Immigrants required to earn high salaries before bringing family to Finland
Immigrants in Finland must earn a minimum of 2,880 euros per month before they can bring the wife and three kids…
According to Finland’s SOS Center, a support centre for foreigners, immigrants are required to earn an exceptionally high salary in order to be entitled to bring their family to Finland. In a press release on Wednesday, senior expert Lena Bremer from the centre noted that an immigrant in possession of a residence permit is required to earn a minimum of 2,880 euros per month before they are deemed capable of supporting a five-person family.
Such a requirement is surprising, says Ms Bremer, given that a five-person Finnish family is considered able to support itself through income support payments, which would total 1,400 euros per month.
But after tax that 2,880 is more like 1,900; then once you subtract other benifits they would be not entitled to, such as things like daycare for example, then the two numbers are actually quite close to one another. Of course you would see that if you took a moment to do real math
Saying that I agree its a stupid double standard and yet another example of say one thing practice another which is quite comon in Finland IMHO.
Comment by John — Thu, Feb 22nd, 2007 @ 11:48 pm
Look. If they can’t support the welfare state, then kick them out.
Comment by winter — Fri, Feb 23rd, 2007 @ 1:13 am
I wish someone could just somehow ban winter. This nonsense is getting really old and tired.
Comment by Passer-by — Fri, Feb 23rd, 2007 @ 4:00 am
In the US, the requirements are to have two legs and the ability to walk. Then you can come. I suppose a peg leg on crutches would be accepted also.
Comment by maaksalaatikko — Fri, Feb 23rd, 2007 @ 5:18 am
Hah, if the US requirements were that easy, my husband would be here. But however hard the US requirements are, the Finnish ones are just a bit harder. For example, you have to live in the US for 3 years (when married to a citizen) and in Finland, 4 years.
But I guess this is just Finland’s way of saying “we really don’t want immigrants, m’kay?”
Comment by Rochelle — Fri, Feb 23rd, 2007 @ 5:39 am
This measure is surely intended to prevent all those male mulsims in Finland from importing alian brides from their home countries who are forcefully wed to them after a deal between their family clans. However, maybe just using high income is not a good policy to prevent this pre-modern practice of muslim immigrants. Maybe it makes sense to look at other European countries first (e.g., NL, DK, AT) to see if they have introduced smarter policies to prevent this type of muslim marriage practice.
Comment by bafana — Fri, Feb 23rd, 2007 @ 6:52 am
Rochelle aside the replies to this article are pretty scary; all of them very ignorant or prejudice.
Comment by John — Fri, Feb 23rd, 2007 @ 8:14 am
My post was a tongue in cheek joke. I’ve got no problem with immigrants.
Comment by maaksalaatikko — Fri, Feb 23rd, 2007 @ 8:18 am
@7: Mentioning the fact about what is going on has nothing to do with ignorance or prejudice. On the contrary. Denying obvious facts doesn’t solve any problems. It is a bit stupid to hold up 4 fingers and force ourselves into believing they are five just because some adopted ideological state of mind demands it that way.
Comment by bafana — Fri, Feb 23rd, 2007 @ 8:55 am
Bafana is absolutely correct. It would be idiotic not to keep clannish Middle Eastern Muslims from bringing their alien brides (not themselves entitled to refugee or whatever status) into the country. Those alien brides kept between the fist and the stove have proven to be a major integration hurdle elsewhere in Europe. The well-known neo nazi rag Der Spiegel recently ran an article on Muslim integration problems in Germany.
Comment by Markku — Fri, Feb 23rd, 2007 @ 9:36 am
How did the level of salary for a foreigner to bring their family to Finland automatically go to Muslims? Wow.
Comment by Stephanie — Fri, Feb 23rd, 2007 @ 10:41 am
I have an impression from these comments that “male muslims” are evil, bad and unwanted :).
Comment by A poor male muslim :( — Fri, Feb 23rd, 2007 @ 11:15 am
I guess that is true, when they enforce pre-modern, patriarchic, and tribalistic conditions in their western host societies. Otherwise it is not true.
Comment by bafana — Fri, Feb 23rd, 2007 @ 11:28 am
Europeans would not have such problems with muslims if they themselves were as open and tolerant to other cultures as they expect Europeans to be. In other words, it’s supposed to be a two-way street. You want to be tolerated? Fine, but you must then be tolerate yourself.
Many muslims feel superior towards Europeans/westerners and do not want to meet them half way. Everything western is seen as corrupt and unworthy. Muslims want to import their traditions and tabu’s and even force them upon western societies. On top of it all they see themselves above all criticism. If someone dares to open their mouth and point out something critical then they are “enemies” of Islam and must be killed. How could any rational dialogue exist in such an environment?
Comment by Ã…boy — Fri, Feb 23rd, 2007 @ 12:08 pm
Hi all,
From where does the assumption come in automatically that this has to do with importing brides and families as mentioned in posts above?
Why can it not pertain to e.g. non-EU migrants who move to Finland? Say somebody from the US/AU/NZ/IN who moves to Finland with a job and needs to earn at least the said amount before they can bring their family here?
Wondering…
Comment by DogTrainer — Fri, Feb 23rd, 2007 @ 12:22 pm
I have nothing against Muslims or their lifestyle, nor do I see reasons for them to change their ways.
But I’m pretty sure the current national sentiment is to close doors to non-western immigration for a while. It’s perfectly legitimate for any country to set high barriers or even close all doors completely.
By the way, here’s what it looked like when Finns emigrated to the “western shore.”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNOn9FRT0Hg
Valhalla we are coming!
