centre Party member - That’s good if you like the party, but if you only like the individual, that’s a problem.
There’s four Liberals running in Uusimaa, three of them were in my Top 5 from the election machine. I guess I should vote Liberal. But ooops, I’m not a Finnish citizen, I can’t vote. Hey, here’s an idea (since I always say that Finns are more interested in American politics than Americans), I’ll trade my 2008 U.S. Presidential vote in exchange for a vote in the upcoming Finnish elections! Great idea! Who’s game? Oh wait, there’s a black Homeland Security helicopter flying over house now as I write this, brb…
I have always thought that it’s a good system in that the party machines have very little control over who will get elected from the list. In Sweden it used to be case that you can only vote for the list and the party determines the order of the individual candidates. I guess it is largely still so. Of course with our promiscuous, most libertarian minded party system where the Conservatives and the Left Alliance can be in the same government, these electoral niceties are largely wasted. You simply don’t know what government coalition you are voting for. Therefore the parliamentary election campaigns are most of the time mystifying shadow boxing where parties try to keep as many possibilities open as they humanly can. In that sense I would not mind even the Swedish system where you at least have two clear alternative blocs…
Comment by mjr — Mon, Feb 26th, 2007 @ 10:32 pm
It really sucks that those xenophobic Finns won’t let you vote in their parliamentary elections. I mean you’ve lived there for four years, right?
Comment by giustino — Mon, Feb 26th, 2007 @ 10:53 pm
Phil could apply for a citizenship if he’d bother to learn the language. He pays his taxes and has the cultural understanding already.
Comment by Jaakko — Mon, Feb 26th, 2007 @ 10:54 pm
Ah, like the California system where Arnold won? It would be good to shake up a system with an open campaign, but do you all realy want your entertainment systems to take over your government?
Comment by winter — Mon, Feb 26th, 2007 @ 11:00 pm
“but do you all realy want your entertainment systems to take over your government?”
After having the PM’s owen potatoes all over the place and SDP parliamentary gruppenführer doing “Reelin’ n’ Rocking (fiilaten ja höyläten) in national TV, I’m more worried about the government taking over the entertainment systems.
Comment by Antti (the redneck one) — Mon, Feb 26th, 2007 @ 11:13 pm
Phil could apply for a citizenship if he’d bother to learn the language.
I’m learning, I’m learning. I’ll have my citizenship on day!
Comment by Phil — Mon, Feb 26th, 2007 @ 11:26 pm
It’s interesting, the different voting machines throw up fairly different results. As to your present poll, I suppose the least worst option is Centre + SDP (+SFP/RKP).
For me one of the principal election issues is Sibbo/Sipoo and its threat from Helsinki to have some of its territory annexed, so I will certainly be voting for the Swedish peoples’ party as it is the only party with a crystal clear position against this.
I am however not completely satisfied with Sfp. I don’t see that their constant place in government of late has helped maintain the position of the Swedish-speaking community as well as it should have. Sfp should have been far more aggresive during for instance when the second domestic language was removed from being a compulsory student exam subject. Now we see as predicted, the number of students in the Finnish speaking schools that chose to drop Swedish has reached a significant level; if the trend continues it will be unacceptable.
I suspect that the results of the election will be a continuation of SDP and Centre. It will be interesting to see if any other smaller parties join which I suppose depends on how much the other 2 need them (and therefore how well Kokoomus do).
Comment by JG — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 12:09 am
JG: “Sfp should have been far more aggresive during for instance when the second domestic language was removed from being a compulsory student exam subject.”
So to “maintain the position of the Swedish-speaking community” you have to force everyone else to learn your language? Even those who don’t want to?
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 12:42 am
If only there was a libertarian party in Finland. Then, for once, I could actually vote! (Sigh)
Comment by Liber Al — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 1:00 am
I’m learning, I’m learning. I’ll have my citizenship on day!
Great
No need to hurry, you don’t want to go to army, do you?
Comment by Passer-by — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 1:04 am
Having hundreds of candidates isn’t a big problem, because you can eliminate the vast majority of them based on their party affiliation. Because of how the election system works and because of the level of party discipline in the Parliament, voters should always choose a party first and only then look for the best individual candidate among that favourite party’s hopefuls.
This is an area where many election machines go wrong, I think. They rank individual candidates based on how close the candidates’ answers are to yours, as if that was nearly as important as how closely their parties’ positions match yours. Phil getting a Centre candidate as his top choice is a case in point.
Comment by a lamb with no guiding light — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 1:09 am
Liber Al, what’s wrong with the Liberals?
Comment by a lamb with no guiding light — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 1:20 am
An interesting note about the Swedish language in Finland…. As most know, it was required to learn Swedish before other languages like English. But who has time to learn yet a second foreign language?
Case in point, before 1990’s it was difficult to even find an English speaker here in Finland. And the Finnish Commies sure liked it that way. After all, if you don’t understand a language, then how can you be influenced by it?
The East Block nations all had similar ploys. The first foreign language was always Russian; then came the others. English wasn’t even available until sometime during the 1980’s.
Anyway, I attribute our current low personal net-worth and overpriced domestic economy to language policies of that era. A little more balance of information would have helped Finland a great deal.
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 1:23 am
So to “maintain the position of the Swedish-speaking community†you have to force everyone else to learn your language? Even those who don’t want to?
It’s an official language of our country and there needs to be sufficient number of people need to be able to speak Finnish and Swedish in order to ensure that in the future we are able to maintain an effectively functioning bilingual system in for instance the law, police, administration etc. Forcing is a loaded word. We force children to learn many things in school at various stages if you want to measure it by that term. I don’t see it that way, it is just that we should provide an educational curriculum that best suits the needs of the nation. If it gets to a stage where the majority of students are not able to speak both languages, it will be impossible to assure a good service level in both national languages which leads to less better (or worse, inadequate) service provision.
Comment by JG — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 1:27 am
“Forcing is a loaded word.”
Percentage of population:
Finn-Swedes……..6%
Finn-Finns……..93%
Others and Phil….1%
I’d say ‘forcing’ is a very appropriate word
But I will agree that learning some basics is a good idea for children—at least enough to read the nice signs. And I do like having dual-language signs
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 1:51 am
So vote for Al Gore:
“GORE MANSION USES 20X AVERAGE HOUSEHOLD; CONSUMPTION INCREASE AFTER ‘TRUTH’
Gore’s mansion, [20-room, eight-bathroom] located in the posh Belle Meade area of Nashville, consumes more electricity every month than the average American household uses in an entire year, according to the Nashville Electric Service (NES).
In his documentary, the former Vice President calls on Americans to conserve energy by reducing electricity consumption at home.”
Now will you all let me run my 5 cars, 2 boats and 3 chainsaws with out interuption.
Comment by winter — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 2:44 am
“Now will you all let me run my 5 cars, 2 boats and 3 chainsaws with out interuption.”
By all means, as long as you self-amputate both arms with the bluntest of the three chainsaws.
Comment by kylmä totuus — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 3:00 am
Imagine that. The Liberal left wants every one but them, to conserve.
