Actually, there are several distinguished foreign historians that have specialized in Finnish history (Anthony Upton and David Kirby come to mind, but there are others as well). Also much valuable work was done exactly about the Finnish war time history especially earlier when the subject was too touchy for a balanced domestic research and debate. The basic requirement though for any serious primary research is not fluency in English, but in Finnish, Swedish and preferrably also in Russian which rather does limit the playing field…

Interesting. Do they cover the “Human Shields for Iran”, Vietnam war you all are in? You all know, the support you give thugs and killers, so they can take over a country from an elected government.

Or your 6 months as supreme ruler of the world, where 600 000 in Darfur died on your watch?

Or do they sweep the real stupid mistakes under the rug?

Of course Helsingin Sanomat hates the book. Finnish kids are taught three things by the public school system: 1) Finland actually WON the continuation war, 2) Finland never fought alongside the nazis, and 3) There were no Finnish consentration camps. As we know, these all are lies.

Now, a foreigner (and an evil American capitalist at that!) writes a book presenting things as they really were. No wonder Finnish people, brainwashed by the government, get upset. Move along people, nothing wrong in the welfare state!

I think I heard Jason Lavery speaking Finnish when he was here for his history course he gives every summer.

#3

Oh the great idiot has spoken. Do not bother with the truth as the great idiot has substituted it with his own

off-top
http://www.idiocentrism.com/squib.finn2.htm

“…Finland actually WON the continuation war…”

Heh, when I began school in the 70′s, there was some experimental marxist history courses taught at some progressive schools, according to which the whole damn war was our fault, beginning from the Mainila shots.

Any idiot can see we lost Carelia, but on the other hand, Soviet Union did not reach it’s objective, which was red flag over the Senate square and few tens of thousands finns deported or shot in the neck.

And how exactly “Helsingin Sanomat hates the book?” You can’t criticize a book without hating it? Wow. The review was actually overall quite positive.

..and few tens of thousands finns deported or shot in the neck.

Had Sovie Union actually occupied Finland the final amount of dead/relocated finns might’ve been counted in hundreds of thousand, or even in millions. Latvia lost about 40% of its population during WW2 (and immedietly after it) mainly because of Stalin’s policy of “replacing” the original ethnicities in the conquered lands with russians. And as it turns out he also had the plans ready for relocation of finns to “work camps” in Siberia.

No one ever wins in a war. But it is certainly true that the Soviet Union, a massively military superior land, failed to meet its objectives against Finland. So therefore, it is hard to say that Finland “lost”. Especially in the context of what happened to some other countries in the aftermarth of the second world war period (Estonia comes to mind as but one example of many).

I actually think that overall Helsingin Sanomats review is rather more positive than negative. It is quite right to point out that it has a few minor errors. But it does say they are minor after all in when it does that.

Phil,

“A jab” indeed.. I think Sihvola gives the book a comparatively positive review. You have to remember the reviewer is, in addition to being “the Director of the Helsinki Collegium for Advanced Studies”, a professor and a docent of history, in the University of Jyväskylä and the University of Helsinki, respectively. A heavy duty historian, in other words. If anything, he seems to give Lavery some leeway because of him not being Finnish.

The HS reviews of historical studies are, as a rule, in my view quite thorough and critical. It would not surprising, that a Finnish writer with the same deficiencies and mistakes in his book would receive a substantially more critical review from Sihvola.

I agree only limited groups could ever win or profit on war.

I don’t by any means approve what has happened, but I prefer to look at the facts. A lot of people died on both sides. Finland has protected its independence, Soviet army has learned a lot during Winter war as well – especially re-evaluated operations in winter conditions, which in turn helped to fight Nazis later. One important goal for USSR was to move border away from St.Petersburg, that was achieved as well.

As for new Baltic states – I have much more respect for Finland and Finns, than for people who install monuments for SS and dig out graves.