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Fri, Feb 23rd, 2007 @ 12:23 pm
@15: This is a bit of a naive question. Such people from US/AU/NZ/IN are part of the set of societies that are more or less secular, open, and democratically accountable. How many countries where islam reigns belong to that club? Hence, if we ask for the intended effect of such an income rule in Finland, I am certain it is not meant to target people from US/AU/NZ/IN who typically integrate easily because of a mindset that is compatible with their host society.
Comment by bafana — Fri, Feb 23rd, 2007 @ 12:29 pm
“Arabi- ja muslimisiirtolaisten kehnoa menestystä tarkastellessa tuntee kiusausta vyöryttää syy siirtolaisten itsensä niskoille: ehkä he eivät vain kerta kaikkiaan sopeudu länsimaiseen yhteiskuntaan. Yhdysvalloissa arabisiirtolaisten menestys on kuitenkin ollut loistava. Arabit ovat USA:ssa siirtolaisväestön kermaa; hyvinkoulutettuja, hyvin toimeentulevia ja kaukana polttopulloja heittelevistä öykkäreistä tai vaimojaan kurittavista fundamentalisteista. Koulutus- ja tulotasolla mitattuna Yhdysvaltojen arabit eivät menesty ainoastaan paremmin kuin siirtolaiset keskimäärin; he menestyvät jopa koko väestön keskiarvoa paremmin.”
from peterelk.com
Comment by nah europe is gay — Fri, Feb 23rd, 2007 @ 12:32 pm
#18 I think many of those arabs moving to USA are adapted to the western culture to begin with. They may have a degree from an american university and don’t find a job back home corresponding to their qualifications. Many wealthy Tunisians, for example, send their kids to America to get an education.
I guess in the states, they throw you into water and expect you to swim, while in here there are good chances to use the safety net as a hammock.
Then we have these flowerhatted aunties hoovering all the troublemakers here. There are usually two reasons, why people back home drive you into exile. It’s either their fault or YOUR fault.
And the last but not least, the dickheaded employers. Heck, I had an Algerian workmate back in HKL, a meteorologist. He couldn’t get a job up to his qualifications, so he was there driving tram.
Comment by Antti (the redneck one) — Fri, Feb 23rd, 2007 @ 1:10 pm
@18: It is interesting that the highly educated, capable, secular, and modern muslims go to the USA and the pre-modern, tribalistic, and patriarchic type seems to end up in Europe. Would be nice to have it the other way round. But for that the EU countries would need to improve their immigration principles. How about applying a point system like (i think) Canada that seriously takes into account the education level, language capabilities, skills, and so on? That would be much smarter than just using an income level for migration and.
Comment by bafana — Fri, Feb 23rd, 2007 @ 1:17 pm
USA is flooded with illegal immigrants. Estimated 40 TUNNELS in any given time are operational under US-Mexico border. What those immigrants are going to do when the heavily indebted US economy finally collapses in near future? That is not going to be pretty.
Comment by tim73 — Fri, Feb 23rd, 2007 @ 2:05 pm
bafana: “How about applying a point system like (i think) Canada that seriously takes into account the education level, language capabilities, skills, and so on?”
Sounds reasonable for other countries because they can utilize immigrants in their service sectors—even as entrepreneurs. But our high-tax system ensures that we don’t have much of a service sector.
So using the income figure ensures that we only get those with out the box corporate skills. Otherwise, we run the risk of supporting them with welfare.
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Fri, Feb 23rd, 2007 @ 2:48 pm
Note that the quote from peterelk talked about ARABS, not muslims. The USA has attracted a lot of CHRISTIAN ARABS from the Lebanon and other Middle-Eastern countries were Christians have been persecuted by Muslims.
Comment by Markku — Fri, Feb 23rd, 2007 @ 3:06 pm
“heavily indebted US economy finally collapses in near future? ”
been hearing that for 40 years now. Doesn’t it get old?
Wait how un PC of me. I forget you all have the BBC on.
Comment by winter — Fri, Feb 23rd, 2007 @ 3:46 pm
God, I love it when Phil writes posts about immigration!!!
The comment section usually turns into a very comical “FINS GONE WILD” edition of political discourse. And, it often includes the usual game plan present at *any* debate about immigration:
STEP 1. Someone usually starts off by automatically equating the broad term “immigration” to one specific immigrant group. (Here, it’s usually Mexicans. There it’s the usually Muslim.)
STEP 2. A few absurd claims about backwards, out of fashion, cavemanlike traditions are made. Skin color doesn’t cut it anymore. Too “obviously” racist, you know? So, instead, the comments are in reference to the immigrants’ culture, religion or some combination thereof.
STEP 3. Armageddon-type cries for help ensue. “They’re coming!!! They’re coming!!!! They’re FLOODING our nation and they’re SUCKING UP ALL OF OUR NATIONAL RESOURCES!!!!!! AAAAAH!!!!!”
STEP 4. The sane among the crowd tend to pipe up.
STEP 5. Personal attacks commerce. (If I may interject here, I’d like to say that I’m always a bit saddened that no one ever reverts to telling “yo mamma” jokes. Remember those???)
STEP 6. Rinse. Spit. Repeat cycle.
Comment by funkybrownchick — Fri, Feb 23rd, 2007 @ 3:50 pm
Phil, yo momma’s an American!!