Some one give Al an award.
Comment by winter — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 3:36 am
I understand that in the US you only get one congressman per congressional district. In Finland each area(vaalipiiri = electoral district?) gets to vote more than one person in to the Eduskunta. That makes a big difference. I prefer our system. It would be depressing to narrowly lose to the one who gets the most votes in a certain area and not get any representation.
Comment by Fägäri — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 3:46 am
I think I confused the verbs elect and vote there
Comment by Fägäri — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 3:54 am
I’m not even sure if confuse is the right word for the sentencxe above
Comment by Fägäri — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 3:56 am
Fägäri, you got #19 right. A person can get voted into- or voted out of office. Or he can get elected to office. I don’t think he can get elected out though. #20 is fine too
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 4:10 am
Phil,
While you can’t vote in the national elections, you can vote in the local elections. For what it’s worth;)
340 Candidates? Not really. Subtract:
34 - Vasemmistoliitto (Half-Communists)
32 - SKP (Communists)
11 - KTP (Communists)
6 - STP (Traditional Communists - Rejects from KTP)
83 different flavors of Communists. That leaves 257.
What the hell. 1 in four candidates are hard leftists.
Sad thing, a surprising amount will get elected.
Comment by Fred Fry — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 5:10 am
Great
No need to hurry, you don’t want to go to army, do you?
Hell no! I believe if I get my citizenship after age 34, I don’t have to goto army. So I’m 27 now, I got plenty of time.
Comment by Phil — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 8:24 am
So to “maintain the position of the Swedish-speaking community†you have to force everyone else to learn your language? Even those who don’t want to?
Yeah, exactly. Native Finnish speakers often really seem to *loathe* Swedish because they were *forced* to learn it. That can’t be good for Finnish-speaker/Swedish-speaker relations.
Comment by Phil — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 8:28 am
This is an area where many election machines go wrong, I think. They rank individual candidates based on how close the candidates’ answers are to yours, as if that was nearly as important as how closely their parties’ positions match yours. Phil getting a Centre candidate as his top choice is a case in point.
The parties here are so similar in ideology, it’s tough to be loyal to just one.
Comment by Phil — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 8:33 am
32 - SKP (Communists)
11 - KTP (Communists)
6 - STP (Traditional Communists - Rejects from KTP)
I always love how the communists which represent 0.1% of the population can never agree on anything and always split up into their own factions. The U.S. has multiple competing tiny socialist and communist parties as wel;.
So what are the ideological differences between Finland’s three commie parties?
Comment by Phil — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 9:05 am
I always love how the communists which represent 0.1% of the population can never agree on anything and always split up into their own factions.
It is kind of typical of political extremists, particularly those who are continually struggling to fit reality into the Grand Theory. Visit some libertarian discussion forums some day.
So what are the ideological differences between Finland’s three commie parties?
The biggest and most traditional one is the relationship to the Soviet Union, which more recently (since the 1960s) divided the commies to Taistoite/non-Taistoite factions which is probably reflected in these modern schisms as well. The old left of Finland has mostly been wary of the neighbour, ever since Finnish emigrants got little holes in the back of their necks en masse in the workers’ paradise.
Otherwise it’s just getting to be the president of the club, no matter how small it is. Jesus freaks, particularly Pentecostals, are very similar in that fashion.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 9:23 am
Visit some libertarian discussion forums some day.
Well there’s still just one Libertarian Party.
Comment by Phil — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 9:28 am
“So what are ideological differences between Finland’s three commie parties?”
I guess the Left Alliance pretty much contains the non-taistoite faction of the original SKP.
On differences, it’s impossible to tell. It would require giving them each an absolute power for 20 years and compare the results. They all seem to have nice things put in their programs, but so was in the constitution of Soviet Union. If they follow the footsteps of Lenin, they will surely promise peace, love, rock n’ roll and flowers everywhere for the useful idiots.
As Franklin put it, those guys are not interested, whether it works in practice, but does it work in theory.
Comment by Antti (the redneck one) — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 9:51 am
‘before the 1990’s it was difficult to even find an English speaker here in Finland’ (Kristian, post 13)
Yes, I remember the 1980’s, that was when we all ate bark bread every winter, the black death killed half the population and mammoths trampled the other half. We only had time to invent spoken language after 1989, after the invention of fire.
@JG,
Service provision is fine, but an argument you could try on ambitious little pr*cks is that there’s nothing in the rules that says they have to study in Finnish, the Swedish language quota is open to all who know the language. Learn Swedish and you’ll have a much easier time getting into law school, e.g.
@25,
Lazy-ass kids hate having to learn anything. The school system is supposed to force people to learn a bit of everything so that they do not disqualify themselves by their own stupid choices. Later, when they’ve picked careers, they can forget all the stuff they never need.
Comment by prince of dorkness — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 10:00 am
@27, 28
There are several would-be führers with their own ‘parties’ on the Finnish far right, too, but they’re more obviously just nuts and incapable of tolerating anyone smarter or less crazy than themselves.
Comment by prince of dorkness — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 10:10 am
I can understand forced geography, forced mathematics, forced biology and even forced English (hey it’s the world language) etc. but I really, really can’t understand forced Swedish. You can’t say “oh but kids are forced to learn a bunch of things”. Sure they are, the things that really are important for them to learn, that is.
Swedish is not as essential to our civilization and wellbeing as some would like us to believe. In the world we live in even forced Russian makes more sense. I see in this civilization-argument the remnants of the ideology that Finnish is suited only for peasants and commoners while Swedish is the true language of civilized people and thought.
Comment by Ã…boy — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 10:25 am
I’ll trade my 2008 U.S. Presidential vote…
Don’t do that. Trading your vote is a punishable felony in Finland, and likely in the U.S. too.
Re. the obligatory Swedish in schools, it’s maybe reason to point out that a overwhelmingly Finnish-speaking majority in the Parliament voted for it in the 1960s. Finnish also became obligarory in Swedish-speaking schools then.
Comment by N. Siinistö — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 10:29 am
Ã…boy -
Having a little fit of alemmuuskompleksit, have we?
Comment by N. Siinistö — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 10:33 am
I think it’s unfortunate that finns have to learn not one but two languages which have little to no use outside of Finland in today’s globalizing world. The problem is that you can’t debate the merits of “forced” swedish as you’re usually instantly labeled a bigoted racist and a swedish-hater.
Comment by mh — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 10:45 am
Having a little fit of alemmuuskompleksit, have we?
Nope. More like järjenvastaisesta käytännöstä aiheutuva turhautumiskompleksi.
The problem is that you can’t debate the merits of “forced†swedish as you’re usually instantly labeled a bigoted racist and a swedish-hater.
Yup. Plus a person with inferiority complex.
Comment by Ã…boy — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 10:48 am
As Stan Saanila put it: It’s underligt that Finns don’t want to study Swedish; it’s as if they’d be saying that if you learn this or that language there isn’t room for other languages in your head.