Those of you who are not familiar with SS, can check wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schutzstaffel and this page as well.

Here is Babiy Jar, Kiev http://community.livejournal.com/interesniy_kiev/935246.html
I just want you to see that a war has many faces.

I think the Finnish “opinion” of “who won the war” is well put in Väinö Linna’s “The Unknown Soldier”

The great Union of Soviet Socialist Republics won, and little Finland came in a good second

“A lot of people died on both sides.”

Indeed. But some people, civilian people, women and children and old people, were systematically and mercilessly butchered by the aggressor. Until recently it hasn’t even been allowed to be publicly discussed in fear of the age old aggressors reactions. Fortunately we these days begin to have the freedom to deal with these things openly.

From HS:

“Speaking of the mass killings of Finnish civilians by enemy forces has been forbidden, and the subject is not easy to grasp or to deal with – neither the facts of what happened nor the cover-up that followed.

Images of murdered civilians laid out on the grass and of bodies heaped on the back of trucks bring to mind the pictures seen in the media of mass killings of civilians in trouble-spots around the world. From these partisan pictures it is possible to see that Finland has not been immune: these things really happened here sixty years ago.”

(Source: http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Too+awful+an+image+of+war/1135223124092)

Germany has slowly started to come to terms with its wartime past. I just wonder when Russia will start a similar process. By the looks of it it won’t be happening any time soon though.

Phil, Fantastic news that he is coming on Radio Free Finland. Very much looking forward to it. I am most interested in questions along these lines:

Chapter 2 – Finland’s Origins: Prehistoric and Historic
Unlike their larger neighbors, the Swedes and Russians, Finns cannot build a national identity based on hundreds of years of visibility as an independent polity on the map of Europe. The lack of a long visible past has provided fertile ground for the creation of fanciful myths about the Finns’ prehistoric origins. This chapter replaces widespread myths with rigorous research drawn from archaeology, linguistics, and genetics.

Specifically, where on earth did the Finns come from? The few Finns I’ve met say “The Urals”, but that doesn’t answer it for me. Are there artifacts of their old civilization there? Anyway, looking forward to it.
Jeff

The pictures of finnish children gunned down and/or stabbed to death by russian partisans are almost unbearable. One caption says:

“July 1942: The bodies of civilians killed by Soviet partisans have been laid out on the grass in the village of Seitajärvi in Finnish Lapland. Discussion of the mass murders of Finnish civilians has been largely off-limits. During the war itself, the authorities even went so far as to order those who knew of the cross-border attacks on Finnish villages to keep their silence.”

This is the first that I had heard of Soviet autrocities against Finnish civilians, although I have to say that my mother lived in Karalia (Sortavala), and was evacuated near the end of the Continuation war, and there are some things that she has never been able to talk about from that time period.

“Specifically, where on earth did the Finns come from? The few Finns I’ve met say “The Urals”, but that doesn’t answer it for me.”

If I remember correctly, the language and the people took a little bit different routes. The “protofinnish” came here with a rather small population of so-called “hammer-axe” culture about 2000 years ago. The country was already inhabited by various groups of Sami, Germanic etc. people, who adopted the language of this little newcomers group for some strange reason.

The language is certainly uralic and the ancient finnish culture has many things in common with the cultures of the small relative nations now living in Russia.

Jeff: “Specifically, where on earth did the Finns come from?”

Well, the Urals, as you mentioned. Other places include Ingria, nothern Germany, Somalia……

#12
As for new Baltic states

What “new” Baltic states? You mean states that got independence in the Russian Revolution, got sold to Stalin with the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact just like Finland, got invaded and annexed in 1940 by Stalin and his sycophants, and then tried to nmake best of it being run over by Germans and again by the USSR?

I have much more respect for the Estonians who fought against all odds to try keep their independence.

#15 Specifically, where on earth did the Finns come from?