Sorry, sorry, sorry … I couldn’t resist. I’ll go back to being an adult now …
Comment by funkybrownchick — Fri, Feb 23rd, 2007 @ 3:53 pm
Hi all,
bafana: I completely agree with the clash of cultures/society as discussed and pointed out above by a number of posters. However, my question, in that sense, was trying to point out that this rule of a minimum income requirement extends beyond those that are coming from those countries/societies. I.e. it does not matter where the person come from, if he/she want to get your family here, they must earn a minimum amount as required.
That being said - I agree with the views as presented above.
Kind regards.
Comment by DogTrainer — Fri, Feb 23rd, 2007 @ 3:54 pm
Hmmm, “yo mama, my daddy owns your daddy, so get back to the cotton field and start picking.” I heard this one back in Detroit in 1986 and never quite understood, where the punch line was, as the locals seemed practically fold over and howl. Is it supposed to work by breaking solemn, revered, politically correct atmosphere, like president farting loud during the church service or what?
Could somebody educate me, please, I have been puzzled for 21 years.
Comment by Antti (the redneck one) — Fri, Feb 23rd, 2007 @ 4:16 pm
Oh, goody!! I was right. The personal attacks begin. Sweetie, please try to be more original next time, okay?
Comment by funkybrownchick — Fri, Feb 23rd, 2007 @ 4:20 pm
“I have been puzzled for 21 years.” yea.. the BBC will do that to you.
Hay did you ever figure out that Palestine beach explosion yet? You know the one the BBC said it was an Israel shell. Turned out to be a Palestine planted Land Mine, the poor Palestine Family laid their towel’s on.
Do we need to talk about “Green Helmit guy”?
Comment by winter — Fri, Feb 23rd, 2007 @ 4:23 pm
“STEP 2. A few absurd claims about backwards, out of fashion, cavemanlike traditions are made.”
Probably true.
“Skin color doesn’t cut it anymore. Too “obviously†racist, you know? So, instead, the comments are in reference to the immigrants’ culture, religion or some combination thereof.”
Well, we Finns are a Germanic/Asian mixture. Despite that most here don’t believe in any notion of ‘master race’, we’re rather homogenous and it’s common for people to prefer keeping the genetic landscape somewhat consistent.
Obviously, some have stronger feelings about it than others: I don’t mind a small amount of non-European immigration, but there are also those who’d like to start sending people ‘back.’
Many families suffered in the aftermath of the war; and now they fear this becoming an extension of Africa or the Middle East. Makes them feel like their efforts were for nothing. Strong feelings run within families. Even my own.
It’s the prerogative of any country to decide these things. And we’re not obligated to be a land for immigrants, like the USA. Many people here feel that our government ’sold us out’ by allowing all types of races to enter Finland. Did we place too much trust in our government maybe?
Perhaps talking about culture does provide a handy cover to avoid talking about race; but the two are so conveniently linked. And euphemisms are usually more comfortable, I suppose.
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Fri, Feb 23rd, 2007 @ 5:48 pm
“Sweetie, please try to be more original next time, okay?”
Heh, I figured it was an old one, but I have been cut out of supply since 1986 and couldn’t invent new ones, because I didn’t get the old one
Winter deserves a poetic answer:
A Finn is the one who answers when not asked,
asks when not answered, does not answer when asked,
the one who loses the way, yells on the shore,
and on the opposite shore yells another of the same kind:
the forest clangs, echoes, the pines hum.
There comes a Finn and groans, is here and groans,
goes there and groans, is as in the sauna and groans
when the other one throws water on the stove.
That kind of a Finn always has a partner,
he is never alone, and that partner is a Finn.
And nothing separates a Finn from a Finn,
nothing except the death and the police.
…As Jorma Etto put it in Jaakko Heikkilä’s translation.
Comment by Antti (the redneck one) — Fri, Feb 23rd, 2007 @ 5:56 pm
“is as in the sauna “. I am going to turn the Sauna on, well light the fire and toss wood in it to help global warming. Its windy in Maryland, gusts up to 50 mph, and the boat is battering the dock. But heck, low taxes mean I can just buy another.
Or was the Hummer the next thing on my list?
Comment by winter — Fri, Feb 23rd, 2007 @ 6:42 pm
Funny one: (Jet Blue just stranded some of their passengers on airplanes up to 10 hrs, sitting on runways, toilets overflowing, in the last storm)
Under increased pressure to announce an exit strategy from Iraq, President George W. Bush revealed plans today to bring U.S. troops home on the budget airlines JetBlue.
Mr. Bush received praise for his decision to withdraw American troops, but his choice of JetBlue to transport them raised more than a few eyebrows.
According to most official estimates, with its recent spate of scheduling problems and flight delays, JetBlue could take up to seven years to bring U.S. troops home, and possibly ten years in the event of inclement weather.
But at a press conference at the White House today, the president argued that the selection of Jet Blue was “crucial†to the success of his latest exit strategy.
“Setting an exact timetable for a withdrawal from Iraq would be playing right into the enemy’s hands,†Mr. Bush said. “By going with JetBlue, our enemy will have no idea when we’re leaving.â€Â
To emphasizes his point, Mr. Bush added, “And neither will we.â€Â
Across Iraq, U.S. GIs were hopeful that the news about JetBlue meant that they would be home by Christmas, or at least by Easter 2012.
Comment by winter — Fri, Feb 23rd, 2007 @ 6:46 pm
Winter, if you have such a kickass life, why do you come here to whine?
Comment by Anonymous — Fri, Feb 23rd, 2007 @ 7:39 pm
STEP 7. Someone calls all who oppose immigration racists, and ignores all rational arguments against immigration.