Anybody saying something like that is a moron - or in denial. The latter is probably true because otherwise Stan is close to a libertarian: “let people choose freely … as long as they don’t choose not to study Swedish”.
Well, belonging to a minority is a good thing because at the end it prevents one from becoming a libertarian. It’s no wonder that libertarianism is a white male American ideology.
Comment by tomia — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 11:13 am
There are still a few former Taistoites (meaning about the same as Stalinist in English) in the parliament, all members of the Left Alliance:
Jaakko Laakso is the vice chairman of the official parliamentary defense committee (puolustusvaliokunta). Heh.
Pentti Tiusanen is a former Stasi employee, more or less, and he is the chairman of the environmental committee (ympäristövaliokunta).
Esko Tennilä Tennilä is a member of the committee of foreign affairs and “future” (tulevaisuusvaliokunta). Back in the seventies he told his comrades that it was important for them to become officers so that when the revolution came they’d be prepared to lead the masses.
Furthermore we’ve got a statue of a Russian emperor in one of the most central parts of Helsinki, and one of Lenin in Turku among other places. Fortunately Stalin, or the “Red-Army liberator” as in Tallinn, never got a statue, if they had gotten they would probably still be standing.
McCarthyism isn’t the Finnish way, I suppose.
Comment by tomia — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 11:21 am
I must say that I find Jaakko Laakso a particularly nasty piece of work. In many ways the Left Alliance is quite a sensible party these days but I could never consider voting for them as long as they have these people (that seem to regret nothing) as an influential group within the party.
Comment by mjr — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 11:38 am
As Stan Saanila put it: It’s underligt that Finns don’t want to study Swedish; it’s as if they’d be saying that if you learn this or that language there isn’t room for other languages in your head.
The obvious problem with this argument is that you can’t choose to study english and, say, german, in peruskoulu, but you have to take english and swedish. There isn’t room for other languages in the study schedule.
Comment by mh — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 11:41 am
Kristian: But who has time to learn yet a second foreign language?
Let me see… English, German and now I’m reading Russian as a little extra to my other studies - that’s 3 foreign languages - hell, if a person as lazy as I am can find time and energy to learn more foreign languages than just one, then everyone should be able to do it. It’s just all about the attitude.
I think that knowing Swedish is a really important thing thinking of that Sweden is our second biggest trading partner.
Comment by Mikael — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 12:02 pm
Phil, the upper age limit for conscription is 30, not 35.
Asevelvollisuuslaki:
http://www.finlex.fi/fi/laki/ajantasa/1950/19500452
10 luku, 45§.
Comment by maissi — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 12:29 pm
I think that knowing Swedish is a really important thing thinking of that Sweden is our second biggest trading partner.
Although I’m pretty fluent in Swedish I always deal in English with the Swedes. Why? Well, I don’t want to give them the upper hand that speaking in your mother tongue gives.
The sad fact is that I’m fluent in Swedish instead of, say, Russian .. or Chinese, something I really could use, I imagine …
I’m a result of the “pre-globalized” Finland, but amazingly enough, my kids still have to waste their time studying Swedish.
Not that studying Swedish would be a total waste of time. Being able to read Swedish has been a joy in many occasions. It’s just not worth while for most people. Reading, say, Russian, German, or Spanish texts would be more fun and more important, I guess.
Comment by tomia — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 12:32 pm
They, the army that is, wouldn’t want to touch Phil even with a long stick. Saying: “I don’t want to defend this country”, is enough nowadays.
Comment by tomia — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 1:02 pm
I must say that I find Jaakko Laakso a particularly nasty piece of work.
I’ll tell you who’s scary, this Olavi Mäenpää guy: http://maenpaa-olavi-abo.blogspot.com/
Comment by Phil — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 1:18 pm
There are no good options. Vote for small parties/independent candidates.
Comment by Fudge — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 1:20 pm
tomia: “It’s no wonder that libertarianism is a white male American ideology.”
Interestingly, so is formal democracy…..if we consider democracy to be an ideology……and if we consider Greeks to be white
Actually all european political directions of today, have white-man origins. That’s not to say that parallel movements didn’t happen in other places on the globe; maybe ones we don’t know about yet?
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 1:27 pm
Mikael: “….that’s 3 foreign languages - hell, if a person as lazy as I am can find time and energy to learn more foreign languages than just one, then everyone should be able to do it…. ”
Yes, but there’s the economic concept of Opportunity Cost; the cost in terms of foregone alternatives. Studying a language precludes you from studying something else. Consider the law of mental physics: Two thoughts can’t occupy the same space
For school children, a survey of languages is probably best to get the fullest language picture possible, theoretically speaking. That means Finnish (or Swedish) plus equal amounts of the others.
And yes, Sweden is a big trading partner, but Sweden’s population is only slightly larger than Finland’s. And Sweden’s high-tax economy doesn’t exactly produce the consumer market we’re after in the future.
Besides, Swedes (in Sweden) have a history of being douchebags. Hid behind our backs during the war. Didn’t help us much afterwards—especially not helpful in terms of ideology. Just look at Finland’s wealth picture, in relation to others in the EU.
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 1:31 pm
Siinistö: “Re. the obligatory Swedish in schools, [] overwhelmingly Finnish-speaking majority in the Parliament voted for it in the 1960s.”
Could this be why?
“Although during the late 1950s and early 1960s the USSR exercised some influence over internal Finnish politics (forcing, for example, the withdrawal of a candidate for president in 1962)”
http://www.answers.com/topic/finland
So, I guess voting for Russian as a required language would have been too obvious a ploy to keep American ideology out.
Plus, internally speaking, we were _against_ Russia and the Soviets, right
“Finnish also became obligarory in Swedish-speaking schools then.”
Ah yes, we are so egalitarian….or at least we try to make it appear that way :-/
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 1:34 pm
46: Hmm, quite remarkable indeed, Phil - can he be serious? Turku is such a colourful place. But Jaakko Laakso is no lunatic fringe character: he’s a very influential member of his party and the important national defence committee of the parliament. I don’t know how he does it, but he’s supposed to be razor sharp and socially talented (and utterly without principles - unless he is still getting even about 1918). Apparently, based on reviews of Siimes’ book, he has run effortless circles around the party leadership for years.
Comment by mjr — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 1:42 pm
“…the upper age limit for conscription is 30, not 35.”
Heh, I guess he wants to play it safe to not wake up one morning at Las Vekaras for missing the “small print”.
Personally, I could recommend conscription near 30’s. One comes back 10 years younger and quite possibly, having reversed mistakes such as first marriages.
Comment by Antti (the redneck one) — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 1:47 pm
I see in this civilization-argument the remnants of the ideology that Finnish is suited only for peasants and commoners while Swedish is the true language of civilized people and thought.
That’s a very strange attitude in my opinion, and smacks of some fear in being inferior. Don’t forget, whenever we go to e.g. a shop owned by a Finnish-speaker (who is unwilling to speak Swedish) or even if there is a conversation involving 1 Finnish speaker and 5 Swedish speakers, it is always the Swedish speakers who will, by unwritten rule, switch to Finnish. Imagine the outcry of a Finnish speaker if he he/she went to see a doctor in a town like Ekenäs and they could not get service in Finnish. This is increasingly a problem faced by Swedish speakers.