Well, nowhere, we were here all the time. That is as “Finns” in the three tribes were “formed” as nations in the year 1000 or so as to what they are now, Savonians for example as a tribe are a “later invention” as the even later Ingrians… The language is approximately from the 1200′s, but still Agricola used letters to show sounds hence dissapeared, so it is also a living language.

So “Finns” did not just come from somewhere. We formed to what we are here.

I have much more respect for the Estonians who fought against all odds to try keep their independence.

More respect than towards who?

The language is approximately from the 1200’s

You mean the “modern” version of it? At least according to the trusted old Wikipedia “the Baltic Finnic languages separated around the 1st century (around years 1-100, that is):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_language#History

#15 “Specifically, where on earth did the Finns come from?”

Ultimately, from Africa, just like everyone else.

NO. 12. Alex:

I have more respect for the Baltic peoples that suffered under the Soviet Union, and wish to remove traces of that evil empire from their independent countries than Russians who seem to be in denial about the extent of the horror that the Soviet Union represented, and seek to bully the Balts once again.

Peter, like I have tried to say earlier, a coin has two sides. Then again, I speak for myself and am not trying to represent a country, a nation, or a group of people. Just merely pointing out that opinions could differ.

But you are right, like I have commented here long ago, there are plans of new invasion into baltic states – it’s openly discussed in Moscow. After that Russia takes back Poland and DDR. I think it’s gonna happen pretty soon, before 2008 elections in Russia, because russians are so thirsty for blood of christian babies.

Well, it just seems very difficult for the Russians to admit that their truly heroic struggle against an awful attack did really also contain many very dark aspects. Being led by Stalin, how could it not? The Baltic countries were not liberated, they were raped etc. etc. The only fascistic tones that can be heard in our neighbouring countries these days eminate solely from Russia, were the political elite (overwhelmingly recruited from present and former security organs) is desperately trying to find an ever lasting supply of external enemies to keep attention away from their anti-democratic misrule. About my take on one these “fascist” small countries in “near abroad” below:

http://stockholmslender.blogspot.com/2006/10/eesti-ajaloost.html

Just merely pointing out that opinions could differ.

There are opinions, everyone has one. Then there are facts. The facts are that Soviet Union invaded the Baltic States and occupied them and tried to do the same with Finland as well. The facts are that Soviet troops butchered finnish civilians near the finnish-russian border. The facts are that hundreds of thousands of baltics suffered under the Soviet oppression. Those are the undeniable facts. Soviet Union was just as much a fascist state as Nazi Germany.

Now, opinions formed about the atrocities Soviet Union commited of course vary. In Russia the atrocities simply do not exist. Russians have been taught that they were in a a Great Patriotic War, liberating their neighbouring peoples. Obvious propaganda. Ask any baltic or finn.

Russians might not be baby-eaters (although they did eat their horses, and eachother, when they were fighting against finns and ran out of food) but even today Russias ruling elite refuses to discuss Soviet Unions war crimes and atrocities. The average Russian doesn’t really even know what happened. And as strong nationalism is on the rise in Russia I bet they’ll not hear about it anytime soon.

There’s this program going on in YLE, “Kamrat” or something like that where a finnish woman is travelling in Russia and trying to show finns that russians are not that different or that bad. But I think she did a disservice to her program when she was interviewing a russian research who said something like “it’s not wise to call Russia an angry old bear because if you do, Russia just might turn into one”. I think it goes to show how “ready” russians are to face the facts about their past.

Åboy—I agree. I’ve had Russian colleagues who support your view about how average Russians aren’t aware of many things of the past and present. My colleagues have lived outside of Russia for a long time, so their views are perhaps more balanced.

I only hope that more Russians learn english so they can become part of such discussions (then again, we could all learn Russian…. ). In any case, even America which commits the most atrocities in present-day, has no shortage of people who are willing to speak-out against its actions. I hope Russians will do the same.

http://aimringtones.info/replica-watches/jacob-and-co-replica-watch.php