Comment by Anonymous — Fri, Feb 23rd, 2007 @ 7:50 pm
“kickass life”
Huh, the winds are topping 40, boat is stuck at the dock, have to wait for the wind to slow a bit to light the Sauna off.
Yea, must be Global Warming on Mars, as their ice cap is reducing. Hay, we use that excuse here, so why not apply it to Mars?
Comment by winter — Fri, Feb 23rd, 2007 @ 7:54 pm
The immigration procedure is about the same going either way across the atlantic with the exception that the US requires a health screening for the spouse, i.e. chest x-ray and various immunization/common diseases screen. Otherwise, the paperwork is almost identical as both countries require a statement of support from the spouse. Unfortunately the US has much higher fees and Finland requires 4 years of residency before granting a permanent permit. Filing for a US permit out of the US embassy in Helsink though is rather speedy. The visit to the embassy is a bit creepy though with all the security and the fact that all the magazines were Finnish as were all but one of the people I talked to (I was under the impression that the embassy is a small US state inside Helsinki…:) ).
But…basically neither country wants a bunch of deadbeats and reserve the right to refuse entry if they are a high risk for living on the dole.
Comment by hfb — Fri, Feb 23rd, 2007 @ 9:27 pm
Those creepy Finns and their magazines
Truthfully hbf, don’t you miss it here a little bit?
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Fri, Feb 23rd, 2007 @ 9:33 pm
“…toss wood in it to help global warming.”…
Err…wood as fuel has a short carbon cycle, i.e. you don’t contribute to global warming, as your firewood would produce the same amount of carbon dioxide even if it was rotting naturally in the forest at the end of its life cycle. Mahoganny from the Amazon rainforests may do the trick though.
That was the main sauna heating fuel (probably not from the Amazon though) for one constructor I know for some time, as his clients wife (typical Oulu-tech rich noveau) didn’t like the color shade of the panels and had them torn down just after they were put in place.
(Women…!)
Comment by Antti (the redneck one) — Fri, Feb 23rd, 2007 @ 9:52 pm
“you don’t contribute to global warming”
hay I like that. I put out carbon emissions, warm up the planet, and it does not count.
I may be an environmentalist after all.
Naw…… By the way, what if it cooled? Would we then we allowed unlimited burning? I mean in order to save Finland from ice no less. See I do have a good side.
Comment by winter — Fri, Feb 23rd, 2007 @ 10:33 pm
It’s nice to see the “wood doesn’t contribute to global warming” argument. It’s kind of like the “we can’t let the Chinese buy cars” argument or Al Gore flying all around the US in a private jet to promote his global warming movie. So hypocritical it makes a person laugh.
Comment by maaksalaatikko — Sat, Feb 24th, 2007 @ 1:04 am
“USA is flooded with illegal immigrants. Estimated 40 TUNNELS in any given time are operational under US-Mexico border. What those immigrants are going to do when the heavily indebted US economy finally collapses in near future? That is not going to be pretty.”
Tim73, not again. Is Thomas your alter ego? I suggest buying a white toga and making a “The World’s Going to End Tomorrow” sign and standing on a street corner. Or maybe you all ready do.
Comment by maaksalaatikko — Sat, Feb 24th, 2007 @ 1:07 am
Al Gore flying all around the US in a private jet to promote his global warming movie.
Yes, but AL Gore invented the internet, so he gets a pass.
Comment by winter — Sat, Feb 24th, 2007 @ 1:17 am
Bill Clinton the President nobody cared for.
If there ever was an individual 180 degrees out of sync with the ideals and the values of the USA, it was Clinton . He was a known draft dodger, military hating, self absorbed, unspeakingly shameless and immoral individual, who the Left managed to elect President of the United States of America .
Clinton ’s antics in the White House would have brought court martial, conviction, and Dishonorable Discharge had he been a military member.
We still suffer oral sex on school buses, because the President told the world it wasn’t real sex, and some of our children believed him. It took a lot of years, but now I became certain. There is a big difference in the right and the left on all fronts, and for the first time I started feeling angry and shamed that the majority of the American people were actually willing to vote for such an individual.
Comment by winter — Sat, Feb 24th, 2007 @ 1:20 am
Kirstin the person from Espoo made the comment about how some people in Finland might feel let down by their governments decision to let foreigners into Finland
3 responses to that
1. In comparative terms there are still hardly any foreigners here when compared against modern affluent progressive European countries such as Denmark and Norway.
2. Our friend from Espoo is probably as racist as they come, a typical foreigner hating Finn.
3. Double standards. Why should other countries allow Finns to live and work in their countries when Finns, by Kirstins own admission, object against foreigners living and working in Finland. Finland should be kicked out of the EU and Finns living abroad should be forced to repatriate until the double standards stop.
Comment by Anonymous — Sat, Feb 24th, 2007 @ 2:34 am
“Finns living abroad should be forced to repatriate until the double standards stop.’
So we lose 1/3 of Miami? Hay we like the Finn’s we have. Most have gone over to the Dark Side by now. Hint: They have money to protect from Government redistribution.
Comment by winter — Sat, Feb 24th, 2007 @ 2:59 am
“1. In comparative terms there are still hardly any foreigners here when compared against modern affluent progressive European countries such as Denmark and Norway.”
True, but irrelevant.
“2. Our friend from Espoo is probably as racist as they come, a typical foreigner hating Finn.”
Not true. Our friend from Espoo doesn’t decide whom he likes, dislikes or even associates with, based on race. Furthermore, he believes that foreigners and people of all races should be treated respectfully.