Swedish is important. Most vitally so that the Finland-Swedes can receive services in their own language. Already problems are appearing, for instance in the new 112 telephone centres in the south (when you are in a panic because your wife is having a heart attack, you need to be able to speak your mother tongue). It is also important to anchor Finland into Scandinavia. Don’t forget that with Swedish, you get to understand Norwegian and (with a bit more of a struggle) Danish. These are important political and economic partners.
The argument that Swedish obstructs foreign language learning is also odd. Swedish is a Germanic language, just as English, so they should be complimentary to each other.
That said, I think the way Swedish has been taught in the Finnish language schools has been poor at times, with bad text books (and often bad teachers). This does need to be changed, because if it stays like that, I can understand why the students would hate Swedish lessons. I think that Stefan Wallin is right when he says that Swedish lessons should start earlier in school life.
Comment by JG — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 1:54 pm
Ah, yes, we are so egalitarian…or at least we try to make it appear that way :-/
Huh? Do you mean Swedish-speaking children should NOT learn Finnish?
Comment by N. Siinistö — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 2:43 pm
One comes back 10 years younger and quite possibly, having reversed mistakes such as first marriages.
Hehe. Why, cause you wind up cheating on your wife with your army bunkmate?
Comment by Phil — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 2:45 pm
JG: “Don’t forget that with Swedish, you get to understand Norwegian and (with a bit more of a struggle) Danish. These are important political and economic partners.”
JG, these are important, but NOT overwhelmingly so. Besides, we speak english with them anyway. No sense in giving-up linguistic advantage by switching to someone else’s mother tongue. Mastery of english (or whatever the de facto world language de jour) is key. Or we can have people who specialize in those regions; of course, they’d fully learn to speak Swedish/Norwegian/Danish as part of their job requirements.
I see your point about health and government services. For those who choose careers in that direction, perhaps Swedish should be required.
But, for someone who studies for a career in international trade with Russia or Germany, it should NOT be required. Those two are much more important to Finland’s future than the Scandinavians, so specialists shouldn’t waste time muddling around with Swedish.
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 2:52 pm
“Huh? Do you mean Swedish-speaking children should NOT learn Finnish?”
I mean it was a cover-up
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 2:54 pm
Thanks to Kristian for #22
PS. Swedish-speakers can go suck it. Learn Finnish you crybabies
Comment by Fägäri — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 2:58 pm
Someone asked about the various communist parties. I’m not an expert, but I did watch the non-parliamentary parties’ election debate. My impression was that the the Communist Party (SKP) are your standard issue eurocommunists; the Communist Workers Party (KTP) are the most hardcore lot, your local Kim Jong-Il admirers; and the Workers Party (STP) are strange environmentalist-communists who want to cooperate with non-communists.
Comment by a lamb with no guiding light — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 3:13 pm
“…strange environmentalist-communists who want to cooperate with non-communists.”
Ah yes, the ones with the dreadlocks. If they only knew what Communism was REALY about
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 3:19 pm
Enviro-Communism is cool as long as I can still get my latte
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 3:23 pm
The argument that Swedish obstructs foreign language learning is also odd. Swedish is a Germanic language, just as English, so they should be complimentary to each other.
Please, don’t tell me that it took no time for me to learn Swedish because I studied English at the same time. It took me years. And please don’t tell me that I could not have learned another language during those years.
Swedish-speaking people in Finland are important, naturally, but there are other, more important things for me and my kids. Sorry.
In a decade or two Finnish-speaking Finns are not forced to study Swedish anymore. It will happen, why not sooner rather than later.
Comment by tomia — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 3:28 pm
About compulsory Swedish in Finland. Well I wish I had those wasted hours back. I barely made though Lukio as my Swedish was crap just like the rest of the majority who got grades from failed to seven. The only people who benefited from it where those who wanted to learn it. And there were plenty of those one too so JG you don’t have to worry about Finns not knowing Swedish in the future.
Instead of learning Swedish in my own time (schoolwork). I studied Japanese instead by my own and through private courses in Helsinki and I had a lot more use of learning Japanese (I speak Japanese almost every day) than from learning Swedish which I have almost completely forgotten.
The bilingual system in Finland is very costly ( I have heard figures from 1-4 billion euros but it would be nice to have an actual study about the costs instead of hearsay). It doesn’t make a lot of sense to learn swedish in and area where there are practically no Swedish speakers but plenty of Russian tourists and businessmen.
JG wrote:
“The argument that Swedish obstructs foreign language learning is also odd. Swedish is a Germanic language, just as English, so they should be complimentary to each other”
Swedish is just as different as is any other language to Finns. The argument that Swedish is essential for learning other Germanic languages is well dumb. The time used to learn Swedish could be used to learn German which is also a Germanic language and thus helps learning other Germanic languages.And in order to have help form Swedish in learning other Germanic languages you already need to speak it first which few Finns do. (so it’s about the use of time)
Compulsory Swedish only creates Finns who can’t speak Swedish and Finns who have antipathies towards Finlanders ( = a Wo/man who lives in Finland as the Swedish speaking Finns call themselves in their own mothertongue).
And those who actually learn it would have done so anyway even if it wouldn’t be compulsory.
A system where the second domestic would be changed to compulsory choose from Swedish/German/French/Russian/etc (very few have the time or the will to learn a third language in school) would enrichen the language scene in Finland and there would be lot less of complaining from the “higher ups” about the fact that there are not enough Finns who study French, German and Russian. And lot less whinning from Finns who don’t wan’t to learn Swedish.
Comment by Blah — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 3:30 pm
Funny story… I was speaking with some Iranian immigrants here in Helsinki recently.
They proudly proclaimed: “WE ARE COMMUNISTS!”
“Communists?” I asked in a perplexed manner.
They answered, “YES, TOTAL COMMUNISTS!”
Well, after some further discussion, I realized that apparently, in Iran, it is fashionable to call oneself a Communist if you are anti-government (Iran’s govt.) and against any form of religion-based society. And perhaps a certain amount of hedonism is also required.
On that last point, I proclaimed: “I am also a TOTAL COMMUNIST!”
Funny (to me at least) but totally true story. And some very nice fellows indeed
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 3:37 pm
I find these “I managed to study Swedish, so everyone else can do it” -arguments very odd. Does the same go with conscription? No need for civil cervice, if the army suits me, then it suits everybody.
Comment by Anonymous — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 3:41 pm
Blah, we don’t call ourselves “Finlanders” in Swedish. The term you mean is probably finlandäre and that means all Finnish people regardless of their mother tongue… so a “Finn with antipathies towards Finlanders” would be in trouble from the second of his birth! Swedish makes a distinction between a “finne” (a Finn who has Finnish as the mother tongue) and a finlandäre. A Finn who has Swedish as their mother tongue is finlandssvensk. Sometimes the rikssvenskar (Swedish Swedes) get this confused as well as use finne/finnar etc for everyone, including the finlandssvenskar.
English-language just uses “Finn” for all of us, regardless of our mother tongue.
And of course, German or Dutch or any other Germanic language would be just as useful in Swedish when learning English, but Swedish of course has more use in Finland and in our region. If you decide to be a policeman in the future, it’s more of benefit for you to know some Swedish than some German.
Comment by JG — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 3:45 pm
“Why, cause you wind up cheating on your wife with your army bunkmate?”
Heh, sure somebody may discover his true self under stress.
There are two mechanisms. Wives are left alone for long periods of time and occasionally, get back some strange, cartridge case flying, beer drinking creature, with skewed sense of humour and tendency to refer everybody by their last name.
The other mechanism is the physical distance between the garrison town and your home and the intoxicating sense of freedom on wednesday nights, when they want you back to the unit as late as 1.00 am. Both are working towards the same direction.
Comment by Antti (the redneck one) — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 3:52 pm
Olavi Mäenpää is a hilarious character indeed. But the blog Phil linked to is just a fake, here’s the official one: http://olavimaenpaa.blogspot.com/
I have no idea why someone would make a fake blog about him as his real blog is quite scary and funny already…
He has some pictures of newspaper articles on his blog and for some reason he has underlined his own name every time they mention it. It’s also interesting how he’s constantly attacking Jussi Halla-aho (True Finns, Helsinki) even in the YLE vaalikone. I guess the extreme right is just as divided as the left.
Comment by Pave — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 4:13 pm
What about setting up a system where neither Finnish nor Swedish speakers have to learn the other group’s language? Make English the language spoken between Finnish speakers and Swedish speakers. That way no one will have to waste time learning a language that one will have almost no use of - or at least less use of compared to say English, German and Russian. Finland will in that way, in a couple of generations, with some really good luck, become a very well-globalized country where language spoken naturally would be English. Everyone’s happy?
Comment by Mikael — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 4:15 pm
Everyone’s happy?
Nah, make it Chinese when you’re at it.
Comment by N. Siinistö — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 4:27 pm
67: So, this is his true blog - here he claims that there are, what, 5 false ones in the net… Turku is a strange, strange place!
Comment by mjr — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 4:35 pm
Maybe Agricola, Lönnrot, J.W. Snellman et al should have thought more about opportunity costs. Why make a national language out of the various Finnish dialects when Russian would’ve been a much better investment?
Comment by N. Siinistö — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 4:38 pm
“Enviro-Communism is cool as long as I can still get my latte”
Yeah. I think that is part of the five-year plan. Too bad sugar is not. Nor is milk of course because all the cows have to go.
Comment by Fred Fry — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 5:07 pm
“so a “Finn with antipathies towards Finlanders†would be in trouble from the second of his birth! Swedish makes a distinction between a “finne†(a Finn who has Finnish as the mother tongue) and a finlandäre. A Finn who has Swedish as their mother tongue is finlandssvensk. Sometimes the rikssvenskar (Swedish Swedes) get this confused as well as use finne/finnar etc for everyone, including the finlandssvenskar.”
Well I stand “corrected”. The reason why I used this term was because some Swedish speaking Finns have used this term in a sense that they are not Finns but of different ethnicity. Their definition of the word was quite different from yours.
I have heard both definitions and yours is the correct one of course but you did notice the smiley at the end of that sentence? Which I put there as to notify that I don’t believe in such a distinction between Finnish speaking Finns and Swedish speaking Finns like some “Finlanders” and “Finnish Finns” do.
Comment by Blah — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 5:17 pm
Why does it have to be a must for everyone to learn Swedish in Finland? Finland, in reality, isn’t truly a bilingual country even though it’s officially pretended to be so. There are some Swedish-speakers living on the southern and western coasts, sure. And yes, it’s also true that many of the most influential people in Finnish political, economical and entertainment life have Swedish-speaking roots (which actually is one of the main reasons why the Swedish-speaking minority still has such a stranglehold on the official Finland). But that’s more or less it. So why the forced Swedish? Couldn’t it be abolished at least in those parts of the country where there really is no need for it?
SFP’s latest tactic to preserve it’s special status is to try and convince the government that all the immigrants and refugees coming to Finland should be located in the Swedish-speaking communities. This is of course in order to artificially pump up the number of Swedish-speakers. Talk about artificial respiration..
Comment by Ã…boy — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 5:53 pm
i think we should just forget both finnish and swedish.
there would be so many benefits if this country was english speaking.
Comment by finnish is gay — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 7:55 pm
Well, English is practically Finland’s third official language. And it does make sense. But to abandon Finnish altogether? Nah. They have Swedish in Sweden. We should have Finnish in Finland.
Comment by Ã…boy — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 7:59 pm
Ã…boy, you are right. The way I see it only handful of Finnish regions might really require the teaching of mandatory Swedish: Uusimaa, Eastern Uusimaa, Finland Proper and Osthrobotnia. To give a right to choose to the students everywhere else would not hurt the right to get Swedish service in places that have even a real Swedish-speaking minority. And by that I mean a minority exceeding the national figure of 5,5%.
The change could be started by moving the regions with virtually no Swedish speakers gradually to a liberalized system, starting with, say, North Karelia, North Savonia and Kainuu. Instead of just Swedish Swedish, the choices would be Swedish, Russian, Spanish, German, and maybe Chinese.
The language requirements for government jobs would be relaxed in the pilot areas at the same time, or a bit later. Allow a decade, and move on to the next set of similar regions. A gradual boost in the numbers of language teachers for the “new” languages would have to be started some years previously, with a slight accent on Russian: the gradual change on the system would allow to predict, which languages would become the most popular.
In keeping with equal rights, mandatory Finnish would also be only maintained in the regions where the percentage of Finnish speakers is over 5,5…
Comment by Drakon — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 8:05 pm
I’m starting to like the idea with dropping both Finnish and Swedish. There’s no use of any of them unless you’re in either Finland or Sweden and you might have use of your Finnish in Estonia.
I’m sure the national spirit and our patriotism wouldn’t suffer if our native language was English instead of Finnish (or Swedish for that matter). Russian would also be good in economical terms but that would perhaps bring us a little too close to Russia for my taste - we better keep it as the second language.
I have over the last hours realized that I have wasted a lot of time bothering to learn Finnish. Is there any chance that the government might financially compensate me for both the time and money I have wasted?
Comment by Mikael — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 8:17 pm
Finland will go back to the 19th century in a positive way; There will be a lot of different nationalities within 10-20 years. Russians are coming but so are many other nationalities.
Anyway, I still liked the idea of the Invasion of Duck Pond Sipoo by Helsinki. Those mostly swedish speaking NIMBYs (Not In My BackYard) deserved to get some punishment. “Oh, Metro will bring all kinds of drunks here, herregud!”.