“3. Double standards. Why should other countries allow Finns to live and work in their countries when Finns, by Kirstins own admission, object against foreigners living and working in Finland.”
Irrelevant. Each country can decide for itself.
“Finland should be kicked out of the EU and Finns living abroad should be forced to repatriate until the double standards stop.”
As far as I know, most Finns support free movement within the EU. Even Aussies and Americans seem to be tolerated
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Sat, Feb 24th, 2007 @ 3:49 am
There’s a difference between Finnish immigrants abroad and some other immigrants in Finland: The Finns do not tend to impose their views, values and ideals on the host culture. Finns tend to think that “when in Rome, do as the Romans do” and that’s what they expect from other nationalities in Finland as well.
All rational discussion in these topics tends to plummet to the sewers even before it begins when anyone who has anything critical to say is more or less labeled as a racist. That’s not a very constructive view. Naive, unconditional acceptance and turning a blind eye has come to an end even in Denmark and in other traditionally very tolerant countries. Read the news.
Comment by Ã…boy — Sat, Feb 24th, 2007 @ 12:17 pm
“It’s kind of like the “we can’t let the Chinese buy cars†argument or Al Gore flying all around the US in a private jet to promote his global warming movie.”
When Al Gore is flying around in his blow torch, he is releasing carbon from deposits, where it would otherwise stay practically forever. When Winter puts wood into sauna stove, that same piece of wood would end up into atmosphere anyway as eventually the tree dies and all the little microbes “burn” it in their metabolism.
If Winter’s firewood vendor practices sensible forestry, he extracts the same number of cubic meters or less wood from his forests per year than the yearly growth to keep the steady income. The carbon dioxide from Winter’s sauna is thus taken back into the yearly growth of the vendor’s forest. That’s the fast cycle carbon.
Comment by Antti (the redneck one) — Sat, Feb 24th, 2007 @ 12:42 pm
Antti, am I mistaken? A tree decomposing in the forest keeps the carbon “in” longer than when the wood is burned. As the carbon dioxide of the burned wood is waiting to become the building blocks of new trees, it stays in the atmosphere as a greenhouse gas contributing to the possible global warming. I don’t know how much the increased co2 speeds up the growth of trees and other plants (if at all) but I doubt it goes straight to new growth… I would love it if someone more educated on this issue would correct me if I’m wrong.
Besides, the jetplane might actually slow global warming according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_dimming
Not that I really wanted to defend Gore who seems just as despicable as any other professional politician.
Comment by Pave — Sat, Feb 24th, 2007 @ 2:50 pm
Renowned Jewish Scholar Object of University of Helsinki Hiring Scandal
University of Helsinki authorities to investigate for irregularities and slander in hiring process at Swedish School of Social Sciences. International scholar calls for major overhaul to “amateurish” hiring practises.
Helsinki, Finland 21 Feb 2007 - The University of Helsinki and its sub-division the
Swedish School of Social Sciences might seem like a bizarre place for
scientific scandal to brew. But a hiring decision issued last year by the
president of the little college which educates both journalists and social
scientists has now come under increasing scrutiny. The decision on whom to
hire is not the object of attention in this growing scandal which has a
Jewish connection.
What Finnish authorities are currently investigating are expert statements
offered by University of Helsinki professors during the hiring process in
which they assured the Review Committee that a Jewish applicant of
international repute had never been admitted to the University of Helsinki
as a post-graduate student, an allegation which has categorically been proven
false.
Another statement claimed to evaluate earlier work by the Jewish applicant
with the author claiming to have knowledge of the applicant’s earlier
scholarship applications. However, further scrutiny revealed that the
professor who wrote the statement cannot reasonably or legally have had any
knowledge of this information.
At present, the University of Helsinki has few if any measures to avoid or
detect fraudulent statements made by their faculty or to uncover other
irregularities in the appointment process. However, University of Helsinki
authorities are expected to further investigate the issue and present the
case to the University of Helsinki President’s office for review within three
months.
Because of the serious nature of the statements and the fact that the
college has rejected his candidature four times previously, the applicant has
requested that the university review the records of previous decisions for
irregularities and that the University of Helsinki in the present case take
disciplinary action against the two professors and investigate whether
there are indications of ethnic or other forms of discrimination.
http://www.sockom.helsinki.fi
Comment by Sebu — Sat, Feb 24th, 2007 @ 3:10 pm
#52 Another nice side-effect of multi-culturalism. Let’s go all the way, like in America where you can’t even make basic hiring decisions without first considering lawsuits based on skin color, ethnicity, genitals, etc. We really need that kind of overhead here in Finland.
But before anyone criticizes me for being racist or anti-foreigner, I’ll disclaim (in American fashion even) that I DON’T dislike people who are different from me; my statement relates purely to governmental policy regarding immigration from non-EU sources.
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Sat, Feb 24th, 2007 @ 4:00 pm
“If Winter’s firewood vendor practices sensible forestry, he extracts the same number of cubic meters or less wood from his forests per year than the yearly growth to keep the steady income.”
So lets cut down all the tree’s? plant grain, have humans eat grain. No more polluting firewood?
Problem solved? Or is it really solved, as the earth makes way more carbon emissions than man ever has.
I have 3 chainsaws. I can start cutting right away.
Comment by winter — Sat, Feb 24th, 2007 @ 5:04 pm
When Al Gore is flying around in his blow torch, he is releasing carbon from deposits, where it would otherwise stay practically forever.