Comment by tim73 — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 9:33 pm
Which form of English should we then adopt - surely not American, it just doesn’t sound very nice, does it? Nasal, and loud… I would suggest the polite Irish accent (basically RTÉ Irish). Oxford English sounds overly posh to my taste - hmm, or how about Australian? And could we then drop this silly Finnish “kirjakieli” and just start using the local dialects? My mother tongue is actually honest Southern Ostrobothnian! Below the verb “to be” in the present tense in the only real Finnish there is:
Min’oon oikias
Sin’oot vääräs
S’oon vääräs
M’oomma oikias
T’ootta vääräs
N’oon vääräs
Comment by mjr — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 9:37 pm
Which form of English should we then adopt - surely not American, it just doesn’t sound very nice, does it? Nasal, and loud…
You’re right. But hey, we have our homegrown Tankero English in Finland. That might do.
Comment by Ã…boy — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 10:12 pm
Firstly, Ã…boy says that “they have Swedish in Sweden”. That is quite an offensive remark to a finland swede, as it suggests somehow that because we have Swedish as our mother tongue we are not from Finland. I am as Finnish as any Finnish speaking Finn is. I happen to live and work in Stockholm at the moment, and I am certainly not Swedish just because I share their mother tongue. I am proud to be Finnish.
Secondly, Blah, I agree with you, regardless of mother tongue we are all Finnish in ethnicity. However, I have never ever heard the term finländare used to imply just Swedish speaking Finns, that just doesn’t make sense in the Swedish language. I have however often (99,9% of cases by Swedes from Sweden) heard the terms finne/finnar applied to mean Finnish people in general… happens quite often in the media of Sweden.
Anyway, I still liked the idea of the Invasion of Duck Pond Sipoo by Helsinki. Those mostly swedish speaking NIMBYs (Not In My BackYard) deserved to get some punishment. “Oh, Metro will bring all kinds of drunks here, herregud!â€Â
This is more to do with democracy than anything else, not language. I don’t understand people turning into a language issue. The people of Sipoo of both languages have clearly stated that they are against Helsinki’s plan to annex significant amount of Sipoo’s land. The referendum at the weekend showed only 5,1% voting yes to Helsinki’s proposal. Why should Helsinki have the right to Sipoo’s land? Sipoo has already proposed a plan for developing a huge amount of new housing in the municipality.
Comment by JG — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 10:56 pm
That is quite an offensive remark to a finland swede, as it suggests somehow that because we have Swedish as our mother tongue we are not from Finland.
I’m sorry but it’s not my invention. Swedish-speakers in Finland have themselves clearly underlined their “swedishness”. What’s the party called again? That’s right, it’s Svenska folkpartiet. Not Finlandsvenska folkpartiet. The difference is even more clear when the name is translated into Finnish: Ruotsalainen kansanpuolue. Not Suomenruotsalainen kansanpuolue.
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t mean Swedish-speakers are not Finnish. To me they are. But the language isn’t. And how could it be? It’s Swedish.
Comment by Ã…boy — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 11:40 pm
“The people of Sipoo of both languages have clearly stated that they are against Helsinki’s plan to annex significant amount of Sipoo’s land. ”
These fucking Sipoo ducks have being DOING THIS FOR DECADES, preventing all kinds of developing plans. All of sudden Sipoo decides that “OK, 45000 suburban is OK”. FUCK YOU SIPOO SWEDISH SPEAKINS SHIT, GO TO AHVENMAA!
Comment by tim73 — Wed, Feb 28th, 2007 @ 12:05 am
JG:
if there is a conversation involving 1 Finnish speaker and 5 Swedish speakers, it is always the Swedish speakers who will, by unwritten rule, switch to Finnish.
Of course they will. As Swedish speakers are deeply entrenched in the economic elite of the nation, they are not likely to endanger their privileged position by enabling the majority to become genuinely bilingual. They need to remain the bättre folk.
As a Finnish speaker holding a laudatur in Swedish, the hopeless pursuit of maintaining some semblance of oral fluency is quite painful and fruitless.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Wed, Feb 28th, 2007 @ 12:23 am
“Secondly, Blah, I agree with you, regardless of mother tongue we are all Finnish in ethnicity. However, I have never ever heard the term finländare used to imply just Swedish speaking Finns, that just doesn’t make sense in the Swedish language.”
Well I have heard some use it in this sense but they were all probably idiots. One of them “called himself “freudenthalian”" (he actually didn’t use that term but he mentioned how he admired Freudenthals ideas) if I had known way back then who Freudenthal was and what he ment by saying that I would have kicked his ass back to the 19th century. Luckily these kind of idiots like this guy and people like Ida Asplund are in the very small minority.
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, Feb 28th, 2007 @ 12:29 am
“FUCK YOU SIPOO SWEDISH SPEAKINS SHIT, GO TO AHVENMAA!”
Wow go easy with the juice tim73
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, Feb 28th, 2007 @ 12:31 am
#83 Ã…boy: “Swedish-speakers in Finland have themselves clearly underlined their “swedishnessâ€Â.”
When analyzed literally, even the name Suomenruotsalainen means Swede of Finland. And perhaps that has some historical relevance. For example, consider the Viking invaders who attacked the shoreline and drove Finns inland. And then, to solidify their status as the ‘Swedes’ who came from ‘over there’, consider the link with Sweden’s monarchy.
Of course today, Finn-Swedes have no connection to Sweden, but the language construct seems to have been cemented in time. Without the historical precept, calling them Finn-Swedes wouldn’t even make sense. Is this possible?
In English they would be called swedish Finns. In German, schwedische Finnen or schwedishsprechende Finnen. In both cases, the adjective precedes the noun. And in both cases, their nationality is definitively stated as Finnish. In the Finnish language, it’s the complete opposite.
Had this discussion a few times already. Usually on long bike rides
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Wed, Feb 28th, 2007 @ 12:41 am
“When analyzed literally, even the name Suomenruotsalainen means Swede of Finland.”
Sorry, I don’t know what I was thinking. Literally, it means Finland’s Swede.
Duh
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Wed, Feb 28th, 2007 @ 12:45 am
Phil:
Well there’s still just one Libertarian Party.
I should have guessed you’d come up with something this deep.
A useful link:
http://pandagon.net/2007/02/23/how-to-explain-things-to-libertarians/
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Wed, Feb 28th, 2007 @ 1:41 am
chickengreen, calling on others to make sacrifices he won’t make.
Its Al Gore……
a new word was invented for the guy who invented the internet today.
Comment by winter — Wed, Feb 28th, 2007 @ 1:49 am
Nr 85/ Freeridin’ Franklin… that is quite disappointing to hear that you get that treatment from some of us. That is not the reason at all that we normally switch to Finnish. At least not for the vast majority (please do not judge us by those from Grankulla and the old women in fur coats who float between Stockmann and Cafe Ekberg… frankly, i sometimes think half of all the bad feelings towards Swedish speakers is created by this bunch who do unfortunately think of themselves as the better people at times. The rest of us are in a way embarrassed by them.). If you want to use Swedish and carry on speaking Swedish, I know of no Finland Swede (myself included) who would not speak Swedish to you. Again, the people of Grankulla and the Stocka old cronies are NOT representative of the Finland-Swedish population as a whole.