The point that is often missed is that oil reserves are considerably less significant than coal reserves, not to mention methane hydrates on the arctic seabed, estimated to surpass coal reserves.
Once the price of oil hits around $100, it’ll become commercially feasible to liquefy coal by Fischer-Tropsch processes AND if methods to extract methane hydrates from the bottom of the ocean are discovered, then it’ll we’ll definitely be on an accelerated highway to Hell. Yippee! Yeee-hawwww!
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Sat, Feb 24th, 2007 @ 5:33 pm
Winter - “We still suffer oral sex on school buses, because the President told the world it wasn’t real sex, and some of our children believed him.”
Snerk, I needed a good chuckle. Honey, ain’t you never heard of those chastity pacts from the right religious groups? Supposedly those kids found oral sex ages ago since, you know, Bill didn’t invent it. I distinctly remember some of the priests getting into such things years ago when I was in school….
If you need to look to a politician for moral guidance, you are way more fucked than a mere religous nutjob.
Comment by hfb — Sat, Feb 24th, 2007 @ 6:18 pm
1. In comparative terms there are still hardly any foreigners here when compared against modern affluent progressive European countries such as Denmark and Norway.
Yes well what do the foreigners do in Denmark and Norway? Work? Yes, because those countries are a-f-f-l-u-e-n-t. They can afford to hire people there. Here everything is closing down.
2. Our friend from Espoo is probably as racist as they come, a typical foreigner hating Finn.
Are you then a typical foreigner? Idiot who comes here with their arse gilt shining like a beacon in the night? You are too easy to hate, but they hated you back home too so you had to leave.
3. Double standards. Why should other countries allow Finns to live and work in their countries when Finns, by Kirstins own admission, object against foreigners living and working in Finland. Finland should be kicked out of the EU and Finns living abroad should be forced to repatriate until the double standards stop.
Maybe you should be repatriated to your home country, so you can live in a luxury. Oh, so you don’t have jobs and live in squalor? Yeah, well no shit sherlock, there ain’t too much wealth to distribute in these forests either.
Comment by Hank W. — Sat, Feb 24th, 2007 @ 6:43 pm
winter:
We still suffer oral sex on school buses
Yeah, I can’t begin to tell you what a miserable suffering it is.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Sat, Feb 24th, 2007 @ 7:24 pm
maksalaatikko:
“Tim73, not again. Is Thomas your alter ego?”
So now you add guilt-by-association to your repertoire of tools for debating.
I can answer in place of Tim73. No, Tim73 is not my alter ego. The answer to yuor original question should be deducable using “plain logic”. That is, if you have those tools in your toolbox.
Comment by Thomas — Sat, Feb 24th, 2007 @ 7:34 pm
winter:
“He was a known draft dodger, military hating, self absorbed, unspeakingly shameless and immoral individual, who the Left managed to elect President of the United States of America .”
Unlike the current one, who participated “bravely” in the Vietnam war, by drinking and flying aeroplanes in Texas.
“We still suffer oral sex on school buses, because the President told the world it wasn’t real sex, and some of our children believed him.”
Shocking.
But I don’t know what is more shocking, the fact that some children (suitably aged to perform oral sex) believed oral sex is not real sex, or that they think that it is OK to have sex on school buses as long as it is not REAL SEX. How common is this in the U.S. That country has to be the country equipped with the highest fraction of retards among the population. Jeez.
But Franklin has a point though. Suffering might not be the correct word here. But I guess winter suffers hard when recieving oral sex. Maybe that’s why he bitches here all the time.
“It took a lot of years, but now I became certain. There is a big difference in the right and the left on all fronts, and for the first time I started feeling angry and shamed that the majority of the American people were actually willing to vote for such an individual.”
I agree. For me it didn’t take more than a fraction of a second. Like it didn’t concerning the idiot your populace voted two times in row, and who enjoys the role right now. I don’t think shame is the right word. Fear is perhaps more accurate. Fear, since all those nukes are in a country full of brain-dead morons.
But I’m glad to see that years of thinking allow you to understand even the most simple basic truths. Yes, Bill Clinton was - like most U.S. presidents - an “unspeakingly shameless and immoral individual”. I guess it’s more or less a requirement for the job. Given the set of voters.
Now go back to your sauna, and think for - say - 10 more years. Maybe you will re-invent the wheel or something similarly useful. You don’t have to report here in the meantime.
Comment by Thomas — Sat, Feb 24th, 2007 @ 8:03 pm
Ã…Boy commented that
“There’s a difference between Finnish immigrants abroad and some other immigrants in Finland: The Finns do not tend to impose their views, values and ideals on the host culture. Finns tend to think that “when in Rome, do as the Romans do†and that’s what they expect from other nationalities in Finland as well.” is not true at all.
I know few finnish families living in india, who converted store room outside their rented house into wooden sauna illegally and were seen running around the house naked ( all adult both boys and gals ) until neighbours complained and police asked them to stop it.
Comment by Alien — Sat, Feb 24th, 2007 @ 9:10 pm
I find that most finnish who are dislike foreigners are people who have not travelled. I guess, there are more finnish living outside finland than foreigners living in Finland. There are tons of finnish living in china, thailand, India these days. Funny thing is, finnish who have been living abroad do not seem to like to return to their ” Mother Land”.
Comment by Alien — Sat, Feb 24th, 2007 @ 9:14 pm
“…converted store room outside their rented house into wooden sauna illegally and were seen running around the house naked”
Those bastards
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Sat, Feb 24th, 2007 @ 9:18 pm
Those finns who dislike foreigners are always happy to eat kabab, chinese and indians food though.. hehe.. poor people, they do not have anythng of their own..