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t mean Swedish-speakers are not Finnish. To me they are. But the language isn’t. And how could it be? It’s Swedish.
The language of Swedish belongs as much to Finland as Finnish does. I wouldn’t suggest to a Quebecois that because he is speaking French in Canada he is speaking a foreign language. In any case, the Same were here before the lot of us
Regarding the usage of the word “svenska” in Sfp’s name, it’s not uncommon in Finland to use svenska to mean just the language and not “of Sweden” as the meaning. There are countless other examples, “Svenska YLE” clearly does not belong to Sweden, nor does Hanken (Svenska handelshögskolan) to name but two.
Comment by JG — Wed, Feb 28th, 2007 @ 2:04 am
JG: “frankly, i sometimes think half of all the bad feelings towards Swedish speakers is created by this bunch who do unfortunately think of themselves as the better people at times. The rest of us are in a way embarrassed by them.).”
Interesting. I sometimes think that half of all bad feelings towards Finnish speakers is created by this bunch who unfortunately think of themselves as better drinkers at times. The rest of us are in a way embarrassed by them……….that is, when we’re not drunk ourselves
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Wed, Feb 28th, 2007 @ 2:19 am
Ok, so once we get this Swedish language dilemma figured out, can someone please tell me which political party is most likely to fulfill the OECD’s recommendations for Finland in the most equitable way?
Remember, the OECD’s recommendations are:
+Lower income taxes;
+Draft more flexible central wage agreements; and
+Target welfare better to avoid unemployment and poverty traps.
http://www.oecd.org/document/36/0,2340,en_33873108_33873360_36552804_1_1_1_1,00.html
I need to know for which party to vote. Can anyone tell me?
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Wed, Feb 28th, 2007 @ 5:08 am
Dear me, do we really have to debate this Swedish thing again - if it’s not broken, don’t fix it. Our policy has been a great success, obligatory Swedish is a small price and in any case natural as far as our history and culture are concerned. Are some people in this thread those silly über-Finns from Suomalaisuuden Liitto that have such a chip on shoulder to dwarf Mount Everest? I’m sure when the “Swedish problem” is dealt with, then it’s on to the other minorities - though I’m sure many already divide their time between different pet-projects of ethnic purification. This is a very small, very loud, very shrill minority that should just be politely ignored. (This as separate from the general question of language education and the obligatory Swedish, they use that grievance as a convenient wedge against the Swedish speaking Finns in general.)
Comment by mjr — Wed, Feb 28th, 2007 @ 8:14 am
#94
Svenska folkpartiet?
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, Feb 28th, 2007 @ 10:18 am
Kristian: Ok, so once we get this Swedish language dilemma figured out, can someone please tell me which political party is most likely to fulfill the OECD’s recommendations for Finland in the most equitable way?
Have you tried out the Helsingin Sanomat’s “Vaalikone” yet?
I myself got up a frighteningly long list of Kokoomus candidates when I tried it out.
Comment by Mikael — Wed, Feb 28th, 2007 @ 10:57 am
which political party is most likely to fulfill the OECD’s recommendations
It’s unlikely that the OECD would know far better than Finnish parties or experts what should be done in Finland. A country that constantly outperforms economically other rich countries (excluding Ireland) is probably doing something right … or perhaps most things.
Anyway, my guess is that whatever parties form the next government, they
-will carry on with lowering taxes and
-will not touch the central wage agreements (even if they could) because the consensus seems to be that they have benfited more than damaged the economy.
The last issue of “targeting welfare better to avoid unemployment and poverty traps” seems to divide the parties, though. The “right-wing” parties along with the Greens seem to strive for more radical changes, some sort of a “citizen’s wage” even. The SDP is firmly against. My gut feeling is that very little will happen until these things have been tried in some other country.
Comment by tomia — Wed, Feb 28th, 2007 @ 12:47 pm
Year 2009 is just around the corner.
Wouldn’t that be the ideal time to get rid of mandatory Swedish in Finnish speaking schools - after all that is 200 years after we got rid of Swedish occupation…
Comment by Taurus — Wed, Feb 28th, 2007 @ 12:54 pm
Svenska folkpartiet?
I don’t like the idea of some group having their own party. It’s like saying, “All we Swedish-speakers think alike”.
Comment by Phil — Wed, Feb 28th, 2007 @ 1:10 pm
tomia: “It’s unlikely that the OECD would know far better than Finnish parties or experts what should be done in Finland. A country that constantly outperforms economically other rich countries…”
No offense tomia, but…. Yeah right
I think we need to avert a problem at the lower end—that is, make sure we’ll be able to employ those people that we so merrily stack in tenement ghettos. Among others too, of course. This world economic boom isn’t going to last forever.
Our economy competes with eastern Europe for foreign capital. We’re going to lose ground if we don’t adapt. Even more optimally would be if we could accumulate our own capital here in Finland, so we don’t need to rely so much on foreign capital. Obviously lowering taxes makes it possible.
As for central wage agreements, I don’t see any reason for workers to earn less money. But they should become more flexible regarding working hours. We let lots of money flow southward during tourist season, just as one example. Our whole service industry suffers because of inflexible unions. They need to get a bit smarter—or be prompted to do so.
The reason I think the OECD is good in this case, is that governments tend to get their heads stuck in their asses. I guess it’s a common phenomenon everywhere; look within one’s own borders and not see the periphery.
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Wed, Feb 28th, 2007 @ 1:58 pm
No offense tomia, but…. Yeah right
Why should I be offended? Because Finland’s economy does so well compared to other rich countries?
I know, it’s hard to be a right-wing critic these days - or any kind of a critic for that matter - when economy is growing 6% and the EU representatives have taken up the Nordic countries as the example the rest should follow.
Comment by tomia — Wed, Feb 28th, 2007 @ 2:13 pm
if it’s not broken, don’t fix it
But it is broken. Few people just have the political willpower to fix it. Preserving the status quo is so much more handy to some.
obligatory Swedish is a small price and in any case natural as far as our history and culture are concerned
How is it “natural”, exactly?
Are some people in this thread those silly über-Finns from Suomalaisuuden Liitto that have such a chip on shoulder to dwarf Mount Everest? I’m sure when the “Swedish problem” is dealt with, then it’s on to the other minorities - though I’m sure many already divide their time between different pet-projects of ethnic purification. This is a very small, very loud, very shrill minority that should just be politely ignored.
Oh dear.
Bunch of Red Herrings and ad hominem attacks and you think you’re somehow being especially clever or convincing? It’s a pleasure to envoke the Godwin’s law at this moment.
Comment by Ã…boy — Wed, Feb 28th, 2007 @ 2:20 pm
Bilingualism is a great success? Maybe for the suomenruotsalaiset. I’d like to join the chorus of those, who’d like the back those hours they wasted, attending Swedish classes. Attending is the right word, because most didn’t learn diddly squat, mostly due to an absolute lack of motivation on put in the work required to learn a foreign language they felt they’d never need.