Comment by Alien — Sat, Feb 24th, 2007 @ 9:31 pm
Anyway, even if Finland opens its door completely to immigrants, i see very few “quality” foreigners calling this place home.
Comment by Alien — Sat, Feb 24th, 2007 @ 9:35 pm
Yes, give us the food and get the fcuk out. We do have this HK Blue Vegetable though, I don’t think any othre country has anything quite like it.
Comment by mh — Sat, Feb 24th, 2007 @ 10:21 pm
Pave, sure decomposing takes longer and also keeps the carbon longer, but if you burn 1m3 of wood in same time as your forest grows that 1m3, your account is balanced. It takes a certain amount of carbon dioxide to grow that 1m3 of wood and the same amount is released, when you burn that 1m3. Carbon in trees is a result of photosynthesis and it’s main ingredients are carbon dioxide and water.
I think Winter should still wait with the chainsaw. There are other problems, such as erosion, if the forests are turned into fields in big scale.
“were seen running around the house naked ( all adult both boys and gals ) until neighbours complained and police asked them to stop it.”
Heh, I bet the finns raised a terrible havoc about the local intolerance against their culture and what they do in the privacy of their rented yard. The Indian minority ombudsman lectured the police and the letter-to-the-editor section of the local newspaper was filled with angry letters about how uncivilized and Juntti-Einari pseudonazis their neighbours were.
Or did the finns just keep quiet and straightened up to local standards?
Comment by Antti (the redneck one) — Sat, Feb 24th, 2007 @ 10:24 pm
…besides, we consider everybody not attending sauna in the saturdays dirty, no matter how many showers they take during the week or whether their tax money pays our welfare cheque.
Comment by Antti (the redneck one) — Sat, Feb 24th, 2007 @ 10:44 pm
Alien:
I find that most finnish who are dislike foreigners are people who have not travelled.
Not much xenophobia in Finland, then.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Sat, Feb 24th, 2007 @ 11:32 pm
“Unlike the current one, who participated “bravely†in the Vietnam war, by drinking and flying aeroplanes in Texas.”
Yes, he flew a jet fighter. The same type that killed many of its pilots. Anyone know what jets Al Gore, or Clinton flew?
By the way drinking is a tradition with pilots, it how you think less of that narrow miss with a solid object. You have to remember your Physics, no two objects can occupy the same space at the same time.
Comment by winter — Sun, Feb 25th, 2007 @ 5:39 am
rising tendency of Finn gal marrying beach boys from Northern Africa, and finn guys marrying asian gals.; like it or not, this place will be fully multicutural in next decade… and also, most of the “foreign hating” old farts would be died by then. hehe.. so finland best multiculutre place to live by 2017 ? Anyone to bet ?
Comment by Alien — Sun, Feb 25th, 2007 @ 8:51 am
rising tendency of Finn gal marrying beach boys from Northern Africa, and finn guys marrying asian gals.
I’d like a law that made it impossible to import mail order brides unless you earned at least x amount of money. After all, we don’t need more freeloaders in this country.
Do you think the True Finns would back such a proposal?
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Sun, Feb 25th, 2007 @ 12:28 pm
“I’d like a law that made it impossible to import mail order brides unless you earned at least x amount of money. After all, we don’t need more freeloaders in this country.”
I go to school with a mail-order bride, it seems like a win-win situation for her and her man. A bit old fashioned, but whats the problem with it?
Comment by Anonymous — Sun, Feb 25th, 2007 @ 9:38 pm
“A bit old fashioned, but whats the problem with it?”
I think he means it’ll cost tax payers money if the guy can’t support her. Otherwise, I don’t see a problem with it either.
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Sun, Feb 25th, 2007 @ 10:51 pm
I think he means it’ll cost tax payers money if the guy can’t support her. Otherwise, I don’t see a problem with it either.
Sigh, I suppose I should decorate my posts with dozens of smileys. So far I’ve been led to believe that the majority of the readership does not constitute of teenage girls.
The whole point of my post was a poke at the True Finns, who have an anti-immigrant agenda but whose constituency represents the part of the population most likely to be into the mail order bride thing. (Can you spell peräkammarinpoika?)
That railroad track thick enough for everyone?
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Mon, Feb 26th, 2007 @ 1:32 am
I think the most accurate stereotype of a True Finns voter is a senior citizen eking out on a small pension in the countryside, a smalltown, or in East Helsinki. The type of voter who was the core of Veikko Vennamo’s constituency.
Like it or not, the fundamental popularity of the True Finns have gone up despite Halme causing a major fluctuation. Several trends of the past decade and a half are not much liked by a lot of people particularly in the lowest income groups.
Comment by Markku — Mon, Feb 26th, 2007 @ 3:13 pm
I think one of the problems for small parties gain credibility is the fact that the large parties who are in the government have full access to the resources of ministries and other government agencies to base their campaigns on. It is often the case that smaller parties such as the True Finns or the Greens have new ideas, which they have difficulty developing into credible policy options partly owing to a lack of experts at their disposal.
This is why the American think tank culture could do Finland a lot of good. The USA, there are a lot of think tanks representing every conceivable political ideology with the resources to do studies and analyses of their own.
Comment by Markku — Mon, Feb 26th, 2007 @ 3:24 pm
Whereas I of course agree that immigrants should adapt to the country they live in (otherwise what’s the point?), I believe that the population of said country in the case of Finland does not want to accept the fact that there may be people with different looks living there, even if they behave the same way as the Finns.