A mildly amusing anecdote regarding the status quo of bilingualism:
My mother is a social worker, and she was giving a lecture for some clients at her institution. One client had the audacity to use his right to ask a question in Swedish. He was visibly taken aback, when she was able to answer in fluent Swedish. Afterwards, her coworkers were angry about the guy, whom they felt to be a pettyminded bully. And to be fair, they might’ve been right. Apparently, most of them would’ve been unable to speak Swedish with the client, and these are people of an older generation.
Comment by maissi — Wed, Feb 28th, 2007 @ 2:29 pm
One client had the audacity to ask a question in Swedish
But you see, that is the kind of negative attitude, that somehow it is audacious to use our mother tongue that is so hard to understand. If a Finnish speaker was said to be audacious to use Finnish by a finlandssvensk in dealing with e.g. the local authorities in Ekenäs there would be an outcry of epic proportions. How an earth is he being a bully by speaking Swedish? Perhaps he just didn’t feel comfortable or able to articulate his point as well in Finnish. It does work both ways, due to the earlier inadequacies in the education system when Finnish was not compulsory in Swedish speaking schools, there are elderly people who can not speak Finnish well or even at all. I believe it should absolutely be compulsory for Swedish speakers to take Finnish in the student exam as well.
I suggest you read the book Muukalainen Muumilaaksossa. It is very good.
Comment by JG — Wed, Feb 28th, 2007 @ 4:23 pm
I was sarcastic about the audacity, it’s a legal right, after all. About being a bully, they probaly felt that the client was most likely fluent in Finnish as well, as most of Finnish-Swedes are, and was just trying to make some sort of statement. It’s just an example about how some people feel, take it for what it’s worth.
However, I don’t think they were entirely unjustified. I guess many people feel that it’s not really fair to ask that the large majority work hard to learn a foreign language really well, in case that some day they’ll need it to serve a small minority. I know I found it repulsing and unjustified.
Comment by maissi — Wed, Feb 28th, 2007 @ 4:39 pm
I have to wonder if it would be more effective to channel resources, that would otherwise be spent on forcing the unwilling to learn Swedish, into better public services for Swedish speakers. Seems like it would have a more targeted effect. That way those who actually work in the public sector, will be more prepared.
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Wed, Feb 28th, 2007 @ 4:46 pm
Ã…boy, I understand this is a really, really touchy subject for you - the minute you start making even elementary sense, I’ll be glad to respond!
Anyway, I must say that I am always totally mystified on the continuing heatedness of this language issue - I mean is this the 19th century still, do we have Yrjö-Koskinen and Meurman crossing swords with Freudenthal? Hey, newsflash: it’s 2007, for god’s sake! Talk about peculiar hobby horses…
Comment by mjr — Wed, Feb 28th, 2007 @ 5:01 pm
Aha, my apologies Maissi… my sarcasm detector needs to be repaired!
Comment by JG — Wed, Feb 28th, 2007 @ 5:05 pm
They tried to make me learn Swedish, but I prevailed. So go ahead and throw your tax money away.
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, Feb 28th, 2007 @ 5:12 pm
I guess hamburger flippers make a lot of money.
Comment by Anonymous — Wed, Feb 28th, 2007 @ 5:34 pm
MJR what do you dont undestand can you explain
pakkoruotsi.net
Comment by swedish — Wed, Feb 28th, 2007 @ 6:47 pm
Åboy, I understand this is a really, really touchy subject for you - the minute you start making even elementary sense, I’ll be glad to respond!
You’ve sometimes had excellent insights on different topics on this blog and I’ve agreed with you in more than one occasion. On this matter, however, you seem to be peculiarly silly and close-minded. I’m guessing this topic is touching some nerve in you, pal.
do we have Yrjö-Koskinen and Meurman crossing swords with Freudenthal?
Maybe the general feeling is that the Freudenthalists got the upper hand after all.
Comment by Ã…boy — Wed, Feb 28th, 2007 @ 7:02 pm
“Vaalitäkynä “suomalainen kansanpuolue” on nokkela siinä kuin “työväen presidentti”. Pohjanmaan raamattuvyöhykkeellä RKP ei tosin ole yhtä liberaali kuin Helsingissä. Joitakin suomenkielisiä hämmentää kuitenkin se, että käsite on kuulemma ruotsiksi “finländsk” eikä “finsk”", jota J.L. Runeberg käytti. “Suomenmaalaisuus” otettiin käyttöön sata vuotta sitten, kun “itäruotsalaiset” halusivat erottua “mongoleista”. Samaa käsitettä käytettiin Suomeen sijoitetuista tsaarin rykmenteistä. Suomenruotsalaiset saavat tietenkin käyttää mitä käsitteitä haluavat. “Suomalaisen kansanpuolueen” kannattaisi kuitenkin vihdoin irtisanoutua “suomenmaalaisuuteen” liittyneestä rasismista.”
– Iltalehti, pääkirjoitus 6.11.2006
Is there any truth in this article?
Comment by Alex — Wed, Feb 28th, 2007 @ 7:26 pm
#107 Sounds like a very good idea.
Comment by Mikael — Wed, Feb 28th, 2007 @ 7:46 pm
Is there any truth in this article?
Not a word. It’s pretty amazing that Ilta-Sanomat is repeating talking points from Suomen Sisu.
Comment by Erik — Wed, Feb 28th, 2007 @ 11:54 pm
Sorry, Ilta-Lehti.
Comment by Erik — Thu, Mar 1st, 2007 @ 12:00 am
Not a word. It’s pretty amazing that Ilta-Sanomat is repeating talking points from Suomen Sisu.
I had once a somewhat frustrating discussion with a fellow from Närpes. He had just started his studies in Ã…bo Akademi. First he told that the Närpes people are descendants of Vikings. Probably he saw that I wasn’t impressed - or pissed off - so he changed the subject. Now he told that Turku/Ã…bo is an old Swedish town where Finns lived only as servants. Before I changed to a different table I wondered why his friends didn’t seem to be the least embarrassed.
I also used to know a fellow from Pargas who held those old “Germanics vs. Mongols ideas” very dear.
Anyway, what’s described in the Ilta-Lehti’s article above isn’t all that far-fetched, although it would have been more up-to-date some 70 years ago. Back then “Swedishness” was definitely one of the ideas that united the socially different Swedish speakers. The idea kind of backfired when a large portion immigrated to Sweden later on.
But then again, I know that the Finland’s Swedes have to suffer from these kind of “verbal attacks” much more often if they happen to speak Swedish in a wrong bar or the like.
Comment by Anonymous — Thu, Mar 1st, 2007 @ 3:00 pm
“It is kind of typical of political extremists, particularly those who are continually struggling to fit reality into the Grand Theory.”
Indeed this has happened in islamic extremism too. They have progressed from trying to persuade the populace of Arab nations to the point where killing anyone not part of their tiny group is ok because by doing nothing everyone else is supporting the status quo.
Comment by m — Thu, Mar 1st, 2007 @ 9:49 pm