If I ever told you about the kind of stares I was used to when I lived in Tapiola…
Comment by ChivaCongelado — Mon, Feb 26th, 2007 @ 5:22 pm
#78 Sorry to hear about the “stares.” Maybe they’re not always meant in a negative way. I like to think that people are just curious in many cases.
I have to disagree with your point that immigrants need to “adapt.” I for one, have no problem with minority groups living within Finland according to their own culture. And if they choose to self-segregate, then that’s fine too. Of course, it works best if they are able to support themselves. So, a certain amount of adaptiveness is probably required—e.g. language communication; even english is ok by me.
But the problem occurs when we start to feel that there are too many of *you* and too few of *us*. Then our idea of how we’d like Finland to be, is compromised. And, in the end, that might not help minority groups such as yours either because you’ll experience the resentment—especially from the lower strata of society.
As I’ve always stated, a small amount of immigration should be possible here. I do think it benefits us to have a certain amount of outside influence.
Comment by Kristian (in Espoo) — Mon, Feb 26th, 2007 @ 6:30 pm
Funnily enough, I didn’t notice those stares at all anymore until I moved to another country and then visited Finland. After 6 years, I think I can distinguish the difference between curiosity and hostility. Actually what upset me the most was when people would stare at my fiancée instead. However, I still miss Finland.
I agree with the need of immigrant minorities to keep their culture, but I still believe they should adapt to their host society (and many of them do, by the way).
I cannot comment on the “right” amount of foreigners since I’m not a native. I’d rather let us be if we work and pay taxes like everybody else.
Comment by ChivaCongelado — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 12:11 am
If I ever told you about the kind of stares I was used to when I lived in Tapiola…
You needed to get out of Espoo and within civilisation.
Oh boy if hfb happens to read this.
Comment by Freeridin' Franklin — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 9:02 am
My solution for staring is to start picking my nose. It always works. Try it!
Comment by Unit — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 11:31 am
“In the US, the requirements are to have two legs and the ability to walk.” and the most improtant part is to speak Spanish. Cause if you spoke Finnish the U.S.A. would give you a lot of problems. And if you are Mexican the Bank of America will give you a bank card with out a Social Security number so one wouldn’t have to pay taxes. I’d like to see a Finn try that in the States let alone and American try it. Americans get put in Jail all the time for evading their taxes, while SOME Mexicans wipe there ass on the American flag! Illegal immigration rapes the nation it is happening to.
Comment by US Northwest guy — Tue, Feb 27th, 2007 @ 12:13 pm
Maybe it is this:
A man from another country having traditional view on partnership, e.g. he carrying the heavy responsibility of serving the family with finances for a good life, while the woman takes care of other responsibilities, JUST DOES NOT WANT A FEMINIST WESTERN WOMAN IN THE HOUSE…. he will want a traditional woman with whom there will be no culture clashes, whom he will understand and support.
(It can be argued the point is that finnish women say they are “strong and independent”, when it suits them. Ohhh.. freedom.. When it suits them, though, the man has to take the traditional roles, and be a man.)
Violence etc in the house, is an issue in different cultured backgrounds. Btw, violence is not only done towards women.
Please dont tell me finnish men don’t beat up their wives, finnish wives dont beat up their men, or go on with emotional assault.
Once again we have (I come from a civilized country, keeping my critical eye), “we are civilized, all the rest is s**t…”
You dont want immigrants, that’s fine.
I am an immigrant and I wonder how you can be so tolerant against finns sitting on their arse ’cause the benefits the get from doing s**t outweighs any kind of work the could find… oooops… any kind of work they see worthy for them.
Comment by ze german — Wed, Feb 28th, 2007 @ 12:44 pm
hello hi honey
Comment by Macro bako — Fri, May 11th, 2007 @ 5:43 am
52 and 53.
I think we need to start moving toward bilateral agreements on immigration particularly as regards Finland and North America. Obviously, the Finns have since the 70’s and 80’s done nothing other than admit people from virtually everywhere else but North American and Australia… and now the problems. Studies even revealed that that immigrants to Norway, Sweden and Finland from North America and Australia had little unemployment and when the going got tough, they started businesses and innovated. But Finland, Sweden and Norway wanted none of it and since the 1970’s had all but cut off western
immigration.
We can argue all we want about this, but in the end “suomalainen ei usko ennen kuin näkee”. The Finnish government just needs to get a memo saying “As long as the immigration bureaucracy and discrimination in jobs continues, your quota is zero, period! When you can show improvement, we’ll start lifting the quota for Finns.” Canada and the US should start with the university sector, international corporations and the media as far as phasing out the renewing of visas as these are sectors where Finland discriminates the most against westerners (and likely others).
But perhaps the worst problem here is that most Canadians and Americans hardly know anything about countries such as Finland, Norway and Sweden… and this has been the only saving grace for these countries in the question of immigration. But times have changed and Canada as well as the US are going to start taking a closer look at reciprocity issues. If Finland, Norway and Sweden can’t cut the mustard, its Finnish, Norwegian and Swedish asses back to Santa Clause Land… no discussion. And I hardly think that there will be as many North Americans suffering from this as there will be Finns and Scandinavians.
So Kristian, maybe the lawsuit solution for Finnish exlusionism is a good alternative to having Finns completely wear out their welcome in other countries due to exchange of information about bad experiences in an ever-shrinking world?
Comment by Sebu — Fri, May 18th, 2007 @ 10:47 pm